subtlety

[placid crown]

coming back on this, is there a world where you play perforated veins instead of inev ?

[vale pine]

no

PV is a fairly weak trait

[placid crown]

alright

[vale pine]

only reason you pick it

is to get better pathing

tho if you look at #1065728795455266888, maybe there is more gains to be found for specific talent setups

[alpine wraith]

PV was decent when sepsis was a thing

oh and now with ER reverb

[noble patio]

funneling the extra combo points into SecT or Eviscs could be worth. Just triggers me to see the empty space on my WA

[alpine wraith]

but that one will get thanos snapped in some hours

hit some juicy 5.2 mil crits

RIP in peppers

[vale pine]

i actually don't mind it as much

[alpine wraith]

same er and sepsis were whatever for sub

[vale pine]

kinda feel bad for losin dust

[alpine wraith]

they never expanded on the cool things

yea dust was a cool thing to have

pvp curse

for sure

[sacred yarrow]

because of the gameplay loop?

[noble patio]

I actually don't mind losing dust, puts more... stability to the gameplay for me

[sacred yarrow]

define stability there

[vale pine]

i think the removal does not achive the goal

basically the idea was that sub gets easier with the change

because you don't need to think about cdr from vanish

and thats absolutely correct

but

the extra symbols charges allow for more dynamic use of symbols of death

and symbols was up till now

damn easy to use

fire and forget

[noble patio]

more time spent at 70% power, rather than going 100-50-100-50, so to say. that's how it feels to me at least.

[fallow nimbus]

Auto sod on dance with added full duration from real sod would be easier

[vale pine]

now with 11.0.5 you need to think about symbol use and secret technique use a lot more

and its not easier, but i would argue more difficult to play

[fallow nimbus]

Would be hilarious if a new sod sheet pops up

[alpine wraith]

no need you dont get cdr on it

you basically play first 1:30 like 1 way

[sacred yarrow]

difficult gameplay without the damage payoff

[alpine wraith]

then afterwards the struggle

[fallow nimbus]

Yes but timed mechanics could make you do something s bit sooner or later

[vale pine]

the problem is

you can have symbols charges ready

and now use it

it becomes more complicated because more conditions appear

[alpine wraith]

you can move ONE SoD charge around as you want

in the whole fight

or you can move more depending on timers

[fallow nimbus]

As long as atleast 1 charge is recharching you can do all you want without capping sod and dance

[vale pine]

exactly

[noble patio]

This might be a stupid idea, but what about just linking symbols to secret tech without dance? since they're so inherently tied via the set bonusses?

[alpine wraith]

some bosses like rasha nan ky veza ovi nax or even court benefit from moving SoD around

[noble patio]

as in, make sure you have a symbols charge for every sec tech

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why fuu said the finesse now is on sec tech

you kinda want to use it on cd

but you want to have it off cd with real dances or big cds

so have to be careful when sending it on dry SoD or no sod/dance

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

you also have to skip sod sometimes

[fallow nimbus]

It's much more complex than dust ever was

[alpine wraith]

the easy thing to do is know that when CB comes you want dance+sod

everywhere else is cdr things

and you have 1 joker SoD

on the whole fight

it is tho

[vestal escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[alpine wraith]

to have the most performance possible in a given timeframe with mechanics on a boss

it is harder than dust

[fallow nimbus]

Imagine sub gets overbuffed in 11.1 and the fotm rogues have to play the new mess

[noble patio]

welp.....

i'm gonna be told to reroll...

[alpine wraith]

kek

just get big crits

[vestal escarp]

Hope nobody is dethronig sin anytime soon

[alpine wraith]

rng some big parses

enha does around 300k dps more than sin now

we are fine

[sacred yarrow]

why do they want to keep subtlety with complicated minigames when other classes faceroll

[alpine wraith]

wonder how many nerfs it'll get

[noble patio]

i'm already getting outclassed by the other rogue in my guild, this'll be an interesting patch..

[merry agate]

They probably never sat down and played it for themselves

[placid crown]

Is it still worth at 11.0.5 to have a 25sec cd SoD instead of a 30sec cd ?

[alpine wraith]

it is still worth

over a 5 min fight you get 2 or 3 extra casts

[fallow nimbus]

I wonder how competitive it is if we just use cb as a guideline with an occasional sod+dance here and there or even just at the end of the boss

[alpine wraith]

that one is not hard to parse

problem is it would not use the joker SoD

so likely if you want to do that one would need to play a 1 death perception build

because remember we get 2 dances in between cds only once we can get 3 dances in between

[merry agate]

I've seen people talking about it but are we really sending buttass naked dry sectecs in some cases?

[vale pine]

my point is not that its bad, but confusing

[alpine wraith]

people will misplay it more than not

[fallow nimbus]

It's more user unfriendly

If you know what you are doing then it's probably fine but inexperienced people will suffer even more

[alpine wraith]

i mean dust had the same problem at the end of fights

like boss TTD

[noble patio]

[alpine wraith]

is 1 min

you have vanish in 20 secs

but you just used cds or they are close but not kinda 1 min

TIME IS TICKING

[fallow nimbus]

But that was just "can you pull cds with vanish?"

[alpine wraith]

it is just a math problem

there is a correct answer

[fallow nimbus]

If no then vanish for sod, sectec and cb

[alpine wraith]

but many people will do it wrong

best bet is see if you can get flag to 30 secs at least

then dance use sec tech and CB if possible then vanish flag and do a second dance

then boss dies

now that part is a bit easier

but now you can mess up along the road and use cds a bit later and later

on those dry stages

[nimble burrow]

Brothers may i ask since SB and Flag are on same CD, is it possible to set a sequance macro for it?

[fallow nimbus]

No

Yes

Maybe

[nimble burrow]

just like Same button but i can Flag(Button A) > Rupture > Tech > Blade(Button A)

[tribal blade]

don't think so because iirc we're casting blades after sectec during dance

so it's quite a few globals between the 2

[nimble burrow]

ty brothers

[fallow nimbus]

A castsequence works but you can't spam the button

[tribal blade]

i don't know much about sequence macros though so i might be wrong

[placid crown]

why no ?

[fallow nimbus]

Blades is off gcd

[placid crown]

ah yeye

[fallow nimbus]

So you cast flag and macro switches to blades instantly

[tribal blade]

flag>rupture>dance+symbols>strike>sectec>blades

[fallow nimbus]

That's sequence able

[tribal blade]

oh is that how that works

i dunno seems simpler to just keep both on seperate binds

[fallow nimbus]

1 press jumps to next stage

[brave escarp]

Wait... Why use blades after sectech? Is that a patch thing??

[vale pine]

premediation

[brave escarp]

Oh so now we get premed?

[fallow nimbus]

In a new macro world it would be possible to use more off gcd at the same stage with 1 click

[vale pine]

yes, we want to use the premed proc, blades gives the same benefits

[brave escarp]

that will be so strange to get used to

thanks

[noble patio]

i always forget that dance counts as entering stealth

[placid crown]

wait

Blades give +20% shadow damages and you dont want them for sectec ?

[brave escarp]

isnt sectech only physical tho?

ah my bad i got you

[haughty mural]

sectec does not work with blades

also premed

[vale pine]

the shadow clone attacks don't get benefits from blades

so its whatever

[haughty mural]

and also blades less duration than flag

[vale pine]

yep

thats kinda the

[haughty mural]

yea

still dont understand that choice man

[tribal blade]

they didn't fully think it through

[vale pine]

we discussed it in here

[tribal blade]

on how it actually impacts the spec

[vale pine]

its just same uptime as before

adjusted to the cooldown length

[placid crown]

if you take premed, what do you remove ? Planned Execution ?

[haughty mural]

yes thats clear

[vale pine]

they didn't think it had gameplay impact

or just thought to throw it at us

and we will figure it out

[haughty mural]

like they always do

throw something at us

which is not 100% thought through

[tribal blade]

i think it was most likely "oh ok taking blades from 2>1.5 min, stands to reason we need to nerf the duraton to keep it balanced"

[noble patio]

yeah

[delicate ridge]

No reason they cant just bump it back to 20 secs for gameplay feeling good purposes balancing can always be done with % modifiers

[tribal blade]

sub wasn't exactly top tier dps before

[placid crown]

sounds not worth

[tribal blade]

so i don't see why blades can't just remain 20 sec duration

[haughty mural]

its not like the 20 seconds would make sub suddenly op

[tribal blade]

it also becomes this really weird situation where flag lasts 24 seconds and blades is only 16

[haughty mural]

PE is not as good as you might think

[haughty mural]

exactly

[alpine wraith]

it happens with a lot of things

[delicate ridge]

Yea obviously but if it did balancing can always be done indirectly with % modifiers which is why the thought of "we must nerf SB because we reduced its CD" makes 0 sense

Sblades becoming 24 sec would be nice

[alpine wraith]

blades working on nimble or sec tech working with singular focus or blades

would also not break the bank

but here weeeeee are

[haughty mural]

based and true

[noble patio]

it's like a overall 1% crit or something like that

[alpine wraith]

i await the day they finally murder sec tech working as 3 hits and shadowed finishers

2 pieces of shite that are bugged beyond reason every patch

when it is as easy as make it 1 hit

[delicate ridge]

I would love them to rebuild the ability from the ground up yes

[alpine wraith]

same as coup being 6 hits

[placid crown]

Well ShadowFocus+Premed+PlannedExecution feels better than SwiftDeath. Or wondering what is the % overall damg diff between the 2

[alpine wraith]

i mean i would not even mind if you did the animation and it was a big boom 1 sec after

[delicate ridge]

pretty sure it currently works off of pet coding which creates a fuck tonne of bugs

[alpine wraith]

something like barrage from mage

it just works

EVERY TIME

with everything it has to

[delicate ridge]

I remember on razzy all the pet related things not being recorded on logs due to distance and sectech was included in that lol

[alpine wraith]

you press the button

it does dmg

that still happens on bloodbound

remember to always log yourself

oh and in ansurek

[haughty mural]

it is mage tho

we cant compare to them

[delicate ridge]

also god I hate goremaws position in the tree

id like a full ass reshuffle to move it under rotten make rotten 2pt etc

make goremwas this giga cp gen that you want to buff

[noble patio]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38#sample=7&difficulty=1

LFR logs.. 1800 sub parses.

[delicate ridge]

it should however stay a mostly niche build as I think the finisher focused build should always be ahead/priority

[vale pine]

least played spec in game, so ye

[placid crown]

Can you confirm that with the new talent supercharger, after SoD, sectec AND first evis will hit like 10cb ?

[brave escarp]

So now in the opener and CDs we always use sectech first, regardles of trickster vs deathstalker? and in the other dances we use it second as deathstalker?
Also how do we spread symbols and shadowdance? do we do 2 dances at the beginning or? Im confused

[vale pine]

yes

you always use secret first in dance now

[brave escarp]

even if blades is nto up?

[vale pine]

e.g. end dance

you won't have secret up first gcd

so you use it later

and you can use symbols before it comes up

so it won't be always first

[brave escarp]

Weeklies, farming bloodfang and other new sets, or training new muscle memories on the dummy. so much to do so little time

[sick jackal]

All optional other than dummy

Time to hit the dummy for 10 hours

[brave escarp]

10 hr, or pressing N and a mouse click with 5sec cast

[nimble burrow]

this point is a little bit interesting, should we just flag then burst will make it faster in burst?

[brave escarp]

Wait, so now we use Vanish for Premed in the opener?

[nimble burrow]

oh i see

[placid crown]

i'll use shadowmeld too

[nimble burrow]

[alpine wraith]

shadowmeld works in m+ too yes

but not on bosses

[placid crown]

it does not proc the premed in raid ?

[alpine wraith]

nope

[placid crown]

arff

[alpine wraith]

you need to enter stealth

[lilac stag]

not real real stealth in raid

[placid crown]

but vanish procs premade ?

[lilac stag]

Vanish puts you into stealth

[vale pine]

yes

[alpine wraith]

yes you have 3 secs of improved stealth

then real stealth

but not out of combat in raid fights

funny things eh

[placid crown]

still it's possible to shadowstrike after shadowmeld

profiting of Improved Ambush

[alpine wraith]

yea that is the use in raid

not much but also is guaranteed fw

if you are on a bad streak

[placid crown]

rng with shadowcraft may lead to get a full cb strike after the shadowmeld

[nimble burrow]

so the vanish before the burst is for the Premediation?

[brave escarp]

yes

[nimble burrow]

sry for just heading into Sub and know nothing

ic now

ty for answer!

[brave escarp]

Npnp

[placid crown]

@nimble burrow your screen is showing a tool existing to create dps rotations ?

or is it just a screen of a guide seen somewhere ?

[nimble burrow]

yea its the new guide from Fuu in wowhead

reading it

[placid crown]

oh yeah found it

[nimble burrow]

i just reading the guide everyday to learn how to play sub

[placid crown]

wait

how can you be sure that this strike will fill all cp ?

[alpine wraith]

premed

[placid crown]

but premed already used for the strike before

[vale pine]

it is to get rupture up

you essentially want to use rupture before cooldowns

and vanish gives you full cp from premed

so you can shortcut going into cooldowns

[tribal blade]

would it be not too big of a loss to delay flag a bit and flag right before you cast rupture in the opener

[vale pine]

vanish procs premed

[alpine wraith]

you want to get more flag stacks

[placid crown]

the premade proced by vanish is used in the strike just after vanish, and consume with rupture

[alpine wraith]

remember first evis and rupture have charger

so they give 20 stacks

basically you enter dance and cap flag almost with sec tech

or well actually you do because sec tech gives another 10

[tribal blade]

oh right because we have prepull tech now

[alpine wraith]

vote to add that part to the guide

MS paint

[brave escarp]

Shadowdance counts as stealth too

[alpine wraith]

for premed yes

[vale pine]

fun fact

[brave escarp]

Thats what he was wondering about

[placid crown]

really ?

[tribal blade]

basically any time you reenter stealth as sub you gain premed

[alpine wraith]

i companied hard for sepsis strikes to get premed

but got shot down always

[vale pine]

you would lose premed in subterfuge

[alpine wraith]

you still do

[vale pine]

yes

[placid crown]

i thought it was the opposite

[vale pine]

but we don't play subterfuge

so you would lose it, if you played it

[alpine wraith]

i will miss mounting in stealth

[placid crown]

i thought you would benefit of premade with dance only if you have subterfuge

[vale pine]

nope

[merry agate]

We got spared from using backstab in dance for dm Stack?

[alpine wraith]

for trickster yes

[vale pine]

we didn't do this for a while now

if you want to try it, feel free to play with the apl

currently we don't

[alpine wraith]

only if you play new first dance it was a win somewhat but still meh

[merry agate]

Was talked about it May come back again

[alpine wraith]

just ignore it

[vale pine]

possible, unlikely tho

[tribal blade]

mm so the finishing rules for dance now are 6+ cps

[vale pine]

yes

6+ alawys

[alpine wraith]

for trickster it was always kinda like that

[vale pine]

7 for DM

but we don't play deathstalker

[tribal blade]

wooo double striking in dance

[vale pine]

or well i wouldn't

[alpine wraith]

one good thing is now i will never have to suffer not being able to use coup evis on a charged point from ER

and having to strike again

[nimble burrow]

i get it now fuu, is it like, i proc Prem when using the first Sstrike, and should flag to stack it earlier, then after that we vanish for another Prem proc just for getting 14 CPS in almost like 5 Gcd?

[alpine wraith]

20 because of charger but yes

[vale pine]

you can

pre pull

symbols

just if you get ressed after a whipe

the 2 charges of supercharger stay active on fight start

unless this was fixed

which we don't know before patch is out

[nimble burrow]

ty Hacha

[placid crown]

How about the fact that with this rotation, your first sectec does not benefit of the full flag buff ?

[sly shore]

it didn't before

[placid crown]

missing like 30+% mastery

[alpine wraith]

it worked just some hours ago in the morning

[vale pine]

thats fine

[alpine wraith]

when ptr was up

unlikely they change it

[vale pine]

they fixed thrill seeker

if you didn't see

[alpine wraith]

which one was that

[vale pine]

shadowstep node

was not implemented

now is

[alpine wraith]

ah the outlaw thingie

[vale pine]

yes

its now thrill seeker for all 3

but gvies +1 charge for outlaw

[alpine wraith]

well ptr is up or down rn?

[tribal blade]

it was even worse before, this is quite a big jump up

[vale pine]

up

basically grapple has 2 charges now

[alpine wraith]

guess i will try when i can log in

[vale pine]

you had that + step befor the last update

so in theory

can grapple 4 times in a row now

[alpine wraith]

yea you can do crazy things

[vale pine]

because of the "can use again for free" node

[merry agate]

Implementing that literally last minute?

[alpine wraith]

that one is danger tho because you can use it two times super fast

[vale pine]

yes

[alpine wraith]

well NA still has some hours of maintenance

so any change they push is still fine

[vale pine]

i did not include it in the rogue wowhead post because it wasn't implemented

[alpine wraith]

hell fix more bugs!

[tribal blade]

"we don't FIX the bugs, we CREATE the bugs"- blizz

[alpine wraith]

yea nothing like letting shamans in ascendance proc tempest 4 times

what could go wrong

30m dps?

[placid crown]

Why is it impossible to use dance while dance is already activ ? With dust it is possible to do this for SoD for example

or is it possible to do it ?

[alpine wraith]

to bar people from messing up

[placid crown]

mhhh this sucks

[honest saddle]

there is no scenario

where dancing over a dance

is optimal or desired

[placid crown]

if your last gcd of dance is for a strike, then your evis coming right after will be without dance buff

so if you want opti this evis, you have to dance + evis

[honest saddle]

incorrect

you spam dance

using mouse wheel or something similar

[placid crown]

to dance+evis ?

[honest saddle]

you wouldnt evisc

you would have sec tech

or a coup

[placid crown]

whatever you would dance+sectec

on same gcd

[honest saddle]

correct.

[placid crown]

needing a special keybind and macro for it

[honest saddle]

no

you just spam dance

and evisc the second it goes

since its off gcd

or sec tech

or cheap shot

or whatever you want

[placid crown]

yes but

it means you will not press dance and evis at the right same time

so it's not "perfection"

[honest saddle]

then macro it

[placid crown]

yes

[honest saddle]

its less perfection

to dance over a dance

and waste dance uptime

and makes it less spammable

it would cause so many more problems

if you could dance over a dance

people would fucking hate it

[placid crown]

you couldnt waste uptime with the... i dont remember the name of it

when a buff is not ended

but cant lose

[honest saddle]

pandemic

[placid crown]

yea

[honest saddle]

it would cause more problems

because people would double hit it

or spam it

and double dance 1x

and fucking hate it

imagine rupture 1pt over a 5pt

you would hate it

everyone would

it's better this way

[placid crown]

the hing is that i dont have a keybind for dance alone è_é

[honest saddle]

you should.

you should have it on a mouse scroll wheel

[grand wyvern]

why on scroll wheel if i may ask?

[honest saddle]

because its the fastest possible spam key

you can scroll 5x

in the same time you press a key 1x

thus solving the very problem eco has

of missing a buffed sec tech or whatever when double dancing

and more to the mechanics of it

it allows you to hover left hand over evis or sectech

and dance into them

nearly instantly

since each hand is operating alone

[placid crown]

but isn't it because you have dance on scroll that you fear to double hit the dance ?

[honest saddle]

you cant double dance...

[placid crown]

i mean, you would fear to double dance if it was possible

[honest saddle]

sure

[placid crown]

like it's possible with SoD with dust

[honest saddle]

yeah

[placid crown]

so here's the thing

[honest saddle]

thats why most top rogues have a vanish key that wont let them vanish into a vanish if vanish is up

[placid crown]

if u dont use this kind of keybind, you can't fear the double dance if it was possible and if it was possible you would benefit of pandemic on dance

[honest saddle]

because you can double vanish

and there goes the entire parse

the same danger exists

regardless of key

or scroll

it happens with vanish

thats why every top rogue

has a macro

that wont let them vanish in stealth

[near rivet]

sometimes you want to vanish in stealth

unironically

[placid crown]

i may not understand... Just dont press vanish when you are in stealth ?

[honest saddle]

in pvp maybe

not in pve

[near rivet]

you are in dace and get rooted

[honest saddle]

sure

[near rivet]

you pop vanish

[honest saddle]

but you wouldnt do that as sub with dust

there goes your entire parse

youve already fucked up

it realistically just shouldnt happen

[near rivet]

dont you vanish in dance after sec tec?

as trick

[honest saddle]

thats not the same

dance isnt stealth

it lets you use stealth abilities

it isnt stealth

there are macros that wont let you vanish over a vanish

you can always vanish over a dance

same with stealthing over a stealth

so you dont accidentally unstealth

[placid crown]

it does not explain to me why blizz allows us to re-use SoD under SoD, but not Dance under Dance. If people can do shit with Dance under Dance, they can do shit with SoD under SoD

[hollow needle]

Morning, After this new posted rotation (Trickster) are we using our second dance charge after the opener immediately or waiting?

[near rivet]

back in BFA, you could use dance during dance

[honest saddle]

I think blizz knows that symbols gets used with dance 80% of the time

[near rivet]

prob ppl complained about it

[honest saddle]

and most people macro it together

and have a naked sod button they use occationaly

#showtooltip Stealth
/cast [nomodifier] !Stealth
/cancelaura [modifier] Stealth

[lilac stag]

It’s the design of the spell. It’s the same way you would rupture over a rupture, but that pandemics. It’s how each spell is designed to work differently depending on intent.

[honest saddle]

most people have this for stealth

and something similar for vanish

I do see his point with the sod

but I think its because sod uniquely isnt used alone

well rarely

[lilac stag]

I think it’s just confusion? Idk

[honest saddle]

its basically an extension of dance

[near rivet]

apl often uses it on its own

[honest saddle]

often you mean 1/4x

[near rivet]

like 3 seconds before dance coming off cd

not counting the naked one

[lilac stag]

you can macro, it’s recommended especially with .5 to have them separate as well

[honest saddle]

nobody plays that way

very very few people

[near rivet]

hello, im nobody

[honest saddle]

arent macroing symbols and dance

[tepid trellis]

Icd was added to dance a long long time ago

[lilac stag]

They are macroing and having them separate and using them accordingly

[honest saddle]

yeah, thats what almost everyone does

dance symbols macro with blades

and a naked symbols key

[tepid trellis]

I don’t have them macro’d at all

[lilac stag]

trash pandas don’t have macros.

[honest saddle]

some don't but 85% do.

[cloud rover]

Based

[placid crown]

and why not use strike even if we are full cp to always stay in a dance with (strike+evis)x4 ? I mean, it's not a waste until shadowcraft reach 14

[tepid trellis]

What?

[tender grotto]

[near rivet]

opener macro have a merit, but as of 11.0 APL you were using symbols on or two globals before dance/SB

[honest saddle]

you want cdr asap I think

[placid crown]

fair

[tepid trellis]

If you strike at full cp. then yes you are wasting at minimum 3 cps

[honest saddle]

before dust, like on fyrakk, we needed the immediate evisc, to open up sec tech as second finisher

[tepid trellis]

Sht has nothing to do with that

[near rivet]

fyrrak wasnt a dust fight?

i saw that excel

[honest saddle]

it was

but different

because you always sec tech 2nd

you didnt do the shit you do now

where your first finisher was sec tech

so you could fit 3

[tepid trellis]

We have not cared about when we entered dance for a good bit

Df s1 basically

[near rivet]

yea, i member

[vale pine]

s1/2 cared because of tfd

[tepid trellis]

Yep

[vale pine]

the icd on dance was initially 1 sec btw

they accidentally removed that with an update

[honest saddle]

double dancing would make me rip my monitor in half if it happened

parse gone

[vale pine]

and then added the "cooldown" to sucessive uses after to fix

[honest saddle]

jump off boss room reset

[vale pine]

as the original change was hard to revert

which is kinda funny

[alpine wraith]

RICARDO AGAIN

[tepid trellis]

It also broke in the start of DF

[vale pine]

funny thing is the icd is reduced by dust

so you can absolutely fuck up with dust

[honest saddle]

WHAT?

[vale pine]

but dust is gone

so

[tepid trellis]

Lockout was longer than our dance duration without the extended dance talent

[vale pine]

i think the initial implementation was better

but the current one is easier because you can not fuck up

[tepid trellis]

Just dance vanish dance if you are EU

[near rivet]

wait

do DM stacks reset when you dance mid dance?

[honest saddle]

I think the game really needs to function this way now. It used to be a world where you could overwrite a 5pt rupture with a 1pt

but combo points proc so randomly so often

for outlaw

and sub

that that kind of gameplay wont work now

server isnt even fast enough

to display cp as outlaw

you have to use a fucking audio que

to know you procced

[vale pine]

dace vanish dace to show respect

[hallow saddle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

btw. i will absolutely wait for the servers to be live

before updating the sheet

the ptr update had a lot of hotfixes

e.g. like i mentioned earlier finally implemented thrill seeker

(the talent node that gives outlaw 2x grapple)

[honest saddle]

you said thrill seeker

and I thought

what the fuck is that

[vale pine]

sry thrill seeking

thats the exact name

[honest saddle]

and it gives grapple 2?

[vale pine]

on outlaw yes

on sub just does the same as shadowstep

so no change for us

the talent wasn't there before todays ptr update

[merry agate]

Not this?

[vale pine]

haha sadly not

[vale pine]

^ but if you skilled step, you would get step and 2x grapple

what was funny

now fixed

[honest saddle]

is there a world where youd rather have 2 grapples

[vale pine]

so works as intended

[honest saddle]

instead of 2 shadow steps

probably

but seems rare

[vale pine]

i would love it as a choice node

[honest saddle]

yeah

[vale pine]

but also think it makes no sense

because you would add more buttons

something blizz currently tries to reduce

the 2x grapple is kinda cool tbh, i like it

you can do stupid stuff esp. on trickster

[near rivet]

supercharged shiv [*]

[vale pine]

with the reset/re-use node

[vale pine]

shiv isn't proccing supercharger on sub

so nope, false alarm

[near rivet]

yea, mourning it

was fun while it lasted (few hours in theory)

[honest saddle]

that would be fun

but also seems kinda degen

[near rivet]

sub is all about being degen

[honest saddle]

what was the shit we had

where when other people did shit

we got combo points

and you could just spam finishers

like 10 years ago

[alpine wraith]

you never could spam finishers

[merry agate]

Honour among thieves

[alpine wraith]

because HoT was when ambush and backstab costed 60 energy

so you stabbed once

then waited 3 secs

to fill cps

[honest saddle]

the most degen thing I remember are that

on combat

wayyyyy back in bc

there was a single target shiv build

you used on patchwerk etc

or ICC

somewhere in naxx or somewhere

there was a degen shiv build

because it always applied poisons

[merry agate]

Just realized 🤔 with shadowtechnique rework they basically gave us anticipation back 🤔

While were talking about old stuff

[honest saddle]

where is my prep

and symbiosis bear form

HMMMM

give it back

think it was iron fur we got or something

it was 40% armor or something wild

[merry agate]

1-time growl taunt effect when you Pressed it

[honest saddle]

I remember tanking Iron Quon mythic from like 8% to 0% evasion into symbiosis

into premediation

evasion into symbiosis

vanish kite

[merry agate]

Was symbiosis still in mop? Just remember using it one time in dragonsoul 🤔

[honest saddle]

yeah

ferals often didnt give it to us though

warlock gave them the ability to bleed from range

[merry agate]

Moonkin got cloak of shadows or somerhing funky

[nimble burrow]

so this is same kind of invisible talent?

[vale pine]

it is basically the shadowstep talent

just with a new symbol

but it gives grappling hook on outlaw

[nimble burrow]

yea maybe i describe wrongly, like it looks useless for sub and sin bc we already have 2 stack of shadowstep or even in changed before(the old one) we need to get it for 2 stacks

i lost everything on law sub is my only things i got

[dense slate]

im kinda confused with the wowhead guide. do i press finishers at 6 or 5 cp?

[alpine wraith]

6+ for trickster

[clever delta]

changes still not on wowhead_?

[grave parcel]

Anyone else sad for what they are about to do to sub

[alpine wraith]

it is what it is

[vale pine]

6

it should say 6+ everywhere

if i forgot to update something lmk

ohh, the very top maybe let me quick check

[grave parcel]

I wish they would communicate to us what the plan is for the spec and what the point of dumbing it down is. Feels like it’s going to be so watered down

[vale pine]

don't worry

11.0.5 isn't as dumped down as you think

symbols charges do add quite a bit of complexity

[grave parcel]

I do a little pve with friends but in pvp it’s a sad day with the amount of options they are taking away from us

[dense slate]

ye that part

[sick jackal]

the dungeon slice has a pvp dagger in main hand thats 639 not sure if it matter but might be a mistake

[vale pine]

updated it

[alpine wraith]

they might actually nerf finishers again in pvp

because you can get 8 charged finishers in opener

that is dangersauce in duel

[sick jackal]

i think they should just remove rogue in pvp

[grave parcel]

Yep it’s going to get gutted in pvp

And then do no damage

And have no utility

[alpine wraith]

yea likely another 20% snap to evis and sec tech

[grave parcel]

Yep

[alpine wraith]

meanwhile feral can bite me for 1.7m

that procs for free

[sick jackal]

dont forget the perma cyclone casts

[grave parcel]

Well it’s not fun for being to be 100-0 in a stunlock which I get

But that’s what’s gonna happen this week and then we get nerfed next week and now we’re doing the same damage we are now but without utility

[alpine wraith]

if an enemy has not defensives and he does not get peleed you should get them quite low or get them in danger

but yea profit this week

because it'll be the last of the season kekw

[grave parcel]

Yep

[sick jackal]

time to gear for sub then push 2.4k then

[grave parcel]

Dust was removed because of blitz I’m convinced

[sick jackal]

nah thats assuming blizz cares about pvp

[smoky crow]

is sub viable - ass has too much downtime

[grave parcel]

No reason to remove it in pve tho 99% of sub players enjoyed it

[honest saddle]

what talent in sub as DM allows us to skip ever pressing snd

[alpine wraith]

it is a class general talent

cut to the chase

[sick jackal]

i think when we said make the spec easier via removing cdr they understood dust and not shadowdance

[alpine wraith]

just not does not need snd active

you just evis

[honest saddle]

Cut to the Chase

never pressing snd again

what a day

what a time to be alive

[grave parcel]

Shadow dance is class identity to sub rogue tho that would never get removed

[honest saddle]

shadow dance, is sub rogue

thats the spec

without it

there is no sub rogue

[grave parcel]

I just hope they actually rework us and put some effort into it this time around

It just looks bland now

Also prune sepsis for what reason?

[sick jackal]

i am not saying remove dance ofc i meant like remove soothing darkness make dance either a 30 or a 20 sec cd

[grave parcel]

I see what your saying but again why are we so focused on making things “easy” for everyone

I think the game should have specs that are more difficult to play and understand for the people who enjoy more complex styles of gaming

[hazy breach]

Because the spell didnt make sense thematically and didnt interact with the rest of the kit

Good riddance

[sick jackal]

this i agree but the extend that sub is at atm is just too much

[grave parcel]

It was an option that was used as an option in other parts of the game

[sick jackal]

i enjoy complex gameplay thats why i mained sub for a long time

[grave parcel]

And now it’s gone completely replaced with nothing

[honest saddle]

sepsis made a lot of sense for assassination at one point

but not a lot of sense for sub

it should never have really been there

[hazy breach]

Yes and im 100% convinced thats better

[grave parcel]

It was insane in pvp

I know pvp isn’t for everyone which is fine it’s difficult for people to play

[honest saddle]

one extra cheap shot that is on dr is insane?

[grave parcel]

But sepsis wasn’t hurting anyone

Nah u could sepsis someone

Then use it as a gap closer with strike

Instead of wasting a shadow dance

Err step**

Or yes follow up a stun with a cheap instead of wasting a dance

[honest saddle]

welp, youve got coup now

enjoy

[honest saddle]

SARCASM

[grave parcel]

Coup?

[honest saddle]

its a gap closer that you have almost no control over

[grave parcel]

My point is there was no reason to remove the choice unless they were going to replace it

[honest saddle]

and gets you killed for no fucking reason

[tribal blade]

we can't possibly be having the argument about wanting sepsis

it's gone, thank god

thank christ

[honest saddle]

I think we should stop calling coup anything besides killing spree jr

[grave parcel]

I’m just saying why not give us something else

[hazy breach]

The gap closer thing was also a bug

[alpine wraith]

i talked a bit with scari about it

they had plans but as always

NO TIME

YAYAYAYAYA

[keen dome]

Time really is the greatest foe 😦

[grave parcel]

Had plenty of time for paladins tho

Even last minute changes for pallets and added abilities

[alpine wraith]

dont think realz said much about it apart from telling me nope on making it proc premed

[honest saddle]

well there are about 10x as many paladins as rogues

soooo

[alpine wraith]

would have saved it

[tribal blade]

we just wait until they decide it's time to give sub the attention it needs

not much else we can do

[keen dome]

It'll come.

And it'll be good.

[alpine wraith]

more than 10x actually

[keen dome]

poison toggle

[alpine wraith]

how about 20x

[grave parcel]

So we get dumpstered as a spec and ignored

It’s the beginning of an expack we shouldn’t be waiting on a rework

[keen dome]

I don't think we're really getting dumpstered though

[alpine wraith]

we are mid pack rn

[keen dome]

Supercharger is going to be really good, and imagine absolutely wild in pvp.

[alpine wraith]

yea it'll get super nerfed

[grave parcel]

It’s gonna get gutted In pvp

[alpine wraith]

that is also why AWC is taking some weeks break for MDI

[grave parcel]

And sub is going to be complete trash

[tribal blade]

wait is that raid stats

[alpine wraith]

post on wowhead

M parses sent

[honest saddle]

sounds about right

makes me fucking sick

[grave parcel]

Also u guys losing cdr takes away a lot of fun

[honest saddle]

100%

thats the real crime

not sepsis

[grave parcel]

Just because you guys want easy

[hazy breach]

"you guys"

[grave parcel]

They*

[honest saddle]

they didnt take away a button, they took away an entire play style

[grave parcel]

Meaning blizzard

[hazy breach]

But also sub isnt easy anyway

[honest saddle]

I think they think the reason noboby plays sub

[hazy breach]

Its still convoluted and complicated

[honest saddle]

is because its not intuitive

and it isnt

its absolutely not intuitive at all

what if you didnt know better

[grave parcel]

It won’t be anymore now

[honest saddle]

and you just didnt take secre tech in the tree

[hazy breach]

Yes

It still is

Thats what were saying

[sick jackal]

didnt nahj say we only take it in order to get dust?

[grave parcel]

No it’s not a huge loss

It’s just another outplay we can’t use

Like a mages blink

The point is it’s even more dumbed down with less options and makes us even more of a scripted linear spec In all aspects of the game

[tribal blade]

the numbers of players using sub is a reflection of how unintuitive it is

[grave parcel]

And that’s boring and un fun

[honest saddle]

sub is the most confuscated thing in the game

you would have no fucking clue how to play it

if you just sat and lookd at it

it takes forever to unpack

once you have it, its no big deal at all

but early on for someone

nearly impossible to unpack

[tribal blade]

if you've ever seen how someone who's never looked at a sub guide plays it

it's horrendous

[honest saddle]

I havent

but I would love to

[tribal blade]

because they have no idea how to layer anything

they send sectec on cd outside of dance

don't stack dance and symbols

[honest saddle]

I can only imagine

[tribal blade]

don't stack anything

and literally do 0 damage

[keen dome]

I wouldn't say it's complex, I'd say it's very unintutive.

[honest saddle]

correct

[keen dome]

Because once you learn the rules, it's a very simple spec.

[tribal blade]

i got to see it first hand in a pug raid during DF

when me and my guildies were carrying rasz

it was pretty enlightening

[grave parcel]

also why not make flag work with shadowblades

just make it add a CP

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[honest saddle]

I think flag not working with shadowblades is probably a bug

there are a lot of them

[grave parcel]

flag doens't add a CP

so its intended

[honest saddle]

did it work with sepsis

[hazy breach]

Sepsis adds a cp

And yes it did work

[placid crown]

Hey so what about stgh like this :

[tribal blade]

thing is with how things are now adding CP to flag would change nothing

because you wouldn't cast flag and blades that close together anymore

[placid crown]

the 2nd SoD lasts 16sec because it gets pandemic of the first one + extension with the strikes

[hazy breach]

Shadowmeld doesnt give premed

[grave parcel]

I think it dones't add anything in PvE, but it changes things in PvP and makes things alot less clunky which i know alot of u guys dont care about

I just wish we got a little more effort htis early in an expansion

[placid crown]

but with BL at pull and shadowcraft not consumed with the 2 first strikes, it's highly probable to get enough shadowcraft cp to go to 7 cp after shadowmeld

[grave parcel]

Also why auto SnD and why Auto tea, just seems like once again we are closing the skill gap on the class

[lilac stag]

Tea is still on use. Just had a cutoff

[hazy breach]

I mean sure, but youre getting fewer shadowcraft refunds later on then, and theres no real reason to do it

[keen dome]

Pushing S&D has ntohing to do with skill though

[hazy breach]

You dont get anything by delaying dance 2 gcds

[lilac stag]

Snd is not a skill gap

[tribal blade]

it's a QoL change

[lilac stag]

it’s trash

[honest saddle]

its not really even a qol change

[keen dome]

[tribal blade]

reduces button bloat

[honest saddle]

if you are just going to make it auto

take it out of the game

[grave parcel]

well dont doo that

[placid crown]

the only purpose is to get more flag buff for sectec

[honest saddle]

and buff something active

[hazy breach]

But youre already maxxed

[grave parcel]

will still use in pvp to consume CP's to get dance back

[tribal blade]

i think just make snd completely passive for rogue or something

[grave parcel]

Also isn't anyone upset about how less were gonna be dancing now

[tribal blade]

they're halfway there already

[placid crown]

well no, sectec max it, but it's not maxed for sectec

[grave parcel]

with the removal of CDR

[hazy breach]

I mean its at 28

thats close though

[honest saddle]

I mean, what part isnt passive now in 11.05

[placid crown]

21

[hazy breach]

Flag = 1
Evis = 11
Rupture = 21
Sectech = 28

[tribal blade]

it adds a clunky step of evising in the opener

could just do it clean and make it completely passive

why not

[placid crown]

how can you be at 11 after the 1st evis

[honest saddle]

just remove it if you are gonna do that

[keen dome]

if only, @tribal blade

[hazy breach]

Supercharger

[placid crown]

but no supercharger if no SoD

[hazy breach]

Well you SoD sometime earlier

[tribal blade]

that would require a lot of changes to rogue in general right

[placid crown]

well

[hazy breach]

They last forever

[placid crown]

no

[tribal blade]

for all spells kind of

[placid crown]

i mean why not

[hazy breach]

It gets reset down to two when you pull a boss

[placid crown]

it's not what fuu proposed in the guide x)

[honest saddle]

yeah, quite a bit. Many talents play off of it, and mastery for outlaw maybe?

[hazy breach]

Well the guide isnt updated for the patch yet

[tribal blade]

yeah it would be quite a big overhaul

i guess every spell that factored autos would have to be re tuned

[placid crown]

wait

can you explain

what do u mean

[hazy breach]

If you stack up 7

berfore you pull the boss

It resets down to 2

Just like combo points does

[placid crown]

if u stack 7 what ?

[alpine wraith]

you get 30 on sec tech because that one is also charged

[hazy breach]

Supercharger

[alpine wraith]

dont worry

[tribal blade]

oh god i need a pre pull WA for supercharger now

someone make it quick

[alpine wraith]

just have a reminder

when you rezz

there is also some value on using it if pre pull 20

[placid crown]

i dont understand

[tribal blade]

mmmm yeah possibly

[alpine wraith]

for rotten

but that one is whatever

2 crit strikes

in a whole fight

[honest saddle]

I NEED IT

PREPULL 20 IT IS

[alpine wraith]

although they hit quite hard because they are from stealth

and also we talent all the crit dmg now

[tribal blade]

hahaha if i ask my raid team to do a prepull 20

[alpine wraith]

17 works too

[tribal blade]

they will actually bully me until the end of time

[honest saddle]

we do 15

[hazy breach]

Ye its not really worth bothering with extending pull timers

[honest saddle]

what do you do graham

[alpine wraith]

15 is not worth

[tribal blade]

standard 10 😉

[hazy breach]

Just do one symbols after you rez and its fine

[honest saddle]

you psychos

[alpine wraith]

we do 17

10 is mental

people would faze out

[formal helm]

There's no way we have to do prepull 17

[alpine wraith]

i managed to bully people

[honest saddle]

mages would give up if we did 10

[alpine wraith]

locks too

[formal helm]

Fak mages

[honest saddle]

17 seems good

I can ask for that

[tribal blade]

any time we have to pause before a pull for stasis or any other sort of spell prep

everyone in disc starts losing their minds haha

[hazy breach]

I mean that prepull thing with rotten is something you couldve done this entire expac

Fwiw

Nothing is changing in that regard

[formal helm]

I'll be bullied for the rest of time if I ask prepull as rog man...

[honest saddle]

we used to need 40 seconds

[formal helm]

Okay then I'm just stupid

[honest saddle]

for 2pc swapping

and shit

[placid crown]

Sorry i don't understand what spell(s) u use before the pull and why

[alpine wraith]

yea i have been doing it always

i even explained it in my things

but no one cared and why should they the dps win is minimal

[formal helm]

Fair

[alpine wraith]

but it feels good

[tribal blade]

we use 1 charge of symbols before pull, you keep 2 stacks of supercharger on pull

[alpine wraith]

because they can also WM

[hazy breach]

Supercharger makes your next 2 finishers count as +3 cp

[alpine wraith]

littlo highroll

[placid crown]

so how many seconds before the pull you press the charge ?

i mean the sod

[alpine wraith]

there are diff lvls of pre pull

charger is whatever just as you rezz

or when you are in front of the boss

press it

it stays forever

rotten stays 30 secs but you cant to get the SoD charge before you spend it

[hazy breach]

Any

they last forever

[alpine wraith]

so ideally 20 secs but 17 works too because we have some gcds of prep

actually even 15 might work now

as we do strike flag evis strike rupture

[hazy breach]

You'd only need to time it if you want rotten, but that doesnt really matter

[alpine wraith]

yea 2 crit strikes in a 5min+ fight is whatever

even if you highroll and wm both

it would be like what 1m dmg or something like that

[placid crown]

well 1M dmg can be like 300 places in the logs

[honest saddle]

thats .5%

you know how much stupid shit we do for .5% percent

[placid crown]

è_é

[honest saddle]

17 second prepull is back on the menu boyz

I am writing an in game letter to your raid leader @tribal blade

thank me later

if you did 15

you would just need the second symobols to come up no sooner than 15 seconds into the fight, yeah

and youd have to hit it the second prepull came up

thats second symbols timing

15 seconds seems doable

[formal helm]

So 15 or 17 in the end

[alpine wraith]

both work it seems

[honest saddle]

15 Seems fine with 2 symbols and dm

[alpine wraith]

17 and 20 is safer

[honest saddle]

havent looked at trickster

[tribal blade]

haha!

[formal helm]

Ah ait

[lethal gale]

Is there a different rotation as far as cds coming off cooldown or has just the opener chagned?

[alpine wraith]

well first 1:30 mins are diff kinda

then it repeats all the time