Just checking 11.0.5 notes, weren't they removing shadowdust build? Did that get reverted?
#subtlety
lilac stag
gleaming geyser
Where about is that
lilac stag
photoshop
near rivet
silken court is now more DS angle or trickster?
keen dome
Didn't take it on any alts. First completion of the week: 115 Kej or crystals. But in my journal it showed the Rep reward lmao
near rivet
i imagine that you would only evi to spend DN, bp otherwise
sinful finch
I think what i’m trying to establish is the general player-base. Most people look at the statistics for Mythic raid logs and take them at face-value.
Can they be looked at in further detail? Sure. Does it make much of a difference? No.
Class tier lists have been saturated by over inflated logs and YT hype for as long as I can remember. Simming your character and getting an idea of what you are supposed to achieve based upon your current Ilvl and gear is the better way of thinking imo.
vale pine
Where about is that
i compiled it for the rogue artile on wowhead, which isn't out yet
lilac stag
better way of thinking is know what your raid needs to move forward and applying your dps strengths there
gleaming geyser
Is sub rogue dead then on 11.0.5? Not that its very great already lol
lilac stag
Yes
sinful finch
better way of thinking is know what your raid needs to move forward and applying...
I leave that down to the RL. You should always play what you enjoy and know.
lilac stag
if you enjoy inting prog sure
vale pine
Is sub rogue dead then on 11.0.5? Not that its very great already lol
no
its not dead
its pmuch the same as it is atm
!dot5
wicked joltBOT
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:
- Talent diversity
- Defensives
- Gameplay
This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.
lilac stag
its pmuch the same as it is atm
So life support, but worse gameplay. 
sinful finch
if you enjoy inting prog sure
You would be inting prog if you jump onto something that you have very little enjoyment or knowledge of. Mostly every single class is viable to a certain extent.
nimble burrow
fuu may i ask in AoE rotation, Evi always has higher prio than BP in "Darkest Night" or always BP?
lilac stag
it’s not unrealistic to expect a mythic raider to understand 2 of 3 dps specs
sinful finch
it’s not unrealistic to expect a mythic raider to understand 2 of 3 dps specs
If the RL is doing their job correctly you don’t have to worry about the composition. As far as you are concerned. You are there to do mechanics correctly and dps accordingly.
alpine wraith
i dont mind playing assa on ovi nax
it is quite easier than sub too
and only does around 700k more dps
without losing much st
imagine if yornado was a real cd
lilac stag
mental gymnastics going on trying to say on prog it’s ok to not know how to play assa and do considerably higher dps.
but to each their own
vale pine
fuu may i ask in AoE rotation, Evi always has higher prio than BP in "Darkest Ni...
you evi only on single target
or for prio damage
alpine wraith
you also evis with DN always
nimble burrow
okay so its like when i have DN, my first prio in finisher is Evi, if no DN, the first prio for DS is BP
i will remember it
the logic between those 2 hero talent is completely different
looks fun
sinful finch
mental gymnastics going on trying to say on prog it’s ok to not know how to play...
I think you might be doing those backflips yourself my friend. No one has said that playing the optimum spec of your class isn’t viable. But it has been proven time and time again that every class is viable to a certain extent. But the composition of 20 players is down to the RL and our RL expects the person to play the spec which they feel comfortable on an can maximise their dps unless it’s absolutely necessary to play a different spec.
Because of this we are 6/8
Coming close to 7
nimble burrow
also fuu may i ask like the SS in the pic after SD, does it mean we need to use it for stalkers buff proc at first and after that we only use Storm as the major builder? also in a new dance of the pull, should i use SS instead Storm also?
gleaming geyser
Does someone want to contribute to wowanalyzer so our spec can be used? 😄
wispy bolt
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a...
This actually reads like sarcasm
fierce cedar
hm
vale pine
also fuu may i ask like the SS in the pic after SD, does it mean we need to use ...
for trickster we dont use storm in dance
wispy bolt
Does someone want to contribute to wowanalyzer so our spec can be used? 😄
I took a look and it’s not worth until dust is removed anyways
See what the rotation settles out to be
void hound
!dooming
wispy bolt
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a...
“Basically everything gets worse. But don’t worry, our already low damage stays the same!!!!! Praise be our glorious leader Blizzard. There is no bad patch in ba sing se”
Direct translation in my brain as I read
vale pine
Does someone want to contribute to wowanalyzer so our spec can be used? 😄
wowanalyzer is not maintained
vale pine
technically also means we are better in m+
alpine wraith
but we can do some cool things for some fights with downtime
yea on places with RP we can prepull charger
wispy bolt
My worry is APL can do better but that don’t mean shit
If it’s so demented that it’s unworkable in keys or some shit
keen dome
dont worry you can enjoy using backstab in dance
😰
alpine wraith
not really gameplay in keys wont change much
apart from getting a charged sec tech+bp if possible
keen dome
Maybe we'll be the boss killer supreme.
keen dome
"Who's that guy? Why is he doing no damage on trash?"
"Ah, he's the Sub rogue. Watch this!" One-shots boss
vale pine
My worry is APL can do better but that don’t mean shit
it just gives a better picture of performance
pastel rampart
don't worry guys everything about the spec gets significantly worse but this will not affect the anniversary event tmogs so the patch is still OK
vale pine
fights are not patchwerk
keen dome
don't worry guys everything about the spec gets significantly worse but this wil...
truth and good
vale pine
don't worry guys everything about the spec gets significantly worse but this wil...
exactly
alpine wraith
there is a secret tech with thaurissan trink and ironfoe
vale pine
the new raid
vale pine
is tuned for casual play, it won't matter
alpine wraith
i trist
wispy bolt
Speculating with just sims is worthless I know, but I don’t have hopes that it’ll be good in live
vale pine
Speculating with just sims is worthless I know, but I don’t have hopes that it’l...
on no, simulations are actually rly important
keen dome
I'm pretty curious about the anniversary trinkets and stuff. They are Hero at max right?
vale pine
its a very good data point
wispy bolt
I highly disagree
vale pine
and can help with many decisions
alpine wraith
no idea we know 0
wispy bolt
like immensely
vale pine
just
pastel rampart
buh
vale pine
the problem with sims is, we always use it as one data point
keen dome
Ah, I thought we did. boo.
keen dome
Exciting
vale pine
like
keen dome
I am lookin forward to pugging the 'new' raid
alpine wraith
btw if people dont know what ironfoe is
pastel rampart
me when I stab the back for 90 seconds (this will give me 8 seconds of gameplay later!! please do not assign mechanics to me)
alpine wraith
and hojhttps://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=11815/hand-of-justice
vale pine
sims can tell you so much:
- how good is cleave
- trade offs of talents
- benefits of buffs
- the most benefitial play
- Damage profile
...
wispy bolt
That assumes the changelog is correct
Sims assume stuff we don’t know until it goes live
wispy bolt
it can change come Tuesday
alpine wraith
that is how we know the bugs
vale pine
Sims assume stuff we don’t know until it goes live
well
alpine wraith
yea and then you change it again
vale pine
i mean
wispy bolt
look at BP rn
wispy bolt
Do we even know if it got buffed? Tooltip don’t match
vale pine
and stay in game
keen dome
It can change but you can still work with what you've got
wispy bolt
like we say “sims says DS is better” for the past week
But I don’t think it got buffed
vale pine
because of picking on one small detail
wispy bolt
Like the math ain’t mathing in game
vale pine
Like the math ain’t mathing in game
it kinda is
pastel rampart
simulations are a LIE
months of testing and no proof that nimble is 50%
vale pine
and tricksters burst can offset it on e.g. court
the sim takes the spell data
soo
what is actually in game
spell data is a part of the game client
pastel rampart
I posted a vid showing it’s 35% below tooltip
blizzard are known for having the most accurate of tooltips too
wispy bolt
Does TT not pull from spell data?
hazy breach
I posted a vid showing it’s 35% below tooltip
In raid or m+?
vale pine
whats TT?
vale pine
Tooltips are often wrong
hazy breach
But ye BP is reduced by armor
pastel rampart
Like tell me how that spaghetti code works
that's the neat thing, it doesn't
spare oar
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hazy breach
It should do less than its tooltip
wispy bolt
In raid or m+?
A single hit to a target dummy. No buffs
vale pine
if you want to see how wrong tooltips are
look at flagellation tooltip
then press shadowblades
and look at it again
vale pine
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
wispy bolt
Where can we see the actual number a BP should do with full combo points (no active buffs)
hazy breach
and hojhttps://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=11815/hand-of-justice
The anniversary ones doesnt have the extra attack
keen dome
lol, that's amazing
wispy bolt
That’s the only way to compare against sim
hazy breach
Its just extra damage
vale pine
lol, that's amazing
its only good for fun and giggles
keen dome
It's a great demonstration of your tooltip point though
vale pine
or to make an argument for tooltips being wrong
keen dome
I hadn't ever noticed it
But you've also got stuff like Lingering Darkness still showing 0% (but it actually works as I understand it?)
nimble burrow
for trickster we dont use storm in dance
yes, so i have a little bit confuse about the SS and Storm usage for DeathStalker In DeathStalker AOE, do we only use Storm for CP, and only use SS for Marker builder?
vale pine
but thats a entire topic on its own
keen dome
ye
wispy bolt
I guess an advanced sim question would be is it possible to run a sim that gets full combo points and presses BP. That’s it. No find weakness etc
keen dome
It's just impressive that the tooltip is still broken.
vale pine
yes, so i have a little bit confuse about the SS and Storm usage for DeathStalke...
Deathstalekr:
- Uses storm on 2+ targets outside of dance
- Uses storm on 3+ targets during dance
- Uses storm on single target if you have the empowerment and cooldowns are not up (symbols)
you start using BP for aoe on 2 targets
BUT use evis still to proc the capstone
nimble burrow
ty for answering fuu, quite clear
vale pine
I guess an advanced sim question would be is it possible to run a sim that gets ...
i don't understand the question
vale pine
It's just impressive that the tooltip is still broken.
for the nwe talent, sure
jaunty heath
It's just impressive that the tooltip is still broken.
i miss what we had
vale pine
for flagellation, i perosnally would put it lower than the lowest priority to fix
its just funny
keen dome
Oh yeah, totally.
wispy bolt
i don't understand the question
My question in the abstract sense is how is raid bots tested against live for individual abilities
keen dome
I don't think tooltip issues are a big priority as long as the spell works properly
wispy bolt
In terms of base damage
keen dome
Looking at you nimble flurry
vale pine
My question in the abstract sense is how is raid bots tested against live for in...
basically it works like this
gameplay mechanics are implemented in the simulation
after that, people will modify the action priority list to figure out the optimal gameplay
you can check if a spell is up
or a debuff
on your target in the apl/sim
so conditional use can be adjusted
wispy bolt
Yeah I understand the APL logic, but how it implements damage is my question
wispy bolt
But it was
vale pine
yes
wispy bolt
How do we check that
vale pine
well
wispy bolt
For any spell
nimble burrow
why are we using Storm only at 3+ targets during dance? is it just bc it doesnt worthy or the SS can cleave also as Death Stalker?
vale pine
the spell data are basically the baseline how spells are implemented
the data is extracted from the game
and its a bunch of values, flags, etc
deciding on the damage of the spell, school, etc
wispy bolt
yes that all makes sense and matches my expectation. I’m trying to wrap my head around how a tooltip is showing wrong damage when no buffs are active
vale pine
these are glued together in the game by scripts
wispy bolt
Unless blizzard has 2 different number in code
vale pine
basically the game reads the data and knows how to handle them
wispy bolt
For base damage
vale pine
so the problem is
you can change the handling on the server
to e.g. fix bugs
etc.
so a spell can have valid spell data
but have parts of it set on the server
or calculated form a value somewhere else than what would make sense
or a scrip that modifies it in a certain way
these bugs and behaviour is essentially what we find by testing the game
and then implement in the sim
e.g. for the 0% in tooltip
it likely references the wrong spell data value
which is 0
but the spell itself does use the correct one
so the shadow damage amp works
but the tooltip is incorrect
if that makes sense
iron spear
yes that all makes sense and matches my expectation. I’m trying to wrap my head ...
because there is a high chance that the tool tip in game is grabbing some static values from your char, then is putting them in a math equation that is basically guesstimating your dmg and that value is put into the the tool tip. + There is a high chance, that it actually takes some effort to make the math correct but for the absolute majority of the players it is not important. So you better spend your dev time somewhere else.
sharp peak
They put the wrong field on the front end
alpine wraith
alberto ermenegildo did the backend then went on permanent vacation
and the front end one just sent it
alpine wraith
what control blizz does not have QAS
vale pine
should be fairly obviouse
alpine wraith
otherwise this things would not happen
they may have QA but it is likely they triage prio most of the things they find
short radish
does evasion prevent queensbane application on princess
iron spear
probably a combination of quality control and available time at the end of the day.
vale pine
exactly
vale pine
i mentioned a lot of times how time is a central factor in many things
like... getting more changes/attention
alpine wraith
in many projects i work you have "the guy" sometimes it is me other times it is other people
that do the things
lilac stag
and lack of personal responsability
100%
vale pine
and also how quality of the product can come down to time investment
alpine wraith
but if you do it factory mode
and have toxic positivity
this is how it ends up
sadly game dev is actually hard to find people
because it is grueling and does not pay well
lilac stag
they’re fine just sending out the bugs. Always have been. Now they’re even more excessive (if that was possible).
alpine wraith
and when you lose the veterans and get new people the learning curve has to be disastrous
iron spear
I mean, do we even know how big the team is that is working on rogue? Could also just be a small team with a big task
short radish
nothing prevents it
whats the one you can prevent with bop?
lilac stag
You think rogue has a team? That’s adorable.
alpine wraith
whats the one you can prevent with bop?
tank thingy dot i think but not 100% sure
vale pine
I mean, do we even know how big the team is that is working on rogue? Could also...
its a team, its not 1 person
lilac stag
It’s also not only on rogue
vale pine
and they share multiple classes/specs
bronze turret
I mean, do we even know how big the team is that is working on rogue? Could also...
10-12 people across all 30 specs
vale pine
10-12 people across all 30 specs
*40
bronze turret
Ye
vale pine
(technically 39)
bronze turret
Its alot
alpine wraith
they didnt help themselves with hero talents either
but everything so they dont have to make the tree longer
vale pine
hero talents look wilder than they are
alpine wraith
they are very dev intensive
vale pine
they are basically just 2 diffrent baselines
vale pine
i don't know
if you mean they have a lot of bugs
it just comes down to not having the time or expertise to do it correct the first round
a lot of bugs also come from a certain design philosophy
e.g. for rogue many changes made their job harder
and as a consequence, we see the very same bugs/problems with every new spell
lilac stag
What’s absolutely wild is the decision to have a total of 12 people responsible for what is the most inportsnt aspect of the game seemingly for the majority of the player base. Doesn’t matter the level of content. People like fun and nice visuals for their char.
alpine wraith
likely they need people with specific skills
and also likely most of them are still in learning
vale pine
What’s absolutely wild is the decision to have a total of 12 people responsible ...
don't worry they handle bugfixes and tuning too ^^
lilac stag
I know.
lilac stag
And I’m assuming PvP as well
alpine wraith
funnily enough pvp seems more focused
lilac stag
So you’re basically doubling the specs
vale pine
minigame mode
alpine wraith
op things get nerfed fast
keen dome
I wonder if they have a design document or playbook or w/e or if it's just.. remembered stuff?
Must be a pretty fascinating area to work
alpine wraith
there is the joke sub always has that 1 week
i mean wow engine has to be demonic
it is a fully krangled C++ machine
vale pine
I wonder if they have a design document or playbook or w/e or if it's just.. rem...
even if they do, they break a lot of self claimed rules
lilac stag
funnily enough pvp seems more focused
I think that a few of them actually pvp still. Doubt that’s the case outside of heroic.
wispy bolt
times like this make me wanna get back to leetcode and apply to blizzard, but then I remember they pay half 🤡
vale pine
a lot of things that got removed or changed because they ended up problematic
keen dome
Yeah
vale pine
became part of other specs
or classes
there is a lack of consistency in the entire game
and i think its not the devs fault
but a consequence of how big the game is
wherever you look, you won't find a somewhat complete picture of the game
e.g. even between rogue specs
we don't agree on whats relevant or good
strong shoal
There's something really relevant you're missing fuu
Voting for #1262437829150113855 Entries
vale pine
damn, i thought you mean the spansih inquisition
strong shoal
Ahahahah my neighbours were mad back then
sinful sluice
can anyone confirm that BP 35% buff is not live? i wanna test it out but not sure how to due to lack of information regarding armor and stuff
alpine wraith
it is live
lilac stag
What is giving the impression that it’s not?
vale pine
can anyone confirm that BP 35% buff is not live? i wanna test it out but not sur...
its live
alpine wraith
the bug is with finality
but it does not matter that much
has to do with FW thingies too but for DS it is whatever because you use storm
it was more of a thing with trickster because you would not bp even with blades if you had few FW
sinful sluice
what is the best situation to use tornado? simc says with cds tho but not too sure
lilac stag
@vale pine just trying to remember the sequencing for ptr with snd. So there’s a bug with cttc, which means we are pressing snd in opener. If the bug gets fixed it’s a 3% dps loss.
All of the other changes for dot5 are a 3% ish gain in ST.
assuming cttc gets fixed the patch is literally a defensive nerf.
sweet summit
what is a good consistent dps to aim for before going to heroic raids ?
pastel rampart
what is a good consistent dps to aim for before going to heroic raids ?
assassination is a good consistent dps and very achievable if you already have a sub rogue
pastel rampart
me too but u said "good"
alpine wraith
the bug is not in cttc
sweet summit
i said good dps
alpine wraith
it is on supercharger
sweet summit
to aim for
alpine wraith
you just snd to not waste the proc
vale pine
what bug do you mean
alpine wraith
before going into sec tech
lilac stag
Ah. I misunderstood.
alpine wraith
the opener that is strike rupture storm snd vanish strike flag dance sec tech
vale pine
have no duration
so you can
stack them up pew pew
all stacks of it reset outside of the first 2
alpine wraith
then SoD just after the sec tech and get two evis charged
vale pine
so what you can do is
iron spear
to aim for
Just Sim your char for a 5min patchwork fight, then you know what would be the optimal possible dps for your char with your gear and then try to get as closs as possible to that number
alpine wraith
one of those is a DN one too
vale pine
use symbols once you get a battleress
and then have 2 supercharger charges at the start of the fight
and the damage gain is like 0.4 or 0.5% dps
nothing major
alpine wraith
in dungeons it will add app
alpine wraith
quite a bit
vale pine
you will always snd first hacha
sweet summit
god i hope we can stop pressing snd
vale pine
what is the storm for
wispy pebble
snd is out of my bar on wednesday and i wont be convinced to put it back in
alpine wraith
witness baseline does 100k dmg and storm aroud 30k
vale pine
so you get full cp
alpine wraith
yea that is to get the full cp sec tech
with flag
then when you evis you get snd high duration again
thankfully charger only gets spent on damaging finishers
alpine wraith
snd is delayed for 2 secs no way that wins vs 10 cp rupture
because wasting 7 cps on snd is weird
vale pine
would need to re-write the sequence to storm and snd later
lilac stag
Behold the power of SnD
vale pine
i just tested snd instead of evis
alpine wraith
i mean first we would need to introduce the bug
sinful sluice
this build is fun to play but its ST is way too dogshit 😦
alpine wraith
otherwise it will just evis
but then you krangle rupture
and then sec tech is not amped
nor the DN evis
sweet summit
this build is fun to play but its ST is way too dogshit 😦
i lowkey used this in raid today because i dont want to use shadowdust beacause shadowdust is kill 
sinful sluice
😢
sweet summit
😦 \
sinful sluice
idk why but storm - rupture - storm - rupture storm - rupture is so satisfying and fun
playing sub mustve fukced my brain or something
iron spear
I would not be surprised, if they do some big numeric buffs in the weeks after the rework.
hazy breach
this one kinda
The better one seems to be strike > flag > evis > vanish+strike > rupture > cds
Youre still getting all the value from supercharger but you dont need to waste a gcd casting snd
hazy breach
CDS in this case should be dance+symbols, then you strike > sectech > blades > keep going
And then you can hold of on your second dance for one or two gcds
And you can still fit sectech inside it
Its a bit scuffed but seems to be worthwhile
sinful sluice
this one kinda
Is this single target opener?
alpine wraith
Is this single target opener?
no read what eleem wrote
will try that one later seems cool
also pops more marks too
no waste
alpine wraith
yea eleem had shown the light just before
balmy garden
do we have any idea what 11.0.5 looks like for sub in terms of damage changes for ST/raid cleave?
hazy breach
do we have any idea what 11.0.5 looks like for sub in terms of damage changes fo...
Were cooking right as you speak, but a slight dps increase for ST atleast. Like 4% or so maybe?
But the gameplay has some rough edges
alpine wraith
yea the 5 min tries
have been
interesting
no shaman really makes things miserable
shy ermine
Were cooking right as you speak, but a slight dps increase for ST atleast. Like ...
Is this with bug fixes or without? Shadowed finishers etc
alpine wraith
no fixes
ornate wind
time to find out whether I lost all my ability to play sub since season 4 
bronze turret
Were cooking right as you speak, but a slight dps increase for ST atleast. Like ...
A dps increase over dust? New ER must be quite good then?
hazy breach
Supercharger is really good, but also -30s on blades is quite good, even with reduced duration
iron spear
time to find out whether I lost all my ability to play sub since season 4 <a:aSu...
I mean, the current build (dust) will stop existing with the next update, so...
bronze turret
Supercharger is really good, but also -30s on blades is quite good, even with re...
What we talking for supercharger
ornate wind
yeah but I wanna do some solo shuffle
iron spear
at the end of the day, always do whats fun for you, just letting you know, that if you start learning dust-sub now, it will be gone in the next patch
bronze turret
Next week*
bronze turret
Supercharger is really good, but also -30s on blades is quite good, even with re...
This could also be increased because of how shit the class tree options are for sub overall
hazy breach
Supercharger+deeper is locked in always
Tea is only slightly worse than cb, but both of those are way worse than the previous two
vale pine
ironically it had
we could play the entire general tree in 10.2
er wasn't bad, just not played
bronze turret
Well i am talking about meaningful dps choices
Compared to the other 2 rogue specs
Deeper is amazing, but thats it
ornate wind
I keep wanting to find room to justify gloomblade but I don't think I can
alpine wraith
because gloomblade is bad
ornate wind
but it's a cool shadow stab ;.;
bronze turret
ER reverb can be played as trickster
You can play any demonic combo, doesnt make it good
alpine wraith
oh true all our talents suck anyway
alpine wraith
You *can* play any demonic combo, doesnt make it good
nah tea is like super behind
er reverb is like less than 1% depending on gear
hazy breach
Imagine if supercharger buffed shadowed finishers 
void hound
whats the cd cadence gonna be like for the rework?
near rivet
sooo.... its not?
hazy breach
Supercharger darkest night evis is gonna have shadowed finisher be like 10% of the physical evis 
hazy breach
sooo.... its not?
Nop 
near rivet
not yet*
void hound
shadowed finisher not interacting with things, name a more iconic duo
near rivet
alpine wraith
i hate that talent so much
waste of space
same with FW being so uptime heavy it had to be nerfed so many times
alpine wraith
i mean old fw was 100 then 80 then this weird thing
brisk onyx
shadowed finisher not interacting with things, name a more iconic duo
I want to know if this is intentional or just some bugs 
hazy breach
Theyre definitely not intentional
iron spear
even if it is was a bug initially, if it never gets fixed, it basically became the expected default of how it is working now
hazy breach
Its just designed in a way where they have to manually add these new effects to the shadowed finishers as well as the regular finishers
cloud rover
hazy breach
So they just forget to do it because they shouldnt have to
alpine wraith
yea same as sec tech
not working with almost anything
they have homework from 2 years ago to make it work with bldes
vale pine
Compared to the other 2 rogue specs
don't think its that much better on the other 2
brisk onyx
vale pine
ofc i must say
its a bit weird
that assassination got an extra benefit added to subterfuge
while there was not even an attempt to make it good for sub
pastel rampart
So they just forget to do it because they shouldnt have to
me when i ask for a fee to develop a game as a live service and forgor to develop the game 💀
oopsie
bronze turret
don't think its that much better on the other 2
Well i said this during df beta
Both outlaw and assa got very deliberate and thought out interactions between class and talent tree via shadow dance
And now subterfuge
Sub has just looked at raw dps %, no significant interaction
A bug with CB created an interaction, but it was 99% community made
And basically an accident
So i have always felt the class tree has been poorly designed for sub
sly shore
while there was not even an attempt to make it good for sub
we don't have the energy economy to make it good 
pulsar mauve
New sub is live next reset right ? Is there a custom apl already ?
pastel rampart
+1 sec to dance duration (per point)
dw we got some duration on the first dance :D
(once)
vale pine
New sub is live next reset right ? Is there a custom apl already ?
its not live
it gets live with reset
vestal escarp
and subterfuge might be interessting
Dance with shadowcraft inactive is pointless
vale pine
wdym
vestal escarp
I thats what kbp was saying, without sod up you dont have enough energy to benefit of shadowdance
alpine wraith
because sf has been nerfed 6 times
no shit
and master of shadows
also kekw goremaw
vestal escarp
No energy economy
bronze turret
Master of shadows died in SL
alpine wraith
sub has been a make energy a problem
not solve
then solve it
then nerf so it is not solved
then fuck cdr
then solve it again
pastel rampart
auto proc thistle tea solves energy guys!!111!!11
alpine wraith
ah true buff assa and fire
ebon tiger
everyone's dooming. I'm not alone
alpine wraith
if you are in doubt
and nerf fury
because fuck them
i actually dont mind my enha overlords
but also fuck bm
only spec worse on m+ than us
deserved
vestal escarp
Gigadeserved
lilac stag
They get better in .5 though
vestal escarp
Bm hunter still stealing my pi tho
lilac stag
FDK getting the pi
pastel rampart
11.1 shadowdust returns
(as a pvp talent)
(xddd go back to backstabbing in pve)
alpine wraith
right now we are super backstabbing
and sometimes storming
you have 1 dance to use every 1:30 min in between
make it count!
vestal escarp
What i was saying is that rn dance works for us because we couple it with sod and craft
alpine wraith
yea imagine if we had 300 energy
and we could pool to blast some cool dance with energy heavy builders and finishers
nah
make energy irrelevant
strike evis strike evis
vestal escarp
The extra seconds of dance you night get from an interactive subterfuge might go wasted into waiting for energy to oress strike to even getting to 5 cps
native zodiac
Are we still using vanish as an offensive cd in .5? Just got to queen and before i swap to gnome i thougtht ill ask
alpine wraith
well taking into account you only have 1 dance in between cds
that one might as well not exist
alpine wraith
Are we still using vanish as an offensive cd in .5? Just got to queen and before...
yes but less important
vestal escarp
strike evis strike evis
Sure but when dance gameplay isnt like that it feels like shit
alpine wraith
but you wont be able to play sub as non gnome come reset
because you only have 1 vanish
enjoy
blizz knows that we are only worth some $
alpine wraith
yea rn you can vanish cloak vanish vanish i think
native zodiac
Thats tight af tho
We havent pulled queen yet but roots are at 0:16 and 2:16
Looking at timers
But i guess thats possible atm yeah
jaunty heath
simply kill this reset
if i was rogue dev i would add more vanishes and more shadowdusts and more resets
golden totem
yea rn you can vanish cloak vanish vanish i think
yea that's what I did until this reset
but last vanish scuff ur dps for a while
doesnt really matter for progress purposes tho
jaunty heath
what
aint no way im fucking vanishing 3 times
in queen
i mean i guess if you dont go far it doesnt matter
golden totem
raceswap gnome then
jaunty heath
i am a gnoooooooooooooooooome
native zodiac
but last vanish scuff ur dps for a while
So like vanish cloak vanish freedom would be perfect
Until next week i guess
golden totem
yes
you just have to delay ur opener to like, one or two gcd
and your vanish should be on time to free the first roots
having a freedom available to you is a big privilege tho
native zodiac
Alright perfect ty, ill put that to our sheet then
golden totem
depends on ur comp ofc but I did not have this one
native zodiac
Yeah we have 3 paladins in
golden totem
yeah but we're not the only ones needing it
depends on whos willing to play gnome xd
but priests are prio usually
native zodiac
They are covered already, they said i can have 1 freedom on the 4th already
We also have 2 hunters for dispells etc
Guess ill have a good life until reset 
teal night
I don't think they are confirmed yet.
alpine wraith
buff is working
ornate wind
For some reason I decided to get 300 classic engineering. Good use of my time 😛
vale lagoon
buff is working
oh, did we find out why the numbers aren't matching up then?
vale lagoon
the wowhead changelog still doesnt have the update in
...wait so are they just not in yet? straight up?
vale lagoon
oof
teal night
In all reality how far behind sin and outlaw will we be in terms of numbers? I am all for dooming but do we know what the numbers are yet?
left ledge
In all reality how far behind sin and outlaw will we be in terms of numbers? I a...
the problem isnt really the damage numbers
alpine wraith
my people about to find out next reset how it plays out
left ledge
the spec is going to play like garbage
keen dome
play more like garbage
left ledge
nah
left ledge
current gameplay isnt that bad
teal night
Haha
left ledge
im gonna stick with garbage
keen dome
Yeah, I'm being hyperbolic. It's fine and I still think the cttc change is good and the supercharger is good
left ledge
for possibly the worst gameplay sub will have seen in like 3-4 expacs
keen dome
We're just missing the je ne sais quoi to bring it all together
I have no idea what that would be though..
teal night
CDR
hazy breach
the wowhead changelog still doesnt have the update in
They do though
barren plume
Doooooom
hazy breach
You can see the old versions being 35% lower damage than the current version
hazy breach
The changes are in, its just something weird
barren plume
I can see that it’s still irrelevant @hazy breach
vale pine
all changes from blueposts
just one thing
the shadowstep talent replacement isn't on ptr
so its like... you get step and a 2nd charge of grapple
if you talent shadowstep
funny
barren plume
Don’t we already have 2 shadow steps
vale pine
its only on outlaw
the idea is
they get 2 charges grapple
but lose step
so they can -1 key bind
barren plume
Oh cool good for them
keen dome
It's a cool change that gives them more identity, although I agree that they are ultimately losing utility of step with it.
barren plume
Tell me more about my keysbind that all make me want to suck start my shotgun
left ledge
You can see the old versions being 35% lower damage than the current version
am i on the wrong black powder
ah
barren plume
Yes but it still sucks so no
left ledge
i see
edgy zenith
too bad it bugs 50% of the time on not flat ground 🙂
keen dome
I like grapple. It's fun to zoom about on and looks cool.
barren plume
I think we all think the change was a good idea, not pointing any fingers but it coulda been done better. I say this time we go without the change and next time we go full regalia
left ledge
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1295823201116491796/...
i meant the bp one
barren plume
Someone please understand my movie quote and appreciate how well it works
left ledge
yeah
there was just some discussion over whether it really got buffed or not
because it seems to still do no damage
keen dome
The needed to add a 0 to it
barren plume
because it seems to still do no damage
100x0 is still 0
vale pine
Bp was always a heavily undertuned spell
but s1/s2 DF
we could spam it and it did a bit more damage than now
because of more damage multipliers and higehr fw uptime
having the ability to spam does increase output ^^
barren plume
Why doesn’t bp have the dmg modified like CT does or our rupture give us %agi
vale pine
but other classes got more aoe/st from hero talents or tuning updates
barren plume
All things we will never know
vale pine
so the entire baseline also changed
whats currently good
is diffrent from how good things where back in df s1
kinda why i say its so hard to make comparison, damage is always relative to other classes and wow is ever changing
keen dome
I was thinking about how I'd try to approach the spec. I think something that could be fun is adding a charge system where every Dance gives you some kind of Shadow Charge. And when you get 5, you can do a Super Dance that massively buffs damage. But you could hold them and use them as needed. Playing around the fight and pushing much bigger damage at key moments, etc. Maybe have them also buff your abilities too? Someone mentioned it in here ages ago but SPriest insanity style mechanic for Sub Rogue is a cool diea.
Go further into Dance, into big burst windows, into finishers. Play around with that and having control to unleash big dam. Giving it more of a unset damage profile.
desert panther
!talent
teal night
There are plenty of things they could do to make the spec better they just don't? It's weird
edgy zenith
the mans crit both times and thinks the trinket is OP
wait until you don't crit lmao
trinket is soooo ass imo and I've only been using it 1 day
just go contract, not worth it
also why the fuck can on-use trinkets crit
and why are they sometimes affected by damage amps from your spec
keen dome
spaghetti
hazy breach
and why are they _sometimes_ affected by damage amps from your spec
They shouldnt be
They purposefully removed all of the things that buffed trinkets in aberrus
vivid cobalt
lingering shadow buffs it lol
hazy breach
Theyve just added new things that do affect it afterwards because the way their system for this works is not great
hazy breach
lingering shadow buffs it lol
Yes, and it shouldnt
vale pine
I was thinking about how I'd try to approach the spec. I think something that co...
maybe sth like this, but would probably re-work a lot more talents then
edgy zenith
they need to just buff the damage of all on-use trinkets by 50% and remove the chance to crit
keen dome
Yeah, something like that'd be pretty solid I think, @vale pine
edgy zenith
then on-use trinkets are no longer cringe
keen dome
That'd honestly be pretty fun to play.
left ledge
nah
vale pine
because of point economy
vale lagoon
its not that good
one of the people with green names did some math yesterday tho
vale lagoon
said the damage of BP isn't matching up
left ledge
and aoe spec
hazy breach
Thats not exactly what i said
vale lagoon
interessting
the guy with the pink discord icon
left ledge
Thats not exactly what i said
he's talking about armin
hazy breach
But yes bp seems to be doing less than simc suggest, cant figure out why though
vale pine
assa is the execute spec
yes, its a bit of a meme for sure
vale lagoon
said when he initially declared that the dmg matched up, his math didn't include crit or something? i forgot specifics im sorry
left ledge
how are you guys even testing btw
hazy breach
Hit dummy
hazy breach
What
barren plume
Go back to whatever you were playing you don’t want no part of this shit Dewey cox
hazy breach
Why does your ilvl a few weeks ago matter
vale lagoon
Thats not the issue
is there something else just reducing the dmg of bp again perhaps?
i didn't fully understand what the other guy said about his math tbh, im not very bright
vale pine
we doing this?
i don't think replicating is bad
removing deepening is not bad, if we get static cds
shy ermine
I’m not playing replicating in single target as long as that bug exists
Costs far more combo points than it’s worth
vestal escarp
i don't think replicating is bad
red: priority change, severely underpowered for it's spot/big change needed
yellow: change without priority, somewhat underpowered, in need of nice to have change
we all basically think the same of replicating: if it stays it needs to do it's job way better
vale pine
it also has a annoying bug
vivid cobalt
they should remove shadowcraft and give us an on use fangs of the father proc
vale lagoon
they should remove shadowcraft and give us an on use fangs of the father proc
okay grandpa
altho it WAS a cool effect
vivid cobalt
lol well i didnt really mean the wings and shit but the finishers not consuming combo points for 6 sec is just way nicer than shadowcraft
if u could use it as a cd
fickle mason
do we think sub will be competitive for m+ .5 patch? or staying the same?
vivid cobalt
u would play ds instead of trickster tho right
formal helm
surely we get at least aura buff 
alpine wraith
yea trickster is super dead
vivid cobalt
with trickster dust it felt like there was still a pretty decent use case for sub in m+ but after patch i feel like its officially griefing to not just go assa 😦
formal helm
it's griefing even now kinda
mint swift
What happened with trickster
formal helm
you're giving up so much dmg
alpine wraith
it does less dmg
formal helm
average sub dps this week (according to archon) is like 1.2m
and assa is 1.7m
🤷
but sub >> assa gameplay for me so
formal helm
idk, depending on keys I can do up to 1.5m
that's my highest so far
usually hovering over there around 1.2m tho
mint swift
Tbh I remember switching from sub to assa and my gameplay just became more enjoyable and damage got better
fickle mason
How can they realistically fix it? Just increase the cleave damage or cleave more targets? The ST seems almost there I think.
fallow nimbus
Trickster aoe tuning would be buffing/fixing nimble as a starter
Like real 50% not reduced by armor again etc.
mint swift
Sub buff: make it more subtle and sneaky
formal helm
Like real 50% not reduced by armor again etc.
it's 40% rn
vale pine
What happened with trickster
It looks bad atm but we still cook
formal helm
tooltip says 50% but it's not
mint swift
Yea cause for now I’m just assa main
formal helm
and yeah, not reduced by shit would be kinda nice
mint swift
Going fatebound for shiz n giggles
fickle mason
Can we get like 300 rogues to cry to blizzard like BM hunters to get some action
fair anchor
We can't there is not 300 sub rogues total
fickle mason
On my road they only fixed it after like we had 8 neighbors complain LOL
round latch
We can't there is not 300 sub rogues total
funny but probably factual
formal helm
Can we get like 300 rogues to cry to blizzard like BM hunters to get some action
okay but there's like 30k bm hunters
and there's like
200 rogues
sub rogs*
hazy breach
Ret pala hs more players than Bm these days
oak ice
hey guys, i want to try learning sub for two last boss of NW
should i go full st build right ?
was reading the guide rn, do i go trickster or DS ?
round latch
yeah there is no reason to go cleave/aoe its just the two bosses
oak ice
and sorry if it's being a stupid question
but since Secret technique hits on a delay
do i macro cold blood at start or after ability ? like
/cast coldblood
/ cast st ?
round latch
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.u can always have it binded but its up to you friend 🙂
round latch
you are welcome fam
vale pine
since we not taking the tea on st build
you can play it in m+, but we won't use tea in 11.0.5
wise badger
My groups do better when I play sub instead of assa tho
I do more dps as asa
but way more st as sub
And my keys always get fucked in bosses
trim ridge
shouldnt assa be higher in st after the changes of last week?
wise badger
maybe I'm just bad as asa
But I'm guessing combats are not too long and that's why I do more as sub
vernal mirage
isnt switching between assa and sub kinda hard cuz of stats priority ?
violet torrent
I'm a mega mastery vers sub/sin player lol
wise badger
Best for sub would be vers I think
vernal mirage
yeee and assa needs haste, right ?
wise badger
But yeah my gear is mastery > versa/crit
trim ridge
nope
wise badger
Well my sim was simming 14 agi > 10.9 versa > 10.1 mastery as sub
sullen hare
yeee and assa needs haste, right ?
not really no
teal night
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
clear aspen
Anyone know the name of the site that showed what the top parsed people used and at what time
abilities wise
used to be linked back in amirdrissal
sacred yarrow
wowanalyzer.com maybe?
clear aspen
not that, i believe it start with the letter "L" and ended with io
topaz raptor
Lorrgs
small crown
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
valid ledge
random question who do dks share tier with again?
weary saffron
dh warlock
pliant topaz
hes in mexico now
with mrs oxi
IT SHOLDA BEEN ME IN MEXICO WITH HIM AAAAAAAAAAAA
vague oar
Is there a pin/sims or anything written about how the .5 patch is gonna impact us?
pliant topaz
soon
vague oar
Hope we're not donkey after the update 
jaunty umbra
we're goat
vague oar
low gull
hes in mexico now
big things I see
vale lagoon
It looks bad atm but we still cook
sir what are we cooking exactly
keen dome
A nice big stew
vale lagoon
i'd love to see some ideas in M+ for next patch
keen dome
What kind of food would Sub rogue be?
vale lagoon
or some conclusive statements on whether the BP buff is working
hazy breach
it is working
vale pine
sir what are we cooking exactly
for balance between hero talents
hazy breach
It does 35% more
soft summit
yea trickster is super dead
Why is it dead? What have they done to it? Or was DS just buffed ?
vale pine
sir what are we cooking exactly
basically, we are in the process of updating the sim apl to 11.0.5 and try to find more dps for each hero talent
vale lagoon
It does 35% more
so yesteday Armin's discovery is nothing?
vale pine
also make sure the sim is correctly reflecting bugs
and maybe look if there are more bugs
vale lagoon
right now tho i rly do feel like there's something wrong with the BP buff
like I'm barely doing 5 million dps on pulls like the 1st lust pull of NW/AK
and my friends arent at the level of completely statchecking 11s yet, not like mobs are insta dying
onyx hare
like I'm barely doing 5 million dps on pulls like the 1st lust pull of NW/AK
what does this have to do with BP other than “I feel like I should do more”
Our spec sucks, your gona get gapped by better specs in those pulls
vale lagoon
what does this have to do with BP other than “I feel like I should do more”
bcuz around 5 mil is also my damage on trickster
please don't try to be hostile with me in that way, i'm not here to pick fights
hazy breach
so yesteday Armin's discovery is nothing?
Thats not what he was saying
He was saying its doing less than it should
alpine wraith
might be unlucky fw things
hazy breach
Not that the buff wasnt 35%
vale lagoon
Not that the buff wasnt 35%
...so BP is going less damage than it should after a 35% buff, but it isn't caused by the buff not bieng 35%?
I'm sorry if I don't know as much as I should about how these numbers work
keen dome
I think the point is it was buffed by 35%. And then it's also not doing the damage it should be doing anyway, as I understand it?
hazy breach
Its not like its doing half the damage it should
its at most like 10%
But not even sure if thats the case
brisk onyx
vale pine
Common questions:
- Is the Black Powder buff working?
Yes, the buff went live with last weeks reset. - What about 11.0.5?
Patch Notes:
-# New Talent: Supercharger
-# Soothing Darkness nerfed by 50%
-# Feint causes no GCD
-# Cheap shot now lasts 2 sec longer
-# Shadowdust and Sepsis removed
-# First dance now gives +4 sec of Shadow dance after spending 6 seconds out of combat
-# Replacement for Dust is a two point talent giving +1 Symbols charge per point
-# Coup now gives cdr on dance
Is the change good?
Numerical, slight buff.
Gameplay seems good too.
Supercharger?
Gives +2 combo points on your next 2 finishers after using Symbols of Death, it is rly good.
Talents?
We will always use Cold Blood, Deeper Stratagem and Supercharger in the General tree.
It currently looks like we play Rotten - Trickster but still in progress of working out details.
Bugs?
There are a lot of bugs, which would be good if fixed.
Further its interesting to see Blade Flurry on Outlaw getting quality of life improvements to the talent, but not nimble on Subtlety(the spells are functional identical).
🗨️ More information
simulations closer to patch.
onyx hare
^this says the replacement for sepsis is the SoD charges, but that’s actually in Dusts spot no?
Not that it matters rly
vale pine
yes
fixed
i didn't copy/paste the entire patch note, just wrote the important changes
round latch
i didn't copy/paste the entire patch note, just wrote the important changes
new pins 
left ledge
I love this spec 
Bro the fact that
We have bp question in common questions
Holy shit
lilac stag
People that desperate to not acknowledge how bad that actual spec is.
left ledge
We sinned as sub rogue players
We should have never asked for a rework
Take us back to gloomblade and helicopter spam
tepid trellis
mirror mirror on the wall, will this raid drop any zenith loot at all (it wont)
vale lagoon
its at most like 10%
oooo so just a little bit lower! ty ty
left ledge
mirror mirror on the wall, will this raid drop any zenith loot at all (it wont)
We actually high rolled zenith this week
We never see zenith
tepid trellis
i have 0 mythic
tepid trellis
im 627
left ledge
Same
tepid trellis
i love it
left ledge