yeah..removing shadowdust absolutely feels like the monkey's paw curled. seemingly nothing in return, but you get "smoother gameplay". as if pressing vanish every 1.5 minutes was a struggle. idk
#subtlety
hazy breach
Ye now you should be worried about double sectech
uneven scarab
Ye now you should be worried about double sectech
Why should i be worried 
fallow nimbus
The 1min flag iteration made more sense with the new sod talent
hazy breach
Deathstalker has a hard time getting 2 of during blades
Unless its the first gcd and then the second hits like last gcd of the second dance
Since blades is only 16 you cant delay the second dance 4 seconds like DB used to
uneven scarab
we’re cooked
uneven scarab
Fuck it just make dance reduce cd’s now 
idk how we get out of this krangled
nonsense
hazy breach
And we still need to send a naked symbols
Because not enough dance cdr most of the time
crisp lion
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
fallow nimbus
I legit believe some dev or higher up pointed out that 1min flag was too similar to assa (maybe even too good) so they changed it to 1.5min blades
uneven scarab
I legit believe some dev or higher up pointed out that 1min flag was too similar...
Well most of us did as well
Flag at 1 min really just makes us worse assa
fallow nimbus
But was it worse?
hazy breach
Wasn’t ptr showing -6%?
PTR sims arent really working
Tea is scuffed and ER is scuffed
fallow nimbus
1.5min is a lot worse, maybe not pure dmg wise but playstyle will suffer a lot
hazy breach
For the most part its just DB but with 90s instead of 120s
Which is a buff compared to pre-0.5 db
uneven scarab
1.5 min is a good niche tbh
ebon tiger
1.5 is good. just make more than 1 trinket for us 
uneven scarab
True
Not a SINGLE dungeon trinket at 1.5 mins for us
but they can make them for str users
fallow nimbus
Not many 1.5min specs
ebon tiger
on the real, why design trinkets for one of the least played specs/classes in the game in retail
uneven scarab
wdym
fallow nimbus
But blizz isn't that simple
hazy breach
The 4 dungeons next season doesnt have any 90s ones, but the only 120s it has is the priory one, which is not good
fallow nimbus
I think trinkets should have agi/int and str/agi
uneven scarab
It is looking more and more bleak
uneven scarab
I think trinkets should have agi/int and str/agi
USUALLY they do
fallow nimbus
The generic ones have most of the time
hazy breach
2 min DB still probably wouldnt have wanted the priory one so its whatever
Just like it doesnt want skardyn much right now, and skardyn gives like 15% more stats than priory
ebon tiger
delves will probably have a new loot pool including trinkets. as brazen as it is to suggest a BIS trinket would come from a delve
fallow nimbus
I hope no delve trinket will ever be bis for any class
Also you think the delve loot pool will change?
ebon tiger
if something more deterministic and upgradeable came along for the delve system it wouldn't be terrible. I think the delve system is going to get changed heavily in s2 though
yes, I imagine the loot pool will change a bit
uneven scarab
I wouldn’t hate it
but it would upset me to have to farm delves and be perma unlucky
- the fact that you need to get them in ur gv
For high ilvl version
wispy pebble
ive seen a lot of logs where the sub rogues use rupture only once before they start trickster rota. Is that normal? I do 2-3 casts before i start bursting
uneven scarab
Depends if you think its worth it/the mobs will actually live thru your rupture and burst
wispy pebble
2-3 casts of rupture?
Trash mobs
light imp
unless they gonna survive for over 20 seconds, it aint worth casting rupture more than once
uneven scarab
I usually just judge on my groups damage, if you think youll get good value out if it its worth
Rupture hits hard
But you dont wanna rupture so much that you delay ur burst long enough so it gets wasted ofc
wispy pebble
i think i did rupture twice basically every time.. so Strike -> SnD -> storm, rupture -> storm, flag, rupture -> burst
light imp
if you're gonna do that might aswel flag before the first rupture
so you get extra stacks
uneven scarab
Rupture twice is what i do alot of the time
wispy pebble
I just checked if someone uploaded m+ logs and i did a 98 on stonevault 10 yesterday damn... AND I STILL DEALT NO DAMAGE
light imp
yeah if the mobs are gonna live then aboslutely
uneven scarab
I just checked if someone uploaded m+ logs and i did a 98 on stonevault 10 yeste...
Sub pov->99 parse, still below purple parsing shamans/dks 
wispy pebble
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8LcGhBWAfnXZwMR2#fight=52&type=summary
Look at this. im 97 the warr is 95 and he dealt 350k dps more hahaha
light imp
well you're looking at points, means you CC'd more than he did
if you look at damage specifically hes 97% you're 94
wispy pebble
Figures. He puts damage over mechanics in raid as well lmao
light imp
heh
cant get a pug for silken, can't get any tanks or heals to join my keys, cant even get a fresh pug
uugh
wispy pebble
my guild is kinda... log focused...
wispy pebble
cant get a pug for silken, can't get any tanks or heals to join my keys, cant ev...
well its late
light imp
shhh dont be using logic on me
So with the BP buff, can we run deathstalker on most fights now? pretty much run the SD Deathstalker build, trade out Swift death for imp shuriken storm and you'd have decent aoe with decent ST
uneven scarab
you can on ovinax for sure
Trickster ends up better for me on basically every other fight i feel
I also got aug simp+transmitter though
tribal blade
i just realized on silken court that we haven't had a sham for this entire alt normal guild run
NO SKYFURY
WHERE IS MY ENERGY
wispy bolt
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8LcGhBWAfnXZwMR2#fight=52&type=summary
Loo...
Jsyk no one logs dungeons so the data is garbage
ebon tiger
my guild is about to completely stop running heroic and I still don't have a transmitter
plush roost
So with the BP buff, can we run deathstalker on most fights now? pretty much run...
Trickster is better on every fight, except Sikran, Kyveza. Just due to how our timings and priority damage works. Brood, probably should still just play sin, but if not, trickster is better since you want to do damage to boss and cleave adds.
In heroic DS is probably fine. Less priority targets.
tardy badge
So like is sin just better then sub and outlaw atm? I'm seeing mixed opinions from people i know
Like im playing sub trickster in raid and m+ and its really fun
uneven scarab
Sin is very strong yes
hazy breach
Trickster is better on every fight, except Sikran, Kyveza. Just due to how our t...
Conversely to what you might expect trickster actually has less prio damage than deathstalker.
Trickster mostly does its singletarget rotation while cleaving, whereas deathstalker actually gains singletarget because each extra combo point from storm is more valueable (more mark+more darkest night) as well as singular focus
Like on ovinax, a deathstalker BP during parasites is gonna do more boss damage than a trickster eviscerate
Thats how messed up this spec is
uneven scarab
Mind blowing tbh
tribal blade
it's why sin is so good on ovinax
plain zephyr
Can someone confirm if I am understanding correctly with the "new" mythic + Deathstalker build.
During Shadow Dance in 2+ target scenario, your builder is Shuriken Storm. You do not press Shadowstrike, correct?
Also..... My AssAssination dungeon slice sim....
and my Sub dungeon slice sim.....
😭 😭 😭
fair stump
Conversely to what you might expect trickster actually has less prio damage than...
do you think we're playing trickster on M+ or we're sticking to deathstalker like the pin said?
losing dust seems hurtful...
pliant topaz
its a bigger loss to trickster than it is to deathstalker
atleast from a napkin math so..
light imp
is Heroic sikran a cheese/bloated log fight? nobody in my raid rn did higher than a 50% parse
even for ilvl
light imp
Can someone confirm if I am understanding correctly with the "new" mythic + Deat...
4+ you swap to shuriken 6+ you swap with SB up, thats how i do it anyways
with dance up, that is
you swap to BP with a 2+ target scenario with momentup up
teal night
Can someone confirm if I am understanding correctly with the "new" mythic + Deat...
I was wondering this exact thing
quasi cypress
If I am used to assassination and want to try sub for diveristy, what is there to expect and how would it play in keys ?
pliant topaz
Can someone confirm if I am understanding correctly with the "new" mythic + Deat...
on 2 targets you shadow strike
teal night
has anyone noticed that Deathstalker's mark is not being properly consumed ?
plain zephyr
Hmmmm... okay. On the WoWhead guide, it makes no mention of shadowstrike in multi-target during shadow dance.
light imp
If I am used to assassination and want to try sub for diveristy, what is there t...
a long transitionary period to get the feel, its a very big "blow load and wait for it to come back" feeling
quasi cypress
a long transitionary period to get the feel, its a very big "blow load and wait ...
Thanks 🙂
pliant topaz
its a weird scenario because FW exists
tribal blade
is Heroic sikran a cheese/bloated log fight? nobody in my raid rn did higher tha...
hate to say it, but might be skill issue
pliant topaz
like even on 7 targets, strike does more damage
but the issue becomes Combo poitns and find weakness
light imp
Hmmmm... okay. On the WoWhead guide, it makes no mention of shadowstrike in mul...
our finishers are 90% of our damage, use whichever builds more combo points, so usually around 3-4 you swap to shuriken, sicne SS gives 3, and with shadow blades Im pretty sure you still wait for 6 targets since storm doesnt give full cp
plain zephyr
What is FW again?
pliant topaz
find weakness
plain zephyr
ah yeah thanks
tribal blade
shadowed finishers needs to die in a fire
pliant topaz
previously we would strike in aoe for DM stack if it were to consume premed -> which would give us 5 cps
now, premed doesnt exist. but u can still strike until 3 targets ish / after that its not really worth it, mostly because youre dropping FW
that is for deathstalker
tribal blade
i miss the strike to consume premed in aoe
pliant topaz
is that deathstalker? that doesnt seem correct
unless youre doing prio target damage
plain zephyr
Yeah, it's on the deathstalker guide
pliant topaz
might be broken because you picked tornado then
for deathstalker, in multi target, you eviscerate to consume darkest night
when u get it
otherwise u bp
on 2+ targets
plain zephyr
Okay makes sense
tribal blade
i was taking a look at the wowhead guide, might need an update
sinful sluice
do you guys think it is worth taking DS in raids as well due to BP change?
i only tool DS for 3 and 7 before
took*
light imp
hate to say it, but might be skill issue
skill issue meanwhile most of the top damage logs for my item level are higher than my simmed DPS
pliant topaz
do you guys think it is worth taking DS in raids as well due to BP change?
it doesnt do anything better than trickster on the other ones really
teal night
when you have darkest night buff , and you reapply the deathstalkers mark using SS it does not properly consume stacks and bugs it.
sinful sluice
i see. thanks
teal night
but reapplying the mark using a full cp Evise works to unbug it
light imp
do you guys think it is worth taking DS in raids as well due to BP change?
no, because you have to sacrifice a good bit of ST to get reliable aoe damage, DS is better for consistant aoe over trickster if you spec for it, but without silent storm or imp shuriken storm its not worth it. Nimble flurry doesn't really require any set up
tribal blade
skill issue meanwhile most of the top damage logs for my item level are higher t...
could be you guys didn't have all raid buffs, that sometimes makes a big difference
but the last time my guild killed heroic sikran everyone except 2 dps got purple or higher parses
light imp
could be you guys didn't have all raid buffs, that sometimes makes a big differe...
most top parses are from early september. and wouldnt all raid buffs be included with the simmed dps?
tribal blade
most top parses are from early september. and wouldnt all raid buffs be included...
i don't understand why we're talking about simmed dps
for logs
if nobody on your kill got higher than a 50% parse could be ilvl, raid buffs, not doing rotations correctly, losing way too much uptime
light imp
ive only ever been around 90% of my simmed dps, it implies a "perfect" gameplay/rotation, unless there was something relative like a boss mechanic giving bonus damage, or a short fight where the higher burst plays a higher part of the damage
tribal blade
oh i never compare my performance to sims
since sims expect 100% uptime
and also you need to shift things around depending on the fight sometimes
just compare to other players
light imp
exactly. logs for my ilvl are surpassing even my sims. and im trying to understand why because sims tend to be unrealistically high in terms of realistic damage
ignore the fact i said unrealistically high in terms of realistic damage
my brain farted
it could boil down to itemizations or trinkets. i was just asking it as an off shot question if sikran logs were known to potentially have short fight times due to carrys deflating the fight time, there have been some bosses in the past that have been like that
tribal blade
it could boil down to itemizations or trinkets. i was just asking it as an off s...
i honestly have no idea on sikran, i don't think it's one of those bosses where logs are really inaccurate in that way, but i could be wrong
my guild's last kill on heroic sikran was 2:20, how long was yours?
light imp
3:30, but also pug. guild is a 1 a day group so were extending our lockout for queen so we can get to mythics
tribal blade
could be fight length
plush roost
Trickster mostly does its singletarget rotation while cleaving, whereas deathsta...
Hmm but wouldn't you say during cds tricksters cleave is more efficient in prio damage? On ulgrax you're in your cds for add phases, bbh you're in cds for go down phases, sik/rash/kyveza lets ignore, with brood you're correct. Thats just my thoughts behind my earlier statement.
I can't imagine playing DS on bbh 3 target cleave, or silken court.
half comet
you dont get anything in prio dmg for trickster
you can just cleave without losing that much dmg
deathstalker literally adds dmg to your prio target
light imp
DS starts getting better at 3+ targets. the more targets the more damage you gain both prio and aoe. so for silken trickster still gonna be better
lofty bloom
Is there a way to macro two spells into the same button? As in: I want to macro Secret Technique and Eviscerate on the same button but I want Eviscerate to be used only when secret technique is on cooldown
plush roost
Hmm my brain just doesn't see it, ill try DS on Ulgrax and BBH this week ig.
light imp
you wouldnt want that cause many times you'll hold sectec a few seconds for dance
light imp
Hmm my brain just doesn't see it, ill try DS on Ulgrax and BBH this week ig.
i tried it today. the adds dont live long enough for it to do much, and you need to spec into silent storm and imp shuriken if you want instant aoe damage
wind canopy
Is there a way to macro two spells into the same button? As in: I want to macro ...
That doesn’t work. There’s no conditionals for when something is on CD
light imp
shadowed finishers
light imp
how are you out? out of most of the classes i play rogue has the least lol
uneven scarab
Sub doesnt even really have that many out of the three as well
half comet
how are you out? out of most of the classes i play rogue has the least lol
which classes?
light imp
arms warr and enh shaman
plush roost
i tried it today. the adds dont live long enough for it to do much, and you need...
So then whys everyone replying to me saying DS is adding prio damage -_-. Trickster bursts down adds and priority adds way better than DS and logs support this. I was only speaking in context of nerubar palace
fair stump
enh has SO many buttons...
lofty bloom
too many cooldowns
pliant topaz
when you have darkest night buff , and you reapply the deathstalkers mark using ...
yeah that was a bug introduced 4 weeks ago before mythic release
about 3% loss
pliant topaz
Hmm but wouldn't you say during cds tricksters cleave is more efficient in prio ...
depends on what youre trying to do.
if you awnt to get a lot o fprio damage / funnel
deathstalkers better
if u wanna just turbo pad - dethstalker could be be better
if u wanna just not lose single target while cleaving -> trickster
light imp
So then whys everyone replying to me saying DS is adding prio damage -_-. Tricks...
ds has some setup time, if the adds live long enough for you to get off an entire dance worth of full combo point BPs alternating with just 1 shuriken storm it'll add a lot of damage
however with trickster you just have to literally hit with a single eviserate and you'll cleave
plain zephyr
I do considerably more overall damage in M+ as the old Trickster build than I do the new Deathstalker build. I must suck at this new build... lol
1.3-1.4m overall as the old Trickster build. Barely over 1 mil DPS as this Deathstalker build.
light imp
So then whys everyone replying to me saying DS is adding prio damage -_-. Tricks...
to put it even more simply, with trickster the damage you do to the boss cleaves to adds, with DS the damage you do to adds cleaves onto the prio target, so trickster is better for quick instant aoe damage, but with DS the more damage you can pump into adds (live longer/more of them) the MORE damage you'll do to prio target
light imp
I do considerably more overall damage in M+ as the old Trickster build than I do...
it took me quite a few dungeons before i was doing similar trickster damage. the damage potential for DS is higher due to BP only have a soft cap while nimble has a hard cap
plush roost
to put it even more simply, with trickster the damage you do to the boss cleave...
Ig my understanding of "prio damage" is different. Since the way the fights are designed this raid a lot of priority damage is burst related (hitting bulwark add and cleaving on the 2 harbingers in bbh, big beatles on Ulgrax as examples) so thats how I view it.
But as I'm reading replies I'm getting a sense that "priority damage" is used in a more long term context (like brood twister will be taking priority damage over the entire fight) so maybe it's a english diff xd
light imp
more live evicerate too high
This was a +7 stonevault i did earlier, i was fucking around during the dungeon so i should would have had more dps, im also only 615 ilvl
plain zephyr
How are you refreshing slice and dice and procing Darkest Night? Just throwing an occasional Eviscerate?
light imp
half the time im only refreshing snd between pulls, and if i happen to be in a position to throw out an evis for darkest night i do
but sometimes i get 10 mob pulls and at that point 1 BP will do far more damage than an evis buffed with DN, the only time i'd make that a priority is if there was an add that i COULD make a priority for singular focus
otherwise you're just panic looking for a DN target or they die and you ahve to find another one or worry about reapplying mark
tepid trellis
How are you refreshing slice and dice and procing Darkest Night? Just throwing ...
you just evis whenever DN is up
vale lagoon
ngl
ds is just way clunky
like we were pulling 900k+ overalls at 610-ish ilvl with tricks
i should be able to get like 1.5 million now if i played it right
idk how i can do that on ds
esp that tea + dust thing with trickster is so busted in m+
vale lagoon
sub is just tuned like piss
i mean trickster could be tuned well on paper lmao
but the bugs maaaan
man trickster is such a treat to play in aoe
but im worried about what it's gonna be like after they remove dust
woeful horizon
fresh sub rogue wondering if i should just go outlaw with these loots from timewalking chest ?
sweet summit
woeful horizon
seems these items are more cringe for sub
round latch
fresh sub rogue wondering if i should just go outlaw with these loots from timew...
blood of the old god isnt half bad but ye
none the above
tepid trellis
i think you are putting too much thought into it, not gonna lie
round latch
i think you are putting too much thought into it, not gonna lie
u sound like someone who has already mentally quit ngl
vale lagoon
u sound like someone who has already mentally quit ngl
haven't all sub players lul
tepid trellis
nah people just put too much thought into these minute details thats gonna have 0 impact what so ever
round latch
haven't all sub players lul
not me
tribal blade
i just found out
on last boss ara
you can step someone/something on the last suck
and live
vale lagoon
well yeah
round latch
and live
i do that personally most of the times
but like 95% of my arakara keys are bricked
vale lagoon
i guess it saves a puddle for ur healers and all but like
it doesnt give u more uptime
tribal blade
my bdk friend just bricked my 11 ara
that should have been an easy push
now i have a 10 SV
vale lagoon
same, bricked 11 this morning
round latch
tepid trellis
u sound like someone who has already mentally quit ngl
if it werent for Sub being decent on silken court, id not touch this spec atm
vale lagoon
and then another 10 earlier today
tepid trellis
shit is awful
vale lagoon
this 626 ilvl pres evoker
was pumping out an impressive 400k hps
on that last boss
vale lagoon
xD
tepid trellis
shit is tuned like you are bringing a pool noodle to a gun fight
round latch
if it werent for Sub being decent on silken court, id not touch this spec atm
i find inspiration in deathtsalker but whatever,idk man
its personal preference
cant force u into it
pliant topaz
my bdk friend just bricked my 11 ara
I just lost a 13 siege by 3 seconds to a mage dying 3 times to the 2nd boss's swirlies, and twice on last boss. and also a litearl monkey playing DK who would get the circle on last boss, and just sit there and refuse to move so we cant hit the tentacles
round latch
pliant topaz
god im so fucking tilted
tribal blade
I just lost a 13 siege by 3 seconds to a mage dying 3 times to the 2nd boss's sw...
lol typical mages tbh
tepid trellis
personally i do not care which hero talent i need to play, i neither love nor hate either of them
tepid trellis
what i do have a massive problem with
tribal blade
hahaaa
pliant topaz
the dk would sit on the tentacle with the swirlie
tribal blade
meta spec players man
tepid trellis
is being tuned like toddler amongst grown ass adults
pliant topaz
and we couldnt hit the thing
tribal blade
cool thing is you can stand in the water on those tents
but yeah standing directly in the middle of everyone with a debuff is troll
pliant topaz
it was on the shipt i had dm kb pot but coudlnt get close to hit it
because the guy was litearlly blocking me off
tribal blade
not during KB nooo
vale lagoon
man is today just troll day or what
round latch
for this monkey to move
i think alot of goofies turned to tanking coz the acro mechanic is lost in general and now we suffering the consequences
vale lagoon
we also almost bricked a 11 SoB just now
round latch
i swear i had 10 tanks que my keys
vale lagoon
bcuz our 2.7k io healer insta dispels on last boss
tribal blade
i dunno get players in an 11 to kick
pliant topaz
the tank was good it was the 2 brain damaged dps
tribal blade
crazy concept
vale lagoon
almost killed our wheelchair dk and ret
tribal blade
dks and mages are getting fast tracked IO
tepid trellis
@pliant topaz you know whats funny
pliant topaz
sup
tepid trellis
u know princess right
round latch
i dunno get players in an 11 to kick
that tank must have been afk
tepid trellis
you can kinda cheese the fight as rogue and just have 0 mechs the entire fight
BUT IT DOESENT MATTER
pliant topaz
eyoo? how
tepid trellis
cuz you do zero dmg anyway
tribal blade
that tank must have been afk
so he's a friend, i met him during SL S4
but he's kind of a goober
tepid trellis
and you get gapped by an enhancement shamman running around in ranged pressing Lightning bolt
tribal blade
i thought a 11 ara is pretty chill and he's timed it already
but ofc it's my key so we're not gonna time it
tepid trellis
eyoo? how
cloak the charges and you have like 99% uptime
its basically a none mechanic fight for rogue
pliant topaz
dont u still have to move out though?
u mean if u dont take the damage u dont have to move out for circles?
tepid trellis
you place the charge where its meant to go
then cloak before it goes off
step back
done
pliant topaz
also @tepid trellis idk what u mean. outlaws blasting! they needed the buff, so did sin. sub? nah cant wait for the 11.0.5 nerf to come in
vale lagoon
WAIT
tepid trellis
so you loose like 3 sec
pliant topaz
cool to see max sub being lower than 50% outlaw
round latch
everything's ok with enh shaman btw
vale lagoon
you cloak the charge?
round latch
nothing's wrong
pliant topaz
good thing they buffed it so guy can stop crying
round latch
😂
pliant topaz
and u know theyre gonna buff them
round latch
mage is the class that was every single time for some reason on patch notes
tepid trellis
pliant topaz
u just take the median around 1260. u look at subs around 1160, u do a little matheroo then realize this games not very good
shut sonnet
I’m going to buff outlaw
pliant topaz
no no
we needed the 6% sectech nerf on beta
u dont understand stealthi
too much power
tribal blade
and u know theyre gonna buff them
so given how they buff sub, we can expect the next buff we need to come 3 tiers later
pliant topaz
the coup DM stacks? THAT WAS WAY TOO GOOD HAD TO GO
tribal blade
since the BP buff was something we needed in S3
round latch
I’m going to buff outlaw
im gonna buff u bb 
tepid trellis
so we take the fall for that
pliant topaz
10% worth of bugs on deathstalker? nah its fine
pliant topaz
nah we do too good on HC
not for long buddy
pliant topaz
yep
tepid trellis
they will see how hsit sub is
surely
we get buffed to the moon right?
RIGHT???
pliant topaz
u cant pull vanish at 1 min for a 1:30 min sikran kill anymore
tepid trellis
RIGHT ARMIN!
shut sonnet
pliant topaz
and these people are gonna be all suprised pikkachu like whaaaaaaaat what happened
i thought 2nd sod charge was so good
i cooked rela hard on that one
round latch
😂
tepid trellis
"wait why is sub suddenly shit"
shut sonnet
they will see how hsit sub is
tepid trellis
always was mfer
hard wren
Turn sub into augmentation
pliant topaz
so mysterious so unpredictable
tepid trellis
Turn sub into augmentation
banned
hard wren
and outlaw into tank
pliant topaz
i gotta get to the bottom of it, while im at it, lemme buff fire mage a little
round latch
Turn sub into augmentation
shut sonnet
Buff lingering shadows
tepid trellis
brb i need to go punch a wall
shut sonnet
Return to backstab
tepid trellis
im pissed now
pliant topaz
tepid trellis
update if my hand is broken in 5 min
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/laufey-very-demure-demure-very-mindful-mindful-gif-231512...
wait i think i actually know who that is, she's a singer called laufey
pliant topaz
@shut sonnet
shut sonnet
Bro just first named me
vale lagoon
man
shut sonnet
Unreal
hard wren
I would legit enjoy buff-spec rogue. tricks and smoke buff, like trickster but buffing group not just rogue
pliant topaz
wait i think i actually know who that is, she's a singer called laufey
very cutsey. very demure
tepid trellis
Bro just first named me
wtf KYLE
vale lagoon
i swear sub is like only ever strong for a tier
pliant topaz
wtf KYLE
tepid trellis
first name drop me
vale lagoon
and then we're crap for like
tepid trellis
if you even remember it
round latch
who is kyle
shut sonnet
I don’t think I ever got it 
tepid trellis
i swear sub is like only ever strong for a tier
eh thats cap
sub has been very good for a while
hard wren
a good sub rogue still raids but nobody sees him in the raid
tepid trellis
just aint this tier
tribal blade
you guys gotta put your first name in your disc username like me
vale lagoon
sub has been very good for a while
were we good later on in df?
tribal blade
that way you dox yourself every day
vale lagoon
actually, what happened to the 1 dance build lo
tepid trellis
not the meme awakened one
hard wren
i swear sub is like only ever strong for a tier
or 1 boss like battle for dazar'alor
tepid trellis
I don’t think I ever got it <:Susge:888573531468734555>
yes you have
wind canopy
!scana
round latch
!scana
pliant topaz
bro?
pliant topaz
got the first letter right atleast
thats all I knew LMFAO
shut sonnet
that way you dox yourself every day
I was streaming raid one time and accidentally hit my windows key + something and it opened up a settings page that said WELCOME INSERT SCANA FIRST AND LAST NAME HERE
shut sonnet
pliant topaz
least scana moment of all time
wind canopy
I was streaming raid one time and accidentally hit my windows key + something an...
Good. Fucking. Job.
pliant topaz
GEORGE?
shut sonnet
Ya
tepid trellis
was it you or oxi i showed my house?
shut sonnet
Me
shut sonnet
It’s all over now buddy
wind canopy
RIP in pepperinos
pliant topaz
and u didnt show me? smh smh
okay but when europe sleepover pizza party though
at KPBs house
he cant stop all of us
tepid trellis
yeah bro cuz i live sooooo close to kieron
shut sonnet
@sly shore WAKE UP
tepid trellis
lemme just drop by real quick
pliant topaz
its like a 100euros flight
tepid trellis
just a lil ocean inbetween
shut sonnet
It will be a business expense
tepid trellis
only business in here is what imma do to you kyle
shut sonnet
wind canopy
pliant topaz
man i gotta go detilt after that key
wind canopy
I know to the best way to detilt
pliant topaz
play league?
tribal blade
man i gotta go detilt after that key
i just got off wow after my brick and i feel so much better
wind canopy
Delete wow. Never have to tilt again from doing keys
tribal blade
my key bricking and sub being in the gutter is really making me not want to play wow
wind canopy
tepid trellis
ranked solo q lets get it
join me
pliant topaz
I mostly play wow for sub. sin gets really boring really really fast
pliant topaz
my friends want me to play ffxiv with them.
im almost 50 i think
the raids look fun to prog
tribal blade
sub was once the most interesting rogue spec by a mile
shut sonnet
Does it have plot
tepid trellis
new raid in lost ark 1 ½ week
wind canopy
Just play PoE2 when it comes out next month
tepid trellis
shut sonnet
shut sonnet
I’m uhh busy or something
pliant topaz
Does it have plot
no idea it looks like this
then in like p2 it becomes a boy and a girl
idk whats going on but looks sick
pliant topaz
bro got so excited at the end he swapped back to english
dont get hit dont get hit lmfao
vale lagoon
man
the state of sub has kinda got me bored with the game lol
like 10s are free
heroic gears are worthless
but this spec isn't gonna push keys or be prio in mythic raids
am i already in the limbo of doing 8 keys a week and nothing else lmao
pliant topaz
join stealthi
play lost ark
or do 200 hours of story with me in ffixv so u can prog the raid
vale lagoon
lmao idk
not actually a huge mmo guy
wow just clicks bcuz it's so comprehensive as a game
i wish dnf wasn't so p2w man
now THAT was a fun game
light imp
dnf?
vale lagoon
dungeon fighter online?
been a LONG ass time since i played tho lol
and dragon nest too
and lifeafter
uneven scarab
Rift 
final cedar
Hey guys do you think subtlety will become a bit more viable in Mythic+ content with the small changes coming in patch 11.5?
shut sonnet
dungeon fighter online?
Bis game but so dead
vale lagoon
Hey guys do you think subtlety will become a bit more viable in Mythic+ content ...
oh u just missed people being rather unhappy with said changes lol
vale lagoon
Bis game but so dead
i think the game just doesn't have most of its playerbase here in the west
idk, asia is just more willing whale in general for some reason
pliant topaz
Hey guys do you think subtlety will become a bit more viable in Mythic+ content ...
will be a bit better in keys most likely yea
shut sonnet
I was a filthy skirmisher main
vale lagoon
like look at FGO lol
vale lagoon
will be a bit better in keys most likely yea
wait
how much better
i thought you guys said it was gonna be pretty pointless?
should i get my hopes up lol
pliant topaz
It’s basically going to be the exact same thing u so now with the DB build. Except u burst on 1.5 min instead of 2
So it’s a tiny bit better that’s all
Everything else is gonna be worse
vale lagoon
do we even play db rn lol
final cedar
If the extreme reliance on cooldowns is reduced like in the early days of Dragonflight, and if we can use 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Symbols of Death per mob pull, I think Subtlety might not be as good as Assassination but could still be slightly better than Outlaw in Mythic+. But that's just my guess
vale lagoon
If the extreme reliance on cooldowns is reduced like in the early days of Dragon...
oh the idea of specing 1 point into a 2 point node
and not even going for the keystone
is soooo cursed
pliant topaz
do we even play db rn lol
ive had better success with it
pliant topaz
If the extreme reliance on cooldowns is reduced like in the early days of Dragon...
being better than sin/worse is just a matter of tuning
vale lagoon
ive had better success with it
that's what i started with too but a lot of timings feel rly awkward lol
pliant topaz
sub most likely will not go back to s1/s2 of DF flat profile
vale lagoon
i feel like flat profile
is rly op for m+ tho
ret sorta just does what we did back then now and they're completely fine
i hear frost dk is like that too but idk
vale lagoon
super awkward to play tho
i feel like there's just so much variantions in what happens in a dungeon
so specs with flat profiles just turn off their brain and blast
while burst specs either has the entire group cater to them(bfa fire mage) or just gets screw off a single pull
pliant topaz
burst specs do better with coordinated groups
and planned routes
not great for average LFG keys
vale lagoon
yeah
but even in coordinated groups
i only play with the people who are 2.5~2.6k rn
so not super pro
final cedar
The admin of this channel is a total Subtlety pro, right? If I call them out and ask, would I get banned? lol
vale lagoon
that then means even in coordinated groups we sorta make mistakes
i just feel like i had such a better time with dfa sub and 1 dance sub
maybe i just give up my pride completely and go sin lol
pliant topaz
The admin of this channel is a total Subtlety pro, right? If I call them out and...
not sure what u mean by this
spark tusk
The admin of this channel is a total Subtlety pro, right? If I call them out and...
You can just ask your questions. There are several people in here doing high end content with valid opinions. Also keep in mind it’s after midnight in NA so lots people people asleep
(Like I should be 
)
pliant topaz
(Like I should be <:dead:932888396316155934>)
go bedge
tepid trellis
You can just ask your questions. There are several people in here doing high end...
wait are people from NA real?
i thought it was a lie
tepid trellis
The admin of this channel is a total Subtlety pro, right? If I call them out and...
nah, only way to get yourself banned is by breaking the rules
tulip token
wait are people from NA real?
Hi from NA 🙂
tepid trellis
fair stump
EST here...
tulip token
It is 3:30am here
tulip token
EST here...
Ayeeee
vale lagoon
man
but the anniversary patch changes are gonna be better for ds in just all settings
aren'tt hey
drifting fable
wait are people from NA real?
im the realest mf you know
tepid trellis
im the realest mf you know
nah you more like an urban legend tbh
drifting fable
vale pine
do brew and deeper daggers even work with sectech lol
yes
tribal blade
i heard we're calling out the admins of this channel apparently
vale pine
10.2
we asked for damage amps to work on things
because it was a complete mess
and the dev team agreed, and fixed most of it
it is just, the problem comes up again with each new talent added or changed
vale lagoon
oh so now we just have to wait to 11.2 to get lingering darkness to work with sectech?
and shadow blades too right
oh god
vale pine
e.g. if you look at the hero talents you would assume the shadow damage talent would work on every shadow damage talent
it does not, and our biggest one would be the shadow clone attacks of secret technique
the problem isn't simple
because of how things are designed
so in a sense it is a self created problem for the dev team
vale lagoon
i think someone yesterday said something about pet dmg
vale lagoon
and that's fking crazy to me lol
vale pine
basically akaaris soul
vale lagoon
?
vale pine
is a mechanism from Legion
vale pine
give me a second
vale pine
you will understand
vale lagoon
that?????
i still rmemeber the artifact thingy
but wait
they're using that for what
sectech?
vale pine
secret techniques is essentially re-using the legion artifact weaon spell and aniamtion
as a shortcut to re-work death from above
vale lagoon
vale pine
which was at the time the dominant damage finisher
so the assumption was, to keep some characteristics of dfa
it is why it is a 3 part attack
vale lagoon
i had tons of fun with dfa sub lol
vale pine
the problem is, akaaris soul, and as such the 2nd and 3rd attack are pet attacks
and they by default don't benefit from damage amps you get
vale lagoon
do mages have the same issue?
vale pine
they initially also did physical damage
and now they do shadow damage because it fits more
vale pine
do mages have the same issue?
don't think so
vale pine
there is a diffrence
because akaaris is not a mob you summon
you don't have akaari fighting alongside you
but a attack originating from a pet
and not you
vale lagoon
why can't they code it as a summon that only lasts for 1 gcd lol
diablo 3 monk has a whole item doing just that
vale pine
i can't say exactly how it works internally
because the code is not public
so unless i worked there, i can't 100% know how its handled
the reason it is like it is however
is because akaaris soul was deisgned this way
tribal blade
i'm watching casual's 15 NW, he hearths out of the dungeon before stitchflesh to swap from sin to sub
vale pine
and the spell was re-used for secret technique
vale pine
i'm watching casual's 15 NW, he hearths out of the dungeon before stitchflesh to...
tripple dance burst
tribal blade
tripple dance burst
yeah sub with dust is really good on that boss
vale lagoon
i feel like sub with dust + tea is just untapped potential in general
vale pine
well for only like 10 days now
tribal blade
i even did that boss as DB trickster and it was still good boss dam
vale lagoon
i saw a guy post his sims earlier
tried it myself, almost as high dmg as the new ds build!
vale pine
dust + dea has its issues
because of the cooldown of vanish
but to go back to secret
it was supposed to get a update esp. visually after Legion
it is just, like with many things
a bandaid becomes permanent if you put it in production
because you never have the time to get back to update it
and as the dev team switches
expertise is lost on how the spell data are stuctured/etc
so instead of them correcting these issues
they just try to keep it going and fix it
vale lagoon
can't they just delete the entire spell and code a new one lol
vale pine
e.g. to highlight some things
the animation was broken for i think 2 patches
so the spell didn't even play a animation
vale lagoon
maybe im wrong but i dont feel like ppl in here are super married to that spell?
vale pine
comes to the same problem
basically before DF
secret did no damage
so it was like
a bit better than evi and bp
but rly like
just a tiny bit
DF now did subtlety dirty
the spec got Nothing out of the new talent trees
and just everything it had prior thrown into the tree
one of these things was secret technique
it was positioned as a outer node initially
vale lagoon
the spec got Nothing out of the new talent trees
huh i never thought about it that way
i just had fun blasting early on with the 1 dance thingy
vale pine
but you would never pick secret
keep in mind i talk about the first iteration, we had some updates after that
so in order to make secret good
it was buffed by some absurd number
idk the exact one but it now does like 200 or 300% of the damage it did before
vale lagoon
...yeah that sounds like something that should just be a baseline skill, no?
vale lagoon
oh
vale pine
with what was before baseline or a legendary/conduit/covenant skill
so then more you put "baseline"
then more new things you need to add
vale lagoon
i think someone with a green name was saying that they wanted the sylvanas daggers to be a talent lol
vale pine
yes
vale lagoon
guess that didn't work out for them xD
vale pine
we as a commmunity asked for it
tribal blade
we've been throwing that idea around in here since the rework
vale pine
the dev team did not want to agree on it
because of assassiantion
which has a execute talent
they wanted sub to not have that
vale pine
yes
fallow nimbus
There are a few things from past talent trees and legies that could fit
vale lagoon
i thought it was just bonus dmg for spending cp]
tribal blade
yeah it did more damage depending on hp
vale pine
indirectly
tribal blade
at max hp it hit once, and at low hp it hit 4 times iirc
vale lagoon
oooooh
wait
so why don't they just removed that
and kept the cp part
im so confused
tribal blade
so apparently sin can take stuff from other specs
but not the other way around
is the moral of the story
fallow nimbus
It's all just lazyness or inefficient time management with the spec
vale lagoon
so apparently sin can take stuff from other specs
hey we technically have flurry now lol
tribal blade
hey we technically have flurry now lol
that would be us taking stuff from outlaw 😉
fringe palm
indirectly
give it back 
vale lagoon
that would be us taking stuff from outlaw 😉
man if only they could fix the bugs
fallow nimbus
I wouldn't be shocked when sub stuff is last on the list and gets talked about in the last 5min of meetings when everyone wants to go
barren dawn
anyone tried the rogue in ptr?
tribal blade
what gives you a good idea of that is even when sub was the meta raid spec after the rework
literally nobody played it
also it was in a situation of being really good in raid, but horrible in M+
which is continuing to carry over to this expac
they could just tune the shit out of sub, but i think core reworks would be better
like needing to spam ruptures while the tank is gathering is very strange
having 0 damage outside of cds
vale lagoon
i just feel like the few times sub was rly fun
tribal blade
having absolutely no energy economy w/o vigor+tea
vale lagoon
was when we just spiked on dance every pull
with no other cds to play around
i don't rly enjoy playing around flag or blades in keys
tribal blade
you would enjoy playing around those cds if they were tuned correctly i think
because right now the burst is not high enough to warrant our downtime
if we're supposed to have really bad downtime, our cds should be nuclear
vale lagoon
idk, i just don't like flag overall
i gotta target one mob
and slowly ramp up?
ew
dfa was so fun man, just send
tribal blade
yeah it's not an easy cd to use in a sense
tribal blade
you have to make sure your flag target is going to live the entire ramp duration
everyone hated sectec before, and then it got insanely buffed going into DF haha
vale lagoon
yeah so it sucks if u have to tab around a lot to interrupt
tribal blade
sectec was such a useless talent before
vale lagoon
yeah someone else was jsut saying lol
but like
playing around sectech was nice
can't exactly goof it up
tribal blade
my idea is that it should only be available to press while in dance
vale lagoon
and playing around it doesn't goof up other things either
tribal blade
which plays into the whole "secret technique" thing
go into dance>sectec is available because it's a secret>big dam
tribal blade
yeah and it would simplify the spec a bit
right now an issue with sub is tracking so many different spells with different cds and they cooldown at different rates
vale lagoon
yeah and it would simplify the spec a bit
that idk about lol
i just feel like flag is so awful
tribal blade
the less you need to track the simpler it becomes
flag is alright, i think everyone's used to it now
since we've been playing with it since SL
i think they missed a giant oppotunity to put the legendary effect of flag into our talent tree
vale lagoon
idk tho
tribal blade
that would have made flag a 1 min cd
vale lagoon
i just REALLY hate playing around one target
shadow blades is way nicer to use in m+
tribal blade
the good thing is you can put flag on a target that's gonna live and forget about it
you can freely swap targets
it doesn't matter
tribal blade
we could have had this
vale lagoon
dang learn something new every day lol
but like
at that point
why not just make it a buff that targets myself lol
vale lagoon
huh
...is that what our spec "fantasy" or whatever is?
i thought we're just ninjas
tribal blade
it's from shadowlands, it came from the venthyr
vale lagoon
yeah but like does it fit us lol
vale lagoon
...yeah it's some 50 shades of grey stuff
but again, does it rly fit us?
they're removing sepsis right
tribal blade
i'm not sure if it fits thematically, but we did use flag a lot
it was the only covenant we had that had actual aoe potential
vale lagoon
lol i thought the consesus of the community is that they just want to move on from SL
and pretend it never happened
tribal blade
they decided to bake a bunch of SL stuff into every class's DF trees
hilariously giving some specs stuff that didn't fit at all
like sepsis
vale lagoon
yeah gameplay over story/fantasy i guess right
but is flag's gameplay even that good lol
i hope this isn't like
a silly take or anything
but i rly wonder if ppl actually like flag, or it was just the only good covenant thing they had and they got used to it existing
tribal blade
i'm not sure what everyone else thinks, but personally i think it's ok
like if it's here to stay, i can live with it
if they decided to replace it, i wouldn't be mad
vale lagoon
are there ppl who think it's skill expression in here and rly want to keep it lol
im kinda afraid of those ppl
familiar with quite a few "classic was way harder" guys who think like that
tribal blade
familiar with quite a few "classic was way harder" guys who think like that
LOL classic was definitely not harder
boss mechanics were non existant
and rotations were non existant
vale lagoon
LOL classic was definitely not harder
yeah lol
that's kinda the thing
i feel like a lot of ppl think tedium = difficulty
tribal blade
people think because you could randomly get 1 shot by something and the game was a massive grind meant complexity
a few of my guildies ran a classic guild for a while, and i got to see some of their play
and it's unbelievable how they could find ways to mess up bosses that have 2 mechanics
vale lagoon
yeah pretty much
they're super obsessed with doing chores
and get super proud about it
vale lagoon
yah again that's kinda my point lol
i feel like a lot of things in wow aren't rly hard, just annoying
and idk if im wrong to think flag is one of those things
pulsar mauve
I dreamt that realz was my neighbour and told me he would look at sub. I'm wondering if I should stop playing ...
vale lagoon
I dreamt that realz was my neighbour and told me he would look at sub. I'm wonde...
...is this normal in here lol
barren dawn
i feel like a lot of things in wow aren't rly hard, just annoying
facts
vale pine
give it back <a:FeelsRainMan:804283714858909746>
would fit well with both subtlety and its current toolkit
you have shadow damage amps to empower it
and it gives single target damage, so has trade offs
quite good for a talent option
vale pine
i don't rly enjoy playing around flag or blades in keys
the problem of flagellation is, it adds ramp up time
and it is punishing too
you need to reach high stacks and need to send a 2nd cycle of cooldowns to benefit
where on other classes
you press your cooldowns
and do damage
ramp up was added to subtlety to get rid of instant burst
because it was seen as bad for the game
its just that these constraints/design goals
more times than not get thrown out of the window when developing other classes or sometimes even specs
it is one of the reasons for inconsistencies in game deisgn
the other big one i personally think is the lack of a convinient way to compare specs or classes
vale lagoon
ramp up was added to subtlety to get rid of instant burst
how are they gonna say burst is bad when ret exists man
they press one button and do their aoe
vale pine
well you need to not forget
fallow nimbus
It's bad when sub has it but other specs are fine
vale pine
development is slow
so opinions might change
and because it takes so long to update specs
vale pine
because it can trivialize fights
e.g. balance druids
did in SL just remove entire raid mechanics
same with mages/warriors atm
if there are adds to deal with, they get rid of them
vale lagoon
lol but we don't need to burst like bfa fire mage
fallow nimbus
But do they get nerfed or reworked? No
vale lagoon
i still feel like im 100% right to say that sub was always at its best when it plays around smaller bursts at shorter interval
vale lagoon
1 min shadow dance, legion's dfa, df's 1 dance
vale pine
i still feel like im 100% right to say that sub was always at its best when it p...
yes, i am with you on this
it was also the feedback the dev team recived
BUT
again
they don't want that
vale lagoon
wait what
vale pine
because it does not fit the current design goal
vale lagoon
oh
fallow nimbus
They don't know what they want
vale lagoon
wait why tho
vale pine
thats why they design 2 and 3 mintue specs
vale lagoon
they made it work twice already
vale pine
i think there are 2 ways to thimk about it
first of all they made it work 3+ times for sub
vale lagoon
!
vale pine
but you can think of it from two perspectives
the first one is "this was a great iteration that sets itself appart"
the second one is "this was a unplaned monstrosity we had to rework"
i ofc. exraggerated that statement to make the point more clear
but the gist is, you might want certain damage patterns and types on all specs/classes in the game
vale lagoon
but why would they see that 2nd perspective if they received positive player feedback lol
fallow nimbus
That dfa was an accident but also the best of legion and bfa is hilarious
vale pine
because it allows for easy raid and dungeon design
vale pine
but why would they see that 2nd perspective if they received positive player fee...
^ exactly what i pointed out
you want to limit your deisgn space
a developer only needs to know
"burst damage is always in a 2 min interval, etc."
vale lagoon
^ exactly what i pointed out
but i don't recall the 2 short burst window iterations to be problematic lol
vale pine
then narrorer this design space is, then easier it is to design around
vale lagoon
like planning an entire route around a mage's dmg
is game warping
but in practice sub just did the same thing as a flatline spec, no?
vale pine
but i don't recall the 2 short burst window iterations to be problematic lol
well thats where opinion vs. data makes a diffrence
e.g. from statistics
vale lagoon
huh
vale pine
you wouldn't say many of the niches where problematic
that blizz purged from subtelty
but in their opinion they are
vale lagoon
did they have data of sub crowding out other specs/classes?
vale pine
else they wouldn't have often very brutally removed it
vale pine
did they have data of sub crowding out other specs/classes?
i mean you see it in play rate
vale lagoon
i think i remember one mechanic that got rly out of hand
vale pine
for a quick explenation
fallow nimbus
Zul
vale pine
let me just talk abotu shadowdust
vale lagoon
i think there was a fight in bfa where you took like a full raid of sub rogues
vale pine
*about
dust wasn't the problem when it was introduced because you had nobody playing subtlety
fringe palm
did they have data of sub crowding out other specs/classes?
its can be enough if theres issues in certain scenarios, eg 30sec burst classes dominate lower m+ because they delete every pack similar to dk right now. or there are some raid encounters where the spec would be too good
vale lagoon
its can be enough if theres issues in certain scenarios, eg 30sec burst classes ...
did either dfa sub or 1 dance sub have these issues?
vale pine
but then after a month
they nerfed assassaitnion
now people needed to not only switch specs
fringe palm
did either dfa sub or 1 dance sub have these issues?
i would be lying if i could tell you after 6 (?)+ years without bias or forgetting stuff
wanting dfa back is mental btw
vale pine
but learn the entire complex beast that dust was in 10.2
vale lagoon
i would be lying if i could tell you after 6 (?)+ years without bias or forgetti...
i mean 1 dance sub from earlier on in dragonflight
vale pine
and it created a bad feedback loop
vale lagoon
when we just spike every 30 seconds with our single dance haha
vale pine
so now people felt forced to play what they didn't like
and it was complicated
this solved itself
they buffed assassiantion back up again
vale lagoon
...i bet if they just kept the version of sub with 1 dance and rly low button count
vale pine
so subtlety was not played anymore in late s3 or s4
vale lagoon
ppl wouldn't be nearly as salty about having to rr