subtlety

[vale lagoon]

wasn't there a time in classic where combo points are literally on our targets instead of something we built ourselves lol

deathstalker reminds me of that

super clunky

super outdated

i wish it just worked like edge of night instead

[tribal blade]

yes, if you swapped targets and generated a combo point on a new target you would lose all your old ones

it was pretty horrendous

[vale lagoon]

yeah and deathstalker feels like a continuation of that

which i think is not great

[vale pine]

yes

[keen dome]

This didn't change until MoP I think

[tribal blade]

i do not like how much DS makes you locked onto 1 target

[vale pine]

you had skills to transfere combo points between targets

but was modernized later to be on you

[keen dome]

A very good change.

[vale lagoon]

yup

[wispy bolt]

when can u use shurikan in trickster? when dance is down and just waiting for it?

[nimble burrow]

fuu may i ask does the target count WA work again?

[wispy bolt]

an bp then too ig

[vale lagoon]

which makes me confused why they'd go back to that old style with deathstalker

[vague schooner]

do we use blackpowder in aoe after buffs or are we still not using it?

[vale pine]

keep in mind that classic was interessting

[nimble burrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger

[vale pine]

e.g. most classes had mana as their ressource and mana was limited

so caster would actively run out of mana on longer fights, and losing dps as a consequence

some classes had minimum range to attack the target

also caster ended up not as mobile as they are now

so if you had to move, you lost dps

while in modern wow, you are almost at 0 cost mobility

[vale lagoon]

yeah so basically back then, cp on target was comparatively not that bad right

[vale pine]

it was annoying

[vale lagoon]

whereas nowadays the "mark target" style of deathstalker is just

rough

[vale pine]

but deisgn was simpler

if you read between the line above

the design did fallow more strict rules

and had bigger seperation between classes

most of what modernization got rid of

e.g. some mage/hunter specs are now close to melee in design where they can freely move due to only casting instants or being able to cast while moving

everyone now has a lot of mobility spells

encounter design is also more difficult

[vale lagoon]

yeah again, it makes me wonder why they went with something as restricted and hard to pull off as deathstalker

[vale pine]

it feels like

deathstalker was done by somone new to wow

maybe they got a new hire

[vale lagoon]

or maybe someone who only played classic haha

[tribal blade]

DS feels both really simple and really complicated at the same time

[vale pine]

this shouldn't affect quality

because even a new hire should be supervised

but given the small team size and now faster content cycles

[vale lagoon]

more like given how nobody plays rogues

[vale pine]

its easy to see why they didn't care

[vale lagoon]

yeah

[sweet summit]

they play assass now cuz it gets love, they just need to put that energy into sub and probably outlaw

[vale pine]

nobody playing rogue is a self created problem

[vale lagoon]

yeah vicious cycle right

[vale pine]

its like subtlety

[vale lagoon]

the less effort they give the more the class is onetrick only

and then this onetrick only class that pulls in the least subs gets even less resouces

[vale pine]

subtlety is basically the showcase of what happens if you ignore a problem

rogue is a strong fantasy in rpgs

[wispy bolt]

im getting CP refunds but the WA isn't proccing. like it procs for some but not others. also it seems like the ones it doesnt proc for are hella delayed. I know delayed is a bug, but does it also fuck the WA?

[round latch]

i forgot to say that yday but you know.. its that time i have to ask you again

fuutube guides when

[vale pine]

soon™️

[round latch]

[sweet summit]

plss

theres not a whispyr video equivalent for sub but there needs to be

[vale pine]

basically to come back to it

if you look at arpgs/rpgs or tabletop games

rogue is one of the most played

[round latch]

Whispyr has invested an insane amount of time dissecting data,let alone recording vids

the man is a hero

[sweet summit]

he died for our sins

[vale pine]

but wow did put so many design constraints on rogue

[round latch]

Whispyr is Jesus Christ

confirmed

[sweet summit]

he used cheat death to leave the tomb unscathed btw

[vale lagoon]

what i think is scary is the list of bugs i was shown earlier

when i first popped in here, my god

[sweet summit]

ITS INSANE

[vale lagoon]

and especially for trickster too

[vale pine]

ye

and thats only the "new" bugs

there are around 15-20 old ones

[sweet summit]

nobody fucking played DS before it came out

[fallow nimbus]

DS has everything that that we got rid off in the past. Target locked, autohits, min cp finisher + max cp for dn

[sweet summit]

obvious ass bugs

[vale pine]

also there are more bugs

that are probably not documented

[sweet summit]

100% there are

[vale pine]

but thats the same for all classes and specs

there are a lot of bugs

it just depends

how much you highlight them

[vale lagoon]

i dont think previous expansions launched quite this broken

right

[vale pine]

it did

e.g. shadow damage talents didn't work correct till 10.2

a year after release

there ended up a lot of bugs between inetractions

[sweet summit]

my question is if blizzard is starting to do more updates how broken is retail about to get ? they dont test this shit for long enough, they drop it with obvious bugs and thats just what we get

how can we be doing more frequent updates when we arent fixing the old slower updates

[vale pine]

there is 100% a problem in quality control

which makes it comical

that ion i think mentioned how their ones is one of the best in the industry

[muted agate]

are they gonna fix trickster

[sweet summit]

how the fuck can outlaw get the bte bug and sub have these DS bugs for weeks now

[keen dome]

Eventually

[sweet summit]

and theyre like

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe was, back in wrath or something

[vale pine]

depents on what you mean with fix

[wispy bolt]

i stg i shadowstrike and get no cps like 1 in every 50

[sweet summit]

" more frequent updates from now on "

[wispy bolt]

just happened on dummies

[vale pine]

they fix some things in 11.0.5

there are some problems

e.g.

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[vale pine]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1167

[sweet summit]

like actually dont fucking do more frequent updates you cant fix the old ones

[vale pine]

this bug is quite annoying and exists since over 10 months now

and we got a similar one now too with one of the hero talents

[sweet summit]

its so disgusting that it got shipped and released like this

[vale pine]

i think the problem is not that easy

because they are still limited by human ressoruces

[vale lagoon]

man this conversation is turning me more and more toward unsubbing lol

[vale pine]

think of it like this

[sweet summit]

theoretically more changes means more bug fixing right

but its not playing out that way for us it doesnt look like

[vale lagoon]

i feel like no matter how limited they are, a company that has this little integrity in their product doesn't deserve to have customers

[vale pine]

they have potentially 10 people working on 39 specs

[sweet summit]

this is all self imposed by blizz

they could have more they just dont

[vale pine]

the same team needs to:

• fix bugs
• update existing specs
• balance the game

so you have all these tasks

[sweet summit]

ik yr just giving yr reasons but i think it makes it more frustrating

[vale pine]

so what you do is

you start prioritizing things

make a list

of problems

[fallow nimbus]

On these 10 people follow probably 10 managers per devs

[vale pine]

what is the problem each spec has

how high is the priority

for us as a community

[vale lagoon]

10 people doing the conceptual designs

or the coding lol

[vale pine]

logical argumentaiton can easily point to certian things as problems

but now

[vale lagoon]

because i feel like bugfixes shouldn't be up to these guys no

[small crown]

Wens AI powered bug fix

[sweet summit]

what makes its so frustrating is there is less devs than there is classes

[vale pine]

there is this problem for the community

because even if somehting looks like a obviouse problem

[sweet summit]

its not like there arent people who could step up and give these specs love and time

[vale pine]

it might not be seen as such by the dev team

so the expectation is, they will fix it

but they never will

[sweet summit]

i agree they might not see it that way

[vale pine]

because they think its fine

[sweet summit]

as a player its just shit its unexcusable to have less devs than fucking classes

[vale pine]

now, communication would solve this

e.g. telling the community

this is what we think the state of things is

[sweet summit]

blizzard phreak when

[vale pine]

this is what will get changes

and after that

also maybe give non broken changes to ptr

[sweet summit]

DS was on PTR right

[vale pine]

ptr cycles don't work because you have so little time for iteration

[sweet summit]

how did it ship in such a state

i see

[vale pine]

you get changes implemented

just as the deadline comes

[small crown]

Chances of getting the rogue dev into this discord lik dh have

[vale pine]

for changes

so even if there is a problem

11.1 we will fix

11.1 they have no time

11.2 for sure

[sweet summit]

probably seen as too toxic

[vale pine]

and this cycle continues

as you prioritize what is assumed a bigger problem

and this works

if you focus on problems bigger parts of the community have

but also leads to what subtlety is now

the least played spec in all pve content

[sweet summit]

if blizzard cared about wow they could get it to a state where it could attract new players tbh

[vale pine]

thats difficult

because the leveling expeirence alone is so bad

[sweet summit]

but they just want to maintain or shift player sentiment slightly up

[vale pine]

wow 100%

aims to keep their players over getting new ones

[vale lagoon]

what i wonder tho

[vale pine]

90% of the wow players play longer than 3 years now

[keen dome]

WoW does get new players, though. Not a constant, massive stream but there's a consistent increase via newcomer channel.

[vale lagoon]

like how come they are limited to such a small team

[vale pine]

its just relaive

[vale lagoon]

i'm aware that the overall company is going thru shit

[vale pine]

how many players can you get back to the game

vs. how many new ones

and its easier for them to get player back

so thats what has a higher priority

[vale lagoon]

but like, is wow getting into diablo 3 territories lol

like, just maintanence mode almost

not rly a focus for resources

[keen dome]

WoW is probably one of the most complex games to work on, on the market, too. It's worth keeping in mind the sheer level of scope it has.

Intense technical debt, incredibly complex interconnected systems.

[sweet summit]

blizzard needs to go the fbi route and push wow to kids like its crack, theyre just servicing the junkies they got instead of getting new ones

[keen dome]

WoW absolutely gets new players, though.

[sweet summit]

we all know it could be better for new players its not that interesting to discuss but yea its overall sad how big this game could be rn and how mismanaged it seems

but thats nothing new for games like this

[wispy bolt]

im a "new" player season 2 dragonflight i bought the game

[sweet summit]

im new like

[wispy bolt]

wish i never did

[sweet summit]

last 3 months

[keen dome]

I'd say on average I see 10 - 20 new people starting WoW for the first time a month, going by Newcomer chat alone. It's pretty wild to see although it does 'slow down' as a season goes on.

And that's only the people I directly ask or chat with in newcomer chat who are actively talking / asking questions / chatting.

[sweet summit]

yea

[novel sable]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sweet summit]

try getting into this game without a knowledgeable friend

youll go the cobain route so fast i promise

[keen dome]

The state of Sub does suck a lot, I'd love to see a myriad of things. And quality control / Q&A is clearly lacking in some areas. But the game is in a really good spot right now and, overall, they are reacting pretty quickly to major issues (M+ reward sturcture). Just gotta hope it continues and picks up in the weaker areas.

[sweet summit]

yeah its sad because all things considered

theyre doing a good job with what they have

[keen dome]

Yeah

[sweet summit]

the issue is what they have is limited and self imposed i imagine

[keen dome]

Limited time and resources.

I imagine developing WoW is a constant choice of where do we spend time and on what.

[sweet summit]

i think they easily have enough resources to make the game easier to get into and bring a litte more balance to all the specs

thats just me

[keen dome]

Resources are a complex thing, right? Exile's Reach was a really good attempt at that and I bet it took a ton to make.

[sweet summit]

i mean

thats like a bandaid for a slit artery

1-10 lvl experience

its important

its definitely big

but i think the fact that half the game is actually hidden in addons from an offsite platform is kind of a way bigger thing

the game also doesnt teach you shit

[keen dome]

I imagine making a single quest for new content is a pretty intensive process 'cos you've gotta write the initial design, then write all the text, implement it, make sure it functions with multiple scripts, etc. Then Q&A and proof reading and translation and probably art assets and etc. And that's just 1 quest.

[sweet summit]

i agree

its work

i just think blizz has more resources then they are using

its definitely hard work ill never disagree

i think blizz still has " fuck you " money for whatever products they decide to keep alive

but i could be delusional

i jsut think if you have amoney printer it would pay to maintain that money printer

[keen dome]

I don't think Blizz has that attitude, no. I do think C-suite / Microsoft do though because lol capitalism but that's basically a bigger issue than just one game

[sweet summit]

yea

[keen dome]

I think most people at Blizz just wanna make video games.

[sweet summit]

i think so too

[keen dome]

Gotta direct ire where it's proper: shareholders.

[sweet summit]

yea the problems with the game actually have very little to do with the devs

its the people above the devs

if were talking big picture

[vale lagoon]

i feel like what sucks the most

is the fact that the game IS good, the effort from blizzard is there

just not for us, because we aren't a good enough cash cow

[sweet summit]

its so funny because were enough of a cash cow to keep online and new content

but not enough to put some time in to bring in new players to grow that cash cow

again its all about the people above the devs

[vale lagoon]

not even enough to actually keep this spec above the water

[sweet summit]

but the game is trending in a great direction overall

[vale lagoon]

does this server have like

commands

like /

[sweet summit]

yes

[vale lagoon]

or !

[sweet summit]

!

[vale lagoon]

is there a !bug

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[vale lagoon]

oh there actually is!

oh god the list

but that's not the current stuff

[nimble burrow]

i did it

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[eager locust]

Shadowblades only with Flagellation?

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[eager locust]

Even in aoe?

[fallow nimbus]

Everywhere

[eager locust]

ty ❤️

[fallow nimbus]

Also you mean flag with shadowblades because flag cd is shorter

[eager locust]

So I hold Flag not SB right?

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[eager locust]

thank you kind sir

[dry plank]

Did what?

[eager locust]

So it seems like sub is BiS for last two bosses, and every boss before that pretty much is an assassination boss

Am I right in thinking that?

[lilac stag]

currently yes. that can shift as people get geared, 11,0.5 changes and the weekly aura nerfs to raid.

There’s also nothing really for public logs so it’s copy and paste rwf

[eager locust]

With that in mind, is it more worth to gear sub? As the earlier bosses aren't as difficult and wont require much progression. I would swap to assassination idm on the bosses that need it but it feels so difficult to optimize gear then as vers is garb for assass

[lilac stag]

Wut?

vers is hardly garbage.

That’s a fucking take.

[eager locust]

Its Mastery/Vers for sub and Crit/Mastery for sin no?

[lilac stag]

Assa is ilvl

Vers helps you survive, which assa is currently weaker at

[eager locust]

Sorry I'm not an expert, just looking at wowhead and stuff like that

But based on what you're saying ill just gear sub then

[lilac stag]

You can try to tweak trinkets or some rings, but “sub gear” is more than fine on assa.

[trim ridge]

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[trim ridge]

i got itttt fuck yea

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

imp telephone, let's go

[lilac stag]

Gz

[trim ridge]

when should i use it tho? before shadow blades i suppose

[void hound]

before big cds

[vestal escarp]

[trim ridge]

its something lmao

[eager locust]

if im crafting dagger, is it a different embellishment for raid and M+?

[lilac stag]

Ascendance is safest overall for everything

Crit is slightly better for m+

All of them suck

[haughty mural]

Love that last line

[lilac stag]

[hallow saddle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

the spec balancing for M+ is pretty abyssmal right now

not even talking about sub, just seeing how there's such huge descrepancies between the high and low specs

[vestal escarp]

some dont function much in aoe

like warr dh

[tribal blade]

i hear warr is doing better now with the buffs to mountain thane

[low gale]

Is there an up to date guide for someone new to rub?

sub?

[vestal escarp]

good for them ig

[bold brook]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[bold brook]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/856897746128207892

[mint swift]

How bad is mass crit and mast for sub. Ik the mast is good but what about the crit (asking as I’m offspecing ass)

[vestal escarp]

we run some some talents that take care of it

CB silent storm etc

if you mean m+

[mint swift]

Mainly raid

I don’t enjoy sub that much in keys atm

[vestal escarp]

for raid you want all the vers you can get

[nimble burrow]

Princess, win sin

[mint swift]

Yeye ik ik
But how bad it is to have heavy mast/crit instead of mast/vers

Sometimes I might wanna go sub instead of assa

[lilac stag]

its not. people too obssed with stats

[vestal escarp]

precse % you can get only simming

[lilac stag]

crit should be better in .5 since dust is gone

[vestal escarp]

secondaries are secondarties

like rearranging all you secondaties cant get worse than 4-5%

lke going full vers to full haste

[lilac stag]

I made my crafted gear crit / mastery. i'm so useless now

just here for 3.6 DR

[vestal escarp]

nah sin good St dmg

rog meta raid

[mint swift]

We all know that’s not true… speed stat Bis X)

Jkjk

[lilac stag]

sin and sub mostly want ilvl. swap between the two with whatever. I like vers even on assa since it's a little extra tankiness.

sub wants vers, since outside of mastery shit dont really matter too much with how often CB is back up

maybe fuu can run a stat chart for whatever they have cooked for 11.0.5 already

[mint swift]

Yeye ikik I was just taking the piss

But yea, ilevel is main prio

[south seal]

Lies it's multistrike

[mint swift]

Ah mb

No isn’t it indestructible

For the money saving

[south seal]

Just vanish before wiping duh

[mint swift]

So true, especially with invig getting removed

[keen dome]

Speed actually

because then I have a shorter time between the AH and JC table for selling resourcefulness procs

[lilac stag]

speed trumped by AH mount

[eager locust]

why do i feel like i do tank damage in M+?

i used to play in DF season 1, I think current M+ build plays the exact same way no?

atleast thats what it seems from wowhead etc

[jaunty umbra]

cuz sub sucks rn

but the DS's playstyle is kinda the same as DF s1 yea

[eager locust]

but i feel like theres way more energy starve outside of CDs

feels so bad

[vestal escarp]

s3 not s1

[eager locust]

i didnt play in s3

[vestal escarp]

DS is like sub s3 except DN

10.2 reworked the sepc and redefined dmg profile and pace

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[jaunty umbra]

ehh i find it kinda the same in m+

[vestal escarp]

s1 you hade lower costs for builders and seal fate a huge accellerator

you're misremembering bro

[plush roost]

S1 also had 100% Lingering

Them fat gloomblades

[void hound]

DS is like sub s3 except you do absolutely no damage

[vestal escarp]

so the same

[void hound]

????????

[round latch]

[jaunty umbra]

maybe, it's been too long 👴

also i didn't play that much sub after rework

[coral fiber]

Hey all, I'm sure this has been answered ad nauseum, but how realistic is it to get 3 ST in our SB window as trickster? I've been on the dummy for a while and I'm always .5-1 sec off from fitting the last ST in

[lilac stag]

Past versions of sub and rose tinted glasses. A clsssic combination.

[pliant topaz]

Shadow blades doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work with sectech. It’s flag u want. It’s right but possible

[coral fiber]

Ok, thanks a bunch! Makes more sense, just reading the SB tooltip I assumed that 20% applied to ST.

[pliant topaz]

Nah specs very bugged. A lot of things u think should work, don’t

[stuck lance]

Do we run trickster or deaths talker for m+? Cause spread sheet shows trickster is behind but guides say trickster for aoe

[lilac stag]

assa

Deathstalker

Check back in 10 days to see if .5 patch helps

[barren plume]

What can I do to up my frames in game? I got rid of the models in wa

But I still drop a ton of frames in raid fights and m+

[fallow nimbus]

Don't give in to assa, play sub and make these pugs storm the forum how sub rogues brick their keys

[barren plume]

Lol

Power play love that

[velvet nova]

does focusing lens scale with ilvl?

[fallow nimbus]

Then new subs get no invites and go to forums too, maybe somehow someone important notices that something is wrong

[vestal escarp]

the two faces of sabotaging

not playing or straight up inting

manifestng the 11.2 rework into reality one step at the time

[hoary sun]

Ain't no rework coming until next expac my brother

[candid mural]

they just swap out our favorite talent every other patch. complete rework is gonna be done in 2034

[candid mural]

well that's the frustrating part. we see every week it can be done with other classes, but blizzard devs have no stealth detection apparently

[lilac stag]

Yes, but nothing crazy.

[warm depot]

meanwhile elesham gets a rework that makes them even crazier

and theyre losing their minds over having to farm different gear

xdd

at least they get to play the gmae

[lilac stag]

assa literally has everything you need, just comes down to if it's tuned well

sub is not designed well. people just hang on to it

shaman had a long stretch of being complete shit. so did Ret.

[glacial hinge]

so used to trickers im fumbling hard on DS XD

[graceful crown]

yeah, im getting used to DS now and im fumbling trickster 💀

[glacial hinge]

KEK XDD only in M+ raid is fine so far, but m+ im fumbling hard rotation wise

[graceful crown]

im alternating between assassin, DS sub, and trickster from dung to dung just to not go insane

doing a shit ton as sin

doing really good on st on DS sub

and forgetting that Coup exists

nothing hurts more than using coup by mistake outside of shadow dance

[glacial hinge]

nah couldnt be me, xD im 1trick sub

its becoming hardo playing DS on dung cuz no dynamic cd's xD

[graceful crown]

man i love trickster way more than ds, but im trying to optimise my dps

[glacial hinge]

same

[graceful crown]

so i have to do cringe

until anniversary when trickster hopefully overtakes ds again

and i can finally forget about htat ugly spec

[vale lagoon]

are there more updates to trickster coming?

[graceful crown]

they're fixing some bugs that are making trickster bad rn

[vale lagoon]

they are???

[graceful crown]

CP cdr and more on coup and they're fixing the nimble flurry bug iirc

[vale lagoon]

yeah flurry one is a big one

[graceful crown]

plus dust is being replaced so more build paths are opening

yeah that's the main thing keeping us on DS rn

[vale lagoon]

but where does it say that

[graceful crown]

trying to find a citation rn, i know i read it here somewhere too

if i dont come back to you, don't take my word as gospel

[vale lagoon]

ayy preciate it

[hazy breach]

Nimble bug aint fixed on ptr

[graceful crown]

must've misunderstood then

[hazy breach]

And removing dust doesnt really open up more paths, it likely just makes us play the standard DB build

Double symbols seems kinda bad

[graceful crown]

there's still time, maybe they pull a diabolical last second swap

im clinging to hope at this point

[vale pine]

11.0.5 chanegs follow the recent trend

of not improving on the spec while removing options

[uneven scarab]

[vale pine]

we luckily are extremly good in raid and mythic+

what, what does "least plyed dps spec in the game" mean?

[graceful crown]

is it weird or does it feel like those class changes they did not too long ago just made things worse along the way

it was df not that long ago and rogue still feels lopsided

[vale pine]

yes

thats why i mentioned the recent trend

e.g. they moved the 2nd vanish charge to the general tree, it made the left row mandatory for dust builds and dead outside

or premedaition removed but cttc baseline

premediation was a overall better designed talent

while taking a step back, many of the changes could be argued as good for the class

it still does not mean they are good for subtlety

[graceful crown]

Tis a shame sub has been neglected for PvE for expansions now

there are moments

but ultimately, i feel like it's not a hot take to say things haven't changed significantly

it's always been deemed the pvp spec

even if sin is better at that at this point too

[vale pine]

problem is

subtlety is only a support spec in pvp

you are there to allow others to look good

a control mage with no damage

in league of legends terms

[graceful crown]

i mean, ironically everything i touch ends up becoming a support, i used to main seraphine mid and now she's equally as trash on mid as sub is in pve

[vale pine]

i am a midlane main, nidalee was my favorite champion

but shes now a jungler

[graceful crown]

yeah, it's the sub rogue main curse :(

[vale pine]

jungle has some depth

but i am honest, its boring asf

i like the pvp aspects of league, and you have too much pve in jungle

[graceful crown]

yeah true

also fuu, i've dmed you about something, tho i think i misunderstood the prompt if we can do so about improvements

i think you meant it about your spreadsheet not personal improvements

lol

[vale pine]

oh possible, don't know exactly ^^

you dm'd me a log

[half comet]

why does blizzard add a dagger embellishment from ky veza if nobody in teh game is going to use it?

even the rogues who can only actually usei t

I would assume they would tune it kind of high cuz otherwise whats the point

[hazy breach]

[half comet]

i was looking forward to dying and seeing my log tell me the dagger was involved

[light imp]

Olaf top main. Unga bunga time

[vale pine]

for what its worth

[vale lagoon]

tbh im glad a pure rng recipe drop isn't the bis

[vale pine]

you can use it

embellishments arn't that far appart

[half comet]

i cant in good faith

[charred sandal]

siphoning stiletto sounds nice

[vale lagoon]

man trying to make this spec work in m+ is so discouraging lol

i feel like i actually do less dmg after the bp buff

[coarse egret]

Hey fellas Hoe do u recomnend to expend CDS en raid boss?

[young path]

Try doing your typical trickster opener/rotation during your first dance to build flawless stacks and roll tornado/BP spam into second dance before vanishing

There’s a couple dungeons (mists and NW) you explode damage

I’ve hit 11+ million first pull a bunch

[vale lagoon]

still trying to make ds work lol

holy

but also i rly dislike tornado lol

so i guess just L for me

[young path]

Don’t lose faith, you’ll get it

[vale lagoon]

no like i'd rather lose a bit on overall to pump harder during boss

[glacial hinge]

how so the first opener we do with Evis?

[vale lagoon]

but idk, i feel like im so abysmal during flag downtime

and then flag is annoying to use on large pulls that don't have one REALLY pronounced big mob

[young path]

As trickster with nimble yes you evis for cleave

[vale lagoon]

i rly wish this spec could play purely around dance and sectech man

[hard ember]

you can definitely kill ppl this patch

which tbh

is probably not good in terms of game design in a sense

[glacial hinge]

i mean as DS

[vale pine]

not sure i understand

is this season very bursty?

[charred sandal]

wait, is tornado trickster a thing

[hard ember]

like being able to kill someone dry as subtlety

[hard ember]

because their changes under the hood have somehow buffed smoke bomb and duel a ton is kind of probbaly not a good thing

[vale pine]

you can play it

[charred sandal]

🤔

[light imp]

i've had the same issue Transitioning to DS from Trickster smooth brain. what's kinda helped me is to just swap evis with bp and play it like trickster did. and then optimise as you get more used to the spec. i felt like i was trying too hard to lean into it as if it was a "gimmic" to be DS.

atleast for me it worked

[vale lagoon]

u mean

just ignore mark in aoe?

[light imp]

to start with, yes, thats what i mean by "optimise as you get more used to it"

but generally just Stealth SS onto a prio target, Then just spam Shuri BP instead of SS Evis

[vale pine]

its basically a bit rendundant in general

i assume its not that obviouse

[light imp]

its not perfectly optimal but its better than trying too hard to play optimal that you actually play far less optimally

[vale pine]

but shadowcraft as well as shaodw blades give you a lot of combo points

what tornado does is

it gives you a lot of combo points

but because you already have a lot of combo points many of them are wasted if used during cooldowns

so tornado isn't rly helping as much as it used to when combo points ended up a more sparse ressource

if thats too complicated of a explenation, let me know

[light imp]

once you get more used to it stealth SS will give you mark, then after like 3 or 4 BPs you just hit an evis for darkest night, but even then if you mess up all your cooldowns and alignments trying to keep up mark it'l end up being a loss than just mindlessly spamming BP

[charred sandal]

i mean it depends right, cuz since tornado ignores SB combo gen, if packs arent big enough is cooked

[vale lagoon]

true

makes sense

[vale pine]

well if packs are big enough

then you already get quite some combo points back from shadowcraft

so the gain isn't significant

so to utialize it best you might want to move it outside of cooldowns

but your damage during that isn't great

but what you can do is re-purpose it

and acellerate how fast you spread rupture for instance

[pliant topaz]

tornado litearlly doesnt work with our cds

like it litearlly doesnt work with blades

[vale pine]

^

[pliant topaz]

and 2) it wastes sht cps

because over the 4 seconds if u have sod rolling you will get 1 refund

which gets over written with the 4th storm

[charred sandal]

the point of tornado isnt filling more finishers within a dance (aoe)? or is it the same

[pliant topaz]

so it actually fully kills the sht cps

[vale pine]

the point of tornado is to compress finishers

so you can finish-finish-finish-finish

[pliant topaz]

it gives u exactly 1 more finisher in most real life scenarios

but it also costs u damage

since 1) u cant stack DM stacks

[vale pine]

but due to what i discribe, you already get most of that from other cooldowns

[pliant topaz]

2. u cant further along your coup progression

3. you cant stack flawless form stacks during it

[charred sandal]

then why we speccing it with the DS build tho?

[pliant topaz]

because deathstalker doesnt have 2/3

and theres no other points to take really

youre stuck between dogshit #1 and dogshit#2

[vale pine]

because you want to spread rupture faster ^^

[pliant topaz]

it is less bad for deathstalker though

[vale pine]

deathstalker has a lot of power in BP and rupture

[pliant topaz]

it completly works against tricksters design.

but its somehwat compatible with DS

[vale pine]

so you can use it a bit more efficiently

[charred sandal]

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-gif-8154878826743674149

the more u optimize sub the more depressed u get

[vale pine]

thats not optimization

it is just design

things follow old design constraints

but the spec design changed

and as such elements might not fit anymore

thats with tornado

and there is a diffrent thing the devs love to do especially on subtlety

to purpusfully design things in a way to contradict themselve or not fit well

it is what they label as friction

it can be good if used carefully, but its overused

[vale lagoon]

i feel like the very idea of pressing black powder is against trickster's design

[charred sandal]

not even gonna lie, i wish we had the pally/dk/warlock treatment

those mfs on a honeymoon rn

[pliant topaz]

its not blackpowder thats the problem

its storm

[vale lagoon]

it's just that i feel like the flurry is the actual core of trickster lol

[pliant topaz]

flurry is just a tool not the core

the core is coup

[vale lagoon]

and that the center role is literally all just more passive dmg for existing

[pliant topaz]

flalwess stacks

unseen blade etc.

both nimble and bp want u to press storm

because its a major dps gain for both of them

but pressing storm slows down your progression

its specially problematic in dance because u need to push 2 strikes after sectech

[void hound]

huh

[pliant topaz]

outside of dance its also a bit problematic, but this could be easily solved if they fucking showed u the icd of UB

[vale pine]

unseen blades can't proc from storm

[void hound]

yeh

[pliant topaz]

but also u need to storm

because nimble is physical

[pliant topaz]

so u want FW on other targets

or u lose just teehee xd 17% damage

its a problem I ran into trying to optimize BP for trickster after the buffs

but also getting a FW counter WA

to see if I can play around # of FWs out

the core of the spec with FW and cdr is fighting against the hero talent

[light imp]

Getting there, my usual dps with trickster, depending on the dungeon is usually around 1mil too, and i know im not playing DS optimally

this was AK 4

[wispy pebble]

i swear to god having a cd and it not being visible is so stupid

Im legit out there guessing "mh i think i can backstab now to get flawless form back"

[pliant topaz]

i can see their thought process.

all of the things theyve done so far is kinda "obvious" why they did it

problem is, usually when dealing with a situation, there are multiple levels of analysis

they seem to stop at the veyr first surface level

and ignore everything else under it

[vale lagoon]

btw, is it a back take that i think this is healthier than current deathstalker's core mechanic lol

[pliant topaz]

not very interesting as a core mechanic. but that is something we asked to get in our spec tree

[wispy pebble]

get that off my screen do you have any idea how long i had to farm that bitch

[pliant topaz]

but we got goremaw and PV and the new TFD and deaths perception instead

unlucky

[vale lagoon]

LOL

seems in line with the rest of what i heard about after i joined u guys lmao

never realized how neglected and abused we are

but yeah

goremaw has survived for remarkably long

[charred sandal]

just like kingsbane

[wispy pebble]

goremaws "no energy" effect is just useless because sub doesnt have energy issues at all unless you are in aoe without dance but there you dont want goremaw either

[ebon tiger]

my subtlety rogue aesthetic is nexus princess ky'veza abilities

[wispy pebble]

but kingsbane is viable

[charred sandal]

tru

but they just had to put artifact ability back into the tree

[wispy pebble]

Well goremaw was cool in legion

[vale lagoon]

i think kingsbane was just a much bigger part of sin's kit no

i remember actually playing around that back in legion

but legion sub was either just

kekw ss spams or dfa

right

never "goremaw sub"

[charred sandal]

yeah.. they couldve done it diff or better they just didnt :p

just like most of things

at least goremaw got spotlight on pvp back on DF

the shadowmaxxin gloomblade

[ivory swallow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger

[vale pine]

we even asked for this to become a talent

[vale lagoon]

well

maybe if all of us in this server made 5 alts

to boost the player count

mommy blizzard will love us again

oh god wtf are the emotes in here lmao

[vale pine]

[pliant topaz]

okay weird thing but i swear msot sub players that raid/m+ are in this server

like u look at the number of sub parses in normal/heroic/mythic

think about the fact that its been 4 weeks of heroic/normal

then look at number of people in this channel

and its like, thats basically us

[wind canopy]

[keen dome]

I'm doing my part

Don't forget my LFR parses 🫡

[chrome elm]

Sub boys I made a thing, please listen

[jaunty heath]

after oct 23. u dont have to play sub anymore

[chrome elm]

It's a bit cringe but pls listen to it, the chorus kinda slaps

[pliant topaz]

the chorus do be slappin

[pliant topaz]

imagine playing wow after 23rd

[keen dome]

There are new collectables

I must get the pets.

[vale pine]

can image

[pliant topaz]

i got 5 more levels last night in ffxiv

[jaunty heath]

ill just add the mythic recolor mount to this thats enough for me

[pliant topaz]

im blastin through surely

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

First time playing it?

[pliant topaz]

yeah

[keen dome]

I hope you have a good time. It's a real interesting experience with an amazing soundtrack

[pliant topaz]

my friends are plaing, and I might go join them

im playing ninja now

its pretty sick how it works

[keen dome]

I adore NIN. The mudra system is really good

[pliant topaz]

samurai looks fun too might try it out

[keen dome]

Except for doton

doton is stupid and they should feel bad for designing it

[pliant topaz]

im prob gonna raid log until 11.1 then from there we see where we go

thats the circle thingy u put on the ground right?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[spark tusk]

I like SAM

[keen dome]

the dust circle that feels bad to cast and then the tanks pull the mobs out of it

[pliant topaz]

i watched some gameplay, looks really fun! might play it after ninja

[pliant topaz]

yeah i thought so, its basically ROF

[keen dome]

Ye

I prefer VIP these days but was a NIN / GNB most of my time. Lotta fun.

[soft summit]

Did something happen to our energy regen in TWW? I feel so energy starved all the time I’m not in dance.

[pliant topaz]

I dont like the hide makes u slow, but maybe it gets better later

[pliant topaz]

that was the 10.2 rework

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[young path]

Yet somehow sims higher… 🙃

Feels weird too, but it works

[light imp]

I liked when sub was designed around Backstab and ambush with 1min Spikes where dance was literally just dance, lol

[pliant topaz]

does it though?

do you have a sim showing its better on dslice? for tricksteR?

[young path]

Yes

[pliant topaz]

can u show the sims?

[young path]

Yah, gimme a sec

[light imp]

but while i'd like QOL changes, its still my favorite rogue spec to play and i dont ever do content thats competitive enough were i fall behind, im usually top damage in M+ and one of the top dps in raids

[young path]

Oh snap, i stand corrected... using "latest" it no longer does (swear to all it was the other day LOL)

No CB w/tea & tornado:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ug7AEYvhrNLBJocdfx4Lns

No CB w/tea only:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qoPcfLbF6FsCiG3vuYe8Tw

With CB & no tea:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/grqYvmS3P5pcBiGCvhyVSK

Tea is looking kinda important in dungeon slice

[pliant topaz]

it uses it twice

its just a horrible horrible talent

offers virtually nothing

is a dps low in anything < 6 target

and a major dps loss compared to inev in single target

for trickster

[hazy breach]

Also worth noting that youre not using the override thing, so your nimble does 25% more damage than it should

[pliant topaz]

^

[young path]

no idea how to fix that...

[stuck lance]

For m+ does sub use deathstalker or trickster?

[half comet]

how are you supposed to use nado with your big cds flag/blades vs dance symbols

i assume you dont click it without the buffs

or just off cd

[young path]

ty good sir

will try it

[gleaming geyser]

Is there a build for m+ with deathstalker + shuriken tornado + dust?

Or is it strictly using tea instead :p

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker dust is not great for aoe

Its barely even better for ST

[gleaming geyser]

Why because you start running out of energy basically?

[hazy breach]

No

[gleaming geyser]

Resetting shuriken tornado could be cool?

[hazy breach]

Because dark brew works on all the plague stuff

So its just really good

[gleaming geyser]

Ah right

I've been trying out the new tornado deathstalker and its enormous dps in aoe but my ST seems meh, so useto the dust raid build i suppose

[young path]

now tornado sims higher...

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iUMAQ3Pewg9YahAWt6cHic

vs:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ikneP6rufmriyVepxNnVy5

[soft summit]

So sub rogue is essentially the bipolar of rogue specs..

[young path]

https://tenor.com/view/we-just-play-the-game-play-it-enjoy-have-fun-just-enjoy-gif-14678993

[violet torrent]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[young path]

I usually hold it until 2nd dance and I dont vanish until after using it for CDR purposes... I'm sure there is more optimal ways, but it seems to work well for me

[sinful sluice]

you dont tripple dance with deathstalker right?

[vale pine]

only trickster

[sinful sluice]

got it

[light imp]

the whole reason for triple dance is triple sectech and DS doesnt have the CDR on sectec

[sinful sluice]

also is sub not viable for m+?

[light imp]

sub is very viable for m+, jsut not MDI

[sinful sluice]

tried brew build and got like 70k dps

[light imp]

this was my last M+, it was only a +4 arakara but the point stands

[sinful sluice]

which build do you run?

[light imp]

The recommended DS Brew build on wowhead

[sinful sluice]

if i play run rogue i get like 1.7M

[light imp]

only i think that build has Folllow the blood

[sinful sluice]

and if i swap to sub i get 1/2 of that

[light imp]

we use momentum

[vestal escarp]

bro.....

now blizz is gonna see that sub has completion rate in the 1-5 range keys.....

[light imp]

lol

mind you i could def get higher with larger pulls and better gear im only at 615 and the tank wasn't big dick pulling

[sinful sluice]

what is your rotation in m+?

[light imp]

did you play trickster atall?

[sinful sluice]

i just try to follow wowhead aoe rotation but always gives shit dmg

yea

[light imp]

honestly same as trickster for the most part, just using BP at 3+ targets in place of evis

and shuriken storm at 4+

CDs on cooldown

1 dance per SoD usually

in large groups you can use a second dance and sec tech sicne the CDR is so high with shuriken storm

[sinful sluice]

you use BP on 3+ targets?

[light imp]

2 with momentum

[uneven scarab]

I thought momentum was bugged and we played follow the blood

Or was it the other way around

[light imp]

ive been using momentum and doing fine

it might be bugged and i just dont notice it, but i get the buff on my unit frames

[alpine wraith]

it is the other way around we use momentum always

[sinful sluice]

there must be something that im doing wrong

ill record my next run and see or smt

[light imp]

+7 Stonevault

was fucking around alt tabbing in discord for the latter half of the dungeon so it woulda been higher

[gleaming geyser]

Its really annoying shuriken tornado doesnt give full combo points wiwth shadow blades on?

[light imp]

tornado usually alternates between being used during cooldowns and being used outside to fuel deeping shadows

[gleaming geyser]

(Like if your hitting less than 6/7 targets

[light imp]

yeah i usually skip using tornado on small groups like that during CDs

i'll blow all my SD charges and then use Tornado to get them back after

[gleaming geyser]

Thats sad 😦 seems like a bug tho right?

[light imp]

probably

SB does say "combo point generating abilities"

and tonado is essentially just 4 Storms

[rocky wolf]

tornado does that on purpose

[soft summit]

The issue is our shadow dance and sec tech are 1 min cooldowns and SD lasts 8 seconds so we have far more downtime doing nothing then we have using our buttons pumping damage. My suggestion is to reduce shadow dance and sec tech cooldown to 30 sec and remove the talents that reduce the cooldowns.

Alternatively you could buff the talents that reduce their cooldowns but I personally think they make the class clunky

[rocky wolf]

they didnt want us taking it in ST

[gleaming geyser]

ah i guess... urgh

[jade urchin]

should i still backstab during shadowdance windows for danse macabre stacks? or shadowstrike in aoe?

since the wowhead rotation doesnt say that anymore

[alpine wraith]

nope we never bs now

[jade urchin]

aight good to know

[light imp]

Mostly just shadow strike in aoe under 4 targets or under 6 with SB,

Idk if thats what we're supposed to do but it works for me 🤣

[jade urchin]

what about secret tech? its used first spender in opener only? since it says second in rotation guide

[soft summit]

I macro shadow dance with shadow strike then use cold blood sec tech right after.

[light imp]

Second in ST under normal circumstances for dance macabre stacks. first with shadowdust in opener and tier to ensure as many buffed finishers with 4pc fall inside CDs. And on Aoe with tornado up to get as many buffed BPs out as possible

Atleast how my brain rationalizes it

[jade urchin]

figured the shadowdust, but 4set makes sense to me

thanks a lot

[wispy pebble]

with brew in m+ do we double dance?

[light imp]

I could be wrong. Get an official answer from someone

[light imp]

On bosses or in general?

[jade urchin]

if someone reads this and knows exact feel free to ping me :)

[wispy pebble]

Deathstalker -> second, trickster -> first unless you have 4 stacks of escalating blade

[wispy pebble]

general

[light imp]

I tend to do better when i have my own rationals rather than trying to conform to a 100% optimal path and then play like crap because of focusing too hard to be optimal 🤣🤣🤣

[jade urchin]

yeah i feel that but my guild wants me to spec sub for some bosses :D

[jade urchin]

thanks!

[wispy pebble]

why? Pretty sure assa is better everwhere except maybe ovinax after changes, and even there assa does well

[light imp]

Uhh. Not usually, i try to ration out SDs throughout the dungeon. Ill usually double dance on bosses or smaller groups with tornado up for a following pull to get the dances back

[wispy pebble]

i play trickster so no tornado, i double dance with flag and SB but since there is no shadowdust second dance is without SoD

[jade urchin]

ulgrax mostly but was discussed before assa bugfixes

[light imp]

With trickster i never double dances on trash

[jade urchin]

didnt check logs since wednesday

[light imp]

That's just me tho

Honestly i usually play dust m+ for trickster lol

[still crystal]

is raidbots sim apl like fucky or something cus void reaper contract for me sims higher than mandate at the same ilvl, same for my rings vs ansurek ring

[wispy pebble]

Idk im to stupid for dust in m+ haha

[wispy pebble]

I have really weird trinket sims as well, loads of dungeon trinkets simming higher than Mandate Transmitter in ST

[still crystal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m2fYSxLEUmQBu9ULnnv5cJ

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[light imp]

It's def not easy, and i have been royally fukd by tanks. But i like it. It was SUPER nice last week with the bonus cdr from xalatath

[wispy pebble]

man deathstalker sims so high but i id rather sleep on lego than to play tornado...

[light imp]

You dont like 4m damage spikes?

[wispy pebble]

i dont like the absolute clunky hell 😄

[light imp]

Granted warlocks can pull 15m dps out of their ass

Its not that clunky. I just cast it before SD rather than during

The delay lets you get setup

[wispy pebble]

also my action bars are literally full lmao

[hazy breach]

Seems fine

[light imp]

Damn. Mine feel kinda empty on rogue

[wispy pebble]

what how

[light imp]

i mean there's others that are more "less used" like potions, distract, poisons...etc

[wispy pebble]

Cant wait until i can yeet SnD

[jade urchin]

is the thistle tea change still going through?

[charred sandal]

u guys use Elusiveness or Cheat death?

[wispy pebble]

cheat death

[jade urchin]

elusiveness m+, cheat death raid

[charred sandal]

sounds about right

[hazy breach]

You generally play cheat death unless you know for sure you need elusiveness

[wispy pebble]

ive had way to many tanks turn frontals into me last second to not play cheat death

[charred sandal]

theres some m+ mechs where u just take dmg and cloaking feels wrong

example the worms on tirna

[jade urchin]

elusiveness is a godsent for every dot

[charred sandal]

also a good point

lmao

[barren plume]

I hate the poisons at the end of mosts

Mists

[wispy pebble]

if you play DS you can just use evasion as well with bait and switch talent

[barren plume]

Does bait and switch stack with elusive talent?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[charred sandal]

i play trickster for now, i am too smooth brained to take the change to DS

[barren plume]

Ooo nice

[wispy pebble]

oh damn we dont use iron stomach on M+ DS?

[hazy breach]

You can

[wispy pebble]

which talent would you replace? Shadowrunner?

[charred sandal]

been playing so long with dust and trickster im gonna have a hangover when 11.0.5 comes out

[sweet summit]

elusiveness imo

[hazy breach]

To me it makes no sense to spec out of cheat death unless you know youll absolutely need elusiveness

Cheat death is too strong

[jade urchin]

elusiveness is crazy broken too

[pliant topaz]

@spark tusk mist 9, im almost 610 me pumpin :3

[hard ember]

i wonder how bad it is to like, just hold the tornado for after symbols

and like

just let it refill your dances instead

[alpine wraith]

no you just use tornado then symbols at 3 secs

you also use sec tech there

or you can use it as a dance recharger

for db it might be better that way

[charred sandal]

man getting into keys so cooked

im overqualified and still on decline spree

[wispy pebble]

wait i dont understand, when do i use tornado? After SB ran out or ?

[alpine wraith]

you dont use tornado

bin it

give up hope it sucks

[wispy pebble]

thats what i want to hear. what do you run in m+?

[spark tusk]

Damn I need to look into playing this video game

[sinful sluice]

can anyone share new mythic+ builds? do we go back to BP now

[wispy pebble]

Eleem pinned one

[charred sandal]

nah bro im so cooked 💀

[lilac stag]

list your key?

[charred sandal]

i want to run arakara and my shit is tirna

[sinful sluice]

damn

[spark tusk]

What you want are crests and io

You'll get back to arakara eventually

[sinful sluice]

so do we use BP in raids as well?

DS fixed?

[spark tusk]

throughput more important than targetting

[charred sandal]

i pushed ma key to 6 im trynna have some fun in arakara maybe try to get the head too

also did like 4 tirnas and im starting to hate it

[wispy pebble]

how do you guys handle your ruptures at start? Tabbing? Mousover? Click?

[charred sandal]

but maybe u right i need to get 5 degrees and 2 doctorates before my curriculum looks like i know how to play the game to get to a 4

[charred sandal]

tab on my part

[sweet summit]

whats yr dps like

i want to start doing keys again i was doing 4s on assass but stopped to learn sub

[sweet summit]

i wonder the same lol

[wispy pebble]

1.2 atm

[sweet summit]

i got a long wayyy to go to get there but i bet its so fun

[sinful sluice]

with new DS AoE build, do i SS-Spread ruptures - BP - shuriken strom - BP - repeat?

no evis or backstab?

[wispy bolt]

As a mythic+ hater (I think it’s boring) this game lacks any substantive end game content outside of 2 raid days

Like I hit 2500 and I’m just done I think

We don’t do enough damage to do 12s without being a troll to the key anyways so

(Unless you’re in the top 0.1% god sub gamer category)

[steel sierra]

Am I reading the updated deathstalker AoE rotation correctly? In SD, BP is used over evis outside of darkest night on 2+ targets?

[pliant topaz]

yeah u sholuld! im getting better at my backflips too!

last boss mist on dh is a lil sus tho i dashed through so much shit LOL

[wispy pebble]

Yo is sacbrood good? I have transmitter skardyn and mad queen. Sac sims good but is listed lower tier?

[alpine wraith]

sacbrood is not as good for sub

[tribal blade]

dude imagine during SL there were invisible puddles killing people

and they bring back mists and it STILL has invisible puddles

[pliant topaz]

blizzards known fortheir consistency after all

[acoustic matrix]

Hey guys, new to Sub here. I do decently well but I feel like i could be doing much better. Any obvious flaw in my rotation ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/37VhZdqYmvaM2RgF#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=9

[wispy pebble]

Ty, are youz running trickster if you dont use tornado in m+?

[alpine wraith]

dont run what i run just use one of the builds there are in guides

[steel sierra]

Does anyone else hate how the new deathstalker AoE build/playstyle is in M+?

[tribal blade]

you know i'm kind of digging this new mindset for keys i have

i'm sort of pushing atm, but knowing if i don't get title i'm totally fine with it

it's nice

[tribal blade]

i do not enjoy how you get stuck to 1 target because of mark

and also how you have to weave in evis's that have 0 aoe potential unlike sin

[uneven scarab]

Yeah it feels so bad to play compared to sin

like trickster is brain off everything makes sense but then you play ds and its like

I have 5 buttons right now that i all want to press but i dont know what is best

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker designed for sin
Trickster designed for sub
Fatebound designed for outlaw

[wind canopy]

Surely there will be a game changing update on Tuesday

[uneven scarab]

[wind canopy]

[oak idol]

Are 11.0.5 changes buffs?

[tribal blade]

seems like a mixed bag of yes and no

flag + blades on shared 1.5 min cd (no longer having to hold flag for blades) = buff

HOWEVER blades now 16 secs = nerf

[oak idol]

Will it feel cleaner to play

[light imp]

they tried to give us QoL changes but ultimately end up being a nerf to overall damage for those who were able to play well

[tribal blade]

new ER talent = buff

[tribal blade]

the biggest thing is our big cds are now streamlined, so you never have the situation where 1 is off cd and the other isn't

[light imp]

however its easier to playoverall which should see higher damage outputs in an generalistic overall sense

[oak idol]

Yeah I was looking at playing around with it a bit again

Shadow dust pissed me off

[light imp]

never bothered me because it was just another button in your CD rotation, you used it after your first sectech and forgot about it untill next set of CDs, there was more play with it such as using it after flags CD to get SB off CD if the fight timings were worth it

[oak idol]

It didn't feel clean to me was the problem couldn't get the feel for it

[light imp]

i guess i've just been playing sub for too long, lol

[tribal blade]

it was an ability that completely removed the utility/defensive capability of vanish, so for that reason i'll not miss dust

[oak idol]

Dark brew is fun too

[light imp]

oh yeah, i hated it because it was redundant. it turned vanish into a CDR button with nothing else going for it

[uneven scarab]

The only reason i wont miss it

I sure did enjoy it though

[tribal blade]

it wasn't nearly as bad as S3+4 dust

[pliant topaz]

there are more nerfs. Dust didnt ONLY align blades to 1.5 min

it gave you dance cdr

it gave you more dances over the course of the fight

it gave you more sectechs

more sods -> rottens etc

it also gave you better cds. hence why dust bursts higher than DB which

[uneven scarab]

i am a little nervous to see how raid will feel with out it

[wispy pebble]

is tuesday 0.5?

[pliant topaz]

not this one, the one after

[wispy pebble]

shit

one more week of this m+ variasnt

i cant get above 1.1 mil dps with trickster smh

[tribal blade]

you're right, that's pretty big

[uneven scarab]

No more triple sectech without dust

[pliant topaz]

its a very weird situation idk how to feel about it

like trickster db was what 8% behind dust?

so trickster is now 5% weaker

and deathstalker is 2% weaker

weird timers indeed

[uneven scarab]

Very sus times

[tribal blade]

they need to buff sectec damage

doesn't hit like a truck anymore, hits like a housewife's minivan

[fallow nimbus]

First "mythic dps rankings" shit from wowhead will have sub at the bottom again

After patch

[uneven scarab]

Yeah i legit think it should do like 3x what it does now

Evisc literally hitting harder