#subtlety

1 messages · Page 7 of 1

haughty mural
#

the amount of well thought options

alpine wraith
#

but i quite liked it

red vortex
#

tww is just started

#

perhaps it blooms into something nice

vale pine
#

tww has some improvements

alpine wraith
#

tbh my fav sub would be MoP or WoD at the end

vale pine
#

e.g. you have no legendary grind/rng

alpine wraith
#

it played so well

red vortex
#

oh yea its deffo better in some aspects

vale pine
#

you do have a weekly vault, which is a qol over legion

#

and you have less required content

alpine wraith
#

legion also was cool when we had the whole super blades terminator or dfa

#

but not quite as much

vale pine
#

dfa is my favorite

#

simply because i think shorter cooldown timers

#

worked soo good

alpine wraith
#

tbh my fav would be bfa by far if only tuning was not so bad

vale pine
#

big burst every 30 sec

#

vs. 50 sec afk for 10 sec of burst

haughty mural
vale pine
#

but to come back to choice, i think the dev team did a great job showcasing whats possible with the sin tree

red vortex
#

ill never forget

#

fallen avatar

#

to just fly to the middle

vale pine
#

even tho their single target is "one build" kinda

red vortex
#

when pressing DfA

vale pine
#

the amount of talent combos that work in m+ or non single target

haughty mural
#

or maiden

vale pine
#

is rly high

#

you can still do that

#

with coup

alpine wraith
#

also btw fuu after buff ovi nax egg is quite good for slice

haughty mural
#

true

alpine wraith
#

if you didnt sim it again

haughty mural
vale pine
alpine wraith
#

it has a bit higher stats than knife

vale pine
#

ye its good

alpine wraith
#

if only we could get 639 knife

wild vine
#

The ovinax egg is an abomination

#

Ngl

#

Probably the one trinket rn that Id never play willingly

vale pine
haughty mural
#

agreed

#

transmitter >>>>>>>>>>> egg

hollow cobalt
#

I love transmitter + contract

dry plank
#

!wax

wicked joltBOT
#

Bubbling Wax can once again be applied to weapons of all levels
There might still be bugs and odd things happening to it that hasn't been tested yet, but it seems to be working based on initial testing

dry plank
#

turns out it is not appliable again

#

ahahaah

#

fuking blizzards fart again with some updates

tulip token
#

Working for me right now

image.png
tulip token
alpine wraith
#

likely a 639

tulip token
#

I don't have one to test it, but it is working on my 636 stabber

dry plank
tulip token
#

That is really weird then

#

This was after the screenshot I just took before

#

So it is letting me apply it

alpine wraith
#

im having quite a lot of fun using mandate to snipe mobs

haughty mural
#

i wish i had one

sly shore
#

The 35M crits on first boss of mists

merry agate
#

I have the looming thought that we might have another BfA situation on our hands OMEGAKEKW ignore third rog specc whole expansion

sly shore
#

so another shadowlands

#

and dragonflight

#

and bfa

#

and legon

merry agate
#

Or they'll knock it out of the Park with sweeping changes in the near future

vale pine
#

11.1 will fix it

#

and if its not 11.1 then 11.2

merry agate
#

BfA remains in memory for me because it was so bad you were almost forced to play ass/outlaw xla

vale pine
sly shore
#

If not 11.2 then 12.0

vale pine
#

thats not too far off

sly shore
#

a year probably

vale pine
#

iirc the idea is to have 12.0 after 11.2

#

think blizz aims for a xpac every year

sly shore
#

time is going fast

vale pine
#

or more realistically 14-16 months

sly shore
#

2 months from now I'll be in Japan

vale pine
#

oh, sounds lovely

#

have fun

sly shore
#

I'm going from 5th December to 4th January

#

the great reset

tulip token
sly shore
#

I might drop without a trace on queen

#

that movespeed is stinky

dawn plume
#

guys should i just give up on sub and learn assa

near rivet
#

if you have doubts, go assa

dry plank
tulip token
# dry plank yep

Both people that I have seen have this bug were on EU. But weirdly enough zac is also EU (Outlaw Rogue) and he can apply it to his 636 crafted axe

#

So im at a loss right now

dry plank
#

eather way we live in future or in past

brittle rain
#

Maybe because it just can be applied to MH? Or do you get the error message?

dry plank
#

error message

#

"Target is too high level"

#

relog and reload and completely logout login did not help

#

i even switched to my off hend 619 ilvl and still got error

#

restriction is reverted for my character coz I was able to put it on 564 ilvl dagger

vestal escarp
#

Nah 12.0 will be the big doom over again

#

When sub is left lackluster of the new midnight power system

near rivet
#

more bugged talents in the new champion hero tree designed for assa and its skills remapped to sub counterpart

keen dome
#

If Sub is bad in midnight I will be very sad since the vibe is all shadowy stuff

hollow patio
#

Eyo guys, quick question since the buff from BP is huge and only trickster is good in 2 target, is there a reason i aint seen any logs with DS in bosses with adds like Rasha, blood etc?

wild vine
vale pine
#

haha some in here just like to exraggerate

#

there is just a track history of neglection for many years

#

so many times when problems come up

#

subtlety feels like a victom, and its a bit of a toxic reaction

#

but hard to fix

#

rogue is still a 3 spec class, and so the easiest comparison is between the 3 specs

#

first thing anyone would do is

#

look at what the other has

#

grass is always greener on the other side, so ofc you start pointing out the good things

#

each spec has its problems, it just a matter of perspective how big each one is

#

e.g. as we discussed recently, for many stealth is a big topic

#

it is a active problem people feel bad about in mythic+ on assassiantion

#

but for subtlety, it is irrelevant

#

and there are a lot of similar problems, which exist for one and not the other specs

#

so taking this perspective, all 3 channels will talk about problems

#

but ofc, we don't stop there, there are many other things to compare to and data

#

and one of the big metrics i personally think is valuable is player count

#

it is absolutely impacted by tuning, but there are general trends

obsidian steeple
#

Why did they make Shadowstrike a thing? couldnt it have just been ambush but buffed?

haughty mural
#

of all the things - what the hell is wrong with shadowstrike lol

vestal escarp
vale pine
#

popularity comes from many things:

  • How people see the world --- User Experience
  • Tuning --- Is the spec good
  • Design --- How nice is the gameplay loop
  • Exposure --- How much changes does a spec get and if it gets changes, how likely are they worth to highlight
obsidian steeple
#

just autism, like how they removed heroic strike for warriors, just nostalgic autism

vale pine
vale pine
#

ill shortly illustrate what i mean

tender grotto
vale pine
#

World View:
WoW is a old game and as such has a lot of established opinions.
E.g. if you look at the last 3 years, the amount of new users is less than 10% of the total player count

image.png
#

As such there are certain established opinions.
E.g. just very roughly.
The very classic xpacs did play what is the closest to outlaw currently, so many players are more favorable towards that spec if they played that period of time.
For the more modern cycle (Legion+) you had Assassination as the dominant spec, sometimes the best spec for raiding for 3 or 4 years even.
And Subtlety seems to be the PVP spec in classic but isn't for a long time anymore the clear winner in pvp.
Outlaw also established a Mythic+ niche in BfA due to very good tuning, and people up till now look at it as the mythic+ spec.

#

The most iconic subtlety time was WoD HfC, it is what a huge amount of the playerbase remembers.

#

And later some small iterations or perks that always got removed:

  • DfA
  • Shuriken Combo
  • Shadowdust
#

This creates a bad framework, where it is more likely that people play something they know is favorable tuned, isn't getting reworked or stuff removed when niches exist and overall easier to understand play.

#

the account age is a showcase that the majority of players did experience this cycles

#

so to say, a majority of the playerbase brings prejudices and expectations from said history

granite hinge
#

Then they decided to put shadowdust

vale pine
#

which isn't a bad move

granite hinge
#

And killed spec for most of people

gritty knot
#

Man, now u got me with that "iconic WoD HfC sub rogue"...I have old screenshots of solo masskilling whole raidgroups of 20 ppl with the trinket + legendary ring explosion...that was peak sub rogue fun

granite hinge
#

And sin After rework feels a lot fun imho

#

It seems to me "the old sub"

#

Now with trickster sub seems fun and enjoyable

#

We'll see with 11.05

#

When they remove shadowdust

#

And the stupid kyrian minigame

near rivet
#

i feel optimistic about supercharged

vale pine
#

Tuning:
Tuning is as probably hinted above a big factor.
Assassiantion was for 2 xpacs (Legion, BfA) the raiding spec, and usually gets buffed if it performs poorly in raid.
Outlaw/Subtlety don't have this benefit and e.g. during Legion with peak player base you had a lot of reason to pick the spec as your prefered choice. Even if not intentional you have 2-4x the amount of players now that want the spec to be good or the best, maybe 2-4 is even underselling it.
And the same works in both ways, because subtlety was bad for an entire xpac in bfa and never buffed to be good, people feel less interessted in the spec.
Or for Outlaw, it was very popular in Mythic+ and mythic+ was one of the main content pieces during the last xpac and as such it was expected to do good in that content and often tuned like that.

#

Then there is Design

#

subtlety design didn't change sinc legion

#

if anything new things just got removed

#

and we suffer from it, the spec did not get enough time put in in DF

#

starting at the very beta

#

and this incompleteness leads to carrying the same problems for years

obsidian steeple
#

as a very new and learning sub rogue, is the common consensus that sub has too many buttons? Theres like 5 abilities that are all 30s-1min cds used through the rotation, in addition to the basic rotation

vale pine
#

subtlty isn't that bad with buttons anymore

#

but it is complicated

#

esp. due to dust

#

and some design decisions

#

of adding complexity for the sake of it instead of thoughtfully

obsidian steeple
#

ther is 14 direct abilities used in the rotation

#

thats way too many imo

#

Even arcane got brought down to like 9

vale pine
#

builder:
backstab, strike, storm (3)
Spender:
slice and dice, rupture, evis, secret technique, black powder (5)
cooldowns:
symbols of death, shadow dance, flgellation, shadowblades, tornado (5)

obsidian steeple
#

my first impressions are just that shuriken tornado, symbols of death, shuriken storm and flaggellationm all feel pointless and just exist to give tiny buffs

vale pine
#

so 12-13

merry agate
vale pine
#

slice and dice gets passive

#

so anothr one gone

#

11

obsidian steeple
#

you press it once so that still counts to me

vale pine
#

snd in 11.0.5 does not need to be pressed

fickle sundial
#

Are you counting cold blood or just including it in the secret tech macro?

vale pine
#

it applies from evis now too

#

cold blood and tea

obsidian steeple
#

good change then tbh

vale pine
#

both can be used in a macro

#

so i didn't count them

fickle sundial
#

Fair

vale pine
#

i forgot vanish

#

as it is atm

#

a damage cooldown

#

so i guess back to 12

#

but dust removal

#

so back down to 11

#

button count isn't the only problem of gameplay tho

obsidian steeple
#

Backstab, Shadowstrike, Evis, Rupture, Secret Tech, Shuri Tornado, Flage, Cold Blood, Shuri Storm,SnD, SoD, Shadow Dance, Vanish, Tea

#

You shouldnt have to macro abilities that harshly to reduce button bloat

sly shore
#

Don't have to

#

I play with them seperate

merry agate
#

Think so too Button count is not that bad 🤔

vale pine
#

there are other things, if you look at the subtlety design space

#

a lot of things are obfuscated

near rivet
#

only button not worth binding is pickpocket

vale pine
#

complexity to seemingly add interessting options

#

but makes everything even harder to understand

#

it means

#

if you open the spellbook

#

everything you see

#

needs extra explenation

#

then there are some design decisions people rly don't understand

#

reguardless of class

#

e.g. cooldownreduction

near rivet
#

or pandemic

vale pine
#

having a lot of diffrent cooldown timers, major cooldowns you can't line up because the development team does like the enviroment created by that

#

bleeds

#

or lets say maintaiance finishers in general

#

energy management

#

dependencies

#

nobody talk about it

near rivet
#

or how complex the old ShT were

vale pine
#

but how many combo points you get

#

just from one spell

#

is extremely hard to know

#

and changes with a lot of other factors

#

in aoe

#

e.g. just with the BP change

#

when to use BP is not obviosse

#

if you do math you would be like

#

5+ targets

#

but its 8+

#

why?

#

the same team decided to put in find weakness and fazed as dependencies

#

they change the value of spells

#

and change how much damage you do

near rivet
#

SecTec should apply FW like it applies fazed

vale pine
#

the point is

#

a lot of small decisions

hazy breach
#

Fw just shouldnt be a thing anymore

vale pine
#

like splitting up attacks

#

where done after legion

#

in an attempt to add interessting new things

#

but now lead to a lot of problems

near rivet
vale pine
#

and subtlety is a collection of decisions that makes it difficult to understand

#

but ill need to get something to eat

#

so ill just quickly put my perception on exposure

#

during DF, being the only spec that gets no new interaction

weary tree
#

!bug

wicked joltBOT
vale pine
#

made subtlety invisible

#

podcasts never rly talked about it, and if at all it was only rly talked about as a side topic

#

in part due to tuning too

#

but there is just not a lot of effort put

#

to introduce and iterate on the spec

#

in a way people would suddenly change

#

more effort, and i can understand this from a coporate perspective

#

was put in doing so for e.g. assassiantion

#

again, there is likely no bad fait, but it isn't how you get people to play the spec

#

nor is it by removing what its good at every other patch

#

re-defining your strenghs and weaknesses every time isn't good for keeping people excited

#

and you see it in m+

#

subtlety was rly good in m+ in s1/2 DF because its niche was to do good aoe damage

#

but this niche was removed in 10.2 and now other specs are the ones doing good aoe damage

#

10.2 gave it the niche of more dynamic cooldowns

#

11.0.5 removes that

#

neither of the changes is bad on its own, e.g. i would argue removing dust might be good

#

but there was always a complete lack of follow up

#

to make sure to not create more damage then oppotunity

novel sable
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
fickle sundial
#

what’s your opinion on nimble strikes in the hero talent tree?

alpine wraith
#

boring

merry agate
#

Flurry?

#

Counterproductive Design i guess?

dusky tundra
#

BP 8+ now I reckon?

alpine wraith
#

well it depends on how many FW you have up

#

if you play trickster chances are you dont have many FW up

hard wren
#

sub in BFA season 2

#

cheese boss keep ads alive

near rivet
#

it was s1

steel heart
#

Problem is that mages, paladins to name a few get WAY more attention than other classes

near rivet
#

they purged it in the middle of it

#

and compensated sub rogue by nerfing the boss by 5%

hazy breach
#

Ye was gonna say, nobody played sub in bfa s2

alpine wraith
#

almost nobody

tribal blade
#

i literally quit playing bfa because of what blizz did to sub

#

honestly it was just a sign of things to come

hazy breach
#

Surely removing subtletys niche that made them really good wont be as detrimental this time around

#

Right..? clueless

alpine wraith
#

think only grymzyo and me killed bosses in eternal palace

#

there were some others that private logged although my guild also began private logging

#

then kicked me kekw

#

they need to do the combo thoi

#

remove the good thing also dont buff

#

right now we are still in stage 1

#

i give them 1 patch

#

progress is fucked either way and they dont care anymore it seems for them

#

they might buff frost mage again tho or rework sp

#

because fire is already good

tribal blade
#

i'm honestly curious if us gaining 1.5 min cd and DB at the same time actually drastically changes anything

#

one can hope

#

maybe us not needing to hold flag for blades anymore actually will bump our dps naturally

#

but 16 second blades is kind of fucked

alpine wraith
#

funnily enough this plays better than with finality and db

#

you still skip 1 dance SoD tho

#

but after second set of cds

tribal blade
#

interesting

alpine wraith
#

well sims will tell

#

but supercharger is kinda funny

#

5.2m evis

tribal blade
#

that's a big number

alpine wraith
#

well not that much in the grand scheme

clever delta
#

5m is normal envenom

tribal blade
#

is it? i'm not used to numbers this expac yet

clever delta
#

ye

alpine wraith
#

well it is almost 8m because of shadowed

#

if only i had transmitter

#

it would be 10m+

tribal blade
#

goddamn haha

clever delta
#

make it 15m and we talkin

alpine wraith
#

it is actually quite possible

#

but right now vers is a bit stronger han mastery

#

so not that worth

#

at least for st

#

i will try to stack mastery but it seems you kinda need to craft the 2 rings or use the mastery crit ones

#

from grim/boralus

clever delta
#

I'm pretty sure if you get PI on good pull evis can hit for 20m in good day

alpine wraith
#

why PI

clever delta
#

I just made it up

ivory swallow
#

!bugs

wicked joltBOT
ivory swallow
#

Folks, isn't that DASH from COUP a bug?

#

hahahahaha did someone else died to some mechanic while using evis with that damn dash?

alpine wraith
#

nah it is intended for us to die

ivory swallow
#

HAHAHAHA

alpine wraith
#

yea more than once

ivory swallow
#

YEAHHHHH

alpine wraith
#

same as sepsis tp

#

you can do it still before they delete it

ivory swallow
#

Damn nobody f*** care bout sub 😦

alpine wraith
#

yea bout right

ivory swallow
#

And that is the only thing I've every and will ever play with

jaunty umbra
#

oh they removing sepsis next patch too
pvp sub might be cooked then

alpine wraith
#

yea until they nerf finishers again because they hit

#

with supercharger you get quite strong ones

#

sub rogue is not allowed to do dmg

#

but of course a monk can play ragdoll with me in the air while hitting me for 1m+

half galleon
#

a quick -6% sec tec / evis after 11.5 is coming

alpine wraith
#

dont worry it is already nerfed by like 60% in pvp

#

+less crit effectiveness

tribal blade
#

losing sepsis definitely won't kill sub in pvp

alpine wraith
#

it was cool to have 2 extra tps

#

now that is gonezo

#

if you though you could ever catch a mage

sly shore
#

before you write that sentence

tribal blade
vale pine
#

it is a hero talent

#

it isn't like on assassiantion or outlaw baseline to the spec

#

and as such it can create a interessting dynamic

#

or a terrible one

#

e.g. currently both hero talent specs play vastly diffrent in aoe

#

but if you prefer one over the other, you can't decide

vale pine
tribal blade
#

it's like playing 2 different specs

vale pine
#

i think thats ver good

#

for talents

#

but it should be in the subtlety tree

#

to allow this dynamic as a general decision

tribal blade
#

it should be in the sub tree i agree

vale pine
#

choice is always good

tribal blade
#

it would make a lot of sense to move it to the sub tree

#

and then nimble flurry in the hero tree could boost it's % dmg like on outlaw

#

but that sounds like a lot of work blizz would definitely not want to put into sub

#

because then they'd have to redo the entire system on how we even activate nimble

vestal escarp
#

They will never put nimble in baseline

tribal blade
#

i think so too

vale pine
#

you would need to add it as a choice node

#

so even more work

#

^^

tribal blade
#

yeah you right

#

well i guess i put all my hopes and dreams into the anniversary patch

vale pine
#

i think of it as the beginning

#

of bigger changes

#

it can't just

#

remove one thing without propper compensation, and call it a day

hazy breach
#

Ye but i suspect there wont be many more changes

#

for a long while

vale pine
#

probably

#

11.1

#

or 11.2

#

i don't think 11.0.7 or earlier

#

but happy to be wrong

tribal blade
#

it's hard to say, but if you judge based on the past few seasons

#

it doesn't look good

vale pine
#

i think of it like this

#

10.2 was the last time rogue got real attention

tribal blade
#

very big attention yea

vale pine
#

the entire 11.0.x cycle was no real change

#

11.0.5 is also fairly minor

#

so the time since last period of attention is quite high

tribal blade
#

i hope it's coming soon

vale pine
#

question would be mroe

#

*more

#

if rogue gets attention+

#

how much of this attention is spend in re-working subtlety

silk wagon
#

Wait whats happening

#

I feel live I've missed something

hazy breach
#

Nothing

#

Thats the point

silk wagon
#

Oh okay KEKWHD

woeful wren
#

Is haste cap important for sub or just stack crit/mastery still and get passively haste from whatever

glacial hinge
#

we want the oposite xD

mental comet
#

0 haste

alpine wraith
#

vers and mastery

woeful wren
#

oh vers ok cheers

vagrant fulcrum
#

I miss when sub was mastery + crit

#

I blame the hero trees and removal of seal fate for wrecking crit

#

cold blood is a key suspect too

golden totem
#

We liked vers for a long time now

#

And crit is still fine

#

We just wanna avoid haste

vagrant fulcrum
#

when you say long time, how long we talking

#

I remember it's been mast vers since rework

#

and we've wanted 0 haste for a while now

golden totem
#

Doesn't mean vers is shit

vagrant fulcrum
#

vers is VERY good

#

who tf said it's shit?

golden totem
#

Oh read it wrong

vagrant fulcrum
#

in terms of gameplay power vers is by far the best stat for your class to prio, consistent, applies to shit like trinkets and embelishments in addition to giving a defensive value

half comet
#

classes that want vers are made poorly pepe_chad

vagrant fulcrum
#

the issue is that vers classes can't use haste normally

golden totem
#

And scales poorly usually

vagrant fulcrum
#

the idea that bc vers gives less % increase per rating than say haste or mastery causing scaling issues is fake, blizzard consistently aura buff vers classes every tier

golden totem
#

Hmmm

vagrant fulcrum
#

I just pref crit + mastery bc it feels like the big hits are especially big if yknow what im saying

golden totem
#

Don't you like auto attack being faster starege

patent crystal
#

Can’t forget the energy regen

vagrant fulcrum
#

if haste gave noticably more shadow tech stacks

#

maaaaaybe

hazy breach
#

I mean it does

vagrant fulcrum
#

lust is noticable

hazy breach
#

Haste is definitely not worthless

vagrant fulcrum
#

haste from gear not so much

hazy breach
#

Its just not better than the other stats

woeful wren
#

If vers is one of the top stats, does the crafted trinket have a place for sub? sorry if it's a stupid question

hazy breach
#

no

vagrant fulcrum
#

also the value of cps outside cds is so fake

#

if we lacked shadow tech / cps in dance id understand

#

but we inherently have enough

mental comet
#

i miss multistrike

tidal coral
#

Could someone plz give me the tldr on where this spec stands rn

fathom meadow
#

its pretty good

vagrant fulcrum
#

that's my take

alpine wraith
#

that is a lot of copium

#

more like quite bad and the worse of the rogue ones

#

think there are 1 or 2 specs worse on st

#

overall aug and sp i think

vagrant fulcrum
#

and arguably ansurek too depending on when your raidteam wants damage

alpine wraith
#

not for long dont worry

vagrant fulcrum
#

anyways i don't think its harsh to say we're average overall compared to most specs

#

warlocks for example as a class are horrific

vale pine
#

there is a reason subtlety is the least played spec in the game

#

and tuning is part of it

fickle sundial
#

i want to justify learning it completely but it doesn’t seem worth it to perfect vs assassin rn

#

it has such a fun concept with the supposed to be extremely high burst windows with really low filler

lilac stag
#

Play what you enjoy. Learning something new is generally not time wasted.

alpine wraith
#

well having fun is the most important thing

#

there is reason we are still here copiumin

#

and doing m+/raid

fickle sundial
#

that’s fair, both sin and sub are super fun to me

silk wagon
#

I am having a blast with Sub

alpine wraith
#

some are even masochistic and also do pvp

fickle sundial
#

i thought sub was supposed to be the premier PvP spec for rogue

#

has that changed?

#

I haven’t done PvP since WoD and I played both sub and combat during then

alpine wraith
#

sub is played at high lvls yes

#

but it is super hard and painful to even bother

#

at low rating

fickle sundial
#

i believe that

#

sub was always easier in pvp than pve to me because it’s easier to wrap my head around the idea of going from ‘fat burst’ to ‘literally almost no dmg’ in pvp

simple garnet
#

Sorry if this gets asked a lot but does the 30% black powder buff mean we go back to playing like in DF?

uneven scarab
#

It just means we can play deathstalker deadly brew in keys now

#

It is quite a strong buff to bp

simple garnet
#

Aw hell yeah that was the hero talent I wanted to play when they were announced

uneven scarab
#

I will say it feels a little weird on sub in keys but ive only played a little of it

#

def just gotta get used to it

simple garnet
#

I took one look at coupe de grace and was like fuck that 😂

vale pine
#

there is sadly no performance advantage to be gained

uneven scarab
vale pine
fickle sundial
#

i know the basics of the class

#

the only thing new to me is secret techniques

#

everything else has existed at one point since ive played

vale pine
#

assassiantion often plays like in pve

#

just apply dots and you good

fickle sundial
#

yeh just keep dots up and use dm/kb for burst

vale pine
#

its a powerful and simple play style that seems to draw more people in

#

subtlety is typically juggling more cooldowns/stuns etc

fickle sundial
#

yeah that’s what makes it so nice to me is the ability to always have access to cheap shot and the like

#

is subs opener relatively long with setup like sin or is it more fluid and front loaded?

golden totem
#

You burst faster

tidal coral
#

Does coup play anything like dfa

golden totem
#

No

tidal coral
#

Rip

#

I will never again reach that level enjoyment with the spec it seems

fickle sundial
#

dfa was goated in WoD

#

dfaing someone’s entire hp bar

#

just ASchefkiss

lilac flame
#

I’m only just returning since BC and a little bit of Wrath. But overall I’m finding the Rogue to bit convoluted. I feel like each of the three specs have lost their identity somewhat. But sub has always been my favorite.

tidal coral
#

Dfa was goated in legion

fickle sundial
tidal coral
#

I’ve never vibed more with a spec

fickle sundial
#

Outlaw plays more like how sub reads with using vanish as an offensive cd to proc subterfuge windows to spam their big finisher. It feels so estranged and opposite of what the spec is and how the rest of it plays thematically to me. They don’t know if they want it to be a guerilla fighter or a highwayman or a pirate or what.

tidal coral
#

I haven’t mained rogue since then tbh but I’d swap back in a heartbeat bc the class will always feel like home

fickle sundial
#

The best way to describe outlaw is like Defias meets Bloodsail with a lot of stolen identity from Subtlety.

Sub itself feels more like a ninja/shadowblade than a ‘stealth class.’

#

Assassin has sort of kept its identity as a poisons master but that’s the extent of it. It was always the most bland of the 3 to me.

tidal coral
#

I feel like there’s only so much you can do with just “stealth” as fantasy esp when the two other specs also have stealth

#

I don’t mind the ninja/shadowblade

near rivet
#

just steal kyveza skills

tidal coral
#

And I think they could have leaned harder into that for the hero talents

#

Esp the cosmic dmg parts

fickle sundial
#

Yeah I agree. My solution to that is how it mostly was in Legion when I played. Assassin always got ‘stealth’ benefits from Garrote being as they were the bleed/poison spec but had no true interaction or benefit from stealth with their offensive kit beyond that.

I personally think subterfuge should just be yeeted entirely from otl/sin and reworked to be made viable for sub

tidal coral
#

Agree

#

The entire notion of shadow dance being given was ridiculous

#

Shadow dance was the entire fantasy of sub

fickle sundial
#

Yes I hate the idea of any style or version of a ‘shadow dance’ for any of them besides sub.

#

Yeeee

tidal coral
#

That’s like if sub got rtb

fickle sundial
#

Remove it from outlaw so outlaw can feel like a legitimate duelist/pirate instead of this weird bastard child

near rivet
#

we had acro strikes thou

vagrant fulcrum
tidal coral
#

Ya I always thought the fantasy of outlaw was pretty clear, a dashing scoundrel/outlaw

vagrant fulcrum
#

it's gone so far down the rabbit hole

fickle sundial
vagrant fulcrum
#

non stealth builds aren't even close to being viable

tidal coral
#

That will always baffle me

fickle sundial
#

The only consistency with OTL from legion up until today have been RTB and pistol shot

#

That’s my entire complaint

#

Outlaw doesn’t even play like outlaw is described

#

Outlaw plays like old sub but with just way more bloat and systems to manage

vagrant fulcrum
fickle sundial
#

Ya do less than nothing outside of cd’s/subterfuge

vagrant fulcrum
#

a tricky swordsman using underhanded methods to win fights?

near rivet
#

remember the joy of a 5 roll in bfa?

tidal coral
#

Or a zorro/pirates of the carrbbean

near rivet
#

they took it away from us

tidal coral
#

It doesn’t need stealth

fickle sundial
vagrant fulcrum
#

I agree, but I think the whole hiding then shooting you with a gun makes sense from a thematic standpoint

#

OL is the kicking you while down spec

tidal coral
#

Yes agree

vagrant fulcrum
#

all three rogue specs don't fight fair, but OL especially doesn't fight fair more than the others

fickle sundial
#

I’m pretty sure the descriptor in game on the specs menu is something akin to ‘a toe to toe duelist who brawls up close’

tidal coral
#

Kicking while you’re down doesn’t need shadow dance burst windows

vagrant fulcrum
#

well they got rid of dance for it

tidal coral
#

Like honestly how tf was dance ever in the class tree

vagrant fulcrum
#

imo there needs to be a non stealth option thats real for OL

warm depot
#

we already know theyre creatively void of ideas cuz of the hero trees lol

tidal coral
#

Ik but I’m hung up on that

vagrant fulcrum
#

greenskin capstone spot needs to be changed

fickle sundial
#

From Legion Class Preview Series: Rogue[1]

Outlaw rogues are the unscrupulous scoundrels of Azeroth. Operating outside the law, they bend the rules and distort the truth to get what they need. While they share plenty in common with other rogues, these outlaws have little use for tact or discretion, happy to engage in a tavern brawl or spontaneous duel, rarely patient enough to wait in stealth for the opportune time to engage. To survive in such a world, outlaws must become master swordsmen in toe-to-toe combat—and they can’t shy away from fighting dirty. If blade fails to cut too deeply, the outlaw takes advantage of a concealed pistol, catching the enemy by surprise with a quick blast.

vagrant fulcrum
tidal coral
#

Has greenskins been good since legion

vagrant fulcrum
fickle sundial
#

It set the tone for the spec considering it was entirely overhauled remade since then

vagrant fulcrum
fickle sundial
tidal coral
#

Standing toe to toe meanwhile is pressing vanish on cd

fickle sundial
#

hiding in the shadows and popping back out just to shoot a loud ass gun more does not scream ‘toe to toe’ to me

vagrant fulcrum
#

of the three specs i'd say OL is the one that stands toe to toe the most

#

thematically and in practice too both in pve and pvp

vale pine
#

also why some things got renamed like rtb buffs

vagrant fulcrum
tidal coral
#

I thought pirates was fine, it was solid identity

vale pine
vagrant fulcrum
fickle sundial
#

I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m more saying that the idea of them literally having off brand, buggy shadow dance as their only viable dps idea is dog water awful.

vagrant fulcrum
#

but they didn't do that or too much into the whole dirty fighter throwing bricks n stuff either

vagrant fulcrum
fickle sundial
#

RTB felt awful in legion coming off of combat being a super consistent and long lived thing in pvp

#

It put a super sour taste in my mouth and it’s only felt worse, to me, every xpac I’ve tried it whether I’ve played for one tier or the whole thing

#

I like that they’ve streamlined it a lot more with the 8 second buffs you can proc

vagrant fulcrum
#

issue is if you remote rtb OL is just fury 2.0 in terms of gameplay

tidal coral
#

Rtb has been fine since bfa

uneven scarab
woeful wren
#

I liked the SoD idea of having a dot builder then swapping to SS outside of maint

fickle sundial
vagrant fulcrum
tidal coral
#

Fury is the more brutal straightforward dw spec. Outlaw should be like fiora from league

#

More artful

near rivet
#

outlaw was always called a warrior with stealth

warm depot
fickle sundial
vagrant fulcrum
#

maybe it's a wierd observation

fickle sundial
#

an actual duelist

uneven scarab
#

Yeah they both mash 2 buttons to the ends of the earth kekdog

fickle sundial
vagrant fulcrum
#

but why do they keep having sustained dps specs that are notably harder than average, OL and enh come to mind

near rivet
#

fiora fineese and subtlety and precision souds like a sub thing

tidal coral
#

Fiora straight up duels you 1v1

#

I don’t think that’s sub at all

uneven scarab
#

Fiora is a sword master

#

yeah

fickle sundial
#

enh has been a consistent alt of mine and I’ve never thought of it as hard

#

just rly fast

uneven scarab
#

dude i miss old fio ult

tidal coral
#

Enhance is less hard now than it was in df

uneven scarab
#

when she would blink all over you and just delete you

warm depot
#

you pray for your procs or ult did 0 dmg

#

never forget

tidal coral
#

The problem with enhance is that the spec channel sucks and nobody really knows how to play it, and nobody can read love

#

Logs*

#

I’ve never seen a log review in the spec channel and I’ve mained it for like 4 seasons now

fickle sundial
#

enhance reminds me of old frost but way higher apm

#

mash the glowy buttons and don’t let a cd stay ready too long

vagrant fulcrum
upper narwhal
#

enhance has too many group utility spells and they hurt my rogue brain

vagrant fulcrum
#

in df the amount of whack enh that were brought just for the buff was crazy

tidal coral
#

The only one in the channel who knows how to play it is word up and he’s hardly ever there

upper narwhal
#

what the FUCK is a dispell?

vagrant fulcrum
#

there was a huge gap between good and average enh in df

tidal coral
#

The rest is a bunch of terminally online white names who you can’t really trust

lilac flame
#

Hell I miss old school hemo.

fickle sundial
#

it doesn’t help now that shaman is the FotM class rn

tidal coral
#

Ya true

upper narwhal
#

know an insane resto player but he just had a kid so can't play much

fickle sundial
#

rsham for heals, ele and enh for raids and some m+

upper narwhal
#

true suffering

barren plume
#

Fotm class because they turned shaman into a god in all specs

fickle sundial
#

It’s the dream

tidal coral
#

Tbf enhance deserves some time in the light

warm depot
#

tbf shaman was pretty bad for a long time

vagrant fulcrum
upper narwhal
#

i don't mind enhance being good, it's a hard spec to play well

vagrant fulcrum
#

dk and shaman's turn is now

warm depot
#

just make rogues fotm

upper narwhal
#

frost deserves some time too

warm depot
#

surely people will pick this class up right copium

upper narwhal
#

Assa is chilling rn

uneven scarab
#

Assa fotm as hell rn

upper narwhal
#

outlaw sub not so much

uneven scarab
#

yeah

tidal coral
#

All the pug sin rogues I play with suck

warm depot
#

its fotm but id imagine play % still lower than most specs n classes

tidal coral
#

Like so badly

upper narwhal
#

made a dk blush in m+

#

asked me is assa pumps now

warm depot
#

idt people are going out of their way to reroll rogues

vagrant fulcrum
#

consistently top 7 specs for the whole expac

fickle sundial
#

ive mained rogue since mop

tidal coral
#

Ret is busted rn

#

And it’s brain dead

vagrant fulcrum
#

idk if i'd call ret busted anymore

#

it was deffo busted with fyralath

fickle sundial
#

every ret i know whines and copes when they don’t even have enough buttons to fill a single bar

uneven scarab
#

Frost was def underrated as fuck

tidal coral
#

And it’s like 65% of pugs when I list my keys

uneven scarab
#

In df

warm depot
#

they should just follow fighting game philosophy: the harder the char the bigger the benefits of playing well

vagrant fulcrum
#

ret jsut has a rreally low skill floor

tidal coral
#

They have wings every pack also

#

And are tanky

uneven scarab
#

but alas

warm depot
#

and yet they remove dust

#

alas

uneven scarab
#

Yep

alpine wraith
#

harder has not usually been better for wow at least

warm depot
#

yeah but it should!!!

alpine wraith
#

sadly every time there was good skill expression in wow with some specs they try really hard to stomp it

#

like with ToT combat

#

or cata sub or legion snacker sub

fickle sundial
#

when yall are saying enh is hard are you talking about the raw dps rotation or skillfully using all of the utility

fierce bobcat
#

guys just want to be sure i need to craft ring with this right?

image.png
alpine wraith
#

depends

#

i wouldnt

fierce bobcat
alpine wraith
#

embellish are kinda whatever but focusing lens is not bad yea

#

imo duskthread with good uptime>lens but you wont always get good uptime that is why you can go lens although ascension is a bit better on longer fights too

fierce bobcat
#

and prob will be crafting other gear with duskthread

alpine wraith
#

yea you can always change embellish later

fierce bobcat
#

do i need spark when im recrafting?

alpine wraith
#

nope

fierce bobcat
#

thats nice

#

thanks for help

simple garnet
weary kite
#

pin

vestal escarp
#

Like havoc or outlaw are a tier above in execution but perform mid

vagrant fulcrum
#

when I say sleeper I just mean underrated

simple garnet
#

Oh I don’t raid. It just sorta felt like how sub feels right now where you have gigaburst with pillar of frost and frostwyrms and then you do healer damage for 40 seconds

#

In m+ 🙂

vagrant fulcrum
#

oblit was decent in m+ then again idk, I only really played with muffincookie as frost

#

maybe it's player diff

simple garnet
#

Yeah I’m not that good 😂

brave spindle
#

Frost DK was pretty good in m+

vagrant fulcrum
#

I might be overrating it bc the guy is just very good

simple garnet
#

But I could do well on other specs being the same player

brave spindle
#

Got some decent parses on my DK in raid as well

vagrant fulcrum
#

I think frost has it's own issues (UH just being better due to pi + aug abuse in s2 for example, breath constraints)

simple garnet
#

Also off topic but mo I’m kinda in love with ur pfp who is that

vagrant fulcrum
#

i wish my char was actually an elf, could make them look like this 😢

fickle sundial
#

dark skinned elves are gorg

#

also belves can be melanated no?

cedar wigeon
#

!sims

wicked joltBOT
cedar wigeon
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
vagrant fulcrum
fickle sundial
#

ah

#

ive went from troll to velf to draenei most recently

#

im definitely going dracthyr when they release

#

kind of sad tho cause gift of the naaru is a comfy emergency button

#

esp with healing being so intense this xpac

hollow vortex
#

is bubbling wax bugged again?

#

sorry if it has been asked

vale pine
#

it is fixed

hollow vortex
#

right now

vale pine
#

don't know what bug should be there again

#

weird

hollow vortex
#

was working yday tho

pliant topaz
#

someone mentioned it may be bugged again

hollow vortex
#

📉

pliant topaz
#

as they say blizzard works in mysterious ways

vale pine
#

moment, ill login

#

applied it to a 619 without issues

image.png
dry yarrow
#

yea if its like 632

#

or 626

#

it doesnt seem to work

vale pine
#

hmm maybe they added a higher item level restriction

#

rly disslike how wax changes every patch

#

or hotfix

hazy breach
#

Im just not using it

#

Cba with all the bugs

#

Rogue is bugged enough kek

vale pine
#

so its thematical?

lilac stag
#

Just do a couple world quests and pay for stones.

uneven scarab
#

Its thematical we get punished every patch

alpine wraith
#

we are subs after all

#

taking it

dry yarrow
#

kinda cringe if this is intentional. I like that we have smthing unique

vale pine
dry yarrow
#

even if its a simple consumable

alpine wraith
#

any time now we get the crimson vial changes

#

maybe this new affix means they can make it dispel poison or curses

dry yarrow
#

crimson vial off gcd

#

and dispells poison

patent crystal
#

Maybe wax is assa only

pulsar mauve
#

I equipped bubbling wax on 639 ilvl as sub on EU 1hr ago

vale pine
#

maybe its a cachning issue

#

try deleting your cache and relog

#

i am eu too, and it worked as stated above

#

but not that high item level

pulsar mauve
#

I will keep my cache forever

vale pine
#

i mean the ones it does not work

pulsar mauve
#

All hail bubbling wax

dry yarrow
#

well now that i relogged

#

i cant use it on any of the rogues I have, on any ilvl

#

lol

alpine wraith
#

aaaaaaaaaaay

dry yarrow
#

(any ilvl above 619)

alpine wraith
#

someone at blizz is getting a hard on watching us flip and flop

#

between IT WORKS

dry yarrow
#

not sure if its smthing specific that triggers it

alpine wraith
#

and IT DOES NOT WOEK

merry agate
#

theres a conspiracy afoot

dry yarrow
#

there smthing wrong with it

#

look this is 619

image.png
#

:|

vale pine
void hound
alpine wraith
#

sub rn

dry yarrow
#

rogue 2 can use it after I unequipped and equipped

alpine wraith
dry yarrow
#

rogue 3 cant

vale pine
alpine wraith
#

true

merry agate
#

they playing mindgames with us.... wanting to make us reroll ret or some bs.... never give up bois

alpine wraith
#

but sub is more like a haunter

#

ghost type

#

people wonder what is this spec in m+

#

did it exist?

#

what is nimble flurry

#

someone asked me

#

it does a lot of dmg

void hound
#

nobody asks about nimble flurry

#

cause nobody cars

#

😭

void hound
alpine wraith
#

does not work with aour hardest hitting ability or own main cd

#

-3/10

#

also it says 50 but is 40 in reality

merry agate
#

auto hits

#

YUGE

alpine wraith
#

because fuck you in particular

pliant topaz
#

also reduces shadow hits

#

so its even less than the 40

alpine wraith
#

actually fuck FW

#

and the bastardization it has been

#

damn shadowed finishers

#

may the creater burn in the rank 2 evis hell

#

and the person that had the idea of sec tech

pliant topaz
#

im still baffled by the decicion to make coup be 3 little hits instead of 1 big hit

alpine wraith
#

fire him and if he left hire him to fire him again

pliant topaz
#

i thought maybe the DM stacks were intentional

#

to make it like that

alpine wraith
#

so many split hits

pliant topaz
#

then they reverted the 1 positive bug we had

#

and give us 2 more negative ones

#

and kept it as 3 small hits

alpine wraith
#

watch them hotfix lingering

pliant topaz
#

nah

#

thats too obvious if they do

merry agate
#

this is like Cave Johnson's Lemons Rant in portal 2 megu

pliant topaz
#

theyre more subtle

#

(they think)

alpine wraith
#

yea delete talents then give worse placeholders

#

and buff assa

#

meanwhile

#

when in doubt buff assa

pliant topaz
#

dont forget new bugs

#

give sub more

haughty mural
alpine wraith
#

ah true DS mark

#

free -3%

pliant topaz
#

ive heard shadowed finishers works with blades

#

that doesnt seem right

haughty mural
#

That’s how i imagine them watching us

alpine wraith
#

does not work with DN

pliant topaz
#

that one + the mark behaviour = 7%

#

🙂

alpine wraith
#

shadowed finishers works like the mexicans doing the routing for the texans

#

badly and not much

#

and underpaid

#

i blacklisted parts of US because of that to work with

pliant topaz
#

butyeah fun times

#

surely today though

#

ptr patch notes big fixes big changes

#

surely

alpine wraith
#

they killed wax again

#

well time to take a mini nap of 1h

merry agate
#

if the sub community has proven one thing in the years that it can persevere bla weather the storm light at the end of the tunnel yada yada RHlove

pliant topaz
#

I wish they would make a legendary dagger for us, so we suffer getting the legendary, but it only works with shadow damge finishers in its tooltip. plot twist, its bugged and doesnt work with shadowed finishers or sectech. its also crit haste stats. and has a slower speed

#

that would be so thematical

haughty mural
#

Im here for that

merry agate
#

cant be enchanted with wax/oil/whetstone ofc too

haughty mural
vale pine
merry agate
#

through all the yank 😄

uneven scarab
slender rune
#

Guys what's the reason follow the blood isn't as good as momentum? I can't wrap my head around the fact that 15% crit + 32% critical damage is supposed to be stronger than a flat +30% damage. At the same time I'm too dumb to calculate the effective damage increase for follow the blood, can someone help me out here?

grave abyss
#

I think follow the blood is better for sub now? momentum is better for assassination because fok crit chance also grants more combo points

pliant topaz
#

doesnt work on shadowed finishers

tropic pier
#

Doesn't momentom also work on black powder?

pliant topaz
#

which is like 40% of bp damage

grave abyss
#

well there you go then

tropic pier
slender rune
#

Oh well, thanks

pliant topaz
slender rune
#

Dude they even buffed the talent but didn't fix this, what the hell. Unless it's intentional I guess

#

Shadowed finisher = the added damage from shadow dance or finishers with shadow damage?

grave abyss
#

fwiw, 15% crit chance and 32% crit damage would be about a 21% damage increase

grave abyss
slender rune
slender rune
jaunty heath
#

do delve items drop with random stats or something

#

or where have i gotten vers mastery gloves of champion track

reef elm
#

is the latest pin an m+ build or is that just generic aoe

grave abyss
#

I forgot that sub's find weakness on shuriken storm only happens on crit 😅 so that would also have an effect on overall damage

slender rune
#

You guys are insane for figuring stuff like this out, like how do you even know that it's bugged specifically for shadowed finishers?

hazy breach
#

You just hit the dummy and see if it works

tidal coral
#

love the randoms on my friends list who i havent played with since 2017 who get mad at me when i dont invite their 606 bear tank to my 9

keen dome
pliant topaz
#

good goes with the flavor of sub

thick cedar
#

Why is TT cd so god damm long, pain in the ass for changing talents.

amber crow
#

for raids we still use dust for now right?

vale pine
#

yes

gritty knot
#

Someone wrote about an addon called "BPP". It looked like plater addon or smth. anyone knows whats the full name of it so I can download it?

dry plank
#

wax is working now i did not get it

gritty knot
#

Okay it was @placid elk but i cant find that addon called "BBP". U said its name is better blizz plates but idk how to find that on curseforge

dry plank
#

caustic spatter stop working in middle of dung

#

how about that?

#

oh nvm poisons dissapear ahahah

placid elk
gritty knot
#

@placid elk thx ❤️

placid elk
placid elk
gritty knot
#

@placid elk i would love that, ye

placid elk
umbral topaz
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
jaunty heath
#

anyone have like a no shadowstep weakaura?

#

im not good with weakauras so it might take me too long to make it myself

merry agate
#

just got transmitter....fits sub perfectly even in design megu

crystal spear
#

hey, what embelishments should I put on my dagger?

#

nvm got it

amber crow
#

is harvesters edict worth using?

latent wren
jaunty heath
#

👍

crystal spear
#

Why is vers so good for sub?

#

and not for the other specs*

vale pine
#

but the other stats are just not as good

#

haste and crit both aren't terrible

#

but are weak enough to in general ignore

crystal spear
#

I guess what I meant to say is, why is a flat damage buff weaker than mastery for example on assassination

#

just mathemagics I guess?

vale pine
#

what do you mean

#

i don't understand the reference

crystal spear
#

Like how does flat damage get outweighed by crit/mastery for assassination

vale pine
#

you mean weapon dps in stat weights

#

thats always higher than pure stat values

crystal spear
#

srry, flat damage being vers

vale pine
#

oh

alpine wraith
#

hey now i can apply wax again

vale pine
#

assassiantion has interactions with crit

alpine wraith
#

wtf is this

vale pine
#

mastery and haste

vale pine
crystal spear
#

oh true, forgot about seal fate

vale pine
#

it is why you e.g. benefit from bloodlust, pi

#

and potential buffs blizz use in game design that gives haste

#

more than the other 2 specs

#

it is atm looking at the rogue specs a niche that only one spec is good at

#

as mentioned, haste is not like "terrible"

#

on subtlety

crystal spear
#

it's just that the other stats give more dmg right

amber crow
#

i feel like haste helps most during off-cd dps with the energy gen

#

which is nice tbh to do more than healer dps

vale pine
#

thats placebo

#

you would need a lot of haste for it to be noticable

#

which loses out damage

amber crow
#

then where is the value in haste? just rupture doing a little more doesnt feel like its very valuable

plush roost
#

I dont want haste to have value on sub tbh

vale pine
#

shadowcraft does satisfy your energy needs

#

during cooldowns

plush roost
#

Because blizzards way of making haste work on sub is "you now require 20% haste to press flag"

amber crow
#

during cooldowns i dont really have any energy problems though

vale pine
#

and using one more backstab outside of cooldowns

#

is not actually a lot of damage

#

so haste gets kinda meh

#

for crit, we have PE passively increasing crit

#

and Cold blood guaranteeing critical strikes on our highest dps ability

crystal spear
#

oh yeah, I had a question about PE

#

The crit buff doesn't show up on my stats page, but it's stil workign right?

#

JK, im stupid

vale pine
#

it should show up in stats

crystal spear
#

I was lookign at mastery lol, im fried

white vessel
#

quick question, do we ignore shiv on ST as sub rogue?

alpine wraith
#

yes

vale pine
#

nothing else

white vessel
#

oke, thanks

small juniper
#

np

alpine wraith
#

damn been a while

#

how are you raz have you seen the absolute cinema sub is

small juniper
#

not pveing this tier, taking a break mate

#

decided before the expansion came out sadly, sub looks fun

tropic wing
#

was wondering how sub feels? I main assassin but been considering swapping to try something different...

vale pine
vale lagoon
#

hi everyone, new here, trying to adapt to the deathstalker thing

#

does this dmg breakdown make sense?

Screenshot_2024-10-11_at_1.45.24_PM.png
#

this was just me sitting on aoe dummies

steel horizon
#

is it similar to your sim? then it makes sense

vale lagoon
#

oh good idea! let me look

alpine wraith
#

it will be a bit diff in dungeons because bosses take a bit of time

#

so rupture and bp will be lower but it seems fine

vale lagoon
#

HUH

#

why is my sectech so low?

alpine wraith
#

that is a diff metric

wind canopy
#

That’s DPET

#

That’s not overall

vale lagoon
#

OH

#

ty ty