has anyone tested DS sub on m ovinax yet
#subtlety
tribal blade
tepid trellis
sullen hare
Not wrong
wispy bolt
that second dance does piss damage
sullen hare
It freed up a keybind for vanish inside of dance which is a different flavor of cursed 
jaunty heath
!log
steel horizon
you eviscerate when darkest night is up
flint umbra
im on trickster
flint umbra
wow is the ability that weak?
steel horizon
its weaker on trickster
sudden lark
that second dance does piss damage
wait what
rly?
bcuz that 2nd dance is supposed to fire with max flag stacks right
flint umbra
is this really how a 5 target damage profile looks?
tribal blade
im on trickster
trickster seems like excessive brainpower on aoe now
because you have to keep an eye on how many targets you have
flint umbra
because you have to keep an eye on how many targets you have
im using hekili
sudden lark
because you have to keep an eye on how many targets you have
oh look
having blade flurry as well as a full aoe spender is cancerous to play
sudden lark
who would've thought
flint umbra
lol
sudden lark
trickster is a super well-made tree but MAN
they should've given flurry a bit more power
but make it delete bp
flint umbra
for sub
tribal blade
well joke is it's supposed to be like 20% stronger
steel horizon
flawless form
sudden lark
yeah lol
tribal blade
but the buff for nimble never went through
flint umbra
and if youre on DS how do you aoe?
sudden lark
well joke is it's supposed to be like 20% stronger
im thinking even stronger than that lol
it should dwarf current ds
flint umbra
idk tbh i dont see where the damage comes from in general
sudden lark
the dmg comes from us having like
flint umbra
was testing assa and was doing 2x the aoe damage
sudden lark
5000000000000000000% dmg multiplier while in dance
or rather
while in flag
i suppose
becuz dance is worthless garbage nowadays
feelsbadman
flint umbra
not level 80 yet so obviously im not at peak form
flint umbra
i know
limpid lynx
Did you guys get to do some testing after reset to see what is better feeling and performance wise for m+ ?
steel horizon
flint umbra
was just comparing it to assa rn
sudden lark
Did you guys get to do some testing after reset to see what is better feeling an...
i suspect trickster will always FEEL better in m+
flint umbra
i have 7 level 80 alts, i kinda put rogue on the backburner idk why
sudden lark
but ds is stronger now
limpid lynx
I hate not playing dust , in general a hater of brew passive 0 brain build
flint umbra
probably cause the hero talents are a bit boring
what kinda overalls do you guys get for m+
id kinda like to see some raid boss dps too
sudden lark
I hate not playing dust , in general a hater of brew passive 0 brain build
lul i want to @ fuu right now for ur take
limpid lynx
but ds is stronger now
But the ds build is brew build with tea or without ?
sudden lark
But the ds build is brew build with tea or without ?
brew + tea
brew's apparently goated for ds
bcuz the plague dmg i guess
limpid lynx
lul i want to @ fuu right now for ur take
Man since shadowland i love the idea of ventyr flag go boom boom and then suck and 0 damage for a while , so the cd resets opens up new possibilities for pullin cds and fukin up boss for example
flint umbra
what kind of damage does hidden blade do
sudden lark
Man since shadowland i love the idea of ventyr flag go boom boom and then suck a...
nah
steel horizon
yeah but once you get transmitter, you kinda wanna stick to 1:30
limpid lynx
But we are soon loosing dust correct?
steel horizon
i try to avoid pulling blades early since i got transmitter
sudden lark
more importantly, i'll once again say I feel like tuning a burst spec to maintain a certain level of dps across a m+ run
flint umbra
anyone able to show some m+ overalls on details?
sudden lark
is infinitely harder than tuning a flatline spec
that's just "send on cd"
like current ret
flint umbra
idk where i can go to get an idea of how much damage sub is doing
limpid lynx
I finally got the delve blade trinket that is the best i could get my hands on so far
Ant hot takes regarding that trink ?
limpid lynx
You are a goat , did not know . Vault was shiet and no transmitter drop so far i took this delve one outta vault
steel horizon
anyone able to show some m+ overalls on details?
people are doing between 1 - 1.5m ish overall it seems
limpid lynx
I got it with avoidance , thats a win ?lmao
sudden lark
that's it im reporting u to the fbi, joe biden is gonna personally do an anal cavity search on yo ass tonight
this is fking
REEEEEE
limpid lynx
I feel your pain , so i should stop crying for not having transmitter ?
sudden lark
i swear i need to change my name back to "97 HoV runs without Hunger of the Pack" again
bcuz this season feels the exact fucking same
i legit get a 4 trinket vault this week and my only decisons were mythic spyglass vs arakara egg
so mid vs mid
limpid lynx
Uffff
That is rough
But good sir , i have lost touch with my rogue for quite a while
What do you think i should practice and bank on
Stalker or trick ?
flint umbra
Is transponder really that good? I hate that trinket so much
limpid lynx
I dont care doing shiet aoe , i love to be the priority boss killer machine more
Yea , transmitter got annoying mini game but checking logs you will see every single sub running it
sudden lark
Stalker or trick ?
hot take
you don't need to practice trick for the fights that play it
it's a SUPER intuitive build
legit just plays itself
everything clicks into place
ds is the one that u gotta program ur mind to play
steel horizon
trickster u gotta learn the triple dance though
jaunty heath
I feel like deathstalker plays itself?
limpid lynx
trickster u gotta learn the triple dance though
Not hard because i played a lot with dust before
sudden lark
on st yeah
sudden lark
I feel like deathstalker plays itself?
but in st both ds and trickster play well
and then u get to aoe
and ds is a fucking nightmare
jaunty heath
but in st both ds and trickster play well
They do I feel like in ST Trickster is more punishing at least
steel horizon
Not hard because i played a lot with dust before
make sure you can do 3 sec tecs within the flag window and you're good to go
sudden lark
They do I feel like in ST Trickster is more punishing at least
oh yeah
but that's just a matter of memorizing the very basic idea of using vanish right after u sectech
flint umbra
is our st damage the strongest aspect?
sudden lark
and getting ur 2nd sectech out in the 1st dance window
towards the end of it at least
jaunty heath
but that's just a matter of memorizing the very basic idea of using vanish right...
Well ye I don’t find the tripple tech itself hard
But like
Finding uptime
sudden lark
ehhhhhhhhhhh
jaunty heath
Or loosing uptime by a millisecond
It’s still a tight window for the third one in flag
hard ember
https://i.imgur.com/kQyGA6I.png what's scaling the flensing dmg?
also i fucked up my rupture, i've realized
steel horizon
it feels kinda shitty in aoe ngl
sudden lark
and like the whole advantage of bp spam i feel
steel horizon
either that or im just not used to it lol. im still doing less with ds than i do with trickster in keys. i guess im bad
sudden lark
is that you can run around without targeting any one thing in particular in bursts
hard ember
i'm gonna be real, compared to playing DS as sin, this owns
sudden lark
rly nice for m+
but if ur hard locked to 1 target
and u also have to evisc every 5 seconds
that goes out the window
hard ember
... i mean
limpid lynx
It was nice when we could cd and just spam shuri bp indeed 🤣
sudden lark
yup
limpid lynx
That is our job indeed
hard ember
want me to go pack by pack?
sudden lark
the caster that's gonna stun u or the high hp horseman?
limpid lynx
Atleast we good at it
sudden lark
which mob in mist b4 2nd boss?
hard ember
raider in any pull with one
sudden lark
which mob in dawnbreaker 2nd boss trashes?
hard ember
mob in mist is any pull with a fox
sudden lark
?????
limpid lynx
Stun problem solved
limpid lynx
They get cleved down tho
sudden lark
meanwhile guardians 2shot the tank
jaunty heath
Kidney him
limpid lynx
Or maybe 10 is too low
hard ember
key is too low for that to matter then
jaunty heath
He’s dead until that is done 
limpid lynx
But usually in those packs im afraid of the big anima slash tank buster ones
jaunty heath
7cp kidney we chilling 
sudden lark
But usually in those packs im afraid of the big anima slash tank buster ones
guardians
right
yeah basically i feel like
prio dmg
hard ember
surely it won't be dr'd and kill someone instantly on the cast
sudden lark
is a wayyyy bigger deal in raid
jaunty heath
surely it won't be dr'd and kill someone instantly on the cast
Surely
limpid lynx
is a wayyyy bigger deal in raid
So tomorrow i try raid with stalker u reccon ?
sudden lark
So tomorrow i try raid with stalker u reccon ?
up to u man
im not touching that shit with a 10 foot pole
it's a 20 years old game mode and it shows lmao
limpid lynx
I wanna impress new guild , and i just want big boss dam fuk aoe 🤣
hard ember
like it's a big deal for sin in raid, i fail to see how it's a big deal for sub like if the mark bugs out or goes into some phase or whatever like if you didn't finish the mark off on ansurek or something before she phased or something it's not nearly as punishing as like being only able to reapply with vanish ambush
sudden lark
like it's a big deal for sin in raid, i fail to see how it's a big deal for sub ...
yup
i swear deathstalker is supposed to be the sub hero spec
man
like the icon is literally a ninja guy with PURPLE daggers
hard ember
like if you lose a mark on sin for some reason early on, it really do be like "okay i guess i'll get it back the next time i send coolies"
sudden lark
and we reapply marks as easily as we itch our balls!
hard ember
and it's way more functional on sub
sudden lark
this was supposed to be our thing!
but then they built the entire shit for sin and now we get leukemia from trying to play it in aoe
hard ember
I don't think
sudden lark
im just sad man
hard ember
it was built with sin in mind at all
sudden lark
rly?
hard ember
getting to 7 combo points on sin is a fucking nightmare
sudden lark
oh true
hard ember
seal fate is so wasteful
sudden lark
when sin overcaps it's an actual overcap huh
hard ember
i'm still surprised they fixed ERE
ER* cps
but it wasn't working with them
yeah like i have a fun situation for you
you have 6 combo points and a full garrote on the target
how do you get to 7
hard ember
you hold both shiv charges for your cds
the answer is you muti, and lose 1-3 combo points
very cool
jaunty heath
I wanna impress new guild , and i just want big boss dam fuk aoe 🤣
Depends on the fight really
sudden lark
yea sack CDs to play the cp minigame bro, totally worth
jaunty heath
Both hero talents have their use
hard ember
definitely doesn't go against how the spec feels like it should play at its core
sudden lark
it's almost like forcing rogues to cap cp is a fucking asinine idea
and only someone who's never played the class at max level, let alone actual competitive content
can come up with such an inbred dogshit concept
hard ember
... well you'd still never send it under 5
hard ember
the lions share of the damage from this hero talent i'd say is from the huge hit on evis/env
(which is why it's crazy that shadowed finishers is bugged with it but anyway)
jaunty heath
It feels ass to get there but
sudden lark
i feel like they should just like
hard ember
that's also not how that works
but if they were to do that, i think they would need you to pop it way more than 3 times
but that also presents problems
such as
it's a bit weird to go from 0 to as few as possible
sudden lark
idek man, i just feel like the way ds interacts with cp is just super unsatisfying
like the base mark not scaling at all
super lame
and then 7 cp for dn
even worse
hard ember
i think if it worked with all the passives you would expect it to, then it would be very good on sub
still a little bit fried on sin
hard ember
but most of the annoyance is that rogue is at its core, generally reliant on buff acquisition from various sources to do damage
sudden lark
so many things wrong with ds
hard ember
i'm not going to lie, when i saw fatal intent, i expected dribbling inkpod. and I guess we got inkpod on ilevel if you got it out of EP right now or something
personally, i wish most of the power of the tree was in singular focus
but I understand that is the last thing that they want
sudden lark
oh that could be cool
hard ember
sudden lark
like funneling with aoe vs cleaving with st
hard ember
I didn't like when they added black powder
sudden lark
a yin yang of the hero talents
hard ember
even after the zul nerfs/removal of shuriken combo, every single season, I would int the homies in tournament realm, because i swore the funnel would be decent in mdi keys anyway
shrewd lantern
ig you can argue
hard ember
and then after like a few hours of practice it would be like
sudden lark
short radish
yeah okay i'm doing no damage to anything, including funnel target
i still remember back in like s3 of SL where destro lock just doing mongo bongo RoF out dpsing me doing full funnel on sub rogue
on the same target
that was a fun experience
shrewd lantern
ngl
if your tank was a bdk
and he had gavel up
he would beat you on that phase
probs
shrewd lantern
yeah i mean funnel after zul
was just some weird streamer lingo
that every rando clung onto
hard ember
yeah that's what happens when you remove a whole passive without compensation
i mean like
sudden lark
yeah that's what happens when you remove a whole passive without compensation
yeah the sort of shit blizz has gotten away with over the years
sudden lark
crazy how tolerant ppl in the west are
hard ember
sudden lark
if this was an asian company they'd be done like kyoto animation lol
if yall are familiar with that
nimble burrow
i afraid
shrewd lantern
the warrior was 2.7
hard ember
pugs don't know the correct mobs to focus so they never kill your KB target 🙂
willow fulcrum
Man reading the rules for when to use SecTec within Flag as Trickster, with or without enough stacks of Unseen Blade...my brain hurts and I've not even tried it out yet
shrewd lantern
so my orb was just floating in the air
hard ember
collect the orb if you dare
i was just talking to one of the homies and he said he lemming leaped off the side while doing one of the ara kara minibosses to get it and realized he did it then shadowstepped back onto it
when he realized he'd literally jumped off
@weary saffron
hard ember
lowkey one of the most unexpected encounter changes this expac is shadowstep not killing you on cd despite the abundance of ledges
like i thought it would be completely banned on nexus princess, on ansurek etc etc
shrewd lantern
ngl
i watched someone die on sikran
because stepped boss
as charged to a ledge
hard ember
alright that is actually a problem between the computer and the chair
sudden lark
Man reading the rules for when to use SecTec within Flag as Trickster, with or ...
wait why lol
it's literally just
shrewd lantern
pretty sure i did it once on rasz
sudden lark
use it to apply a debuff if the debuff aint up
hard ember
on razageth there was a just frame that you could vanish shadowstrike
where you would get sent the other way
hard ember
yep, find a trustworthy person and focus step them
willow fulcrum
use it to apply a debuff if the debuff aint up
Maybe it is a lot simpler once I try it out. Am reading up on sub and it just seem a lot of "if this then this, otherwise this"
hard ember
when i raided, our best player also happened to be our dk, very pleasant
shrewd lantern
oh i mean
hard ember
for winds yeah
shrewd lantern
our dk was my spark partner
hard ember
i know
shrewd lantern
so it was chill
hard ember
ah
hard ember
luckily you have 2 charges of it
pliant topaz
GB 12 is a great and fun and balanced key. my shaman friend getting 100-0'd by the dragon aoe
shrewd lantern
not as bad as my friends guldan clip
hard ember
unfortunately your sense of distance is completely fucked cuz that was the first tier after playing quick decisions conduit for a whole expac
shrewd lantern
where he felrushed off the platform
sudden lark
Maybe it is a lot simpler once I try it out. Am reading up on sub and it just se...
yeah lol it's literally just one debuff
shrewd lantern
and had to dash vr back on
sudden lark
idk why ppl are so obsessed with it as some beacon of mechanical skill
shrewd lantern
ngl quick decisions was one of the most cracked util conduits
hard ember
not line of sighting is so banned
hard ember
it scaled with ilevel so by sepulchre step was a gorillion miles
clever wolf
If you have Dark Brew active "Your attacks that deal nature or bleed damage now deal shadow damage instead" Does this cause the effect of Seal of Posioned Pact "Dealing Nature Damage has a chance to grant an additional dose" to not occur?
hard ember
^i was wondering that yesterday
short radish
idk why ppl are so obsessed with it as some beacon of mechanical skill
yeah sub has this perception of being complicated, but you can break it down into simple If X then Y else Z
hard ember
that sounds like something that would happen
sudden lark
yeah sub has this perception of being complicated, but you can break it down int...
not even that
just remember to use coup to kick the target when it's down
and ur set
hard ember
if you have a ring would appreciate it if you tested
sudden lark
literal street fight logic lmao
mental comet
Pretty sure it turns it to shadow yes
shrewd lantern
ngl i wonder how do warriors have that ring as bis
hard ember
that would be very good if you weren't locked on any presses of anything in coup
mental comet
Big crit
shrewd lantern
nah fury is haste mast
hard ember
don't think they have an easy nature source
hard ember
like hunters get auto serpent sting, chaos dmg counts as nature for dh/destro, etc
shrewd lantern
arakara sac
hard ember
that sounds completely fake
shrewd lantern
nah its on their guide as bis
sudden lark
man
the thing that gets me wondering tho
is how apl for trickster changes
do they still do sectech first in dance after they lose dust lol
hard ember
if i had a nickel for every time people tried to get gear by literally spreading propaganda in class guides, i would have about an extra wow token every tier
sudden lark
like they can't triple sectech anymore right
dry zodiac
It doesn’t require nature damage. It just procs more with it.
hard ember
well yeah, but loot is done with number increase to raid dps right
dry zodiac
Right but it can still be their BiS even without nature damage. Just maybe not as good as for a rogue etc
hard ember
i think it's just a bit weird when like something might sim in variance and people just send it when it's not stats someone wants etc
but i understand
after all, sandbagging sims/lying on cd/doomposting loudly almost always just works out for specs/classes that do it
hard ember
tbh it's also not malicious in a lot of cases
like rogue sims are hilariously accurate compared to pretty mcuh every other class
it's the most deftly written/competently maintained by far
to this day prio=1 works
short radish
this is why we should sandbag sims
short radish
take a page out of the warlock playbook
hard ember
🙂
https://i.imgur.com/kIqclJK.png let's play a game. how about "remove one word on this tooltip to make this not bafflingly awful"
shrewd lantern
next
hard ember
what were they thinking
shrewd lantern
they werent
same with how they disabled essences in timewalking this expac
but left azerite
hard ember
at least i wasn't able to when i tried to level my hunter earlier
hard ember
sadly multishot only resets turtle now on hunter
shrewd lantern
tbh wild to me they liked the antorus tier bonus for dh so much they kept it as a perma power/talent
hard ember
aspect of the wild and call of the wild are different spell ids
i mean furious gaze is on your tree right now
it's just 10% though
hard ember
revolving blades as well
shrewd lantern
i was reaching like over 150% haste in tw
hard ember
though you don't get the lowered blade dance cost
shrewd lantern
with 2x overwhelming power
hard ember
i farmed a tw set with so much random stuff and they broke almost all of it
shrewd lantern
rogue ones are alot weaker
hard ember
||greenskins legion leggo was a % increase that multiplied against deadshot traits||
the stuff that's weak are proc chance things
because the lower level actually scales down the procs
hard ember
that might have been the first one they did in slands or osmething
cuz they did another pass where they disabled a lot of old tier sets
dusky tundra
Whats the new specs for sub?
shrewd lantern
wdym "new"
dusky tundra
DS over Trickster in all content? BP on 2+ targets?
vale pine
yes, priority_rotation=1 still works
wispy bolt
holy no one is applying to keys
lament brook
for the stat priority it says mastery over vers but the chart below it shows vers over mastery
is that just because mastery gains value in aoe?
pliant topaz
for the stat priority it says mastery over vers but the chart below it shows ver...
a lot of deathstalkers damage is just the random plague stuff. vers is good for that. mastery isnt. also that graph partially just shows the profile used not neccessarily best profile. Mastery gets a lot better in aoe / trickster setups
vale pine
for the stat priority it says mastery over vers but the chart below it shows ver...
oh, both are on par but you would ideally have slightly more vers
but good point, i should put vers over mastery
lament brook
fasho just curious how behind I'll be if im way vers slanted cuz im coming from playing outlaw
sounds like it should be totally fine
vale pine
the graph is based on bis gear
its essentially how much of a stat relative to the best
pliant topaz
fuu gimme hope tell me tmrw we get a patch note and itll be okay
wind canopy
fuu gimme hope tell me tmrw we get a patch note and itll be okay
It’s coming tomorrow. Surely
vale pine
fuu gimme hope tell me tmrw we get a patch note and itll be okay
tomorrow we get patchnotes for a supercharger simc implementation, and it will be okay
wispy bolt
whats up with all the 99 parses brood heroic that are 8 minutes long... some cheese?
vale pine
add padding
lucid atlas
sim says back i say shoulders welp
pliant topaz
It’s coming tomorrow. Surely
okay but surely a ptr patchnote right?
wispy bolt
8 min fight is way longer than it should be
bruh 14 people doing damage
others getting carried
= crazy parses
shammy at 2mil dps OMEGA
tribal blade
fuu gimme hope tell me tmrw we get a patch note and itll be okay
blizz is gonna turn it around and give us tons of attention
it's coming
sorry couldn't say that with a straight face
tribal blade
others getting carried
it's 100% a sale
see how quickly they died into the pull
whenever you do raid sales you tell the carries to go die immediately on hard bosses
so they don't get mechanics and fuck it up
tribal blade
so that would be a good way to get a parse on that boss
you get to giga pad because half the raid is dead
tribal blade
sin is pretty chill to run on that boss
tribal blade
oh yeah for sure
tribal blade
this is from 27 wipes on mythic ovinax my guild did tonight
tribal blade
me parsing the best after playign sin for 1 week
tribal blade
i honestly have no idea
he probably went mongo aoe build
because my RL wants all add damage right now for prog
and then get more boss dam later
i COULD go more add damage right now, but i really don't want to
because playing just spatter+CT for aoe is very little thinking
and then i don't have to readjust when we shift damage around
lament brook
is there a reason why it says to use Sec Tec as 2nd finisher in dance but the image for the opener rotation on ST has it used first after dance?
is that just an opener specific thing?
lament brook
or should the opener also be using sec tec after an evisc
tribal blade
or should the opener also be using sec tec after an evisc
you use sectec as 2nd finisher for deathstalker
wind canopy
is there a reason why it says to use Sec Tec as 2nd finisher in dance but the im...
Are you looking at trickster?
tribal blade
OR if you're running trickster and have coup up and fazed on your target
lament brook
Are you looking at trickster?
theres isnt a hero talent specifier for the image
tribal blade
sectec as 1st finisher is for trickster when you do not have coup up, or if coup is up but fazed is not on your target
(i know this is a lot to process)
lament brook
kk I just assumed the image would be for deathstalker as its the main ST build
since it doesnt say
tribal blade
Thats troll
yeah i'm not gonna do it
lament brook
I'll follow the text guide
tribal blade
kk I just assumed the image would be for deathstalker as its the main ST build
if you play DS sectec is always 2nd finisher
wind canopy
theres isnt a hero talent specifier for the image
Huh. Weird. Anyway, it’s what prophet said
tribal blade
the hero talents for rogues are weird because they had much less dev time than the other classes
and also they were basically having to reiterate on DS because it was not only designed late, but the first version was unplayable
trickster also had some major reworking on it's 1st version
keen dome
Yeah..
lament brook
on the 2nd dance in an opener do yall not have CB coming up in time or do you hold your sec tech long enough into the dance to get the CB with it?
shrewd lantern
@tribal blade i just realized i had a gb few weeks ago with one of your shams
since his guild rank was prophet sucks
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> i just realized i had a gb few weeks ago with one of your ...
hahaaaaa
was his name mowthelawn
no wait
couldn't be him
shrewd lantern
dont recall was healing
tribal blade
yeah wasn't the ele i run with
it was probably boodywaves
or acorns
yeah my GM made that guild rank for the casuals in our guild
shrewd lantern
tribal blade
because i have an incredible gift
as one of my guildies put it
"to wipe the raid at the worst possible moment when everyone's mental is gone"
tribal blade
it's the worst gift ever
because i tend to mess up less on most bosses than 75% of our raiders
but do my mess ups so spectacularly it's stuff of legend
keen dome
Hell yeah
wispy bolt
CoT is def better with trickster
holy that was ass
lmao
too many 3-4 packs
especially on those adds u hunt down at the start
prisma stump
the build thats been posted in the pins, would you recocmmend that for cleave fights in mythic raid? or just mythic + currently
or are we still using trickster in raid for cleave?
it says somthign he would reocmmend for aoe?
tribal blade
it says somthign he would reocmmend for aoe?
you would probably just run the standard DS build
prisma stump
BP is pulling haead that mucch?
tribal blade
BP is a button we have for free, and it's already the majority of our aoe dam
running the standard raid build would allow you to keep the ST dam
maybe swap out like swift death for nado if you want
prisma stump
Im progging second boss of mythicc tonight so just trying to prepare the appripriate build
tribal blade
i'm not really sure though, i haven't looked up what build people are using in raid for cleave fights atm
tribal blade
Im progging second boss of mythicc tonight so just trying to prepare the appripr...
trickster is good on that boss too
prisma stump
where is fuu where i need him ><
tribal blade
there are 2 top logs from yesterday killing that boss
1 is deathstalker, the other is trickster
and they are within 5k dps of each other
prisma stump
OO GOOD CALL
tribal blade
so literally just run whichever one you feel more comfortable with
wicked urchin
Trickster prolly better because if you’re only 1/8 adds will last longer
soft summit
sectec as 1st finisher is for trickster when you do not have coup up, or if coup...
;iterally my brain cant process it
tribal blade
;iterally my brain cant process it
yeah it's a little confusing
wicked urchin
tbh you’re also fine just sending it if you’re not at a level where minmaxing matters a lot
tribal blade
- sectec 1st finisher in dance (default)
- IF coup is active and fazed is on your target > sectec 2nd finisher after coup
- IF coup is active and fazed is NOT on your target > sectec 1st finisher (to apply fazed before coup)
the reasoning for all this fuckery is because if you coup while fazed is on your target you get 15% more finisher damage
which is a lot
vale pine
!up
wicked joltBOT
brave escarp
on the 2nd dance in an opener do yall not have CB coming up in time or do you ho...
Sectech is second finisher as deathstalker, because of the last talent in sub tree - danse macabre (or however it's spelled) it gives you stacks, based of abilities used in dance. More stacks = more damage. When we use sectech as second finisher, that pretty much guarantees there will be 3-4 stacks consumed. As trickster you want to use it first, because that way you can more easily recover it for second and third use in the 3 dance window back to back and because (i think) eviscerate with coup de grace hits harder and danse macabre are better spent there. Also coup de grace needs to be built up, that easy with sectech
2-3 more talents and i may begin french or italian lessons, just to be able to talk about sub talents
flint umbra
This is why I use hekili
flint umbra
I play wayyyy too many classes to not use it
cloud rover
cloud rover
I play a lot of classes too and just wing it on most 
flint umbra
So I mean I’m fine with it
flint umbra
I play a lot of classes too and just wing it on most <:pepe_chad:102291898673792...
Lol
sweet summit
!wa
wicked joltBOT
sly shore
I prefer to struggle and be bad and learn
than press what appears on rotation helper
so therefore, I am forever bad
cloud rover
so therefore, I am forever bad
Is this an Guy alt?
cloud rover
Be bad on your own > be mid with a Helper
sly shore
RegularDude
sweet summit
when do i vanish ? i dont use shadowdust cuz its going away
cloud rover
Outside of Dust, Vanish is mostly untility right?
and maybe an Deathstalker Mark Applier?
sweet summit
based i wasnt focused on vanish tht much because i didnt take shadowdust good 2 know im not missing much
keen dome
Be bad on your own > be mid with a Helper
My badness is hand-crafted and artisnal. None of that factory badness.
sly shore
That was actually a good one Zac
sly shore
leaden prairie
cant wait
wispy bolt
mfw 2500 is #76 in the world
i should be able to easily get to ~2650 this weekend holy
not a single 12 timed by a sub is crazy
ah thers like 3
sly shore
12's are hard
plush roost
not a single 12 timed by a sub is crazy
casualaddict had a timed 13 arakara as sub
tawdry belfry
!stats
wicked joltBOT
The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste
cloud rover
casualaddict had a timed 13 arakara as sub
Did he play the whole dungeon as sub
or did he switch midway 
hard wren
is sub competitive with assa in m+ now?
tribal blade
is sub competitive with assa in m+ now?
probably not
vestal escarp
Nuh uh
tribal blade
Did he play the whole dungeon as sub
one thing's for sure, he's using sub in the dungeons where they need big ST dam to push hard bosses that intermission
cloud rover
ye 0,5% buff in AOE
sly shore
But assa is that far ahead
sly shore
0.5% also includes the ST in the key
tribal blade
they basically readjusted sin's dmg profile
sly shore
cloud rover
Is it?
sly shore
but sub did not get like 20% better cos of the bp buff
vestal escarp
he simmed dslice weirdge
sly shore
Same thing 
tribal blade
so what we need is another 35% BP buff
vestal escarp
so what we need is another 35% BP buff
So st dance becomes evis sectec powder lets goo
keen dome
so what we need is another 35% BP buff
350% please.
tribal blade
i don't give a shit anymore about them actually giving us good attention, please just buff the shit out of us so we're viable
sly shore
I'd also play sub at the start of arakara
toxic part for assa
you just do zdps as assa
vestal escarp
I send kb on spiders
sly shore
at least sub can set up ruptures running
tribal blade
yeah i dunno how to do the first pull as sin
sly shore
and then burst when you reach the end
vestal escarp
I close the frost anyway afterwards
tribal blade
you also want to push down the bosses quick in ara kara
it's an easy dungeon, but. those bosses are no joke
cloud rover
it's an easy dungeon, but. those bosses are no joke
Last boss Yesterday
We had only 1 dispells
and the debuff came while suck in
tribal blade
We had only 1 dispells
yikes
cloud rover
guess what happened
vestal escarp
just stay in stealth till tank stops
"Rog first kick yellow pls" literally the first caster spider in the route
Sure buddy here i go watch me do it
Yeppers
tribal blade
yeah you literally are stuck in stealth
can't do shit
unless you open up, do stuff, then vanish once you get to the miniboss
vestal escarp
I bring iron wire to the table ask another guy
cloud rover
im honest
vestal escarp
Meta is 5 kicks comp
tribal blade
and just run along rupturing everything
cloud rover
i wish Indiscrimate carnage wasnt tied to stealth or vanish
cloud rover
Generally i wish rogue was so reliant on Stelath and the "stealth" phases after that
tribal blade
it's the biggest reason why i don't want to play sin in M+
cloud rover
It makes it really annoying
tribal blade
it would be a huge QoL to just make IC a button that has a cd
god knows sin has 0 keybinds already
vestal escarp
Bro sin moved away from thay
haughty mural
it was
cloud rover
it would be a huge QoL to just make IC a button that has a cd
Some for outlaw
haughty mural
a button
cloud rover
same*
tribal blade
it was a button, but not the same thing
cloud rover
isntaed of vanish, gimme a button that triggers crackshot
plush roost
Played sin in raid today, was weird not pressing 6 buttons in my opener and just macroing skardyns pot to deathmark
keen dome
It's funny how Sub is the least reliant on stealth out of the three specs yet the one most built, thematically, around it
cloud rover
Ye
plush roost
Like the payphone meme freal
tribal blade
they need to remove power from stealth for all 3 specs
cloud rover
Ye
vestal escarp
Sub has dance, which is the better version
cloud rover
I want to use vanish as utility
tribal blade
like what they're doing removing power from vanish with sub, i'm all for
tribal blade
I want to use vanish as utility
EXACTLY
i dunno what the point of having this really unique spell to drop combat is
if it's tied to power
vestal escarp
they need to remove power from stealth for all 3 specs
I'd say the opposite honestly, put more power into it since it's a more hard setup
tribal blade
and you can't use it for cool stuff
keen dome
Yeah
plush roost
I unironically liked having Shadow dance on all 3 specs ngl
haughty mural
team told me to vanish this and that the other night doing keys
tribal blade
i'm a big believer in no power tied to vanish
cloud rover
I mean
vestal escarp
Like imagine you could use Vanish on first boss in GB
For rocks?
keen dome
no DPS power, anyway. 'Cos vanish has a lot of utility power.
cloud rover
For rocks?
Yes
plush roost
I know its subs thing, but eh, having stealth abilities on all classes was nice
tribal blade
during S3 when we swapped from dust to DB for keys my survivability went up a LOT
i loved it
vestal escarp
Yeah vanish is huge as a defensive
keen dome
The best of every world.
You can use vanish as a CD to get stuff but it was only 15s so if you needed t use it as autility it wasn't a big deal.
vestal escarp
Probably underpowered given the cd
cloud rover
I mean im happy
I can use Vanish for removed snare on ovinax
Because Raid vanish has like zero power
as sin
plush roost
Well, its empowered garrote
cloud rover
Not in raid spec
plush roost
Unless you're playing VV
haughty mural
Because Raid vanish has like zero power
if you play vv sure
plush roost
On broodtwister?
keen dome
big bleeds
plush roost
Ye so you still lose out vanishing the snares
vestal escarp
If you have transmitter IG and suffocation are stronger
cloud rover
No
plush roost
Since they don't line with deathmark?
plush roost
Wow really? You're wildin
cloud rover
The two points of VV i play Crimson tempest and the Fok talent befor
vestal escarp
It's good
plush roost
Wait no, I'm actually just lagging LOL
I dont use shrouded or imp garrote either LOL
haughty mural
plush roost
Me yappin nonsense lets go
cloud rover
I dont use shrouded or imp garrote either LOL
This is the ovinax you play
haughty mural
keen dome
At least Sub still has it's most important niche in raid content: 0.2s more uptime on the boss on pull due to speed shroud.
keen dome
And also helping the raid run back quicker I guess
cloud rover
without dps loss
vale pine
I want to use vanish as utility
we need 2 vanish charges back
cloud rover
Ye
light imp
i really just can't get the hang of DS in M+ lol. it seems like its supposed to play how sub used to be in M+, spread rupture and bp spam for the most part, but damn i just dont feel like its worth it on pulls under like, 5 lol
native zodiac
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
light imp
over nimble?
vestal escarp
Over evis
tribal blade
we need 2 vanish charges back
do you like how they gave back each rogue spec stuff from the class tree into the spec tree because of identity, and then when they gave back dance to us they replaced it with SOMETHING ELSE they stole from sub
cool move
light imp
well for DS, im talking relative to Evis with trickster. on high pull counts where you can really just alternate shuriken and BP it def does way more damage than Trickster, but a lot of pulls i feel have lower enemy counts where a 3-4 count BP would do less damage than a 3-4 count Evis with Nimble flurry
tribal blade
over nimble?
BP w/o momentum already does more dam than evis on 2t now if i'm not mistaken
light imp
but according to fuus pin DS is better at 3+ targets so im just restarted i guess
wispy bolt
but according to fuus pin DS is better at 3+ targets so im just restarted i gues...
I’m with you, in keys BP on 3-4 feels really weak
light imp
BP w/o momentum already does more dam than evis on 2t now if i'm not mistaken
i can see that, even just with the tooltip, but how does that compare to nimble, since nimble also cleaves AA and Shadowstrike, unless even on 3 or 4 targets you're hitting Shuriken 2-3 times to get CP
light imp
I’m with you, in keys BP on 3-4 feels really weak
yeah, like with trickster i can confidently pop CDs and funnel damage into prio, or just the highest health mob and get some decent cleave damage, with BP its like my brain turns off cause it almost doesn't feel worth it thus losing CD usage through the key. so then i pop CDs anyways and it just doesnt hit the same, lol
i did a GB earlier where most pulls are lower targets and it was awful, just got out of a siege and there were some really nice Large count pulls where i could use Tornado and BP spam again. but ultimately did less damage overall than normal
also is it bad that a 613 sikrans sims higher than a 619 deadeye but i still wanna use the deadeye over sikrans cause i hate this stupid trinket
tribal blade
i can see that, even just with the tooltip, but how does that compare to nimble,...
i think the cleave is more efficient on lower target like that for sure
as trickster
and you get the added benefit of prio
light imp
i think the cleave is more efficient on lower target like that for sure
yeah, but even when i sim myself on raidbots with 3-4 targets my DS M+ build sims higher, i wanna know wtf raidbots is doing that i'm not, lol
tribal blade
BP getting buffed by 35% makes it pretty strong now
it doesn't surprise me because i checked out the average biggest hit of BP playing DS on the target dummies yesterday
and it's now higher than the average biggest hit of nimble
light imp
am i just overthinking things and just play normally just replace Evis with BP 3+ targets?
safe kite
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
light imp
even on raidbots i sim patchwerk at 4 targets and DS M+ Is leaps higher than Trickster. at 3 targets they're about equal with trickster slightly ahead
vestal escarp
and it's now higher than the average biggest hit of nimble
Bp is baseline 55% of evis now
vestal escarp
am i just overthinking things and just play normally just replace Evis with BP 3...
As trickster?
light imp
As trickster?
DS, i have no problems with trickster. my problem is i feel like my brain turns off with DS and i forget how my cooldowns work and how to play, but it seems liike im overthinking things and i should just treat BP as DS like i treat evis on trickster
charred sandal
The trickster brain wash
light imp
its fuckin real
vestal escarp
As DS bp at 2 unless one target needs focus
light imp
cause DS is how sub used to be played in M+ back in Slands
charred sandal
DS is literally playing like we are back at DF season
light imp
i can feel the wrinkles in my brain being ironed out by trickster
charred sandal
I also struggled to transition after playing trickster for a bit cuz my brain was thinking about flurry playing DS lmao
west lake
Is sub competitve in m+ right now?
haughty mural
cause DS is how sub used to be played in M+ back in Slands
Don’t forget to proc DN
vale pine
DS is literally playing like we are back at DF season
with more evis
vale pine
Is sub competitve in m+ right now?
its not beating assassiantion
charred sandal
with more evis
And the storm single target
tribal blade
DS, i have no problems with trickster. my problem is i feel like my brain turns ...
it's not just you, this is the issue blizz created by having 2 hero talent trees that not just change our aoe rotation a little bit
they're COMPLETELY different
it's rough trying to readjust between the 2
shy sparrow
so during dance as DS, how many targets to no longer use strike and swap to storm instead?
tribal blade
so during dance as DS, how many targets to no longer use strike and swap to stor...
going off old rules should be 4+ you start using storm in dance
but i'm not sure if momentum of despair changes anything
shy sparrow
yea that's about what my feelycrafting would tell me as well
tribal blade
For silemt storm
oh good point
you mostly just want the buff up and it'll cover the entire of dance
and silent storm does that
shy sparrow
i'm taking mental notes here
i will clear 10s with sub
soon™️
gritty knot
So I stopped my little experiment with the black powder buff and even after doing 11s intime as sub I will just go with assa...fk that. I am doing like 500 k DPS more overall even tho my versatility is shit, but its worth it
HC raid was the same. Only 98%, 99% parses with a shit pug group and I was literally in every bossfight top 1 or 2 DPS. Only for silken court I ve switched to sub and blasted the Shit Out of that boss
cloud rover
Sub not Goodge rn
vale pine
subtlety is in a weird spot
alpine wraith
not first time or last time
vale pine
and with 11.0.5 changes migth see pvpers also move to others
but on the other hand, by highlighting the flaws and state
we basically give less people reason to engage with the spec
idk how to solve that tho
you can do a +10 on subtlety
you can claer mythic
vale pine
so it isn't unplayable
but you can just stick to sin
and have a significantly easier time
alpine wraith
i can also route a new node with 2 keys on my keyboard instead of the whole thing
vale pine
and will deal more damage
gritty knot
You can do 11s ye. I did two 11s in time as sub but I am sick of ppl calling me a bot or getting myself boosted or they just insult me otherwise. I don't want to explain every day multiple times that I give my best and push to the limits, playing everything perfectly fine but the spec is just shit. Also it's so disappointing to press all that keys and u get nothing for that.
*Press all that buttons
vale pine
i talked about this with a friend today
i think the new key system has some interessting phenomenas to observe
basically what it creates is certain "pools" of players
vale pine
e.g. if you raid normal/heroic, you initially stuck around 7s
8s are doable, but tough
tho there isn't rly any point doing them
and with how crest and gear is designed
you have no option to realy grow
gritty knot
@vale pine ye exactly. I think that's a big issue tbh...
vale pine
e.g. towards gear, there is this
it is why people feel weird
you have normal gear go up to heroic level
and both normal and heroic gear cap out at 8/8 normal and 4/6 heroic
alpine wraith
yea i have a ring that is champion 8/8 and no reason to replace it with a hero one
until i have more crests
gritty knot
I mean u could just do delves all day, hoping for maps, then get 2 mythic track crests as a reward. In 5 years u will have BIS Gear