subtlety

[vale pine]

perception and player retention

[uneven scarab]

I would actually like to see gloom baseline

Backstab is full wet noodle status

[void hound]

gloom is lame, it literally shouldnt exist imo

[vale pine]

if we look at the game

the majority of players

are actually not new

in fact what it looks like

is that wow has a very bad growth

[alpine wraith]

lots of wrath babies

kek

[uneven scarab]

10 year squad here

[vale pine]

the last one is wrath + bc + classic

its one bar

[void hound]

yes cause blizzard is appealing to 15 year old veterans
catering to them is precisely what holds wow back

[alpine wraith]

tbc did not grow much

but wrath did

[vale pine]

so what happens is

people play for a long time

and they build a perception of how things are

it is why people still think of sub

as a pvp spec

[void hound]

i remember getting crucified here for suggesting that the level experience is bad
people gave me arguments like "yeah but if you do x timewalking and y chromie timeline its okay"
like bro a new player doesnt know what any of that means lol

[vale pine]

because thats how it was designed for long

[uneven scarab]

Blame the classic andies

[wispy pebble]

tbh people that start a game now dont want a game with tab target combat and comic graphis

If action combat mmos werent ran into the ground by their creators WoW would have a way harder time

[vale pine]

its like this.
The argument of "you spend only a fraction of time" is valid

but it dismisses that leveling is part of the player onboarding

your first experience

[brittle rain]

Rogue leveling is so bad, that I’ve asked myself if I’m doing something very wrong and I play for years and also had already max level rogue

[void hound]

nah wow could appeal to new players
even with tab targeting

[brittle rain]

It’s that kind of awful

[vale pine]

so for me it seems logical

that the consequence of it is

that people see how specs get developed

who gets attention

what plays best

etc.

and over time people mostly go to the classes that seem better

e.g BfA was a weird xpac

where if you loved to raid

rogue suddenly was completely optional/irrelevant

and if you played rogue

you ended up present with

[wispy pebble]

its visuals will always lose though. If the game looks cool it will attract more people. There is a reason BDO still has a playerbase despite being handled absolutely terrible. Throne and Liberty does nothing except looking cool either. If those games had decent endgame and no P2W bullshit they would easily steal new players from WoW

[vale pine]

only one spec you play in raid

one spec you played in m+

and a spec you can't play from public perception

because it got no attentioon and was poorly tuned

[void hound]

its not valid at all cause it assumes a new player has all of that information
which is exactly the problem this game has
the average wow player doesnt see a problem with any of this cause he played for 15 years and he made it work somehow
its survivorship bias

[vale pine]

yes

but your assumption is

[void hound]

yeah visuals are a big part of it for sure

[vale pine]

that wow aims to incrrease the amount of new players

while if you look at the graph

they have a big player pool

they can lure back to the game

that also gets older, so has more spare money

[wispy pebble]

Leveling in WoW is ass. The story is not told to the player at all, the old zones are insanely outdated, you wont meet anyone because the old players level in dungeons etc etc

[vale pine]

a returning player does not need to start at 0

you get a free char boost

[void hound]

oh no absolutely not
wow is optimized for profits, which doesnt have to come from new players
in fact, new players are a bad business strategy compared to, as you pointed out, older players with more income

however as a product, it becomes worse without a doubt

[vale pine]

and then can start with the newest xpac

[vale pine]

thats also in systems

crafting is confusing

even for people who play actively

i don't mean us

we spend time learning it

but even in our guilds

we might have people that need the system to be explained

or

e.g. you saw it in here

people craft intelect weapons

on accident

[uneven scarab]

[wispy pebble]

kekw

[vale pine]

the game isn't helping you with things like this

[uneven scarab]

Saw that happen too many times in here

Yeah it doesnt make these things obvious

[vale pine]

and wow has many systems with dark patterns

[uneven scarab]

you have to go to a third party

[warm depot]

thats also a result of old games like this too, far too many systems and its very hard to introduce a new player to everything

[vale pine]

making things more obscure to understand

[void hound]

wow is another product of modern times "enshittification" you see everywhere in the software sector

make great product
get people hooked
gain monopoly status
appeal to investor
product is now mediocre

[warm depot]

the burden of knowledge to be a "good" player is extremely high

[wispy pebble]

id argue the game basically doesnt help you with anything.
Had a dude who ran his first m+ pull primal rage on cd

[void hound]

yup

[uneven scarab]

Alot of people dont realize the INSANE knowledge gap from the low end to the top end of players in this game as well

There is a HUGE disparity

[wispy pebble]

Literally same problem league has. Old playerbase is toxic, Game doesnt help you at all, loads of old bullshit that shoulnt be there anymore (yes im looking at you racials)
FFXIV is infinitely nicer as a new player because people will help you where the game doesnt. In WoW you get told to read a guide and league players will tell you to end it

[warm depot]

its also entirely anecdotal, but from my time working in games, many devs/product are hesitant to improve the ftue or decrease the amount of learning to get into the game because the tradeoff is hard to measure

its practically any live service game >5y

just tons of layers of knowledge and systyems

on top of new knoledge and systems

[wispy pebble]

the damage is also basically done. WoW and League will never fix their reputation

[latent wren]

i like racials tho ://

there are problematic ones for sure

[uneven scarab]

racials are fine as long as one is not clearly better

Which uh

has been the case many times

[warm depot]

they literally only need to be 1% to x stat and some kind of crafting/gathering and 1 flavour racial

when you have full on utility or steroid thats when it becomes a disparity

[latent wren]

u can pry my vulpera tent and vials out of my cold dead hands 😂

[keen dome]

Make them a talent tree! 1 active choice, 1 passive. Pick from any combo in the game. Quests to ulock them all on your warband

Blammo I've fixed everything.

[wispy pebble]

every race should deal the exact same damage

[latent wren]

i think dps isnt even the issue atm

[keen dome]

DPS is whatever

[latent wren]

dwarf/did are the outliers

[keen dome]

It's always utility like gnomeform or stoneform etc

[wispy pebble]

yea the abilies are even worse

[keen dome]

Which is wy my solution solves it: everybody can get those buttons so nothing loses out. Be the cosmetic choice you want.

[wispy pebble]

imagine dracthyr wouldve kept their racials lmao

[keen dome]

You can keep the other speciifc racials (I.e., home two hearths or w/e) tied to race but the super impactful buttons (Stoneform, will, etc) become free

[latent wren]

that had to change

the glide is still kinda busted tho even if its not super fast

[uneven scarab]

Can cheese throngus with it

Doesnt drop the lava pool

[wispy pebble]

well somehow they have to get their new race to be played i guess, Because if its not stronger people wont opt for the non transmog class.

[latent wren]

??

why do they need people to play dracthyr lol?

[wispy pebble]

numbers

[latent wren]

??????

[winter stratus]

Is Deathstalker still bugged to where it's troll to take it?

[wispy pebble]

Do you have an idea how bad it looks that the new class is barely played at all? If Aug wasnt added evoker/dracthyr wouldve been an absolute failure

[latent wren]

its still bugged

you still play it in some situations but im behind on whats going on on m+ so idk whats played there

[uneven scarab]

You can play it in m+ but it plays like shit

Compared to trickster

does sim better though

So up to you

[latent wren]

i dont think the amount of people playing a class is representative of whether or not its a failure. i think aug is the categorical failure but

[keen dome]

looks at rogue

[wispy pebble]

Investors will be pissed if you spent loads of time on the new class/race just for it to fail

[keen dome]

Investors won't have a clue

[latent wren]

its funny u think the investors are smart enough to know

[uneven scarab]

Blizz doesnt even play this game

[keen dome]

Investors, in video games, typically don't have a clue about the video game other than is it printing as much money as other video games

[wispy pebble]

let it be the higher ups then idc, your new class failing is terrible

[keen dome]

Espescially as they are now owned by Microsoft so a Blizzard investor is someone invested in Microsoft haha

Really good mental image though

[latent wren]

your measurement of whether or not a class is failing is rather lacking, tbh.

[keen dome]

Someone banging their fist on their desk, in a Microsoft earnings call: "How many people are playing Evoker?!"

[wispy pebble]

Pretty sure your playerbase not playing the class is the class failing

[uneven scarab]

I dont even think evoker failed, it was mainly just aug that was received badly

[keen dome]

You need to remember that Evoker was limited to 1 per account? server for most of DF

[uneven scarab]

becuase of how op it can potentially be

[keen dome]

This has a pretty impactful uptick on it's popularity.

[wispy pebble]

its the same for DH no?

[uneven scarab]

Pres is literally the best healer atm

[keen dome]

Also monk sat as lowest played forever. I think DH was the only 'really big' new class addition

[latent wren]

still dumb asf they didnt lift this restriction for mop remix lol

[keen dome]

ye

[latent wren]

restriction for dh was lifted in sl if i remember right

[keen dome]

I think so, yeah.

But DH was just really fucking popular from the get-go

[wispy pebble]

Still DH was highly popular before that even

[latent wren]

and dk also had a similar restriction

[barren plume]

anyone good with figuring out why frame rates are dropping?

[keen dome]

Monk didn't manage that. Evoker didn't either. DK did too. Like, it's just how it goes. The class isn't a failure but it does have lower play.

[wispy pebble]

lower details tick rate and remove all weakauras with models

[barren plume]

weak aura models are removed did that already

how do i lower details tick rate? and also im sitting in the middle of dorn and have 45 fps

nothing going on

[wispy pebble]

i mean main city is always catasrophy fps wise

[uneven scarab]

Well dorn kinda be like that

yea

[barren plume]

i have a brand new pc thats got more power than this game wil need for 10 more years

[uneven scarab]

Most of us do

Main city will always be bad

[latent wren]

i wouldnt use sitting in the main city as ur measure for ur fps

[wispy pebble]

especially since loads of peole will raid sunday at 18/19

[latent wren]

i promise when u walk out of dorn u will gain like 30 fps minimum

[barren plume]

18/19 frames or are you using military time like a wierdo

[wispy pebble]

mb, guess you cant count above 12

[latent wren]

god forbid someone be not american

[barren plume]

lol im in the military

[alpine wraith]

ok just needed a friend hunter for emotional support for it to drop

[barren plume]

i use military time thats why i made the comment

[uneven scarab]

Gz hacha

[hazy breach]

💀 American spotted 💀

[uneven scarab]

time to pump to the moon

[wispy pebble]

did the hunter bring his support dog?

[alpine wraith]

he brang paco hernesto

[barren plume]

lol god damn right im American 'merica bitches

[uneven scarab]

Tarkov taught me military time

[keen dome]

I just use a 24 hour clock

[hazy breach]

Ye americans just call a regular 24 hour clock military time

[keen dome]

huh, the more you know.

[uneven scarab]

Uhmm aktually the 12 hour clock is the regular one

[hushed ferry]

yeah as our 'regular' clock is not in fact a 24 hour one. So... yes.

[latent wren]

kinda wish my workplace had used 24hr clock cuz then we wouldnt need to worry about writing am or pm on the paperwork

[keen dome]

Even when we had a regular 12-hour clock in the UK I've always just used 24-hour.. Funny.

[latent wren]

that caused issues and a lot of crossouts and rewrites

problems for quality control

[keen dome]

haha

[alpine wraith]

most people have 12 hour clocks tho

havent seen many 24 ones

i do use some in fabs

they seems weird

they are big and square

[hazy breach]

Well the ones on the walls are 12, but you'd always write 19 and not 7 pm

Digital clocks saying 7pm is psychotic

[latent wren]

digital clocks ezclap

[winter stratus]

Hey. So I have a macro for Cold Blood and Secret Technique but it only works about 30% of the time. Is there a known issue with that or something?

[latent wren]

problem solved

[uneven scarab]

Not on ur stealth bar

[hazy breach]

Make sure its on the stealth bar

[keen dome]

Also computer clocks

[latent wren]

my macro has no issues? wdym not work?

[keen dome]

Which we all have in front of us right now. Maybe.

I dunno some of you could be phone posting

[winter stratus]

That would explain why it don't work. Thank you all. ❤️

[latent wren]

i am laying in bed rn

[uneven scarab]

Big phone posting energy

[latent wren]

its kinda rainy and the cat is cuddling me

[keen dome]

I guess phones are just computers these days that can sometimes make telephone calls so it's a computer too.

Also hell yeah cat pette that cat

[latent wren]

she just sighed heavily at me

[uneven scarab]

Hey man she had a long day

[latent wren]

shrimping action

[uneven scarab]

long day of resting

Omg siamese?

[keen dome]

love a good siam catte

(all cats are good)

[uneven scarab]

[latent wren]

yesss

[uneven scarab]

This is one of my sweet boys

[latent wren]

cutee

[keen dome]

😻

[latent wren]

the other kitty (she wouldnt look at me lol)

[hazy breach]

Tfw allergic

[uneven scarab]

Me too, but its so worth it

i will suffer for them

[hazy breach]

We had cats while i was growing up

Then i moved out an realized thats why i was constantly sneezing and had a runny nose

Thought i just always had a cold since it wasnt really serious

[vale pine]

i think there are many things

like visual clarity

[uneven scarab]

Yep i get the same

[vale pine]

and e.g. how punishing doing keys now is

[latent wren]

so glad i chose this season to play casually ngl

dungeon pool is awful

[hazy breach]

Idk i dont really mind it

[uneven scarab]

I like them i just think tuning

Is the bigger issue

[keen dome]

It doesn't help that they're doing an 'okay' job of consolidating visual language in modern content. While also bringing old dungeons back that just do whatever the fuck they feel like, haha.

[vale pine]

i think dungeons are fine

as people get gear

[keen dome]

A buddy of mine began playing recently. He got pretty confused over the DK Death and Decay. It's bright red. So he thought: oh no! Danger! I won't stand in that.

[vale pine]

its also clarity in what works and whats not

e.g. cloak

[hazy breach]

City and mist aint that fun, but the others are fine imo

[vale pine]

cloak could be a very obviouse spell

[keen dome]

Yeah, absolutely, Fuu. It's very obfuscated if an ablity will work or not

[vale pine]

this looks like magic

[keen trellis]

Hello, I have a question regarding tornado in ST. On WoWHead it says "use tornado outside cds", so not even during symbols or before dance+symbols? Or I can just hold it for adds in general?

[vale pine]

so cloak should block its damage

right?

well for old dungeons, you are in for some surprises

[uneven scarab]

Shoulda brought plaguefall/theater of pain back instead of necro wake

Those two were goated

[hazy breach]

Yes actively outside your cds

[keen dome]

When I'm doing lower keys I'll just try to cloak and evade anything to see what happens.

[tardy badge]

LITERALLY iv tried to cloak shit and it jus dont be cloaking sometimes 😦

[hazy breach]

You absolutely do not want it during blades on ST

[alpine wraith]

yea tornado right now is a cdr hog

[hazy breach]

Because then you'd waste your shadow technique stacks

[latent wren]

okay but i did like 3 leveling dungeons w my partner on prot warrior and i kept moving out of the new spear of bastion animation because i hadnt seen thw dungeons or the new spear animation and assumed it was bad until i saw it in the second dungeon and had to ask 😂

[keen dome]

Hahaha, right?

[hazy breach]

But ye holding for adds is always the play, you'd only use it on ST if its more than a minute left until more adds spawn

[keen trellis]

Thought so, thanks a lot!

[alpine wraith]

on st you could use it before a dn evis to try and bait momentum after you pop it

but man it is so useless

[latent wren]

nado feels so weird to use idk. i also only used it in one key

[alpine wraith]

of course out of cds and sod

[latent wren]

before i gave up on ds in m+. (prior to the bp buff)

[hazy breach]

Ye nado is really weird

I'd expect it to get removed whenever they do some sort of rework to sub

Or heavily reworked to become a passive in some fashion

[uneven scarab]

make it convoke 2.0!!!!

shitting out finishers time

[keen dome]

Summon a shadow clone(s) who will replicate your abilities for the next 10s

[vale pine]

a easy solution would be

[uneven scarab]

[vale pine]

just replace it with this bad boy

[latent wren]

god i hate convoke and i always have

[uneven scarab]

convoke is so cool dude

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=147012/umbral-moonglaives

[keen dome]

Oh yeah, that'd be cool

Shadow tornado

[uneven scarab]

i HATE druid but convoke has nearly convinced me to play it

[vale pine]

make it shadow not aracne damage

[uneven scarab]

Oh thats cool

[keen dome]

I like it when I kick convoke in pvp

it's funny

[vale pine]

glaives go brrrr

btw.

i think it would be op for pvp

but kick shouldn't be usable if the target isn't casting

[uneven scarab]

Perfect cd on glaives as well

[keen dome]

That'd be interesting and honestly, yeah.

[vale pine]

so you can't interrupt something if there is no cast

in m+

at least with current design

one wrong kick

can easy kill a pull

because you miss it for the next cast

[hazy breach]

It doesnt have to be entirely different, they could just make it so your first BP during dance casts storm or refunds 7 cp

Or your next storm hits 4 times

Idk lots of things, current implementation is just awkward

[vale pine]

could also just

[alpine wraith]

best i can do is give sec tech 2 more charges

oh wiat

[vale pine]

Black powder does double damage during dance

[alpine wraith]

that would be good

nvm

[latent wren]

i played feral in sl and convoke made me quit. what you did outside of the convoke setup mattered very little and a button you pressed once a minute that channeled for 6 seconds was worth at minimum 25% of your overall damage throughout an encounter. now a large portion of dmg coming from a cd isnt a problem for me personally but when its not even you like, playing the game, for that cd, i dont like it

BUT convoke isnt like that anymore for feral

a lot of ferals really liked convoke bc big bites big dopamine but i fucking hated it lol

[fallow bone]

so is trickster sandbag in M+ now?

[latent wren]

no?

[fallow bone]

the pins would indicate that it is unless im missing something

[rugged moon]

Ds sims slightly higher but it's disgusting to play

[hazy breach]

its not slightly higher

Its significantly higher

[alpine wraith]

yea you can try it and get used to it

in the next patch it will be better anyway

[rugged moon]

It also feels so bad swapping between that and trickster

[hazy breach]

3-15% depending on target count, at exactly 2 targets trickster is better but then 3 target its like 3-4% behind

And it just ramps up to be more more behind the more targets you add

[rugged moon]

Also less prio damage and just spamming BP

Feels so bad

[hazy breach]

Its more prio damage

Deahtstalker does significantly more prio than trickster

[fallow bone]

how so when youre prioritizing bp instead of evis?

[rugged moon]

Not if you're spamming BP???

[fallow bone]

(im not doubting you im just curious)

[hazy breach]

because trickster just does its full ST

Whereas deathstalker gains a lot of damage compared to full ST

More marks, darkest night and singular focus

[hazy breach]

Yes with full aoe rotation, which includes eviscerate with darkest night

[fallow bone]

so the difference between the two is such that youd recommend learning to play deathstalker in keys

[rugged moon]

If you want to hate your life

Play deathstalker in keys

[hazy breach]

Ye theres no reason to play trickster on anthing besides court imo

[fallow bone]

i did like trickster but isnt deathstalker basically the same shit weve been playing for years?

[alpine wraith]

yea trickster just needs a bit of a mentality change

vs deathstalker

so just reboot brain

[fallow nimbus]

you know what will suck? our cds won't reset anymore

[keen dome]

oh no

[drowsy stone]

How to improve as sub rogue besides looking at logs? Cant do more than 680-700k St dps in single target in raids 601 ilvl, stacking mastery, following guide from wowhead. It feels like I need to work twice as hard compared to dh or lock, esp in aoe

[hexed bluff]

Same, Evoker is my alt and shit is wildly easier on other classes besides my Sub main.

[drowsy stone]

And the spec no longer has cdr talents in 11.0.5

[sly shore]

most based aoe trinket they ever made ngl

such a fucking banger

timing the pop for maximum pad in raid

was glorious

[lilac stag]

I’m still confused as how this misunderstood so often.

[lilac stag]

Swapping trinkets out in dungeons.

[sly shore]

please don't bring that back holy fuck

having like 6 gear sets

all different legendaries

for maximum pad

[keen dome]

[brave escarp]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale lagoon]

can someone who is more well-versed with wow history remember a time when it was complete radio silence from blizzard and then they just drop a bunch of bugfixes on us out of the blue

basically is there any hope of trickster next patch lol

[uneven scarab]

we sit and cope

And pray

Im right there with ya

[vale pine]

was rly bad

[barren plume]

amp poison or instant?

[vale pine]

you don't have amp poisons on sub

only instant

if you mean on sin

amp + deadly

[warm depot]

they need to make a kick refund

if you accidentally overlap

or 50% cd

[vale lagoon]

nah remove all interrupts, make this entire game about how much u can dodge and dps at the same time

[alpine wraith]

imagine if all the casts from mobs were skillshots

touhou m+

[light imp]

or bring back wildstar mechanic of interrupt armor where you needed X Number of kicks to stop a cast, not just one

lol

[half comet]

idk if im cooked but

[charred sandal]

i just realized coup the grace animation.... it doesnt play unless u dash with it lul

[half comet]

that actually sounds interesting

[half comet]

^

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/touhou-touhou-project-danmaku-bullet-hell-subterranean-animism-gif-23307612

[wispy pebble]

looking at how blizzard handles skilshot indicators color wise.. rather not

[vale pine]

yellow on yellow

yes please

also make heal spells a yellow indicator on the floow

[wispy pebble]

Dark purple on blue. Pog

Bring Wild Spirits back

[vale pine]

mild spirits

[vale lagoon]

thought you said "milf spirits" for a second idk why

[alpine wraith]

they have it now it is called sentinel bird poop

and tanks keep moving mobs from it

the cycle never ends

[warm depot]

interrupt bars ala gw2

would unironically be good i think

so you just just kick or cc to break it

[golden totem]

is there any guild that is progging ansurek

with a rogue not being gnome

[vale pine]

yes, many

especially in heroic

[pliant topaz]

kekw

[golden totem]

first night on queen rn if i delay opener by one finisher before flaging

i can vanish first root

and cloak 2nd

and vanish 3rd

[pliant topaz]

dont think cloak would be up for 4th then though

even with the 30 sec cdr

[golden totem]

you dont cloak 4th

anyway

[pliant topaz]

oh dope

[golden totem]

tahts prob wwhy

you go gnome

you need cloak for intermission big damage

at the start

[vale pine]

think most went gnome

[golden totem]

at least thats what echo/liquid did

[vale pine]

for the non meme answer

[golden totem]

yeah im checking one by one they all are gnome

[charred sandal]

sooooo on DS im using nado for rupture?

[vale pine]

you use it outside of cd's but yes, can use it to spread rupturee

[charred sandal]

do i need to dot tha entire pack

[vale pine]

if suff survives yes

else nope

[charred sandal]

suff....?

[brave escarp]

fast question - when do i use my CDs on sirkan on mythic? i cant fit 2 dances on pull, because charges coem and the boss goes out of range

do i delay them?

[golden totem]

you cry in bed

and take the L

[brave escarp]

NO!

[golden totem]

else go assa and dont care about melee uptime

[brave escarp]

my gear is not optimised for asasi 😦

[alpine wraith]

you do 1 dance then vanish do finishers untilDN is up then wait for charge to end

then step dance SoD evis

[brave escarp]

doesnt work, because of decimate

either otehrs will hit me or i have to break the shadows

[half comet]

you never click nado in cooldowns?

[vale pine]

no

outside of cooldowns

basically

the problem is, shadowcraft and blades

give you soo many combo points

[alpine wraith]

it works because i do it every week

[vale pine]

using tornado loses too much

[alpine wraith]

so idk

[vale pine]

what does not work?

or does

[alpine wraith]

opener on sikran

[vale pine]

ah interessting

[vale lagoon]

probably dumb question

but do we know what loots we'll get from the new anniversary patch raid?

like is there anything like ritual knife lol

something that can outsim 639 mythic trinkets

[alpine wraith]

not likely

[vale pine]

probably not

[alpine wraith]

as for loot i didnt check raid or dung

[golden totem]

LOL checking every guilds ahead of us, every rogue is a gnome sub except @lucid jackal playing sin

the number 1 sub hater

[alpine wraith]

guy does not hate sub that much

[vale pine]

fair

don't worry

sin is now quite good

the buffs helped it

[golden totem]

yeah its probably very good

impyr is also playing sin rn

not surprising since hes a sin main

but gnomes everywhere

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/waving-underpants-gnomes-south-park-s6e17-red-sleigh-down-gif-22105105

[brave escarp]

i take my words back. it works

thanks!

[lucid jackal]

I think sin low key insane on the fight

Ur obviously less useful at web breaks, and on her shield, but you get an execute lust

[golden totem]

havent watched in depth why sub is good, but yeah sin seems very good too, esp with the buffs

[lucid jackal]

Sub is good cuz 130s are just a bit better

U can cd shield, and also the shield add

In intermission

Mechanics are a 45 sec caedance on the fight

[golden totem]

do you actually cd shield

[lucid jackal]

Well as sub, you can

[golden totem]

but the ydont

[lucid jackal]

Cuz ull have it up for the next important burn

Do you (me) idk yet

We haven't gotten clean intermissions yet really

[golden totem]

how do you deal with roots as sin

[lucid jackal]

Ive said to my rl that I'm open to playing sub to make shit easier in the moment. Or long term. I'm just playing sin for now cuz it's more fun

[lucid jackal]

Play a no vanish build

[golden totem]

yea for sure

but 1 vanish charge is enough?

[lucid jackal]

Yeh

[golden totem]

i guess it is with gnome

[lucid jackal]

Cloak gnome vanish gnome

Then cloak the intermission pop damage

[golden totem]

yeah ive seen this

but they dont burst on shield, idk if its cause its a pain to leave meleee during burst or specific uses like first platform

[lucid jackal]

Idk what Ur saying

Like are other sub rogues not using Cd's on the pull shields?

[golden totem]

subs are not bursting on queen shield

[alpine wraith]

yea you use cds on first add

[lucid jackal]

Uhhhh

That sounds wrong

Like I'm sure they are doing it

But it sounds incorrect to do

[alpine wraith]

well it kinda frees up to use more spymasters on boss

in p1

[lucid jackal]

Oh duh just get more spymasters

Why didn't I think of that

[alpine wraith]

yea man imagine not having real classes

well trickster sub is decent at 2t and cds come back

you could in theory only use flag and you get more uses at the end of the fight of blades thx to using a vanish

but at the end exile didnt use it to have cleaner intermission

[lucid jackal]

Well then u don't have Cd's for the shield add in intermission

[alpine wraith]

yea you skip cds on that one you dont do much

because you have to yeet with protal

to the other side

and look at the bright stars

[charred sandal]

i cant play DS bro im so shit with it

[vale pine]

just play trickster

[alpine wraith]

ds is annoying yea

the bugs dont help

[golden totem]

im not playing this ds build in key

i did it once

that was one too many

[charred sandal]

yeah i just went back to trickster

i litearlly terrorized a key with the DS

[alpine wraith]

yea i mean someone somewhere will enjoy it

but you will kinda have to get used to it because next week is going to be that

unless they fix nimble

[charred sandal]

well yeah im also too used to dust so thats gonna hit like a truck

[alpine wraith]

only coup cdr change is not enough

although i might try some trickster keys anyway

15 cp coup seems silly

and i also have secret supercharger bug tech

[fringe palm]

where does this come from in df i was called sub otp

i just think its better

[golden totem]

my memories are wrong then

i remember always seing ur name as sin

i might give a try to sin

cause anyway trickster sub being so strict on uptime kinda annoys me for prog

[alpine wraith]

should not be that strict if you skip the dance

you have like 10 secs leeway

[golden totem]

is skipping 3rd dance okay?

[alpine wraith]

you skip 4th

but in mythic i dont remember if boss does webs at 40

or 60

you can skip either 4 or 5

[golden totem]

mythic timers are not the same, its not even about this fight, it just annoys me to triple dance

thats a personal thing

and I also dont like DS sub

and im sad dust is soon gone

[alpine wraith]

i quite like triple dance

[charred sandal]

same brotha

same

[alpine wraith]

you might be able to do it next patch thx to some bugs

unless they fix them

the funniest shit will be skipping dance AND sod

[golden totem]

[alpine wraith]

just sending the noodlest sec tech

in history

[pliant topaz]

nah not even close

deathstalker would be lucky to get double dance

[formal helm]

Nah, no way we have to do this shit

[pliant topaz]

trickster just double dances normally

but you might need to over optimize blades usage since its so short

eseentially the idea is for trickster u need 2 gcds between dances so your whole 2 dance sequence is 18seconds long.

if you use premed first and sectech first -> you can delay blades by 2 seconds

so the remaining 16 (18-2) seconds, can be covered by blades

gonna be fun...

[alpine wraith]

with trickster you can but idk if it is worth

[pliant topaz]

how? its mathematically not possible

[alpine wraith]

you cheat supercharger

[pliant topaz]

you would need to farm 120 cps

[alpine wraith]

it applies if you do it prepull

[pliant topaz]

okay thats 6 combopoints

[alpine wraith]

and to sec tech if you use it as you use it

[formal helm]

Huh?

[pliant topaz]

where do u get the other 114?

[alpine wraith]

but why would we ever do that anyway

transmitter is only 15 secs anyway

and why would we use the 3 charges of SoD on pull

also that build must suck ass on overall dps

[charred sandal]

why coup the grace animation only goes off if u dash with it

[alpine wraith]

it is the same as in bfa with dark shadow and lots of things that increased evis dmg

you could get big finishers but was it worth?

not likely

only when we were cracked out of the ass with mastery it became a thing with NV

[pliant topaz]

no idea, they removed the animation if cast in melee like a month before expac release on beta and never said why

its not a cool animation regardless

kinda tilts me in fact

bro copy pasted Fury warrior rampage and siad done

[alpine wraith]

same with charge ahaha

[charred sandal]

animation is not even that bad i thought it had none

lmao

[hard ember]

is the broken cdr stuff fixed

[pliant topaz]

yea

but there are new bugs so dont worry

the quantity hasnt changed

[alpine wraith]

yea beneficial and bad

and of course the beneficial ones are krangled to use

and annoying

[charred sandal]

a lot of things copy warrior

paladin hammer of light is literally collusus smash

lmao

all talents have reused assets

[alpine wraith]

let me steal touch of the magi

[golden totem]

wait I can vanish 4th root too as sub

vanish 1 3rd and 4th

no gnome dream ?

that means scuffed cds for a while

but if I dont cd until P2

doesnt matter

[alpine wraith]

well if you dont need cds in interphase yes

[pliant topaz]

exile held until p2 yea

[alpine wraith]

he didnt sadly

had to flag+blades first set of adds

[pliant topaz]

ads are p2

[alpine wraith]

ah that is intermission for e

but yea checks out

[golden totem]

anyway no gnome until tuesday night so im gonna have to try some fun stuff

[hazy breach]

Wouldnt be too surprising if they send a nerf to the boss come reset

[golden totem]

yeah that would be a good timing

[hazy breach]

But probably not related to the gnome thing

[golden totem]

I would say nerfs coming next week for ansurek?

not this one

[formal helm]

What's up with gnome thing?

[alpine wraith]

next week unlikely actually

as the 3% dmg and heal drops

maybe they want to see how it pans out

with that one

[pliant topaz]

really? cuz thats when we also get the first 3% idk

[alpine wraith]

maybe with anniversary

[hazy breach]

Possibly next week because of that

But 400+ pulls is still probably a bit higher than they want it

And thats for good guilds

[pliant topaz]

imagine oure one of the 1000+ guilds

its like pls god just get me out

[golden totem]

right now you kinda need to have some spell to free you from roots every roots on mythic P1 ansurek

[alpine wraith]

back to my boi KJ

good times

[spice matrix]

@clever delta did you just get kicked from this raid

[alpine wraith]

riot

[spice matrix]

imposter maybe

[formal helm]

Oh
Ty

[hollow patio]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[old socket]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale lagoon]

dang then prayge i get me a heroic ritual knife one day lmao

8 delves a week since season launch and nothing so fara

[shrewd lantern]

Well you need to get a map

then hope the item from it is the knife

[brave escarp]

might be a good idea to update the pic for the 8s

[vale lagoon]

i think ive gotten like 6 since the season started

and nothing

[alpine wraith]

damn i've gotten 1

[vale lagoon]

it's pretty unfortunate

[alpine wraith]

but im lazy do to the bountifuls everyday

i only do keys i get

[vale lagoon]

well i got an avoidance heroic glove right at the start

turned that into set

and then never got another upgrade from that again

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[shrewd lantern]

replaced my map gear

except my dh has two hero weps from it

[vale lagoon]

hmm where's the other bug list tho

the one that's separated by ds/trickster/baseline sub

[hazy breach]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68FCQnk/pubhtml?gid=579089422&single=true

[hazy breach]

Here

[vale lagoon]

ty ty!

[barren plume]

during queen heroic are we holding blades/flag during the second phase with the adds and shit? just a dance sod

[lethal gale]

Pretty sure top logs send a flag on the platforms

So you flag/blades the shield on p1 then send a solo flag on platforms then flag/blades immediately on p3

[barren plume]

can we cloak the p1 shield web suck thingy?

[lethal gale]

No and cds should line up to send after first pull

[obsidian garnet]

playing deathstalker sub, do you play for double CB in your opener with sectech?

[hard ember]

does not stop you from being sucked

but if you step the boss during the drag you null the mech

like while the drag is happening and your character is being pulled

the passive suck you can't stop*

[tribal blade]

can you actually step the boss itself during the suck? always been too scared to try

i know you can step other players and it works

[short radish]

yeah but i still run anyway

[tribal blade]

yeah 100% run out of melee

[short radish]

i think theres enough input delay/lag or something

that you have to run

[tribal blade]

i play with ~200ms anyways

there's no way i can stay in melee and get around it

[barren plume]

so when the actual pull happens if i step it negates it?

how the fuck do i do the intermission phases for these damn fights im so bad

[short radish]

you run away from the boss and do it normally

[charred sandal]

As trickster u do sectec 1st finisher?

[trail crest]

do we have any information on what feint works in the raid?

[lucid jackal]

Bro this spec is worthless on queen

[tribal blade]

i just found out something hilarious

my guild is upset we're slipping behind in server ranking

when they decided after killing rashanan to take a break until ovinax was nerfed

so we didn't start progging her until the nerfs went out

[short radish]

🐒

[tribal blade]

doesn't impact me in any way because i don't care about rankings

just just funny

[short radish]

tbh as well i dont think your guild is the only one to be like that

[tribal blade]

i didn't mind taking a break

but surely they could have known if you take your foot off the gas you start to fall behind

[wooden kernel]

can yall drop transmitter wa pls

[short radish]

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[short radish]

oh

nvm go search on wago

[lucid jackal]

https://wago.io/xWkCDegWH

[hard ember]

yeh like i think this might be the first tier that you can step the bosses and not like instantly get fucking rolled

like i fully expected say, like, if you stepped rashanan it would put you off the edge, that if you stepped the intermission on ansurek it would kill you instantly by putting you in the center etc

[tribal blade]

the only boss that's happened to me is sikran, whenever the last charge person would drop their image right on the edge

and i fell off 1 time stepping to the boss immediately

[hard ember]

i think maybe you can send vanish full charges and just get a whole nother full set of cds on the intermission and just sac the platforms

like you're not really gonna do much there anyway cuz stuff has such low hp etc

[sinful sluice]

is it normal that I struggle to record logs on raids as sub

my alt survival hunter gets 80~90 just pressing buttons and my main sub is still stuck on 60s

[oak idol]

That makes sense bro

[tribal blade]

it makes sense we didn't start prog until the nerfs happened?

if anything we could have just started to get reps in and fix addons

[oak idol]

Yep makes total sense to me!!!!!

Funny as that they're complaining about falling behind after not raiding

[pliant topaz]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[barren plume]

i mean parse well during the intermission for first boss my dps tanks hard same for p2 on queen dps tanks a ton

p1 im sitting at 1-1.3mil then i get into phase 2 and it just drops. the adds there die so fast i dont get real use out of the CDs

[placid jacinth]

Off topic from the raid. In dungeons am I supposed to use trickster or death stalker?

[willow bobcat]

I found that rerolling entirely was the best option for sub in dungeons

[placid jacinth]

So you just raid with yours?

[willow bobcat]

That was the plan

but enhancement is really fun, so I'm basically just waiting for sub fixes at this point

I'm also bad at the game though

[short radish]

deathstalker assi

[willow bobcat]

so I wouldn't listen to me

[short radish]

if adds die too fast then L i guess

[placid jacinth]

I’m only gear score of like 580 right now

[short radish]

i'm also suffering from the same

[oak idol]

Assassin Rogue

[placid jacinth]

I have always been the player not to play the meta builds either. That’s why I’m sub and not assassin

[oak idol]

Im outlaw too because its more fun

But sin is so broken

Sub is really fun too when you get the hang of it

[oak idol]

Also I think you can play either

[short radish]

there's avoiding meta and then there's directly hampering yourself

[oak idol]

However deathstalker is slightly behind due to bugs

[placid jacinth]

That’s what I thought about with death stalker

[oak idol]

Tbh deathstalker looks easier though just because you dont need to use shadowdust

[short radish]

you do 300% more work to get 70% of its damage and 20% of it's control

math just aint there chief

[oak idol]

Sub would be so much better without the bugs

feel bad for you guys

at least the other specs have manageable bugs

Like outlaw bugs are pretty easy to manage

[placid jacinth]

Outlaw seems pretty fun too. It’s just weird that the builds I find don’t use killing spree anymore

[short radish]

there are killing spree builds

its the highest simming ones iirc

everyone just doesnt like using KS

so they dont

[placid jacinth]

Ahh okay. I heard they nerved outlaw I’m not too sure though

[oak idol]

nope

used to be i believe

its also dog shit to play

[short radish]

yes but the important thing is to have fun

[empty plume]

I honestly can't believe how many people meta slave or suggest meta slaving

like... y'all are sad for a few reasons

1st and foremost being that you probably are not playing the game at the highest level, where meta slaving is worthwhile/mandatory

so you are just having less fun to do more damage for now - the 2nd reason is that retail actually has class balancing changes

anyone who dabbled in the whole classic rerelease chain understands that people play classes with no hope of ever being buffed

like literally no changes, no fixes for shit classes

at least if you play sub in retail they might have their hayday in season 2

like you could pick your favorite, get good at it, and be strong when they're prime (see frost dk right now)

[oak idol]

I like to try meta slave but whenever I go off of outlaw rogue and play sin and come back to outlaw I realise how much more fun outlaw is etc

[empty plume]

things will just get buffed and nerfed moving forward, people who want to multispec can do so - just a sad existence it must be, deliberately going into the subtlety channel on a class discord (instead of spending time playing the game) only to rag on the spec and tell noob question-askers to reroll

[oak idol]

I was joking if youre insinuated im telling him to completely reroll

[empty plume]

You as a joke, the other guy serious, 50 other cases in the past 24hrs

more a rant than an attack on you

[oak idol]

Okay thats fair enough

I can understand where youre coming from

[empty plume]

It's just the running meme, really

I guess if you all bitch enough I might benefit from the buffs

from one perspective

[oak idol]

Haha you know how the rogue discord works

Its great to see sin living out its glory days because it would be the same exact thing in outlaw chat or sub chat if they were popping off

[empty plume]

yeah... Rogue is just a 3x dps spec

so they directly compete with each other

2024 optimization in gaming

only one can survive really

unless they have really distinct niches, separating single target, low-mobcount cleave, and true aoe

each spec kinda does all of those OK

[willow bobcat]

There's a difference between metalsave and what feels fun to play

Sub just feels bad in dungeons compared to other things

[oak idol]

Everyone has their own preference

And I can completely understand loving sub in keys

Even if its not for everyone

Like I had a buddy tell me he hates playing outlaw rogue and loves sin

Its completely understandable

[empty plume]

some people purely want dps and that's how to have more fun - I wouldn't even really call that meta slaving... but they also should play something other than rogue rn

that's just their Love Language

sub can do 1m+ overall in a key which will get it done for most people

[wanton bronze]

i love sub in keys

i delete a pack and all i hear is "oh look boots finally decided to press his cooldowns"

[oak idol]

Pov fury warrior ^

[latent fog]

• a person who has never tried pugging as a feral druid when it's not good

game is significantly more playable historically when you play what's good

balance just closer than it's ever been

since df

[short radish]

there are different levels of meta slaving though. Respeccing is a much easier job than reclassing.
Arguably as well for classes like rogue where you only have the choice of dps/dps and dps - you should be able to play multiple specs at a decent level because something like this happens every patch.

people also want to do damage. big numbers activate pleasure neurons in brain. As it currently stand sub doesn't really do comparable damage to assi.
Sub also doesnt provide nearly the same amount of utility that assi can provide. Silence on an entire pack on every single pull vs absolutely nothing unless you want to RP as a pvper and dance -> cheapshot every mob
Sub rotation is also incredibly jank at the moment in m+ . I personally hate how trickster functions (probably in the minority here). If i wanted to play outlaw (or current assi) i'd play those so I can cleave. Out of cooldowns you're also competing with the tank for damage.

Also also even if youre not pushing 0.1%, people still (hopefully) want to achieve a good outcome. When things are like 10% less than "meta" then yeah sure play whatever you want. But sub right now compared to assi is 300% the effort for 80% of the damage and 20% of the control of assi

thank you for coming to my ted talk

normally i'm on the side of "play whatever you want as well, all content is achievable with all specs"

but at the same time i'd rather tell someone to cut their steak with a knife than a spoon

[empty plume]

ye respect

[short radish]

if someone actually comes with questions specific to sub rotation then yeah sure I'd give a better answer that actually responds to it

but the question was "what hero talents do i play in dungeons"

which is so basic

may as well tell them there's a better option that they might not have considered

last bit but also also also there's nothing wrong with respeccing. i swap between sub and assi constantly. I really enjoy sub in raid and play it whenever I can, but at the same time playing sub in dungeons just feels like digging a hole in the ground with a spoon

is there a numbers tuning that could fix it? probably

it's sorta like - numbers feel bad so things that felt bad in the rotation feels even worse

if sub numbers were dialed up to being top, then you'd have way less complaints and people would be sucking off how good the rotation is

i still don't understand the love for trickster

[wind canopy]

I love specs with so many dead or narrow talents

[short radish]

it's just outlaw/assi2.0

[pliant topaz]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale lagoon]

idk man

not trying to start shit

but I feel like it's a bit disingenuous to say that DS in aoe would feel better if it just had "moar damage"

[short radish]

i come from the minority of enjoying SS -> black powder

so if i can do that

with bigger numbers

my neurons are activated

[vale lagoon]

i enjoyed it too

but the marking mechanic, not so much

esp trying to always consume DN ASAP for maximum dmg

[short radish]

yeah that part is a bit of a pain

[vale lagoon]

is super stressful imo

maybe just skill issue idk

[short radish]

it partially is

but that's also why i hate it

[vale lagoon]

meanwhile trickster is just

faceroll ur single target rotation

and a passive node automatically turns it aoe for u

and the coup/fazed intereaction just makes sense

[short radish]

it makes sense but at the same time

fuck pressing backstab in single target

it is the worst feeling in the world

with 5 mobs up

you are pressing your single target generator

and then waiting for energy

[vale lagoon]

even if it sucks that it makes sectech a buff applier instead of JUST ur biggest hit

wait

i dont think ur backstabbing tho

[short radish]

you are

if you dont have buff

and you are out of dance

[vale lagoon]

OH

i see

[barren plume]

DS should be funnel dmg less energy to cast shuriken and evis is some how amplified on prio target if shuriken hits X amount of targets

[vale lagoon]

then yeah

[short radish]

[vale lagoon]

USUALLY though

[short radish]

it's not common

but it happens enough that i fucking hate it

[vale lagoon]

u throw out one backstab and it's enough to let u go back to ss - evisc

[barren plume]

Not always

[short radish]

^

[vale lagoon]

i think it's acceptable

[barren plume]

There’s a 10 second window where you’d have to cast sec tec to proc it

[short radish]

i don't think it's acceptable

[vale lagoon]

i just rly dislike how so much of the aoe stuff in ds

[short radish]

trickster sub is essentially outlaw rogue/assi

[vale lagoon]

is tied to the single target mark

[short radish]

they have perma uptime on their cleave

why the fuck does sub have to do this jank generator shit

i half get it, but i also think it's stupid

[vale lagoon]

i think historically we've had issues with 2/3 target fights

i just remember 2 boss fights being SOOO bad

for so long

and this sorta fixes it

[short radish]

oh yeah it was terrible

our cleave on 2t fights was rupture

3 target also was pretty shit

because our cleave was 3rd rupture

and whatever sectech did

it does fix it

but like it could still be better

it just loops back to sub doing 200% the effort for 80% of the damage

while also praying for procs

assi is just

press bleeds and then lol do caustic splatter

outlaw is just do single target rotation because you always have blade flurry

sub trickster is do single target rotation but also you gotta hope you get procs

[vale lagoon]

oh man i think outlaw has it worse than us on the rng front lol

[short radish]

i can't comment too much on outlaw since i only played it for a few weeks at the start of the tier

[fair stump]

you mean as a sub rogue or as trickster?

[short radish]

i know it has its issues as well

[vale lagoon]

but yeah ig im just happy enough that im not living the tomb of sargeras 2nd boss experience

[short radish]

porque no los dos

[vale lagoon]

i still remember doing 2 target fight

as dfa sub

sucked so much

[short radish]

actually DS is pretty straight forward but i havent tried it in keys yet

[vale lagoon]

:(((

oh DS feels so horrible in keys

[short radish]

i really enjoy DS in raid tbh

on ST fights

[vale lagoon]

for sure

[short radish]

it feels like it flows well

[vale lagoon]

it's a no brainer

[short radish]

yeah

[vale lagoon]

but like

idk

in aoe ur scrambling to use mark always

[fair stump]

Do we use both charges of SD during opener?

[vale lagoon]

and trying to hit 7 CP outside of blades window feels really bad

so when ur just sending a normal dance + symbols, you get what

2 BP casts in the dance window

and u just wonder if it's really even worth it

[short radish]

lmao yeah

[vale lagoon]

but also also

on a lot of bosses it's kinda meh

when it's heavy movement

idk

the auto attack thingy

[short radish]

true

[vale lagoon]

loses a lot of uptime

[short radish]

sub feels like budget outlaw a bit

punished by downtime

[vale lagoon]

trickster just feels a lot better in general

it's bursty right

[fair stump]

eh...

[vale lagoon]

as opposed to getting like another 5% of their damage from white attacks

[fair stump]

Kinda?

[vale lagoon]

so movement doesn't hurt it quite as much

[fair stump]

Sub in general isn't as bursty as it used to be

Envenoms are dealing more burst than eviscerate can ever do

[vale lagoon]

i pull about 1.3 ~ 1.4 million dps as trickster

and as DS

just 1.1

and it's such a shame bcuz i rly like the idea of having dark brew buffing all my DS magic damage procs

:(((

[hazy breach]

Thats not true

[fair stump]

Is evisc dealing more dmg than envenom atm?

[hazy breach]

On average its about the same, but during burst eviscerate is higher

Eviscerate is just split into multiple hits

So it doesnt look as high

[barren plume]

Which is dumb

[fair stump]

oh, due to the shadow dmg

[hazy breach]

Ye and blades

[fair stump]

that explains things

[sick jackal]

Do we cast more evis than assa casting envenom?

Overall leta say like a 5 min fight

[fair stump]

I'd say so

[hazy breach]

Iirc yes but not a lot

[fair stump]

hey, I found Eleem parse on princess

[hazy breach]

[fair stump]

Around 20 ish casts difference on that fight on top parsers

[sick jackal]

Sometimes i feel like our combopoint gen is way too more than assa (never played outlaw) makes me feel like evis presses are less valueable

[short radish]

you are right

they are less valuable

when not in dance

[vale lagoon]

i feel like they're just not valuable period lol

it's all about sectech now

but even that is cheapened bcuz ur doing it twice during flag

[barren plume]

Typically is 2 whetstones better than 1 stone 1 wax? I tried the sim thing but I’m too boomer to figure it out

[golden totem]

Last time I simmed consumes for myself, wax + stone was 0.1% better than double stone

[rugged condor]

Are there any early data showing how sub will perform with the shadowdust removal?

[hazy breach]

About the same numerically from initial impressions

[vale pine]

we just got a implementation of supercharger yesteday

but early looks its about exactly the same output

hero talents might be more restrictive

[hazy breach]

Idk im not liking what im seeing when trying to test stuff

[vale pine]

yes

same

[hazy breach]

Unless your literal first gcd of your first dance during cds is sectech

[vale pine]

armin shared me his sim

[hazy breach]

You cannot fit 2 sectechs into your cds