I might take the time to update wowanalyzer :/
#subtlety
alpine wraith
makes sense no one plays the spec
barren plume
How dead is sub in 2 weeks
alpine wraith
well dmg wont increase much and we lose cdr
vestal escarp
we lose the less bad cdr
alpine wraith
but until it drops hard to say
formal helm
nah, they'll do smth about it 
alpine wraith
ya they will buff assa
barren plume
Oh yeah? Like all they’ve done for it since game released?
formal helm
ye dud
barren plume
Perfect
alpine wraith
i mean look at poor assa it is not doing better than BM
barren plume
Rogue is brought to raid with no raid buff other than dmg to boss and we don’t even do that currently as effective as other classes
alpine wraith
but still rogue in general is whatever rn
formal helm
Rogue is brought to raid with no raid buff other than dmg to boss and we don’t e...
ye
don't forget the dr tho
3.6%
when's the anniversary patch?
vestal escarp
i mean look at poor assa it is not doing better than BM
id rather assa first than BM 
formal helm
BM is smth, ye
vestal escarp
lust pi and most of the dmg comes from cpu controlled npcs
weary kite
Rogue is brought to raid with no raid buff other than dmg to boss and we don’t e...
Rogue gets brought because of the 3.6 percent dmg dr and it has immunities/cheat death.
barren plume
immunities and cheat death are good for sticking to a boss to ignore a mech to do dmg we dont do dmg
weary kite
Rogue damage is fine. And an immunity and cheat death at the rwf level can be the difference between an entire raid living a mechanic and killing a boss.
barren plume
so youd say rogue is average dps?
weary kite
yup
alpine wraith
id rather assa first than BM <:peepoDumb:756789041164320850>
well that wont be true ever
every time bm about to take a nerf it is a buff
raven abyss
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
barren plume
i can agree with that, but 99.9% of people arent rwf so dr/immune/cheat arent really that important. They are useful for sure but not "we must have rogue for dr and their immunity/cheat" For most that arent rwf rogue is supposed to be dmg
pulsar quarry
Damage would have to be low enough to justify leaving out the DR
Norm and Heroic are a bit different since you could go as low as 10 man, so you could leave out 2 classes if you wanted
I guess there also might be situations where you'd want more raid CDs but for most guilds you're better off having players on whatever is most comfortable and trying to form a roster to accommodate that
barren plume
yea i get that i just want more dmg guess im greedy. I think of rogue and i think big fuckin damage not DR
weary kite
i can agree with that, but 99.9% of people arent rwf so dr/immune/cheat arent re...
Any high end mythic raider will hard disagree with you, given how the ability to ignore certain mechanics allow for CDs like freedom to be assigned in better places.
Keep in mind, the Dr stacks with other buffs like MOTW and Fort giving the whole raid a couple ilvls of general survivability, for free.
alpine wraith
i mean yea dr is cool more news at 24
if we didnt have it bench it is
so thank the heavens it exists
also thankfully not many guilds have the resources to care about best comp
weary kite
def a mage slot
alpine wraith
spymaster is balanced
i love that all agi trinks suck
all the good ones were nerfed in beta because they could be used by casters
flint umbra
When you guys pop cds do you burst higher than demon hunters?
alpine wraith
not even close
flint umbra
Worse?
alpine wraith
they do like 6m-7m we do like 4m at best
flint umbra
I don’t get it
alpine wraith
but their overall dps is not super higher than ours
because we keep those 4m for a bit longer
flint umbra
Where is all the damage from sub coming from?
Cause you have a cd where all the damage is, but most of your gameplay it out of cds. Where’s the damage coming from in those moments
Cause outside of flag and SB people say you have 0 damage
alpine wraith
mostly from evis and sec tech
obtuse rivet
im having problems with that right now
obtuse rivet
:c
do u know which addon
?
bc it sucks i cant use any other spells bc my action bar changes
crimson wind
alpine wraith
what you can do is put same spells in both bars
plush roost
Yeah my stealth bar and normal bar identical minus backstab/strike and kidney/cheapshot
barren plume
hmm so my buddy needs to up his smithing then?
cause on his screen its showing as only being crafted at 632
alpine wraith
because he needs to use concentration if he does not have enough skill points or uses artisan items
quite a basic profession thing
barren plume
i dont know professions
barren plume
oh im on discord right now with him
relaying all the information about how hes a meatball brain
hmm hes maxed out with concentration and skill and its still saying 632 but when he uses sim craft to sim his craft it shows at 636
alpine wraith
then it should be fine
imagine trusting blizz tooltips
as long as the one on lower right says it goes to r5 it checks out
plush roost
Just make sure you buddy isnt using his concentration to go from r3 to r4
barren plume
he wasnt i was watching his screen, the game is just bugged
no surprise there
damn near 15k dps increase with new dagger love that
violet torrent
We could be feral druids 😉
mental comet
for parsing on 2nd boss is it better if we go down 1st or 2nd
violet torrent
I think first
Mid cds you can AoE/flurry adds right away
im not a parselord though, so could be wrong
mental comet
i feel like it is maybe yeah
violet torrent
could look at logs and see what dmg they are doing
see if its adds
in the first minute
mental comet
i see a lot who are double vanishing too
violet torrent
Looks like #1 went down 2nd set
mental comet
word
thick cedar
Is there something fundementally wrong with DS in M+ at the moment ?
I mean known issues.?
thick cedar
Is there a list I can see somewhere?
pliant topaz
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
plush roost
for parsing on 2nd boss is it better if we go down 1st or 2nd
Second set has you pulling cds with vanish, that was my rank 9 parse, first set you have cds rolling still and can nuke the bulwark add and cleave the harbingers at the same time, that was rank 7
There may be some forbidden double vanish tech but idk
alpine wraith
you can snap adds with queen's
plush roost
Yea thats pretty nice as well
mental comet
tfw no mandate
hazy breach
Is there a list I can see somewhere?
warm depot
is coup not working properly with cttc intended?
warm depot
gotcha, i kept thinking it was a bug but assumed because its not technicaly evis its intended
thick cedar
I'm 615, doing +7/8's with DS M+ spec as reccomended, And im struggling to keep up with dps.
TS with Coupe, seemed better, but the sims say otherwise. Any insight?
alpine wraith
think DS is harder to play
i wont try it so maybe some people that do can tell you
warm depot
i also wwill not play sub in keys out of my lingering self respect
thick cedar
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68F...
Thanke Eleem
shrewd lantern
think DS is harder to play
you need to keep up ruptures more for dam
but yeah
sub in m+
xdd
thick cedar
Any of you use mouseover macro for rupture?
wispy pebble
think DS is harder to play
DS feels so bad imo its wild
thick cedar
No it’s kind of useless
RS?
thick cedar
Ahh ok
wispy pebble
RS is smart spread
is it? Pretty sure only 1 spreads and main target still gets applied
left ledge
Well yeah you can just tab target I guess, if you want to make sure you’re rupturing every mob as fast as you can without changing target then a mouse over is an option
But good luck with that in a big pull
warm depot
the meme of spending 15s just rupturing before you do anything else isnt really a meme
its just boring
left ledge
It’s best to just rupture as things are being pulled, sub has no issue with reapplying mark
So if mouseover is comfortable for you go for it
But just tabbing is fine for RS
A lot of your damage, like a LOT of it is bp
(As DS)
wispy pebble
Well yeah you can just tab target I guess, if you want to make sure you’re ruptu...
trickster can only do that with sectec up else you have flawless blade issue
wispy bolt
shadowstrike can teleport you off the platform on the way to sikran
just found out the hard way
vale lagoon
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68F...
wow this is depressing
sinful sluice
hows Circlet of the Enveloping Leviathan for sub rogue bis?
warm depot
vers mast?
warm depot
high vers vs high mast
pliant topaz
it doesnt matter nearly as much as you think
vale lagoon
not a set in stone "GET THIS OR ITS JOEVER"
isn't transmitter pretty set in stone tho lol
warm depot
only transmutter is like that
pliant topaz
thats different
sinful sluice
this is my set rn
hazy breach
Ye besides transmitter theres not really any set in stone must have items, for assa the ring is too
alpine wraith
even if it is not super for us
warm depot
wtf
sinful sluice
so i guess ill just change my pants to tier
warm depot
hes just better than us
sinful sluice
and wear circlet?
alpine wraith
yea you can do that
sinful sluice
alright thanks a lot
pliant topaz
Ye besides transmitter theres not really any set in stone must have items, for a...
eleem the ptr post never came
is it joever?
hazy breach
Yep
pliant topaz
yep
alpine wraith
very joever
warm depot
joewari da
pliant topaz
gg was fun lads
alpine wraith
dont worry we are the resistance now
when people will ask what was that spec again¿?
warm depot
post for something forgotten?
pliant topaz
anything to mention bug fixes / or revrersion of flag 16sec duration/ or saying haha deathsperception was a meme, you really thought we were that bad at desining stuff for sub?
warm depot
cant fix what they dont even track themselves
pliant topaz
theyre aware
warm depot
pliant topaz
just not high on ntheir priority list
apparently mages being able to ice flow while making portals was mroe important
understandable
warm depot
very understandable
warm depot
just did weekly reclears
warm depot
a fantasy of the final variety
pliant topaz
You've got so much further to go
Is pretty fun so far! Me big ninja
spark tusk
I have rants about it it's ok, I don't like the combat as much but I got invested in the world/story and liked it basically as a jrpg in its own right. Crafting has bunches of spreadsheet gaming for me so I maxed out all the crafters. Never played ninja, was one of the ones I never got around to.
spark tusk
I intend to go back at some point and catch back up, I stopped after the first endwalker patch
warm depot
insanely good fight design
pulsar mauve
Qq regarding the bugs: how are they being passed to the devs ? Is it "just" the git and the gdoc and we hope the devs look at it ? Or is there an official place to report these ? Or is the git official (in which case it seems quite outdated ?)?
Because for all we know, maybe realz doesn't know sub is bugged to death ?
alpine wraith
they know
just low prio unlucky
maybe next patch
year decade
who knows
dont think wow will last a century but
they fixed the NS bugs
deleting the talent
pog
pliant topaz
I intend to go back at some point and catch back up, I stopped after the first e...
im probably raid logging until queens dead. then im full switching until 11.1 is out
dont think im gonna be doing farm even
alpine wraith
until it comes back again with even more bugs because you have another vers once again
pulsar mauve
deleting the talent
They are going to delete SecTech, blade and shadowcraft ?
steel horizon
yeah was just gonna say that lol. imagine all the new bugs when 11.05 actually goes live
pulsar mauve
Next patch we'll have just flag and goremaw
steel horizon
we probably gonna increase in the # of the bugs, not decrease
shrewd lantern
insanely good fight design
tbh its square enix
the single player FF games are bangers
pulsar mauve
they know
Jokes aside, how do we know they know ? Any formal acknowledgement ? Or just strong assumption? Because tbh it's near unacceptable the place sub is (bug and balance (because of bugs) wise)
spark tusk
im probably raid logging until queens dead. then im full switching until 11.1 is...
The game gave me the patience to read all quest text and actually do optional dialogue and such, I'm sure that isn't for everyone but I still enjoyed my time there
vale lagoon
hi again guys
reading guide and i see we're supposed to use versa flask over mastery
any reasons for that?
shut sonnet
You've got so much further to go
He’s collecting all the fashion 
spark tusk
He’s collecting all the fashion <a:insanecat:1093978367159717991>
There's a ton to collect!
vale lagoon
alchemical chaos is a bit rng
mastery isnt better than versa?
hazy breach
Theyre about the same, it doesnt really matter
pliant topaz
The game gave me the patience to read all quest text and actually do optional di...
i havent really read much yet
my friends said skip until the cutscenes
then after that u can pay attention
spark tusk
There's lore to be learned even early on
but for major story beats yeah
I still read it all
warm depot
aar WAS boring
but ||there are a lot of lore points and implications that are brought into light in endwalker||
it really is just amazing writing
high breach
Hi, haven't touched sub yet this expansion. Is the deathstalker mythic + build on wowhead currently the best one for mythic +?
sullen hare
aar WAS boring
aar? arr? I've played a little bit of 14 so if aar is a thing I don't know about it but arr was definitely a slog
warm depot
arr* sry you right
rocky mantle
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
tropic pier
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
weary saffron
arr is a slog but start paying attention when you start heavensward and its great
endwalker impressed me with how well it paid off decade old things tbh
steel horizon
the dungeon slice trickster build on fuu's sheet runs shadowdust without the extra vanish charge? 🤔
edgy zenith
yeeeah that's weird
surely that's a mistake
or are we REALLY in the most cursed timeline where BP is so OP that we need tea so we can spam it more
alpine wraith
it sims ok but it is kinda ass to play
steel horizon
lool
mystic bough
Is it true that subtlety is in a pretty bad spot in m+ atm or am I just very bad lol?
violet torrent
probably better to play sin or outlaw
hazy breach
Is it true that subtlety is in a pretty bad spot in m+ atm or am I just very bad...
Its pretty bad ye, but its also decently difficult so its possible youre making mistakes too
mystic bough
Oh yeah that too, I find it rather difficult to fix and align my cds if I make a mistake or fat finger a cd.
young path
Is it true that subtlety is in a pretty bad spot in m+ atm or am I just very bad...
Here is the build I'm running... (I dropped cold blood for tea, sims about 10k higher). I never expect to top meters, but it absolutely can be played at a competitive level imo
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/926ECPPscuyhW2rYusdmgn
hazy breach
Ara kara?
hazy breach
You can just not run out when he does the grip thing
And instead step somebody like <1 second before it goes of
vale lagoon
yeah i do that
hazy breach
Since it grips at like 1 second
vale lagoon
but the poison is rly hard for me
my RL is a dwarf tank and i legit cant see where he and his poisons are lmaoo
hazy breach
Poison shouldnt make you move out of melee though unless youre like 3 melees stacking literally ontop of each other
tribal blade
from a 12 SV bricked after 1st boss
sub is actually way, way better once you hit 12s with high target count
alpine wraith
yea SV is so krangled
hazy breach
Still DS or did you swap back to trick
alpine wraith
seems like ds
barren plume
I can’t for the life of me figure out first boss fight and how to parse on it
tribal blade
Still DS or did you swap back to trick
DS
barren plume
Every intermission it’s like a minute or more before adds down and he’s fed
alpine wraith
to parse you need to pad
but for boss dmg it is quite easy
you just use cds then at 1 min
then when he comes back again
barren plume
Yea i pop CDs, then when flag up use flag dance sod get the sec tec off then vanish pop blades and go
Intermission though my dps just tanks
alpine wraith
yea using cds at 1 min makes add dmg noodle
that is why using at 1 min is for boss dmg
barren plume
Hmm so don’t do that, probably need to hold for adds on mythic guilds dps ain’t doin it
alpine wraith
i like doing boss dmg more but yea for parses you need to blast adds
and for them to die just as your cds end
barren plume
How has your guild been grouping them up ?
alpine wraith
you just go into the opposite side where adds spawn
and they just walk to you
then boss spawns on that side too
barren plume
Yea I didn’t know if there was a faster way. I parsed like this today on every fight now clue why. I lag a good bit though in fights we’ll lose frames and I have a brand new pc
4070 card
Shouldn’t be dropping frames
pliant topaz
Still DS or did you swap back to trick
Im convinced trickster isnt real
trickster db less aweful but its actually a meme build
pliant topaz
its bad at everything
deathstalker has better strengths for m+
in bigger aoe it can actually do meaningful damage
uneven scarab
Yeah good point with that alone
pliant topaz
better single target (unless trickster dust but that thing does 0 aoe fr fr on a 12 or higher)
if u want actual prio/funnel deathstalkers like 20% better
it has better defensive talents
uneven scarab
ds technically less downtime too no?
You might triple dance on trickster and then just get fucked
For a minute
pliant topaz
nah thats not that important
uneven scarab
it has better defensive talents
The defensive talents alone where what originally made me wanna play it
barren plume
DS with Brew build is pumping you say
uneven scarab
At what level would you say its worth to play ds though
strange chasm
not as much as sin lmao
uneven scarab
Ofc not
Sin is legit S+ tier in keys
we aint even close to that 
but i def think we can crank out insane dam
strange chasm
2mil on ass without aug
short radish
other specs like ass?
strange chasm
rip sub
uneven scarab
True
vale lagoon
11 SV\
wow
i struggle to get above 1.3 mil..
and im pretty sure it's not ilvl or transmitter gap
barren plume
I hate transmitter it annoys me
tribal blade
you are blasting though gj gj
ty dude!
just did a 11 GB with tank not combining pulls that should be, and it's fucking rough
hexed bluff
When we using Shirken tornado in our rotation for new DS in M+?
tribal blade
and im pretty sure it's not ilvl or transmitter gap
i'm not using transmitter atm
because i don't want to commit that much brainpower
so am i going to rewire my brain for DS in keys, and then come the anniversary they're gonna bugfix trickster and we gotta switch again
@pliant topaz is it too much to think storm should give 2 CPs per target hit now
pliant topaz
<@639956635300790285> is it too much to think storm should give 2 CPs per target...
yeah pretty sure you would enver backstab ever again with that
also its not the best way going about the issue youre trying to solve with that
tribal blade
yeah pretty sure you would enver backstab ever again with that
oh i didn't think this through
at all
vale lagoon
i'm not using transmitter atm
yeah then idk what im doing wrong in keys lol
tribal blade
yeah then idk what im doing wrong in keys lol
what helped me transition was just sitting on the target dummies every day
so that i could engrain DS aoe rotation into my head
since all my instincts are trickster
vale lagoon
what helped me transition was just sitting on the target dummies every day
idk
in an actual dungeon the cds are just so miserable
tribal blade
it is pretty miserable right now
hopefully it's better in a bit over a week
i'm looking at the talents on the ptr trying to figure out an M+ build
god not being able to have vigor anymore
pliant topaz
oh i didn't think this through
nah happens
but like i get why u want that though
and i think there are better solutions
more interesting solutions
also i just timed 12 NW almost 2900 pog
tribal blade
more interesting solutions
100%
pliant topaz
2.2M overall no aug
tribal blade
also i just timed 12 NW almost 2900 pog
HUGE
vale lagoon
it is pretty miserable right now
i mean u still manage to make it work
pliant topaz
sin stonks L;OL
tribal blade
traitor
vale lagoon
i just dunno how to not lose casts of our cds
pliant topaz
okay but u think ill get invited to keys as sub?
vale lagoon
while still having them up for bosses
tribal blade
lol HELL no
pliant topaz
i got kicked from an 11 i tried to get into to reroll my key
tribal blade
yeah it's pretty bad right now
surely sin gets nerfed right
or they still need to throw more buffs at sub
silent ruin
With flagellation 1 min cd, n 2 min cd on blades, won't sub be a legit alternative to sin
pliant topaz
surely when i tell the pugs with LF FDK AUG that i have 2 sod charges
tribal blade
does this work
pliant topaz
theyre gonna change their mind
pliant topaz
does this work
okay ill give u a lil numbers for nwo
DD + inev is about 6.5 -7%
pv is almost 0
deaths perception is about 2
pliant topaz
because it gives u 3% sod damage
now, the 2nd charge does some interesting things for the supercharger talent
however, is it enough to make up 5%?
no
tribal blade
so just full commit the 1 symbols charge
shadowfocus makes me so mad now
to look at
quiet zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
pliant topaz
shadowfocus makes me so mad now
Well u see, one of the important lessons we learned in dragon flight talent trees is that it’s a really bad design to make dps talents compete with utility
Now, you’re a busy designer working on mage and paladin and literally everything but rogue. And they tell u, u gotta move shadow dance back to sub only cuz people on forum big mad
So u do a lil swaperoo, because making a new talent takes time and passion and u ain’t got time for that
But now u got a dps talent competing with utility and u know max on stream is gonna make fun of u if u make dps compete with utility
So u have a genius idea, u nerf the talent so it’s completly worthless, then u put it there, now people can’t complain, because it’s a dead node not a dps node!
tribal blade
So u have a genius idea, u nerf the talent so it’s completly worthless, then u p...
my god you're a genius
btw i got a 12 on the board
it's finally done
tribal blade
bro it was a low IO tank
and he did some very sus route choices
we also had nobody who could pull through the maze
like we fought the 3 pack after 2nd boss
and i had to send cds on it
and i was crying
mists btw
pliant topaz
Yeah I’ve noticed tanks and healers are super sus right now
They’re rare; so they get free io
Like I did a 13 dawnbreaker and we ended up with 130% trash
tribal blade
huHHHHH
pliant topaz
Or like I did a 13 mist with a resto shaman
All 3 dps rotted and died during p1, he said it’s because u guys suck and it lasted too long.
Plot twist, it was the literally first puddles
He had 0 kicks the entire dungeon and was at 450k how
Hps
pliant topaz
U find some
Special creatures here…
pliant topaz
Yeah a lot of fotm re rollers
tribal blade
any time you want to see if someone is a fotm rerollwer
you look at what they did utility wise
like kicks/cc, etc
tribal blade
because fotm players tend to tunnel the rotation since it's newer to them
pliant topaz
Yeah it’s real weird. Dude I did a 13 vault today, first pull was all of first hallway + the first golem group on the left
vale lagoon
oh yeah
pliant topaz
2Nd pack was the right golem group + double golem
vale lagoon
for a 12 u meant
pliant topaz
That was terrifying
vale lagoon
just did an 11 mist with a bunch of 2.8k folks
tribal blade
Yeah it’s real weird. Dude I did a 13 vault today, first pull was all of first h...
i bricked a SV doing that route haha
the pack on the right pulled
vale lagoon
they did the +2 route
tribal blade
the right golem at the end
vale lagoon
even with max aoe padding i only had 1.4 mil overall
pliant topaz
Dude my health was literally dropping to 0 and back to full it was a vibe LOL
pliant topaz
We bricked to the dumbest shit but yea
tribal blade
the problem with taht pull is getting kicks
it's a long run
and there's the fears going out
tribal blade
oh might have had to tell the rsham in the group i did it with
pliant topaz
I don’t. I don’t enjoy it
tribal blade
hahhhaaaa oh nooo
pliant topaz
I really try to make sub work but like legit I’m holding people back
formal helm
pliant topaz
TLDR cd reduction is fine imo, duration reduction shows they haven’t played the spec since 10.2
tribal blade
I really try to make sub work but like legit I’m holding people back
yeah it's rough
formal helm
I really try to make sub work but like legit I’m holding people back
yep...I know the feeling...
vale lagoon
<:pins:433007514825523202>
lmao what are these emotes in this server
tribal blade
they are just sending changes with 0 thought of how it impacts the spec
pliant topaz
That was my point when I made my post tbh.
pliant topaz
Like all my comments were these are changes made to do very obvious low hanging fruit changes. Works for sin/outlaw but it makes sub worse. Ever change was like that
vale lagoon
they are just sending changes with 0 thought of how it impacts the spec
i saw the list of bugs u guys sent earlier tho, and i feel like it's more just kinda carzy how they would just leeroy jenkins talent reworks instead of first fixing those and see if sub comes back to life
tribal blade
every time they do this shit it digs sub into a deeper hole
tribal blade
i saw the list of bugs u guys sent earlier tho, and i feel like it's more just k...
yeah it's really bad, but what can you do
vale lagoon
yeah it's really bad, but what can you do
i'd say learn ds playstyle
but i feel like i already got it down pat, and it doesn't help me at all
tribal blade
we have 0 power so we just sit here yapping about it all haha
swift moth
how do the changes make sub worse though?
pliant topaz
It was more tolerable when we had realz talking to us, sharing his thoughts listening to concerns. Even if at the end he would ignore most of them.
Just being heard was nice
Now it feels like they’re just trolling you, and I’m sitting here confused like why are you doing this
And there’s no one to talk to
tribal blade
Now it feels like they’re just trolling you, and I’m sitting here confused like ...
because 0 incentive to make sub better 😦
formal helm
idk, there's 0 logic behind most of the changes
pliant topaz
Okay the logic is there
It’s pretty obvious what the changes are doing
But it’s very surface level thought process that doesn’t actually think about impacts
vale lagoon
It was more tolerable when we had realz talking to us, sharing his thoughts list...
wait what
swift moth
it just seems like they removing shadow dust then making it an overall 90sec spec without needing shadowdust
vale lagoon
there's someone in here who gets to ignore/accept what we say?
tribal blade
realz is a dev and during the big rework he would come in here often to talk with us about it
pliant topaz
Not anymore
pliant topaz
Blizz cut off communication mostly
tribal blade
and now they mainly look at places like the forums (omegafuckinglol)
formal helm
forums are the best way to balance guys!
tribal blade
the forums is full of 90% people who do like half of lfr and a few +2 keys in a season
uneven scarab
surely they are and not total fucking chaos full of the worst things youll ever read
tribal blade
like i've actually looked at profiles whenever i see some sus comments
it's alawys those people
formal helm
ofc
tribal blade
and they're everywhere
uneven scarab
if they are actually looking at forums to take ideas this game is fucking doomed
pliant topaz
They’re part of player base
tribal blade
true, they are
pliant topaz
They have a right to voice their concerns as much as anyone else
It’s up to devs to find a balance
tribal blade
i think i'm jaded from the forums from arguing with people in there haha
now i never respond to people talking shit
pliant topaz
Oh I get it! I just move I’m on, no point arguing with people. Last time I argued with someone I realized they didn’t even know shadow dance had damage modifiers
tribal blade
classic
uneven scarab
i refuse to go on them for the most part
formal helm
Oh I get it! I just move I’m on, no point arguing with people. Last time I argue...
there's no way..
vale lagoon
so how bad is it
to be 100k behind my sims
on 5 target dummies
because i feel like it's within range, and i get the action prios of the ds playstyle
but then i go into a dungeon and i feel like im doing the same dmg as i did on trickster 5 ilvls ago
tribal blade
but then i go into a dungeon and i feel like im doing the same dmg as i did on t...
depending on your key range you can probably not commit to spreading rupture that much
BP does a lot of dam now
you only really get value out of rupture if stuff lives long
vale lagoon
depending on your key range you can probably not commit to spreading rupture tha...
im playing 10s and 11s
pulling about 1.2 mil to 1.4
and i feel like i should be doing more right
tribal blade
i find stuff lives quite a short amount of time in a 10-11
vale lagoon
623 ilvl, no transmitter but right stats and everything...
tribal blade
it depends on the dungeon and how the tank si pulling too
sub has a very, very noticable bump in dps when pulls are combined
vale lagoon
i should still do more than 1.2 mil overall even in a standard 1 chest route right
tribal blade
i haven't done many dungeons w/o an aug recently so i'm not 100% sure
vale lagoon
ooooh
vale lagoon
i haven't done many dungeons w/o an aug recently so i'm not 100% sure
oh but can i see ur character lol
oak idol
Just play sin rogue and do 2m without an aug
vale lagoon
Just play sin rogue and do 2m without an aug
really not a huge fan of poison tbh
green is a nasty color
oak idol
green is a nasty color
I can understand loving the big burst numbers
chrome lake
hi guys are there any rogue streamers sticking with sub? would like to see how it goes
oak idol
hi guys are there any rogue streamers sticking with sub? would like to see how i...
Probably Kush but I haven't watched for a bit
dry plank
He is playing sin in m+
spark tusk
I really try to make sub work but like legit I’m holding people back
How's your dh doing?
I made one and started to level but barely got anywhere because I got stuck in WA hell
pliant topaz
How's your dh doing?
i really really like it
im getting so good at my dashes and backflips
ive done all the dh stuff too!
u know the area of the 2nd boss GB?
i dashed off the edge into the lava
i backfliped into the first boss NW frontal
im donig all the DH classics
but also specs super fun
pliant topaz
I made one and started to level but barely got anywhere because I got stuck in W...
oh no whats going on with your WA stuff
hard ember
i should still do more than 1.2 mil overall even in a standard 1 chest route rig...
i would consider sending literally all your cds on cd tbh so you don't have to rely on lining up against literally every other spec right now it seems
and then like, realign them on bosses because you're kinda only gonna get one cast anyway
vale lagoon
i would consider sending literally all your cds on cd tbh so you don't have to r...
ofc that's the goal
hard ember
if you pull fast, you can flag at the bottom of a pack and carry the mastery buff into the next one
etc
vale lagoon
eh
hard ember
it's like
hard ember
tbh it feels to me doin 10s and stuff taht you're not like playing the key to optimize for dmg
but to race the other dps
no you're not
it triggers off bp
vale lagoon
...dang
hard ember
like the stacks you have built just give you the buff
vale lagoon
yeah honestly i think this reliance on flag is what's rly giving me issues
hard ember
send shuriken on cd imo, to give yourself cdr
vale lagoon
fucking hate that spell
hard ember
i think 1 minute flag felt way better
in slands times
and while current blades is incredibly powerful
vale lagoon
i was around for dragonflight season 1 and also the dfa thing, those made a lot more sense to me lol
hard ember
that iteration of blades that "fixed" sloppy dance charges, etc
like ideally you're like full sending a vault of the incarnates esque like
big ass sectec
wehther or not you have flag kinda
vale lagoon
just a real shame
hard ember
cuz you've cast enough abilities
one saving grace i think is like you legitimately do so much more single target than the dungeon build of sin or something
also like uh the same scenario that was in slands where like sub actually felt like the safest spec cuz like ss bp was so noncomittal
is completely real
focus your mob that you have to kick
and then run around if you have to
smacking ss bp
if it's really dangerous
press symbols on cd (though now you really want to be autoin something, litearlly anything you can right)
hard ember
that's fine though
consider sending it on the mob that ppl are targeting for their cleave to steal their dmg
short radish
also like uh the same scenario that was in slands where like sub actually felt l...
this is why i enjoy bp spam
hard ember
like if you're playing with a sin rogue
you should proabbly send your mark on the kb target 🙂
hard ember
if you see a mob with void torrent on it, that's a big arrow pointing to where to hit
it's a 10/11 and you're doing 1.5m apiece probably right
short radish
we're very spiteful in here im realizing
if we can't have fun, nobody can
hard ember
like you can wipe 3 times and time
especially since your single is super good so bosses don't drag
vale lagoon
it's a 10/11 and you're doing 1.5m apiece probably right
nah im struggling to be 1.2 or 1.3 lol
i feel like i just can't use flag well
hard ember
if you mess with their dmg you will make more of your own happen 🙂
i'm literally not even really joking that hard here
keen path
Are there times where you start a pack and you dont have symbols or dance up? Ive learnt that sometimes its better to only use 2 dances and 1 symbols with blades/flag just so you have your symbols up for every pack. With trickster/dust that is
hard ember
like the way you should probably play sub in high key is probably like how you used to in slands with venthyr like to use its defensive flexibility and noncommital dmg to create moments where you can burst super hard and make a pack nonthreatening (probably have it be chained after the problem mobs died or somethin) etc
but
spark tusk
im getting so good at my dashes and backflips
That’s fun. I’m interested to try it out more, maybe even Veng
hard ember
in like a lower key you should be racing the other dps for dmg prio
spark tusk
oh no whats going on with your WA stuff
Oh nothing, just getting to level 12 and realizing oh I should probably make some WAs, then realizing I’m about to just spend several hours making a full DH pack before I start actually playing
Happens every time I make a new character
vale lagoon
in like a lower key you should be racing the other dps for dmg prio
hmm i dunno tho, i feel like without flag i literally can't
vale lagoon
i swear im bugged somehow to not have the black powder buffs lol
oh but also pls no tornado
i hate that
hard ember
lets say you walk up to a pack with a dance and change, a symbols
and tornado up right
vale lagoon
i run wm + symbols duration thingy
hard ember
like you should probably strike to put on a mark, rupture it, symbols tornado
and hit your dance, bp bp evis sectec
your strike will be faster than everyone else's global, so you can count rupture as 1
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
6 globals in
all your dmg came out
the smallies ALL belong to you
sub has the fastest dmg
vale lagoon
wait is evisc not our 2nd finisher in dance?
vale lagoon
yes
hard ember
if you have a tdn then send it before you mess it up
etc
like you don't want to munch them
etc
vale lagoon
but i thought we prioritize sectech over the buff
hard ember
it doesn't really matter though my point is like
vale lagoon
i was looking at the sim actions
vale lagoon
ooooh
hard ember
that's the whole point of what i'm trying to get at
like it's not total dps that matters per se
but like the most dmg you can do in a dps period
there's a finite amount of dmg that can be extracted from a pull
as the pulls grow longer thats when you should probably play more and more properly
if that makes sense
because like if you're patient with your line ups, trying to emulate the way the sim plays it etc etc
you're not accounting for the fact that when the sim is sending its go
you're walking to the next pack after doing tank dmg
like this sounds a bit troll, as if you're like inting to make your meter look better
vale lagoon
there's a finite amount of dmg that can be extracted from a pull
that's the part im not getting lol
hard ember
but if you do this
the packs die faster
and the key is easier to time
like i'm joking about hitting the KB target btw
that is crazy
behavior
vale lagoon
because it always feels like trash is dying like halfway thru the cd to my 2nd symbols
hard ember
it's funny to think about though
vale lagoon
not that they're dying b4 i can even use up my flag
hard ember
so in that sense, it can be worth to save the flag a bit later into the pull
get the full flag out
and then have the buff going into next pack when you blades
and send another tornado and boom
vale lagoon
nonono im saying i do get to use the flag
hard ember
the fuck out of that pack
yeah
i know
you're sending flag at a reasonable time early in the pack
then you get to the buff
everything is dead
hard ember
then you spend a lot of time walking wiht a gorillion mastery
vale lagoon
but they don't live until i can do another smaller rotation with the 2nd/3rd symbols
hard ember
your dance
if you know you're gonna cap dance i mean never do that right
but like
if you don't
hard ember
then you can enter the next pack with 1.5-2 dances
etc
cuz you're always always going to find symbols
no matter what
if that makes sense
you're sending that on cd unless the mobs are literally dead on the first two globals or something
in that sense you'll always get 2 symbols in a pull
vale lagoon
i mean actuall yeah
hard ember
but lets say you send your dances for fun after you've sent a big cd set
like those dances are kinda mid
but like
vale lagoon
i feel like im always in situations where i won't have symbols up by the start of the enxt pack if i send it
hard ember
sudden you do nothing on the next pack when, say, a tornado is coming up
vale lagoon
but i'll have like a few seconds of just sitting there facerolling shuriken - bp
if i dont
hard ember
or your flag is almost ready etc
i think at the end of a pack
if you're not like dancing etc
that's when the mark will probably feel pleasant ish to play around
cuz those bps aren't very high value either
but upi can send those evises on like dying stuff
idk like ultimately you will get to a point where like
you'll be able to comfortably flag every pack
and then that will feel a lot better porbably
maybe somehwere around 14-15
hard ember
no
vale lagoon
if we're spending too long on each pack we're just not gonna time
hard ember
not really
vale lagoon
unless we're doing mdi big pulls haha
hard ember
what happens is the pulls take longer, so you pull bigger
so while it looks like the dps is "getting higher"
vale lagoon
oh yeah, there it is...
hard ember
what really happens is like
the pulls are getting more dangerous
and surviving for a longer time period
because your dps isn't going to get better on the same pulls you did in lower keys
the way to think of it is probably something like uh
you do stitchflesh room in 3 parts, each taking 1 minute each
vale lagoon
oh yeah i understand the idea
vale lagoon
but if the spec is only gonna be playable at that lvl
idk if im good enough for it lol
hard ember
it's not only playable at that level
you have to adjust how you play at different levels
that's kind of the beauty of m+ right
like how do i put it
when i play sin in key right now
i am 100% not opening with like "okay lets try to cast this envenom before hitting dm and then i shiv and kb to have the most coverage"
i'm going way fast
ambush garrote rupture rupture garrote muti, i'm at 7 combo points? who cares, kingsbane deathmark envenom shiv
this is your equivalent of that in a sense
it's way easier on sin because it's like more straightforward right
you're giving up overall dmg to make it happen faster
vale lagoon
if we're in that much of a rush to do dmg tho
hard ember
on sub it's like you're borrowing your future dmg on credit
vale lagoon
should we maybe jsut stick to trickster in keys up to 11
hard ember
at some point you'll pay for it
or maybe you won't
cuz you have to run for a while
or ther'es rp
etc
yeh
i really like trickster
but that's because it almost plays like bfa outlaw to me
you just full send all the time a single target rotation
vale lagoon
yeah it feels a lot better
keen path
Trickster is better in my opinion. There arent many big aoe pulls in pugs that makes ds worth it imo.
hard ember
tbh deathstalker has it a bit rough imo
vale lagoon
u don't have to think about target choice
keen path
Ds is a bait
hard ember
cuz like having garrote silence in huge huge pulls as sin feels very very safe
keen path
Well we did for those few big pulls like first necrotic pull
hard ember
it will be insane
keen path
Honestly, sub damage isnt as bad as everyone says. Yeah theres frost dks, ret pallys, but compared to most the other specs youre pretty on par with them
vale lagoon
yeah i think i just gotta go back to trickster for now
keen path
Its just managing your cds and making sure youve got something for each pack
vale lagoon
i mean it's literally not possible tho
hard ember
Well we did for those few big pulls like first necrotic pull
necrotic is so fun
vale lagoon
symbols and dance don't feel like "something"
keen path
Symbols and dance do alot of damage without flag
vale lagoon
also, what do u guys think about the tea + dust build for m+ lol
hard ember
@weary saffron probably has better advice than i do, he's been playin a ton
i think dust in m+ is probably good
but it's probably the most precise
keen path
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuSjbawZ038
Watch this guy and just do what he does. His damage is great. He is geared as hell though but you get the gist of it
hard ember
spec that like you like
could possibly play
okay but like mists is like cheating right
because when you play sub in mists
you like
keen path
He has other videos of other dungeons
hard ember
you know that dungeon so so well
also i would play trickster in mist probably
the mark is so so bad
for so many reasons
there
vale lagoon
OH and he's trickster
vale lagoon
yeah i just played ds in mist like
4 times today
hated it so much
but gosh
i just wish they could fix the bugs
hard ember
on ingra i literally ambush ingra before hitting the tree btw
and i just rupture him casually
so the mark is never on the tree
etc
it's so trap
there's so many weird situations
vale lagoon
oooooh
hard ember
you get like ct
vale lagoon
nvmnd
hard ember
and you tab rupture
on sub it's like you can pretty easily get it back
but it's still really annoying
cuz you lose a tdn
or you can
and you wanted taht tdn to send into the burn etc
keen path
The only bad thing about trickster is the rare moments ur spamming backstab for 10secs trying to get a flawless stack
If they made flawless always up, and the damage buff come from the stacks that would be great
hard ember
tbh
i think it's okay to be just doing SS rupture
outside of dance
if some unfun stuff is happening
even on trickster
like
you're going to actually get yourself killed
trying to make it happen
and that's also like cooked cuz you're not really doin dmg
like when you finally get to it you're going to have flawless form just dancing
like there s no way
you know what i mean
it's like you weigh the upside - "this is technically more dmg"
vs the downside "i am standing here hitting perma backstab on mobs like i'm tunneling in cds when i'm literally not"
etc
it's like the same scenario as the ss bp stuff right
but opposite
that feels good because like you don't ever put yourself in danger
this feels like you're going out of your way to do so in a sense
chrome elm
I do dust trickster in M+ and Raid and seems to be working out OK, but I see more and more running DS brew in raid and m+
Is there a m+ lvl it makes sense to start a swap? I only do 4-7s rn
chrome elm
Is DS massively outperforming trickster on single target?
jaunty heath
It’s better on raw st with no damage amps, trickster is burstier and fits some fights better because of their timers - tripple dance is burstier than deathstalker
And obviously trickster cleaves which benefits some fights
chrome elm
OK makes sense - so having played basically no DS, it seems easier cause you are not balancing vanish CD reductions, is it just the standard sub rotation or anything special to note?
tribal blade
OK makes sense - so having played basically no DS, it seems easier cause you are...
the hardest part about DS is managing your marked target to be quite honest, this becomes a thing when you're doing a fight with multiple mobs/M+ settings
we don't have it nearly as bad as sin though, it's really tragic for sin if you fuck it up
for sub if you mess it up you can always reapply/swap targets with dance
or vanish
i think the entire marked target thing of DS is somewhat fine, it's just the fact that it's so complicated to deal with because you can only reapply it from a strike/ambush from stealth
if would be a massive QoL improvement to make us able to apply mark with any strike or backstab, and for sin ambush+mutilate
dry plank
True dropped few times mark in m+ and tank making chainpulls half dung feel really bad as sin ahaha
tribal blade
yeah it's truly horrible imo
chrome elm
Prophet are you Prophethood?
tribal blade
sub is truly in dire straits if i'm on top
vale pine
oh am i number 1 now
congrats
tribal blade
<:dracthyr_love:1002454142524067861> congrats
haha thanks ❤️
keen dome
Well deserrved, you are putting some wild effort into our beloved idiot spec
tribal blade
#1 most stubborn sub rogue
i can see sub being ok to play right now (very lukewarm ok) if you can get your tank to do some big pulls
as soon as your tank start splitting pulls your dps just starts to go kaput
keen dome
Yeah
tribal blade
it basically feels like anything below 7 targets you're not really cruising
and then once you're at 7+ you're vibing
basically once you can guaranteed generate full CPs with every cast you're golden
so i guess that would actually be more like 6 then
keen dome
You are running DB, right? I can't recall.
tribal blade
yeah i am
chrome elm
That's actually why I wrote on about DS to start with
tribal blade
i was running DB with trickster even
chrome elm
I saw you running CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAAAAAzyYmlJYBmZmZmZmZmZMzMmtxgZbbmZMzMDGzsMbDAAAAzgx2iZZgBsAWGmBMLwA
keen dome
If nothing else that gives me a bit more excitement for 11.0.5
chrome elm
Is that more a build for max keys like u do, or u think it'd perform OK in medium keys too?
tribal blade
yeah being able to run 1.5 min cds with DB will be interesting
keen dome
Also Supercharger (if it works)
I've been playing Outlaw on my second rogue (transmog farming via the catalyst) and I really like how it feels just having Vanish for crackshot.
tribal blade
Is that more a build for max keys like u do, or u think it'd perform OK in mediu...
oh yeah this is just the standard build the sub rogue theorycrafters found after the BP buff
it should perform fine in medium keys, just no need to spread rupture much if your key level isn't that high
keen dome
Sounds comfy.
tribal blade
i might try swapping out silent storm with WM and inev for lower count dungeons
or for dungeons that require nuclear boss damage
vale lagoon
i think the entire marked target thing of DS is somewhat fine, it's just the fac...
the entirety of deathstalker is just so unwieldy in m+ settings
tribal blade
you could also probably swap out nado too
vale pine
as soon as your tank start splitting pulls your dps just starts to go kaput
i like the word kaput, its soo german
tribal blade
i like the word kaput, its soo german
haha ja! i went to a german high school 🙂
vale lagoon
hard focus target with mark + only reapply with single target finisher
tribal blade
it was mandatory for me to learn german up until i was ~15 years old
vale lagoon
trickster just flows so much better
tribal blade
once i got used to trickster i prefer it over DS
but DS is better right now for sure
keen dome
it does, but at least Sub can easily reapply marks.
But trickster just feels easier to work with.
Except for the charge.
wispy bolt
id imagine in practice for 99% of player in m+, trickster is better because its easier
tribal blade
although trickster might be the play in some dungeons to be quite honest
like mists
wispy bolt
tracking marks in massive packs is wild