subtlety

[alpine wraith]

the triforce

[pliant topaz]

cuz something something rogue immortal raid somethign someething

[left ledge]

It doesn’t fucking do anything

[hazy breach]

Not very strong talents in aoe

And it allows you to be like 0% crit like we are now

[pliant topaz]

i mean inev/wm is a godo amount of single target u lose

[left ledge]

Will .5 really do anything for this spec without proper buffs

[pliant topaz]

imp backstabs kinda w/e u

[left ledge]

I feel like it’s just gonna be qol to gameplay

But the damage still ass

[alpine wraith]

0.5 will make you play another game

dmg can increase

but not much

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure damage is gonna be lower than it is now

[left ledge]

Yeah I was thinking that before

[alpine wraith]

with current raid timers could be

[hazy breach]

But ye idk to me assa just seems better at almost everything

[left ledge]

But I was told otherwise

Like yeah nice changes and all but

[hazy breach]

Playing some sub on court and it seems fine

[left ledge]

They don’t fucking do anything

[alpine wraith]

dont worry if boss dies at exactly 3:20 we rock

[left ledge]

I compared sub and sin on court

[alpine wraith]

take that assa

[left ledge]

Sin just does more damage

[alpine wraith]

did anyone try sub on ovi nax

[left ledge]

Sub isn’t bad

[alpine wraith]

so i dont have to play assa

[left ledge]

But sin is just better now

[pliant topaz]

i did

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure thats not the case, atleast for the pure ST sims

[alpine wraith]

DS?

seems a bit cursed

so i didnt try

[left ledge]

Maybe if nimble flurry wasn’t doing 10% less damage

Is that fixed in .5

[alpine wraith]

nope

at least in ptr it isnt

[left ledge]

Sick

I’m pogging

[charred sandal]

is there a list of dungeons to prio for sub

[alpine wraith]

but dont worry man coup cdr

coming in 2 weeks

[pliant topaz]

my pure guess is 3% buff over current dust

[alpine wraith]

prio dawnbreaker cool ring grim batol cool trink if you dont hve transmitter

[pliant topaz]

3-4%

[hazy breach]

Ye that seems fair

[pliant topaz]

how much do u think tea is worth actually

% wise

[hazy breach]

Surely we get some bugfixes

Like 2.5% or so

[pliant topaz]

because the 1.5 min blades changes for normal db build + tea (not working) sim'd like 1.5% lower

[hazy breach]

With current db

[pliant topaz]

so i guess 1.5 min blades is like 1-1.5% damaqge

[left ledge]

[alpine wraith]

yea they let you enjoy other games

[pliant topaz]

and then supercharger is like 3.5% ahead of tea + vigor

[alpine wraith]

blizz is nice

[pliant topaz]

so its like 4-5% buff

[charred sandal]

is tha dagger from necrotic worth it (i got kukri and regicide)

[left ledge]

Yeah I remember saying this before the expansion dropped

And then during the first month before raid

And then in heroic week

[pliant topaz]

DK said if i think theyre just gonna leave sepsis on sub and remove it from sin and outlaw then im just "clueless"

that was like what week 1 of alpha?

i miss him tbh

[left ledge]

Yeah they clearly hate this spec idk

[pliant topaz]

its def not their favorite atleast

[left ledge]

Can’t convince me otherwise man

[patent crystal]

is there still some augmentation buff bugs in logs?

[alpine wraith]

not likely no

[left ledge]

The fact a dev had to be banished

[pliant topaz]

banished?

[dawn plume]

Hi, does anyone use nameplate styles (for example making enemy casters or enemies with a specific buff health bars a different color) and if yes which one for m+?

[fierce cedar]

wowhead and IV hasnt changed m+ talent recs so does that mean we still do trickster? lol

[tender mica]

idk what ur reading but wowhead says DS nowadays

[drowsy pivot]

It kinda says both...

[fierce cedar]

this is what i see

[drowsy pivot]

It seems to say that Trickster is very good because of Nimble Flurry,

then that Deathstalker is bad because it's bugged and tuned badly,

then that the Black Powder buff makes Deathstalker BETTER than Trickster,

then that Trickster is also bugged so it's only sometimes better.

So, kinda both.

[tender mica]

read the last sentence there

and scroll down

DS is better but sub is just overall dog shit in m+

trickster would be equal ? i believe if it werent bugged

tl;dr just play ass LUL

[fierce cedar]

but then be trickster on the main page

this is a math problem

[tender mica]

fuu prob didnt update cheat sheet

just use the talent builds part of the guide

[frail compass]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lethal gale]

is ds dust complete troll in m+?

[sick jackal]

I did a key today felt really good

[tender mica]

"The Black Powder buff put Deathstalker above Trickster. Trickster also has a bug with Nimble Flurry, making it only better on two target cleave situations."

[lethal gale]

ive still been sticking with trickster dust in M+ even in 9-10s it feels fine. I guess i just need to try it out

[empty plume]

I feel weird without the two-target rupture talent

Which I think is missing from default ds dust

Like what do you press to ramp while things gather up, single target ruptures?

[fallow nimbus]

Make sure you're not playing with the st build

[timid jolt]

Man I haven’t seen a sub in a hot minute you guys out there ? Raid mostly nowadays?

[sweet summit]

in the opener if u dont take shadowdust it shows gloomblade but we dont take that do i do it exact same just skipping gloomblade ?

[charred sandal]

gloomblade fo delves

[uneven scarab]

Sitting in stealth until bug fixes

[charred sandal]

i will terrorize ur keys

[sweet summit]

what do i do in m+ O_O

[charred sandal]

tha brew build with DS

wich involves using tornado (crazy)

[acoustic lodge]

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[acoustic lodge]

is there a WA for transmitter

[limpid lynx]

Any one familiar with transmitter usage ? Do i send it before pull ( last boss example ) or after first dance while flag buff still up ?

I played with it on sub first time tonight and it feels so annoying to use specialy last boss 🥺

[uneven scarab]

Use it right before flag, collect it as ur dancing

Thats how ive been doing it

[limpid lynx]

Thanks i will try implementing that

But man if hit right i go boom boom

[sweet summit]

: (

not the tornado

[charred sandal]

tornado go brrrr

how many of u have had that moment where u look at an ability icon and realize what it actually is, after seeing it for years and thinking it was something else

[timid jolt]

Hope so! Would be cool to see one kicking around!

[charred sandal]

ill start i thought this shit was a face with open mouth not a god damn seal

[golden totem]

LOL

[timid jolt]

I just started leveling a sub it is kinda fun to have that much cc lol

[crystal spear]

Should dance only be used when symbols is up, or when it's at/about to be capped charges?

[hazy breach]

Only when symbols is up ye

Its pretty hard to overcap more than a few gcds, so you'd generally not even send at 2 stacks

Just hold it for a few seconds until symbols comes up

[fair stump]

how's sub looking now that a few days have passed?

Is playing assa still the recommended talent build?

[fierce cedar]

yes

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[velvet arrow]

I don't have transmitter yet, i have skardy 639 and queen 626, which one should I use first at Silken Court mythic?

[frosty bridge]

queen ideally need to use on amp

[velvet arrow]

yea but idk what's the order since im probably the only subt without transmitter xD

[sly shore]

I was thinking if deathstalker was viable for queen

nope

don't think it is

[hazy breach]

I mean BP would do a lot there too

[sly shore]

not nimble flurry it wouldn't

[hazy breach]

What

[velvet arrow]

so how do i translate this into Skardyn + Queen language xD

[soft summit]

Ya sub js did shit right now. I’ve put him on the back burner and playing some alts now. Ret plays really well. I wish rogue designer was fired and the ret designer took over

[sly shore]

you don't

[velvet arrow]

yea but how do i play it without transmitter xD

[sly shore]

you don't

[hazy breach]

BP is gonna do more damage to the tombs than the evis cleave does, but you need like 10ish targets for it to do the same damage to queen as eviscerate

[sly shore]

yep

[velvet arrow]

i don't think is worth to go assa just because i don't have transmitter tho, or is it

[sly shore]

miss me with losing boss damage

[hazy breach]

So if tons of people break out then its slightly less boss dmg

[sly shore]

you can play assa instead

just watch through exiles pov on it

he played it

[velvet arrow]

link

[sly shore]

imexile

[pliant topaz]

if u mean singular focus, pretty sure that things is bugged af

one sec ill give u an example

[sly shore]

no he means

BP = evis on boss at 10 targets

[hazy breach]

Well ye if singular doesnt work

[pliant topaz]

i think he meant damage done to the boss BP'ing vs evis

[hazy breach]

Then its obv less

[pliant topaz]

like look at this

[hazy breach]

Ye i meant pure boss damage

[pliant topaz]

i was trying out DS las tnight on brood keeper

its like my log vs r1 around 12% wipe

singular focus is litearlly doing nothing

[hazy breach]

BP is obviously gonna absolutely smash tomb dmg compared to nimble

[pliant topaz]

look at all that bp damage

probably, if u have FW

but like man the prio damage u lose is absurd

like bp is doing 800k dps

singular focus is doing 27k dps

how is this remotely working

[hazy breach]

Seems like its just the classic

[pliant topaz]

like add all the damage that should get nimbled -> fok / bp / blades

its litaerlly not working

[sly shore]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/odW5rnkhLBcd41EcAPpUDQ

broke 1.3M

[twilit phoenix]

I hear kpb is raiding with zac now

But zac is bench pov

[vagrant sinew]

you mean zac is raiding with kpb!

[twilit phoenix]

Yes, my apologies

[pliant topaz]

I can look at shadowed finishers part

[twilit phoenix]

[half comet]

did u play sin or sub on princess

[pliant topaz]

But it just seems a lot lower than that

[hazy breach]

Its just that, i checked on dummies

Or well, maybe theres more

Nvm it probably is

[pliant topaz]

Does it work with clear the witnesses?

[sly shore]

both they are both shit

[hazy breach]

I just had way more crits

[half comet]

which was less shit loll

[pliant topaz]

Sins less shit now

[sly shore]

What queen prison does to a man

I'm going female

[hazy breach]

Assa

Because you wont be turbo griefed by getting a mechanic once

[vagrant sinew]

you gotta reserve a bop as sub

[hazy breach]

As sub you'll miss a set of symbols, which means you miss cdr, which means youll likely miss an extra set of dance

[half comet]

pain

i was gonna sub but after sin buff

feel like its more trll

troll

[hazy breach]

Annoying thing about the fight is that you need to send your cooldowns as soon as possible when theyre ready

[sly shore]

🫦

[hazy breach]

If you delay you'll lose a cast

So you cant like hold KB for 5 seconds to see if youre getting a mechanic

[sly shore]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6iS6vzWCiUTba3L1UEuVg1

basically the same as sub now

[vagrant sinew]

yeah you pray you dont get 2nd charge in first p1

[shut sonnet]

WHY ARE YOU GNOME

[vagrant sinew]

to kill spooder you casual

[sly shore]

because rogue has to be gnome on Queen

I LOVE P1 REQUIRING IT

[shut sonnet]

🫡

[civic lake]

damn, just readin through so we all going sin now basically?

[strange chasm]

tad less then sub and you'll do more damage because you won't get griefed if you get a mechanic

[sly shore]

Not on queen

Gotta use some critical thinking on queen cos sub is definitely better right now

[strange chasm]

What makes it better? Just the shorter cds and tankiness?

[shrewd lantern]

is there like

a burn shield phase

on mythic ansurek

honestly norm+hc outlaw felt the best of the three

[tawdry belfry]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tepid trellis]

just cloak the charge

0 mechs on that fight

[hazy breach]

Or get Bop ye

But keeping cloak for the intermission felt significantly more safe and better for progress

Even though cloaking the charge is obviously the play for pure damage

[shrewd lantern]

kyveza just feels like a terrible rogue boss

overall

[hazy breach]

Rogues was just tuned fairly low for pure ST this tier, although with these sin buffs and later the .5 buffs its probably fine

[shrewd lantern]

which spec benefits the most from those buffs even

[flint sundial]

does cloak only prevent the kyveza charge dot during the 1 sec?

or can you do it at any time

[dusky tundra]

Is playing assa with sub stats viable in m+?

[hazy breach]

ye

[hard wren]

what about m+?

[hazy breach]

What about it

[gaunt tiger]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

but what about MALE models

[tribal blade]

ok so sub gained damage, but so did everyone else

so still getting gapped

this is just amazing

[left ledge]

sub rogue doesnt do m+

sin is disgusting in m+

easily top 3 dps

[hard wren]

Why only one viable methic plos spec from rogue?

[hexed bluff]

These comments are only for extremely high levels of gameplay, correct?

[rocky wolf]

Sub has a few bugs that hurt it quite a bit in m+, its def good on some fights but sin just does a lot of dmg and has great utility

[hard wren]

And outlaw over nerfed

[hazy breach]

What, outlaw got buffed to be stronger than before they got nerfed

[hexed bluff]

Outlaw is fun

[hard wren]

The set nerf?

[velvet arrow]

Couldn't find any pov of Court as assa

[hazy breach]

They got nerfed like 2% and then they got buffed 4.5%'

Outlaw is fine, its just outlaw

[velvet arrow]

anyways in my raid we only have 1 rogue (me)

Eleem do u think is worth for me to go assa as only rog in Silken Court mythic?

just cuz im missing transmiter

[hazy breach]

[velvet arrow]

help me im gonna cry :c

[uneven scarab]

Just sim 2t and see what does better

[velvet arrow]

can't sim that boss

cuz u get 200% dmg amplifier when boss gets stuned

[pliant topaz]

exile killed it world first as sin

[velvet arrow]

obviously subt is better than assa in that boss but without transmitter idk

[pliant topaz]

youre not the deciding factor most likely

[velvet arrow]

I can't find the pov

can u link me?

[uneven scarab]

I mean based on the damage dif between the two specs you could probably just assume even with the amp

With no transmitter its not like ur doing that much on the amp as sub

[pliant topaz]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2259735572 like 2 hours in

its their reclear

[velvet arrow]

tysm

[warm depot]

anyone know if ilvl affect embellishment dmg?

or just rank of the embellishment

[hazy breach]

The rank has 0 effect

Ilvl affects some of them very very minorly, like lense does 5% more at 636 than 606

But ascendance or lining doesnt scale

[gaunt tiger]

what build should i run for heroic queen

[shy scarab]

!fuu

[steel horizon]

rank only effects crafting difficulty

[warm depot]

thx

[fossil holly]

anyone else finding it a real grind to get crests for upgrades this season

feels like in DF i was banging them out and getting crests pretty fast

now even +4s feel like a slog sometimes

[gaunt tiger]

they redid difficulty scaling

[devout skiff]

dungeon squish was too much of a squish

shoulda made 15's feel like 20's instead of 6-7

[still quartz]

agreed like for now, gap between 10 11 12 is insane

oh they just nerfed m+

[shy scarab]

!fuu

[prisma stump]

not gonna lie, spamming 8s to level your gear up is the fucking juice

good change

[steel horizon]

pretty nice yeah

[tribal blade]

ok finally did it, hit 2700

[wind canopy]

Naisu

[tribal blade]

dunno if i like playing DS in keys to be quite honest

[edgy zenith]

i think it's bad

just play trickster and bang packs every 1.5m

i think it's also bad on every boss fight in the raid

DS poop

[tribal blade]

when i play trickster i play DB 2 min build, i like it more

maybe 11s are too low

i need to try DS with a 12

DS relies even more on ramp than trickster

although corrupt the blood doesn't seem to actually do much dmg

yeah it sucks, the hell

[steel horizon]

i really want to like ds in keys lol but so far im still meh about it

[sudden lark]

idk

2 min feels REALLY uncomfortable

on trash

[tribal blade]

feels much more comfortable to me

[sudden lark]

i think im fking braindead for not using flag on cd

when clearing trash

feelsbadman

i think i gotta just ignore blades unless it's st right

[steel horizon]

i try to use flag on cd for trash

[steel horizon]

not necessarily st. its still good on low cleave like 2-3 targets

[sudden lark]

i can't wait

for flag and blade to be the same cd

lol

[steel horizon]

cant come soon enough

1 min flag feels like it woulda been nice for m+ though. kinda sad they scrapped it

oh well

[tribal blade]

general consensus is they need to shift damage back into dance

[steel horizon]

Blades feels good now though. Remember how boring it was before 10.2.5 or whenever that df rework was

[tribal blade]

fuu has the idea of baking blades into dance

accomplishes 2 things right there

nah they won't do that

they got rid of it because of snapshot bullshit

[steel horizon]

Blades + dance would be nuts

[tribal blade]

it was a pain for the devs

[tribal blade]

OR would it just make us a proper spec 😉

[steel horizon]

Theyd never do it. No balls

[tribal blade]

because you see how we struggle right now

[pliant topaz]

i dont really get what blades into dance accomplishes tbh.

[steel horizon]

It would make every dance impactful for sure

[pliant topaz]

i like the idea of putting blades's damage into dance though

[tribal blade]

do you think the cd of dance should be 30 secs

[pliant topaz]

yea

[tribal blade]

i agree

[steel horizon]

30 sec with no cdr bullshit?

[tribal blade]

cdr is pointless on dance

it's not exactly like we can dance whenever it's back up

[steel horizon]

Its annoying on some fights when u cant get enough cdr to triple dance later into the fight

[tribal blade]

yeah being able to press everything on cd was a big thing

[gaunt tiger]

anyone tired DS on heroic queen?

[pliant topaz]

yeah what sup

okay u cooked a little too much with sectech and dance ngl

[steel horizon]

Lool

Thats only if danse macabre functioned in reverse

[tribal blade]

did they fix supercharger on the ptr yet, i hear it's still broken

[steel horizon]

Then u can combine dance and sectec lol

I assume supercharger will still be broken in 2 weeks

I guess they want the dmg profile to be different than outlaw. Idk

Fingers crossed for some last minute ptr changes lol

[gaunt tiger]

what talents are you using on queen? Im struggling to make this do as much as trickster

[pliant topaz]

tricksters overall probably better

deathstalkers a lot more paddy

u would need to pad a lot to make it do more

[edgy zenith]

how is DS even more paddy? isn't trickster AoE still better for like 30s?

[tepid trellis]

BP does alot of dam

as DS

[pliant topaz]

u get to pad a lot more on the ads in p3.

little guys in p2

tombs in p1

[edgy zenith]

yeah but like P2 is only part you can pad really no?

[pliant topaz]

not really

[edgy zenith]

i feel like trickster in P2 is still stronger AoE

but I'm also a big DS hater

and maybe I'm not palying it right or something

you run dust still or nah?

[tepid trellis]

trickster just doesent do alot

nimble is kinda mid

[tribal blade]

is the move to actually not spread rupture that much in M+

as DS

considering BP

[brisk onyx]

nimble is still cleave 40% ?

[tribal blade]

next 11 i try i'm gonna see

12 might be ok because stuff lives way longer

[tepid trellis]

yes it do be bugged still

[tribal blade]

bugged OR they literally just didn't update it

because fuck you sub

[brisk onyx]

[alpine wraith]

they updated tooltip but not ingame

then forgot

they were liek TEHEEE

they can hotfix many things but not our bugs

[tepid trellis]

its not like he can really do anything directly about it

[alpine wraith]

yea they are a team

and have a pipeline

so chances are it gets low prio unlucky fuck you

playing the 0,5% representation spec

we are the flint getting radioctive water after 15 years

[tribal blade]

what do they call it in war, triage

[alpine wraith]

ye

[tribal blade]

don't try to save someone who's dying

save the people who have a chance

[alpine wraith]

no more like you save in order of importance

too

[tribal blade]

ah yeah true

[alpine wraith]

apart from state

[tribal blade]

so sub is allllll the way at the bottom

[alpine wraith]

yea we are the 76 old disabled man

[uneven scarab]

[tribal blade]

why would we waste all these bandages and medicine on a dying spec

[alpine wraith]

vs bm hunter that is the 25 year old man in his prime and ret a pregnant lady

[uneven scarab]

[alpine wraith]

maybe if only they let us buy more mtx

so i could spend 30k in the game and they see sub as valuable players

smh

oh shit this people STACKED IN CASH

time to buff the spec

[tribal blade]

just need some really high profile wow players to start maining sub

there are a few, but they're not very vocal on issues

lol there's no way

he won't be able to press everything on cd like warr

[uneven scarab]

I cant even imagine trying to watch that

true we would profit hard

[shrewd lantern]

asmongold can barely play retail warrior

[uneven scarab]

okay time for max to play sub rogue

A+ tier spec huge funnel dam

[shrewd lantern]

That's the sad part

sin does more funnel dam nowadays

unironically

[uneven scarab]

yeah they actually do alot more lmfao

i just mean the singular focus meme

Atleast sin gets to use it really well

[tribal blade]

nah never happening

he knows literally nothing about sub, and doesn't want to

see every video he makes about specs, he ends up getting to sub, reads the changes, and then halfway through gives up, says "...i don't know what any of this means" and then just skips to the next spec

[uneven scarab]

well it doesnt even work on our “big finisher”

[uneven scarab]

Yeah and this is a massive part of the problem

[tribal blade]

it's very frustrating

[uneven scarab]

I dont think it works with it at all dude

Yep

I think it was buggy in beta and they said fuck it

[tribal blade]

it straight up doesn't count clones, i think because they count as pets

[uneven scarab]

Yeah

It literally just feels like sub is the middle child

no love

[uneven scarab]

For real like its actually upsetting to see someone just react that way about a spec you enjoy

I just think its crazy how much value sin can get out of it and like sure bp singular focus is cool but like ???

[gaunt tiger]

how bad is mast/vers on sin

[uneven scarab]

its fine

works just fine, i multispec both a bit with pretty low crit and perform fine

and im hard vers/mast

[gaunt tiger]

i feel so dirty going sin, its gross

like im cheating

[uneven scarab]

I think its the realization of why am i trying to play sub in keys when i could just pisschill playing assa and be way more useful

[gaunt tiger]

ive seriously had people join then leave after seeing im sub

i dont even do bad dps T_T

[uneven scarab]

yeah unfortunately community perception is everything

my push group even doesnt mind me playing sub because they know i love it

but it literally feels like im trolling them

Assa has iron wire/lots more consistent dam

makes a big difference

[gaunt tiger]

yeah its sad, our time is coming surely

[uneven scarab]

Iron wire value alone is insane

fucking love that talent

[alpine wraith]

found a log of a deathstalker playing DS

seems a bit worse at least but i guess more people have to try it

[uneven scarab]

I tried it the other day and definitely performed way worse but im just not used to it

[gaunt tiger]

hows outlaw doing?

[uneven scarab]

Theyre pretty solid from what ive heard

[tepid trellis]

yeah their heads are pretty dense

[gaunt tiger]

werent they pretty bad in beta? I havent played outlaw since i hit glad in SL

[uneven scarab]

They got buffs somewhat recently after getting nerfed

[gaunt tiger]

too bad id have to completely regear

[uneven scarab]

i think i might try it if i get a free fist wep from raid or something

otherwise i probably wont even bother

[alpine wraith]

also seems not only the class designers say fuck and send it to prod and forget https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1g0qe11/via_wowhead_datamining_in_an_effort_to_break/

likely ernesto javier wanted to go sleep

[marsh flame]

Hey folks, im really really struggling to do well on sub, I'm a pretty experienced player at this game, and can do well on other dps specs but just seem to be not clicking with this and wanna work it out haha!

I've read the guides and watched a few videos but can't really pin down what I'm doing so horribly wrong. I'm a povo casual at the moment and not looking to win the meters, just don't want to be doing horrible, maybe aiming for like 50% parses with minimal gold spendature haha.

I think I follow the rotation in and out of dance/flag cd well enough for both trickster and deathstalker. Am using trickster for any fight that has adds at all.

A few things working against me... im often playing in american servers from aus, which leads me to occasionally lag a little and not realise i got a refund of my combo pts from shad techniques (maybe missing like 1 refund each flag cd set on average i guess), and I wonder if it means im missing some possible hits in my dance windows too.
I'm not always noticing I have fazed up or not on the target im hitting, do you guys have a good weak aura for that? I do have one for shad techs/shad dance/flawless form/and the darkest night + clear witnesses.
I'm not in the habit of always hitting from behind the target, does parry screw you that badly?
Im not really using flasks/pots or high level enchants yet.
and stats on gear have been pretty unlucky, I only have like 5000mastery and unfortunately like 7000 haste, which im working on fixing as i play.

Some stuff I wasnt sure of.
Do you guys ever use Coup de grace if procs like STRAIGHT after a dance ends? Or still just hold for the next one?
Does Nimble strikes aoe around you or the add you are hitting?
Never use shadow blades/flag when adds are out, just on single target wrecking boss yeah?
Do you use shurikan storm to get more combo pts outside of dance when there is a quite a few adds to bust through the combo pts quicker? or the damage from single targetting one add with nimble cleave still win out?
Do you ever hold sectec/dance/symbols etc for when adds are coming soon or just keep busting em out anyway?
Do you maintain rupture outside of dance on multiple adds or better to just use nimble cleave at that point?

OH! and is it worth holding cds on say... silken court for when they take 100% dam, or just blow on entry and CD reset to do cleave to both

[vale pine]

haha, i think it was a fairly obviouse problem

[vale pine]

I see you took a bit of effort to write this.

• Lag can be a problem, but shouldn't be in general unless you have like 300+ ping
• Fazed targets can't parry
• There is a lot of damage in combat potions, you should use them
• Having significant amounts of haste is rly bad for subtlety

[marsh flame]

it is sorta right on 300 ping when i play with them 😛

yer right, so parry shouldnt be that big an issue

[pliant topaz]

also the refund thing might not be purely lag dependant

if youtr playing trickster, the refund is delayed a bit after coup because of how it works

[alpine wraith]

rs and coup can fuck with refunds

[pliant topaz]

or if youre plating replicating shadows, that one also is bugged

[wispy bolt]

refunds are really ass this season

[alpine wraith]

also if you have like 5 sht as coup begins but end with 7

it refunds

but game is weird and takes a bit to do it

best you can do is have a sht tracker and know this can happen

[wispy bolt]

my tracker has been making less noise thisseason. ssignificantly less refunds

[vale pine]

• you only hold coup if your next symbols cycle has blades/flag
• nimble is around you
• you use your major cooldowns always
• you always use storm outside of dance
• you can hold shortly if the fight requires it
• rupture on any add that survives for longer

[wispy bolt]

then all of a sudden its 4 in a row

[vale pine]

just a quick tip dazz

we are a community, and there is no rush

so take your time, relax and ask one question at the time

it gives you the option to get more details, and we have many players in here which can answer your questions

[marsh flame]

thanks haha, i always feel like im wasting peoples time and feel bad so just blurt all my questions hahaha!

[vale pine]

you are not the only one reading the answers, so others might have similar questions

also its better to understand something, so asking one thing at the time makes it easier to point at specific areas

"how does it work"

[pliant topaz]

thats the whole point of this discord, to share ideas, help people with the spec/class, discuss the spec etc.

dont worry about asking your questions

[vale pine]

^

[edgy zenith]

wtf I didn't know top 2 actually, thought nimble flurry was literally blade flurry and wtf how long did you only hold coup if next symbols is 1.5mins?

[alpine wraith]

what fuu said is you dont hold coup if next dance or sod is not the one with flag blades

so you dont hold on for ex the 40 sec SoD alone or the 60 secs dance

[vale pine]

nimble i am not 100% sure about, but thats how i remembered it.
Maybe somone who tested it more extensively knows for sure

[alpine wraith]

it does around you

that is why we are not broken in rasha nan

like assa and feral were

[edgy zenith]

yeah, that's what I said. I had no idea

[vale pine]

okay, sorry i missremembered then

replicating shadows is from your target tho

[edgy zenith]

so basically you just send it unless your next time you pop SoD is in flag window

had no idea

[vale pine]

let me quick edit the list above, so future readers don't get wrong info

[edgy zenith]

thought it was always hold and only send in SoD

[vale pine]

the problem with coup is

[alpine wraith]

well

[vale pine]

by holding

you lose coup casts

so its always a trade off

[alpine wraith]

you are not proccing unseen too from resets

that are super rng

the potential to lose some dps is there

[pliant topaz]

nimble is around you. its lterally blade flurry.

[hollow patio]

Holy shit, I've been holding coup until next SD and SOD window until now 🤣

[pliant topaz]

which is why i was so weirded out when they realized the problem with range of BF on outlaw

and are increasing it in 11.0.5

but not for sub

[vale pine]

perfect, thanks

[vale pine]

blizz loves inconsistencies

[magic ruin]

Lads do we have any info about how strong sub is after dust is removed? I’m worried there is not enough compensation for not resetting cds on CB, secret tech and dance. Also when a raid boss is getting low it could let us dish out some extra dps by doing a premature dust

[vale pine]

non dust builds are ~4% behind atm

and we get

supercharger

and

having lower cooldown of blades leads to more flagellation casts

so both mitigate the loss

[vernal sleet]

On a separate note, does anyone else here use Hekili? I've noticed a bug with the cooldowns - it doesn't ever recommend flag because SB cd tracker is perma-stuck at 180 seconds (for a 2 min cd lmao). It also never recommends SB because it waits for flag to go off (if talented). I've been trying to fix it but I don't know if this is something you can fix in Hekili

[still quartz]

!up

[raw ivy]

i dont think hekili is good to use or to learn the sub spec

its all about adaptation

and muscle memories

our burst windows are so tight

(in dust trickster)

but i dunno bout your bug

[vernal sleet]

I mean fair call, I guess to each their own on this one. I'm a hardcore altoholic so I'm mostly using it because sub is one of the specs I've never gotten my head around

[magic ruin]

@vale pine okay thanks. I feel like sub needs a slight dps increase from where it is currently now as well. For mythic bosses with a lot of mechanics reducing uptime we fall so far behind, and we are not that good in cleave fights either...

[vale pine]

!up (sry i did quickly restart moroes)

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[vale pine]

hekili is fine, its typically better to learn a spec

rather than relying on addons like hekili

the problem of them is

they don't tell you mistakes

[vernal sleet]

That's true, but aren't mistakes best identified in the logs afterwards? i.e not really the domain of hekili anyway

[raw ivy]

one of my guildmate used hekili to play sub on fumeron

[vale pine]

i like to take a story from legion i had

somone came to me, saying he has no idea what he is doing

he does everything correct

[raw ivy]

he never understand the spec and gave up on it

[vale pine]

follows the rotaition helper

has good gear

but does no damage

and he indeed did everything the rotation helper showed

BUT

he used one ability every ~3 seconds

the rotation helper is in no way designed for this

it does not consider you sitting there afk for 2 seconds after every gcd

[tribal blade]

we've been having a lot of people coming in here recently talking about using heliki

[vale pine]

so the problem was

the addon tries to follow strict rules

and adjusts to the setting

so it gave a sense of security

"i do everthing correct"

[raw ivy]

but it enslave you

[vale pine]

it is a extreme example, but a good highlight how there are strict limitations of what a rotation helper can do

same thing applies to some optimizations

e.g. dfa had a sequence where you would use dance off gcd

which wasn't obviouse for anyone using a roation helper

the player would just

use dfa

and dance way later

throwing away a big part of the damage

if you want some aid for gameplay, rotation helpers are typically fine

[tribal blade]

the smashing dance button while landing with dfa, that was pretty fun

[vale pine]

but make sure to read up how the rotaiton works

[vernal sleet]

Honestly

That sounds like a success story instead of an example of failure

[vale pine]

why

[tribal blade]

huh

[vernal sleet]

the player identified that Hekili was at its limits for helping him and so he reached out for more help/did more research

[vale pine]

no

[vernal sleet]

in this case asking for some help and realising that Hekili couldn't do more for him

[vale pine]

the player reached out

because he was convinced he does everything correct

even fight with me

and only after a lot of talking showed a log

[vernal sleet]

Okay but social failings and overconfidence can't be attributed to Hekili

that's just not fair

[raw ivy]

IMO when you start the sub spec its like a big wall you'll have to climb by playing practicing and questioning people who already played it

because the guide even if they are really good are not enough

[half galleon]

i feel like you shouldnt actually play with hekili since it wont teach you the actuall spec but at the start if you want to get to know the spec a bit and see what you use after what isnt that bad

[vale pine]

i think you try to frame it better than it actually is

let me explain what i mean

if you learn a spec you would typically just go to a dummy, open a guide or a youtube video that explains it

setup your bars and try to perform the rotation

by using hekili you just skip that part

if you in both cases struggle to perform

you will try to get help

[vernal sleet]

I feel like you're making some big assumptions here about me

[half galleon]

yea like what i do everytime i try to play with a totally new spec is i either have the yt video on 2nd monitor or i just read some abilities but some people are just lazy to that i guess and skip shrug

[tribal blade]

it's like bowling when you have the guardrails up so your bowling ball can't go into the gutter

[vale pine]

somone who does not use hekili can just go to discord and ask questions more specifically

somone who uses hekili just goes

"i do everything correct, but no damage"

the second case isn't a success story

if the player had just simply read a guide, he probably would have gotten further than where he was without

it is just the effort he took was lower

and as such the amount of things he as a individual need to learn

to even get to the point the other person is

[raw ivy]

thats why i think hekili is all about "bad habit"

[vale pine]

is higher, and it means people in discord need to spend even more time explaining even the very basics

and i know from experience how lazy people are

[tribal blade]

well if you completely follow a bot you throw objective thinking out the window

like shifting cds somewhere else

or holding stuff to have damage for an event

[vale pine]

i did analyse ~50-80 logs (maybe even more) in e.g. S1 DF you can still look up in the threads section above

[keen dome]

Never learning the "why" is very detrimental to learning in general. Gotta understand why we do things, not just doing them because.

[vale pine]

and the majority of them did simply refuse to read guides

[brave escarp]

Amen to that

[rocky lava]

the only thing I use Hekili for is when i start a new spec, do a couple of heroic dungeons on it to build a muscle memory for keybinds and find out if something is awkward then ditch the addon

[vale pine]

and wanted somone to just tell them what is written in guides personally

the real use of hekili and other similar addons is

to reduce your mental load

to know e.g. when to use CT in aoe

or when to rupture a mob

[brave escarp]

Reading the wowhead guide got me started but asking and reading here about the why got me refined

[vernal sleet]

I feel at this point like I'm not really getting the answer to my original question about this bug, and I'm not really being heard or being convinced otherwise. For what it's worth, I've been following the Wowhead and Icyveins guides and using Hekili to get the muscle memory going - it seems to align really well with the Wowhead rotation guide, and I already understand the ABCs/holding CDs/etc

[tribal blade]

i just go through guides and sit on the target dummies for hours

there's no point doing a dungeon with stuff going on

[vernal sleet]

so I'm going to bow out of the conversation here

[rocky lava]

that also works but if the spec does not click for me, I just wont play it 😄

[vale pine]

what bug question?

[vernal sleet]

this one

[tribal blade]

i believe you won't be able to do the rotation in actual combat until you can do it w/o thinking too much on the dummies 😉

[vale pine]

the problem with that question is

neither of us is working on hekili

[keen dome]

I'd agree with how we typically learn. But sometimes I just like to all gas no breaks a new class into content. Let's go! What does this button do?!? I don't know let's find out!

[vale pine]

so it is a question you should post on curseforge, or directly contact the author

[tribal blade]

hehe fair

this is a really bad place to ask about hekili

[vale pine]

you can iirc else look at the logic and see if there is a mistake there

[vernal sleet]

I mean yeah, but I like fucking about with code and I figured if it was going to be fixed ad-hoc anywhere, it'd be in the Sub rogue class discord discussion

[keen dome]

But hitting dummies is alwasy good advice. I always tell people trying to improve to just go practice their rotation for 5 - 10 minutes a day. Get that schemata going, get those muscle memories going.

[tribal blade]

nobody in here uses it, it goes against the very use of this discord

[vernal sleet]

Okay, and now I know

I wasn't aware before, and now I am

[vale pine]

its not rly against the use of the discord

[rocky lava]

that is true but i still use it as a soft-filter for specs. last time I tried something in DFS1 while it was timewalking and haven't touched the whole class since

[vernal sleet]

I wasn't expecting a 4 person takedown of how I play WoW tbh

[vale pine]

but rotaiton helpers, as mentioned are more a tool to help with mental load problems

[tribal blade]

i mean more like this place is for educating about the rotation

[vale pine]

which weakauras also solve

we don't work together with hekili

but iirc he re-uses parts of the apl

(APL = action priority list, basically what decides how the robot plays the game)

so there is only a indirect dependency

you can try if hero-rotation works, i think it is kept up to date

it is a alternative approach but for the same problem

[wild vine]

Dont they work the same? Never had either, but from what ive heard

[vale pine]

haha, all fine, if it helps you thats fine. You just need to realize that many of us gave advise to many players and as such are well aware of problems addons like this create. So i think its understandable why defaulting to advise the removal of the depency makes sense.

[small crown]

!log

[vale pine]

hekili has their own framework and iirc now parses the apl form what i remember.
It prior did implement rules close to the apl, but not 1:1.
(i haven't exactly followed it, would need to look it up)
Hero rotaiton is a 1:1 re-implementation of the apl as addon

hekili when i used had some nice features, making it more appealing

[wild vine]

Ah alright ye, then that fits. Think Whispyr at some point mentioned he doesnt know what hekili follows, but it definitely wasnt his apl at that time

[vale pine]

iirc it tried to predict more than one cast

[vale pine]

i haven't tested in tww

i just got told the author has some sort of apl parser for it to help him port that

does not mean he re-uses 100% of the apl

[half galleon]

Quick question after the BP buff is DS brew build better now untill they fix nimble or is trickster still better for M+ ofc

[alpine wraith]

you can try DS

[half galleon]

that does not sound good

[vale pine]

results i had last time i tested ended up the following:

• It worked well with the rough rotational details
• Most of the decisions/optimizations that ended up more specific did not suggest the correct ability use

so basically, what it did well was equal to

"fuu can you teach me the rotation in 4-5 scentences"

BUT just to iterate on it, it might be better now. It is simply something i don't test regularely

[tribal blade]

DS is better now yes

you lose some ST but gain AOE

[half galleon]

[tribal blade]

i also suspect with the buff to BP we can be a little more lax on spreading ruptures

since BP hits really hard now

[vale pine]

as trickster always could be a bit relaxed

[tribal blade]

well, much harder than before and harder than rupture

[vale pine]

deathstalekr does quite good damage with rupture

[tribal blade]

it does, but the only issue is when mobs get blown up

seems to me like everything under a 12 stuff dies too fast for full rupture value

[vale pine]

ye, no reaosn to spread to mobs that melt

[tribal blade]

around +12 mobs start to live long enough for full value of rupture spreading

[half galleon]

surely they will fix the shadowcraft bug soon

[vale pine]

replicating shadows has the same bug

[half galleon]

surely some love to sub rogue will come soon

[vale pine]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1167

[vale pine]

i hope so, i think the dust replacement is quite dissapointing

[half galleon]

even tho dust can be hard to learn but i feel like its a cool talent idk why they are moving around that instead of reworking some old and outdated talents

[vale pine]

i just simply talk from a power level perspective

basically

how much better/worse is dust compared to the new talent

[tulip token]

Dust shortens CDs a ton and helps you get even more burst damage out and its still not good enough for people to play sub.... Now they wanna take it our and what comes instead? Is it just another charge of symbols?

[vale pine]

exactly

but if you think about, its worse

let me quick explain what i mean

basically, dust did mean you get a reset of symbols cooldown every 2 minutes

the new talent gives you one symbols charge, thats it kinda

so on a 5 mintue fight

you get 3 symbols uses from dust

[tulip token]

So we get rid of dust, add a charge of symbols when we were already getting that charge from dust and we get none of the benefit of getting other CDs back

sick idea

[vale pine]

vs. 2 from the new talent

[lean roost]

Heya sub brains, on silken court do you save dance and blades for the snub charge where he gets increased dmg? Or just use cds in opener?

[tulip token]

That is so trash...

[vale pine]

so my point is, even if you reduce dust to only symbols

its already worse

[tulip token]

Does dust affect cloak or evasion at all?

[vale pine]

yes

[plush roost]

Yerp

[vale pine]

it reduced cooldown on them too

[tulip token]

So they lose defensives too

[plush roost]

And sprint and shadowstep

[tulip token]

sickkkkk

[last cradle]

do we still play trickster on m+ or deathstalker is the play now?

[plush roost]

A lot of underated bonuses to dust

[vale pine]

don't worry

they also make our passive heal worse,
soothing darkness change:

[tulip token]

lmfao

[half galleon]

meanwhile DK's sitting on a 30 sec cloak

[tulip token]

so they said

[half galleon]

[wispy bolt]

Rework is just a nerf

[vale pine]

its not a rework

they simply wanted to get rid of dust

[wispy bolt]

“Rework”

[vale pine]

so they did

they wanted to make subterfuge work for sin -> done

[sweet summit]

gg sub

[vale pine]

they wanted to make ER passive -> done

[tulip token]

"Sub players seem upset and there are barely any players playing sub at that. What should we do?" And someone said I have an idea

https://tenor.com/view/dumping-trash-daniel-labelle-frustrated-garbage-trash-gif-27186872

[last cradle]

anyone know?

[vale pine]

it isn't that bad

supercharger is rly good for us

and the change to blades

[plush roost]

DS more aoe, trickster more ST

[vale pine]

is a buff because we don't need to hold flag for 30 secs

[wispy bolt]

DS but I prefer trickster on some dungeons

[plush roost]

Both fine, sub still pales compared to sin in keys

[sweet summit]

tricks on NW ?

[last cradle]

ye that ik

[fallow nimbus]

Cloak back to 1.5min maybe?

[tulip token]

NW always felt like a tricks dungeon to me

[wispy bolt]

I run tricks on cot

[tulip token]

Well that is good, I just want to see this spec get some love

[vale pine]

the removal of dust makes it easier for new players, because it makes the spec less complicated

and it removes potential problems

basically s3 DF had very difficult coodlown management

and it changed depending on fight lengh

while this was nice for progress

it sucked hard on farm

[plush roost]

Smolderon :))

[vale pine]

so its understandable why the dev team wanted to chaneg dust

the initial suggested chanegs ended up more fun tho

1 min flag

in combination with 2 chargs symbols

[wispy bolt]

I just want rupture removed. We aren’t sin

[vale pine]

would have lead to a rly big burst every minute

[wispy bolt]

Maintaining dots is cringe

[vale pine]

also would be rly good for m+

somehow

[tulip token]

Would have been super fun in m+

[vale pine]

that was reverted

and now its almost the same as 11.0

but with less tools and defensives

which seemed like the goal

quality of life changes

[half galleon]

arent they also adding a new dance thingy were if you are out of combat ur next dance is longer or something ?

[fallow nimbus]

Ngl the 1min and 2min would have been better even if it is more like assa but it seems blizz likes assa so why not?

[vale pine]

yes

[wild vine]

They can change it to nightblade again so you have even more dot management

[vale pine]

they 100% chanegd it because of assassiantion

to not have the same damage profile

[wild vine]

2 specs doing nearly the same is pretty eww

[vale pine]

the change makes no sense else

[fallow nimbus]

This spec just holds us back

[sweet summit]

the way the dmg is accomplished would be alot diff though : (

[vale pine]

because 1 min flag improves the spec more than 1 min 30 blades

[vale pine]

we do the same since 10.2

it was designed that way

it just happened that dust was giving us the option not to

[wild vine]

They should just make both 1 min so we are back to the glorious times of being a 1 min spec

[vale pine]

yes

[fallow nimbus]

All assa does is steal from the other two and pushing them to the side

[vale pine]

wod sub

[wild vine]

Ye thats why I said it, its better to have different profiles in the same class

[vale pine]

it seems like this, but what the dev team is is making sure people have a easy choice

it is why assassiantion is tuned better

the spec had mroe dev time put into it, and it gives rogue one spec with easier rotation and more fleshed out tree

so rogue does not look like a trainwreck in general

e.g. if you look at m+

every class now has at least one good spec

for raid similar

[sweet summit]

assass is not the enemy brothers

[vale pine]

yes exactly

it is not assassiantion vs. outlaw vs. subtlety

[sweet summit]

its sub vs blizzard : )

jk

[wild vine]

Idk I always feel like seeing it like that isnt good. Sin is still fairly different if sub is a 1.5 min spec. The whole outlaw bladeflurry comparison is pretty lacking aswell, its just a mechanic thats part of the game on multiple occasions that just works a bit different every time

[half galleon]

we should fight against the DK's hate those guys

[fallow nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-norman-osborn-angry-you-know-how-much-gif-24182900

[vale pine]

blade flurry is now put on many classes

[sweet summit]

tbh

[vale pine]

the game is basically getting more similar

[sweet summit]

were all against outlaw here : )

[vale pine]

on classes

i don't hate outlaw

[sweet summit]

i think there a complete flavor fail

but

[timid pulsar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sweet summit]

i respect the funny gun shot lights up and makes the dopamine sound

[vale pine]

to shortly come back to this

i think this talent is interessting to discuss

because of how out of place it seems

[sweet summit]

lol dont chain for rogues new talent

like what

[half galleon]

its kinda useless in higher keys no ? since you get less stealth time and chain pulls and all that

[vale pine]

basically, esp. assassination

[wild vine]

Ye its just a game thing in general, not something sin specifically took from outlaw. I also dont really dislike it if its still somewhat different enough. Dk basically has a similar mechanic aswell and noone sees it as that (atleast those that complain dont)

[fallow nimbus]

Pvp talent at best but 10 secs ooc is a long ass time in pvp

[vale pine]

does for multiple patches now mention how re-stealth reliance is bad

and this talent

[sweet summit]

nah say u get 1v1d by another assass

easy ten seconds ooc : )

[vale pine]

now only adds re-strealth dependencies

[sweet summit]

sub *

[vale pine]

but also a 6 sec additional timer

so its worse than something that requires stealth

[sweet summit]

why add a talent that makes tank hate more

[vale pine]

my point isn't tanking

my point is, the design seems weird

if restealths are seen as problem

somone came into the office and was like

[wispy bolt]

They could do some cool stuff like after a marked target dies, you can stealth again in combat

[half galleon]

" they are helping sub aoe "

[wild vine]

Maybe they are just fed up with people saying restealthing is so important if its not, so they offer people more of a reason to complain about not getting a restealth

[vale pine]

"oh ye, subtlety has no re-stealth dependency in 11.0.5, lets add a talent that adds it but make it even less practical"

[tulip token]

Come on guys, it will be such a cool talent in those +4 keys where we pull one pack at a time

[shy ermine]

If you stop thinking about it practically, it is thematically strange that subtlety is the only spec without stealth reliance

[vale pine]

i dislike everything about that idea

[keen dome]

I said this the other day and it still makes me snicker.

Sub, the most thematically built around shadows / stealth is the least dependent on it.

[vale pine]

basically

[sweet summit]

blizzard made outlaw so i dont expect them to nail anything theme wise

[vale pine]

any mechanic

that requires you to use stealth

to then access other spells

is for me bad deisgn

[pallid prawn]

And outlaw the one that should be playable without stealth, is most reliant on it

[tulip token]

What about a "When you vanish the next shadow dance is x seconds longer"

[wispy bolt]

But if they’re gonna do it, we should have a way to stealth

[vale pine]

"oh look, a proc, better use stealth in the next 3 seconds"

sounds terrible

[wispy bolt]

Like they obviously want stealth reliance

[vale pine]

why not just give subterfuge then?

[keen dome]

100%

[wispy bolt]

It is bad design but blizzard blows so

[vale pine]

there is a very simple explenation why

subtlety is not stealth reliant

so let me

DF came with a talent tree rework, and it added Shadow Dance to the general tree

the consequence, assassiantion and outlaw needed to be designed to get benefits from stealth mechanics

[wild vine]

Idk, shadows yes, but stealth is still a general core aspect of the class. The thing is that they tied most stuff to dance, so subter isnt even a valid option with granting the stealth access, which in turn means it lost value comparatively

[vale pine]

but because you didn't want to force dance onto them

things got designed to work around stealth, so vanish is a good alternative

this did lead to the subtlety design

basically what was a new design space for assassiantion/outlaw

and gave them a bunch of new oppotunities

was the baseline for subtlety

it is why our tree was and still is mostly nothing new

but to make subtlety diffrent and keep its niche

it needed to be the spec that uses shadow dance the best

so spells got buffed/changed to put more emphasize on dance rather than stealth

the benefit of it is, subtlety is now the least dependent on stealth

[wild vine]

Personally would like to see all the dance stuff working with subter

[vale pine]

so its all logical by design

so "OMG sub does not depent on stealth"

seems to me perfectly fine

it was deisgned around dance, not stealth

in fact, assassiantion/outlaw might be better designed around vanish than stealth

and have vanish on reduced cooldown

[wild vine]

Indeed.
But some subter benefit would still be nice. Maybe they could make it add 1/2s to dance or something even

[fallow nimbus]

Subterfuge added dance time in the past, why couldn't it now too? Like 1 or 2 sec per point

[vale pine]

11.0.5 shows the direction

subterfuge was changed to solve assassiantions low value

but there was no consideration to also fix it for subtlety

a easy fix would be

+1 sec of shadow dance per point

it is in fact.. what the spell did in Legion

[fallow nimbus]

You see the line? Everything involves assa, how can't people not get mad when all changes have something like "...because assa"

[sweet summit]

fuck legion give us someth new

[vale pine]

supercharger is very much a sub talent

[sweet summit]

cuz its a good fun rogue spec

hurts no one

[vale pine]

but its good on assassiatnion too now with added envenom talents

[fallow nimbus]

That's an accident

[vale pine]

i don't think so

the talent just wanted to keep the combo point benefit

[fallow nimbus]

Assa people complained they had to press er actively

[vale pine]

the rework rly just tried to make it passive

tea change is similar to it

they tried to give people the option to unbind it

the game in general tries to simplify rotations and reduce button count currently

[sweet summit]

i thought tea change was fine when i played assass but now its bound to my dance so im worried how thats gonna wrk

[vale pine]

because developers seem to have discovered

that having too many binds isn't a net positive for excitement

[wispy bolt]

One of the biggest problems with spec design in this game is blizzard focuses more on providing variety with choices (see hero talents, and multiple nodes) and some broad vision in their minds. Meanwhile, the players typically only care about what build gives the highest DPS. An example is what was the point of having a hero talent choice when there is clearly just a better option and you never play the other. Creating a single vision and play style/rotation, with reworks on a cycle, would make tuning so much easier cause it’s just numbers then. You can easily logic through what every tweak will result in

Because of the number of choices, if blizzard tunes one number, it could affect multiple other talents choices that has other effects that were unforeseen

[vale pine]

you can have both

[wispy bolt]

See the BP buff, we had no clue what it would really mean until it went live cause of the number of nodes

[vale pine]

choice

and damage

can have the cake and eat it too

[wispy bolt]

What does choice matter when one is better

You just run the better one

[half galleon]

i dont undrestand why they are trying to make every spec and class easier for me personally spending time and mastering a rather harder thing is more fun than just pressing obliterate ( yes i hate DK's )

[sweet summit]

well we have a raid tree and an m+ tree

[wispy bolt]

m+ needs to be like pvp

Completely separate

It’s absurd that they have to juggle tuning and think about “what if this buff meant for Raid ST affects M+ aoe somehow”

Tuning wise that is. having different build is obviously gonna exist depending on target count

[vale pine]

thats the point

subtlety was always about choice

and it worked quite well i would even say

let me give you some examples

in mid legion the re-work is probably the best example for what i mean

[placid elk]

anyone got dracthir rogue sims? i think the mastery racial is not that bad

[vale pine]

its not that good

[tribal blade]

most class dps racials won't make or break your damage, it's the utility ones that really make a big difference

[vale pine]

It had a excessive amount of choice because:

• You could play Death from above BUT also Marked for Death (was later nerfed to make marked for death bad)
• You could play Dark Shadows or Enveloping Shadows (more dances vs. stronger dances)
• You could play Shadow focus vs Nightstalker (easier energy management vs stronger cooldowns)
• You could decide between different legendary items
  • MA + Hands -> highest burst
  • 2x Rings -> highest sustained output
  • Back -> Highest burst aoe
  • Neck/Pants -> High survivability

And even in gameplay:

• Spread rupture for best overall vs Only use it on your main target
• Could fine control your damage distribution by aligning cooldowns diffrent around DfA

so the strengh of subtlety was always by having choice / options

it was besides the swiftness

one of the big "oh, thats nice"

on the other hand, it is also why its seen as a difficult spec

you need to make the decisions yourself

assassination had only one play style

in contrast

so you had less of the decision making, some of it too but way reduced in comparison

and sub kinda had this still in DF

we got some new things

2x vanish charge -> now in the general tree

dust -> soon removed

there are still some small niches

but the spec/talents move more towards one option with little choice

Hero talents are now where the chocie is

Trickster adds Blade flurry

[red vortex]

we comparing goated Legion vs TWW?

[vale pine]

i read and heard

"tww is better than legion"

too many times to not make the comparison

[red vortex]

whoever said that

never played legion

[vale pine]

piratesoftware did say it feels like legion
any of the TWW appreciation threads highlights how its at minimum on par

what they did good is

almost all classes have at least one spec or hero talent thats great

[red vortex]

i mean tww so far is nice

but wouldnt say it is better than legion

[haughty mural]

i think thats why many of us (i think it is "many" ) think about this iteration as "best" or "one of the best"

[alpine wraith]

legion had super krangled raids and things

[red vortex]

also legion is an xpac that is finished