subtlety

[valid ledge]

nah pugs got worse

safe

[pliant topaz]

https://imgur.com/ccu7dbw

@left ledge 4 more days bud

[alpine wraith]

have you seen hunter too it is quite funny

they do the same dmg in 4 secs that we do in 20

[pliant topaz]

nah didnt have time! was trying to think about how cool my 2nd sod charge is instead

i get 1 more over the entire fight!

[alpine wraith]

but what about the 3rd sod?

[steel horizon]

You shouldn't be retargetting at all if you're right clicking and holding

[alpine wraith]

my gamplay rn

ama

[tribal blade]

look at raid logs

there's a button on the raider.io page when you're looking at someone to go directly to warcraftlogs

if they don't have logs you can sometimes judge by the keys they've timed, like if they've timed a hard key at the key level or higher you're about to do, that's sometimes a good sign

[wispy pebble]

Can they just remove the coup dash please....

[steel horizon]

Right? Idk who tf asked for this lol. The amount of times I've been running out of an aoe only for coup to pull me back in it is roeoebdkeelkebdbwieb

[wispy pebble]

Wouldn't even be tag big of an issue if the stupid buff would show the stack in real time. But that shit takes half a second to decide if i got a new stack

[steel horizon]

I have my coup WA glow at 4 stacks but still sometimes im not paying attention to it lol

[wispy pebble]

Same for me but the stack just is super late mostly. I already pressed evis when the thing starts glowing

[steel horizon]

Just sub things

[alpine wraith]

blizz cant tell us to kill ourselsves

so coup and sepsis tp do the trick

[wispy pebble]

There is actually no shot anyone playtested that bullshit

If i want to get to my target i shadowstep

[tribal blade]

feels like they were thinking about outlaw when they designed it

it's literally bladerush

[pulsar locust]

will the 11.0.5 patch make sub good or is still ass

[drifting fable]

yeah rogue can compete

[alpine wraith]

still ass

[pliant topaz]

bro says that like anything can compete

[wind canopy]

yeah rogue can compete

[teal prawn]

yeah rogue can compete

[sullen hare]

yeah rogue can compete

[pliant topaz]

yeah rogue can compete

[alpine wraith]

yea rogue can compete

and lose

like those white guys that run in the races and get placed 20th

they are still super good runners

[thorny wagon]

in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king

[tribal blade]

i'm out of the loop what's the meme

is ele getting even stronger

@pliant topaz educate me

[alpine wraith]

they have changed a bit with new ascencion

but that one is old ele

new one is fire everywhere

[hazy breach]

Shamans just got massive buffs on the ptr that havent been toned down

Enhance can sustain like 2m ST on a dummy

[alpine wraith]

you do ascencion and put fire shocks and send lava to every target

just using the button puts you at like 4m dps

so silly

[hazy breach]

(they reworked some of their gameplay but didnt tone anything down yet)

[alpine wraith]

yea likely they get a 10% nerf slapper

or more

[tribal blade]

jesus fucking christ lol

[hazy breach]

https://x.com/von_wordup/status/1846826429083775001

Wordup (@von_wordup) on X

I am very scared that Enhancement is about to get even stronger in 11.0.5, and it is *not* good for the game for that to happen (nor is it fun gameplay). I'm BEGGING someone at the office to look at what's about to release.

Twitter · Oct 17, 2024, 8:11 AM

Wordup tweet

[tribal blade]

my ele is gonna come back from his 3 week vacation and be really fucking happy

ain't this the goddamn truth

blizz can be really bad about reflexive nerfs and overcorrect

[pliant topaz]

they havent done any giant over nerfing since 10.1

im just kinda concerned about how little care theyre putting into specs

design or tuning

its kinda gross

[tribal blade]

yeah this is insane

considering how well enhance is doing already

[stone raptor]

oh man, I'm glad other ppl hate this lol

it's so jarring

and useless

[crude jasper]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

Buff rog

[vale lagoon]

LOL

not even 2.7k yet

this spec

man

[uneven scarab]

ive like barely played and im top 30 on my realm lmfao

spec is dead

[manic island]

meanwhile im stuck trying to get groups for 9s lmao

[alpine wraith]

i have 2500 and cba

[vale lagoon]

nah u gotta be like

all 11s timed

to get into +10s as sub

[tribal blade]

i haven't touched sub in M+ for ~2 weeks and i'm #8 world still

only dropped 5 ranks

[manic island]

dude its silly

the spec is in shambles

im 2300 and top 500 in the world for the spec

lmao

i usually just get 2500 and quit for the season

but idk man feels like hitting my head against a brick wall

https://i.imgur.com/b3kW1bn.png at 2300

its a joke

[winter stratus]

Does Nimble Flurry proc with Gloomblade as well?

[alpine wraith]

yes

[smoky aspen]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[tribal blade]

so the heaving retch on the 1st boss NW is dodgable correct

and not cloakable

[vale lagoon]

yeah spec's fucked

[alpine wraith]

it is 1 sec cloak territory

[tribal blade]

one of those again, ok

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure u can claok it / feint it

and evasion it

[tribal blade]

look like on not even close can live with just feint

yeah and evasion

i just found out about evasion from casual

[alpine wraith]

yea people ask about that one all time in assa chat

the new m+ channel

in here if you want to ask about shit just @ me i usually know the weird shit

secrets shh

[spark tusk]

where'd I leave my car keys help me

[alpine wraith]

not in my house

[spark tusk]

holy shit you're right

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/dude-car-dude-wheres-my-car-gif-15075840

banger movie

[alpine wraith]

i love that movie

and now we sleep

today i will do my last 2 mythics of this week to say goodbye to trickster

sweet dreams princes

[fleet sparrow]

I am thinking of saying goodbye as well

To my rogue

I have never been interested in playing assassination, if I wasnt playing sub I would have mained something else. At this point logging into my rogue feels like holding my group back

I realize that's hyperbole because it's just terrible in m+, not actually unviable, but it's disheartening to do better on alts with 10-15 less ilvl without even having to try really

Doesn't appear to be any meaningful improvements coming with the patch either

Unless I've missed something

[barren plume]

🤷🏻‍♂️ rogues play on hard mode

[fleet sparrow]

If I liked the other specs it would be another story

[barren plume]

And go fuck yourself from blizz messages

[vale lagoon]

is trickster dead even in keys lol

hard to wrap my head around that

[tribal blade]

you can make sub work if you're a really good player for sure, but it's a lot of work for very little reward

[vale lagoon]

idk if we can call it "work" when the top sub players world are clearing 12s

but the top players in general are clearing 15s

like if we capped out at 14 when sin caps at at 15 then it's 100% fair

but man

[tribal blade]

i mean more so trying to get sub to do good damage in keys is really hit or miss

[vale lagoon]

isn't just straight up miss

all the time

[tribal blade]

yeah most of the time it's miss

[vale lagoon]

no i mean like "good damage" cant exist in a vacuum right

like ur dmg is probably insane compared to my 1.3mil average

but like im hearing horror stories of ppl maintaining 2 mil overall dps without augs lol

[tribal blade]

as sin you can do that yeah

[vale lagoon]

[tribal blade]

i have yet to hit 2 mil overall because i'm like 2 weeks into playing sin again

but creeping up there slowlly

but it's for sure more damage than sub

[vale lagoon]

i think for the average player like me it's the difference between 1.3 mil and 1.7 mil overall

[tribal blade]

like i'm a sub main and probably play the spec pretty well, but still beat it as sin doing everything wrong

[vale lagoon]

which is just ridiculous

now i jst wonder if we can at least be like

the bottle 40%?

as opposed to rock bottom?

after next week

[tribal blade]

it depends, a lot of people don't play sub not just because of tuning, it's how the spec plays

i'm mostly curious about how being able to have 1.5 min cds on top of DB will affect things

[vale lagoon]

excpet aren't we dropping db

[tribal blade]

but most likely sub does not catch up to sin

[vale lagoon]

for 3 stack symbols

no way we catch up to sin

but can we catch up to ret

[tribal blade]

for ST yeah, not sure about M+ build

[vale lagoon]

i think fuu was saying symbols even for m+

[tribal blade]

makes sense

i assumed we might possibly go put 1 point in symbols charge and then get DB

but if having more symbols is that big then we'll see

or if the spec just doesn't work w/o it

[vale lagoon]

what do we even give up

to get that 1 point

wm + inev?

for sure not taking PV over wm + inev for an extra symbol xDDD

[tribal blade]

i haven't played around with the new tree very much

and i'm too lazy to do it right now haha

and yeah PV is just hot garbage

[vale lagoon]

yeh PV is the only way to get 2nd symbol stack

unless u give up replicating shadows

i don't think there are much playing around we can even do tbh

[tribal blade]

sub talents need a huge overhaul

redesign half the stuff in there

[vale lagoon]

denial of half giants needs to come back

for real

idk why that and satyr boots never made a return

[pliant topaz]

i was catching up on bleach new episodes the entire key

[tribal blade]

SHEEEEESH

[pliant topaz]

sin so hard

i press 3 uttons

then afk

5 mil dps

vibes

[tribal blade]

when you're gapping the next highest dps by almost 1 mil

[vale lagoon]

LOL must be nice

[pliant topaz]

its okay sin might be good in keys but surely subs gonna be great in raid next week

surely

[vale lagoon]

well i mean

actually tho

do we even drop trickster next week

im still 100% convinced that bp buff is like

nowhere close to 35%

[pliant topaz]

nah eleem and I found a lot of gains for it

its significantly closer to deathstalker

in single target

[vale lagoon]

yeh but in aoe

keys

[pliant topaz]

imma be honest

[vale lagoon]

who cares about raids in this day and age lmao

[pliant topaz]

i dont think im gonna bother fixing the apl for aoe

[tribal blade]

i tend to sit on vanish a lot because i'm scared of losing my mark, should i just send vanish alongside deathmark every time

[vale lagoon]

man

idk why they had to give sin ambush tho

it's so fucking cringe

like just let sin open with garrote only

[tribal blade]

the entire mark system on DS is just very clunky

and makes no sense

[pliant topaz]

i think its pack dependant tbh. im keeping vanish mostly for when I need it for IC or silence. sometimes its with dm on huge packs somteimes not

im not sure whats correcty

the apl right now i think keeps it for spread when it needs it

[vale lagoon]

it's a very vanilla-esuqe thing lol

[tribal blade]

i'm checking out casual right now to see what he does

[pliant topaz]

yeah i was watching him too to see what he does

[tribal blade]

cool cool good to know

him running transmitter by choice in M+ is great

i think he's using double on use atm

1 for each KB i assume

[pliant topaz]

yeah i think so too

its better than what im running probably

this is kinda aids

[vale lagoon]

embrace the double passive life

and deal no dmg!

[tribal blade]

ngl i hate transmitter, i'm avoiding it at all costs

need to get me a skardyns

[pliant topaz]

ive never ever seen that trinket ever drop

[tribal blade]

me neither

and just completing any grim batol is a chore

[pliant topaz]

ive come to realize that i like gb

i dont like doing gb with most tanks though

it took me like 10 gb bricks to time a 12

[vale lagoon]

doesn't that trinket go to hell next week

[pliant topaz]

and the litearl first tank that actually had a route that wasnt litearlly walk to first mob. stop. kill opack. walk to next mob stop kill pack

we timed

[vale lagoon]

oh wait u jumped ship to sin already

[pliant topaz]

with 3 minutes left

[vale lagoon]

[tribal blade]

for sin it's good

[pliant topaz]

imma be honest i think sins gonna be gapping sub in st even more next patch

like theres virtually 0 reason to ever play sub over sin

unelss you jst like sub alot

which i like trickster alot

[vale lagoon]

i fucking hate sin's button bloat

fking ambush

shiv

kingsbane

????

[tribal blade]

yeah this is the big issue i'm having

[vale lagoon]

just give me fucking exsang build with none of the poison stuff again

[tribal blade]

i feel like sin doesn't have many buttons

[pliant topaz]

^

i have like 5 buttons

[tribal blade]

there's just a lot of micromanaging

[pliant topaz]

maybe 6

[tribal blade]

because you're keeping track of multiple dots

[pliant topaz]

i swear theres no micro managing either

[tribal blade]

yeah after i got off my bambi legs it's pretty chill

put up bleeds

[pliant topaz]

u need 5 ruptures out and like 2 garrotes

[tribal blade]

put up snd

put up spatter

[pliant topaz]

all ruptures drop at the same time

[tribal blade]

do damage

[pliant topaz]

thats not hard to track

[vale lagoon]

i guess what im most afraid of

[tribal blade]

yeah i agree, it's not too bad

[vale lagoon]

is actually stting down and reading all the sin talents lmao

havent touched it since bfa

[tribal blade]

it's daunting for sure

[vale lagoon]

70% haste exsang

[tribal blade]

you just sit on the target dummies

with the wowhead guide open

[vale lagoon]

i feel like sub just naturally makes a lot more sense

[tribal blade]

and spend hours practicing

[vale lagoon]

like all the sub shit just feel natural

like i read a bit and i can guess what my rotation should be more or less

sin's weird

[tribal blade]

for me sub has felt less and less natural the longer i get removed from when i started maining it in wod

it was a pretty complicated spec at the time, but played really well

[vale lagoon]

lmao im a legion baby

[tribal blade]

legion was pretty good too

and then once we hit bfa sub started going into the toilet

they shot sub so hard it was comically bad

and then ever since then the dev team has had 0 interest in sub

[vale lagoon]

oh yeah idek why

i guess they think only 1 rogue spec needs to be viable

so they just full send on sin

[tribal blade]

so to be fair sub was way too strong at the start of bfa

but it was just 1 boss

literally just 1 boss sub was overpowered

[vale lagoon]

that's sorta the point lol

[tribal blade]

and they completely gutted the spec over it

[vale lagoon]

ppl at this company doesn't actually know how to balance

or dont even try

they just identify a problem and permanently get rid of it

it's like they have a loud neighbor

so instead of going over to talk about it or calling in a noise complaint, they just gun down that neighbor's entire family

[tribal blade]

it would have been fine if they compensated by giving sub something in return, but they gave us nothing

[vale lagoon]

same thing happening to shaman rn no

shaman healer good so triple poison cleansing cd

technically problem solved kekw

rshaman no longer dominating m+

[tribal blade]

i didn't see that change but i heard about it

[vale lagoon]

yeah their answer to something being dominant

is just to fucking shatter its spine

instead of tuning

[ornate heron]

do you use focusing lens for m+?

[vale lagoon]

and idk how they've stayed in business so long being this incompetent

[tribal blade]

sometimes i agree, like when they made changes to mass dispel i was very happy

[tribal blade]

you can, it's perfectly viable

but sims would have a better answer

haha i'm watching casual's 15 siege

and he died to the shooting gautlet and was like "how is this not los???"

and he's absolutely right, that's some bs

[vale lagoon]

man i hate how sin plays

i should maybe try OL instead lol

craft a sword

[tribal blade]

it's not so bad once you get the hang of it

[vale lagoon]

i cant take not spamming

[tribal blade]

you can spam in aoe because you're saturated with energy

from all your bleeds spread

[vale lagoon]

idk

[tribal blade]

but yeah in ST your energy is pretty low

[vale lagoon]

on the 5 target dummy

im still SUPER energy starved

[tribal blade]

make sure you spread rupture after the ones you spread from IC are over

[ionic ore]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/updated-war-within-patch-11-0-5-patch-notes-20th-anniversary-celebration-348455

guys.. your honest opinion.

Why the fuck they remove shadowdust

[vale lagoon]

yeh ruptures are perma up

[tribal blade]

ah weird, i don't feel too energy starved most of the time

[vale lagoon]

im used to pressing something every global

like, non lust globals in and of themselves

[tribal blade]

you might possibly need more crit

[vale lagoon]

are too slow for me

oh yeah that's for sure

im playing with like 17% crit cuz sub gear

[tribal blade]

yeah that's really low for sin for sure

you're def gonna feel energy starved because your CP generation will be low

you can swap out a ring or neck

[vale lagoon]

but man i also just fking hate using garrote out of stealth

[tribal blade]

if you have anything saved

i agree i find IC very clunky

i'm not a fan

i like how fast it spreads shit, but not how it's time gated

[vale lagoon]

do u even bind garrote in non stealth bar lol

is there a point esp in aoe

[tribal blade]

yeah for sure

you wanna refresh in ST

and also you can apply in aoe for more prio dam

[vale lagoon]

but not on trash clears right

oh

yeah

[tribal blade]

i'm not 100% about refreshing non empowered garrotes in aoe tbh

[vale lagoon]

but i mean sin in aoe is just

u keep up CT/rupture

and spam envenom into 1 target right

[tribal blade]

pretty much

[vale lagoon]

god it's such horrible gameplay man

yeah i think imma go OL instead lol

unless sub somehow catches up to OL after patch

[tepid trellis]

talent is too complicated for the casuals + it has the potential to break certain fights and basically removes the weakness of being a cd class by being able to manually change your cooldown cadence, so you have no bad line ups

its also a very polarizing talent

you either love it

or you hate it

[regal stag]

so reading the last couple of days of discussion, sub is...how to put it politely...almost dead 😦 (i was sick and could not play for a while -_-)

[vale lagoon]

bro we been dead

unless ur one of the raid-focused dinosaurs

[regal stag]

i'm a dinosaur, but not raid focused. Was asking, because i was reading a lot about assass in the chat.

[vale lagoon]

LOL yeah in this new age of M+

our spec is more dead than kobe

[regal stag]

damn, it's really sad.

[tepid trellis]

depending on what level you play at, its kinda w/e

[vale lagoon]

was jsut posting earlier lol, 2650 io is apparently rank 25 world for this spec

[tepid trellis]

if you wanna push m+ then yeah sub

[vale lagoon]

imagine how garbage this shit is

[tepid trellis]

is kinda not it

[vale lagoon]

how little ppl play it

[regal stag]

it's true that out of SD we're dealing damage equal to a vanilla feral druid (and without Dust, there's not enough CDR to help)

[tepid trellis]

yeah

lower than tank dmg

on 5-6 mobs you do like 400k-500k

as trickster

that is

[regal stag]

sub always was a spec about prepping to strike ( a bit more on the pvp side, if a remember well) but when every damn dungeon/content asks you to be able to dish damage every 15 to 20 sec...it's kinda hard : /

[pliant topaz]

not really

sub could work

its just tuned bad

[regal stag]

(i kinda miss honor among thieves :D. it was busted but fun at the time)

[tribal blade]

if they turned the tuning knob on sub enough we could crank huge aoe dam on big pulls

[regal stag]

even if they decided to tune the numbers, there's still an issue with being tied to 3 Cd (dance/flag/SB) to deal damage, no ?

there's a bit of a design issue (but i'm no expert)

[tribal blade]

it would work if they'd let us burst as hard as we should be

[vale lagoon]

rolled 5 buffs the first ever time i swapped to OL

i think the game is telling me something

[tribal blade]

instead of bursting for a mediocre amount and then doing tank damage w/o cds

[regal stag]

that, or secret technique is not proccing fast enough to generate a ton of CP to help with the passive CDR.

[tribal blade]

the cdr issue is literally blizz continually nerfing our cdr

[regal stag]

not secret technique, sorry.

[tribal blade]

and then we gained the 4 set that gave lots of CPs

4 set goes away, we lose the CP generation and they don't compensate

but if they would just remove cdr from sub

that would go a long way to fixing the spec

[regal stag]

let's say they remove CDR, we're a bit stuck with a spec which will feel a bit miserable out of cd anyway.

(not that our CDR is really enough to be felt, though...)

[tribal blade]

we just wouldn't be playing the stupid cdr mini game anymore

[vale lagoon]

30 sec cd on sectech, dance, and symbols

would be nice

[tribal blade]

that requires us to have near 100% uptime to have enough cdr to make the rotation work

and it's pointless having cdr on dance and sectec when we can't press them on cd

that's the main thing, cdr only really works with spells that you can press on cd

[regal stag]

they maybe should have expend the spec around secret technique and the clone thing (cleaving single target damage for 10 sec after ST, for instance... boosting CP with clones, i don't know. i find it too naruto like for my old bones)

[vale lagoon]

idk why sectech has to be clones

it's from akaari's soul, which is then from shadow reflections

[regal stag]

they wanted ninjas, i believe ?

[vale lagoon]

but then it's sooo far removed from the original fantasy

idk

not worth all the bugs

[regal stag]

there's still the option to make sub an augmentation like spec by debuffing enemies for allies.

that...that i'll understand.

[proper temple]

so is sub going to be playable comes the reset?

[vale lagoon]

doubt it

[tepid trellis]

yes

wont be a top dog

but it will still be playable

[vale lagoon]

can it even catch up to OL lol

no way right

[proper temple]

compared to now? worse or same?

[tepid trellis]

lil bit better

[regal stag]

palyable, but (and i know the word is not good) still with this weird underpowered feeling when out of cd ?

[proper temple]

thanks stealthi

[vale lagoon]

?

ur underpowered during CDs too

lemme find u something

[proper temple]

i was weighing my options if it was worse

[vale lagoon]

check out this

[regal stag]

T_T

[vale lagoon]

do yall see us doing that kind of dmg during cds lmao

[stone raptor]

dunno, never seen another sub

[regal stag]

true. i've seen assass and OL. But no sub yet.

even here, we might be unassuming sub and playing assass.

[stone raptor]

I would never

how dare you

[tepid trellis]

it what happens when you play a 3x dps class

[vale lagoon]

i'd personally go OL over sin

[tepid trellis]

people play whats seen as the better

and right now

Assa is something else

[stone raptor]

nah I'm sub 4 life

I'll never give up the hour it takes to get into a group

[pliant topaz]

some do try to make their favorite spec work

but when tunings as bad as it is now

everyone swaps

[regal stag]

as i speak i see another sub rogue ig.

damn, miracles do exist.

[pliant topaz]

so spec shows even worse than it probably realisitcally is

[tepid trellis]

im still playing sub

and im likely to keep playing it for Queen ansurek prog

[stone raptor]

a real one

[tepid trellis]

i think its still better than Assa on her

[vale lagoon]

actually how far behind sin is OL

they're still far better off than us right

[tepid trellis]

dunno outlaw is a meme spec

[pliant topaz]

ill probably play it in raid too. although pretty sure subs gonna get gapped even harder after .5

[tepid trellis]

garbage ass spec

[pliant topaz]

but in keys, id rather time keys and blast

[tepid trellis]

i dont do keys unless im going for high keys again

which im very likely not

[pliant topaz]

im hardstuck 13-14s rn

cant get into keys

[tepid trellis]

i dont enjoy this seasons keys

at all

[pliant topaz]

takes an hour to get in -> bricks cuz tank hasnt timed above a 10

I really like this seasons keys tbh

[vale lagoon]

they actually fixed NW lol

[pliant topaz]

all of them feel really different from each other

[vale lagoon]

actually doable now

so not bad

[pliant topaz]

with their own unique littel routing and twists

[tepid trellis]

im the biggest hater of them bringing back old dungeons

i cannot stand it

[regal stag]

they bring deadmines back for the 20th bday. i'm kinda glad.

just for the DM.

[pliant topaz]

fwiw I dont mind the old dungeons they brought back

siege is a bit aids

and gb is really hard a

[tribal blade]

the biggest issue i find is they spend the entire season needing to tune and work out the issues for those dungeons

[pliant topaz]

but its kinda fnu

[tribal blade]

yeah grim batol is miserable

finally did a GB where we made it past the 1st pull

it bricked on a big pull with a lavabender in it

the tank is gathering and the lock immediately dies on pull

and almost 4 manned it until we didn't

[vale lagoon]

lul doing +11 gb 2 weeks ago

3 2.7k io ppl perma die to the frontal trash

[tribal blade]

IO is a bit wonky right now

[vale lagoon]

idk why tf the "fast cast bug" is so deadly for them when DBM is literally orgasm moaning right in ur ear

[tribal blade]

you see some high IO people who are completely clueless

[vale lagoon]

and the mob themselves have a "frontal" casting bar

like

just move bro

[tepid trellis]

99% of the playerbase isnt that good at the game

its a very casual game

[vale lagoon]

bro they were 2.7k io 2 weeks ago

[tepid trellis]

and with the new key level balancing it just makes it even more apparent

[vale lagoon]

or 2.6k ig

[pliant topaz]

its miserable at 12-13 level

because u get actual idiots +2ing 11s

[tribal blade]

true there's a lot of people stuck at the 11 range

[pliant topaz]

then theyre in a 13

[vale lagoon]

that's me on that 11 mist lmao

[tribal blade]

dude this is where i'm at, it's pretty bad

[pliant topaz]

yeah i still see some of them in 13s

but non in 14s

14s feel really good

everyones on point

[tepid trellis]

the scaling per key level is too high

they need to broaden out the scaling a bit

[vale lagoon]

bro's on 14s already

nuts

[tepid trellis]

except u bozo

boosted ass

[pliant topaz]

based af tbh

me big clueless

im only here to do stab stab

[tepid trellis]

and if im doing keys this season, im gonna end up shotcalling again

and i dont want to

so im hiding

[vale lagoon]

but bros

[tepid trellis]

until my group forgets i exist

[pliant topaz]

its ez to call as sin

[vale lagoon]

if i rolled 5 buffs the MOMENT i swapped OL just to check talents

[tribal blade]

i fell behind because i was trying to make sub work, and then having to relearn sin took a bit

[pliant topaz]

u have control over your vanish

[vale lagoon]

i'm fucking obligated to go that spec now right

[pliant topaz]

so it makes sense

also im lowkey bored in pulls half the time

it requires so little attention

[tribal blade]

and now it feels like i'm playing with people of similar skill level ~100 points above where i'm currently at

and when i play with people who have the same IO as me it is just really bad

[pliant topaz]

yeah from my experience people were turbo ratty until 2900s

then after that youre like okay people are playing the game now

[tepid trellis]

i dont even have all portals this season

(havent set foot inside of city of threads)

[tribal blade]

yeah 2900 people are where it felt like where i'd be at if i had started playing sin immediately

[pliant topaz]

i like city of threads

feels so exciting

onl issue is if your healer isnt actually a human being

you have 0 chance of timing that key

[tribal blade]

there's still time, no such thing as push weeks anymore

[pliant topaz]

its legit 4 healer bosses

[tribal blade]

so i was messing around with playing cheat in keys

and i tried doing CoT with cheat

[tepid trellis]

make sub stupidly broken in keys

[tribal blade]

and yeah that's not happening

[tepid trellis]

then yeah sure

[tribal blade]

THAT'S WHAT IM SAYING

[pliant topaz]

surely 11.1

right?

surely

[tepid trellis]

nah

[tribal blade]

we've been at this surely game for....

3 seasons now?

[pliant topaz]

surely we wont go an expansion with sub being worse spec in the game in all pve content

[tepid trellis]

ptsd

dont

go there

[tribal blade]

"surely they buff BP"

and it finally comes

[tepid trellis]

i remember bfa

dont remind me

[tribal blade]

bfa was an abomination

for sub

[pliant topaz]

u know what they say

history repeats itself

[tribal blade]

i dunno if anything can beat bfa sub haha

post nerf

but right now is close

we're at least viable in raid

[vale lagoon]

did it rly tho

is bp rly 35% stronger lol

[tribal blade]

it is

[vale lagoon]

i dont feel stronger lol

[tepid trellis]

35% ontop of nothing

just aint alot

[tribal blade]

armin is the poor guy who was wringing his hands over how bad BP was post rework

[pliant topaz]

yeah idk about that one chief

bp is in a really weird spot

[astral echo]

Is sub gunna be better with the 2 symbols of death

[pliant topaz]

if you have 8 targets, youre very close to not casting ruptures anymore

[tepid trellis]

welcome to SL

where you didn't rupture

above 4

targets

just BP

brrrrt

[pliant topaz]

bp does like 60% of evis's damage

[teal prawn]

condesning the key levels was a mistake

[pliant topaz]

yet spec does 0 damage

so like, how much more do u buff bp?

until spec is fully unfunctional?

[tepid trellis]

buff dance amp

by like 30%

[tribal blade]

buff sectec

[pliant topaz]

before you realize you fucked up the design

[tepid trellis]

having a fucked up design, is our design

wdym

thats our niche

[pliant topaz]

the spec fantasy

this is starting to make sense then!

our designs really good for the fantasy then

[tepid trellis]

yeah exactly

[vale lagoon]

ngl at this time dont we just need like a 5% aura buff

or more like 15%

to compensate for literally no talent working

[tepid trellis]

ok calm down bucko

[tribal blade]

let him cook

[vale lagoon]

No like

[tepid trellis]

nah it got burnt

[tribal blade]

imagine 15% aura buff

[vale lagoon]

shadow blades not working with sectech

[pliant topaz]

with that said, I do enjoy 3 sod trickster

[vale lagoon]

lingering not working with sectech

nothing working with shadowed finisher

[pliant topaz]

if they readjust the tuning of abilities a bit, its a fun playstyle

[vale lagoon]

like how much dmg are we losing?

at least 5% right

[tribal blade]

them fixing the spec would feel infinitely better than aura buff

[pliant topaz]

evis just needs to hit really hard. in all builds

[vale lagoon]

for either hero tree

[tepid trellis]

also

sectech not working with blades was done on purpose

[vale lagoon]

nah friendship with evisc ended sectech is m new best friend

[vale lagoon]

on purpose to spite us?

[pliant topaz]

thats funny af

[tepid trellis]

its thematic

most of sectech dmg aint us

therefor

blades no worky

[tribal blade]

sorry your shadow ability isn't supposed to work with this other shadow ability

[vale lagoon]

lul

[tribal blade]

hey if we doom in here enough is whispyr gonna pay us a visit again

[ebon tiger]

put PI and prescience on clones to compensate

[tepid trellis]

probably, but not at this level of crying

needs to be harsher

[tribal blade]

we can pump up these numbers

get scath in here

[teal prawn]

I gotta watch this vod to see how he came to this

[pliant topaz]

this reason is so incredibly stupid i can see it

[pliant topaz]

I think its just rage bait

all the specs up there are known to be problematic specs

[tepid trellis]

well its not "wrong"

[tribal blade]

it must be rage bait or he just made a list only listening to his chat

because the entire thing makes no sense

[pliant topaz]

cool what about nibmle?

is some clone doing nimble?

is that not coming from us?

[tepid trellis]

that i cannot explain

lazy coding

[pliant topaz]

or they jsut dont give a fuck

[tepid trellis]

probably

can only answer on sectech cuz i actually asked that

back in 10.2 rework

[pliant topaz]

I did however realize that i have finally gone through my 5 stages

[tepid trellis]

first time?

soon you will reach my level of enlightenment

[pliant topaz]

in this istuation? kinda

[tepid trellis]

"stealthi how are you always this calm about it"

you asked me that

soon you will reach that level

where you just dont care anymore

[pliant topaz]

i was like no shot this is going live like this, no shot theyre doing this.

[tepid trellis]

and whatever happens happens

[pliant topaz]

then i was legit disgusted by the sheer incompotence

then i was like nah 11.05, nah 11.1 surely

[tepid trellis]

cuz no matter really how badly they fuck it up

sub still remains at its core, which is what i love about sub

so it will remain "playable"

[pliant topaz]

then i was like no surely we can find gains maybe theres someethign i can do better

[tepid trellis]

in raid

[pliant topaz]

now imjust not rally playing wow except some keys on sin and raid loggging

[tribal blade]

ngl as soon as i made the swap to sin i started feeling a lot better

[pliant topaz]

ill be there soon hopefully

[tribal blade]

there's no point sitting here crying in a puddle of sub tears when i can just set up sin and be zooming

[tepid trellis]

i play wow as a seasonal game

not really outside of that

[ebon tiger]

seeing the essay of class changes for other specs then over to rogue genuinely feels like "well we have to give them something right?". especially classes that have received continuous reworks, tuning, and attention like mages and paladins. if you only look at rogues then it's like " hey rogues got mentioned"

so I just put a tampermonkey script in to only show me rogue changes/news else I get class envy

[fleet sparrow]

Tired of devs hitting vanish every time its time to work on sub I guess

[tribal blade]

it looks like the devs have made TWW the shammy expansion

they get massive rework going into the expac and then on anniversary event get massive changes once again

[pliant topaz]

i like the dark ranger hero talent rework too

[vale lagoon]

meanwhile i just wonder if we'll be up to par with the middle of the pack classes

after changes lol

[pliant topaz]

not really

[ebon tiger]

chris metzen was a huge sub rogue fan but his proposed changes haven't made it through the pipeline yet. it's gonna be big - me when I lie

[vale lagoon]

man

sucks

[vale lagoon]

we ain't even catching up to outlaw huh

[vale pine]

Changes are a minimal buff, but it's nothing of significance

[vale lagoon]

o do i gotta specify that i meant in keys

i think i should, mb

[vale pine]

Same for keys

[vale lagoon]

dangit

ig i better start recrafting then

feelsbadman

[vale pine]

I mean, embellishments are low impact, no need to recraft

[nimble burrow]

I FEEL GUILTY

[vale pine]

I think it always comes back to us finding a way to make it work

[vale lagoon]

no stats lol i have lik 0 crit

[vale pine]

Sub needs no crit or haste

[vale lagoon]

yeah im recrafting to go something else eggs dee

i wanna play OL

bcuz sin seems rly tedius and boring

[vale pine]

Have fun

[vale lagoon]

dunno lol, sucks i already have crafted helm

[vale pine]

That's fine

[vale lagoon]

yeh ig recraft every slot crit versa

[teal prawn]

low on kicks

[tribal blade]

ok on NA lfg is memeing right now

[nimble burrow]

Yea dmg is low too

[pliant topaz]

based tbh

[tribal blade]

i'm listing +20 mists

why not

oh my god someone is actually seriously queueing to my 20 i listed

[pliant topaz]

LOL

[tribal blade]

2 people are

and they're both ragnaros

[pliant topaz]

sounds like theyre ready to game

thats shits io

kekw

[tribal blade]

do you think anyone actually gets to 20s this season

seems impossible

[keen dome]

Maybe right right at the end with capped iLevel and some big comp?

[tribal blade]

maybe, it's hard to say

but i don't think those players have many more ilvls to gain

[keen dome]

Yeah, true

I'm just always in awe at the shit people pull off in keys

[tribal blade]

and with the scaling right now every jump in key level is really big

the thing is you're hard gated by how much damage you can take

[keen dome]

Ye

[tribal blade]

and also how much damage you can deal

[keen dome]

The highest people have timed is a.. 16 right?

[tribal blade]

actually not sure, let's look

might be 15

you're right 16

[keen dome]

Might be. I recall it being a chinese team? It came up in another discord the other day and it was pretty wild to see, just big gaming.

Bear shaman aug frost DK and.. mage?

[tribal blade]

there's been 11 16s timed so far

[keen dome]

Damn

That's really fucking impressive

[tribal blade]

the chinese team timed a 16 NW, that shit is bananas

all the other 16s timed are easy ones

although i dunno if you can count mists as an easy key once it's that high, maybe timer wise

[keen dome]

I'll be up there in a few days. I just need to run one or two more NW's

[keen dome]

I imagine final boss is absolutely bullshit evil that high

I struggle with it on 9 / 10. Can't imagine it at 16

[tribal blade]

i've personally been struggling a bit in NW the past few days, which is highly ironic since i played the shit out of SL

[tribal blade]

also the first boss

you have to absolutely crank ST damage

[keen dome]

Less going on, more.. clear?

[tribal blade]

because if you get an extra intermission key's over

[keen dome]

Ooh, yeah, good point.

[tribal blade]

yeah that boss is one of those toxic bosses

[keen dome]

I bet some of the packs before boss 3 are actually demonic too

[tribal blade]

when you get fight it on higher key levels

[keen dome]

I'll almost certainly never see it above a 10, but I think I get it, yeah

[tribal blade]

11 mists is pretty chill

the big thing about mists is it requires a whole bunch of little tricks to speed the key up

that add up

if you don't do any of those tricks the whole key is way slower

[keen dome]

Pulling extra packs through fog is one of them, right?

[tribal blade]

and being hard gated by how fast you can go in the maze is pretty toxic

yeah pulling packs in the maze is mandatory

[keen dome]

Ye, not a fan of the maze.

[tribal blade]

the healer figuring out the maze while you're fighting the pack

[keen dome]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

min maxing the mushrooms before 1st boss

[keen dome]

I guess without the maze, the dungeon would be pretty tiny. but much like the second half of the DF mega dungeon, I really hate those kind of timewasting bits.

More of a low key issue, but people will troll the fuck out of it in pugs and get it wrong instead of taking a tiny bit longer to be sure.

And then get pissy haha

[tribal blade]

oh yeah mists is absolutely miserable at lower key levels

i can see that

[keen dome]

Most keys this season are miserable at lower keys levels for quite a few reasons, but mists, NW, city, and dawnbreaker tend to be the worst for it in my experience.

[tribal blade]

NW is another i can see yeah

CoT yeah i can see that too

[keen dome]

CoT is funny because it's either the trash / 1st boss. Or final boss orbs.

Nothing inbetween.

I don't think it's actually all that difficult, just a relatively dull dungeon with an annoying RP wait.

[tribal blade]

there's tech for the 1st boss in pugs

[keen dome]

Did it on 10 and we almost timed it with my idiot ass in it.

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ6kcGrrM10&t=9s

next time you do it link this to the healer

1st boss is way easier if you do this

basically the healer can ping the person they're going to dispel first

and then dispel 1-2 seconds later

[keen dome]

Oh damn, I didn't know you could ping player frames

[tribal blade]

and it lets everyone know w/o comms which person they need to dodge orbs from first

[keen dome]

that's really good to learn

[tribal blade]

instead of everyone just guessing

there's literally no other way to do it in a pug

with no voice

[keen dome]

That's a really good technique. Love the use of pings.

[tribal blade]

yeah the ping system was probably one of the biggest positive changes wow has had in quite a while

[keen dome]

I use them pretty aggresively in my heroic weekly pugs, and now i know I can ping unitframes, hooboy that's big tech.

But yeah - that technique for the dispels is really good.

[tribal blade]

i finally timed it on a 12 this week and the healer used that

first time i've actually seen a healer do it

and lo and behold we didn't wipe

[keen dome]

Hell yeah. Makes a lot of sense to just let people know what to do immediately

[teal prawn]

you'll get there one day king

[half comet]

assuming sub will still be the play on silken

[lilac stag]

Not sure about that. Assa already up there.

Have to see what both can cook up with changes

[half comet]

gg

mandate has been updatedi n the sim for a while now right

dont need custom apl?

[hazy knoll]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[lilac stag]

Correct. It may be slightly less than the custom apl. The custom had an error casting it off gcd.

[half comet]

Okay so shouldnt use it got it

Ty

[dim cave]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lilac stag]

Nah it’s still really good. Just a little gamba with crit. I personally enjoy it.

[pulsar mauve]

Do we expect the new sub to be on par number wise with current sim ?
I'm about to start prog on Princess, and seeing the class balance is so sad 😦

[hazy breach]

#1271971289396936735 message

[pulsar mauve]

Just like ovinax, it feels like we are trolling playing sub ..

[vale pine]

minimal ahead

[pulsar mauve]

Oh god holding blades is so cursed 😄

Muscle memory will hit hard

[vale pine]

its just a minimal delay

[pulsar mauve]

Thanks for the TC details !

[void hound]

this is so god damn cooked
maybe its a "wait for 11.1" angle

[vale pine]

its not too bad rly

[hazy breach]

Its mostly the same as current db

In terms of playstyle

Except its 90s instead of 120

[void hound]

DB plays like ass and those symbol/dance usage rules look really unfun

but eh i guess we will see

[pulsar mauve]

It's such a shame really, I didn't like dust on paper before s3, but it was the most fun I had in WoW for some time

[fallow nimbus]

With the sod charges we will always need to do nothing at 30secs before cds to get 2 sods inside

Maybe with better dance cdr we could atleast dance

But that is wishfull thinking

[pulsar mauve]

I'm wondering if playing with more crit would give us more confort playing the spec

Like is there some sim that showcases how many dances/min you get with a full mastery/crit build for example

Maybe that sims a bit less on patchwerk, but probably some annoying bosses like princess it could be good to help cdr

[fallow nimbus]

Crit does nothing for us

Just fw uptime outside cds

[olive tinsel]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[olive tinsel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fallow nimbus]

@hazy breach in your tc info post you write dance+ supercharger for the 3 symbols rotation, do you mean symbol use?

[vale pine]

there is a new talent

[fallow nimbus]

Or dance without symbols because 3 charges need cd x 3 to fully recover

[vale pine]

which gvies you extra charges of symbols

if you skill it 2 times

[fallow nimbus]

I know

[vale pine]

you have a total of 3 symbols charges

[fallow nimbus]

For the 2 and 1 charges he wrote dance + symbols

[abstract skiff]

this multiple symbosl thing seems very weird

[fallow nimbus]

And i don't think we won't take supercharger in any build

[pulsar mauve]

What do you mean ? We get more CPs from crit don't we ?

[fallow nimbus]

No

That's assa seal fate

[pulsar mauve]

Wow

[fallow nimbus]

We get more cp with autohits

That's why snd should scale with mastery

But it doesn't

Imagine assa crimson tempest not scaling with any bleed stuff

[abstract skiff]

how do people feel about these changes? kinda feel like they dont address any of the things i dont like

[hazy breach]

Yes

[spark tusk]

Is sectec also used as first finisher in non blades dances?

[hazy breach]

Yep

Probably because of tier, but idk why its worth now and not before if im being honest

But robot says not worth to delay it, possibly due to timings ending up wrong for the burst ones? Idk

[spark tusk]

Timing was my first thought

[vestal escarp]

Tier was my first thought

Btw sod usage seems very mess at first glance

Prolly with practice it goes smoother but looks like amirdrassil sheet tier

0 10 30 45 55(naked) 90 100 (skip 120) 135 145 (naked) ....etc

[hazy breach]

I mean

Its just an extra set on the first rotation

Otherwise its always just skip dance if flag is coming up in ~30

[vestal escarp]

Wonder if it is by design that we chill ~40s before cds every time

Nothing wrong with me but very unusual for this game

[tribal blade]

i don't think so, i think it's just become that from crappy design

and they have yet to address it if they're even aware it's a thing

[vestal escarp]

we got time to play mechanics

(if they happen in what window)

[haughty mural]

that is a really good copium

[vestal escarp]

[formal helm]

is there a bug with cheat death btw?

I ran into a tentacle on last boss gb, and got cacoon on me and healer kinda gave up

but I somehow got healed to full insta after that

(when cheat death procced)

and it says it overhealed me by 9m?

??

[bronze turret]

Cheat death has always been kinda krangled

In both good and bad ways

[tribal blade]

i've never heard about that one, interesting

the most recent one i've run into is the seriously annoying one of cheat not working if you take several hits of damage instantaneously

happened on tswift with roots stacked on each other, and it's happening on ovinax if you take several swirlies at once

cheat procs but you don't get the damage DR and die through it

[hazy breach]

yep

[tribal blade]

i just don't trust cheat to work on ovinax anymore

and dodge whenever possible even if i int my dps

but dodging while adds are out as melee is omegalol

[formal helm]

Yeah

Idk

Was very weird

And the dmg mitigated it says is 100m

Which is crazy amount

[tribal blade]

there's no way it mitigated that much

[formal helm]

Ye

Exactly

But log says that

[tribal blade]

if you actually took 100m worth of damage cheat wouldn't even proc

that's crazy

[formal helm]

Yep.

I can find it later

Not at my pc rn

[tribal blade]

i've been running cheat in M+ so far, but it's getting to the point where i can't anymore

can't be lazy and rely on it

sadly

[vale pine]

likely because of cdr

[amber thorn]

in dance as trickster we use powder on >8 targets if flawless up? or less targets

saw wowhead but idk if its already updated and counts with powder buff

[hard ember]

how much of a loss would it be to drop rotten/1 symbol for 2x finality

wait heck, there's symbols dmg on the symbols charges per point ;-;

[hazy breach]

Finality is actually kinda ass

[hard ember]

is it

rip

[hazy breach]

Not ass but its not nearly as good as it seems

Like the third charge of symbols isnt good

But rotten is almost as good as 2 points of finality

[hard ember]

but finality isn't either

oh

builder dmg subtlety

[ornate current]

Don"t think the new dev is aware of anything

[tepid trellis]

it aint no singular dev

its a team of people

ignoring us

[ornate current]

Talking about the lead

They aint all off a leash

[hazy breach]

More realistically theyre probably just focusing on other things

[ornate current]

Imagine releasing tooltip

[hazy breach]

But for us thats the same thing

[ornate current]

With 50%

And its 40% in actual

Now thats incomeptant

[hazy breach]

Its actually 50% in actual content, its just 40% in tww open world zones like dornogal

for some reason

[ornate current]

In raid and m+ ?

[hazy breach]

yes

[tepid trellis]

Eleem went on a deep dive trip the other night

[vale pine]

The problem with finality is evis isn't that big

[hard ember]

maybe this is an elitist take but suddenly this is a complete nonissue

if it's 50% in hard content

still strange/not good that it's like that

but it certainly makes me feel a lot better

[hazy breach]

the only bug i found with nimble in raid/m+ scenarios is that fazed doesnt seem to work on it

[hard ember]

oh

[ornate current]

I had cases where i use sectech and it doesn't apply a stack

Like wtf is that about

[hazy breach]

And i guess you could consider shadow damage nimble cleaves getting reduced by armor a bug

[tribal blade]

hrm so it's not really bug issue, it's just tuning issue once again

[ornate current]

No fucking way is that a thing...

[tepid trellis]

by their design of how flurry works it shouldnt work with the main target but still work if other targets around you have fazed

[hazy breach]

Well nimble is physical

[tribal blade]

say it isn't so

[hazy breach]

So its getting reduced by armor

[ornate current]

Incompetence is a word,... yes

[hard ember]

in a way this is the other side of the coin of envenom hitting through bop and such interactions probably

[hazy breach]

This has nothing to do with that

[ornate current]

It always hit through it

[hard ember]

not physical application

vs.

oh that's weird af then

is it some stupid whitelisting reason

[hazy breach]

No