subtlety

[vale pine]

yet

10 days from now

they purge it

without propper compensation

if you now look at warcrftlogs or other statistics

subtlety was never that op outside of a very specific fight

that seemed like reasonable for its deisgn

[vale lagoon]

i think i saw some logs

where sub is like top dog on heroic

and trash on mythic

and i just lol'ed

[vale pine]

yes

thats the case too

so people kinda

10.2

had a very extreme raid

extreme in that it was very non standard fight timings

and had a lot of special fights

[vale lagoon]

but with ALL that in mind

[vale pine]

the niche did work well for that, and as such subtlty was played

BUT also only because assassiantion got nerfed

[vale lagoon]

i still feel like if they just let sub stay the way it was in super early df, none of this would've happened

[vale pine]

yes potentially

there would be a other problem to that

so s3 subtlety was asusmed to be OP because of this niche

[vale lagoon]

yeah it'd be much easier, ppl wouldn't be mad about having to learn to faceroll a shadowdance rotation every 30 seconds lol

[vale pine]

you can find mostly players of the other 2 specs discuss how broken or op the niche is

[vale lagoon]

that's what, 15 minutes on the target dummies?

[vale pine]

but if you look at s4, where tuning did change less in favor of the spec

or look at 11.0

where the niche still exist

subtlety looks statistically irrelevant

it does not look op at all

[vale lagoon]

the short burst niche u mean?

[vale pine]

more the dynamic

you can change when your burst is ready

[vale lagoon]

wait what

OH

you mean with dust

[vale pine]

yes

[vale lagoon]

but that's the polar opposite of the short burst style no?

[vale pine]

no

[fringe palm]

the niche + op trinket still make them the best spec on, again, the fight with a dmg amp

[vale pine]

yes

but thats a niche

similar to split cleaave

or other common raid things

[vale lagoon]

how can shadowdust be compared to that 1 dance build haha that's kinda cazy

[vale pine]

its like saying

a fight with a important last phase

makes execute specs good

so we need to remove execute

because its op

[fallow nimbus]

They should

[vale pine]

and you can find a lot of similar niches

and we take them at the best case scenario

and say "its completely broken"

[vale lagoon]

but i dont get it

[fallow nimbus]

But we get the nerf

[vale pine]

the other problem is

shadowdust was only complicated for a diffrent reason

beasically the main reason people had problems with it

was because of how cooldowns are deisgned

you have a 1 min 30 and a 2 min cooldown

so there is this gap

[vale lagoon]

they first destroyed the style where u burst on 30 seconds, and to this day i haven't heard anyone complaining about that being op, and then they introduced a completely different niche that's super complicated

[vale pine]

and this can lead to weird syncronsiation

[vale lagoon]

like

why

[vale pine]

this was also put to the dev team as feedback

[fallow nimbus]

Did some sub rogue in here upset realz?

[vale pine]

to please correct cooldown timers

but this cooldown correction was again not agreed on

the dev team wanted them to be diffrent

[fallow nimbus]

Because we catch hands left and right

[vale pine]

to keep friction

[fringe palm]

have you read half the stuff people are typing

[vale lagoon]

i just feel like there is 0 connections between 1 dance build and dust build

and there was no reason for 1 dance build to be killed off

[vale pine]

i mean in the end

if thats the reason why sub gets threaded like shit

i am sure there is something who shouldn't work in games

communities will point out problems

so individuals will need to be able to take critisism

if the reaction is to completely destroy the palyerbase of a spec

its not only childish but harmful to the company

[fierce ivy]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation:
Has anyone played sub on PTR without dust? How does it feel when you're not able to reset secTech? Is it a big loss?

[vale lagoon]

wait but this happened like a year and a half ago no

[vale pine]

so lets not make this assumption

[vale lagoon]

were ppl saying bad things about blizzard in here back when sub was legit top dog in m+?

[vale pine]

you just play trickster

[vale lagoon]

i find that hard to believe

[vale pine]

no

in fact many of the feedback of 10.2

was to not over complicate the spec

the problem is

not everyone liked the rework

[vale lagoon]

HUH

[vale pine]

and you know

that turned out to be correct

[vale lagoon]

the "rework" as in the 1 dance build in particular or the overall tree? because i remember there was also a flag build then

and it was not super bad

[vale pine]

the 10.2 rework

[vale lagoon]

oh god

i didn't play 10.2 is why

[vale pine]

yikes

[gritty knot]

Our collegues mock us

[vale lagoon]

but why did we need a rework in 10.2

[vale pine]

i expected more from whispyr

well

[fallow nimbus]

What did you expect from assa players

[alpine wraith]

hey we are meta in pvp

[vale pine]

maybe some obcectivity

[alpine wraith]

not wrong

PVP SPEC

[vale lagoon]

huh that's weird tho

[alpine wraith]

meanwhile rogue got rinsed by shadowplay just yesterday

[vale lagoon]

was sub "meta" even with the 1 dance build lol

[alpine wraith]

NA bracket is rough

in s1 df sub was good

because of last boss things

[vestal escarp]

pvp spec

[vale lagoon]

i remember it got more popular, but not overwhelmingly so

[alpine wraith]

it was not super good in st

but you didnt lose st by doing bp

so interphase you did good dmg

and still did goop shield dmg without cvds

[vale lagoon]

huh

[alpine wraith]

then used cds on boss

[vale lagoon]

oh

this is pure raid prog

[alpine wraith]

in pvp you still didnt have nerfed ER and sec tech

so you had 1 week of god mode

then nerfed 60%

[vale lagoon]

lol im afraid i just farmed mythic first 3 for trinket and ring haha

[alpine wraith]

and went into hiding

outlaw became the pvp spec

for like 2 or 3 seasons then

except 1 comp with sub ww

or mm sub

[vale lagoon]

but i mean im still not hearing anything that warranted them destroying the 1 dance build entirely

i remember bfa sub legit was a menace

but not df

[alpine wraith]

bfa sub was full on pvp spec yuea

[vale lagoon]

in df it was just a nice spec that was viable

kinda like ret rn

like it does well but it's no sin or frost

i feel like i've gotten so much history without being given an answer as to why they nuked the 1 dance idea and tried to push for dust

[vestal escarp]

hi whuspyr

[teal coral]

that is the objective take btw

sub's in a weird spot for sure

[alpine wraith]

sub always had that one weird boss

[teal coral]

but it's like actually not THAT bad

[alpine wraith]

i mean it is the feral ret surv concord too

[vestal escarp]

depends when you start counting the streak ackshually

[alpine wraith]

if the other specs are better they get yeeted

[vestal escarp]

cause S4 DF existed

[teal coral]

like it was still played in race this tier even with the giga doom

aoe stuff is real cringe I agree and sub is in a super weird place for m+

but like

[fallow nimbus]

The doom started with 0.5 patch notes i think

[teal coral]

welcome to assa from legion until 10.2

it's just actually not as bad as people make it out idk

[vale lagoon]

i think what's really bad is the list of bugs i was seeing haha

[teal coral]

every spec has issues, sub has bigger issues than the other 2

[vestal escarp]

turns out when you have to choose between the mid St burst and the mid ST burst that doesnt ramp and has wonky tmers

[keen dome]

It's fine for 'most' content but it doesn't feel good. Although most of that is the bugginess and womp womp.

[vestal escarp]

you choose the no ramp

[teal coral]

but the notion that the spec is actually going up in flames is just insane

[vale lagoon]

i can give up 1 dance for blade flurry, i love that new talent

but it just seems like a LOT of very impactful bugs

[fallow nimbus]

Wasn't antorus an assa tier, then bfa was assa too with outlaw m+

[vale lagoon]

that aren't addressed

[teal coral]

it helps to just take a step back for like 5 minutes and really think if it's all that bad

[alpine wraith]

nah it never goes up in flames quite far people just leave

it is just mid

[teal coral]

.5 changes are a bit underbaked but a step in the right direction

like it'll be aight

[alpine wraith]

so you get the same 5 people here that is sad so it seems worse than it is

[vestal escarp]

bruh

[keen dome]

11.1 rework dreeeeeam (with posion toggle)

[vestal escarp]

whispyr hard selling us copium

[vale pine]

objectively seen

[alpine wraith]

we will do less dmg and the spec will be more boring but they finally kill some things that confused them

so maygbe they can do something now

[vale pine]

the only reason subtlety is played in raid is dust

[vale lagoon]

...tbf, this sin rogue in my guild who's like 5 ilvls below me and super inexperienced, falls like 400k below my dps on heroic queen, and he's still doing more than me on big pulls in keys

[keen dome]

Hopefully it's just a stepping stone to something better

[vale lagoon]

it's kinda sad

[vale pine]

there is a burst driectly linked to it

this burst damage makes subtlety good in mythic

[alpine wraith]

it is what it is

we also got shit agi trinkets

[vale pine]

but outside of this, you had the spec changed in ways

[alpine wraith]

all the cool ones got nerfed

[vale pine]

people stop playing it

we are in a spot where play rate numbers showcase it as the worse dps spec in the game

so saiyng "its not bad, take a step back"

[vale lagoon]

but i mean we can only use huge on-use trinkets because of how bad we are without flag + blades right

[vale pine]

when the one change 11.0.5 does is exactly take out this niche

[vale lagoon]

even if they keep all the normal flat stat trinkets super strong idk if we cna use them

[teal coral]

I mean shadowdust being gone is just good for the spec though, we've complained about dust for 2 expansions and now we're complaining that it's gone?

[vale pine]

i think is trying to be overly positive

i don't disagre on that point

but the problem is

it was what you mentioned

[alpine wraith]

well it really depends it does make the spec more accesible

[fallow nimbus]

Only inexperienced people complained about dust itself

[vestal escarp]

dust gone good, sub as is bad

[vale pine]

"subtlety got played in the world first race, so its not bad"

[teal coral]

that's legit 90% of the community

[alpine wraith]

but even if you make the spec more accessible it is not making people wanting to play it

[vale lagoon]

i think current dust isn't even that bad tho lol, rn aren't we literally just using it right after 1st sectech

[alpine wraith]

you wont hear many people nice dust finally gone let me try sub

oh wait this shit still has 9 diff cds

im out

[vale pine]

the 10.2 chanegs overly complicated the spec

for no apperent reason

[teal coral]

yeah it's keeping it's niche on cd timing in .5 though with the changes

[vale pine]

and the playerbase drifts away

[alpine wraith]

after changes we are worse arms or worse fdk

[vale pine]

and the spec becoems successively worse in parts it wasn't

[alpine wraith]

but 1:30 rogue

[vale pine]

like i get it

its easy to say

[alpine wraith]

so i guess if fights have 1:30 timers instead of assa or outlaw you play sub

[finite carbon]

Ngl

[vale pine]

"subtlety palyers are crybabies, spec wasn't bad for last 3 xpacs"

[vestal escarp]

2

[finite carbon]

What’s happening with sub rn is better than another season of dust

[vale pine]

but thats dismissiing obviouse problems

[keen dome]

play Sub anyway and be the golden goose, the rare sight, the legendary Sub rogue.

[honest basin]

You wild for that one

[vale lagoon]

wasn't sub rly bad after early bfa and all throughout shadowlands?

[alpine wraith]

well have been playing that since cata kinda but idk

[vale lagoon]

and also rly bad in legion save for the dfa era

[honest basin]

I'm the number 1 dust hater and even I recognize that dust is good for sub rn

[fringe palm]

1.30 baseline sub is worse on court mythic than assa and its not that close

[alpine wraith]

it is not the worst we have been

[finite carbon]

Nah are you gonna look me in the eyes and tell me shadowdust was remotely healthy for the spec

[fierce ivy]

na, sub was pretty good in shadowlands from sanctum of domination onwards

[keen dome]

Yeah, we're not at BfA-levels.

[alpine wraith]

but still what annoys me more is the easily fixed bugs

that kill like 10% of overall dps

[honest basin]

Yeah, it's about all that's keeping it together.

[alpine wraith]

or more

[vale lagoon]

ikr, bring back 1 dance flatline sub! toss that flag shit

[alpine wraith]

if they fixed those sub would be super fine

[keen dome]

Ye, I think the bugginess is the objectively worst part of it all right now. So much of the power, of the issues, are locked into them.

[alpine wraith]

maybe needed a nerf even

[fallow nimbus]

After zul in bfa was the lowest and we head to a similar situation right now

[keen dome]

Because that isn't a design issue, that isn't a style issue. it's just bugginess.

[vale pine]

the dooming is high because the recent chanegs didn't seem good

and because there is little to no communication

[teal coral]

yeah idk, like I get that there's problems with the spec, I've played the spec, but I just don't get how .5 changes are being seen so giga negatively when it's kinda just whatever and dust removal + hero talents are bad (they're bad for 75% of specs in the game)

[keen dome]

Supercharger will be pretty fun

[teal coral]

yeh

supercharger looks real good

[keen dome]

It'd just be nice if they also fixed the bugginess. Like I think that's the real crux of it.

[vale lagoon]

i think if they just confirmed bugfixes first, this channel would be suuuuper hyped

[teal coral]

yeah, the bugs suck

[vale pine]

i mean you agree again

[keen dome]

It's the mid changes (and some very good ones, I still think the S&D change is rad) and the bugginess combined that make it feel so hopeless.

[vale lagoon]

a lot fo the bugs are rly crazy

[finite carbon]

This is fine

[vale pine]

so i don't think the gist is the same

[finite carbon]

Sometimes you gotta build it back from the ground up

They shouldn’t have done it in a .5 patch tho

[teal coral]

yeah I agree again, I agree cause people aren't blindly dooming like usual

[keen dome]

Nimble Flurry still being 40% at this point, for so long, is some real absurdity.

[finite carbon]

But dust def needed to be taken out back and blasted

It’s not like the community liked shadowdust anyways

[vale pine]

dust removal is great

but the compensation or work done after is just missing

[keen dome]

ye

[finite carbon]

And having the spec so heavily reliant on it, of course it’s gonna stumble now that it’s gone

[honest basin]

I don't like dust but I do like sub and trickster being even borderline playable

[vale pine]

and it leaves the spec in a extremly concerning spot

[keen dome]

I do think it's a stepping stone to 11.1 and will eat my hat if it isn't

[teal coral]

idk it's also just a 0.5 patch

[finite carbon]

They obviously needed more time for sub rogue as a whole and it’s probably gonna see more changes in a .7 patch

[honest basin]

11.1 full sub re-rework incoming kek

[teal coral]

like are we expecting a rework

[finite carbon]

Or a .1 patch

[teal coral]

in a .5 patch

[vale pine]

we expect nothing

[keen dome]

Ideally I think they should've kept the dust change until 11.1 with something more substanial.

[vale pine]

isn't this part of the problem

[finite carbon]

Nah

Fuck dust

[alpine wraith]

well the problem for sub is that comparison is the thief of joy

[vale pine]

communication isn't the strengh of blizz

[alpine wraith]

you look at sub and you see bp buff

you see mm ret prot etc

[vale pine]

and it leads to this in between state

[vale lagoon]

wait didn't hunters get some big changes to their dark ranger thingy haha

[alpine wraith]

you see 10000 changes

[keen dome]

Can we get another one of those Bp buffs by the way. Maybe two.

[vale pine]

ret rework was .7

just saying ^^

[alpine wraith]

no they got lots this 0.5 too

[vale pine]

but what to expect is unclear

[keen dome]

Yeah, it'd be good to get some communication on it

Like "hey we're cooking some stuff, we hear you"

Or not even hear, just "We are aware"

[vale pine]

the fact is, 10.2 has as many bad as it has good things

[finite carbon]

Ret rework btw

Has its own issues

And still suffers from those issues

[vale pine]

and ever since 10.2 there was mostly overall negative changes

so being upset seems for me justified

[finite carbon]

So I wouldn’t put the retrework on a pedastal when frankly

[vestal escarp]

while 10.2 raid design and inflated tier set worked in favor of sub overshadowing the problems

[finite carbon]

I would have loved to see ret get what sub is getting now

[vale lagoon]

i think also the fact that people have found a way to make a spec work through design flaws, only to then be cucked by straight up bugs

that's just such a horrible feeling

and i think blizz did great with trickster too

[finite carbon]

Seeing sub getting actual burst cds with line up with flag and shadow blades

[vale lagoon]

trickster sub feels so refreshing and fun even if i despise flag

but like

[finite carbon]

While seeing seraphim ripped from my hands and my other burst buttons attached to my 30second S generator and nerfed to fit

[vale lagoon]

flurry is bugged, blades is bugged with flurry, etc etc

[finite carbon]

Kinda makes me Madge tbh

[fickle sundial]

that’s super feels bad man

ret has decently consistent dmg tho doesn’t it? feels like they do when i get them in m+

[finite carbon]

My resource means nothing

[vale pine]

ret is now a 3 button spec

[finite carbon]

There’s no skill ceiling

Yep

[fickle sundial]

ya

[alpine wraith]

yea ret got the bm and frost mage treatment

the wings even procs by themselves

[fickle sundial]

ret doesn’t even have enough buttons to fill 2 bars

it’s insane

[alpine wraith]

it also has lots of utility

so good

[finite carbon]

So ya I don’t think we should point at ret for “good reworks”

[vale pine]

the problem overall is certainty

[keen dome]

I still stand by fuu's suggestion of "put blades combie gen into dance" do it, blizz, it'd be funny and cool.

[vale pine]

e.g. it is easier to be positive about uncertain consequences

[finite carbon]

While yes it was the most successful one in terms of what blizzard set out to do

[fickle sundial]

ya that’s whats crazy

[alpine wraith]

i mean it used to be like that going from backstab to ambush

[finite carbon]

It def wasn’t a good direction they went to

[vale pine]

if you know the company is actively trying to improve the game

[alpine wraith]

you doubled your cp gain

now you have so many cps and energy

you are like oh

[fickle sundial]

like half their buttons are some rly good utility

half of their 12 whole buttons

[finite carbon]

Idk

[fickle sundial]

it’s not shaman level but it’s nice

[finite carbon]

I think sub is gonna be okay in the end

[vale pine]

yes

subtlety will be okay

[finite carbon]

It’s just a lot of the excessive dooming seems somewhat unwarranted

[vale pine]

it will be slightly better in m+ because you don't need to hold your cooldowns

[vale lagoon]

ehhhhhh that's a strange sentiment in a MMO haha

[vale pine]

it will on most figths be equal

[vale lagoon]

there IS no end

[alpine wraith]

you can once again bug out supercharger to do prepulls

[vale pine]

because we have 90 sec cooldowns

just similar to curently

[alpine wraith]

wonder how long they take to fix that one

[keen dome]

It'll be fixed on patch day, I'm sure.

[alpine wraith]

oh and it also works with sec tech tier set bug

[vale pine]

it will get worse in other things

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

like heroic/normal raids

[vale lagoon]

everyone goes through cycles of ups and downs but the amount of bugs recently is a little monkaS

[alpine wraith]

so you can get 5 upgraded finishers on pull

and because we ignore snd

[vale lagoon]

???????????

[alpine wraith]

that one is so funny

[vale pine]

or maybe the burst damage you can do in small intervals

[vale lagoon]

what

WHAT

[finite carbon]

Sub still a burst class in raids so

[vale pine]

btw.

[finite carbon]

Not like it’s gonna be completely dead in that game mode

[vale pine]

@alpine wraith did you look at er cp resetting on pull?

[alpine wraith]

it does not

right now

[vale pine]

perfect

[vale lagoon]

let's be honest man, raid in and of itself is a dead mode

[vale pine]

we migth want to use that

[alpine wraith]

but i havent tried real bosses that are RAID

cant even get into lfr in ptr

[vale lagoon]

it exists for a few pieces of BiS for each class, and then it's M+ all the way baby!

[vale pine]

my thought is, for the opener

[alpine wraith]

so even if it does not work for raids still doing it in m+ is quite interesting

[finite carbon]

I like raid logging weekly than doing keys

I’m sorry but m+ this season sucks gigA balls

[vale pine]

we might need the extra charges to make it work

[alpine wraith]

many dungeons you can just SoD while shit happens

[fickle sundial]

this season is ass

[alpine wraith]

yea i have been playing with 3 charges

[finite carbon]

I’m convinced there’s no one in existence that will actively go

[fickle sundial]

ive heard soooo many players, good and bad, that say this season sucks

[finite carbon]

“OH BOY DAWNBREAKER MY FAVORITE DUNGEON!”

[vale lagoon]

nah dawnbreaker is actually fine

[alpine wraith]

i actually like dawnbreaker more than mists now

to do weekly 10s

[fickle sundial]

idm db but fuck wake and grim

[short radish]

yeah dawnbreaker is kinda chill

[finite carbon]

Change dawnbreaker to

Mists

[vale lagoon]

it's AK last boss and NW

[short radish]

for some reason i enjoy stonecore

[vale lagoon]

jesus

[finite carbon]

Nw

[vale lagoon]

those

[finite carbon]

Or

[short radish]

except for last boss

[finite carbon]

Grim

[fickle sundial]

i don’t mind stone vault at all

[keen dome]

Dawnbreaker owns

[alpine wraith]

every stonevault i've gone 10

[vale lagoon]

and SV too

[finite carbon]

Or siege

[alpine wraith]

we have died so many times

[short radish]

oh yeah stonevault sorry

[fickle sundial]

siege is literally free

[short radish]

lmao yeah it's a punishing dungeon

[vale lagoon]

...siege is fine lol, doable just frustrating

[short radish]

but timer is hella free

[finite carbon]

You get the point

[fickle sundial]

only challenging part of the dungeon is the banana monkeys

[finite carbon]

Shit season

[vale lagoon]

timed it on 11 testing ds build

and pulling 1 mil dps flat

lmao

[fickle sundial]

you think this season is gonna be bad?

wait for the other 4 TWW dungeons

the kobold dungeons with the candles

[short radish]

no

[vale lagoon]

oof

[short radish]

do not remind me

of that instance

[finite carbon]

Someone in a blizzard meeting unironically suggested bringing shadowlands dungeons back

[short radish]

im quitting in S2

[finite carbon]

And didn’t bring back the tolerable ones

[keen dome]

I tried to time a +6 Siege today and it was a magical adventure.

[fickle sundial]

the priory where the last room is NOTHING but fucking AoE consecrations

[finite carbon]

Some how

[short radish]

can you please stop talking

holy shit

[fickle sundial]

Priory is going to be hell on earth for melee

[short radish]

why are you bringing this up

[vale lagoon]

ngl they do seem to be struggling way more than normal this expac

[short radish]

i dont want to think about it

at all

[vale lagoon]

that whole guild bank fiasco my god

[short radish]

my gtfo just BLASTING my ears

[alpine wraith]

yea priory and darkflame cleft will be painful

[finite carbon]

Church dungeon

[fickle sundial]

[vale lagoon]

scary to think about such a big fuckup

[short radish]

i dip one pinky toe

GUESS I'LL JUST DIE

[finite carbon]

With who the fuck knows what they’re bringing back as m+ dungeons

Who knows might be a banger

[short radish]

the consc damage needs to be nerfed by like 80%

[finite carbon]

We’ll see kings rests come back maybe

[keen dome]

I don't see how Darkflame is gonna go live in M+ as is. I hope the final bit gets changed but, oh no

[short radish]

same with timer as well

[finite carbon]

Or better

[honest basin]

STONEVAULT M+

[vale lagoon]

waycrest without the obelisks lol

[finite carbon]

We’ll see undermines come back as a new m+

[short radish]

BREAK YOURSELF UPON MY BODY

[fickle sundial]

cinderbrew is gonna be hype tho

[short radish]

FEEL THE STRENGTH OF THE EARTH

[honest basin]

So I speak so shall it be done 🙏

[finite carbon]

Now that they’re timewalking avaliable

[fickle sundial]

Pulls in CB are gonna be so fun

[honest basin]

THIS guy fuckin gets it

[fickle sundial]

Rookery isn’t bad either

But the other two?

[vale lagoon]

oh what's that snake dungeon with the orbs btw

that's gonna be fun for pugs

[keen dome]

NO

[vale lagoon]

from bfa?

[teal coral]

yeh but like idk what people want at this point lowkey. supercharger is good, dust removal is good, but then I'm told changes are giga bad super doom and I'm like okay why though? "oh cause bugs and the base of the spec is in shambles", well okay so then the patch is good? "no the patch sucks", but the changes are good? "yes but they're not enough and they aren't talking about it", okay but why does the patch suck then? Fuu even said earlier that the changes are good so like idk

It just goes in circles at that point. Yes, sub baseline kinda blows and nothing lining up sucks and having a million cooldowns that each do nothing and need to be micromanaged and stacks and cdr blows and deathstalker blows and trickster blows and bugs blow. It's more than the other two specs, yes. But you know what else blows? Trickster and deathstalker on the other specs, or the fact that all the specs are somehow cosplaying as outlaw rogue blade flurry aoe, or roll the bones being a disaster bloated button with supercharger slapped on it and rtb on cooldown how is KIR supposed to exist with that, or fucking killing spree nonsense in 2024.

like idk I just don't get why we're super dooming when it ends up being just "we're in the worst spot out of the rogues and need fixing". It just feels like the doom does not nearly match the actual problem the spec has, which we can all agree will take multiple patch cycles to iron out and fix up because they're so core to the spec. And like I get no communication or whatever sucks but I doubt even blizzard has more than a rough idea right? Like if they knew all the changes they wanted to do to fix sub cooldowns, they would just do them and add them into the patch or whatever, at some point they have to stop cooking and just deliver what they have and cook for the next patch but like I've seen worse, the changes help in m+, 0.5 probably brings tuning and if sub sucks real bad in raids it'll get tuned and then we see what happens in 11.1 and it'll be aight

[vale pine]

kings rest?

[teal coral]

rant over

me go back to bed

[honest basin]

Lmao temple of sethraliss

[keen dome]

NOOO

[vale lagoon]

yeah this

[fickle sundial]

im rly hype for the time walking dungeons in the anniversary

[vale lagoon]

imagine the padding we'll get to do

IF we get our aoe fixed by then

[keen dome]

Don't mention the cursed dungeons name lest you manifest it

[fickle sundial]

as someone who played original vanilla when they were like 9 Westfall and deadmines are such nostalgia traps for me

[teal coral]

feels very much like an exsang removal situation for assa, but for sub

[vale pine]

just a simple answer what subtlety wants:
Changes that make sense and feel complete

[teal coral]

yeh good luck with that in this game

[vale pine]

give people a reason to be excited about the spec

or even to play it

the spec changes too much

[alpine wraith]

man temple of sethraliss would go so hard

[vale pine]

and what its good in one patch

suddenly dissapears

[alpine wraith]

to be bugged again after so long

WHERE IS THE BALL

[vale pine]

and i am not even talking about dusz

[keen dome]

We still don't have a Poison toggle 😦

[vale pine]

dust

but 10.2 made a lot of bad changes in that direction

a very simple thing to observe is aoe

the rotation was memed as simple

[jaunty umbra]

whispyr pasta

[vale pine]

but people went from being able to do keys on sub easy and somewhat compete in dps

to just getting completely destroyed

with only like a hand full of player even able to get the spec to work

[vale lagoon]

one more issue tho, i saw some ppl in here earlier talking about the extra symbols/shiv charge node

and saying that it's mathematically bad for sub?

i think that's also something that upsets ppl

[vale pine]

this isn't the norm, and as such it stands out

[teal coral]

I'll agree with that

I can't defend shadow rupture

[vale pine]

and it is a repeating pattern

[alpine wraith]

well yea it is bad but it is what you will have

so use it to its fullest(bug)

fuck i dont know how to write

[finite carbon]

Ten bucks says that the majority of doomers will become bloomers if sub was gigA buffed

[alpine wraith]

they would first need to know spec exists

we dont even have doomers they just leave

most you can see is armin eleem fuu and me joke around sometimes

[honest basin]

Kinda true frfr

[vale pine]

like ofc

[alpine wraith]

but in 2 days all bugs are fixed for sure

[vale pine]

you can rationalize and downplay it

[alpine wraith]

or at least 1

[vale pine]

but sub is still the least played spec in the game

and you can find many reasons why that is

and maybe 11.1 fixes it

maybe 11.2

or 12.0

[finite carbon]

I mean

[vale pine]

but without any direction, any communication

[finite carbon]

Spec played statistics usually boil down to one important thing

[vale lagoon]

i think this channel turns into an orgy if they jsut fix flurry lmao

[vale pine]

is it better to just say

[finite carbon]

Is it flashy?

[vale lagoon]

literally just updae a value in game

[vale pine]

"changes are great"

"we love it"

[finite carbon]

No? Then the player base isn’t interested in it

Second is

[vale lagoon]

ehhhhhhh isn't windwalker pretty flashy with legit shadow clone jutsu stuff

and the giant rider kick

[teal coral]

idk, if the changes are good you can just say it's good

[finite carbon]

And it’s decently popular

[vale pine]

yes

supercharger: good

[finite carbon]

Dh is also flashy and it’s popular

[vale pine]

cttc passive good

[finite carbon]

Paladin is giga flashy and it’s stupid popular

[vale lagoon]

oh mb then, i thought i saw some m+ metrics where ww is super underplayed as well haha

[vale pine]

so chanegs are a move in the right direction

[lilac stag]

Visuals on rogue would help bring over more casual players.

Tuning & Gameplay / how krangled it is usually effects discord enjoyers more.

[finite carbon]

Spec popularity very much reliant on whether or not the spec has visuals

And rogue

Doesn’t

[vale lagoon]

has none yeah haha

[vale pine]

rogue in general has other issues too

[jaunty umbra]

for casuals yes

[vale pine]

btw. @teal coral i am completely with you outlaw has also some long standing problems in need of attention

[finite carbon]

Yep

[teal coral]

there's no use dooming over stuff that might or might not happen or could be addressed or not addressed the same as it's not helpful to try and cope that it's going to be the best thing in 11.1 or 11.2 or some point in the future. I personally have faith in the cooking but I recognize that it's entirely just based on pure cope. All I have to realistically act upon is whats in front of me, and the changes in front of me are totally fine

[lilac stag]

Trying to decipher wtf you’re supposed to do on sub as a new or average player? Good luck.

[finite carbon]

Doesn’t matter

Give casuals visuals and they’ll gush over the spec

[alpine wraith]

well changes are idk changes rn

[final cedar]

The current problem with Subtlety is that without the two essential talents, Shadow Blades and Flagellation, its performance drops back to what it was in previous expansions.
Also, Invigorating Shadowdust is a really problematic talent.
It feels like all of Subtlety's potential is being suppressed because of this talent.
It's going away in the next patch, but I'm worried that the rework might actually result in worse performance than before.

[finite carbon]

That’s how you make a spec gain popularity end of the day

[honest basin]

Me post rework after playing sub in aberrus

[vale pine]

i am certain its fine

[alpine wraith]

dmg will be the same or a bit worse

[vale pine]

e.g. a nice thing or bad thing depending on who you ask

[alpine wraith]

but now you lose the bosses you were decent

[vale lagoon]

i feel like that's not a very kind take tbh. I think in the grand scheme of things, there are very few instances where players have the ability to do things that isn't "no use". So we take the next best thing, which is to be sad together and banter a bit

[alpine wraith]

so now with undertuned st thx to bugs

[vale pine]

prophet earlier mentioned that people port out and switch specs

[alpine wraith]

you become a non played spec at all

[finite carbon]

Let’s not pretend a specs difficulty gate keeps a spec from being popular when every bingus and goober just wants eye candy. Hence why no mover demon hunter players exist

[vale pine]

this is a good thing because it means that specs have deisgn diffrences

where switching can actually become a interestsing option

e.g. in this case for trickster dust sub

[finite carbon]

Kk I sleep now

[teal coral]

honestly losing the decent specs might actually be a good thing cause then sub is in line for buffs and then all the bosses become decent

[finite carbon]

It’s 5am

[alpine wraith]

yea i live in the present

[lilac stag]

I’ll doom over the current list of shit they ain’t fixing and the overall ignoring of the spec.

[alpine wraith]

that is why im going to use all the NEW bugs that get introduced

with our boi supercharger

what a day to be alive

[vale pine]

i don't udnerstand why we didn't sticked to 1 min flag

[fickle sundial]

they’ll fix it asap duh :>

[vale pine]

because it would have solved more problems

[alpine wraith]

getting ready to drop some rhymes

[vale pine]

if a rework was in the works

could have been a better baseline

[lilac stag]

as much as I enjoy Sub I’m not going to bang my head against a wall when I can just swap over to assa and chill

[vale pine]

the flag change feels like a step back

[alpine wraith]

and also tell my rl 20 sec pull is back in the house

[vale pine]

to keep the spec as is

instead

[vale lagoon]

(pls just get rid of flag entirely and give us a new cd)

[vale pine]

and i am not saying this is a negative

[alpine wraith]

what i love about assa is that it just flows so well from putting bleeds to doing dmg later

[lilac stag]

What’s the new cd?

[alpine wraith]

sub is use 5 cds over the course of 6 secs

[vale pine]

i just feel like i am not following why it was changed

[lilac stag]

don’t just ask for shit to get taken out without an actual thought to replace it.

[alpine wraith]

in a PARTICULAR ORDER

[finite carbon]

God I was like that again

1min ret profile shadowlands was bis

[vale lagoon]

neat little thing called shadow dance, you might have heard of it

[teal coral]

I mean reacting to changes and giving feedback has use, the disconnect to me is just that the feedback to changes has been overly negative, even though if you really talk about the changes everyone can kinda get behind them as generally good. The doom comes from intangible feelings not related to the actual changes. That's the useless part

[vale lagoon]

except this one deals dmg

[teal coral]

yeh idk either, I guess lines up = good

[honest basin]

Sub feels like a more convoluted havoc dh which is saying something bc good god havoc's stacking of 4 second damage windows is insanity

[teal coral]

or prep to cook for 11.1

no idea

[finite carbon]

Build 5, seraphim, wings, fr, es, dt, wake

Gosh

Take me back

[vestal escarp]

11.1

[alpine wraith]

well the thing is they kinda left it at like 1/5 of power level of changes then called it a day from what we know

so what you get is what you have now

so now you enjoy bugging out supercharger

to get some more dps

[lilac stag]

They can tune dance without removing flag. Likewise they can also tune flag.

[alpine wraith]

or tune nothing

and nerf blades

[lilac stag]

mmhm

Buff Bp more

[tribal blade]

i think it's several tiers worth of frustration building up

[alpine wraith]

true

[vale lagoon]

oh yes, "the changes" are numerically mostly good for sure, supercharge + no dust = 2 Ws, death perception = 1 L. BUT bugfixes I believe should be prioritized, so in that sense any change is inherently not the most optimal course of action

[vale pine]

some changes have potential for overall worse gameplay too

[honest basin]

Bp in single target when

[tribal blade]

and several years of bad iterations building up

[lilac stag]

Clearly BP is our savior

[vale pine]

dust solved some of the other problems

[final cedar]

If I can use 3 Shadow Dances and 2 Symbols of Death in a single pull without relying on strong cooldowns, I think the damage output will still be good even without the two powerful cooldown abilities. I'm looking forward to that part.

[alpine wraith]

i still find funny we have no evis talents

in our whole tree

like ONLY evis

[vale pine]

e.g. cooldownreduction of shadow dance was too heavily restricted in 10.2

[vale lagoon]

but dance and shadow blades are both just more pleasant buttons than flag for me haha, i guess i'm just a hater

[lilac stag]

wait you want Evis to do dmg?

[alpine wraith]

it is that funny we even skip finality

[teal coral]

sub has more rupture talents than assa

[honest basin]

^

[lilac stag]

and more rupture dmg

[alpine wraith]

it has 1

[vestal escarp]

erm

false?

[lilac stag]

Go dot spec go

[vale pine]

^ which means blades changing from 20->16 does lead to problems potentially

[alpine wraith]

only rupture is 1 everything else is generic pasta

[teal coral]

yeah I guess sbs being "a rupture talent" now

[hazy breach]

While i mostly agree i dont think the changes will lead to people having more fun with the spec, even though theyre mostly good changes

Having to do naked symbols just blows

[tribal blade]

massive design flaws

[alpine wraith]

dont worry just bug out supercharger

[hazy breach]

And not getting two good sectechs during blades also blows

[tribal blade]

that just aren't getting fixed

[alpine wraith]

so you get extra cp value

and coup too

[teal coral]

rupture on assa is legit just a button they bolt extra effects onto

[vale lagoon]

crazy idea: they don't reduce blades duration, buff it and fix its bugs instead, and then delete flag

[alpine wraith]

yea rupture is funny as assa

[vale lagoon]

oh god i feel so obsessive

im sorry

[vale pine]

overloaded ye, and as such sadly fairly week alone

[alpine wraith]

it is like a stimpack

[vale lagoon]

i just hate flag so much

[alpine wraith]

gives energy agi if talent applies sbs if talented

enables spatter

idk does the dishes and sends emails to your boss

[fickle sundial]

It’s ok u to flag is me to bte/RTB on otl

[honest basin]

It gives energy, combo points, makes poisons hit harder with tier set, hell it even stacks our hero talents!

[teal coral]

what do we do with rupture, ideas ideas lets see, uh make it give energy, and then make it give agi%, and then also make it send bone spikes for cp yeah yeah good what else? what about applying spatter? yeah this is great, more ideas for rupture, what else

how bout just making it do damage?

fire that mfer

[vestal escarp]

i agree it's underpowered but assa has 5 interaction with it

[final cedar]

But why did Rupture return to Subtlety in Legion, and why did Slice and Dice become a mandatory skill? Slice and Dice doesn't fit Subtlety's class fantasy at all, and I feel like Rupture used to be called Shadow Blades, not Rupture. Does anyone know the reason?

[lilac stag]

iconic spell

[short radish]

night blade

well

[lilac stag]

just reverted shadow version

[short radish]

rupture -> nightblade -> back to rupture

[tribal blade]

isn't sin doing the literal top dps in keys right now

[vale lagoon]

oh yeah now that i think about it, blizz DOES seem to have a thing against straight damage buffs, huh

[vale pine]

just remove everything and carnage and let assassiantion tab target rupture for nuclear damage

[fickle sundial]

it’s rly good in AoE ye

[alpine wraith]

unless your name is mage

[honest basin]

Idk is it

[short radish]

thought its fdk

[charred sandal]

if they make rupture go back to nightblade they for sure have to rework dark brew

[alpine wraith]

then all the % buffs

[short radish]

sin is defs strong in keys though

[teal coral]

I'll trade you carnage for replicating

[barren wolf]

YOU SIR JUST COOKED

[vale pine]

can we convince realz to increase replicating range?

[vale lagoon]

do they also go back to exsanguinate

haha

[final cedar]

yeah night blade

[vale pine]

[grizzled hornet]

this is a must

[teal coral]

honestly though like if they swapped sub and assa rupture, would both specs be happier for it?

[honest basin]

Probably

[barren wolf]

sure i liked 45 sec exsang

[vale lagoon]

with 75% haste！

[barren wolf]

i didnt play that

[vale lagoon]

go bfa!

[teal coral]

sub gets scent of blood carnage ruptures from stealth

[vale pine]

not sure, think people overall don't like to press it

[teal coral]

assa gets replicating and big rupture nukes

[grizzled hornet]

bfa vibes?

[teal coral]

idk seems gud man

[final cedar]

Nightblade would interact well with the current Subtlety talents, but the dev team is so dumb lol

[fickle sundial]

rupture doesn’t feel good to press as sub ye

[teal coral]

yeah I can see that

[lilac stag]

It wouldn’t. None of the shadow dmg amps ever seem to work correctly.

[fickle sundial]

feels out of place

[honest basin]

It's okay it doesn't feel good to press as assa either

[fickle sundial]

hahaha

[vale pine]

it was an interessting concept

[grizzled hornet]

I rly wish nightblade was back with the current sub, it would stomp but sub is not about multi doting tho is it?

[vale pine]

but ditched

its complicated

[final cedar]

That’s kind of sad but also funny at the same time lol

[vale pine]

nightblade would nerf finality

[lilac stag]

sub and dots, should be hemo and that’s it

[vale pine]

and dark shadows

[tribal blade]

i miss hemo, i'm with you there

such a cool button

[teal coral]

okie dokie boomer

[vale pine]

🚪 👈

[honest basin]

LMAO

[grizzled hornet]

oh hemo would be fire

[lilac stag]

give me an aoe cd to spread hemo

[honest basin]

Toasted

[teal coral]

hemo

[vale pine]

its caleld garrote

also wrong spec

[teal coral]

I've been asking for sub multistrike since legion man

wrong agony

[alpine wraith]

any day now

[teal coral]

[honest basin]

LMAOOOO

[alpine wraith]

tbh i loved the rupture shortening

[tribal blade]

the multistrike playstyle with rupture was legit fun

[alpine wraith]

they could bring it back with evis or bp

[tribal blade]

i miss that too

[vale pine]

shadowcraft and shadow techniques are not enough obfuscation...

[teal coral]

yeah well I don't want sub multistrike on sub

[alpine wraith]

every time i asked scarizard or realz i got told it was cool but they had no plans to bring it back

[tribal blade]

cowards

[alpine wraith]

tbh i want super chaos

[teal coral]

sub needs less dots not more

[alpine wraith]

let WM wm everything

[short radish]

💯

[vale pine]

rupture is fine tbh

[short radish]

why the fuck does sub have to dot

[honest basin]

Make gloomblade baseline

[lilac stag]

It’s not

[vale pine]

i think its good enough for its purpose

[alpine wraith]

let that 0.01% pull happen

[tribal blade]

i agree with that, i'm kind of over tab targeting 20 mobs in a pull to spread rupture

[short radish]

if i wanted to dot i'd play assi or affi

[alpine wraith]

where you krangle all sec techs

and double them

[vale pine]

to make the spec use something else than evis

[lilac stag]

Spreading that shit in m+ is shit

[teal coral]

what happened to this btw

why can't we have nice things

[alpine wraith]

too op in pvp

[vale lagoon]

oh i know i know

[alpine wraith]

cant have those

[vale lagoon]

this turned into akaari's soul

[alpine wraith]

pvp spec remember

[grizzled hornet]

yeah but currently if you dont apply ruptures which do tons of dmg and you get fucked with spreading u do no dmg

[vale pine]

isn't that akaaris sould kinda

whats secret tech now

[vale lagoon]

which then turned into secret techniques, which is now bugged with everything!

[vale pine]

🙈

[teal coral]

I mean yeah it turned into akaaris

[alpine wraith]

nope it was super busted in pvp

[vale lagoon]

isn't it lovely!

[teal coral]

but like

just give that back

[lilac stag]

Just like the current shit

[vale pine]

[alpine wraith]

shadowy duel has 20% of the power reflection had

you could kidney and blind people

[charred sandal]

more shadow stuff on sub i agree

[alpine wraith]

and it just got trinket protection

because if they did they got ccd again

[teal coral]

give back shadow reflect and death from above and uhhhh soul capacitor to replace the left side of sub tree

im cooking

[grizzled hornet]

cook more

[alpine wraith]

capacitator is mage thing i was so sad

[honest basin]

I'm ngl

[alpine wraith]

every time casters stealing the good shit

[lilac stag]

will we get a 90 second agility trinket in the next raid tier?

[honest basin]

I'm a sub enjoyer but not a sub knower so I'll let y'all do the cooking here, I will stay out the kitchen

[alpine wraith]

likely we still use transmitter

unless they nerf it

[lilac stag]

Until they nerf it

[alpine wraith]

same with spymasters

[honest basin]

I'll just end up saying some shit like let sub use warglaives

[teal coral]

11.1 sub rogue rework will add a button that turns 2 min trinkets into 90 second trinkets to line up with the 90 second cds don't worry

[vale pine]

eon would be a good thing tbh

[lilac stag]

Can we call it trinket dust?

[vale pine]

instead of rotten

[teal coral]

oh yeah eon

slap that in there

[honest basin]

It hate the rotten

Fk that talent

[vale pine]

dfa is secret now

[teal coral]

everyone hates the rotten you're not special bro

[honest basin]

Thank god

[lilac stag]

I’d like to store 16 cps plus shadowcraft.

[honest basin]

I was worried I might offend someone

[vale lagoon]

...i'd like to not have shadowcraft lol

[vale pine]

think pvpers like it

[teal coral]

I ctrl+f'd "like rotten" and banned everyone that popped up

[vale lagoon]

i didn't think anything could feel worse than rng combo point, i was wrong

[lilac stag]

shadowcraft can take a walk

[vale lagoon]

into a burning hosue maybe?

[honest basin]

Actually out here doing god's work

[lilac stag]

Evis dmg when

[teal coral]

even more reason to get rid of it

[vale lagoon]

actually tho legit just replace flag with a 3rd self-buff that doubles our mastery or some shit

[honest basin]

Didn't they make that illegal

[vale lagoon]

evisc dmg achieved

[teal coral]

pvp lately has been a great litmus test for good/bad changes

if they ask for something

[vale pine]

btw. did you see the new rework to the first dance?

[teal coral]

you do the opposite

[vale pine]

if you thought re-stealths are bad

[teal coral]

I have

[vale pine]

the talent is restealths but worse

[teal coral]

they burnt that cook

[vale lagoon]

OH YEAH

wait @teal coral my friend we have to redo the math on "the changes" now haha

[honest basin]

If it was really gonna be the first dance it should just make your first dance last forever

Ez fix

[lilac stag]

We need more useless spec talents or pvp only talents in the spec tree.

[vale lagoon]

super charge + delete dust = good, death perception + tfd = bad

[vale pine]

shadowlands flashbacks

[vale lagoon]

they're 2 to 2

we can only say the changes are mid now!

oh no

[alpine wraith]

funny thing if the first dance works from raid boss vanish

using vanish and not doing anything for 6 secs

might be a win

[vale lagoon]

double vanish + nelf mandatory?

i dig it

[honest basin]

I hate that so much more than I could ever describe in english

[alpine wraith]

nelf never works on raid or boss combat

[fierce ivy]

cant go nelf into restealth in raid combat

[lilac stag]

There is no win in this

[vale lagoon]

ah rip

but m+！

[alpine wraith]

there are some m+ where it could be played yea

but idk

the power is not that much anyway

would be cool if it have +1 dance charge

instead of 50% longer dance

[vale lagoon]

nah

dance should stay 1 charge

and just be giga dmg

on its own

[alpine wraith]

blizz has said in several situations they dont want sub to burst like it had

so that is never happening

[lilac stag]

And how are you doing dmg in keys?

[alpine wraith]

they even split all our dmg to make crit rng be worse

[vale lagoon]

wait u mean burst like df season 1?

[alpine wraith]

our burst is nothing like it was

our "burst" is like a dh or enchance getting some procs

and they burst 50% higher than us

[vale lagoon]

ah i see, that's mb

[alpine wraith]

in MoP/WoD and cata we had venthyr moonkin lvls of oh boi IT IS COMIN

[vale lagoon]

but basically i meant 1 dance build with about 25~30% dance uptime, and just all of its dmg baked into dance itself

[alpine wraith]

to make a recent parallel

[vale lagoon]

not necessarily super bursty compared to other classes

[honest basin]

Dh burst is actually wild, it's insane to me that like they're just allowed to do that on a 30 second CD

[lilac stag]

Realz plays havoc.

[honest basin]

Yeah that plays

[lilac stag]

Well did last tier.

[alpine wraith]

ion plays rshaman

concidence?¿!

[lilac stag]

That unironically used to be the reason they were shit (supposedly)

[honest basin]

Havoc dh actually kinda sick, would be cool if sub felt kinda like that with dance but eh.

Sub still fun. My go to RN for court and queen

[charred sandal]

dh is fun until inertia forces u to commit crimes on mechanic

[honest basin]

I haven't really had trouble with inertia outside of just not really knowing how far fel rush goes since I'm kinda new to havoc

I've fallen off a cliff like twice so far, once bc I thought I could vr/fel blade in the hole in p3 ansurek

But pathing cuz felblade is a charge kek

[charred sandal]

put a finger down if u have dashed to ur falling death on dawnbreaker boat

[vale lagoon]

how about just falling to ur death bcuz u glitch thru the boat lol

[charred sandal]

that too lmao

if u land on the captain cabin thingy u just phase thru the mf

[vale lagoon]

it's actually insane

how many bugs there are this expac

plus the guild bank thing

i feel like blizz is rly having a hard time this year

[charred sandal]

cant be as hard as shadowlands or wod

[vale lagoon]

acquisition rly messing them up huh

[alpine wraith]

nah the guild bank one is super sad

they thanos snapped billions of gold and mats

then just said unlucky

[honest basin]

That was the second time lmao

[lilac stag]

Market manipulation by the hedgies

[vale lagoon]

legit tho

i can't imagine messing up like that

[honest basin]

My rl showed a post by someone who had lost some copies of in-game letters from a friend that had passed they kept in their personal gbank that got deleted

THAT shit was sad as fuck.

[vale lagoon]

yeah idk

this is a rough year for them

kinda sucks that tww is mostly great gameplay wise, just so many technical issues

[tribal blade]

it's like a jenga tower of adding on more and more code

to already spaghetti code

[honest basin]

I told one of my buddies that overall the xpac is fantastic and A+ in my book

[tribal blade]

yeah i prefer this expac to DF

[honest basin]

But there's so many little things that drag it down from what could be genuinely one of, if not the best xpac ever

The constant bugs, the performance issues, the weird-ass tuning of things(lookin at you, delves)

[vale lagoon]

df was them testing the waters with so many things

[honest basin]

It's still a great xpac, just stained enough that it still generates frustration despite being fun and cool

[vale lagoon]

THIS is them hitting the ground running

except they tripped and broke both their ankles on the technical side

rip

[honest basin]

Yeah. I hope they get it the fuck together. I understand that theyre adding so much complexity with hero talents and all on the technical side but damn man. Just keep it in beta for longer next time lol

[short radish]

people have been asking blizzard to reduce inflation

🙂

[sweet condor]

are the 11.0.5 ptr changes slated to be buffs or nerfs to sub ?

[vale pine]

neither rly

seemingly just aim to keep it in the current position

positive consequences:

• no more snd keybind
• New talent
• potential small buff for mythic+ because we don't need to hold flagellation for 30 seconds each time
  negative consequences:
• worse/less defensives
• forced into 90 sec cooldowns from having talents to decide
• even more dead talents
• potential worse gameplay
• likely worse burst damage

[short radish]

im just copium that we're going to be overtuned damage wise somehow

finally got to play sub again on princess

and i was just swapping between it and assi the entire night

sub just feels so much comfier on ST

[patent crystal]

How are we looking if they fix bugs with 11.0.5?

[lilac stag]

comfier? Nah. More engaging? I’d give ya that

[golden totem]

On mythic ? It's a pain to play sub

[short radish]

yeah i'm probably gonna mald and swap back to sin when i need to press feint off cooldown

but ST as sub just feels so comfy

press damage buttons in order

k go next 25 seconds later

[golden totem]

So annoying to delay ur cds cause you might get targeted in a few seconds

While in sin u just payphone

[short radish]

yeah

[vale pine]

i just don't think of that as a long term solution

[short radish]

will see how bad the targetting is

[hazy breach]

Cant really delay a few seconds anyway

Because then you lose a cast later on

[short radish]

i just send sectech as first global if i get targetted

so cds dont get fucked

[patent crystal]

Yeah need to send on cd, even if it means u get less optimal use

[golden totem]

I just take the dps loss rather than greeding some cast

[bleak wind]

is feint staight up not on the gcd on ptr or just doesn't trigger it

[vestal escarp]

Not on gcd anymore

[golden totem]

Whats the less defensive part

[short radish]

cloak on 2min instead of 1.5

[hazy breach]

Soothing only works on vanish

And cloak/evasion longer cd

[short radish]

did soothing even do anything?

[vestal escarp]

Healed you quite a bit

[alpine wraith]

quite a bit

last dung

[short radish]

wait will we be able to take 200 energy on patch?

[golden totem]

Oh yeah they did nerf soothing

[short radish]

or still no

[alpine wraith]

yes

[hazy breach]

Probably no

[alpine wraith]

or wait no

[short radish]

remember the days where you just sit in stealth and you get healed

[vestal escarp]

Vigor is doodoo

[short radish]

fuck i miss that so much

so good for levelling

[alpine wraith]

yea man old soothing