subtlety

[hazy breach]

Without BL

[vale pine]

btw.

[hazy breach]

So its like the triple sectech situation for trickster

[vale pine]

try without windflurry

[hazy breach]

Except its 2 sectechs for db

[vale pine]

too

[hazy breach]

Rather not

[vale pine]

well mythic+

will be most of the time

without

[hazy breach]

Ye ik

[vale pine]

ill look at the apl in a bit

maybe i find some big gains

did you sync your testing with armin already?

[hazy breach]

Ye

or well, i havent done much

[vale pine]

[hazy breach]

Started like half an hour ago

[rugged condor]

Im surprised. I thought removing shadowdust would be a huge blow for subs dps

[hazy breach]

Well they reduced the cd of blades

[vale pine]

well it is

kinda

[hazy breach]

And supercharger is insanely strong

Despite not working with shadowed finishers

[vale pine]

but supercharger and the lower blades cooldown

can compensate a bit

also from what i see

it looks not great for trickster

[hazy breach]

Ye trickster is horrid

[lucid jackal]

Why

[rugged condor]

Rip. I was very anti dust but trickster was so fun

[vale pine]

its fairly easy

the power of trickster was in dust

you could keep flawless form stacks

and 3x secret

but dust gone makes the entire burst cycle of it worse

which was... all of its damage

[hazy breach]

Dark brew is also a lot better on deathstalker

Because of all the plague damage

[lucid jackal]

oooooo

[hazy breach]

And the new 2x symbols talent seems pretty unplayable from initial impressions, but its possible theres some tech we just havent found yet

[candid mural]

Do we line up supercharger with sec-tech and/or darkest night evis?

[rugged condor]

triple symbols would be so fun

[hazy breach]

Its up for every sectech ye

[vale pine]

think it comes back to what we discussed yesterday (i think you ended up in chat too)

where the talent is noticable worse than dust

while keeping the same trade offs due to position

[barren plume]

I mean the added symbols is just the dust vanish refreshing it no?

[vale pine]

the problem is the following

ill bring the same example

[hazy breach]

Without the dance cdr

[vale pine]

dust does reset symbols cd each vanish use

[barren plume]

Ohh yea forgot about dance refresh too

[vale pine]

so on a 5 minute fight

you get 3 casts of symbols with dust

and you get 2 casts with the new node

now dust played 2nd vanish charge

if you add that

you had 4 casts of symbols gained

vs. 2 with the new symbols node

so if we remove everything else from dust

it still gives less symbols than dust

[barren plume]

Interesting but aren’t they buffing sod or is that a rumor I’m just now making up

[vale pine]

they added a 3% buff to symbols

to make up

so you get 3% more damage during symbols per point in the node on top

[barren plume]

Hmm that does seem like enough for -2 charges overall

[vale pine]

the problem is

reaching the node

you need to trade off other talents

inev

deeper dagger

[barren plume]

Oh per node

[vale pine]

so the talent node is "expensive"

[barren plume]

Yea

[vale pine]

and as mentioned

the above comparison

ONLY

talked about symbols

it didnt mention:

• secret
• shadow dance
• flagellation
• cold blood

[barren plume]

Removing a point from something else and idk where in the tree it is but I’m sure it’s not in a good spot

[brazen talon]

is there a example new build ?

[barren plume]

All of which get cdr from dust

That does seem like a massive nerf more than an even exchange

Adding in the cdr to evasion and cloak as well

Because being alive is an increase in dmg as well

[vale pine]

link

CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAALjxy0glBzMjhZmZmxMGz2YmZGbzMjZmZMYsMbDAAAgZGMsYWmxsNDjFGWmZbahWmFYA```

[brazen talon]

Thank you !

[vale pine]

it might not be the best build

but we will see

come back one day before patch

we need to test a lot of things still

and see if we get improvements

[barren plume]

How do you test these things?

[vale pine]

simulations

you know raidbots

[barren plume]

How can you test them in sims without the changes being implemented

[vale pine]

you can change the apl

apl = action priority list

[barren plume]

APL? I’m an A P E and don’t know shit

[vale pine]

it is essentially the piece of logic that makes the robot play the rotation

so what we do is

make sure the robot plays correct

[barren plume]

Interesting

[vale pine]

and test multiple ideas of how to improve on it

the sim spits out a dps result

so you have direct feedback if your change was good or bad

and testing can take a long time

e.g. for 10.2

[barren plume]

You big brain me smooth brain and I thank you for your dedication to rogue

[vale pine]

it took me 300+ hours of my free time

[nova falcon]

fuu is a master detective: he finds dps where none exists

[vale pine]

we are a team

[barren plume]

True story

[vale pine]

armin, eleem, me

and whoever else wants to participate

also to demystify it

it is not like we do this only in a secret room without anyone being able to participate

[barren plume]

Yea I see you all in here giving master classes all the time

[vale pine]

ever since i started with TC, i tried to get as many people involved as possible

[barren plume]

I do enjoy listening in when I can

[vale pine]

so even if you don't have the knowlage of how to change things

it is always welcome to have more eyes on the simualtion

and bouncing ideas

e.g. and this can often be just asking questions

one example of bfa i like to reference

was simply somone in here asking

"why do we use shadowblades pre pull"

and it ultimatively lead to a apl improvement

to give a bit more context

bfa was the time blizz thought it would be a smart idea

to give every major cooldown a global cooldown

so shadowblades caused a global cooldown

BUT

[barren plume]

Yea o need more context bfa was my first xpac back after not playing since tbc and I don’t remember casting blades pre pull

[vale pine]

the global cooldown was affected by haste

so if you had f.ex. bloodlust up

it was quite short

the initial testing and assumption

showed it to be a gain pre pull

and it makes logical sense

you don't want to wait a sec during the pull doing nothing

the individual player who asked

didn't know about the haste scaling of the spell

but i did

so i did question the decision too

was it rly good to use it pre pull?

so i did fire up a sim

and within 10 minutes

it was show to be a gain to use blades after applying rupture

the lower gcd was good enough

to be easy offset by better alignment/benefits during blades

[barren plume]

Blades doesn’t effect rupture though does it

[vale pine]

but its a beutiful example, because it shows just how curiosity can lead to discoveries

[hazy breach]

It does

[vale pine]

blades works diffrent now too

they changed it in DF

[plush roost]

This version of blades is chefs kiss

[vale pine]

i personally don't like it

[plush roost]

Season 2 blades was yucky

[vale pine]

11.0.5 makes it 16 sec too

which is a bit meh

[plush roost]

That is quite meh

[barren plume]

So blade’s duration is reduced as well this patch coming up?

[vale pine]

yes

[knotty depot]

Looking at changes it feels like numbers might be quite meh

[vale pine]

blades duration is 16 secs

[barren plume]

None of this sounds like an even exchange to me

[vale pine]

but cooldown 90 secs

instead of 120

(1 min 30 vs. 2 min)

the change does one thing

[barren plume]

I mean it’s currently 1:30 basically

[vale pine]

it keeps the same duration of blades

so you have just as much blades as you had before the change

just use it diffrently

you can now align it to flagellation

which is a benefit

because you don't need to sit on flag for 30 secs

but the 16 sec is very punishing

[barren plume]

I thought flag was moving to 60sec cd

[vale pine]

nope

they reverted that

[barren plume]

Ofcourse they did

[vale pine]

haha i mean you are not incorrect

the 60 sec flag

would have made a lot more sense

but then

i think they are afraid that sub competes with assassiantion

in damage profile

so they "kpet" subtlety at 90 sec

which was one part of dust, not the entire dynamic

[plush roost]

In your opinion, do you think that these changes leave more room for them to design sub? To me it seems like yes? More power can be put in things like backstab and gloomblade now that they don't have to budget dust allowing triple dances and shenanigans like that

[vale pine]

also removed 120 sec niche

or potential to shine on short fight lenghs

[vale pine]

i think you can look at it in 2 ways

the first one is, it is a incomplete change that starts a bigger rework

[barren plume]

We shall see I guess, if it turns out to be the nerf I’m envisioning, they gotta fix it shortly after

[vale pine]

the seocnd one is, it was a dirty quick removal of dust which was assumed to be a problem

[charred sandal]

Like hero talents

[vale pine]

i like to go with the more positive option

and say

its a first step

[plush roost]

I'd hope so, because I'm ngl these changes make sub look kind of boring to play

[vale pine]

it makes it noticably worse

in all metrics

what i mean is

before people keep saiyng i am dooming again

the gameplay gets worse

[barren plume]

I wish they would make skill expression a thing yea it’s harder to use but if used properly it is untouchable

[vale pine]

talent choice gets worse

we lose a lot of defensive value

[plush roost]

Which is an accomplishment with how they are set up currently xd

[vale pine]

and we lose options to customize the spec

[plush roost]

Yeah been playing a lot of sin since awakened and now this season, sins options are so nice

Ya got cleave build, bleed build, VV, imp garrote

Hybrid build

[vale pine]

its a bit of a irony

because subs niche

was tlaent dynamic

[plush roost]

Not anymore :/

[vale pine]

e.g. in 10.0/10.1 DF

you had 3 unique talent builds

[barren plume]

They need to make subs niche skill based

[fair stump]

I'm not sure if I'm a minority, but I hate so much the shuriken into BP playstyle

[plush roost]

They dont have to, its just been what its been for a few seasons now. Season 1-2 sub was probably the most brainoff gameplay

[vale pine]

or in BfA

[barren plume]

I can’t stand it and because of shuriken costing so much energy outside of windows we don’t have the energy to maintain

[vale pine]

you had the option between 2 charges shadow dance

but burst damage during dance

and 3 charges and more sustained

mid legion

Marked for death and death from above

etc

[fair stump]

Also, the BP spam doesn't help with cttc

[still quartz]

give back dfa

[vale pine]

my point is

subtlety had a lot of talent options

now its very reduced

and it gets worse at what it was good at

[barren plume]

I don’t like that, they are dumbing the game down. Make me work for my damage but when I get it right I really get it right and put up serious numbers

[hazy breach]

Well you dont spam bp, you use darkest night

So its fine

[vale pine]

^

[plush roost]

I'm not a fan of it either, but its not a requirement by Blizzard is all

[vale pine]

both hero talents have you use evis

so its not too bad

[silent ruin]

Play fatebound sin rogues then, n flip lucky coins with consistency

[hazy breach]

Idk trickster spams eviscerate way more than deahtstalker spams BP

Yet the meme is "deathstalker only spams BP"

[vale pine]

people don't like BP

[barren plume]

That seems more rng based off a coin flip though not skill? But I haven’t played it so idk

[vale pine]

BP was interessting

when it did damage

[silent ruin]

It's not rng, you can guarantee it under conditions

[vale pine]

and bp/storm did lead to a good standing in multi target

[barren plume]

Ooo interesting

[plush roost]

Gotta admit tho, bp/storm is truely some brainoff gameplay

[charred sandal]

Storm bp was a great improvement over having no AoE at all on BFA

[vale pine]

it was

but so is env spam

or dispatch

[charred sandal]

The thing with it is the monotony of pressing just 2 buttons over and over again

[vale pine]

its a overblown problem

[barren plume]

What was SL season 1 sub I played it but can’t for the life of me remember it because I hated the xpac so much I quit

[vale pine]

yes

seaosn 1 and 2 df

you spread your rupture

[plush roost]

SL S1 sub was very meh

[vale pine]

and then spammed bp

outside of cooldowns

which isn't that bad

again sin can be reduced to env spam

in a similar fashion now

but nobody makes this joke

[plush roost]

Yeah i mean it wasn't bad, was fun reaching mega numbers but it just lacked like one extra keybind to tie it all in to me yknow

[barren plume]

I vaguely remember doing keys and not feeling energy starved outside of windows

[plush roost]

Sin is storm/powder but instead fan/envenom, with mutilates/ruptures/garrotes tied in which is the little extra i guess

At least you needed a target for fan/envenom haha

[silent ruin]

I quit sub when they renamed nightblade to rupture 😄

[plush roost]

Based

[vale pine]

thats because

https://tenor.com/view/lafuddyduddy-drum-duck-cute-drum-roll-please-gif-16950134

shuriken storm energy cost got increased by 30% in 10.2

[plush roost]

35->50 xdddd

[vale pine]

it is one of the top complains peole have

they feel like they do no damage

and never have energy

in mythic+

ever since 10.2

it also reflects on the play rate

subtlety is the least played spec in mythic+

for now

3 patches in a row

[plush roost]

Yo... Give a talent node like shuriken combo, but make storm cost like 80-100 energy thoughts???

[vale pine]

and in raid reached the status of least played

after the fire mage buffs

[vale pine]

i think the intention of it

ended up fine

the dev team tried in 10.2

to slow down gameplay between cooldowns

and make cooldowns more rare

so what was done was

a rework to shift a lot of ressource generation into cooldowns

shadowblades now fills your cps for 20 secs

shadowcraft solves your energy problems

and also gvies more combo points

given that you stack cooldowns

means all damage is concentrated during them

to double down on it

backstab was increased in cost

and shadow dance cdr was nerfed

later on

they also increased storm energy

[plush roost]

I get the intention behind it for sure. Makes you wonder why they'd force themselves into one style, supported only by shadowcraft making it a mandatory capstone

Like how awful would sub be without shadowcraft

[vale pine]

to give the same dynamic for aoe

they also increased storm cost

even tho this was discussed even in here with one of the devs

and there was no general agreement on it

in fact only one person was convinced it was a good idea

while many ended up sceptical

neverless

all of it is what is now more of a problem

[young path]

oof

6 seconds :*(

[vale pine]

soo close

damn

[plush roost]

F

[vale pine]

i think 10.2 had some unexpected changes

e.g. what wasn't realized internally was

just how easy it is to pick up shadowdust

so the entire design around 10.2

was for subtlety to play dark brew

[plush roost]

Thats bad design too isnt it?

[vale pine]

well not rly

how it was undestood was

dust was a optional talent

[plush roost]

Why are we making edge of talent tree capstones mandatory by design

[vale pine]

you could opt in

for a diffrent damage pattern and play style

[plush roost]

Is my question

Like they dont want The Rotten to be mandatory clearly

[vale pine]

again you assume a lot of intention

when most of it is just a consequence of design

if you change something

you never know the real impact

before you test it

you can guess

and you can get yoruself help from people with experience

but still, there are almost always consequences you didn't expect

and subtlety is

lets say we as tc's are very good

in finding stupid ways to play the spec

e.g. dfa was never intended

[jaunty heath]

I love that

Being so good at something you beat the devs intentions

[vale pine]

well its also

they have multiple specs to work on

[jaunty heath]

Of course!

[vale pine]

while we can focus on one

and i also made some very hated things

e.g. backstab in shadow dance

[jaunty heath]

I also think they way sub talents are krangled and work with each other

[plush roost]

Im just going off whatcha said there is all. If they intended DB to be the playstyle then why is it shoved in the corner of the tree? Regardless of how we end up taking talents, not even taking db with the current build, why would you place the intended style capstone in the corner of the tree?

[vale pine]

is 90% of time me creating a monstrosity

[jaunty heath]

It’s easy to oversee while planning the concept of a spec

Unless they rework the spec from scratch

[tribal blade]

i think that's more like making the most out of the weird tools you're given

[jaunty heath]

There always seems to be some cursed tech

[vale pine]

power level, you want capstones to be powerful

flagellation was a capstone prior to 10.2 too

and changed to be easy to get

and now we play it always

[jaunty heath]

Flag is capstone worthy honestly

[tribal blade]

flag should be baseline now possibly

[sacred yarrow]

why was this hated? seemed like a good optimization without added effort

[tribal blade]

or they should put it close to blades up in the tree

[jaunty heath]

But also making strong talents available easier is a trend the whole game has gone towards

When reworking specs

At least

[plush roost]

Okay but if its powerful you're forcing people to be less creative with the talent tree by making them go down the right side of the tree to take db

So why do that?

[vale pine]

see thats the beuty

i am a TC

so i analyse the situation

i can point out things like

moving from 3 talent options to 2 or now 1

but i don't need to justify the devs making decisions that seem not logical

like many things

they have their own internal world build

[silent ruin]

Flagellation effects should be baked into blades, what's the point of pressing 2 buttons with misaligned cooldowns

[vale pine]

and as such they design around that

[plush roost]

Yeah for sure, not saying thats your job. Just pondering their decision

[vale pine]

i honestly don't know

but if it wasn't done

[sacred yarrow]

tough thing to do :(

[vale pine]

subtlety would be way worse

[jaunty heath]

Do you think the way they wanted to change dust on beta

Would’ve been better?

Would be VERY nieche

But still something you COULD use sometimes

[vale pine]

what do you mean

what did they do

[jaunty heath]

When they made it

10/20

[plush roost]

The 10/20 sec dust?

[vale pine]

oh

no

10/20

is absolutely bad

[jaunty heath]

I mean it’s bad for sure but

[vale pine]

the problem with dust is

[jaunty heath]

There could be that one fight in a tier

[vale pine]

how cooldowns are layed out

[jaunty heath]

You know

[vale pine]

you have 2 min blades

1 min 30 flag

so the 30 sec gap is nice

for dust

BUT

[jaunty heath]

Oh yeah I mean that was a problem in itself

But with aligned cds now

[vale pine]

lead to a lot of problems down the line

[jaunty heath]

I thing 10/20 could’ve been something

[vale pine]

in 10.2

we didn't align cooldowns

we did purpusfully desync

and it was rly difficult

because how you played the coodlowns

[jaunty heath]

God flag vanish blades

[vale pine]

had 3 diffrent ways

and these 3 ways

then even had more variations

due to how special boss design was in armirdrassil

[jaunty heath]

Is there uses this raid where it’s casually a gain to still pull cds at 1 mins?

Actually**

[vale pine]

and what this lead to was

us creating a spreadsheet

for every boss, you had between 1 and i think fyrakk had 6-8

diffrent cooldown timers

basically laying out the use over the entire fight

and this was why dust got so much hate

it was horrible to learn

you needed a spreadsheet

each encounter was diffrent

and it did suck in mythic+

[jaunty heath]

Man idk i rolled rogue after amirdrassil so I can’t fully understand how bad it was

But it seems like

It was fun and horrible at the same time?

[vale pine]

it was fun for progress

you could fine tune stuff

[jaunty heath]

Like if you were already a very good sub player you must’ve loved prog

[vale pine]

but once you hit farm

[sacred yarrow]

i lowkey liked the spreadsheet timings

[jaunty heath]

Yeah that’s what I’m thinking

[vale pine]

with ever changing kill timers

was a very bad experience

[jaunty heath]

Prog mustve been very fun

[vale pine]

and for the non enthusiasts

lets say it this way

[jaunty heath]

Yeah well

[vale pine]

echo coms

"can we bring more sub rogues"

"bro you need a phd to learn the spec, we can't just level a alt"

(not exactly what they did say, but the same gist)

[jaunty heath]

My co-rogue/at the time only rogue is an outlaw player snd

When we got to smolderon

Let’s say

[vale pine]

so just to highlight this

[jaunty heath]

I didn’t hear the best things

[vale pine]

the top end of players

[jaunty heath]

[vale pine]

did say

the best palyers in the game

can't quickly learn it

to utialize it on smolderon during the wfr

[fair stump]

was sub rogue that busted that they wanted more of them?

[vale pine]

yes

[jaunty heath]

Yeah I did lean into at the end of s3 just like dabbling into it

[vale pine]

basically think of it like this

you had a fight

[jaunty heath]

I got

Frustrated real fast

[vale pine]

that has vulnerability phases

and they are aligned like the following

first one: 1 min in the fight

every sucessive one after

1.5 min between

and the ONLY spec in the entire game that could fit that

was subtlety

it was so to say the dust niche

[fair stump]

back in DF sub was still a 1.5 min cd burst?

huh

[jaunty heath]

What happened afterwards that all 1 min specs were doing as good as sub? Did they change the interval?

[vale pine]

they nerfed sub

[jaunty heath]

No it was whatever the fuck you needed

Which was crazy

But also annoying to pull off

[vale pine]

its not without trade offs

and you can do it now too

but dust gives a certain bigger area of cooldown alignemnt

[jaunty heath]

The fights just don’t cry for it tho

[vale pine]

i mean its one fight

just to highlight this

we had 2 fights in other tiers

subtlety did completely suck

because of low target cleave

which is a common fight design

[jaunty heath]

Can we also just delete cleave

[vale pine]

we had sarkarath which rogue sucked because of haste buff

[jaunty heath]

Like okay make 1-2 fights per raid

But fuck me man

Every fight

Is cleave

It feels like

[vale pine]

we have now a fight execute is extremely good on with the bug

my point is

its normal that specific fights allow niches to shine

so subtlety being good on smolderon was more a problem

that smolderon was very far in the raid

and it made it extremely powerful

[tepid trellis]

it all comes down to how big of a gap it creates

[vale pine]

^

sub was also tuned rly well

to be fair

and again the raid had many fights sub could exploit the dynamic it had

[jaunty heath]

All this amirdrassil talk made me realize how good it was

From recent raids

[tepid trellis]

for example logs are very "baity" on rasha

cuz they removed all of the adds

[jaunty heath]

Amirdrassil bangs most of them

[tepid trellis]

so only boss dmg counts

but you actually need to kill the adds very quickly

which imo skews this boss alot

[vale pine]

yes not a big fan

[jaunty heath]

That decision was very idk

[vale pine]

i saw a discussion about wcl shananigans

[jaunty heath]

Because this made fury warrior look so op

[vale pine]

and it makes the perception of strength weird

[jaunty heath]

When it did its one job

[vale pine]

in the statistic

[tepid trellis]

and smolderon

[vale pine]

yep

now do a spread cleave fight for comparison

[void hound]

miss him

[vale pine]

moment ill get one

[jaunty heath]

Council of dreams

Bane of my existence

[tepid trellis]

here you go

[jaunty heath]

[tepid trellis]

so whats really funny is

they think this okay to do

but what we did on smolderon wasent

which i dunno

is a bit sus

[jaunty heath]

But that’s boomies nieche!!!

[void hound]

boomies got an eternal gaslighting chokehole on blizzard

thats the difference

[jaunty heath]

The thing is

[tepid trellis]

so here is my tinfoil take

[jaunty heath]

While they designed this fight

They knew this is gonna happen

[tepid trellis]

they are okay with this

cuz it isnt rogue being at the top

[jaunty heath]

They literally forgot about sub

On smolderon

When creating the fight

[tepid trellis]

the community for some reason really hates when rogues do well

[jaunty heath]

Or didn’t even think that sub could be played the way it was on smolderon

[tepid trellis]

dont think the combat design team has any idea how sub was playing out

[obsidian steeple]

is vanish remaining a dps cd in the patch?

[jaunty heath]

Ye that’s what I meant

[tepid trellis]

we ourselves

barely did

[jaunty heath]

Council was very obvious

[tepid trellis]

but the same exact thing happened

on the 2 bosses right after it

[vale pine]

my point

[tepid trellis]

sub was just too flexible

[vale pine]

i think its simpler

[jaunty heath]

Ye, Altho do you think last 2 would’ve been sub if sin didn’t get nuked after rwf?

[vale pine]

they don't like it on higher up bosses

unless its justifiable

[tepid trellis]

yes i actually do

i think people slept HARD on it

[tame solar]

what do we think about the new first dance?

[jaunty heath]

Okay okay, interesting

I don’t because I wasn’t rogueing

[tepid trellis]

interesting concept, but it missed the mark

they undercooked it

[tame solar]

it looks like it would be very annoying to play in M+

[tepid trellis]

they need to lower the time requirement on it

to like 2 sec

[vale pine]

they need to remove it

[tepid trellis]

for pve

[vale pine]

getitng out of combat is arleady a restriction

[tame solar]

getting a restealth is already enough of a reason not to bring rogues to high keys

[vale pine]

other specs cry for

[tame solar]

imagine saying "can we just wait 3 seconds before the next pull"

insane

[vale pine]

so the first dance sounds interessting

but its

"requries stealth"

AND

[tame solar]

yeah right

[vale pine]

"requies 6 sec out of combat after stealthing"

[tepid trellis]

6 sec is waaaaaaaaay to long

[vale pine]

yep

[tame solar]

any amount of time is too long

[tepid trellis]

it should not have a requirement in pve

[vale pine]

exactly

[tame solar]

it's anti synergistic with the PvE they design

[tepid trellis]

id max go to 2 sec

[tame solar]

M+ is a race

[tepid trellis]

anything more and its DoA

[tame solar]

and they are asking you to wait for restealth and wait for multiple seconds

it's just absurd. Reads like a PvP talent.

[charred sandal]

Do not invent purposedly vanishing and waiting 6 sec doing nothing rotation

[jaunty heath]

I would not be surprised atp

I saw some aldarachi reaver sims yday havoc is cooking something and people hope they burn the soup

So i was interesred

In your opener you have like 6 globals of „find soul“

Just run around collect a soul hit 1 ability and go run to the other

[tepid trellis]

also it is alot easier to get restealths than people think

people oversell how much chainpulling is going on

[jaunty heath]

That is true

[jaunty heath]

And even if you still have ways

Stay behind finish one mob, stealth, meet group again with mobility

Etc

You aren’t forced to run with the tank

[hazy breach]

Ye i think the first dance is actually going to be pretty fine for keys, not OP or anything

Theres a lot of times where you get 6 seconds of downtime

Dawnbreaker for example

[tepid trellis]

yeah, still think the 6 sec should be lowered

tho

there just isnt a reason for that restriction

i feel

[hazy breach]

I agree

[tepid trellis]

like i can see it for pvp

but they can tune that seperately

so its just like a massive ?

[near rivet]

this + make it work with vanish

[tepid trellis]

that isnt happening

[near rivet]

like `next SD after entering (true) stealth lasts 4 seconds longer'

[tepid trellis]

they are slowly taking out vanish usage for dmg

[brave escarp]

In shadow dance, what's the priority with Darkest Night, SecTech, Danse Macabre and 5 cp finishers? Should I

1. Use Darkest night as second finisher instead of SecTech
2. Use Dark Night as soon as possible
3. Continue to do 5 cp finishers and consume Darkest Night outside dance (presuming no shadow blades and more shadowstrikes are required)

[tepid trellis]

DN highest prio

[brave escarp]

Is it still priority, if im about to leave shadow dance and have to choose between sectech and dn

[tepid trellis]

then you delayed sectech waaaaay to much

you either sectech 2nd finisher

or third

depending on DN timing

[brave escarp]

Ahm. Thanks

When i enter dance should I always evis before and enter with 0 cp or should I enter with evis ready? (Outside of opener)

[tepid trellis]

doesent really matter

[brave escarp]

Thank you very much

[hazy breach]

@tepid trellis This spec is so cooked man

How is rotten looking like an option even after the patch 💀

[oak idol]

I saw that rotten was an option and dont wanna try your spec anymore

[vale pine]

with pv?

or without

[hazy breach]

Without

[vale pine]

interessting

dark brew buff soon?

[brisk onyx]

Pls

[near rivet]

is there a more boring capstone than dark brew?

[hazy breach]

Extra vanish charge

[near rivet]

uh, yea.
It have/had more depth when its a offensive cd thou

[vale pine]

does not like to get mentioned

dark brew is nice fanatsy wise

rotten and gwb are the 2 capstones i find meh

also the last gate has a lot of talents in need of a rework

[near rivet]

i try to differentiate between something being boring and being shit

if gwb would not be shitty it could be good to play, like if instead of energy cost it would increase finishers dmg by x%

and db is simply buff a buff to magical dmg

purple number go up

[vale pine]

thats one thing i don't understand

goremaws is in fact not bad in design

because it gvies energy and damage

and combo points

so there is a lot to the spell

it helps with energy efficiency

and it does decent damage, can be used for danse

BUT

ultimatively, it solves problems that are boring

or irrelevant

energy is solved with shadowcraft

and slightly more combo points on a builder once every 45 secs

is not that impactful

in contrast

dark brew turns all nature damage in shadow

and changes rupture too to a shadow damage dot

so while passive, it works well with what the spec offers

in fact 10.2 nerfed shadow amps

also in part why its slightly weaker

now when people point out they love goremaws

they tell me

"if the spell did something completely diffrent"

"then it would be good"

"man, i love the spell"

and this diffrent could be

what if it did give full combo points, and made your next 5 finisher consume no combo points

what if it did 20000% ap damage, so it did nuclear damage

but... thats not the spell anymore

thats a mind experiment of how you would create a new spell

and the idea of this new spell is exciting

not goremaws (as the spell it is right now)

boring is not always your enemy

but goremaws is boring too

[alpine wraith]

and does not cleave still with trickster

[vale pine]

haha fair

bugs aside

i hope what i am saying makes sense

[final cedar]

Subtlety talent tree is really a mess the more I look at it, lol

[vale pine]

it would need a lot more new talents

dragonflight only introduced a very small amount of new ones

compared to other classes/specs

and we keep old talents

or legendary powers

which are outdated for how the spec design changed

[final cedar]

I can't help but wonder, does Secret Technique really need to be a talent?

Even the tier set effects don't work properly without Secret Technique, and Trickster doesn't function at all without it. There are so many things that just don't make sense

[vale pine]

my take on it

people keep asking why subtlety players are not happy with changes

thats the simple answer

[final cedar]

Is the rogue balance developer ever active on forums or other community sites to communicate? Or have you personally ever had a conversation with them or anything like that?

[vale pine]

the devs read the forum and sometimes discord

but i am sure they see wcl statistics

or other data

we had conversation also in discord

but there was not much since more than a year

[dry plank]

wcl statistics does not help them to create proper design of a spec they do not want to spent time on, they could just give 35% to BP kek

[vale pine]

so the team has a more internal idea of classes and what needs change

e.g. if you followed discussions around the topic

other spec players

also think subtlety is "not too bad"

so it doesen't need immidiate attention

while i would argue

having the spec as the least played in raid

and mythic plus

is a good indication that a change or at least deeper discussion

is a relevant thing

wow is a big game

so every player will have a diffrent perspective

and so will the dev team

[final cedar]

Oh, I totally agree. WCL stats only show a damage graph. There are so many variables, and in reality, it just reflects strength and weakness. If the devs just look at it and go, 'Oh, the graph is low? Let's buff by 10%', then they're really clueless about the game, lol

[dry plank]

it is a basic development process, and since we have one nicely workable spec, they could avoid fix (redesign) other specs for long long time, you have workaround, just play assa if you do not like design of sub or bugs or whatever, if you dont like assa play other class etc

if you dont want its your problem, there are only few people like you who like to play sub, devs need to satisfy BM hunters and ret paladins or who is the most played spec idk

[vale pine]

it is a part of their dataset

e.g. in 10.2

subtlety stood out on smolderon

[wild vine]

Interesting take, iirc they didnt do much at all with hunter, designwise

[vale pine]

and was generally good tuned

so in order to fix that

it was nerfed

and after the nerfs, it ended up in line with other graphs in length

so, was the nerf needed?

hard to say, if the only content type you do

was mythic raiding

and only in the scope of this one tier

with how bosses worked

yes

subtlety was outstanding

if you started to add more data

normal/heroic raid

mythic+

consider popualrity of the spec

it wasn't all that much played

besides being in a very small fraction of raiding very good

[alpine wraith]

so basically get more crits

[candid mural]

well...with the upcoming changes it is very likely that out of 13 nodes in the capstone area 5 will never be taken. it is 100% predictable and also 100% unacceptable for anyone who seriously calls themselves a game developer...

[alpine wraith]

well they are a team!

[candid mural]

also i didn't look through all the speccs, but is there any specc tree that has that many utility nodes before the first gate?

[vale pine]

its only 3

all other nodes have a chance to be taken

[candid mural]

so we're playing that new sod node?

i don#t think so

[vale pine]

possible

we need to look more into it

just got it implemented today

but symbols is very overloaded

and rotten and the new supercahrger

both give it more power

basically

lives of dies

based on how much other tlaents can correct the weaknesses of it

*talents

as you might read between the lines

it means you need to have certain talents too

so there are dependencies

you can't just skip supercharger

and inev

or rotten

or pe

[candid mural]

or swift death?

[vale pine]

well i don't think we play that

but my point is

how strong the new node is

depends on how much benefit we can create

for the additional benefits

of better alignment

and these 2 more uses of symbols

[candid mural]

is there any chance you take just 1 extra charge? i don't really see the point of 2, but with 1 you at least don't feel bad if you have to hold symbols until other cds are ready

nah nvm pathing is completely fucked up

[vale pine]

yes

there is a chance we take one

[candid mural]

you basically would've to sacrifice a capstone or inev AND deeper daggers to get 1 extra charge

[vale pine]

there is also a change we take both

simply to get rotten

because rotten increases symbols value

oh i forgot to include

shadowcraft

shadowcratf is also empowering symbols

[candid mural]

IF we take extra sod charges we just burn through them during flag and then regenerate them in the 1,5 minutes in between flags i guess...the burst would've to be insane to be worth going afk for a minute everytime xD

[vale pine]

well maybe its not that easy

because we have less cdr

constraints for gameplay change

and it is why we argue for it to be not better

e.g. secret techniques cdr is now high

so fitting 2x secret in cooldowns is tough

shadow blades gets lower in duration, makes it even tighter

and then there is shadow dance cooldown reduction

[lilac stag]

@vale pine did they actually implement some of the changes on ptr?

[vale pine]

yes

[candid mural]

2x sec tech should be possible if you don't chain shadow dance back to back, but have a little break in between

[vale pine]

things work mostly

[vale pine]

exactly+

now its the time

to try to see how you can fit things together

but every piece has a very tight fit

[lilac stag]

imagine if lingering worked correctly with everything. 16 seconds wouldn’t be awful

[vale pine]

so gameplay might be not fun

part of the dynamic of subtlety is

in fact using extra dance charges

but ever since df and more dominantly 10.2

[candid mural]

and we would again have to seperate flag and shadowblades

[vale pine]

you have low cdr on dance

so you can't handle extra charges

if you don't have em

and this is the diffrence

tight fits mean

you can't get alwys good alignment

so instead of getting something extra

you try to find the best way to make things not worse

find the best of the bad alignments

[wraith sphinx]

Subgods quickfire question; which hero spec does a better job of killing the stupid slug boss bugsnax or w/e it's name is

[vale pine]

a big diffrence in faming

ovinax?

trickster feels better to play

[wraith sphinx]

Yeah fuck that guy

Okay ty

[vale pine]

but deathstalker works fine too

[candid mural]

should be pretty balanced now with bp buff

[vale pine]

yes

11.0.5

we will likely change to one of the two

and the other one is not great

[wraith sphinx]

Fair, I've been maining trickster but wasn't sure if the BP buff made death stalker better for ovi

[vale pine]

it is in theory

in practice

i found target switching

and multi dotting

to reduce efficiency

enough to play trickster

[candid mural]

we probably need 1-2 weeks to get used to deathstalker in multi-target encounters

[vale pine]

well yes

add a week more

to learn the new rotation for 11.0.5

[candid mural]

and then we will be fucked again by the patch changes

[vale pine]

its not fucked

we don't lose damage

[candid mural]

nah just saying we have to adjust again

[vale pine]

it seems like we stay at least with one hero talent

similar to where we are now

[candid mural]

like we do every other patch since dragonflight...?

[vale pine]

subtlety has the tendency

to get worse at things

with updates

[lilac stag]

This is quite comical since the last set of tuning was meant to do just to opposite for almost every other class.

[vale pine]

does not mean it has good parts

[vale pine]

i think its simply a problem of information

er change was not on ptr

so people didn't test

now with it on ptr

we today got a early implementation

so now we need to adjust the apl

and see if we find good gameplay variants

to make it work

[lilac stag]

When has any “major” patch change for sub been available to test with more than a week in the last 3 expansions?

They suck at thier deployment.

[vale pine]

its not a major patch

[glacial basin]

whats the new rotation will like in 11.0.5 like the changes and is the changes are good or not?

[vale pine]

thats the point

its low hanging fruits

[lilac stag]

.5 is a major update

[vale pine]

to add quality of life improvements

[lilac stag]

it’s not a hotfix

[alpine wraith]

can anyone check if supercharger still works on prepull?

[lilac stag]

it’s major reworked to many classes

[alpine wraith]

wont log in until tomorrow

[vale pine]

should

[vale pine]

removing something

is not a rework

[lilac stag]

20th anniversary is a content patch

lol

[candid mural]

imagine them actually hotfixing some bugs. that would be a quality of life change nobody could complain about

[alpine wraith]

he means for other classes/specs

[lilac stag]

This isn’t a qol thing

[alpine wraith]

they are getting sweeping changes

[vale pine]

for rogue it is

like

[alpine wraith]

tbh if onyl they fixed more bugs that impact us negativaly

[vale pine]

assassiantion overall has the better changes in the patch

[alpine wraith]

oh and dont fix the positive ones kekl

[vale pine]

but subtlety has some with big impact

[alpine wraith]

not having to use snd helps a bit on keyus

but not much

[lilac stag]

fuu just focusing on rogue vs what the patch actually is and not seeing the connection of blizzard failing at deployment of any rogue changes in a timely manner

[alpine wraith]

supercharger is quite good

[vale pine]

i mean

[lilac stag]

that’s a failure by the dev team

[vale pine]

it is what the patch is

[alpine wraith]

and as expected from my empyrical testing we might skip finality and db once again

[vale pine]

i don't care about

"what it could be"

[vale pine]

possible yes

[candid mural]

oh god pls no

[alpine wraith]

it just did more dam

unless we find something better

[lilac stag]

The patch is a major patch. For rogue it got ignored again. It doesn’t mean it’s not a .5 and major content patch

[alpine wraith]

this is of course without taking into account the prepull and bug shenanigans you can do too

[vale pine]

i don't know

i think sin chanegs are great

i think outlaw got minor qol

its not a bad change

[alpine wraith]

they can stack envenoms now

[lilac stag]

…

[alpine wraith]

pog

i want to stack evises

make flawless form stack on using finishers

so tornado is useful

[vale pine]

we talk about diffrent things scath

it seems like your complaint is

"what could have been"

nothing we can change

[whole lichen]

!fuu

[lilac stag]

my complaint is this is a major content patch. They did not deploy anything critical for rogue specifically sub until a week before

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

You chose to say it’s not a major content patch. Which is flat out wrong.

[candid mural]

if they miss enough of what COULD have been at some point it becomes what SHOULD have been

[vale pine]

i don't like that kind of thinking

because things can always be better

so there is no goal you can be happy about

e.g.

assassiantion is not happy

that now all 3 specs

have blade flurry

is that a big issue

i am not the one who decides

or sin/outlaw complain how they can't restealth every pack in m+

again

big issue?

[lilac stag]

who is complaint about having caustic splatter on assa?

[vale pine]

or like

11.0.5

subterfuge is terirble on sin/sub

it was changed to be good on sin

so the priority to fix it for sin was higher

and you can argue why

maybe its easier to design for sin

maybe its something else

but the entire complaining is based on

comparing specs and having no agreement on problems

[lilac stag]

my argument is realz is an old hardcore pvp player and sees subt as spec for pvp and pve as an afterthought. Assa is the pve focus with pvp as the afterthought.

[vale pine]

yet assassiantion eats subs cake

in pvp

[lilac stag]

you sure about that?

[vale pine]

11.0.5

i am not sure if sub stays that popular

dust removal is quite a diffrence in power level and dynamic

maybe supercharger is good enough

to make sub the prefered play

i am not a pvp player, i don't know

maybe we should ask somone who does pvp

[lilac stag]

TFD is a pvp talent. Why is it in the spec tree?

[leaden prairie]

Fuu

Do you really think this is a real patch lol

It's so obvious that these are changes they wanted to implement for tww

But they didn't have the time