subtlety

[lilac stag]

Literally the 10.2 feed back changes are talking place just now (BP dmg, Dust is a problem)

Which is hilarious in how late they are

[left ledge]

i dont think its that they're late

i dont think they really have much interest in this spec

[lilac stag]

You realize we’re in a new expansion ye?

[left ledge]

yes but they're not "late"

they just dont care

[lilac stag]

and they’re pushing last xpac changes

[left ledge]

i promise you that without seeing how weak sub is right now

they would have never buffed BP

and wouldnt have even thought of touching our talents

[lilac stag]

wdym weak. Top 4 heroic raid standing

[left ledge]

yeah...

i wonder why

[lilac stag]

sub op in pvp

*allegedly

[left ledge]

heroic is terrible to look at for tuning when we're in multiple weeks of mythic

[left ledge]

feral is op

sub is good in pvp, wouldnt call it op

but also pvp is whatever that shit is completely separate

[wanton portal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger

[left ledge]

m+ is the most popular content this game has to offer

[lilac stag]

Only terrible if you focus on mythic players.

majority of raiders are heroic no?

sub clearing 10s

They legit don’t see a problem

Outside of not pressing an aoe ability.

[left ledge]

yes

its not like they even acknolwedged feedback from dragonflight

this spec is just turbo cooked

[pliant topaz]

u mean u dont like playing this?

[vale pine]

swift

huh, what did i miss

[pliant topaz]

thats the highest simming build now

[vale pine]

[left ledge]

i said this before when they first announced it

its just budget shadowdust

my gameplay is literally just becoming worse

[pliant topaz]

yeah

[vale pine]

that was the idea

[pliant topaz]

its identical with the same flaws except somehow worse

[hazy breach]

Well we were hopeful that these were just the first set of changes

[vale pine]

i am fairly certain

[hazy breach]

But turns out they were all the changes

[left ledge]

i was not hopeful

[vale pine]

because else we would have kept 1 min flag

[left ledge]

i was hopeful like

[vale pine]

the 1 min flag

[left ledge]

in s1 of df

then we got delayed

like 6 times

[vale pine]

would have made sure to have diffrent gameplay

[left ledge]

then the rework wasnt even complete

TWW comes, no bug fixes

"we'll get it in this month before heroic"

no fixes

"in heroic week"

no fixes

[pliant topaz]

thats the part that just makes me not wanna play the game

the bugfixes lmfao

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/dr-evil-pour-one-out-homies-beer-gif-14693934457104599755

[vale pine]

wdym

[pliant topaz]

i meant lack of bugfixes

[left ledge]

bugfixen'ts

[latent wren]

the bugs...

[vale pine]

to be fair

[latent wren]

theyre invading my home...

[vale pine]

they fixed some coup bugs

its just

we paly deathstalker now it seems

[left ledge]

there's no way you said to be fair with that

"to be fair"

"i pay 15/month to get one of 500 bugs fixed"

[pliant topaz]

okay but tricksters legit unplayable

[left ledge]

"and the expac"

[latent wren]

my sub doesnt charge again until march next year 🤣

or maybe its april i cant remember

[left ledge]

you're locked in for the shittiest ride of your life

[latent wren]

i won one of the break the metas and got some time

[left ledge]

ooh

lucky you man

idk if i can go any more tiers after this one

reroll or quit angle i fear

[latent wren]

according to the guy who went into my twitch chat while i was streaming i wasnt lucky to win i was just lucky i had friends to play with

[vale pine]

in gameplay or damage?

[latent wren]

lol i havent minded sub so far but ive yet to try deathstalker again so maybe that will make me reroll

i tried sin rogue on some target dummies and realized it was extremely fucking boring

[left ledge]

just go into a m+ as rogue

sub rogue*

[latent wren]

idm pooling that isnt what made it boring

[left ledge]

i havent even ran replicating shadows when i did keys as sub

i just gave up on that talent

[formal helm]

okay but the issue is if you even drop that and tornado, what do you even go?

veiltouched finality?

[vale pine]

it isn't bad tm

atm

[left ledge]

i just run ST talents

[vale pine]

deathstalker st plays nicely

11.0.5

[latent wren]

i really like ds st

[vale pine]

i can't say atm

[latent wren]

oh

i mean rn

LOL

[formal helm]

I mean fair

it's basically the same

and you don't really use shuriken tornado anyway 🤷

[formal helm]

st yeah, but m+?

[vale pine]

i can only say from my personal experience

i find trickster nicher to play in m+

but its a lot worse

due to bugs

[formal helm]

ofc

idk

we still have a week

[merry agate]

To reforge and farm assa gear

[formal helm]

[keen dome]

I believe. I believeeeee.

[vale pine]

we will

[merry agate]

You guys always do

[vale pine]

yes

lets re-introduce backstab in dance

[latent wren]

huh...

[formal helm]

backstab

[merry agate]

When we delayed Cold blood for sectec

[gleaming plank]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

Let’s get combo back this week

[merry agate]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-snake-punished-snake-mgsv-fallen-legend-mgs5-gif-27690731

Never

The sins of the father remain

[keen dome]

Poison toggle. It's gonna be poison toggle.

That's how they save Sub.

[ebon tiger]

well get in your spec saving feedback now. based on the "shadowdust bad" turnaround it'll be about mid midnight and we'll be saved

and just when shadowdust and I had come to an understanding

[vestal escarp]

i guess combo cant come back anymore with trickster

[vale pine]

was just a joke

[loud crater]

good morning

yesterday in Normal raid, i saw a sub rogue popping of huge burst dmg, is this normal ?

[tulip trail]

That's basically all sub is

[loud crater]

oh

[tulip trail]

Burst, sleep, burst.

[loud crater]

i have 0 knowledge about sub. i thought its an even spec , like good sustaineable dmg

i see

[keen dome]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[loud crater]

i only know assa as a burst sleep burst thingi. is sub hard to play ?

[keen dome]

Very good write-up of how it flows.

[tulip trail]

Forgot about that command.

[latent wren]

i wouldnt say sub is hard to play but there are a few oddities about it

[loud crater]

mhm

oke

[keen dome]

It has a learning curve, and yeah. A few oddities or weird quirks.

[loud crater]

i played arcane a lot last season, cant be that difficult

ill give it a read through, thanks

[vale pine]

yes

[topaz raptor]

sub is literally healer levels of dps between dances

[left ledge]

its going to be a lot harder than any ranged spec if you're trying to play trickster

but you're also going to be massively disappointed in how fast your damage falls off

you burst then actually do zdps

[formal helm]

ye, legit might as well be afk

[jagged hamlet]

how are you all feelinga bout the 11.0.5 changes?

[hazy breach]

📉

[pliant topaz]

A lot worse than I initially thought now that we have sims

[jagged hamlet]

i guess im ok with the direction but yeah it feels like some tuning towards everythign else is gonna need to happen

[uneven scarab]

Do we have before and after sims

[jagged hamlet]

and even by direction i just mean, id rather not have sub be another 1min/2min spec

[trim ridge]

We have sims now? Lemme see so i can doom!

[jagged hamlet]

guessing would prob be in tc somewhere

[topaz raptor]

how was dustless simming on live

sounds like trash

[pliant topaz]

It’s actually stronger than it is on live

Dooming isn’t tuning related

Although tricksters gone. Like not even close to being playable. But deathstalkers stronger than it is on live

[trim ridge]

Is just boring to play or smth then?

[trim ridge]

Oh shit

[pliant topaz]

Gameplay wise it’s some of the most miserable experience I’ve had

[trim ridge]

Yikes

If u say that im scared

[uneven scarab]

I wanna see the sim sequence

Im curious

[crimson dagger]

Are there any sims that I can view showing the 11.0.5 changes? I’m REALLY trying to avoid going assass

[lilac stag]

avoiding a gameplay that make sense and is intuitive vs sub.

[pliant topaz]

It just doubles down on the cdr and uptime issue, u somehow need even kore uptime and cdrs kore relevant. The sequencing of dances and sits is more inconsistent, there’s no anchor really but a total number of casts of dance and sod u can get instead

Like if it’s 0-1.5 u can get 4 dances and sods

If it’s 1.5-3 u get 3 dances and 4 sods

If it’s 3-4.5 u get 3 of each

[uneven scarab]

[crimson dagger]

I’ve actually found real benefit and greatly enjoy being able to shift my burst with shadow dust depending on the fight times.

[pliant topaz]

There’s nothing to anchor sods and dances to anymore it’s. Weird play pattern

[lilac stag]

About that

[topaz raptor]

ahahah

start spattering son

[pulsar quarry]

Oh no, sweet innocent child

[lilac stag]

in case you were not aware. Dust is gone.

any actual thoughtful gameplay. gone

[jaunty umbra]

vanish after cds, very thoughtful indeed

[crimson dagger]

I know RIP dust but yeah I don’t find assass nearly as fun or flexible on fights. With sub if damage phases didn’t line up I could just vanish earlier or later. Assass feels so rigid so I’m hoping sub at least can still be competitive ST

[strange chasm]

So .5 sub is currently just an absolute mess

[lilac stag]

sub is just as rigid without dust. Just the actual gameplay loop with cdr is cancer.

[crimson dagger]

Very true

Anyway were there any sims posted anywhere for what 11.0.5 sub looks like or nah?

[lilac stag]

Nah

They’ll likely get pinned at some point

[charred sandal]

what we thinking about this guy deeps

[uneven scarab]

Tf

Is this like a no finisher build

Where is bte/dispatch

[charred sandal]

he is the combo point broker bro

[uneven scarab]

[lilac stag]

why are we fishing in this channel with outlaw bait?

[merry agate]

Wound poison for good measure

[jade urchin]

is the tripple shadow dance trickster opener inconsistent? i feel like theres some attempts i cant get it right no matter what

[charred sandal]

shiv on the rotation for the wound poison maxing

[rigid pasture]

correct me if im wrong but on a dummy rotation you will get two x3 dance bursts and then you go back to regular two

idk if thats what you mean tho

[jade urchin]

genuine opener in this case

not the second round

[vale pine]

!dot5

[wicked jolt]

The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:

• Talent diversity
• Defensives
• Gameplay
  This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.

[jade urchin]

maybe im overlooking something but it feels like sometimes it just doesnt wanna get the full 3rd secret tech in flag window

[charred sandal]

not bait, genuine guy i got in a run

[rigid pasture]

are you using sectech as first finisher in dance? and are you vanishing right after your sectech

[jade urchin]

yes to both

[rigid pasture]

then I rly have no idea

[jade urchin]

but its supposed to be consistent when played correctly right?

maybe im just fucking up 1 gcd :D

[slender rune]

are you getting all double finishers right?

[rigid pasture]

yeah the only times i can mess that up is if my coup de grace is up and I go for an eviscerate as first finisher instead of sectech, so i might lose my sectech for one gcd

[jade urchin]

no but i cant control the double finishers no?

or am i missing smth

as in when they happen

[slender rune]

you can track it

whenever you have 7+ of the buff, it will refill during symbols

[jade urchin]

ye i know that

but theyre not a fixed point is what i meant

[slender rune]

oh i see, yeah true, they aren't

[jade urchin]

sometimes the clones from sectech are outside of flag window

and i genuinely dont know if its skissue or inconsistent :D

the 3rd sectech ofc

[raw wadi]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[loud crater]

sub burst is one of the strongest currently in game ?

i wanna play

[lilac stag]

hahah

[vale pine]

yes

for another 10 days probably

[loud crater]

oh ?

then sub ded ?

[pliant topaz]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[gilded ferry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pliant topaz]

not really. lets compare live deathstalker burst to .5 burst

[vale pine]

no, but the burst is lower

[loud crater]

wdym ?

[vale pine]

well

[loud crater]

ah

[vale pine]

the update removes dust

[loud crater]

i see

dust .. ?

[pliant topaz]

on live u see the first burst obviously being higher cu lust pots all cds etc etc

[loud crater]

yes yes

[pliant topaz]

but the spec maintains its burst over the next 3 cases theyre all about the same

[vale pine]

so you can't compress cooldowns as much

[loud crater]

i see

[lilac stag]

Look at the cute cat ears at 150

[loud crater]

but will it still be the biggest burst class ?

[pliant topaz]

however in 0.5 you notice that initial burst is again very high but every next set of cds makes it worse and worse

[jade urchin]

wait i forgor dust will be gone, why am i practicing 3 dance opener

[spark tusk]

:3

[uneven scarab]

Your second secret should go off right as ur entering second dance

[loud crater]

i see

oke oke

[wind canopy]

#1080572530554835072

[pliant topaz]

:3

[vale pine]

think it would be good to know

the scale

[wind canopy]

#1080572530554835072

[hazy breach]

The burst isnt really lowr

[vale pine]

new

[pliant topaz]

i crpped it because sims arent finalized and the actual number is not that importnat

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pliant topaz]

but the burst is significantly higher actually in 0.5

[slender rune]

huh, you can't even really see the solo flags

[vale pine]

old

[loud crater]

so compared to sub , which class currently biggest burst ? i only think of arcane with the totm pop. but now i see sub also going insane

[jade urchin]

ye but somehow clones of 3rd still pop outside of flag sometimes, maybe i just fuck up 1 gcd somewhere

[pliant topaz]

theres no solo flag

[wind canopy]

What’s the current profile look like?

[slender rune]

no? didn't they change it to be 1 min?

[uneven scarab]

Huge mean 3k dps increase

[vale pine]

it kinda is, let me show you waht i mean

[loud crater]

[uneven scarab]

Reverted

1 min 30

[pliant topaz]

no, reverted to 1.5 min. blades is now 1.5 min but only 16 secconds

[slender rune]

damn ok

[pliant topaz]

nah not even close like the opener burst for this is almost 14% higher

but every burst drops alot compared to previous one

u know the problem dust had with vanish charges? where at some point u would run out?

this one has it with sod charges now

but instead of it being clunky at 7 min

it gets fucked at 3 min

[vale pine]

its the duration of the burst

[uneven scarab]

Welp time to add cdr to sod too

[vale pine]

like due to dust

its longer

3 dances

vs. after 2

and the peak damage is slightly higher

so you have more surface below the curve

[wind canopy]

Kinda wish the axes on those graphs were the same 😐

[pliant topaz]

oh im just comparing deathstalker vs deathstalker

so both are 2 dances

roughly same duration

[vale pine]

oh no

you palyed dust trickster for burst

[jade urchin]

is it full deathstalker after .5 patch? do we know yeT?

[uneven scarab]

Trickster is straight deadge after .5

[vale pine]

kinda is yes

[uneven scarab]

Hopefully they see not a single rogue spec plays trickster at that point and do something about it

[jade urchin]

maybe i should just wait to offspec sub then for patch :D

[pliant topaz]

its still higher than tricksters initial peak. but dies at around 26 seconds instead of 33

[soft summit]

flag and shadow blades can be macroed together in 11/0.5 ya?

[jade urchin]

u still want to flag spender sb no?

[uneven scarab]

Probably not bc you’d still want to flag->finisher->blades still

[wind canopy]

It's 45/90 now right for dances/SoD?

I think I asked that already...

[young path]

Any chance nimble gets fixed to 50% with the patch?

That would be troll AF to do such a redesign and not even fix a known issue such as damage tuning

[left ledge]

lmao

[young path]

Super troll

[uneven scarab]

Fire mage ignite fixed in 3 days

[left ledge]

did they fix blades with sectec yet?

no?

def not fixing nimble then

[uneven scarab]

Nimble broken since release

[left ledge]

i mean

there's a boss that uses uses shadow clones called "shadowblades"

drops a haste mastery dagger that has no special effect

just says

"nothing personal"

double meaning

[vale pine]

not surer if its perfect but

interessting

[vivid cobalt]

yeah whoever is doing this sub redesign is not it man

[left ledge]

there's no sub redesign

[young path]

I’m just imagining a string game code that reads:

Blah/blah/blah/.4/blah

Like ffs just have someone bump it to

Blah/blah/blah/.5/blah

[uneven scarab]

Nothing personal meaning they hate sub rogue

[left ledge]

they def hate this spec

i think we figured that out a long time ago

someone was pulling a frieza on us

[uneven scarab]

“We’d rather you not play sub”

[pliant topaz]

nope its a complete disaster

[left ledge]

im just confused as to why they keep specs in the game that they dont care about

just disable sub until you guys feel like putting it back into the game

rotate specs in and out

[wind canopy]

What's it looking like now?

[soft summit]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger

[pliant topaz]

idk something like
4 dances 4 sods from 0-1.5 min
3 dances 4 sods from 1-5 - 3 min
3 dances 3 sods from 3-4.5 min
4 dances 4 sods from 4.5-6

something like that

theres no anchor so u dont dance very 30 seconds or someting or when sectechs available

[wind canopy]

[pliant topaz]

u just kinda dance when darkest night is up and u can get sectech somewhere in there

so like 0-1.5 min

it double dances and double sods on opener

then the cadence is every 20 seconds

then it afks no dance no sods for 40

holds cds for 10

sends

[left ledge]

that sounds so fucking ass

[pliant topaz]

then u dance sod 20 sec after cds

[left ledge]

holy shit

LMAO

[pliant topaz]

then u afk till 3

yeah its the worst experience ive had playing this spec so far

[lilac stag]

and that’s assuming uptime / cdr yea?

[pliant topaz]

not sre how much of it is ptr lag how much lack of wft(that shit is even more important now pretty sure) , how much the spec

[wind canopy]

@tribal blade https://wago.io/5FWtjYFgC

Yeah, this legit sounds awful though in terms of CD usage...

That isn't really intuitive outside of Flag/Blades

[left ledge]

well

i know what i wont be playing in .5

[pliant topaz]

same

[left ledge]

guess ill just wait for classic to catch up

[hazy breach]

Did it seem to do more damage than the "regular" build for you too armin

[left ledge]

go enjoy sub rogue there

[pliant topaz]

oh yeah its a lot more

when i tested it on the dummy it was also a lot better, the darkest night alignment thingy has other impacts that kinda anchors the cds better

even on bugged state on ptr it was better

[hazy breach]

Ye thats what hacha and i were seeing too, so its probably not sims being wrong

[left ledge]

what build

[orchid heron]

Are you saying sub is actually going to be better here shortly

[hazy breach]

Worse

[left ledge]

[hazy breach]

A few percentage better numerically

[pliant topaz]

damage up gameplay through the core of the planet

[orchid heron]

Oof

[left ledge]

"damage up"

still bottom tier

[vivid cobalt]

worse in m+ for sure

[orchid heron]

Assa and Outlaw it is

[pliant topaz]

its a noticable gain on the damage

[vivid cobalt]

a lot worse

[orchid heron]

I just hate bones

[pliant topaz]

not huge but not too small

[hazy breach]

But worse to play, less defensives and its complicated in a different way

[left ledge]

its not going to be enough i guarantee you that

[hazy breach]

So its not really getting dumbed down

[pliant topaz]

its like 3.5%

[wind canopy]

Yeah, sounds like it

[left ledge]

yeah 3.5% rn puts us where

[pliant topaz]

i swear this shit was breking my mind

[left ledge]

like lower mid?

[pliant topaz]

i felt lost in the space

had no idea when im supposed to send things

legit made an ERT note for myself to follow the sims send timers

[wind canopy]

lol

[pliant topaz]

and once i was close to those timers i was aligning for DN etc

[hazy breach]

Thats partly not being used to it

[left ledge]

3.5% buff would put us below arms warrior here

[hazy breach]

But ye its oof

[pliant topaz]

i mean idk because youre not waiting on sectech

or sod cd

or dance cd

or darkest night even

its just doing things that seem somewhat random

and im trying t make sense of it

[left ledge]

but we lose our burst, lose our cleave, and our damage becomes flatter and less on demand

boggerz

[pliant topaz]

like even in the fixed version, it sods on darkest night then doestn dance for 4 seconds because sectechs too far

[lilac stag]

What happens if you full send?

[hazy breach]

Its holding symbols until darkest night, and doesnt send dance unless symbols has >6 seconds left

[hazy breach]

Like -5%

[pliant topaz]

yeah i read that part, but if u sod right now , sod duration is > 6 seconds

so why isnt it dancing

[left ledge]

oh great

so the spec is now harder to play

[hazy breach]

Most of the power of the extra symbols is aligning things better

[left ledge]

am i gonna have to be like outlaw

[pliant topaz]

instead it sends 3 backstabs and an evis

[left ledge]

and have a WA play the game for me

"roll the bones now" gonna turn into "shadow dance now"

[lilac stag]

Sure but if cdr is that tight, it’s not going to be realistic

[alpine wraith]

there are still some procs from wm

but kinda

because shadowcraft is now second fiddle

[left ledge]

speaking of wm

did they fix sht stacks with wm

[hazy breach]

No

[left ledge]

[pliant topaz]

like it was delaying dance but i legit dont know why

[alpine wraith]

well if they fix shadowed working with supercharger and DN

[hazy breach]

The only thing thats fixed is coup cdr

[alpine wraith]

things could go a bit better

[pliant topaz]

if i can figure that out maybe i can figure out timings kekw

[left ledge]

why did you specify cdr

does it still not give snd

[pliant topaz]

oh yeah holy shit thats funny af

nothings working with shadoed finishers its too funny

[hazy breach]

Idk didnt check, but it doesnt really matter

You have full uptime of it anyway

[pliant topaz]

gotta be an inside joke at this point

[left ledge]

yeah i guess

[pliant topaz]

doesnt

[hazy breach]

The energy and the cdr both work

[alpine wraith]

i mean they purposefully made things to not work

like who the F wants to complicate evis

and sec tech is another plate of bad pasta

stinky shitty pasta

[left ledge]

OH WE GET RELENTLESS WITH IT NOW TOO?

HOLY

but trickster sucks ass

[alpine wraith]

yea 15 cp relentless

[pliant topaz]

spec feels insanely spammy now to

like season 1/2 levels of spammy

[alpine wraith]

cap energy congratiulations you get 3 stabs

[left ledge]

stab city

[pliant topaz]

except its not doing damage

its farming cp

LMFO

[left ledge]

cp farmers

[pliant topaz]

it might be the worst possible version they could make of the spec ngl

[hazy breach]

Its still not that spammy tbf its 60 apm

[alpine wraith]

yea it has moments where you brain freeze for 30 secs

and just think about life

[pliant topaz]

thats true current one is even more spammy i guess with deathstalker

but it feels more spammy idkd how to put

[alpine wraith]

and why these team devs have a job maybe they are cooking something

[hazy breach]

But ye current is 60 too

[wind canopy]

Sounds more of it being less methodical in terms of how you press your buttons rather than how often you press them?

In terms of spammy

[pliant topaz]

51 to 60 is a big jump

[fierce cedar]

seems like top runners still do trickster in m+ guys

maybe its not over lol

[alpine wraith]

top loggers is like kindergarten for sub

literally my 11 key logs are like top 100

[pliant topaz]

nah pretty sure its very very strict when you press cds

[alpine wraith]

and those were 3 weeks ago

other specs are doing 14

[pliant topaz]

like im pretty sure youre supposed to flag rupture dance strike sectech blades

[fierce cedar]

lol

[pliant topaz]

but it was really hard to get that to work in sims

properly

[alpine wraith]

yea it is a bit krangled

[wind canopy]

I mean, beyond the CDs

[pliant topaz]

becuse everything relies on other cds and it gets fucked

[pliant topaz]

nah the dances have very specific timers too

[wind canopy]

Hmm

[pliant topaz]

theyre all 20 sec apart

[alpine wraith]

yea SoD charges are kinda static

[pliant topaz]

except sometimes u hold for 40

somtimes u hold for 1 minute

[alpine wraith]

so you keep sending until you DONT

[pliant topaz]

depending on where in the fight you are minute wise

[lilac stag]

Top runners play

[pliant topaz]

its the same problem dust had with vanish charges

[left ledge]

i mean for a spec thats 1 sec gcd locked and has energy with not that many ogcds...

[pliant topaz]

but now its with sod charges, and they run out real fast

[fierce cedar]

top sub players then...

[left ledge]

there's nobody actually playing sub

[wind canopy]

Fair. Either way, sounds miserable still

[fierce cedar]

there is 1 dude doing a little lol

[left ledge]

dude

[fierce cedar]

not going that well but he did 2 13s lol

[left ledge]

the top assa rogue is literally 400 points ahead

[alpine wraith]

he must have great friends

mine gave up

[fierce cedar]

;p

let him cook

[left ledge]

he can cook as long as he wants

wont change the fact that sub rogue is the lowest io spec in the game

for good reason

[lilac stag]

Acceptance is very hard for some.

@vale pine one of our guild members found some more bugs with wow.

[vale pine]

haha nice, did hear people love to get the codes ^^

[alpine wraith]

codes are cool

problem is they are NA only was about to ask my cousins to get some palets of mountain dew

for the bikes

[tropic pier]

Will subtlety show up in MDI for the speed shroud?

Would be cool to see!

[alpine wraith]

not likely

[pliant topaz]

LOL

[haughty mural]

Highly doubt that

[shrewd lantern]

nice meme

[alpine wraith]

well let the man know

[shrewd lantern]

would take longer to leave instance

and change to a real spec

[alpine wraith]

sadly we are about 20 to 30% behind the big boys with their perfect comp

you could make a perfect comp for subg

and still suck from 10 to 20%

vs a dps that also benefitted from all the buffs

like instantly if the comp had no shaman we already lose like 5% dps or more

warrior/dh/monk each also are about 3 to 5

[topaz raptor]

can they hearth and respec in mdi

[alpine wraith]

no

[topaz raptor]

its over

[alpine wraith]

same reason if they didnt get full count in dht

[shrewd lantern]

mdi with no echo

is going to be weird

[alpine wraith]

they were disqualified because you are not allowed to go outside

[swift tinsel]

very

should do a Break the Meta mdi

[lilac stag]

Still wouldn’t take sub

[swift tinsel]

sub rogue, resto druid, arms warrior

[alpine wraith]

he is asleep but may wake up in like 8 or 9 hours

[native zodiac]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[woeful horizon]

is trickster the go to for sub mythic?

[alpine wraith]

depends on boss

[steel sierra]

Across all mythic plus key levels per raider.io, sub, by a large margin, is the least played spec. 26k sub rogues followed by outlaw at 75k and arms war at 85k

[woeful horizon]

im feeling why its 26k sub players only right now

[steel sierra]

Hoping the 11.0.5 changes help, but they seem like an overall nerf as pointed out by many

[hazy breach]

Its not a numerical nerf, its actually a buff

[alpine wraith]

they actually make sub more annoying to play

and you are squishier

[topaz raptor]

because you can go sin on the exact same gear and be more useful

[alpine wraith]

both of the things m+ players die by

[topaz raptor]

same with arms

[steel sierra]

Playing sub as deathstalker in M+ feels horrid. I just stick with trickster

[hazy breach]

Likely it just feels worse to play and has fewer defensives

[alpine wraith]

yea deathstalker is even squishier

one good thing is we are at least more tanky than assa pog

oh wait they do 400k+ more dps

and silence in aoe

and now have good st too

im actually missing MFD for sub

i wish we got like 2 or 3 stacks of it to just use

or old premed but with some charges to sometimes fill cps

when you get the dreaded 4cp or 3 cp snag

[steel sierra]

I've said this before in sub chat, but having an alt ret pally that did Zekvir ?? at 605 and has like 3 buttons, it feels bad man lol

Still struggling at 625il sub but I haven't tried in a couple weeks, roughly 10 pulls in

[hazy breach]

They attempted to simplify the rotation, but from what weve found so far it doesnt seem that much simpler, in some ways its more complicated

So ye..

[woeful horizon]

out of all talents/skill ive seen in retail shuriken tornado is sht

lazy design jesus

[wanton bronze]

is the wowhead guide updated to reflect rotation/talent recommendations after the BP change?

also what do the arrows indicate

[alpine wraith]

yea those work

the m+ deathstalker one is not with dust

but i would not recommend it if you are not an advanced player

[wanton bronze]

why do some builds have arrows pointing to them

[alpine wraith]

the gameplay changes are quite jarring

[wanton bronze]

idk if ill touch deathstalker period, seems like every time its mentioned people are just talking about how bugged it is

[alpine wraith]

it is annoying to play

just plain and simple

it will perform better on most situations now tho

if you dont krangle it up

but doing that is not hard

so fuck it

[woeful horizon]

yo could you gimme a tldr death stalker dark brew rotation

[alpine wraith]

use cds every 2 mins

put ruptures

[woeful horizon]

see if im fkin things up

[alpine wraith]

remember to hit your main target

spend DN as prio always

you can sometimes snipe a DN on a low hp target and get another DN fast

[woeful horizon]

you need to spend DN right away to get stacks of mark again right?

[alpine wraith]

yes

or of the target dies

[woeful horizon]

thats the main point to spend it right away

i see

[alpine wraith]

many of the hero talents dont work if mark is not up

[wanton bronze]

"what's DN?"

[wanton bronze]

so wait youre recommending Deathstalker in m+ even though its kinda buggy?

it just does more dps anyways?

[hazy breach]

Implying trickster isnt buggy

But yes, deathstalker should be better in every scenario besides 2 target cleave

[wanton bronze]

i havent really been playing my rogue so im trying to pick a starting point

i havent been playing shadowdust at all so im not concerned about the m+ build not having it, if its better ill play it if its not i wont

[hazy breach]

Without shadowdust trickster is never the play

[jaunty heath]

well that was a big nerf

[woeful horizon]

how bad is it that i dont have a skardyns / transmiter to use along with cd?

[wanton bronze]

interesting, when i first leveled up my rogue shadowdust trickster was personal preference and i was recommended not to take it because post-nerf it was just meh and felt bad

[jaunty heath]

but they didnt nerf the mini adds

[hazy breach]

Ye because we hadnt realized nimble flurry was doing 40% dmg instead of the 50% it said

[alpine wraith]

i mean deathstalker performs better i just dont like it so i dont play it

but not like you have a choice next patch

anyway

[hazy breach]

So nimble doing 20% "less" than it should and BP getting buffed by 35%

Means trickster is just not it

[vestal escarp]

ok so 0.5 sub meta if boss dies at inc

we're gonna dominate normal and hc logs again

[alpine wraith]

not even you cant condense cds again

so we are worse fdks now

you can spend all your SoD charges tho

for great backstabbing action

[vestal escarp]

yeah i mean

30s kills

cause every set of cds afterwards is worse

[rigid pasture]

boost run spec?

[vestal escarp]

nope sorry, fight cant last that long

[hollow cobalt]

What ? Trickster is dead ? I dont want to play DS 😩

[soft summit]

What’s the out of shadow dance rotation going to be in 11.0.5? Same as now? Refresh ruptures, shurikan storm, eviscerate?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Or well, you wouldnt shuriken and eviscerate

[alpine wraith]

1 day slam

[hazy breach]

Shuriken+bp or backstab+evis

[alpine wraith]

and no we sleep

[wanton bronze]

whats annoying about DS, just playing around DN? it seems like i might get DN procs and have to Evisc when i might want to rupture/sec tech instead, is that it?

[soft summit]

Is the window out of shadow dance shortened? Right now I feel like my shadow dance will be up but I’m waiting on sod. Or sod is up but I’m waiting on shadow dance.

Thinking with 3 charges of sod it’ll always be up for shadow dance

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really change anything

The main gameplay is the same

Except you get some more cdr

You still want to wait with dance until your symbols is ready, even if you have symbols up from before

Because of supercharger

Like this patch doesnt fix any of subs issues

[soft summit]

Can you explain why we get more cdr?

[hazy breach]

It just makes em worse

Because we have more uptime of symbols

So you can backstab+sht more

[wanton bronze]

even with the BP buff we still evisc on AOE?

[hazy breach]

If you have DN yes

You need to reapply the mark

But youre probably watching the trickster rotation

[wanton bronze]

thats the only timeline shown and its just "sub rogue" it doesnt differentiate between specs

[soft summit]

Why does symbols give us more backstabs? The tool tip just says backstab extends sod

[hazy breach]

Theres a toggle at the top iirc

[hazy breach]

More energy from shadowcraft

[wanton bronze]

nah for opener thats it

[soft summit]

Ah gotcha thanks

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker uses bp at 2 or more targets, not evis

[wanton bronze]

beautiful

[hazy breach]

And it takes roughly 8 or so targets for BP to do more damage to your main prio target than eviscerate would

[wanton bronze]

so prio damage/ST is always evisc, and always evisc with DN, but otherwise 2+ targets is BP

[hazy breach]

BP at 2+, dont evis unless its pure st or DN is up

My point was that even for prio BP is fine with more targets

[wanton bronze]

oo

[hazy breach]

Because singular focus

[hard ember]

oh i didn't even think of singular focus

wait that's kind of cool

like getting compensation in huge aoe

wait i previously wished it was like more aggressively tuned but now i like it

[wanton bronze]

do you ever drop anything to pick up Shiv for utility

like if youre the only soothe

[hazy breach]

If you want to enrage dispel sure

[wanton bronze]

what would you drop

[hazy breach]

Whatever you want

Theyre utility points

[sinful sluice]

Wtf is this mad queen dmg

[uneven scarab]

Trinket owns

Thing crits for like 4 health bars

[topaz raptor]

yeah it's a great trinket

but keep in mind it has a very low passive stat budget and costs a gcd

so it should be much higher on details than other trinkets

[uneven scarab]

Make sure u use it with lingering on deathstalker for the 30% amp too

[topaz raptor]

does that still work

[hazy breach]

Ye they aint fixin shit

[topaz raptor]

mqm kills the void emissary from 40% and if you get the reset it'll be up for every single emissary

the xalatath affix

kind of nice for that week

[vale lagoon]

i mean it IS pretty aggressively tuned for sin right

i was messing around with sims

gosh their singular focus is like an entirely different node :(((

[pliant topaz]

thats because it works with everything for them

for sub it basically works with nothign

also sin mastery double dips

[steel sierra]

When DN is up and there's 10+ targets, is it still better to evis than BP?

[vale lagoon]

wait can u elaborate??

[uneven scarab]

Bp is like the only thing that procs it

for us

[vale lagoon]

...of course

because secret technique comes from pets again?

[uneven scarab]

sin has like, Spatter cleave, Ct, poison bomb etc..

they have so many more instances of damage proccing it

[vale lagoon]

see if we actually had enough dmg loaded into bp/sectech worked, that wouldn't matter

but yeah

rip sub lmao

[uneven scarab]

I think just the fact half our kit doesnt even work with sectech

Is very telling

our “big finisher”

isnt very big

Idk dont get me wrong bp is pretty fuckin strong after the buffs but still

[vale lagoon]

pretty strong for a sub spell

still doesn't hold a candle to CT

[uneven scarab]

Ct fuckin cranks for sure

[vale lagoon]

im wondering why sub can't also have the scaling dmg component tbh

[uneven scarab]

Sub needs god

[sinful sluice]

When do you guys proc mad queens? Inside Dance+symbols or outside?

Seems dance and symbol increase trinket dmg a lot but not sure if its worth it

[lilac stag]

During lingering

[uneven scarab]

Yeah lingering works with mad queens

Always during that

[vale lagoon]

im sad that the twin fang instrument thing isn't super strong tho

seems like such a cool sub item

a music box looking item for the "dance" spec

:(((

[pliant topaz]

Only physical part of bp. Shadow part welll :^)

[uneven scarab]

LMFAOOO

im gonna quit this game dude

what the fuck

[vale lagoon]

MAN

more and more im just getting this feeling that sub isn't even all that bad

we're just straight up broken

[lilac stag]

it’s bad. The bugs are just icing on the shit cake you’re eating.

[vale lagoon]

idk, i feel like sub isn't as doomer in m+ where ur constantly in aoe and you can actually feel your CDs being reset

just wet noodle

[hexed bluff]

It's tough for sure

[vale lagoon]

yeah and i can't help but feel like the 11.0.5 buffs won't rly bring us out the bottom of the barrel d tier status

[vale lagoon]

lmao seems abou right for a pack where nobody pops cd

[lilac stag]

Overall

[vale lagoon]

maybe they should just turn sub into a tank spec, might solve the tank shortage

kek

[lilac stag]

For a GB. Kekw

[vale lagoon]

ehhhhhhhh GB actually is one of the few places where we can pad hard no

[lilac stag]

that rogue couldn’t

[vale lagoon]

but ig u dont out-pad sin still lmao

[lilac stag]

Inted his own key by not dropping spikes out on first boss. Trying to vanish the flame adds and it exploded on him.

[vale lagoon]

LUL

[lilac stag]

as much as I rather play sub (when it’s playable) there really is no point. Can’t wait to see logs post queen nerf and if assa takes over there in mythic.

[vale lagoon]

Yeah I'm also quite discouraged

gonna feel around for a week after the 11.0.5 change

if it still doesn't work by then i'm just gonna swap sin and get the free 3kio

instead of being hardstuck at fking 2.5~2.6 lmao

[lilac stag]

i'm just crest farming

wish I cared. its been beaten out of me

[vale lagoon]

yeah it really just doesn't feel the same

barely even excited for vaults anymore

it took me full mythic bis in every slot

[lilac stag]

When a spec is bad, it ruins the fun

[vale lagoon]

to get to this point back in df s1 lol

[lilac stag]

but they still don’t get that

[vale lagoon]

ah ig not full mythic lmao

missing the spark to craft boots

[tidal salmon]

trickster was shit af before the 35 buff

but rn ds aint that bad

not great but not that bad also

[lilac stag]

it's not good and it gets worse

[vale lagoon]

i think blizzard is literally just sacking sub on purpose

[lilac stag]

in a week

[wispy nebula]

so is trickster back or we following the pin?

not that it really matters at this point

[tidal salmon]

na it doesnt

[lilac stag]

you play assa

[vale lagoon]

i feel like they're afraid of ppl malding over having to learn sub

so they literally just broke the spec out of the blue

and focus on sin/OL

but mostly sin

[tidal salmon]

we play db ds rn anyways it wont change

i dont really feel that weak compared to a fdk rn

[vale lagoon]

wat

as sin right

[tidal salmon]

pretty much beat them on aoe also mostly

na as sub lol

[shrewd lantern]

you playing with some turbo shit dks

then

[tidal salmon]

dont you guys open like 10-12m+ on nw or sv first pull

maybe even 15+

[vale lagoon]

????

is it tornado build lol

[tidal salmon]

yeah

[vale lagoon]

bcuz that's super unfun imo

i hate being weak on st

[tidal salmon]

doing 15m aoe is fun tho

mfs cry half their breath got wasted

[vale lagoon]

i find that rly hard to imagine tho

[tidal salmon]

and like on 11-12 keys im talking about, not 9-10

[vale lagoon]

im guessing it's also transmitter gap lol

[shrewd lantern]

i’ve gotten 10 on sin

[tidal salmon]

na but i use 639 skyradin

[shrewd lantern]

might be close to 15 on sub with aug

[vale lagoon]

...oh may god rest ur soul next patch

[tidal salmon]

there wasnt even sham or monk in the party when i saw 15 also, only war and aug

someone said earlier today, 'we're like weaker fdk rn'

[vale lagoon]

but yeah with double passive trinket and 0 aug, im more about 3~5 million on stuff like AK 1st pull lol

[tidal salmon]

pretty accurate it is lol

[tidal salmon]

i wouldnt play sub if i didnt had an active trink ngl

it feels so bad lol

at least skyradin, or even that delve inject trink idk

[vale lagoon]

and the next pull after the 3~5 mllion, where the pull is small and i only have symbols + dance, im always just like 1 mil dps xD

my guildies legit say I "pad" on the bosses in keys lol

[tidal salmon]

its pretty accaptable to do tank dmg sometimes

but 3-5m on cds seems low tbh

[vale lagoon]

yeah idk

[tidal salmon]

an active trink is giga crucial for sub

[vale lagoon]

ngl tho even if i get transmitter in vault

i REALLY just don't want to take it

we have no good active trinkets this tier i swear

[lilac stag]

just wait as they forget 90 sec agility trinkets in 11.1 and you're stuck with transmitter

[vale lagoon]

hoping annivesary patch's raid has something

[tidal salmon]

none of the current trinks are half good of ashen ngl

[lilac stag]

transmitter is fine. takes a few tries to get used to it

[tidal salmon]

skyradin not that bad tho

[vale lagoon]

fuck anything i have to get used to

[lilac stag]

why are you playing sub then? kekw

[vale lagoon]

changing my play = shit

[tidal salmon]

i mean its shit power vise, but at least doesnt make u cancer when you use

[vale lagoon]

there's legit a reason why i can only play like 1 tier of every expac lol

fuck change

[tidal salmon]

welp things might change instantly

[vale lagoon]

i mean there's nothing i'm even used to now lmao so

[tidal salmon]

we werent even considered a spec, but out of a sudden we got %35bp and became somewhat viable

[vale lagoon]

i really dunno man

but also

i swear skardyn trinkets is actually awesome

[tidal salmon]

might end up getting sth again and everyone cries sub is broken

[vale lagoon]

it's just sad

that it gets fucked by 90 sec spec change

[tidal salmon]

639 skyradin is like %20 worse than my 606 veteran transmitter lol

but i convinced myself at least skyr gives main stat

[vale lagoon]

[tidal salmon]

fuck haste bruh

[vale lagoon]

ikr

so horrible

i swear they meant for it to be a dh trinket or something

[tidal salmon]

it goes brrrr also with assa

[vale lagoon]

didn't even care about us when they made it

[shrewd lantern]

nah

[tidal salmon]

ah i was talking about skyr

[shrewd lantern]

dh wants skardyn too psure

since they’re crit mast

[vale lagoon]

not haste?

huh

mb then lol

[shrewd lantern]

they take the talent

that makes all their damage chaos

[vale lagoon]

wait

[shrewd lantern]

which is their mastery

[vale lagoon]

ALL?

like blade dance and shit?

[shrewd lantern]

well the stuff that was magic

bladedance got changed from physical to chaos

in df

[vale lagoon]

dang

they're literally

what we were supposed to be

[shrewd lantern]

so literally all their damage

[vale lagoon]

https://tenor.com/view/tobey-maguire-that-was-today-they-stole-it-from-me-pawn-sacrifice-they-took-it-gif-23155880

[shrewd lantern]

procs ansurek ring

i mean they are a 5s burst window spec

every 40s

[vale lagoon]

so us in df

but viable

and with actually visible animations

and double jump

and leech

and all the best slutmogs

[tidal salmon]

just be thankful we dont have wings tho

[vale lagoon]

WHAT

[tidal salmon]

shit is gay af

%100

[vale lagoon]

you don't want wings?

[tidal salmon]

naaa

[vale lagoon]

you don't want demon wings

wow

[tidal salmon]

being demonic feels ight

[shrewd lantern]

double jump lets you get up to some shenanigans

[tidal salmon]

wings arent it tho

[shrewd lantern]

in delves

[vale lagoon]

wait til u find out im rolling a dracthyr to have wings and get that infinite dragonflight assassin vibe

u know those mobs from end time dungeon?

[shrewd lantern]

the leech is just funny

you can pull stupid amount of mobs

beam

oh full hp again

from 5%

[vale lagoon]

or just

[shrewd lantern]

[vale lagoon]

fucking not run ur healer oom

on the unavoidable damages of the patch

[shrewd lantern]

thats balanced out

by the frontals you inevitably dash into

[vale lagoon]

like the moment i get the poiosn on AK last boss, or the circle from SoB last boss

on rogue

my heartrate spikes to like

500 bpm

i swear

and my finger is just perma on cloak

[shrewd lantern]

oh

[vale lagoon]

hovering

[shrewd lantern]

i dwarf first one

[vale lagoon]

nah im like 5'3 irl i aint playing as a dwarf in game too

altho

more and more im feeling like the undead racial is actually underrated

so many fears this tier

[shrewd lantern]

ehh...

[vale lagoon]

it's no dwarf cleanse but like

idk

[wanton bronze]

with shadowdust in DS raid build, wouldnt this 2nd flag+blades come at 60s and not 90s?

or do you not vanish the 2nd one to pull blades anymore

[steel horizon]

its gonna be fight dependent but you generally dont wanna do that if you have transmitter

[wanton bronze]

goootcha

i just grabbed transmitter from raid finder, didnt realize it was so good we would save CDs for it

[crisp lion]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[uneven scarab]

17k agi on use is alot

Def wanna line it up

[wanton bronze]

so im always just using vanish after flag+blades?

i mean typically

i get its fight-dependent

[steel horizon]

on DS yeah

on trickster you use it after 1st sectec

sorry what i mean is that on DS you can just use it after your first dance ends if you like. before you go into the second dance

flag and blades will still be up at that time of course

[livid olive]

Hello, please don't ban me how do I find out the race of a chinese wow character

[tribal blade]

i'm selling out, 12 siege

[livid olive]

This is not racially motivated

[wanton bronze]

yeah thats what i remember from DF, but i see the opener on wowhead suggests blades -> sectech -> vanish immediately

[steel horizon]

thats for trickster

because with trickster, the goal is to fit 3 dances & 3 sectecs into the flag window

on DS however, thats not possible

technically on DS, you can vanish right after the sec tec as well if you want

[wanton bronze]

is there another resource that has separate openers for each hero tree

[steel horizon]

it shouldnt make much of a difference whether u vanish right after 1st sectec or right after 1st dance ends, before you go into 2nd dance

[wanton bronze]

i just wanna vanish before 2nd dance for the 2nd symbols right

[steel horizon]

yeah of course. u wanna have that 2nd symbols roll into the 2nd dance + sectec for sure

either way though, the vanish timing on DS isnt super important as far as i know

[tribal blade]

if you vanish right after you sectec as DS you still have subterfuge window coming out of 1st dance

so it doesn't seem bad to do it

[wanton bronze]

so you can milk another SS in subterfuge while you still have 2s left on 1st symbols?

[steel horizon]

you'll get an extra shadowstrike if you vanish after the 1st dance is done anyway

cus youll be in stealth

[regal stag]

will we have anything to compensate the loss of shadowdust ?

[steel horizon]

theres a lot of changes. i suggest reading the ptr patch notes

[regal stag]

on my way to read it !