#subtlety

1 messages · Page 12 of 1

short radish
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and being in the world

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probably too strong for pvp or something

fickle sundial
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i miss recup

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that healing finisher from bfa

vestal escarp
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You're very probably talented into it

short radish
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we basically have it

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just weakened

fickle sundial
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talking about the SnD talent?

short radish
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ye

fickle sundial
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ye im sure it helps a lot but isnt majorly noticeable comparatively

hazy breach
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it doesnt help

short radish
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it does feel like it heals a lot less

hazy breach
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It literally just doesnt work

short radish
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than what i think it should heal

vestal escarp
hazy breach
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it only works for manually cast snd duration

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If you extend it via cut to the chase

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It doesnt heal

fickle sundial
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so once that manual duration has expired it doesn’t

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wow

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small indie company ig

short radish
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lmao

vale pine
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its two things

short radish
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holy fucking shit

vale pine
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first of all we got soothing darkness nerfed massively

short radish
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no wonder it always felt so bad

vale pine
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second is the removal of dust and diffrent point economy

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you want me to go more in detail?

vestal escarp
short radish
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yes

vale pine
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i think i haven't talked about point economy

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but let me also make this point

short radish
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please elaborate on how much more fucked we are

hazy breach
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DPS wise its mostly fine. Deathstalker db is only like 1.5-2% behind dust and its getting the cds reduced to 90s instead of 120s

vale pine
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oh i thought it was 3%

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but yes, damage is almost identical

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it is why i mention the change to be mostly a loss of options, oppotunity and defensives

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and gameplay

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the thing with point economy is, you currently can do this

short radish
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wait when you say point economy

vale pine
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if you go down the middle path you get 2 extra points

short radish
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you mean talent point

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not combo point

vale pine
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can invets it in either a dps

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or defensive talents

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but now with 11.0.5

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you only got one point option

image.png
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this seems irrelevant

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but there are 2 defensive options

image.png
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and the middle one is buggy

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so we went with the 2 working good ones

image.png
wispy pebble
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Damn so we lose huge soothing values and leech

vale pine
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but we can't do that anymore because we need to use recup

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now we only have one of the other 2 options

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and soothing is reduced to half its value overall

hazy breach
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Its also weird because based on all the sims and math i did theres literally no reason to play trickster besides court, and it will only get worse after the patch

wispy pebble
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Exhilirating execution will heal some more through extra dmg on charged points right?

vale pine
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thats talent diversity

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the complains are generally missunderstood as

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"subtlety not best rogue spec, so they complain"

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but it rly is a concern of the consequences of changes

bleak wind
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doesn't cold blood lose alot of value without dust

vale pine
hazy breach
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Not a lot, but ye some

vale pine
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and vanish/subterfuge is bad

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so the alternatives are not appealing

void hound
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you are mad because of design decisions
im mad because sub is not op
we are not the same

vale pine
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hah fair

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i mean sub is op

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it has hard to beat burst

short radish
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i mean if sub had good overall numbers

vale pine
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e.g. prophet mentioned people porting out of keys

short radish
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people wouldnt complain as much

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(right?)

vale pine
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and switch sub trickster

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to burst a boss down

short radish
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oh no, not the port tech

vale pine
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thats a very niche application

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but it is "op"

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in that its a option nobody else has

short radish
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we used to do some cursed mage tech when we had warlock as well

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for halls of valor

bleak wind
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idk, double dance without dust feels clunky at best

short radish
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where they'd play fire for the trash till first boss -> swap frost and play that till last boss -> swap play arcane

hazy breach
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I dont even think its that OP, assa's burst with the ST spec isnt that much lower than subs

vale pine
short radish
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it was absolutely cursed but it worked

vale pine
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because 2x vanish

patent crystal
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They need to do something to dance cdr

vale pine
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so your immidiate burst is higher

short radish
vale pine
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if you only focus on doing it once

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thats why i say its niche

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because you burn all your gunpowder

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for one big firework

short radish
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CDR as a mechanic is so shit since it punishes downtime even more

bleak wind
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if you are a cdr class and your sim is not at the top-ish of all classes then its shit design

vale pine
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yes

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and thats one of the many problems of subtlety

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let me point something out thats interessting

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sepsis

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why did people hate sepsis?

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especially on assassiantion

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it did poison damage, so big stonk from mastery

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it had a big explosion

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and the stealth application procced all stealth talents, so sounds exciting

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the problem is delayed gratification

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you press the spell and your immidiate result is dissapointing

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it is why dot based specs are typically harder to sell

bleak wind
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why do people hate dust then, its the most instant gratification you can get 😄

short radish
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desync'd cooldowns suck

vale pine
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its literally just that

bleak wind
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desyncing cooldowns were a problem but not this tier

vale pine
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10.2 you did hevily desync cooldowns

bleak wind
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you pop 1min 30

vale pine
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yes

short radish
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yeah it's fine this tier

vale pine
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but we did in the past

bleak wind
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if you ignore you hold flag

vale pine
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and the tier was special

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see beta was all about the assassiantion rework

short radish
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but needing to have a spreadsheet for every single boss

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was not the play

vale pine
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everyone was excited to play assassiantion

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it got a huge update in talents

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still gets mroe every patch up till now

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to fix remaining problems

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but one thing unexpected happend

teal island
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!wa

wicked joltBOT
vale pine
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everyone who leaned sin

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and was happy to play it

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suddenly was forced to play sub

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because it got nerfed

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when i say forced, you could absolutely play sin

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but due to performance diffrences, at least the top end

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did feel pushed towards it

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now they had not learned or even looked at sub

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it had no super inetressting change or rework

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and nobody did rly think it would be good or played

bleak wind
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but isn't it kinda the same problem, most people would look at the RWF and play sub from it and now sub got 'unintentional' nerfs + assa buffs and you have to swap to a different spec

vale pine
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and then it also desynced cooldowns

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which was bad in gameplay

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so you had this massive player count

void hound
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unfortunately

vale pine
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that hated hard to play sub

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that then ended uip confronted

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with dust and its shanigans

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nobody can tell me

plain zephyr
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Fuu, do you play Sub in M+?

vale pine
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thats a good experience

vale pine
bleak wind
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nothing wrong with a spec being difficult

plain zephyr
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Do you "enjoy" the deathstalker build, or tolerate it.

vale pine
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well the problem was

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dust was too punishing

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e.g. in 10.2 you had 3 play styles

void hound
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i know its an unpopular take, but season 3 sub was kino imo

vale pine
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with diffrent desyncs

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depending on fight lengh

hazy breach
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Deathstalker is mostly how sub played before

vale pine
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so while on prorgess, this was fun to optimize

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it was still extremely hard to understand

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and deciding one minute in the fight

hazy breach
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Besides the eviscerate in aoe

vale pine
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if your fight is 3 or 4 min long

bleak wind
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but sub has historicaly being more punishing if you make mistakes (apart from sepulcher where it was just payphone)

vale pine
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is something that you 50% of the time get wrong

void hound
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nothing hit my dopamine receptor harder than a perfectly played smolderon intermission where you get a double CB and snap shotted tier set proc off

vale pine
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but now

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feedback gathered

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we counetracted

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the raid was extremly unique

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so we had many bosses with specific timers

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so what was done

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was to create a spreadsheet

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to give a easier time to learn cooldown management

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this however made the spec even more technical

alpine wraith
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i mean i also do sheets for bosses now

vale pine
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because now you rely on 3rd parties

alpine wraith
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but now most of those bosses are the first one so no one cares

vale pine
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to figure out for you

bleak wind
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yea I agree that tier was bad

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but the fix is not to remove dust

vale pine
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so the simplest solution

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to solve it

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would be

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to like we asked in 10.2

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just have blades/flag on the same cooldown

bleak wind
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you can just make flag 2 min cooldown and then you strictrly become a 1min 30 spec with a smooth double or even triple dance cooldowns

vale pine
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this however didn't resonate with the dev team

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they wanted this diffrence

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thought it was healthy and good for the game

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so they got proven wrong

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but instead of tackeling the problem in a minor patch after

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we had no change

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and assassiantion was buffed back to the dominant position it was before

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so over time

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less and less players ended up palying it

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because it was complicted

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and esp. in mythic+ which was the main content in DF

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bad

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so the reaosn to play sub in 10.0 and 10.1

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vanished

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and the new iteration was extremely difficult

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and dust wasn't the only difficult thing

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but lets stick with dust

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with the situation stated above

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now you have more voices that say

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"WE NEED TO REMOVE DUST"

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and only a very small part of the palyers

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that rly think of the underlying problems

alpine wraith
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well sub is just fix 1 thing and leave everything there

vale pine
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so now, 11.0.5 they just do that

short radish
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sorry

alpine wraith
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then wonder why it keeps people away from it

short radish
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its my fault

hazy breach
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Wasnt in any notes but it took them 3 days to fix fires ignite dealing 30% less damage than it should.
Whereas nibmle dealing 25% less damage than it should is still a thing since the expac launched 💀

short radish
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i had the no dust tag all throughout this patch

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i don't mean it anymore

alpine wraith
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happens

short radish
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its gone

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dont take dust away blizzard

bleak wind
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I think this is the same as when they reworked roll the bones to not be a finisher because people didn't understand it

fickle sundial
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fuu is subs ride or die

vale pine
short radish
vale pine
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dust solved a fundermental problem

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10.2 put a lot more cp in cooldowns

alpine wraith
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man outlaw in legion was wild

vale pine
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and as such

alpine wraith
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it just got cucked every time it was decent

vale pine
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the cdr of dance was nerfed

fickle sundial
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outlaw in legion was fun

bleak wind
alpine wraith
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nah it was not fun

vale pine
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and now we have 1 dance charge every ~30 seconds

fickle sundial
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RTB felt worse than it does now but dreadblades was neat

alpine wraith
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being nerfed every tier when it was about to be decent

fickle sundial
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hahahaa yeah that was definitely a thing

vale pine
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with how cooldowns work, you want to spend 2 charges of dance during flagelaltion

alpine wraith
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the dispatch rune was nerfed like 8 times

vale pine
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but you have no extra dance charge

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dust solved this

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you could vanish to get enough cdr

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with it gone

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you are forced to take the trade

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and this also comes back to the initial point about sepsis

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sepsis was hated because of delayed gratification

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flagellation does the same

alpine wraith
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sepsis did quite a bit of dmg as sub

vale pine
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you need to build up flagelaltion for the buff

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and then get the benefit

alpine wraith
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problem was placement and also it just being a 1 point thing

vale pine
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and it is punishing

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if you get downtime

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miss one or two casts

alpine wraith
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like sepsis can still crit for 4m

vale pine
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you suddenly don't get full stacks

alpine wraith
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but who want sto use it

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it does not even cleave!

vale pine
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so you have multiple punishing things coming from

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how ramp up mechanics

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and cdr work

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and just pointing this out

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is ofc dooming

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because it discusses a negative effect of design and its consequences

grand fox
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reverse flag where as you use finishers it removes stacks then

vale pine
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flag isn't a core sub mechanic

grand fox
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no but i feel like flag is generally liked no?

vale pine
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yes

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its good

sacred yarrow
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it gives good stats so yes ofc

vale pine
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because it gives a lot fo mastery

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its like

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the new dragonriding is lvoed

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because it gives 3x the fly speed

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just as a thought experiment

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if blizz would give max dragonriding fly speed

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permanently to regular flying

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do you think dragonriding would still be the dominant fly style

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or lets say if its 200% faster than dragonriding by default

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my point is, the power of something is directly related to how much we like or disslike it

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another example is secret technique

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it did almost no damage before DF

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and was not even played for a long time

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the spell didn't change but the power level

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now it does like 300% of its damage

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and we have cold blood to double that

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suddenly its a interessting core spell of subtlety

soft summit
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Shadow dance should be on a 30 second cooldown too

vale pine
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when before that

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you could just remove it and nobody would care

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and this is what flagelaltion is based on

image.png
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it worked diffrntly, with more damic in use

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the activation is atuomated

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what if

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flagellation would always stack to max

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and activate once reached

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would this be better?

plain zephyr
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Shadow dance + symbols on 30 second CD. Flag and Shadow Blades on 1 min 30 second CD. Nothing reduces our CDs. Just every 30 seconds you get it. Would this feel better or worse?

uneven scarab
vale pine
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it would in fact improve some things

hazy breach
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It would change, it would be mostly the same on the dummy but way better anytime you'd lose uptime in actually playing

vale pine
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because if you allow flag to proc later

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it would be less punishing

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but with how tight blades is

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with 16 seconds

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you still run into problems depending on how long you need to proc it

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i like the idea because you would never lose a entire flag if you get unlucky downtime

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or lets say some stacks

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and blades with 16 sec is again a bit of a design problem

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because you rly want a bit of whggle room

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esp. for secret techniques, which without dust is incredibly difficult to fit in 2 dances if you dance back to back

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(and also why eleem mentioned trickster to be dominant in 11.0.5)

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(for reference, trickster has a lower cd on secret from a talent and more cdr due to coup)

wispy pebble
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in m+ do we still hold flag for sb?

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the hell just happened XD

short radish
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glitch in the matrix

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don't worry about it

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carry on with your day

vale pine
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either a discord problem

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or...

sly shore
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seems a discord problem

vale pine
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we hitting the maximum user limit again

sly shore
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because thousands of people are coming online

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at the same time

vale pine
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ye

sly shore
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watching it go from 10k to 15k lmao

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16k

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17k

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19k

vale pine
short radish
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pretty sure it was only this server as well

plain zephyr
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We get to go back to Trickster in M+ in 11.0.5??? Siiiiiick

vale pine
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but only for 10 more days

vale pine
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deathstalker, even if technically stronger

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just plays so poorly

sly shore
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real

vale pine
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and besides that

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trickster tripple dance

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big burst big boom

brisk onyx
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Is the cdr provided by coup already functioning normally?

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in 11.0.5?

vale pine
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and if sub can't compete on dps due to tuning

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might as well just play big burst

plain zephyr
vale pine
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you can

uneven scarab
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You can but its

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Uh

vale pine
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i found it not very nice in gameplay

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and i can

uneven scarab
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Yeah

vale pine
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just play on my gfs

plain zephyr
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I prefer Tickster... I feel weird pressing shuriken storm all the time and stuff.

vale pine
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rogue alt

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and play sin

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and do more dps

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as on my main sub

uneven scarab
vale pine
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so tuning is not rly helping

soft summit
# vale pine yes

If we hold flag for shadow blades then why is flag on a 1.5 timer and shadow blades on a 2 min timer?

Same goes for shadow dance and sec tech along with symbols of death.

Everything on separate cooldown timers make the spec so damn clunky

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Bring flag to 2 min with shadow blades, bring shadow dance, sec tech, cold blood and symbols to 30 seconds. The spec would feel very smooth with minimal down time

plain zephyr
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They're making shadow blades a 1.5 on the 22nd

uneven scarab
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Yeah everything gonna line up on 1.5

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Which is good

soft summit
lucid lily
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Help I did a key as sin and now I’m sad

wanton karma
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Cause you did more damage at half the effort? Yeah…

lucid lily
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Yep

wanton karma
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Same here it hurts lol

lucid lily
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My hands didn’t even cramp up

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What a casual spec

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Yes? The ilvl cap doesn’t change until season 2

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Unless I’m not understanding your question

plain zephyr
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Maybe he means healing

vale pine
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they implement it to diffrent degrees on specs

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basically what it is is

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if you have 2 benefititial things

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you design them to not fit together

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so you create surface for experimenation

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thinking how you line things up

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in this example flag and blades

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how its now is just

fallow nimbus
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Our friction is called friction welding with that much friction

vale pine
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delaying flagelaltion for shadow blades every time

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this is the best benefit situation and it also is gameplay wise the best

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but e.g. just in s3 Dragonflight

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we did desync

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so you did send individual cooldowns solo, and align them later on

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this was bad gameplay wise

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because it was extremely confusing

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it is a intentially crafted diffrence

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and it is why the removal of shadowdust is so loved

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at least by the development team

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as you ask, your question is "why not make them the same"

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and this is the very easy correct solution to the entire friction problem

lucid lily
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It felt so much better when we could just send things on cooldown

vale pine
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and it was just like this given as feedback multiple times

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why it wasn't done/changed was

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this wasn't agreed on

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this is normal

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just to mention this, i am not blaming the dev team

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they have good intentions

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but in how they look at the world

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this diffrence was exciting

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so they never saw a reason to consider a change

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11.0.5

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the change is simply

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to keep the spec damage wise similar

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and also gameplay wise

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(it actually get worse gameplay wise)

barren plume
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But I become squishier

vale pine
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well not nessecery

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we lose defensives

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means solo content is harder

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in raid or m+

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you got healers

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so its less of a concern

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what you lose is dynamic

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you can comrpess cooldowns curently on a fast fight

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you can play both

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90 sec cooldowns

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and 120 sec

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with 11.0.5

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you can not decide

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this dynamic is gone

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you need to play 90 sec, or switch spec

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and there are some problems comming from it

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dust solved some issues with cdr

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on dance and secret

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these will be even more obviouse in 11.0.5

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and mean we probably not even consider playing one hero talent

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so you see, while the change overall are

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"fine"

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and there are some nice things

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like

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👍 we can unbind snd

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or

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👍 new talent in the general tree

lucid lily
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Oh are we going full trickster in 11.0.5?

uneven scarab
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Feels like every single time they change sub they end up causing more problems

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Instead of fixing them

fallow nimbus
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All the good changes are not even related to sub at all

vale pine
vale pine
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the re-designed er

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blizz gave sin some changes

fallow nimbus
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Yes, but it's general tree

vale pine
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to make it better with it

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e.g. you can with ttk

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now stack Envenom

fallow nimbus
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Just a consequence

vale pine
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so your envenom does big deeps

alpine wraith
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yea we also bug it the best

vale pine
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and supercharge it

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also align Darkest night

uneven scarab
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wow thats cool

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i wonder if we will get anything nearly as cool at all

vale pine
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or they also updates subterfuge

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sin now gets 12 sec of ma

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12 secs of improved garrote

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(means also 12 sec to use iron wire)

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12 sec of carnage

uneven scarab
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that’s quite insane lmao

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a bit much

vale pine
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i mean

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they need to spend 2 talent points

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so its not "free"

uneven scarab
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You probably will only go 1 point

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but thats nutty

vale pine
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possible

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its still a weird solution to the problem

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but if you compare sin/sub changes in 11.0.5

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maybe my point becomes apperent

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for sin

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everything changed is a clear positive

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for sub

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its a mixed bag

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it is why we keep having this discussion

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why subtlety players are not happy with the patch

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when things are clearly better

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and i keep repeating details

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because people keep asking

void hound
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surely 11.1 is gonna fix it copium

vestal escarp
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i mean, it's clear under the eyes of everyone that a spec in a great spot like assa got dev time to go into the specifis of a single node that was not responding to the expectation and got a positive change (Twist the knife)

void hound
vale pine
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haha

vestal escarp
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image it like at some random patch sub get dev notes about lets say.... perforated veins

vale pine
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i will just try to be even more objective

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so people can build their own opinion

void hound
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pop off king

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be unhinged

vale pine
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everyone can weight for themselves

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if they think something is a net positive

void hound
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we need to gaslight the devs harder, take a page out of the boomkin playbook

uneven scarab
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With what we have so far it just feels like they are taking away and not giving much back in return

vale pine
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XD

uneven scarab
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and that never feels good

vale pine
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its more

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some things are qol changes

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and as such we put less value in them

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e.g. cttc

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is a nice change

uneven scarab
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Yeah cttc is very nice but

vale pine
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but its a very minor qol point

uneven scarab
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Makes our opener

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Kinda weird

lucid lily
alpine wraith
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opener is not weird unless you do supercharger bug

vale pine
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there was a general stop of communication

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from blizz

plain zephyr
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The top 4 Sub Rogues on Murlok.io are playing Invigorating Shadowdust in M+. Is that vs. Brew just a preference? Or should I be playing Dust?

alpine wraith
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it is just miserable to play

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db

vale pine
uneven scarab
vale pine
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in the end i can see why

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critical dsicussions are difficult

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and especially if there are not positive changes

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its harder to sell

alpine wraith
vale pine
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it is why assassiantion is more positive in reaction

alpine wraith
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there are like 3

vale pine
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their updates ended up qutie good

alpine wraith
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some bad some good

uneven scarab
vale pine
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while other specs had some conflicts

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so maybe that was "too much"

#

e.g. outlaw was very loud about acro removal

#

and while it was rly bad

#

in how it was approached from dev communication

#

i can see how he didn't want to hear from people how its a bad change

#

it consumed a lot of conversations

#

any discussion of a change

#

will have a lot of critique

#

e.g. i still discuss

#

how the 30% storm energy increase was bad

#

or how the nerf to shadow dance cdr was not good

#

both maybe decisions that are disagreed on

#

and in any discussion

#

you want the other party to resonate with your opinion

#

so then more friction you have

#

then less likely it is that you like to continue a discussion

alpine wraith
#

i actually im in favor for more energy on finishers/builders

vale pine
#

and i think thats why subtlety gets no information

alpine wraith
#

but they also need to do way more dmg

lucid lily
alpine wraith
#

if you increase storm cost so much it has to do something more

vale pine
#

or well classes in general

void hound
alpine wraith
#

but they have to be truckers

vale pine
#

the problem is

void hound
#

chyup

vale pine
#

every time you put yourself in the spotlight

#

you get negative feedback too

void hound
#

storm BP spam when BP does noodle damage is not fun

vale pine
#

especially if you do chanegs that seem to be bad

#

it is also why it makes more sense

#

to have a community manager instead of a dev

#

to filter out negative emotions or repeat discussions

#

what blizz currently does

#

is neither

#

their approach is the old one

#

basically, we just deisgn something

#

and then release it

void hound
#

community manager in the age of activison became a fever dream unfortunately

vale pine
#

and if people hate it

#

there will be outrage

#

and we can consider fixing it

#

depending on how high of a priority or outrage it is

lucid lily
#

Forgiveness vs. Permission

vale pine
#

so for subtlety

#

the question is

#

how bad of a spot is the spec

#

because inherntly

#

every spec in the game has problems

#

there is no perfect spec

uneven scarab
#

Could left it as is and just bugfixed it

vale pine
#

e.g. for 11.0.5

#

it was decided

uneven scarab
#

And i think most people woulda been happy

vale pine
#

that ER was a button people didn't like

#

so they reworked it

#

then they thought of Subterfuge for assassaitnion as a problem

#

so they added the new benefit to "fix it"

#

and they thought dust was a problem

#

so they purged it

#

so in terms of this mentioned priority

#

making sure subterfuge is a good talent for assassiantion was higher

#

than making sure subterfuge was a good talent for subtlety

#

i just making a point

#

because its equally useless for subtlety

#

many of the changes ended up general changes however

#

the new sub talent was just added

#

as seemingly a filler

#

for where dust was

#

cttc chanegs end up a net positive for all 3

#

outlaw had kir buffed

#

but i am not sure if that isn't just to make up for the lost cdr from er

#

(old er gave more combo points than new one, and outlaw has most of its damage in builders)

uneven scarab
#

I just feel like the talent that replaced dust just

#

doesnt actually make sense

vale pine
#

it is noticable worse in power level

hazy breach
#

The placement in particular doesnt make sense

vale pine
#

and as such has problems to compete

#

exactly what eleem mentioned

uneven scarab
#

Does not seem NEARLY strong enough for a capstone

vale pine
#

the place it is at

#

makes it hard to reach

#

and as such, it needs higher power level

#

to compete

#

e.g. if you think about it

#

if you only look at symbols

#

and compare the new vs. dust

#

dust did reset symbols cooldown every time you used vanish

uneven scarab
#

Yeah you could pandemic symbols

#

I liked that mechanic alot

vale pine
#

and the new talent gives you one use of symbols per fight

round latch
#

Sub podcast,discussing sub problems

#

armin,stealthi

uneven scarab
vale pine
#

so if you know what this means

round latch
#

other subbies

vale pine
#

it means

#

on a 5 minute fight

#

you ger 3x symbols from dust

#

vs. with the new talent

#

2

uneven scarab
#

Lul

vale pine
#

i think bringing this example

#

makes it more obviouse

#

why the new tlaent is a lot weaker

uneven scarab
#

Yeah thats a really good way to put it

#

In clear terms its power level

vale pine
#

if its not clear why its 3 symbols

#

you start with vanish off cd

#

so you vnaish

#

and then 2x 2 min

#

if you include 2nd vanish charge

#

would do it even more dirty

#

because you would vanish every 1 min 30

#

so in 5 mins 4 times

#

would mean 4 symbols

#

vs. 2 with new

#

this is also why they added the % damage bonus

#

to hope to fix this

uneven scarab
#

Dont even think the damage bonus really makes up much

#

either though

vale pine
#

nope

#

basically

uneven scarab
#

its so minimal

vale pine
#

its also

#

supercharger triggers on symbols

#

but then again

#

you get 1 more trigger

#

per point in the talent

#

so its less insane than you would assume

uneven scarab
#

They just need to lean in hard on the fact we are a finisher spec

#

And give us more bonuses

#

in that regard

hoary coyote
#

tbh i gave up on sub
it was my favorite spec
and this is what ppl were spamming in comments (( we hate dust ))
dust build was ok u just need a bit of knowledge about timers

uneven scarab
#

Like why the hell is blades as bad as it is

#

Dust build is easy when you think about it as just aligning blades to flag

#

and for more cd uses during burst

lucid lily
#

Dust was better when you could send stuff on CD

vale pine
lucid lily
#

Lining stuff up is obnoxious

vale pine
#

i mentioned it earlier

wispy pebble
#

Dust is not that bad. The only weird thing is the window between first and second shadow dance because it changes on how many cp you got with ShadowTech

vale pine
#

all the dust hate roots back to 10.2

round latch
vale pine
uneven scarab
vale pine
#

dust just was very complicated in 10.2

#

and the raid had a lot of specific fights

uneven scarab
#

Was also a result of the raid timings though no

#

?

vale pine
#

both raid timing

#

but also design

round latch
vale pine
#

don't make assumptions that i didn't ask that the podcast wasn't collaborative

#

in fact i was the one suggesting it

#

or part of it

round latch
vale pine
#

dracthyr_shrug i am just saying, you make assumptions

#

based on missing information

hoary coyote
#

and the point is
a casual guy still cant enjoy sub rogue with these changes 😄

round latch
#

ik im trying to fish seli into a new podcast

#

he will prolly ignore me

vale pine
#

i don't think its good for the health of the community

round latch
#

idk man,podcasts are fun

vale pine
#

at least the current one was

empty hornet
round latch
#

😂

empty hornet
round latch
vale pine
#

back to the discussion

#

10.2 sub was hated because you needed a spradsheet to play it

#

this isn't the case anymore

void hound
vale pine
empty hornet
barren plume
#

Lol

round latch
wispy pebble
#

what even would the discussion be? "Sub is shit" "yea" "cool"

uneven scarab
#

Sub’s voice in the community just needs to be louder

#

Blizzard dont hear us

vale pine
uneven scarab
wispy pebble
vale pine
#

just like with anything

#

you can dsicuss design problems

#

future changes

#

how well the raid/m+ works

void hound
wispy pebble
vale pine
uneven scarab
#

I just think like eleem mentioned, fire mage ignite breaks gets fixed in three days, here we sit with numble flurry STILL doing less than it says on the tooltip

barren plume
#

They aren’t changing a lot to sub though I don’t think I’d call it a rework more like a small change with no bug fixes that would make things work properly and increase our dmg

vale pine
#

11.0.5

#

is very much a qol update

#

just that the subtlety changes got oversold

uneven scarab
#

Playerbase is much smaller

vale pine
#

its a problem of interesst

#

e.g. subtlety aside

uneven scarab
#

Yeah that’s definitely part of it

vale pine
#

rogue is the least palyed class

#

evoker is about on par but too new to include

barren plume
#

I don’t like sin but I play it in an+, I want to be lurking in the shadows and just decimating every time I hit a target

vale pine
#

most ppl don't care about rogue

wispy pebble
#

law doesnt have any players atm either tbh

vale pine
#

in fact many pvp players

uneven scarab
#

Yeah true, law is kinda in the same boat

vale pine
#

want rogue to ... well have not a very pleasent time

uneven scarab
#

really unfair way of thinking about a class though

#

You can always tune for pvp

wispy pebble
#

the 10 pvp players left will be fine facing the single rogue

vale pine
#

the problem is just feedback

alpine wraith
#

you cant tune for feelings

#

sadly

vale pine
#

you get stunned

void hound
uneven scarab
#

Yeah ofc

alpine wraith
#

who wants to get blinded kidney sapped

vale pine
#

and can't do much about it

alpine wraith
#

cheapshot

uneven scarab
vale pine
#

so you need to at elast sit shortly in a stun

#

waiting

uneven scarab
#

Cant even hit a mage

vale pine
#

getting damage

uneven scarab
#

90% of the time

vale pine
#

right

uneven scarab
#

and we are rogue

#

We stun

vale pine
#

like they always had a rich toolkit

uneven scarab
#

hehe

#

tbf so did rogue

#

Mage/rogue have always kinda been

vale pine
#

it did

uneven scarab
#

The BIG pvp specs

vale pine
#

but the design philosophy flipped

#

at one point

barren plume
#

But more people play mage so they keep their nice things

vale pine
#

it seems like designers just didn't like rogue anymore

#

and it could be bias

uneven scarab
vale pine
#

or just a consequence of design decisions

#

e.g. rogue had some exploits

wispy pebble
#

im willing to drop sap and kidney for bl !

vale pine
#

during wod

uneven scarab
vale pine
#

you had multiple rogues

uneven scarab
#

No me love kidney

vale pine
#

to soak stuff

#

with cheat death

#

so you could solo soak

uneven scarab
#

Oh good times

void hound
vale pine
#

or during Legion

#

we had feint making rogue solo soak on many fights

uneven scarab
vale pine
#

in the rogue community

#

it is why people are upset

#

its a sign that people care

uneven scarab
#

Hunter/dk/rogue can all easily solo soak stuff

vale pine
#

kinda

#

"i want to like the game, but this is rly problematic"

vale pine
wispy pebble
#

arent there loads of clases that can solo soak ? Really isnt a selling point anymore imo

vale pine
#

feint is also why

#

we had no raid buff

void hound
uneven scarab
#

Feint was def an issue at the time

vale pine
#

rogue was assumed to bring enough utility to the raid

uneven scarab
#

but like now?

vale pine
uneven scarab
#

Community perception

void hound
uneven scarab
#

people say its hard/you NEED restealths

vale pine
#

is it

void hound
#

yeah ofc

uneven scarab
#

relies on tanks

vale pine
#

like just to outline some stats

#

rogue or rogue like characters

wispy pebble
#

tbh assa is played well, Outlaw doesnt feel roguey, sub is just to hard /undertuned mostly

vale pine
#

are almost always within top 3-5 classes

#

in arpgs or rpgs

alpine wraith
#

you rely on the tanks but for other reasons

void hound
#

you see rogue you want to play zed from league of legends
but youre left with convoluted and visually boring gameplay

vale pine
#

sometimes higher

#

but if you look at some data released

#

rogue is always quite popular

wispy pebble
#

Dual weild classes are always played a lot, ninja like classes as well

uneven scarab
#

I think assa has good visuals

void hound
vale pine
#

its not only wow

#

iirc final fanatsy has the same problem

uneven scarab
#

Ffxiv ninja is like one of the most loved classes

#

Or used to be

vale pine
#

and there are multiple other problems

uneven scarab
#

its been a while since I played

vale pine
#

lets start with the very first

wispy pebble
#

Isnt ninja played well?

vale pine
#

leveling and solo play

void hound
#

rogue has the fundamental problem of not delivering on the class fantasy and the specs not being distinct enough imo

vale pine
#

mop remix

#

a fun game mode

#

had people level chars like hell

#

and universally

#

and this is like very unique in the wow community

#

everyone agreed

#

rogue was the worse possible leveling experience

wispy pebble
#

Nvm ninja isnt played XD But viper probably stole quite some players

vale pine
#

leveling is the first thing people do when getting familiar with the game

#

then there is visuals

uneven scarab
#

Rogue has ultimately had a pretty awful leveling experience for a while

#

because all the important stuff is at the top

#

That make the class work

vale pine
#

visuals arn't that great

void hound
#

right and the new player experience is so bad, its being used as a torture device at CIA black sites

vale pine
#

like the game has a lot of bad visuals

#

and very good ones

alpine wraith
#

weekly quests finally done

vale pine
#

but rogue is not flashy

wispy pebble
#

i think leveling doesnt matter for classes anymore tbh, but why would you level a rogue instead of anything else?

alpine wraith
#

now time to farm grim batol

image.png
vale pine
#

and has quite some outdated visuals

barren plume
#

Idk I don’t mind leveling as a rogue… stealth around pick what I want to kill. Complete quests without having to clear tons of mobs

vale pine
#

think of it

alpine wraith
#

SURELY next week i get transmitter

vale pine
#

secret technique still

#

has the placeholder animation

grave abyss
#

I also like ffxiv ninja, but it doesn't deliver on the sneaky rogue thief trickster class fantasy at all
stealth almost nonexistent, class was like a hybrid alternate source caster
dunno about viper but from what I saw it was more like a melee brawler too

vale pine
#

and that was introcuded in BfA

#

so 6+ years after the introduction

alpine wraith
#

in bfa it actually had copies

#

now they went to get milk

void hound
alpine wraith
#

brb

barren plume
vale pine
#

then 3rd point

grave abyss
#

the only mmo I've seen deliver well on rogue class fantasy was blade and soul, and that's coomer bait lmao

vale pine
#

there are now more rogue classes

uneven scarab
#

did the tier set that gave our finishers clones have an animation?

vale pine
#

rogue is a swift melee fighter

#

turns out

#

monk is too

#

and dh

barren plume
#

Idk why we get a mini game on transmitter and int caster get spymasters just build stacks and use to pump like gifs

vale pine
#

so what was initially 1 class

uneven scarab
alpine wraith
#

spymasters should have been omniclass

#

like transmitter

vale pine
#

now competes with 2 other "rogue like" classes

#

so lets move to the 4th point

#

raid position

wispy pebble
#

i dont have the stats for that but pretty surely dh stole loads of playerbase from rogues

vale pine
#

rogue is the only class with a singular position in raid

round latch
vale pine
void hound
#

DH is better designed in almost every regard so it makes sense

vale pine
#

there are 4 raid positions

#

melee, ranged, healer, tank

#

technically 5

#

with support, but thats only aug

wispy pebble
vale pine
#

but they raid positions all have their own unique benefits

#

melee dps is however the least relevant raid position

#

you have a lot of competing specs

#

and ranged dps is fighting for your spots

#

which is in general better at filling the DPS position

void hound
#

melee vs ranged is a matter of tuning more than anything else

#

and encounter design

vale pine
#

yes

#

but look at historical data

#

and fight designes

alpine wraith
vale pine
#

you saw more melees this tier

alpine wraith
#

im down bad on on uses

vale pine
#

because some meless are op

wispy pebble
#

current dungeons are heavily ranged favored but melee dds are still favored

vale pine
#

e.g. DK on certain fights

#

also just to mention this

#

if you want to more fine grain discuss it

#

melee dps should be split in 2 groups

#

pure melee dps

#

melees that need to stay on the boss like sub/outlaw

#

and hybrits

#

dps that can cast big parts of their rotstion from range

#

ret, dk etc.

wispy pebble
#

Ranged kunai based roguen spec !

vale pine
#

then more "pure" melee you are

barren plume
vale pine
#

then more sensitive the spec or class is to raid mechanics

hoary shore
#

is there any buffs for wednesday ?

barren plume
#

And I would just be yelling Nina star on repeat during raid Comms

vale pine
#

nope

wispy pebble
vale pine
#

acrobatic strike to a degree blurred it a bit

#

so was actually a smart trick

#

but well, the design team didn't like it

#

so its gonezo

#

bye bye

keen dome
uneven scarab
#

I really dont even think acro was that big of a deal

vale pine
#

it helped

alpine wraith
#

it was quite big for outlaw and sub

vale pine
#

basically

#

a lot of people dm me

uneven scarab
#

Well law felt AWFUL without it

vale pine
#

and the top 2 complains people have

wispy pebble
#

its wild how much dmg sub rogue loses during downtime while a lot of other specs have ways to just keep up damage

vale pine
#

#1 subtlety energy feels bad in dungoens

#

a consequence of the shuriken storm eneryg nerfs

#

#2 people tell me they reroll, because rogue feels terrible without acro

#

a consequence of acro removal

uneven scarab
#

Idk i played without for so long

#

Never really noticed

vale pine
#

yes

#

but you think of it in a diffrent way

uneven scarab
#

Yeah ofc

void hound
#

#2 is a great example of loss aversion

vale pine
#

people go with the least ressistent appraoch

void hound
#

everyone lost acro so the playing field is even

#

yet nobody lieks it

#

so it makes little sense

vale pine
#

they don't like to adjust

#

and there is ret

#

easier

#

higher range

void hound
#

yeah

#

people like spamming button

vale pine
#

so why bother

void hound
#

and having it be easy mode

vale pine
#

so its not saying the removal is bad

#

but it impacts the appeal of the class

void hound
#

the removal was good

#

it was better for the game

vale pine
#

i don't know why, but sure

#

but we have a other point

void hound
#

cause it makes positioning more important

uneven scarab
#

I found it a qol thing

vale pine
#

^

uneven scarab
#

i could cheese mechs a little

vale pine
#

melee can be quite hectic and crowded

uneven scarab
#

And also didnt have to worry about being up the bosses ass

vale pine
#

having slightly higher range is a smart way to make it less problematic

brittle rain
#

I think rogue is considered „hard“, doesn’t have other roles and having an awful leveling experience are probably main reasons people don’t pick it up

round latch
void hound
#

optimizing up time should be a core melee skill
which is diminished when you can just melee from a million yards

uneven scarab
#

idk acro wasnt THAT far lol

#

but fair

wispy pebble
#

my biggest gripes with sub atm:

  1. Every moment i cant attack i fuck my cooldown lineup because cdr on finishers
  2. The range that was removed means point 1 happens way more often
  3. Make gloomblade baseline the fckin backstab modifier is impossible to use in loads of fights
barren plume
#

Why can’t I melee attack from where the hunters and mages cast from its bullshit

vale pine
brittle rain
#

Acro felt super nice in arena as well and there I missed it big time