perhaps they will buff BP enough that we go back to bp spam again
#subtlety
alpine wraith
best i can do is some aura buffs when i remember
heady dragon
(this is a ST buff)
sweet summit
i hope they stop buffing BP cuz its on my shift 1 and annoying to press already
glacial crystal
Will sub play the new Reprimand?
hazy breach
yes
alpine wraith
supercharger yea
alpine wraith
only bright light left
alpine wraith
subterfuge is a meme
for sub
imagine if subterfuge extended dance
oh wait cant have that make it a point where you need to stay 6 whole ass secondos
out of combat
half galleon
surely usefull in keys
sweet summit
omgg then vanishing mid combo would still be good
half galleon
lilac stag
would .2 faster dance cdr even help at this point?
alpine wraith
a bit but it is whatever you run out of SoD
vestal escarp
remove it
alpine wraith
would also help if you get mechanics or shit
vestal escarp
out of combat
pvp spec
sweet summit
imagine if subterfuge extended dance
this is good idea since we cant have vanish reduceing all cds, if it just extended dance by a causal 6 seconds 
it would be fineeee
hazy breach
And ye it is a bit doomy, because for the most part none of the things we have been complaining about have been adressed, instead theyve been exacerbated to become worse as well as adding some additional things we dont like
As well as reducing our flexibility and defensives 
lilac stag
!dot5
wicked joltBOT
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:
- Talent diversity
- Defensives
- Gameplay
This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.
vestal escarp
just the coup bugfix
alpine wraith
yea that was pedro alejandro before leaving the company because his team sucked and he cba
cloud rover
Rogue? more like Bugue
alpine wraith
now he works at a bank and makes triple
west bluff
!trinkets
alpine wraith
transmitter and mandate
hazy breach
Transmitter + whatever
sinful sluice
damn i am so looking forward for 20th anniversary patch but dont want sub patch to be applied at the same time
hazy breach
As long as you have transmitter 
alpine wraith
nah just crit mandate every time
sweet summit
still dont have a transmitter : )
alpine wraith
same it just wont drop in hc
tepid trellis
ive lost two mythic ones
alpine wraith
but i lose it every week in lfr and normal
tepid trellis
we are nott he same
west bluff
nah just crit mandate every time
was gonna ask that, have to run sub on silken court but no transmitter yet, just mandate
alpine wraith
makes sense they are bullying you to play assa
hazy breach
ive lost two mythic ones
DKs?
tepid trellis
shaman and firemage
west bluff
spyglass and/or annubikaj?
hazy breach
was gonna ask that, have to run sub on silken court but no transmitter yet, just...
Fwiw you definitely dont have to run sub on court
vestal escarp
we are nott he same
hey at least they dropped
hazy breach
Assa is good too
tepid trellis
you just afk so much on silken anyway
sinful sluice
do you guys roll dices on raids in another servers?
sinful sluice
wow
sweet summit
im broke baby i need that gold
tepid trellis
loot council decides our fates
hazy breach
Idk not a fan of silken court
west bluff
Assa is good too
Just saw good logs from assa as well right now, hadnt seen yet
indeed it is far from mandatory
hazy breach
Any fight where you stop DPS just takes the soul out of me
regal stag
damn, the more i read about what everyone think about sub right now, the more worried i am.
tepid trellis
im just having a singing party with myself during the fight
hazy breach
And since im not in one of the ranged camps doing the web stuff
sweet summit
damn, the more i read about what everyone think about sub right now, the more wo...
overall every spec in the game is fine atleast and more changes are coming so
west bluff
silken court is a fight where i keep my vanish not to get cucked by the boss
hazy breach
It just feels like im watching other people learn stuff while i do nothing, which feels kinda bad
west bluff
I might be a bit dumb but lost my mark a few times
hazy breach
As i cant really help
regal stag
overall every spec in the game is *fine* atleast and more changes are coming so
that's good to hear ! now, let's hope trickster remains usable too.
alpine wraith
yea as assa you have to be careful
alpine wraith
does he know
sweet summit
that's good to hear ! now, let's hope trickster remains usable too.
hahah dont expect us to ever get talent diversity
west bluff
id rather lose that garrote than potentially losing my mark
hazy breach
I mean sub has good talent diversity now with dust VS no dust and both deathstalker/trickster being fine (esp before bp buffs)
sweet summit
there will be one way to play this spec and not have it be super aids
hazy breach
Thats one of the things were losing
sweet summit
and thats all we can hope for
regal stag
damn.
sweet summit
sin mad we stole this talent we dont use
true
guys they dont give reasons to why they remove some talents do they ?
where can i read that if they say it anywhere
cloud rover
sin mad we stole ths
Subs identification is to steal cool stuff from the Other sepcs !?
sweet summit
i dont rlly look patch notes i just get info from glancing this disc
alpine wraith
no they dont really write for rogue a lot
west bluff
rogues rarely get developers notes
half galleon
where can i read that if they say it anywhere
sometimes the write some random stuff in the blue post but most of the time its just nothing
vestal escarp
Subs identification is to steal cool stuff from the Other sepcs !?
yeah we stole kingsbane and dreadblades
cloud rover
Aces Resets ? Sub Yoinks
Dreadblades? Sub Yoinks
Dust? Sub Yoinks
void hound
subs identitiy is being extremely complicated only to get outdamaged by 3 buttons specs
cloud rover
Blade Flurry? Sub tries to yoink rn
pastel rampart
we can yoink the mechanics but we cant yoink the fun
west bluff
subs identitiy is being extremely complicated only to get outdamaged by 3 button...
Retribution has joined the chat
vestal escarp
you guys should see the levels of dooming in warr discord
sweet summit
you guys should see the levels of dooming in warr discord
ur joking
pls
be joking
vestal escarp
void hound
i mean warri got the assa treatment
being too good in HC week only to get gutted
so i can feel their pain
west bluff
so i can feel their pain
time to put their ignore pain to use
sweet summit
therye still over like half the specs in the game no ?
void hound
time to put their ignore pain to use
real
void hound
its okay
half galleon
therye still over like half the specs in the game no ?
i think furry single target is poop
void hound
but why take warrior when you could take frost dks
half galleon
maybe thats what they dooming about
vestal escarp
for example sub also got tuned according to raid performance in the late part of amirdrassil, only to be forgot in awakened season
it's a thing blizz tends to do
hazy breach
Bro was gonna flame warriors for doing no singletarget but accidently hit himself as collateral
Unlucky
sweet summit
GIVE SUB THE KILLING SPREE ANIMATION
half galleon
Bro was gonna flame warriors for doing no singletarget but accidently hit himsel...
i tried to see other precentiles
it does not change
sweet summit
BLIZZ why so many flavor fails
half galleon
tribal blade
remember when we were like "dw BP buffs incoming"
sweet summit
blizzs biggest flavor fail : outlaw
vestal escarp
what changed?
vestal escarp
nothing
tribal blade
that's the only way blizz will tune sub apparently
we have to be at the literal bottom
sweet summit
what if we just shift outlaw over to a hunter spec or delete it entirely and we get a real rogue-ish spec instead
half galleon
actaully true my adhd wont allow me to play anything but rogue
glacial crystal
Is this the Boomkin discord?
sweet summit
mental boom discord
tribal blade
are boomys not happy?
tribal blade
aren't they timing top keys atm
heady dragon
i guess we're fine as 2 spec class
1spec
tawdry kiln
Aces Resets ? Sub Yoinks
Dreadblades? Sub Yoinks
Dust? Sub Yoinks
we had old acrobatic strike too
half galleon
yea they are fine but boomkins cope always
vestal escarp
boomy is strong and getting strongr with anni
half galleon
even if they are the best
sweet summit
try hard on sub or chillplay deluxe on beast master for raid while watching netflix damn its rlly hard to decide i wonder why no one plays this spec
west bluff
did sub already yoink indiscriminate carnate?
vestal escarp
the tricks of the trade
vestal escarp
did sub already yoink indiscriminate carnate?
they yoinked from sub
west bluff
or do you manually rupture
glacial crystal
are boomys not happy?
They just complain and tank their logs so they get buffed and stay top 😉
vestal escarp
good dmg
heady dragon
how r ferals rn any1 know
okay
tribal blade
They just complain and tank their logs so they get buffed and stay top 😉
oh i see, i thought boomys just went into incarn, stopped seeing mechanics and then complained to the healer when they stand in stuff and die
vestal escarp
the ones i played with
half galleon
i have not seen a single feral they are rare i think
heady dragon
not very good, not very bad, feral is ok
sweet summit
dude theres some feral that plays with whyspyr and her dmg is crackedddd
glacial crystal
Did kush play assa in RWF?
vestal escarp
only at ovinax iirc
tribal blade
mix of sin and sub
west bluff
i have not seen a single feral they are rare i think
our feral did decent boss damage on ovinax
third after assa and FDK
heady dragon
did sub already yoink indiscriminate carnate?
sub has 2target rupture
sweet summit
yeah the feral im talkin about was doing hella good on ovinax
old socket
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
nimble burrow
Brothers i have a question, how do we use BP/Evis also SS/Storm in M1 P2 mobs?
lilac stag
In what now?
haughty mural
i think he means first boss mythic intermission
haughty mural
all g bac
near rivet
depends on hero spec you play
lilac stag
idk what M1 was hah
haughty mural
can't answer atm.. i jumped ship atm 
azure ember
Are the rogue changes still happening next week? Can’t see them all on the patch notes anymore
nimble burrow
Trickster
alpine wraith
yes they are happening
lilac stag
<:dead:932888396316155934>
https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/ulgrax-the-devourer this has the CD breaks
alpine wraith
to our great sadness
near rivet
go full ST and tell everyone you are only about boss dmg
nimble burrow
i just found myself good at that period
cloud rover
go full ST and tell everyone you are only about boss dmg
He would change to Sin, if that was the case
cloud rover
haughty mural
give up in that phase
alpine wraith
so use cds on pull then at 1 min you flag vanish blades
haughty mural
lilac stag
you could go dust ds
alpine wraith
then when intermission ends you can use cds again
you still want to be trickster because you skip the dance of the succ
as ds you lose dps there
because you dont skip
until next week tho kekw
man it will be so bad
haughty mural
go to the kitchen and get yourself a nice warm cup of coffee or tea and come back when intermission is over
lilac stag
just caustic and let the fury and havoc have fun
lilac stag
pray they just disable the spec so we know its done
haughty mural
so we can just go next
like in a toxic relationship
just break up so i can live my life
lilac stag
just abusing ourselves
haughty mural
again
near rivet
i wouldnt mind coup double dipping on supercharged CP bonus
alpine wraith
i actually havent tried if you can SoD mid coup and it works twice if you already have the charger buff from before
haughty mural
and give the carrot back while we're at it
alpine wraith
but would not save it
lilac stag
surely Skardyn's Grace in vault today
vestal escarp
do you have hc transmitter?
lilac stag
yes
near rivet
im still hoping for transmitter
alpine wraith
same any day now it drops
lilac stag
i just rather have SG for assa
near rivet
we are about to kill M kyveza and still it never dropped any on lower diffs
lilac stag
we had one drop, but I was vault getter
nimble burrow
like i could have the 2nd brust in the intermission
haughty mural
who got it ? 
nimble burrow
but idk how to deal with it
lilac stag
gave it to a ww, since havoc didnt want it
near rivet
so you'll get it on mythic
i permabooked myself on every rekill of her due to that
haughty mural
gave it to a ww, since havoc didnt want it
based celestial ww ?
near rivet
actually became temporary RL to ensure the spot 
nimble burrow
like i always confused or messed up BP/Evi or SS/Storm in this situation
lilac stag
idk i dont try to understand what some of our dps are thinking
nimble burrow
always press Storm in Dance
vale pine
!wa
haughty mural
idk i dont try to understand what some of our dps are thinking
ye else it wouldnt make that much sense - but yea
lilac stag
i can at least upgrade madqueen to 626 after vault
vale pine
perfect
haughty mural
lilac stag
we make more improvements in the discord than blizz does to the actual spec
lilac stag
RIP 
vale pine
and probably move vanish to the utility row
haughty mural
good riddance sepsis
vale pine
also add charges for symbols
lilac stag
i hate that, i like seeing the caster/frontals
but that's me
my brain goes loopy when the mob colors start to change lol
lilac stag
it's tuned properly and well designed
near rivet
i had default aggro color coding entire life, so its w/e for me
lilac stag
opposed to sub which is tuned awfully and had shit design
most dps specs dont have you jumping through hoops like sub
sinful sluice
i mean i kinda like how sub is designed rn where you can adjust your cd timings by every boss
its fun
lilac stag
enjoy it for a week
lilac stag
too many people that dont actually play the spec bending the ear of bliz in 10.2
becuase of 1 boss
haughty mural
thx smoldi
haughty mural
my raid disbanded - so cant get benched 
lilac stag
big brain
haughty mural
pug life for me now
vale pine
i got benched kekw sub sucks
i am happy for you or sorry that happened
short radish
This is actually part of subs design. They add a talent that makes it really broken for one single fight in the current raid, which then bricks it for the next 2 expansions.
short radish
Happened for zul, now it's smolderon
haughty mural
yes it is
vale pine
this is prolly the worst season to pug
think it is the best season to pug
vale pine
mythic+
haughty mural
mythic+ is a nightmare
lilac stag
i am happy for you or sorry that happened
hahah not me, but someone in this discord with a certain color name
lilac stag
i'm surprised you can't find a guild as a rogue.
haughty mural
i'm pretty sure i'll find one fast
void hound
shouldnt be too hard if you have somewhat decent logs
void hound
few people can play rogue close to its potential so there is a lot of room to set yourself apart from the competition
vale pine
but he still here
rip
nimble burrow
i am trying to play Sub in M1
much comfortable compare to outlaw, but i have some timeline messed
should i play DeathStalker?
clever delta
!up
wicked joltBOT
half galleon
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
should i play DeathStalker?
both is fine atm, i would stay trickster
11.0.5
deathstalker
nimble burrow
like my overall in dmg rn is pretty weird
gilded ferry
and dont want another
if you are not aiming for HOF, you can make it with more
vale pine
if it works better
gilded ferry
comps are not that set in stone for CE guilds in general
gilded ferry
we have 3 in mine haha
vale pine
we had rarely more than one (me)
not because we didn't like to
but rogues are not that much played
hunters on the other hand
gilded ferry
if you are doing well with the class, it will be way more valuable then someone else for a spot
spare oar
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
nimble burrow
we pass
vale lagoon
we pass
...must be nice
playing just in keys, I dont think i've ever topped dps the moment i went past 10s lol
big sad
sacred yarrow
nimble burrow
gilded ferry
nice
crimson wind
Praying for myth transmitter vault
vale pine
uneven scarab
Praying for big vers mast ring in vault 
keen dome
Praying for anything but bracers on my Myth slot..
elfin hound
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
plain zephyr
I got Mad Queens in my vault. I now have Mad Queens and Transmitter. When do I sent Mad queens?
Transmitter with shadowblades/Flag still, right?
hazy breach
When lingering darkness is up generally
haughty mural
after cds for lingering buff
vale pine
I got Mad Queens in my vault. I now have Mad Queens and Transmitter. When do I...
transmitter for big cooldowns, mad queens during symbols or if you play deathstalker during lingering darkness
plain zephyr
Thank you
uneven scarab
Does symbols also buff mad queens?
vale pine
crit buff
uneven scarab
Oh yeah
vale pine
PE
gilded ferry
curious to see how sub stands in raid next week
lilac stag
Like a person without legs
fallow nimbus
Sitting on the sideline
vale pine
curious to see how sub stands in raid next week
similar to now
damage output does not change much
!dot5
wicked joltBOT
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:
- Talent diversity
- Defensives
- Gameplay
This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.
gilded ferry
im sure we will discover something that will make the gameplay better
sub always finds a way
fallow nimbus
Not this time
vale pine
oh yes
fallow nimbus
A nice thing would be cb on 30sec
vale pine
maybe
jaunty umbra
goated TCs I believe
vale pine
give us some days to cook
fallow nimbus
Something like 2 dances 2 sods with cds then 1 dance 1 sod between cd sets
fallow nimbus
I have a feeling that 1.5min cds is a test
young path
I am really hoping the suggested dances during the first 1:30 is being under assessed / low balled
young path
But then again, nothing surprises me at this point when it comes to sub
alpine wraith
you get 1 dog ass dance
haughty mural
imagine you can choose your cds like survival can
young path
and suffer with us
Dang 😦
vale pine
imagine you can choose your cds like survival can
or like subtlety?
young path
This hurts my soul… I really don’t want to play sin or outlaw
haughty mural
as you mentioned as only option it has its problems
vale pine
for the majority, one good build is what is enough
hazy breach
Assa has talent diversity and lots of people dont like it
haughty mural
true
hazy breach
Because people arent sure what the "best" talents are
haughty mural
i was just reffering to fuu's point there tbf
vale pine
e.g. i joined a german podcast in SL
and they asked me
"what is the best to pick"
and my answer was, "what you like, they are so close all of them are good choices"
this was before we found a bug, that made one slightly better
but point is, people want one option that is the default
but other options typically to be close but just not enough to give free choice
gilded ferry
and suffer with us
i might just do that
vale pine
assassiantions diversity would be what subtleties design typically was
gilded ferry
at least to get a feeling of the rotation
vale pine
we always had multiple talents you could pick from
with altered gameplay
e.g. in legion
you had mfd vs dfa in tos
gilded ferry
they could just make sub a 30s spec again, it would be ok to be like a pally
vale pine
in bfa dark shadows (low dance cdr, 2 charges, damage amp during dance) vs enveloping shadows (high dance cdr, 3 charges)
fallow nimbus
The voices from the void tell me that 90sec will fail and we go back to flag 60 and blade 2min
uneven scarab
vale pine
in aoe we had bp vs. evi
etc.
2 legendary builds for single target in legion
with diffrent strenghs
also in DF
we had 3 talent options competing pre 10.2
10.2 two
(even tho many talents are not played)
it is just that this diversity gets lower every patch
one example to make it clear
sly shore
@vale pine did you test the bug
vale pine
the general rogue tree
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> did you test the bug
oh good that you remind me
still trellis
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a...
"this does not mean the patch is bad" instead of "meant he patch is bad"(small typing mistake, i just had to say it im sorry didnt wanna annoy 
)
vale pine
i logged in because my gf needed help in a delve for a alt
was like
"i think i wanted to test sth"
vale pine
the general rogue tree
^ ER was competitive, shadow dance a option and tea too
so just some patches ago
we could effectively play the entire talent tree
11.0.5
we will most likely only play
cold blood, supercharger, deeper
pastel rampart
ok google, when sub rogue fixed
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> did you test the bug
logging in again, moment
sly shore
gilded ferry
@alpine wraith do you have the import for the build in ptr?
alpine wraith
nope cant log in but here have a ss
for full st you take out imp storm and get shadow focus
class tree is just cb supercharger and deeper
sly shore
based
sly shore
I knew I wasn't crazy though
vale pine
but on 1
you essentially get no cdr
whats overall fairly irrelevant
unless you have shadowcraft
and want to finish-secret
it was what i tried
sly shore
that's the tilter moment
I bet it's cos the game thinks
a gcd is one second
so no point giving cdr below 1s
100%
vale pine
possible
uneven scarab
uneven scarab
vale pine
now test every millisecond above 1s
not on my frame rate
would need to ask my gf if i can borrow her pc
with 24/30 fps
not good to test frame specific timings
gilded ferry
!wa
sly shore
not on my frame rate
Just test 1.1, 1.2 etc
vale pine
Just test 1.1, 1.2 etc
i only track the cooldown in real numbers
so would need another weakaura XD
not that its hard to do
i assume latency and server ticks play a role
sly shore
Possibly and spell queue
barren plume
Outside of removing models from WAs how else can I increase my frames?
empty plume
Was today the balance change for dust
gilded ferry
next week
barren plume
Do I start practicing DB build rotation for raid
Someone in my guild was saying we are getting a dmg buff. I called them a fool and told them they were dumb
vale pine
Possibly and spell queue
i tried, its hard to get exact spell timer
kindred thunder
!transmitter
wicked joltBOT
The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png
hazy breach
Someone in my guild was saying we are getting a dmg buff. I called them a fool a...
It is a slight damage buff in a dummy situation
But without dust non-dummy type bosses are gonna be worse since we cant tailor our cds
sick jackal
class tree is just cb supercharger and deeper
Dont we wanna go tea without dust?
barren plume
Nah they said it was an actual like aura buff/ability buff
hazy breach
Dont we wanna go tea without dust?
Nop, supercharger too good
barren plume
And I was like nahhhhh you dumb
vale pine
i tried, its hard to get exact spell timer
it seems consistent around 1-1.3 or so
vale pine
but .1 sec is just extremely hard to time
vale pine
ask them if they know about any dev
wdym
fallow nimbus
If blizz does some balance after the patch maybe
vale pine
you can find my calcualtions about it in #tc-research if you rly want to dig about that
but the zul storm compensation
was at best a joke
to add to what eleem mentioned
downtime will also be more punishing
fallow nimbus
It's the same situation kind of
vale pine
so sims are very idealized
mental comet
is this trinket shit ?
mental comet
shoulders it is
fallow nimbus
We won't get anything because numbers too low
vale pine
there are just nicer trinket options
barren plume
Servers back up
vale pine
We won't get anything because numbers too low
hard to say
i actually think we migth get a number buff
but it should be a rework
fallow nimbus
People are not used to the new sub, no buff needed
vale pine
i actually think they designed themselves in a corner
where the entire team should sit down
uneven scarab
i actually think they designed themselves in a corner
Thats why just purge it all
vale pine
and think how they can re-work subtlety
uneven scarab
Do our talents from the bottom up
vale pine
this does not mean everything needs to be new
barren plume
We won’t be good til S4 and then next xpac we will be reworked and suck again til S4
vale pine
but we have soo many talents from SL or older
barren plume
This is the cycle… this is the way
vale pine
that just don't work well anymore
fallow nimbus
Yeah, dust removal should have been for 11.1 with a real finished rework
vale pine
and the gameplay loop gets worse every patch
keen dome
Yeah, dust removal should have been for 11.1 with a real finished rework
Launch or .1, yeah.
Having it be in 0.5 is just awkward.
vale pine
Yeah, dust removal should have been for 11.1 with a real finished rework
it rly feels like
the dev team did hear "dust bad" at the start of 10.2
empty plume
Nimble flurry is a bit weird, how do you balance free perma-cleave with no rotational requirements (we just continue single targeting and cleave for free, so the single target has to be made weak inherently)
(And then we kinda also suck on big aoe)
keen dome
I still feel like some of these changes are things slated for launch but never got in, in time.
vale pine
so they can now blame players for wanting dust removed and not being happy
fallow nimbus
0.5 is the real launch patch, just saying
vale pine
e.g. whispyr followed the same logic in a recent discussion in this channel stating that people wanted it removed and now complain that its removed
keen dome
I think the crux of it is always gonna be the lack of a meaningful addition in it's place while also the entire spec is bugged out of every shadow dance.
vale pine
exactly
dust removal is not nessecery a bad thing
if there is effort put in to make the spec play well
ember hound
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
shut ridge
vale pine
and add new things to excite players
barren plume
The bugs in a game that’s been out for 2 months is the problem
fallow nimbus
Everyone who understand dust knew it wasn't dust fault but the misaligned cooldowns
vale pine
Everyone who understand dust knew it wasn't dust fault but the misaligned cooldo...
well people in here knew
or who read sub articles on wowhead
but the majority of players outside of this small bubble
had no idea
its basiclly a information problem
empty plume
I don’t know anybody who likes it when their defensives become offensive CDs via talents or otherwise - it removes all freedom of use
vale pine
the problem is detailed enough that a generalist view on it misses important facts
hazy breach
I don’t know anybody who likes it when their defensives *become* offensive CDs v...
Vanish has traditionally been a dps cd
Very very rarely has it not been
vale pine
and its rly not a big defensive one
you need talents to even make that happen
it is a very niche utility spell
keen dome
I feel like Blizz is trying to do both with the changes. Adjusting our cooldown situation and removing Dust. Which isn't a terrible idea, it's just lacking the final thing to tie it all together (and also bug fixes)
fallow nimbus
Can't even reset bosses if you the last alive
vale pine
I feel like Blizz is trying to do both with the changes. Adjusting our cooldown ...
thats my question tbh
alpine wraith
vanish has always been a dps cd kinda
pliant topaz
They wanted to remove dust because it was seen as too complex and hard to balance
alpine wraith
just stronger or weaker
vale pine
the 1 min flag made a lot of sense compared to whatever they did after
pliant topaz
But they’re not very good at their job so they made the spec even harder
vale pine
why did they change their opinion on it
alpine wraith
i want to remove shadowed finishers and sec tech shadow hits
fallow nimbus
The game mostly revolves around 2min cds
alpine wraith
because they are buggy messes that will never work
keen dome
Yeah. I'm sad they went back on 1 minute flag but I get how it homogonizes the specs in a way that isn't too good.
vale pine
the only real concern was sub and sin having the same cooldown duration
which was also told to be irrleevant in 10.2
when sub and sin got the same thing
keen dome
But as a stepping stone change - I think it would've felt better than the change we're getting.
fallow nimbus
I say it's sin bias, change my mind
keen dome
Some information about long-term design goals would be really nice.
vale pine
it made more sense
hazy breach
Dance & symbols alignment is more important the flag+blades alignment imo
And thats what dust fixed
vale pine
^
hazy breach
Now its whacky and complicated
keen dome
Yeah, I agree with that. But with the changes we've got I can see their logic.
hazy breach
or feels bad because you skip a symbols
fallow nimbus
It's dustier without dust
keen dome
It's just lacking the glue to tie it all together.. Which, ironically, would've been dust I guess.
hazy breach
You see extremly few people playing DB right now
alpine wraith
no more 1 sec tech per dance on opener unless you have a shaman
vale pine
Yeah, I agree with that. But with the changes we've got I can see their logic.
for me the only logical explenation would be the idea to force 90 sec onto the player
hazy breach
Despite it being better than dust in a lot of cases (namely aoe related)
vale pine
whether thats because:
of assassiantion
or how dust cd's played on 80% of fights
is discussable
could be both
60 sec flag would change gameplay a bit more drastic
you could actively hold cooldowns
fallow nimbus
I am a hardcore sub player and for the first time after zul i will probably switch to assa
keen dome
for me the only logical explenation would be the idea to force 90 sec onto the p...
I can see that, yeah. The way I was looking at it is: People dislike the 1:30 cooldown and 2:00 cooldown on their BIG BUTTONS. First adjustment is to make it so that you've got a 1:00 and a 2:00 button. Aligned. People don't like this because it's too close to the other spec. What if we align it the other way? Response is more positive.
Dust being removed feels disconnected to this other change, honestly. But it also feels disconnected to the node we got in exchange. Shoving more Symbols in as a stop-gap or something weird.
vale pine
i don't know
people did not mind
1 min 2 min
at least i didn't get the feel
e.g. in sub chat
uneven scarab
To the people who play the spec it is just quite clear blizzard isnt sure what to do
vale pine
most ppl ended up afraid
that sub is getting assassiantions niche
whats already a big statement
keen dome
To the people who play the spec it is just quite clear blizzard isnt sure what t...
That's what I mean by it feeling disconnected. The change to cooldown alignment not being made in reference to Dust being removed but independently of.
vale pine
because it feels more like a request
fallow nimbus
1 and 2 min also fits with tornado and could have been real good for m+
vale pine
to change the cooldowns
to keep me as a palyer playing assassiantion
rather than "omg sub is now worse on 90 sec figths"
vale pine
1 min flag would be a buff to m+
hazy breach
45+90 is fine too
vale pine
^
hazy breach
Or 30+90
keen dome
Yeah
keen dome
Hah
keen dome
I like being able to push Kingsbane on big packs, and have even mroe burst for more packs. it feels good having a big button to use every minute.
fallow nimbus
Got some crit/mast pieces ready + recrafts easy doable
vale pine
there was no kingsbane
fallow nimbus
Wasn't it later added + we got goremaw?
vale pine
you can make statistics about that
and also look how many new talents each spec got
for example
i won't because i think some people migth get angry about that
keen dome
I'm surprised they didn't roll Flag into Goremaws.
fallow nimbus
Buff dmg, not energy
vale pine
a few chatters ended up extremely hyped around it
uneven scarab
Besides hacha
vale pine
but i found it to be not interestsing
keen dome
Has goremaw been actually played at all
I think it was used in S3 in some M+ builds
alpine wraith
yea it was fine
vale pine
the problem is
alpine wraith
we kinda wanted more meat onto it tho
keen dome
It just felt like a bad button bloat issue to me but yeah, it's no sepsis.
vale pine
but every time somone tells me
alpine wraith
we would be talking
vale pine
they love goremaws
alpine wraith
that is demolish lvls of AYAYA
vale pine
they also state how they would completely change the spell
to make it great
what for me means... its a diffrent spell
keen dome
Haha yeah, that's no longer goremaws
that's an active ability someone is designing in their head
keen dome
maybe they love the icon
keen dome
I don't recall it ever being as impactful as the other two Legion abilities.
vale pine
it was shit
keen dome
I remember what they do extremely well. Goremaw? I guess I pushed it on cooldown??
keen dome
the real Sub legion artifact ability was no fall damage
should've just slapped that on it as the ability
vale pine
yes but that was also removed
vale pine
its not too bad
its like ...
very niche things
neither of it impacted the game or balance
keen dome
No fall damage + dynamic flight though
uneven scarab
I just think its weird as THE finisher spec the only finisher talent we really have is finality
keen dome
I could yeet myself so far
vale pine
I just think its weird as THE finisher spec the only finisher talent we really h...
secret tech
vale pine
No fall damage + dynamic flight though
yes, i would love to get both back
it gave the spec charm
keen dome
Whenever the Contract proc's I get sad it isn't the SecTec animation...
Blizz you've got the animation. Just put it on the ability. Pretty please. Everyone would love it.
vale pine
princess has rly nice animations
vale pine
the boss animations would fit sub
keen dome
Yeah, absolutely.
Playable etherals, posion toggle, retool Sub as the Etherals Shadowguard spec, good buttons. let's go.
upper cosmos
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
edgy zenith
make dust only work on CDs less than 1min except Shadow Dance
Sub fixed
and keep the 1.5m flag and SB like they have
or just make Shadow Dance 45s and nerf the CDR gain from Deepening Shadows to compensate and keep the dust only working on CDs less than 1min (no exception rule here)
hazy breach
Did blizzard fix the bugs in shadowstalker now?
Nop
placid jacinth
Okay last question. Who here is actually running sub and not sin?
near rivet
whenever i can is a keyword
vale pine
is it a good time to start playing it
pastel rampart
Okay last question. Who here is actually running sub and not sin?
i play sub only until 4 hours ago i swap sin to practice for the next patch
vale pine
probably not
i am happy for everyone who tries sub and likes it
but in the current state of balance and with a big change comming within a week
empty plume
My desperation for groups makes me queue as assa sometimes
vale pine
might be better to play the simpler and stronger assassiantion
empty plume
It does more damage to be fair
vale pine
its more
there are some problems that came from the rework in 10.2
dust solved them, but not in a way blizz wanted to
so they just remove it
and let the communtiy figure out a way to best work around with a reduced toolkit
placid jacinth
What’s the talent that’s getting added?
tender grotto
Cockroaches of wow 
vale pine
so you can have 2 additional symbol casts a fight
nimble burrow
Masters i have a question, though it won't be longer after 11.05, i just found the timeline in the first little pull of M1 we will have another flag+blade burst, do we use in that pull or just hold it for ST?
placid jacinth
One last question from me too. What’s your take on outlaw spec?
vale pine
Outlaw is in a interesting spot
It has some fundermental design problems
basically their playstile is high uptime cdr high apm
so cooldowns can be spammed
this is rly good in mythic+
but isn't in raid
empty plume
Masters i have a question, though it won't be longer after 11.05, i just found t...
Pump overall dps
Gonna vary heavily by group
vale pine
especially with how most recent raids
end up with specific damage amps, shields or other important moments you would want high damage cooldowns for
outlaw in a sense is undertuned
assassiantion eats good this patch
its basically dominating all 3 specs in all content types currently
but this means outlaw hasn't rly a area to fit in
its also diffrent to subtlety, subtlety has gameplay problems as a consequence of design decisions
of the dev team
there is no fundermental reason it couldn't be as good or better than e.g. assassiantion right now
in gameplay, dynamic or output
nimble burrow
Fuu i heard that we need to cast SnD even after 11.05, may i ask which talent cause this and what it give us?
vale pine
Fuu i heard that we need to cast SnD even after 11.05, may i ask which talent ca...
its like this
we don't need to cast snd
because the new changes to cttc also apply snd now
so if you don't have snd up
you evi/env/dispatch
to apply it
depending on spec
BUT
what you migth read was a discussion we had with eleem earlier
there is a new talent
honest saddle
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
supercharger
it replaces echoing
this talent adds 2 charges of combo points when used
your next finisher will consume one
and will get +2(or +3) combo points added to the cast strength
placid jacinth
I just done like the fact that the dev teams always makes sin the best spec for pve through out the years
placid jacinth
It was fun once but I want to try something different
mystic bough
Hi, question, with the BP buff; do we solely rely on deathstalker hero talents and use BP for our main aoe damage in M+? Or doe we still go for trickster and only use BP by 7 or more targets?
vale pine
so you can in theory have 7 charges
BUT
if you start a fight
they reset
outside of the first 2 charges
so what we discussed was
to use symbols of death when you get a ress
to then have 2 charges at the start of the fight
and then
use slice and dice
instead of a other finisher
because slice and dice does no damage
so it does not consume a charge
to delay the charge use
within your shadow dance
does that make sense, i hope i didn't explain it too difficult
twilit phoenix
void hound
sounds cursed
empty plume
Net dps for the effort: +0.1%
nimble burrow
very clear, ty fuu, i havent got so familiar with sub, and last time i saw zac talk about it so i have a little bit curious
vale pine
so we probably won't cast snd
its more about us bouncing ideas
of how to exploit the fact that it gives you these 2 more charges at the start of the fight
and how to optimally utialize them
nimble burrow
I see, looks like a cool minmax skill?
left ledge
HOW POGGERS IS THIS SPEC
left ledge
Hi, question, with the BP buff; do we solely rely on deathstalker hero talents a...
You will be death stalking in .5
And bp on 2+
Gameplay will remain very similar yet crappier somehow
pliant topaz
Hi, question, with the BP buff; do we solely rely on deathstalker hero talents a...
trickster full dead as of next week. probably deathstalker on ALL content/bosses
left ledge
Dance for deez nuts
surreal knoll
I weep that we are going back to BP spam
left ledge
And backstab
keen dome
Times change. Black Powder remains.
left ledge
Except no damage this time
keen dome
Backstab had damage?
pliant topaz
Gameplay will remain very similar yet crappier somehow
idk about this one chief
left ledge
In df yes
pliant topaz
gameplay is uh very weird
empty plume
1 hour tricks in dungeons is so goated tho :/
left ledge
idk about this one chief
Ok maybe not very similar
empty plume
Rip trickster
left ledge
It’s just fucking broken
It’s like they took dust
And slammed it into the ground until it shattered
pliant topaz
Ok maybe not very similar
its like what if I told u it was better to send only 1 dance per flag/blades than 2?
twilit phoenix
are we gonna be giga chad DS enjoyers next week?
left ledge
There it is
left ledge
its like what if I told u it was better to send only 1 dance per flag/blades tha...
I would be unaffected as I won’t be playing this dogshit spec
pliant topaz
kekw
left ledge
As it seems my name is no longer relevant
pliant topaz
sinti when?
surreal knoll
we'll soon achieve bfa sub player counts
Finally I can parse again with no one else playing 🤣🤣
left ledge
Sinti might be coming real soon
pliant topaz
Finally I can parse again with no one else playing 🤣🤣
gl parsing when heres 5 people playing the spec, and its legit 4 one tricks and u
twilit phoenix
haven't played sub since W
D
keen dome
We can each have a nice parse
left ledge
gl parsing when heres 5 people playing the spec, and its legit 4 one tricks and ...
Think you included me in that count
5 is a bit much
Gl parsing when rank 2 is a 50
pliant topaz
true. pretty sure nto even stealthis gonna play it
vale lagoon
we'll soon achieve bfa sub player counts
are we not already there???
left ledge
Remember fated SL
If Stealthi and push weren’t playing sub
I might’ve quit the spec back then lmao
strange chasm
Sin is just so much better in all scenarios lol
vale lagoon
bfa is when 3 sub rogues evevr killed azshara
i feel like we literally are there in m+ tho lol
like
pliant topaz
M+ yeah
left ledge
Nah bro sub sims higher ST after .5
pliant topaz
now soon raid too
left ledge
Top sub is 2800
pliant topaz
Top sub is 2800
no shot really? LMFAO
left ledge
He only went sub for the burst
left ledge
no shot really? LMFAO
Yeah unless he got score since yday
It’s sad as fuck
We are the lowest score
formal helm
Dw they'll buff black powder again
left ledge
Yay…
latent wren
sub got its disgusting funnel! it will never get it again! thanks zul!
formal helm
Think I'm like top 200 with 2.4k
keen dome
I looked at some point and I was top 2k with like.. 1000 rating. Which was very funny.
latent wren
nice...
surreal knoll
Wild
