I don't want to learn assass
#subtlety
slate nest
slate nest
Gameplay still shit tho
hazy breach
Out of all the changes to be upset about the first dance is certainly not one of them
Its a good change
lilac stag
way less shit than subs
slate nest
I like sub more, maybe bcs I play sub since legion but who knows xd
hazy breach
Supercharger and first dance are both cool and interesting
haughty mural
idk about first dance
lilac stag
I also prefer sub. Doesn’t change the point that we’re krangled and likely getting even more knotted up
haughty mural
supercharger i'll give you that
slate nest
wait wait, I'm just reading pin, is deathstalker better for m+?
lilac stag
Supercharger seems nice, it’s also a general rogue talent. TFD isn’t exciting to me. Nore any of the sub specific changes.
hazy breach
idk about first dance
Its a good m+ talent, we need more of those
haughty mural
but 6 seconds is too long
hazy breach
Way better than old first dance
haughty mural
hard to sell my team to wait 6 seconds for me
hazy breach
Dont
fallow nimbus
2 secs like stealth cd maybe
haughty mural
Way better than old first dance
agreed
hazy breach
Also a lot of times youre already waiting more than 6s between packs
Like in dawnbreaker
alpine wraith
you dont need to have it always on all pulls to be good
slate nest
Actually, new first dance seems better than the one we have in game now that I look at it
lilac stag
On the surface, the likelihood of playing sub over assa in keys seems pretty slim. Idk. Tuning
hazy breach
Also +4 seconds of dance is really strong
haughty mural
this is true
hazy breach
The talent is almost beating weaponmaster in a standard ST sim
slate nest
On the surface, the likelihood of playing sub over assa in keys seems pretty sli...
we can't compete with 12 seconds of aoe silence from improved garrotte xd
hazy breach
Its not 12 seconds of aoe silence
slate nest
6 each time
hazy breach
No
slate nest
No?
hazy breach
6 first time, 3 second time, 1.5 after that
hazy breach
Assuming you use garrote 3 times, which you wouldnt
slate nest
I mean idk most people dont have 2 vanishes as I looked on rio
So only twice
anyways, Eleem you're here, you have a pin saying that deathstalker might be performing better on bigger aoe and st? so it should be better on m+?
fallow nimbus
That pin is about bp and soon old news
slate nest
True but still, is it better to just spam keys with DS or Trickster?
alpine wraith
yea in 1 week trickster is dead dead
trickster should be worse rn too on overall dmg
hazy breach
Deathstalker should be better
alpine wraith
but yea that
fallow nimbus
In m+
slate nest
I'm too stubborn to swap to sin xd
fallow nimbus
Or in general?
lilac stag
You’re legit inting
hazy breach
But ye the other deathstalker is probably better 
slate nest
I want to make sub work in m+, that's the only thing i want legit xd
lilac stag
I’m all for making stuff work. The difference is so astronomical there’s zero reason
lilac stag
For a tank
fallow nimbus
Crit/mast gear and peerless missives for recrafts are ready
vale pine
but 6 seconds is too long
the 6 sec requirement should be removed
lilac stag
Leave it in for pvp if that is the concern
lilac stag
Trigger it off vanish so you can use in raid.
haughty mural
if the requirement is completely removed, i can maybe work with vanish and has uses in raids
alpine wraith
also even in raid thx to some mechanics it might be worth to just vanish and stay
fair anchor
Idk i tested this week deathstalker in M+ i was embarassed how little damage it did
fair anchor
Is it tho ?
lilac stag
also even in raid thx to some mechanics it might be worth to just vanish and sta...
Eleem said doesn’t work in raid cause combat
alpine wraith
if you are only used to trickster yea
alpine wraith
Eleem said doesn’t work in raid cause combat
ah unlucky
fair anchor
It's just rupture spread, BP spam, DN when up no ?
slate nest
Is there a diff rotation for deathstalker? I know you spam BP instead of evis but opener still the same no?
slate nest
wait maybe wowhead has me covered on that
sweet summit
shit sound like a joi
lilac stag
Nice WA you got there
alpine wraith
for dungeons you can vanish early as pull is about to end
and get the ticker fast to 6
vale pine
so the 6 sec requirement is just making sure its worse than regular stealth requireing talents
alpine wraith
but it would only be worth on the cd thingies
and only every 3 mins kinda i guess
unless cdr week
lilac stag
you need to get out of combat - 10 secs
It’s just 6 seconds. The 10 is pvp
hazy breach
idk even with 6 seconds youre gonna get a decent amount of uses per dungeon
vale pine
idk even with 6 seconds youre gonna get a decent amount of uses per dungeon
yes but my point is it adds extra constraints for no reason
hazy breach
yes
The reason they didnt put it on vanish is because they want to phase out the power of stealth/vanish, now why they would want to do that and simultanously make subterfuge+ic+ma twice as good is beyond me
lilac stag
I know. TFD should have you draw rune patterns in the ground for the buff. 
hazy breach
You'll just play tfd and not think about it
lilac stag
hard to play TFD when 
waiting on 20% aura buff to sub
There spec is fixed. Enjoy. -Bliz
alpine wraith
ww had a funny moment
worst spec for haste
introduce hands talent
now one of the best
lilac stag
They got the max rub
vale pine
The reason they didnt put it on vanish is because they want to phase out the pow...
i mean
the first dance rework is kinda the same
its a stealth requirement
vale pine
yes
hazy breach
Nothing to do with stealth
glacial hinge
at this point do we play DS on every encounter on raid?
formal flame
Hi, what mastery/vers/crit stats i shall aim for? What is soft cap? Thank you
lilac stag
just sim gear
lilac stag
Ilvl wins usually
near rivet
alpine wraith
not even enha or dh open way higher
vestal escarp
"hey guys thank you for inviting me in this key im playing as sub rog, yes i know im a bottom performing spec but if you could be so kind to wait 6s between each pack it would help me, also dont blast everything while i'm dotting around tyty"
alpine wraith
i had a funny situation today with fury warr and ret
where i was top dps because they used their cds always on the same pack
then i used it on the one after
it was so funny
vestal escarp
ret doesnt have cds
alpine wraith
well it seemed like it
vestal escarp
wings are up each pack
alpine wraith
so he just sucked
well not that much he still did 1.4 mil
next week engi helmet pog https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dMpyckAxrSRUNxqybjz7ae
narrow oak
So every thing waits for symbols
sly shore
The FAQ has links to wowhead
as well as other guides
but it's changing in a week anyway with the new patch
but the fundamentals stay the same
line cd's up
alpine wraith
yes with first dance it is actually fine on opener
but on 1;30 min it is going to be funny
you need to use sec tech first gcd of dance
to have it on last 3 secs of the second one
if you are unlucky you dont have it before last gcd
sullen hare
That's cursed
vestal escarp
A lot
alpine wraith
but on st first dance is a bit of a dps loss vs wm
but to have the first smooth opener i would take it anyway
vestal escarp
Even normal dances outside shb are a bit sketchy, sometine you gotta builder 3 times to get to dn
Unlucky shadowcraft
But it completely kills your dance
alpine wraith
there is 1 normal dance between cds
maybe you pool some sht
and begin dance with a finisher
vale pine
the problem is, we now optimize to get one more dance charge every big cooldown window
which isn't fun
lilac stag
I'm really curious to see how badly downtime wrecks the windows
lilac stag
but getting stuff back
vale pine
yes, but if you have longer downtimes
lilac stag
idk trying to picture it in my head
vale pine
its again whatever
sinful sluice
hows Acidic Attendant's Loop for sub ring?
alpine wraith
funny thing is with SoD having more than one charge without usind SoD
sinful sluice
vers / mastery seems quite good
alpine wraith
you can send sec tech on cd kinda
and use the krangled dance after on next sec tech when it has like 15-20 secs
as long as you have it for the next set of flag blades
the BoE ring is very good yes
bis kinda
prisma stump
!FUU
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
sinful sluice
tyty
lilac stag
vers / mastery seems quite good
It’s a fine ring for sub or assa
sinful sluice
what should be my next upgrade?
ive got 19% crit 4% haste 24% vers 55% mastery. transmitter is fully upgraded tho
alpine wraith
get mythic gear kinda
alpine wraith
if possible yes next week is also a craft week so you can craft a ring or helmet
alpine wraith
well for you it would be the week of the 24th
lilac stag
Gonna buy the shoulders. Can cata next week.
night ruin
!craft
lilac stag
Pins.
gilded ferry
!up
wicked joltBOT
fathom escarp
im thinking of getting a rogue alt for funsies but not very attracted to assa as a playstyle, is sub terrible in m+ or simply overshadowed
alpine wraith
yea it is worse than assa
tribal blade
im thinking of getting a rogue alt for funsies but not very attracted to assa as...
sub and sin are quite literally polar opposites in M+
void hound
overall data is really misleading
tribal blade
sub is the least played spec by a mile and is really clunky with low throughput
void hound
sub is still competitive for the harder bosses (ansurek and silken court)
azure mauve
just realized
tribal blade
sin is super meta and does really good damage
void hound
although it could use a buff
lucid beacon
Yea but I want to be number one
azure mauve
how is sub going to work on mythic silke court
tepid trellis
how is sub going to work on mythic silke court
you are gonna be missing cds on 2 amps more than you do now
azure mauve
welp...
azure mauve
time to not play sub i guess
lucid beacon
Cdr with combo points on flagellation
sacred yarrow
we lost another soldier 🫡
lucid beacon
F
sacred yarrow
the dozens of us meme is starting to become all too real
lucid beacon
Yea there's only like
tepid trellis
no more cdr shit man, they clearly cannot tune it for the life of them
lucid beacon
3k sub players
tepid trellis
just get rid of it
tribal blade
well the good thing is the less people play sub the more it's in their faces that they need to do something about it
lucid beacon
Cdr so strong
tribal blade
no more cdr shit man, they clearly cannot tune it for the life of them
agreed cdr is a bullshit mechanic for sub
keen dome
Static cooldowns plz
tribal blade
you can't sectec whenever it's off cd
tribal blade
so it's literally pointless for sub to have cdr
lucid beacon
Lol a third dance charge?
lilac stag
Go back to outlaw with that cdr shit
sacred yarrow
well the good thing is the less people play sub the more it's in their faces tha...
and their fix is to increased sub dmg by 35% (again)
tribal blade
nah we don't need more dances
steel horizon
Cdr feels shit when you cant even generate cp in ST outside of dance
tribal blade
we need core mechanics fixed
yeah the cdr as it currently works is just a punishment that requires 100% uptime for optimal rotation
lilac stag
gonna feel even worse with sectech cdr in a week
tribal blade
i have to say playing sin so much recently, it's so nice to move off my target and know everything's gonna be fine
lucid beacon
I feel like our capstone talents suck
lilac stag
try the majority of the talents suck
tribal blade
we have a mixture of completely useless talents, talents with very low % increases, and absolutely 100% mandatory talents
vestal escarp
All classes lost long arms
tribal blade
losing acro is kinda different
that was aimed at making all melee more equal
even though some melee are still able to attack from range
lilac stag
if they actually fixed the sub talents and outlaw talents I don’t think people would be focused on losing acro. Could be wrong.
tribal blade
if they actually fixed the sub talents and outlaw talents I don’t think people w...
imagine having good choice in the sub tree
lilac stag
it’s just one more kick in the nuts
tribal blade
like sin does
vestal escarp
Yeah thats it we have more pressing stuff atm than acro
tepid trellis
what blizz doesent seem to get with cdr on stuff and durations, is that they need to leave wiggle room to allow for mistakes, and for it to not feel like shit, but they keep doing the fucking upposite everytime they get the chance
lucid beacon
I agree
lilac stag
imagine having good choice in the sub tree
Assa on bloodbound was sooooo chill. Crushed boss dmg and kept up with our havoc who was rocking adds
tribal blade
Assa on bloodbound was sooooo chill. Crushed boss dmg and kept up with our havoc...
i think i still perform better on bloodbound as sub, but i agree
super chill
lucid beacon
I don't thinkna simple %dmg increase would help anything
lilac stag
it wouldn’t
lucid beacon
Like the talent
lilac stag
Except to give more copium
vestal escarp
You would just forrce frustrating gameplay becaus it's overtuned
tribal blade
the big problem is if blizz truly wanted to fix sub they would have to devote a LOT of time to it
lucid beacon
But from memory I know it's complete hogwash
tribal blade
it would be a major rework
tepid trellis
would help my prog a bit if sub got like an 8% buffer
wont fix the issues
but it will help me feel less shit for playing it
vestal escarp
it would be a major rework
Completely redesign like 12-13 talents yeah
tribal blade
Completely redesign like 12-13 talents yeah
and redesigning a bunch of core stuff too
and how the spec operates
lilac stag
I rather be enjoying sub, especially in keys but fuck I’m so over what we have to deal with
lucid beacon
I also lole being underdog spec
Cause when I shit on kids
It's like "damn even I beat you"
tribal blade
so i suffered playing sub throughout S2+3 DF to get title with it which was really hard
vestal escarp
and redesigning a bunch of core stuff too
Talents have a major role in that, of the baseline spec only shadow techniques got changed
keen dome
Sub feeling like I'm actively trolling keys makes the game a lot less fun, that's for sure.
I know I'm only AotC / Portal level player, but it's just not a good feeling.
tribal blade
Talents have a major role in that, of the baseline spec only shadow techniques g...
yeah i think half our talents need to be reworked
it's crazy
vestal escarp
Yup
Stuff like fine tuning dmg profile and spec pace could all come from talents redesign
lilac stag
I’m actually curious if there’s some shenanigans on assa with lingering and MA after the patch using Madqueen
vestal escarp
Towards the current direction
lucid beacon
I'm sending a ticket
vestal escarp
MA looks to be very strong
lucid beacon
Dw guys
tribal blade
i'm honestly not looking forward to playing around MA windows, but looks interesting
vestal escarp
Im more hyped for new Ttk
tribal blade
the change to that talent is kinda bonkers
vestal escarp
Overlapping a powerful buff like evennon during cds is nuts
KB ramps faster and ticks stronger for longer
keen dome
I feel particually stupid today: MA?
tribal blade
wait so i don't fully get it, does it overlap as in double the effect, or double the duration
tribal blade
I feel particually stupid today: MA?
master assassin
tribal blade
the + crit from stealth 😉
vestal escarp
Effect overlaps for their fixed duration
keen dome
Yeah!
tribal blade
oh that's so sick
vestal escarp
You an have small windows of 2-3s of 90% poison application
tribal blade
JESUS
keen dome
lilac stag
CB could also be interesting
tribal blade
and you're getting more big envenoms off from that 1 poison
fallow nimbus
Like how is that even fair in anyway?
haughty mural
its not
tribal blade
bro you see what we mean, they put so much thought into other specs talents
and then when it comes to sub it's just dogshit
keen dome
I just look at underhanded upper hand
vestal escarp
Like i mean
vestal escarp
Sin got stronger interaction for the without a trace path for free this patch
Outlaw was already functioning on it regardless
And sub doesnt want to touch it
tribal blade
they still have yet to make subterfuge actually function with sub
vale pine
what blizz doesent seem to get with cdr on stuff and durations, is that they ne...
+1 this
vestal escarp
But no sin had to have interaction in that part of the tree
tribal blade
not the spec that is based around stealth surely
fallow nimbus
Ngl the only way out is removing cdr at this point
tepid trellis
+1 this
literally have pulls on silken court where i get fucked with cdr so i cant do the cooldown sequence i wanan do
its so shit
vestal escarp
You could copy paste from other functional 45s\90s specs in the game and do a decent job even
sweet wyvern
so I was about to ask if sub is playable/enjoyable, but 1 min of reading the recent comments gave me an answer xD
tepid trellis
its playable
vale pine
literally have pulls on silken court where i get fucked with cdr so i cant do th...
ye, i mentioned it in discussions a few time
azure mauve
but losing cdr whether it is a good change or not, you are now a worse version of sin
tepid trellis
i had to actually just naked symbols more than id want to
vale pine
trickster 3x dance/secret is also too tight currently
vestal escarp
The burst dmg isnt even that high to compensate for it
vale lagoon
...why are we talking about getting rid of cdr
that shit was fire with the 1 dance build
tribal blade
so I was about to ask if sub is playable/enjoyable, but 1 min of reading the rec...
it might honestly be fine if you're newer to the spec with rose tinted glasses, but those of us who've been playing it a long time are jaded now
vestal escarp
If you're afk 2 sods to ensure dust cds you're not keeping up
vale pine
so I was about to ask if sub is playable/enjoyable, but 1 min of reading the rec...
its not terrible
sweet wyvern
i have played sub in shadowlands season two and three, and I tried to play it in raid and did much poorer than on assa - might be a skill issue though
lilac stag
it’s not forgiving. Assa tuned a bit better
tepid trellis
...why are we talking about getting rid of cdr<:pepehands:757566347558387803> th...
sometimes its okay to be wrong
that shit was literally the most boring version of sub rogue ive ever played
azure mauve
ye lets go back to s3 shadowlands sub ropgue
lilac stag
And would suck in keys more than we do now
vestal escarp
With tier set roulette yeah
vestal escarp
Yeah that
lucid beacon
Aoe shadowstrike would be so strong
But then you never use Black Powder
Even now I feel like I don't use black powder that often
tribal blade
Aoe shadowstrike would be so strong
with how sub is currently tuned this is the kind of power we need to bump us up
vale lagoon
that shit was literally the most boring version of sub rogue ive ever played
oof i was wondering why blizz nuked our spec after s1 lol
lucid beacon
Yeanpotentially
tepid trellis
aoe shadowstriking
hoenstly worst part was the 2p
vale lagoon
was THIS our attitude to the one time we were viable?
tepid trellis
the amount of dmg it coudl add with good rng
tribal blade
the rng aspect was the cancer part
lucid beacon
But it's cannibalizing the rest of the spec
tribal blade
so if you got more procs>more cps for more finishers>more procs>etc etc
tepid trellis
was THIS our attitude to the one time we were viable?
where have you been the last 4 years?
lucid beacon
It's that much of a difference?
Bro I just full send
Feel like coup has put me in danger more
tribal blade
It's that much of a difference?
you lose quite a bit
5 stacks of flawless form is 15% finisher dmg
graceful crown
that feeling when you go in front of a target, trying not to tp behind them with shadowstrike, but it still sends you behind the target into the swirlies, dying instantly
tribal blade
you're playing trickster so the boss can't parry you, just stand on the tank
graceful crown
tribal blade
this is the tech
as trickster
stand on the tank the entire time that boss
you'll always be in the correct position for everything
graceful crown
you'll always be in the correct position for everything
except backstab 
tribal blade
except backstab <:cryWhy:908825664973574184>
haha backstab damage
graceful crown
haha backstab damage
im living my true london rp experience
tribal blade
i think you probably gain more dps from not losing uptime
by standing on tank
also the adds book it to the tank and everyone runs the adds over
so you're in postion to immediately start cleaving
half galleon
graceful crown
tbh my downtime is horrendous, working on it, and ever since i have my dps has improved exponentially
life hack
dont dodge
AHHAHA
tribal blade
tbh my downtime is horrendous, working on it, and ever since i have my dps has i...
yeah this is a big thing about playing sub right now
it's literally playing the uptime game
and doing virtually anything and everything to maintain high uptime
graceful crown
also dancing more often than just waiting on symbol
cuz your dance and st reset anyways
if you are in combat
i used to wait
on symbols
all the ite
time*
vale lagoon
where have you been the last 4 years?
were we topping leaderboards during SL? Because I remember we started legion pretty bad, lost dfa for some reason, then crashed and burned in BFA lol.
vale lagoon
is it like this tier where all the rwf guilds use us but then we jsut fall off as everyone else start parsing in mythic...
tepid trellis
well you will pretty much always see atleast 1 rogue in
due to atrophic
but this is the first tier in quite a while where rogue isnt very very strong
alpine wraith
season 2 we were kicked because of raid cds but yea on normal prog it was fine
twilit phoenix
in s3 we were good in prog thx to daggers
nicker of time?
modest river
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
twilit phoenix
oh shit my bad didn't see the SL note
tepid trellis
season 2 all 3 rogue specs where in the top 5
alpine wraith
yea but we were not brung to bosses because other classes were better although most guilds had reason to field them
because they cant craft perfect comp
nor should they
tepid trellis
pieces ran a rogue on sylv
alpine wraith
yea it was fine
tepid trellis
they ran 2x rogues on guardian
alpine wraith
i mean same thing happened on WoD and cata
not every guild had the other big boi specs
and rogue still did decent dmg
alpine wraith
their choice yea
some guilds even had rogues in denathrius
or high king
we cant go and yell at them YOU ARE NOT USING PERFECT COMPO REEEEEEEEEEE
also rogue players are made diff
haughty mural
based
alpine wraith
or well we could but to what purpose
wow is an easy game in the end and we dont have enough players for it to be super competitive at the high end
i still enjoy rwf tho
brave escarp
guys is it best to use the Transmitter on flagellation or after that with shadow blades?
tepid trellis
you wanna proc the stats on your sectech cast
azure mauve
wow is an easy game in the end and we dont have enough players for it to be supe...
if ez game then why people not good
including me
brave escarp
you wanna proc the stats on your sectech cast
aha! thanks
gilded ferry
including me
im gonna punch you in the face right now nairda
brave escarp
it dropped from lfr and its still 2.3% increase according to raidbots omg that trinket
azure mauve
im gonna punch you in the face right now nairda
?
brave escarp
already did
gilded ferry
everytime i go to see the talents in wcl because i keep forgetting i see your name in the first page
since SL
azure mauve
thats just farm kills yuo should me on prog kills and high keys
inting left and right
gilded ferry
sacrificing yourself in prog is the way to go
for cosmic reasons the dumbest shit happens in the first kill
brave escarp
Okay i have anotehr question about the transmitter trinket - since the guild gears up several people, IU presume champion track wouldnt be trat big of an upgrade, but if i have a veteran transmitter, how much dps do i lose if i pass a heroic transmitter to a guildie
azure mauve
only the computers can answer that
gilded ferry
Okay i have anotehr question about the transmitter trinket - since the guild gea...
you can sim that difference
keen dome
I've yet to see a transmitter drop so I don't believe it actually exists.
keen dome
Yes please I would like to call the imp and file a complaint with him
gilded ferry
i have two
didnt you lose 2
tepid trellis
have 1 hc and 1 mythic one
keen dome
Haha
keen dome
I've been doing Heroic Ky'veza every week, and she has yet to drop it once in loot pool. It's really funny.
brave escarp
how can i add a costum item in raidbots? @gilded ferry
gilded ferry
gilded ferry
no problem bud
vale lagoon
but this is the first tier in quite a while where rogue isnt very very strong
rogue or sub lol
and are we talking raid only
it's 100% mb for forgetting to specify that part
tepid trellis
im only talking about raid
brave escarp
id spit ball at 10-15k
veteran to heroic is 50k dps difference
according to just sim
vale lagoon
yeah i think that's why my perception is very different, not much of a raider lol
tepid trellis
being a part of the god comp is reserved for casters in m+
Aug has ruined m+ balancing
hazy breach
but this is the first tier in quite a while where rogue isnt very very strong
It wasnt that strong in aberrus either tbf, but probably a bit stronger than currently
vale lagoon
Aug has ruined m+ balancing
but like, before df s1 when aug wasn't a thing
when was the last time sub wasn't int in keys lol
shuriken combo and dfa?
tepid trellis
season two of SL
was the last time it was played, it was also good in DF season 1
and was very very good at the start of season 2
but then the 0.5 patch happened
and killed it
cuz aug
tepid trellis
yeh just until they are required to live
gilded ferry
stealthi are you playing sin atm?
tepid trellis
no
gilded ferry
viva la revolucion
vale lagoon
but then the 0.5 patch happened
was that when they also killed the 1 dance build lol
i missed a lot of df actually as we went downhill
vale pine
just showcases how something op can overshadow everything else
cursive vapor
!wa
fallow bone
do we have any clarity on what things will look like next week with dust removal? seems like a major change
alpine wraith
scroll up a bit
every few hours have have a little rant
about how shit it is going to be
sacred yarrow
I'm excited for the changes, for better or worse, it spices up things
fallow bone
is it as bonkers as it seems? just removing a fundamental talent with nothing to replace it?
keen dome
Just think how big that one crit we get will be
spark tusk
barren plume
Yea next week we get shit on
vestal escarp
and i bet it's gonna come with a shitty vault
alpine wraith
yea that one is for sure a socket vault
but good news is mastery gains a biiit of power
vivid cobalt
why does mastery gain value
alpine wraith
supercharger
young path
Has anyone done test with nimble flurry on PTR? Any chance they quietly fixed it to 50%? 🤣
vale pine
Has anyone done test with nimble flurry on PTR? Any chance they quietly fixed i...
same as before
young path
So damn tilted by this… HOW IS THIS HARD FOR THEM. Billion dollar company
You think they’re aware?
vale pine
no
they absolutely don't see statistics
like wcl or r.io
and see how subtlety is the least played dps in game
alpine wraith
or their own numbers in engine
maybe there are some QA people that have screamed about it but got ignored
as usual
low prio
young path
I did post about it using the report a bug forum… but it’s since been buried with other peoples bug reports
keen dome
Mages are the protagonists
wintry dove
the cycle of least played spec -> no fixes because no one plays -> more people swap off -> repeat
wind canopy
Yep
wintry dove
nothing indicates that blizzard is willing to spend the time to change that perception though
alpine wraith
thankfully arcane is still fine thx to totally balanced spymaster trink
wintry dove
so until then, it's kinda just in purgatory
unforch
is thistle tea completely losing its active component on tuesday or will it both be an active + activate below the energy threshold
wind canopy
is thistle tea completely losing its active component on tuesday or will it both...
Both active and trigger
keen dome
Unions are good and cool
wintry dove
gotcha
young path
My apologies, just frustrated with my perceived lack of care the devs have
But perhaps it’s genuinely issues not known
wintry dove
it's just frustrating because of lot of these issues seem like they could be resolved with pretty minimal effort from blizzard's side
jovial ingot
it's just frustrating because of lot of these issues seem like they could be res...
from a developer's perspective: it might not be minimal effort at all
wintry dove
yeah, I get that, we have no idea what their dev allocation and resources look like for rogue or classes/specs in general
jovial ingot
something that looks simple might take them ages to do because a change here could kill 12000 actions elsewhere
even within classes
if you change how poison works for rogue, it might change how poisons work in the entire game 
gilded ferry
once again i am here saying, rogue is not being overlooked
wintry dove
I'm also a software developer, I know just how spaghettified everything probably is in their engine
alpine wraith
i don't think even being a dev we can know how shit can get krangled
with talks we had with scarizard or realz we have seen how messed up things are
with NS and subter etc
pliant topaz
if you change how poison works for rogue, it might change how poisons work in th...
Okay buddy you overcooked with that one
alpine wraith
they have like 12 diff vers etc
yea i do know they do have modules per class
so unless they went into the nature toolbox
should be fine
jovial ingot
Okay buddy you overcooked with that one
probably yeah but shit happens irl
hopefully they have different poisons but idk how it works
pliant topaz
It’s true the small changes could have unforeseen outcomes
Like the extra sod charges
gilded ferry
like having an item that can pull bosses
pliant topaz
And how they tanked the spec in so many ways even though they seem
Simple
gilded ferry
and stun them
pliant topaz
The problem is if they consider any of our whining a real issue
keen dome
You joke but how many stealth spellID's are in the game
Who knows which the real one is these days!
keen dome
Can they get rid of Recuperator too
wintry dove
things can get krangled for sure, but I feel as though fixing the numbers on nimble flurry should be an easy fix to implement
pliant topaz
To them random dynamic sod timers with empty sods or 1 minute of no sod no dance isn’t an issue,
To me that’s psychotic
alpine wraith
like having an item that can pull bosses
you could play bouncy castle with bosses
with 2 diff items that knocked back
keen dome
things can get krangled for sure, but I feel as though fixing the numbers on nim...
I wouldn't be surprised if it's also a priority thing, and they have a massive list of stuff but
who knooooooows
It sucks. we vent. we sub.
alpine wraith
To them random dynamic sod timers with empty sods or 1 minute of no sod no dance...
I'm more of a conossieur of 40 secs of backstabbing
replanning my life
young path
once again i am here saying, rogue is not being overlooked
Or maybe just formal acknowledgment so the community gains confidence the dev team is even aware of the issue
wintry dove
pretty sure we've been asking for that since alpha feedback and even further back
alpine wraith
im surprised how they actually made things that worked not work anymore
hazy breach
To them random dynamic sod timers with empty sods or 1 minute of no sod no dance...
To me the core of the spec is using shadow dance with a big bonk from sectech, symbols is a button we need right now to do that. So effectively we want to have symbols+dance+sectech combined together for the fundamentals to make sense, but most changes they do are actively trying to pull these apart for some reason which just leads to frustrating and annoying gameplay. Deathstalker dust could do the holy trinity all the time it was up and it was neat, now were either missing sectechs (during burst), missing symbols (if no 2x) or missing dances (every talent setup) which just feels bad
wintry dove
people were rightfully upset when the deathstalker tree was released and we immediately entered the beta phase with it being unplayable for sub
hazy breach
Like how assa is designed around satsifying kingsbane+shiv windows
It would feel really bad if kingsbane was moved to 45s cd, because the core gameplay loop is no longer present unless you delay other things, which makes it feel worse for no reason
pliant topaz
I'm more of a conossieur of 40 secs of backstabbing
Sometimes it’s 40 sometimes it’s 1
Min. Depends how deep in the fight u are
wintry dove
shadowdust was just some duct tape holding together a completely dysfunctional spec
alpine wraith
Sometimes it’s 40 sometimes it’s 1
Min. Depends how deep in the fight u are
yea we have reverse spymasters
we stack annoying
keen dome
I'm going to play Sub in keys and let the world know about our power.
gilded ferry
i mean, it wont be much power but sure
alpine wraith
they will know
wintry dove
sub is fine until you get to 12+
vestal escarp
ok reverse spymaster is funny
keen dome
sub is fine until you get to 12+
Not in my hands.
wintry dove
the longer the fight goes, the more I want to disappear
keen dome
I just need to ask the group to kill the boss in the first 20 seconds.
pliant topaz
To me the core of the spec is using shadow dance with a big bonk from sectech, s...
I really dont think the thought process went further than -> we gotta remove dust -> removed -> put something there -> ah sure heres more symbols
becuse sod was unique
in that it was a fixed timer
served as an anchor
for dance, sectech, and cds
it was the core that we built around
keen dome
It's missing the other elements to make it make sense, whatever they might be, imo
alpine wraith
maybe we should get a total energy debuff
so we end the fight with 50 called being a boomer
pliant topaz
now if u want to send something you need to consider :
- can i get sectech in it ? can i get it earlly or late?
- do i have enough rupture covering it?
- do i have darest night up?
- do i have enough sod charges for next cds?
- can i farm enough cps for next dance
- can i farm enough cps to have sectech be up when cds happen
alpine wraith
so we can only strike once
pliant topaz
if the answer is yes, u send, but the problem is theyre all dyanmic now so if sectech is up first gcd u sennd if its up 3rd finisher u send. and this affects you next cd set so u gotta re-evaluate then again
its psychotic
and then in m+ build u gotta add PV to ALL OF THIS
alpine wraith
ehehe
pliant topaz
because strike hits hard and u gotta go through pv for pathing
keen dome
PV 😠
wintry dove
you don't like guesstimating your cd alignment mid key?
keen dome
I like Deeper Daggers. Just put Deeper Daggers where PV is. And also keep the original Deeper Daggers
Call one Deeper Stabbers
you can flip the icon and it'll look cool
feral tundra
my assa brain trying to learn sub = malfunction
merry agate
They gonna bring back stiletto staccatto just to further fuck up our alignments 
feral tundra
wonder how it is now with changes
alpine wraith
it will be painful
and now we have an irl mod
the longer the fight goes the worse we are
in several stages
keen dome
the longer the fight goes the worse we are
same, same.
keen dome
Should've deleted it for launch..
wintry dove
remember when we got the patch notes on alpha/beta that said dust is going from 15/30 to 10/20
keen dome
Eleem had a good point as to why that never happened, imo. It makes sense.
wintry dove
oh, it should have never even been drawn up
alpine wraith
if dust didnt exists we could have this whole thing earlier
no now it is even earlier
we break down at like 2 mins
tiny mauve
Sooo do we have any speculation on what rotation will be post anniv patch
With 0 slice management and additional sod charges Im thinking its gonna become one of the simpler specs
vale pine
my hot take
1 mintue flag was a lot better in effect
and its hard to understand why it was moved away from
it does feel like missing the goal of having a somewhat functional rotation
pastel rampart
and its hard to understand why it was moved away from
were u not saying that w a 1 min flag our profile becomes "just like assassination"
and that seeing blades moved down would fix that?
or
was that another person
vale pine
were u not saying that w a 1 min flag our profile becomes "just like assassinati...
which it was since 10.2
its not a new thing
people are just afraid that both specs compete on the same damage profile
the dev team even stated that assassiantions burst wasn't intended to be high in 10.2
vale pine
were u not saying that w a 1 min flag our profile becomes "just like assassinati...
i was saying having no choice is bad
it is the very old problem
rogue is a 3 dps class
so each of the specs compete for the same position, it is always a matter of
who does it better
keen dome
rogue is a 3 dps class
rogue tank rogue tank rogue tank rogue tank rogue healer?
vale pine
removing dust created the issue
because the initial idea was 1 min flag
which a lot of assassiantion players pointed out to be bad because thats assassiantions niche
you can even find me arguing subtlety did it first referencing to old iterations
solar charm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
i am not saying i like 1 min flag
but conceptually
its better than 1 min 30 shadowblades with lower duration
keen dome
Yeah, I agree. It's a more useful stepping stone change.
vale pine
so you are correct
i think 1 min flag creates a very focused gameplay
around just using everything every minute
and afking between
hazy breach
We dont have enough cdr for that either way
vale pine
yes
left ledge
I think that beats both ideas
keen dome
Bug fixin's the dream
left ledge
Because this spec is still a buggy mess
keen dome
I would like nimble flurry to hit properly
vale pine
oh absolutely
left ledge
If we weren’t plagued with bugs we would be doing fine damage
left ledge
I hate that we’re getting dust removed
And cds changed
And all this other bullshit
Before they even fix the bugs
vale pine
i mean its just weird
i am not even upset, or dooming
but we haven't had a patch since 10.2
that improved the experience for subtlety players
vale pine
Do we get aura buffs? Or do we get bug fixes?
the changes are a buff
young path
I would like nimble flurry to hit properly
💯
keen dome
the changes are a buff
True, true
vale pine
like
left ledge
I fear 50% flurry isn’t enough to save this spec anyways lmao
keen dome
Hell yeah
tepid trellis
o7
vale pine
ofc thats a bit too high
because
the DS bug
is not in sims
so like 3% less
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
left ledge
@tepid trellis how hyped are you for sub changes
young path
10% buff (if u can even call it a buff as it’s already promised) to main source of damage in M+ would be big
tepid trellis
<@83652604344664064> how hyped are you for sub changes
wispy bolt
Can we really call that a buff? Or are you trolling tongue in cheek
vale pine
its quite a bit of a buff
keen dome
I still think we'll see aura buffs before bug fixes, which in turn will create a weird situation down the road.
left ledge
I still think we'll see aura buffs *before* bug fixes, which in turn will create...
Yeah aura buffs to sin
left ledge
How do you even write apl for the spaghetti mess of a spec sub is becoming
keen dome
Alright it's all good we're beating outlaw again.
wind canopy
The damage buff is cool. The playstyle/gameplay... 
left ledge
I doubt it
vale pine
Alright it's all good we're beating outlaw again.
hard to say
because that is assuming only rogue gets better
keen dome
Dreams: dashed.
vale pine
and from what i remember
the changelog was not super short for 11.0.5
sooo
hard to say
keen dome
Yeah
alpine wraith
then you put the player makes mistakes -9% dps
vale pine
e.g. assassiantion might get more form the enw talents than sub
strange rover
wait is there any chance that sub gettin better than sin with changes?
vale pine
and subtlety migth be worse on very fast fights
while mythic gets killed quicked with the 8% buff
left ledge
Sub is going to become a headache to play
wispy bolt
I doubt we even see this buff. There will be some bug or smth💀
strange rover
i mean no dust gona feel really weird ngl
left ledge
It’s ok dust was too complicated
vale pine
I doubt we even see this buff. There will be some bug or smth💀
oh the number i showed
was with bugs
don't worry
left ledge
So now enjoy whatever the fuck sub is in .5
left ledge
Dance for DN poggers
vale pine
thats 0.5% dps or so
also it includes the bugs for supercharger
to not work with shadowed finisher
heady dragon
@vale pine random question out of nowhere
what would you do for sub, to give haste like ANY value at all (and not the outlaw way of "solving" that problem lol)
wispy bolt
Is the rotation easier or harder to mechanically execute than with dust. What I’m getting at is that APL plays perfect.
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> random question out of nowhere
what would you do for sub,...
cursed solutions only?
make shadow dance cooldown depend on haste
weary kite
Honestly if shadow techniques procced more frequently with haste, thatd be cool.
vale pine
they do
weary kite
outside of just autoing more lol
vale pine
haste increases auto attack speed
heady dragon
Honestly if shadow techniques procced more frequently with haste, thatd be cool.
more auto hits = more shadow tech "procs"
vale pine
so mroe haste = more autos
realistically
i don't think you can make haste good with how sub is designed atm
energy and combo points are solved by polarizing talents
shadowcraft is too good
it is a weird situation
because i think the dev team tried to do some good things in 10.2
it just is either undercooked
or backfired heavily
depending on what perspective you take
e.g. just to give you a perspective of what i mean
pliant topaz
Road to hell is paved in good intentions they say
vale pine
BP was buffed by 35%, whats a insane number you almost never see a spell getting buffed
and if you compare sub in aoe
to e.g. assasisantion
its still like 20% behind
pliant topaz
Now I need a spreadsheet to tell me how many times I’m supposed to sod in 0-1.5 min on. 5 min kill timer cuz it’ll be different than a 5:15
pliant topaz
its still like 20% behind
It’s more than 20% behind. It’ll be 20# behind when patch goes live and sub gets stronger I can’t
vale pine
i know this is a controversiol position to take
but mastery massively buffs finishers
rupture does not enough damage for how much benefits it gets on top of the baseline
and this while it already does A LOT
vale pine
thats fine
pliant topaz
If you’re creative
vale pine
like whispyr suggested to flip it
flip sub and sin rupture mechanics
and i think thats also not great for sub (and neither for sin)
pliant topaz
Not really it’s not fine imo. Having a spell with 0 interactions with the kit isn’t fun. It’s tolerable when it does a fuck load of damage like sectech
pliant topaz
But non of subs abilities really interact with their kit
pliant topaz
Flawless form coupe and nimble are the first set of cool interactions we got for strike and evis
onyx hare
flip sub and sin rupture mechanics
Do you mean Ic or some form of scent
vale pine
he did mean
bronze dragon
and sin get replicating?
vale pine
yes
essentially give sub ic and such
and give assasisantion rs
but i don't think that is well thought through
because of how many nodes are bleed related on sin
so i assuume it was more ment as a joke
onyx hare
Sub dosent need rupture at all tbh
No one plays sub to be applying and maintaining a bleed
bronze dragon
iirc a secondary idea realz had for sin carnage was basically RS
vale pine
the change to IC make it essentially RS
Just with 3 instead o 2 targets
also sin players asked for RS since seaosn 1 DF
vale pine
thats fair
pliant topaz
so its compensted by that
alpine wraith
feral rake is like 3rd row
vale pine
well flag is no capstone
pliant topaz
but my problem is how worthless all of my capstones are
vale pine
and does capstone level impact
vale pine
rotten is a capstone with noticable less
pliant topaz
DD is like 2.5%
pv is like 0.1% if not played around 1.5% if tlaented into 3 sods and rotten
lingering is like 1% but also needs gb
finality is like 1.5-2% per node
sods themselves are weak as shit without inev and rotten
db is weak as fuck
its like
everything sucks
which is why TFD is almost a viable option (withint 1%) on a pure single target 5 min sim
A 4 SECOND DANCE DURATION IS A VIABLE TALENT
holy fuck
A 1 TIME 4 SECOND DANCE
vale pine
sods themselves are weak as shit without inev and rotten
and supercharger
pliant topaz
yeah that too
also theres gotta be a tuning patch for ptr this week
patch cannot go live this
alpine wraith
pre pull and sec tech krangle
no surprises
sec tech krangle does not always work tho
will check more on friday
pliant topaz
yeah i havent been able to replicate that one
pastel rampart
!wax
wicked joltBOT
- Can be pickpocketed from kobolds in e.g. The Ringing Deeps. (needs The Final Candle questline completed.)
- Only use it on one weapon. (does not stack)
azure mauve
A 4 SECOND DANCE DURATION IS A VIABLE TALENT
i actually cant believe that, i read the talent on the notes and im just like this talent sucks lmao
you get 1 dance that has 4 more seconds woah thats crazy
alpine wraith
yes
pliant topaz
i actually cant believe that, i read the talent on the notes and im just like th...
turns out if the other alternatives are as awful as they are and the spec is as complex as it is its a big talent
because it helps u farm more dances
but also its optimizable
which means you can actually use other builders/finishers in that dance that you wouldnt previously
because the extra DM stack lasts longer
but also because you can prepull supercharger
there are so many factors going into why this is as good as it is
like, sonuds weird, but its better than WM on like a 3 min fight
for example
(actually need to doublle check that might be a different timer breaking point)
manic island
someone please tell me we are getting buffed soon
keen dome
We're gettign buffed soon