subtlety

[elfin pilot]

does anyone have a WA text indicating when we're not in stealth?

i'm trying to find something like that

[barren plume]

Or do you just mean the dust CD

[half comet]

are the sims updated for sin fuu?

[barren plume]

You have a character that shows if you’re stealthed…

[half comet]

for st

[vale pine]

ill talked about it earlier, in raid but can re-post it after

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

but basically, the cos/evasion uses from the cdr

and like 2/3 of the healing of soothing

and the healing effects of 2nd vanish charge

[barren plume]

Oh perfect so we are squishier and still don’t do good dps

[pliant topaz]

atleast we get cloaked in shadows back which is nice

[barren plume]

What a trade off for us

[vestal fog]

Dw i like to be negative aswell ❤️

[honest saddle]

Make an icon WA that triggers on aura player stealth

[vale pine]

would be the math behind soothing

[vestal escarp]

[uneven scarab]

Well thats kinda alot

[vestal escarp]

new sin ST breakdown

[uneven scarab]

[alpine wraith]

dont worry we dont run soothing anymore

now we run SLICE AND DICE HEAL

[uneven scarab]

i like soothing tho

[alpine wraith]

just dont vanish and it does not bug

[uneven scarab]

yeah U MEAN THAT TALENT THAT NEVER WORKS

[alpine wraith]

big heal

[uneven scarab]

[vale pine]

we can just not skill it

[elfin pilot]

I have no idea how

But i will try

[vale pine]

so its not too bad

[pliant topaz]

I dont mind this for sub actually

because we are actually losing offensive purposes of vanish

so its purely a utility/defensive tool

[vale pine]

i find healing to be quite tough in solo content

[graceful crown]

fuu do you consider still playing trickster for fun in like 9s and 10s trolling

[uneven scarab]

Yeah that’s valid

[graceful crown]

im curious

[vale pine]

10 is fine

[pliant topaz]

thats fair, i was thinking more so for raid/ m+

[vale pine]

12 you might not want to

[pliant topaz]

where the planned 30% heal

or the 18% shield

are very impactful

[vale pine]

i mean its also like

we don't have the 2nd vanish charge in our sub tree

and cloaked in darkness got nerfed

[graceful crown]

my issue is i first timed assassin just to see how it'll do with al lthe wrong stats and enchants and what not, and im already just outperforming the DS BP spam shit

it's very discouraging

in general

[vale pine]

so freeing vanish up is still very weak defensive wise

[pliant topaz]

yeah thats a pretty big yikes for sure, but still, 1 vanish is better than nothing

which was the dust era

[pastel rampart]

i hate the soothing change because i like to eat dmg like an american at a buffet and having the heal proc on every dance was great

[vale pine]

s3/4

you played brew in m+

so had 2 charges vanish with stronger shield

ANd

good soothing

just saying

[pliant topaz]

yeah im just comparing 11.0.5 to right now

[vale pine]

it depends what we reference to

[pliant topaz]

i put usb benig the only spec in the entire game to basically lose a defensve and utility in my "we would rather if you didnt play sub" post

maybe i should make a part 2

for 11.0.5 changes

[vale pine]

haha

[short rock]

doing better on pretty much every fight now switched from sub to ass lol trickster rip

[fallow nimbus]

What happens to soothing?

[thick cedar]

What are peoples thoughts on the Ritual Knife?

[hazy breach]

Its good

[jaunty umbra]

I let the bot do the thinking

[vestal escarp]

hc knife is very good

[topaz raptor]

Knife is extremely good yeah

Doesn’t show in bis lists much because it can’t be acquired at 639

[thick cedar]

highest is 626?

[topaz raptor]

Yeah hero track to 626, idk if id slam gilded on a hero item though

[vale pine]

no more dance

comparison

probably should make it a bit more fair

and say

6 vs 2

so 80% vs 60%

tho thats also not correct

would overvalue new

[cloud rover]

If you can get myth track items

Idk

Like raiding mythic

[cloud rover]

Otherwise dont hold

[flint umbra]

thought it was an hour

[pastel rampart]

only w talent

[flint umbra]

when i use it it lasts for 25 seconds

[honest saddle]

once you attack, it goes on an hour I think

[flint umbra]

ah i see

[uneven scarab]

Sometimes it bugs out and shows u the normal 20 seconds and then goes to an hour

[flint umbra]

weird

[uneven scarab]

or its like an attack requirement yeah

something like that

[fallow nimbus]

Yikes

It should be stealth and vanish

[trim ridge]

BUT PVP

kek

[shy sparrow]

speaking of that talent, did you guys ever do NW final boss with that, when you get exiled it still tries to transfer aggro and the add bugs out and starts evading

(the 1h tricks thing)

[uneven scarab]

Yes

Ive had it literally teleport the mob up to the main platform

[shy sparrow]

it's so obnoxious

i'd rather just use blind as a defensive cd

[flint umbra]

does sub have the most abilities in the game?

theres just so many cds

[trim ridge]

druids probably have more

[shy sparrow]

unlikely when druid with multitude of forms exists

[trim ridge]

but probably second

[charred sandal]

a lot of em u are just macroing together

[flint umbra]

true

[ornate current]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[flint umbra]

anything i can macro here? cold blood is in sec tec and tea is in dance

can i put symbols into something

[charred sandal]

Dance, tea, symbols, onuse trinket can be macro

[flint umbra]

ok ty

[charred sandal]

then coldblood on sec tech

[flint umbra]

got that one down

[charred sandal]

with that u are pretty much left with blades/flag that u want to put em together but not macro em

[flint umbra]

wdym

put together but not macro

[charred sandal]

shitty phrasing ngl my b

[shy sparrow]

my blade macro just does
blades
symbols
dance
trinket
tea

[flint umbra]

you put all that on blades?

wouldnt you want to cats those abilities seperately tho too?

[uneven scarab]

i have a dps macro for opener that uses blades+sod together

[shy sparrow]

i still have symbols and dance in a separate macro

[flint umbra]

ah i see

[charred sandal]

u usually use flag when blade is also up (big burst window) but u dont necesarily press em at the same time

example

[uneven scarab]

You want to flag->finisher->blades+sod->dance

[charred sandal]

that

[shy sparrow]

yea, all the stuff that's in the offgcd bit in that opener is 1 macro on my bars

[uneven scarab]

I wouldnt recommend putting dance in a macro with anything but tea

[charred sandal]

i would recommend macroing symbols with it but having it still bound to ur bar

[flint umbra]

ok

[shy sparrow]

yea my dance macro is just dance + tea
symbols is separate

[charred sandal]

cuz theres instances u symbols without dance

[uneven scarab]

If you are playing deathstalker you can macro sod+dance

[shy sparrow]

but big opener is one macro

[uneven scarab]

because you always use the two together

[shy sparrow]

for me

[uneven scarab]

yeah

I have a macro for when all cd’s are up

thats generally fine

[hexed bluff]

Insightful conversation

[charred sandal]

rogue

[trim ridge]

i have a macro with blades sod prepot and trinket and thats abt it personally

[charred sandal]

my honest reaction

[vestal escarp]

goated icon

along with trickster

too bad: sub rog

[trim ridge]

any valeera enjoyers?

[shy sparrow]

i hate that deathstalker in m+ now is actually something i actually prefer
because for a couple of dungeons it made me forget how goofy this spec is

[trim ridge]

so ur experience was good?

would u recommend trying it?

[shy sparrow]

i mean i preferred it to trickster m+

[trim ridge]

oh..

thats something

i'll do a lil bit of trolling on a +8 see how it goes

[shy sparrow]

i did more damage with it because at least to me it felt more like something that requires less coordinated pulls

[charred sandal]

im gonna rant about DS till it becomes the edgy and flashy it deserves to be

[trim ridge]

will never be flashy

cuz we rogues

dont get cool animations

[shy sparrow]

i'm purely feelycrafting though and i grey parse raids so take what i say with a lot of salt

[charred sandal]

secret tech is cool, if the sound wasnt so low and the shadows so dim

death from above was cool if it didnt stunlock u

killing spree also cool

other than that is just slashy slashy

[trim ridge]

sech tech animation

is dogshit

half the time is not even noticeable

[charred sandal]

i think if they made the sound of impact much more distinct and powerful it would feel better and meaningful

after all is the "big dmg" button

[trim ridge]

as a lot of ppl said, sec tech should have the contract trinket animation

[charred sandal]

that would be so cool

[trim ridge]

yep

[charred sandal]

but then again, they hate rogues

even the own team designing em

[trim ridge]

i mean

when a promotion in class design is getting out of designing rogue

LMAO

never used shuriken tornado, when should i use it? on cd?

[charred sandal]

allegedly, never

[shell bramble]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[trim ridge]

oh, saw the build on the pins and it has tornado, should i just not press it?

[topaz raptor]

yeah what's the new build

[charred sandal]

ngl, i tried out that specific build without knowing it was the thing now thinking i was trolling

[topaz raptor]

kush was running tornado goremaws brew deathstalker

[trim ridge]

check pins

[topaz raptor]

is that the sauce

[charred sandal]

and it was actually them deeps

[topaz raptor]

is tornado sweet

[charred sandal]

if im not wrong u press tornado with symbols inside dance and u go BP - Tech - BP - BP

[spark tusk]

It’s like season 2 df all over again

[charred sandal]

yeah lmao

important to pair with symbols since tornado chunks energy

[spark tusk]

So with DS aoe, do you still prio darkest night when it’s up?

[fair stump]

yeah

[real belfry]

Does the aoe build work for fights like Ulgrax? Or should invigorating shadowdust still be taken?

[pliant topaz]

Darkest night really do be going brrr! only if singular focus was actually working with things, darkest night and Deathstalker marks weren’t bugged.

[sweet summit]

truee its way more in sub flavor too

[sinful sluice]

hows Harvester's Edict?

tbh not too sure what to take here, mythic harvester or mad queen

[short radish]

mad queen

[sinful sluice]

oki

[charred sandal]

Would be so cool if it was like a sequence of shadowstrikes from multiple directions but the animation lock would be hard to implement into sub playstyle

[sweet summit]

if they just make it do enough dmg then it doesnt matter if it locks : )

highest of copiums tho

sad sub doesnt have it

[charred sandal]

Fuk it, just make it like shuriken tornado but with shadowstrikes a single target 💀

[half comet]

do the daggers from M+ matter at all if youre doing mythic raid

[pliant topaz]

id probably take the cloak if u care about keys

nice effect

[hazy breach]

Helmet is nice though

1 of the 2 vers+mastery helmets

[pliant topaz]

yeah but 2nd boss helm isnt too bad either

[half comet]

i didnt craft dagger cuz im an idiot but im reclearing bloodbound on mythic every week

[charred sandal]

You came here to validate ur decision after asking sins first

[half comet]

im asking both

cuz gear is diff for both

[charred sandal]

Unforgivable

[half comet]

I POSTED SAME TIME

[charred sandal]

Lmao

[pliant topaz]

probably take either dagger or helm based on what im seeing your gear

[half comet]

i have a heroic helm for sub i forgot to equip it there

and i have 90 crests to craft a dagger still

[azure mirage]

So are we playing the deathstalker build now in aoe?

[half comet]

i shouldve done it sooner but

mistakes were made w.e

[half comet]

ya if I get bloodbound dagger is there a point in taking the dagger in vault

[pliant topaz]

prob not

maybe wait until after kill then ig

[half comet]

if it doesnt drop do u think craft dagger into take rash cloak is better?

[pulsar mauve]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mWmM6SAhAFgqkjHgmBT5cd
What's the deal with scroll of momentum simming higher than queen's ? It is sim bait ? + I assume the sim isn't taking account sprint or shs, so it could be even better ?

[trim ridge]

did my first deathstalker m+

not used to pressing bp honestly

[violet torrent]

how was your overall lol

[steel horizon]

Yeah it sims the same as mad queens mandate for me

Or within like 0.2 % anyway

[hazy breach]

It does not sprint correct

Transmitter is the good trinket

Then your other slot is just whatever

[empty plume]

iirc it looked disproportionately good on single target and worse on cleave

Not a lot of stats, just a good on-hit

[spark tusk]

Contract sucks because it reminds me of what sectec could look like

[pulsar mauve]

So scroll is not sim bait and is actuly even better than the sim because of sprint and shs ?

Damn, impressive

[empty plume]

Depends if you view single target weight as sim bait I guess

[brave escarp]

A proper rogue never presses anything honestly

[trim ridge]

huh

cuz we cant get invited?

[uneven scarab]

They cant invite us bc we in stealth

Cant see us

[brave escarp]

No. Because we are not honest. What kind of rogue is honest

[empty plume]

We click

[brave escarp]

It was a dad joke, sorry

[trim ridge]

i like dad jokes

dont worry

[hard ember]

as a subtlety rogue, i have been dancing for a long time. as i've grown older, and I've started receiving treatment for osteoporosis. luckily with this new build, I can get some much needed rest. I still enjoy dancing, but now, it's a special occasion. https://i.imgur.com/p1o6TTV.png

[trim ridge]

funny way to say we dont have dust

wait u have dust in that build

lol

[hard ember]

yeah i just took basically almost no shadow dance talents

i was wondering how much it would get it

it's shockingly close

[trim ridge]

U TOOK GLOOMBLADE

[hard ember]

but that's probably because of dust

[hazy breach]

Gloomblade is fine

[hard ember]

i mean this doesn't have shadow dance cdr man this is a full meme

[trim ridge]

lmao

[brave escarp]

I always wanted a gloomblade build, i just don't know where to get the talent point from

[hard ember]

i mean you can play trickster with gloomblade instead of replicating in key i guess

i don't think it'll be good

but that probably impacts you the least

if dark brew becomes good again, gloomblade gets a bit better, so maybe after patch

[brave escarp]

Maybe

[half comet]

do we know the diff between ascension vs elemental lens

[tribal blade]

you could play sin, it can have actual big moments of downtime

w/o screwing the rotation too much

[flint umbra]

so when you guys say shadowblades isnt working with nimble flurry

is it the portion of shadow damage

[tribal blade]

from what i know yes

[flint umbra]

or the entire auto attack just stops cleaving

oh ok

still annoying

[tribal blade]

but i'm not 100% sure about that bug

if someone can clarify

[flint umbra]

btw is gloomblade any good

[tribal blade]

it's ok with DS builds, but there's not a lot of wiggle room to pick it up

[flint umbra]

ds?

[vestal escarp]

Orange parses as sin

[tribal blade]

deathstalker

[hazy breach]

If you do a 100 dmg eviscerate, blades does 20 damage and then nimble cleaves ~33 damage

[flint umbra]

oh right my bad

[vestal escarp]

It's never been more joever

[flint umbra]

oof

[hazy breach]

If blades isnt up you'd do a 100 dmg eviscerate and nimble cleaves ~33

[flint umbra]

yeah thats rough

[tribal blade]

so i simmed silent storm DS vs WM DS and WM won

but then again the top damaging move on the sims was evis

for some reason

so the target count was just not there i guess

[lethal gale]

People who tried ds in higher keys how does it feel now? Better overall compared to trickster?

[hazy breach]

Well every 4th finisher is eviscerate

[tribal blade]

right right

[hazy breach]

So in dslice you'd have eviscerates from ST and then eviscerates from aoe

[flint umbra]

but it gloomblade not worth the talent?

[tribal blade]

not right now no

[flint umbra]

ok

wish i could be a bit more shadowy themed

[hazy breach]

On pure ST its about as good as premed/tfd etc

[tribal blade]

gloomblade should be baseline now

backstab is a shit button

but that would mean blizz would have to put more dev time into sub heehee

[tropic pier]

Are there sims for 11.0.5? I'm curious how our build might change.

[pliant topaz]

there are really no build alternatives

its all db

for all content and every situation

the only quesiton is if 1 point of deaths perception is worth it. on its own that talent is as strong as gb (litearl dog shit)

[tribal blade]

wait really

[pliant topaz]

but supercharger could potentially make it less dogshit (supercharger isnt implemented in sims yet)

[tribal blade]

that is wild, i would have thought a 2nd charge of symbols would be more

goddamn

[flint umbra]

this is my build rn, im hoping the damage will be decent for aoe

[pliant topaz]

why?

what do u think it accomplishes?

[flint umbra]

i really like the playstyle of spamming a lot of buttons

[tribal blade]

i guess because of energy+CPs during dances

[vestal escarp]

Makes second dance not dogshit to play

[pliant topaz]

I thnk eleem played around with it, the best version of it with the 3% sod damage was a 3.5% dps loss

alternative is like 6.5% so i guess its a 3% talent

[tribal blade]

man that blows

[pliant topaz]

2% of it comes from the 3% sod damage it gives

[shrewd lantern]

#outlaw

[vestal escarp]

That talent should be on the shadow focus row

Underpowered af

[flint umbra]

i also like the more shadowy assassin theme

[tribal blade]

so that talent should realisitically give more like 8-10% more dmg to symbols

[shrewd lantern]

i mean you’ll do tank damage

outside your cds

[flint umbra]

its that bad?

[pliant topaz]

i mean at what point are you taking the talent for its purpose or just being forced to because xD devs want u to?

[shrewd lantern]

Yes

[flint umbra]

but does the burst hit super hard?

[pliant topaz]

its like saying ->PV gives you 800% auto attack damage

great talent

its like well ...

[shrewd lantern]

Not really

[tribal blade]

i wanna cry

[hazy breach]

The problem is that blades is 16 seconds, and symbols by itself with inev is ~12 or 12.5

[flint umbra]

i mena we have decent uptime on the cds tho right?

[shrewd lantern]

compared to good classes

[tribal blade]

PV needs to die in a fire

[shrewd lantern]

define “decent”

you get blades for what 20s?

[hazy breach]

So the extra charge doesnt give that much extra during cd

[shrewd lantern]

Every 90

[hazy breach]

Blades is 16 on ptr

[shrewd lantern]

Oh

[flint umbra]

when you mean bad damage outside of cds is it just shadow blades?

[vestal escarp]

Another huge troll from them

[shrewd lantern]

blades flag always go together

[flint umbra]

so outside of those 2 the damage is shit?

[vestal escarp]

As if they didnt notice that dancing back to back makes you miss on sectech

[tribal blade]

the nerf to blades duration makes 0 sense

like, they actually have put 0 thought into changes

[hazy breach]

It does make some sense, the idea is to lower the powerlevel of it

[pliant topaz]

why though

its already not strong

[tribal blade]

it does in that sense, but it completely fucks the rotation

[pliant topaz]

its borderline worthless in aoe

[vestal escarp]

0 logical, at this point im full tinfoil hat there had to be other reasons

[pliant topaz]

for half the builds

(trickssteR)

[hazy breach]

Tbh i think 16s would be fine if we could sectech twice

And flag wasnt 24 seconds

[pliant topaz]

I think the idea was to keep it similar duration over the course of a fight

[tribal blade]

sub is also not tuned high atm so leaving blades duration at 20 secs seems fine to me

[pliant topaz]

2 min -> 1.5 min
20 seconds -> 16 seconds

similar duration in a fight

[hard ember]

hmm, do you lose alot in aoe to drop silent storm for weaponmaster

[pliant topaz]

the issue is blades itself doesnt do anything, its the damage u do during blades that matters. and that damage only happens during dances. and this way, u are reducing dance uptime on the blades making it a lot worse

[tribal blade]

it was a gain for me in dslice to take WM over silent, but in reality not sure

[hard ember]

i'll sim aoe patchwerk and st patchwerk and compare

like if it's a ton in aoe i guess that's fine i'll get silent storm but

weaponmaster bing bing wahoo combo point jackpot no whammies

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9shjjKNhtecPzSqkTFJaH1 alright listen here

i'll sim it with the actual buffs i have available and relevant timers and stuff but

cmon

[flint umbra]

dang you guys make it seem like sub is just straight ass

[hard ember]

12k difference in 6t patchwerk in aoe

[flint umbra]

is it that bad or are you guys overexaggerating

[weary saffron]

play it for a while then decide

[hard ember]

between taking improved backstab and wm vs. taking a bit of MS and silent storm

@weary saffron

[flint umbra]

i have been but im just timewalking

not able to see realistic damage yet

[vestal escarp]

One thing i realized today is, if you can spend the builder buff from proccing a mark on anyone, why not extend it to storm?

[weary saffron]

i think trickster and shadowdust is perhaps the most fun ive ever had on a rogue spec, but that opinion is extremely unpopular. even with that opinion, the numbers are just not there atm

[hazy breach]

Thats absolutely not an extremly unpopular opinion

[weary saffron]

thats the vibe i get most times i look in here or hear others talk about shadowdust tbh

[flint umbra]

isnt that dust talent being removed

[weary saffron]

yes

[hard ember]

equip a heart of azeroth, azerite, dragonflight tiersets, grieftorch, etc

then you will do 5x the dmg of everyone else combined

timewlaking is a meme

[hazy breach]

for 2 weeks more

[weary saffron]

no real reason to set any hard opinions on sub atm until the patch comes and some more tuning thunder

its not in a state to attract players though so itll sound more doom for sure

more doom than it ever really is

[flint umbra]

can someone link the changes

[pliant topaz]

its spread across multiple posts

you can go to bluetracker.gg

and go through the ptr developement notes

[lucid lily]

Anyone have a weakaura they like for transmitter?

[tribal blade]

ok sub is unironically keeping up in aoe now

it's hard to tell because this group trolled the fuck out of a SV 11

and let fears go off on the 1st pull and i lost all cds

but the times there was no trolling i was keeping up with the frost mage and udk

[real belfry]

What talents? DS or Trick?

[vestal escarp]

Only the realest doomlords remember when nimble was 20% amp on sectech

[vestal escarp]

You can go safely with the tts one, shoul be most popular result on wago

[tribal blade]

DS

DS does significantly more aoe dam than trickster

[tidal salmon]

dude legit i saw 14m on first pull nw

fuck all fdks

hail to the king

ds isnt that bad actually, snapshotting low hp mob to refresh dn also feels nice

[tribal blade]

sub realistically needs more buffs

best way would be in the way of bugfixes

but aura buff would be nice too

[tidal salmon]

we need a shadowdance buff to have more uptime on it

maybe it gets more cdr idk

[shrewd lantern]

nah

more dance is a fucky rabbithole

[tidal salmon]

its hard to buff our dmg outside of cds

if they do it we'll be op on cds and eventually get nerfed again

more dance uptime is the solution

and ofc nimble

[shrewd lantern]

no it just needs to actually be best burst spec

more dance uptime is just degen specs like SL and early df sub

[tribal blade]

nah he's right, sub does need more cdr right now

[tidal salmon]

yeah, pretty much only time sub was played

[tribal blade]

they nerfed our cdr on dance because of S3-4 tier set

[shrewd lantern]

with current damage tuning yes

[tribal blade]

but we lost that tier set, so we lost a LOT of CP generation, which meant lower cdr

[shrewd lantern]

But I support the spec hitting like a freight train

[tribal blade]

so now our dance cdr is way too tight

[shrewd lantern]

then wet noodling outside cds

[tidal salmon]

i'm convinced giga burst specs cant be tuned well

same shit with arcane

[shrewd lantern]

because fotm players

[tidal salmon]

they either op af or shit

[shrewd lantern]

oh you wanna be a flatline spec

ask outlaw how thats working

[tidal salmon]

i dont

[shrewd lantern]

for them

[tribal blade]

we currently don't burst high enough for a burst spec

[tidal salmon]

but most of the specs are like that and burst ones cant fit into comps

[shrewd lantern]

my point exactly

with current tuning you either need more cdr or more burst

But i support more burst

[pliant topaz]

yeah true leigon sub sucked fuck that shit not playable for sure

[shrewd lantern]

legion sub was the goat

too bad dfa sometimes had the tendency to fly you below the floor

because intern game

i mean my tinfoil theory is they dont buff sub burst more

because pvpers will cry

[pliant topaz]

theres a thing called pvp scaling

which already exists

and nerfs some of subs finishers in pvp only combat

[shrewd lantern]

not even sure which of those is still active

[pliant topaz]

u can check on wowhead

[tidal salmon]

pretty sure ppl work for blizzard arent clever at all to do this

[shrewd lantern]

there was a point when the mastery was flat out

at like .8

or something

in pvp

considering they let dhs run rampant for almost 2 entire df seasons

[tidal salmon]

ds doesnt look bad btw, im happy with current burst

[shrewd lantern]

im not sure their balance team does work

[tidal salmon]

max i saw was 7 till buffs, legit i sae 2x of it today

[pliant topaz]

1. thats a pretty fucking rude thing to say 2)its not that deep. theyre more than smart/capable

its a question of if they want to/care to

sorryr i repluiced to the wrong comment

im cooked

but i guess @ kuro

[shrewd lantern]

They can do it

whether they know how the game works

is a different story

[tidal salmon]

do they even play a rogue is a different story also

legit all remaining 100 sub rogues were playing trickster

and they buff bp

last time i felt this much disrespected was on highscool with the history teacher

[willow fulcrum]

[pliant topaz]

crazy cocept, they buffed the thing that no one played because it was so weak

[tribal blade]

they finally did the BP tuning we needed

it only took them...

3 tiers?

[tidal salmon]

i dont complain dont get me wrong lol

[tidal salmon]

is the meme

[tribal blade]

we were in here after the rework saying "dw BP surely gets tuned, shit hits for nothing"

and it never came

[tidal salmon]

in a few mins i'll dream** myself running everbloom with the %35 buff

already excited lol

[tribal blade]

you couldn't pay me to do that dungeon again

last boss taking 6-7 mins on a title range key

was just next level

[tidal salmon]

yeah this dream ends with a 6 min fight and wipe on last boss

god for a sec i remembered how much time it was taking

to get inv on a 27+ eb as sub

[tribal blade]

sub was just absolute dogshit on that boss too

[tropic pier]

How much did the buff and this new build increase our dungeon dps?

[tidal salmon]

at least i had nice friends that didnt blame me doing no dmg on the add

[tribal blade]

significantly

we're no longer target capped in aoe

[tropic pier]

How much in dungeonslice as a ballpark?

[tidal salmon]

with a shit pug party, almost same dmg. with pulls around you, up to %30 more overall

[tropic pier]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pliant topaz]

can i introduce you to last boss dawnbreaker taking 6.5 minutes on a 12?

[tribal blade]

not a huge amount in dsclice compared to sin

[tribal blade]

bro i know 😦

[tropic pier]

Pretty good.

[hazy breach]

7-8%ish compared to trickster

In dslice

[tribal blade]

missing the timer on a 12 DB by 48 seconds was huge pain

[tidal salmon]

i prefer doing dawnbreaker last boss all night, instead of everbloom last bostt for 10 mins tho

[pliant topaz]

i did a 12 siege today was kinda cool actually

first pull i shrouded the tank in

he aggrod the pack above stairs

got ps on pull

we los + lusted

did both packs together

[hazy breach]

The mark bug actually sucks in keys though

Since i have DN up from the previous pack when i strike to tp > rupture it doesnt increment the mark

[pliant topaz]

imagine if that worked

[hazy breach]

So i just have to send evis, which feels kinda sus

[pliant topaz]

or DN worked with shadowed finishers

[tribal blade]

that's big, if you don't do that the 1st pull kinda small

[pliant topaz]

or follow the blood worked with shadowed finishers

or singular focus worked with sectech

[sudden lark]

idk about OL but sub as a flatline spec worked perfectly

back in df s1

we were strong everywhere

or at least stronger than we are now

kek

i swear that coulda been the future of sub and burst lovers just needed to get with the time lol

[sudden lark]

brother @tribal blade how much dps can u maintain on the cleave dummies?

with the new ds stuff, no tornado

i can't help feel like im doing something wrong in aoe

by strictly using only one dance with every symbol

until big cds

[shrewd lantern]

I had a strong dislike for df s1 sub

[sudden lark]

and yet it was strong but not broken lol

[shrewd lantern]

i dont care if its strong

i just found it unfun

[sudden lark]

like obviously it'd be better if we could fulfill the burst fantasy

[shrewd lantern]

atp i havent enjoyed sub

since legion sub

[uneven scarab]

idk i like it alot rn, just has tuning issues/bugs

[sudden lark]

but logically, tuning a flatline spec is just gonna be much easier than making sure a burst class to be able to average out to a certain lvl of dps after a whole dungeon

also, legion's dfa sub and df s1's 1 dance build plays quite similar lol

[shrewd lantern]

legion dfa bursted much harder

df s1 is a wet noodle comparatively imo

[sudden lark]

idk if u remember, but even the dfa playstyle didn't have to min max finality

it's literally just

send dance/dfa on cd

the same thing as df s1

oh i guess vanish

[shrewd lantern]

honestly the sweatiest thing you could do

with dfa sub

was shuriken toss+step on pull

for concordance 100%

[sudden lark]

idk

i fucking hate 2 dance tbh

[uneven scarab]

thats why we play trickster

and have a good time

[oak hearth]

is sub still dogshit

[sudden lark]

but then i hate the "hero talent fantasy" of trickster

like the playstyle is fine and all

but idk

[oak hearth]

or can i play it now and do good

[sudden lark]

and yeah i also fucking hate trying to manage 2 stack dance builds in m+

esp since they also changed dance cdr since i last played

[uneven scarab]

Yeah the fantasy is pretty meh but i quite like the playstyle

[sudden lark]

yeah i guess just like xiani chases dmg profile

im obsessed with the "fantasy" lmao

i swear if outlaws weren't shitty peasant criminals

i'd play that spec probably

button spamming is fun man

[uneven scarab]

I really love the deathstalker fantasy but i do not enjoy it at all in aoe

Shit is not cash

[sudden lark]

BRO

that talent

is just not designed for aoe period

[uneven scarab]

No man

[sudden lark]

it's so bad

[uneven scarab]

Why not just make dn work with bp as well

[sudden lark]

like they can buff the number and make it cracked like rn

ikr!

dude if u scroll up

[uneven scarab]

we cant cleave our env like assa can

its stupid af

[sudden lark]

i legit said they should make bp proc dn

like a day ago

lmfao

these fuckers

[uneven scarab]

Was my legit first thought when i played it in a key

randomly using evisc in aoe sucks

[sudden lark]

you'd think these fuckers would take some time to playtest sub for 15 mins whenever they extend their maintaintence and take servers off line for like 6 hours straight

jesus fuck

but i guess we don't rake in enough sub counts

to be worth even those 15 mins of testing time

[uneven scarab]

yeah exactly how i feel lmao

[rancid surge]

Any tips on sub in m+? Ive only done it twice in low keys and honestly idk wtf im doing wrong cause my avg is lowwww

[sudden lark]

at some level i can see what they're going for

[uneven scarab]

like legitimately you cant tell me anyone playtested ds sub in a dungeon and thought yeah this works

[sudden lark]

lke they want to make it intuitive to proc cut to the chase i guess?

but then

wtf is the point of cut to the chase

for ds????

esp in aoe???

like

[hazy breach]

What

[sudden lark]

what

[hazy breach]

You use eviscerate

[sudden lark]

proccing hunt them down more?

when ur BP is like 50% of ur overall dmg?

[hazy breach]

its not

[vagrant fulcrum]

you want to consume DN

[sudden lark]

am i skipping steps in my reasoning or what

basically what im saying is

i assume they make consuming darkest night evisc only

[vagrant fulcrum]

why doesn't powder consume dn?

and benefit

[sudden lark]

bcuz then it forces us to evisc

which then refreshes snd

[vagrant fulcrum]

two things

[hazy breach]

The fantasy of marking a specific target

[sudden lark]

except snd is worthless for deathstalker aoe

unlike how snd is core to trickster

[hazy breach]

Is the reason why its eviscerate

How is it not core

Its a massive part of your energy and cp regen?

[sudden lark]

like deathstalker just feels like a giant ball of stats with no interaction between its own components or with sub spells

[vagrant fulcrum]

1. if powder consumed and benefitted from dn we'd have some degeneracy in raid fights around holding a dn black powder and making sure to prepare momentum of despair for it

[sudden lark]

meanwhile trickster is this well oiled machine

[vagrant fulcrum]

2. its a mark on 1t, makes sense that you kill that specific target

[sudden lark]

do u not just force momentum of despair with silent storm lmao

if it's that important

[hazy breach]

Why would snd be more core to trickster than ds

[sudden lark]

what????

[vagrant fulcrum]

picture any of the mass aoe add spawn situations in raid, you dont want bp to be your 2nd global, you'd rather it be first followed by sectec

[hazy breach]

Do you know what shadow techniques does

[sudden lark]

u dont miss the energy of shadow techniques in aoe tho, not the cp either

but you WILL miss blade flurry

[hazy breach]

Ofc you do?

[vagrant fulcrum]

you miss the energy for sure

wot

you still playing abberus sub or something?

we REALLY go out of energy now

[sudden lark]

oh i don't run dust lol

pure m+ build

pure m+ setting

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter

[sudden lark]

like when u got 5~8 targets, and every storm fills ur cp bar

do we rly care about shadow techniques?

[uneven scarab]

Idk i just dont think ds feels good in aoe

[vagrant fulcrum]

if anything dust gives you more energy than nond ust

[uneven scarab]

thats my thing

[sudden lark]

yeah having to stop bp to throw out an evisc feels horrible lol

[uneven scarab]

assa gets to cleave their dn, we kinda just randomly use a full st spell during aoe

feels bad

[wispy bolt]

new sub build blows on 1st boss of mists holy

[vagrant fulcrum]

sin dn is better too, double amp juices it

[uneven scarab]

Yeah for sure, fucking MEGA envenom

[vagrant fulcrum]

we're constrained more by shadow techniques than energy

[sudden lark]

honestly tho

forcing 7 cp also just feels horrible

in general

the amount of time i land on 6 and sent the evisc expecting the 7th cp to slot itself in

[vagrant fulcrum]

all ima say is rogue as a class is engineered to frustrate the user

[sudden lark]

idk

[vagrant fulcrum]

ret: let's bake in the cd into the 30s spell people love to press, let's remove seraphim and any maintenance + setup buffs so they can just press their fun big damage spell and immediately do well

rogue: hehe xd

[sudden lark]

trickster feels completely fine

super intuitive in keys

[wispy bolt]

i might run trickster in keys still

this is ass

[sudden lark]

but then they leave a crippling bug for the whole launch of expac

[wispy bolt]

less burst damage + boss damage sucks

[vagrant fulcrum]

all ima say is

[uneven scarab]

Trickster just feels intuitive yeah

It works out fine and feels fine

[vagrant fulcrum]

why does ds work the way it does

why thought this is fun

[sudden lark]

i've said this b4 lol

with ds

[vagrant fulcrum]

mark just vanishes randomly every key at some point

[sudden lark]

i swear blizz just fking

made a pure sin hero tree

[vagrant fulcrum]

and ur like tf happened to my mark

[sudden lark]

and then forced sub skills into it

to meet launch deadline

[hazy breach]

Just like trickster

is sub only

[sudden lark]

with 0 thoughts into how well it plays

and yeah

[vagrant fulcrum]

outlaw trickster xd

killing (yourself) spree xd

[uneven scarab]

[vagrant fulcrum]

I swear to god it can't have been playtested

[uneven scarab]

Does outlaw play strictly fatebound?

[hoary sun]

Ngl hero talent is a miss i feel like

[sudden lark]

yeah

like at this point

why tf do they even give us the choice

[old venture]

so you can pretend you made the decision

[sudden lark]

LOL

[warm marlin]

trickster could be 5% ahead and i think it would still be 100% fatebound

[uneven scarab]

Omg

[warm marlin]

ks is literal instant suicide to press

[uneven scarab]

wild oxi

[sudden lark]

man ngl tho

[old venture]

BROTHER THE BOY IS BACK

eventually

[uneven scarab]

missed u

My fav shitposter

[sudden lark]

idk if trickster even catches back up to ds

even if they fixed the flurry bug

or rather bugS, i should say

[frank bobcat]

so it uhhh feels bad, but DS kinda slaps broodtwister

[sudden lark]

yeah

that's the situation we're stuck in rn

[frank bobcat]

i just have to rewire my brain to eviscerate the DN buff

[spark tusk]

what brought you back

[sudden lark]

I wish we could @ realz at this point, even tho i absolutely won't

[frank bobcat]

wanna go brrrr bp but meh

[wispy bolt]

who is realz

[sudden lark]

like they gotta fix up these bugs man

[old venture]

https://tenor.com/view/got-game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-nikolaj-coster-waldau-gif-4536538

[sudden lark]

our mole inside blizz

xD

[wispy bolt]

ah

[sudden lark]

but we appreciate his good will and don't disturb the guy right

i just wish we could get something other than radio silence on crippling bugs

[uneven scarab]

I just wanna wake up on a tuesday and see a list of sub bug fixes

[vagrant fulcrum]

im still amazed no real OL changes announced

[uneven scarab]

not another fire mage visual fix

Or fire mage buff

[sudden lark]

i will say tho, i'm getting more and more used to just fking stopping everything to consume dn after a few gilded crest runs

i can ABSOLUTELY live with ds being meta

even if it feels a little like being kicked in the balls to pilot in aoe

[hazy breach]

Tbf fire got a bug today that made their ignite do like 30% less than it should

Any bets how fast that gets fixed while nimble stays?

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/hooray-letsgo-lets-go-gif-18410791

[uneven scarab]

We’ll see the notes tomorrow

[sudden lark]

k

like 20 mins straight on target dummies

getting used to ds

BUT

still feels like ass to spread rupture

[wise badger]

are u using the pinned build?

[sudden lark]

nah fuck tornado

but the main problem is

sub as a spec needs to semi-manually spread rupture

while ds as a hero tree needs you to tunnel one target, esp with ur finishers

so like u have to either ignore one prio

or the other

[wise badger]

I fucking hate tornado too

[sudden lark]

those few ruptures targeting thigns without my mark

just gives me so much fking anxiety

[wise badger]

as long as you do more dps

its ok

[sudden lark]

these sorts of lose-lose/lesser or 2 evil choices

are failures from a game design perspective tho

[wise badger]

Trickster is the superior spec tbh

it's just better

[sudden lark]

yeah

[dawn trellis]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sudden lark]

the difference in how much they worked on each tree for sub

could be its own meme template

[sullen hare]

It's already a meme?

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions

[tribal blade]

not much tbh, it's not way higher than before the BP buff

thing is 5 targets is kinda shitty for DS

[sudden lark]

rly?

[tribal blade]

because the amount of times you storm and are 1 CP off being able to consume DN

[sudden lark]

oh yeah lmao

but like in m+

5 target is already pretty decent no

[tribal blade]

the real power of DS is in bigger pulls

it's ok

i notice a lot more DS dam when we have more targets

[sudden lark]

hmmm

[tribal blade]

spread ruptures>go into cds and spam BP

[sudden lark]

but i feel like in theory

[tribal blade]

it's not bad

[sudden lark]

all the REAL big pulls in M+ are the lust pulls

and by that point, trickster SHOULD win out by just slamming 3 sectechs and hitting like 5 million dps

[tribal blade]

possibly

[hazy breach]

Lust is better for deathstalker

Lust is mostly rupture damage, which deathstalker does more of

[tribal blade]

but DS's aoe potential is a lot greater

[sudden lark]

but ds is still way less bursty right

[tribal blade]

BP does more as DS

[sudden lark]

unless bp is so strong now

it just straight up overpowers the difference in burst?

[tribal blade]

well considering how having super big highs and super low lows is not great for M+

[wispy bolt]

what build is the DS m+ rn

[tribal blade]

having more constant dmg is better 😉

[wispy bolt]

the one on wowhead?

[tribal blade]

yes BP is pretty strong now

[sudden lark]

dang awesome

[hazy breach]

Big pull burst should be way higher as deathstalker

[sudden lark]

i wish i could play some high keys lmao

[tribal blade]

it's strong enough to BP on 2 target

[sullen hare]

Stronger than ever*!

• *since the launch of the war within

[tribal blade]

i need to actually look at details during a big pull in keys

i tend to never look

[hazy breach]

Since if you use bp you actually have another cooldown besides flag

Compared to eviscerates, now on a big pull you'd BP anyway as trickster too ofc, but still

[sudden lark]

but man idk

im struggling to find the full potential of ds lol

probably bcuz i only played a few 9s

to farm crests

but basically

there's no world where we send more than 1 dance during 1 normal symbols right

no matter how many mobs there are?

[tribal blade]

no never do that

you'll fuck your dance cdr

[sudden lark]

are there situations were we send naked sectech?

[tribal blade]

but also you won't have sectec back up for the 2nd dnace

[sudden lark]

bcuz holy fuck these cds are so cringe now

on the 5 target cleave dummies

i feel like im just

constantly in danger of overcapping

is that bcuz im wm + inev instead of silent storm + tornado?

[tribal blade]

sorry i'm super distracted, doing ovinax prog

and my guild is being super cringe to me because i said it's weird that wow is hosting a political event

[sudden lark]

wtf

are you in a guild full of dustborn fans or what

[tribal blade]

i dunno what's controversial about saying i don't want politics in the game haha

no matter which side of the aisle it's on

[sudden lark]

obviously if ur not on ur knees sucking the dick of sjws then ur a n@zi

that's just how the modern world works

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter

Its better to waste like 10 potential shadow dance cdr than to fuck up your alignment

[tribal blade]

this is why there's no point to having cdr on dance

since we always use it in line with other abilities

cdr only makes sense if it's something you can send on cd

[sudden lark]

pog

but yeah

the dance cdr shit

feels kinda cringe when we have to pool outside of dance

and also buff symbols instead of dance with half the shit in our tree

wait

no chance to not spec it tho, right lmao

[hazy breach]

Spec what

[sudden lark]

the cdr talent

[hazy breach]

Oh ye you definitely do

What else are you gonna spec, gloomblade? lmao

Theres very few points on the tree we can actually move

Thats like within 2% or whatever

[tribal blade]

if you didn't spec into deepening the rotation would be omega scuffed

[sudden lark]

sucks

but i mean

the rotation is omega scuffed rn cd wise

like

i just hate double dance so much man

why cant we just have one dance that lines up more perfectly with symbols

either thru cdr or with a flat cd

this shit where we double dance at the start, and then get dance back a few seconds b4 symbols to build the next double dance window

so fking gross

[wispy bolt]

tornado doesnt show in details. is it just counted as storm?

[sudden lark]

yup

[wispy bolt]

sim for 5 target dummy no buff says 2.4m but i can only consistently do 2.1m. The proportions of damage are all consistent 😦

wait wtf im missing half melee damage kms

[sudden lark]

LUL

[wispy bolt]

and singular focus

[hard ember]

i wish singular focus was tuned more steeply

[sudden lark]

oh yeah i wish that shit actually impacted our gameplay

and wasn't just another elemental focus lense worth of brainless dmg

[solid cipher]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sudden lark]

wait

wtf

why is the sim making me vanish at the start of the fight for tea/brew build lmao

i don't even have silent storm

[plush roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sudden lark]

oh but i guess we prioritize getting sectech out as our 2nd finisher

over consuming DN?

[plush roost]

Sectec gives big shadow dam buff for your DN

with tierset

[sudden lark]

pog

[sullen hare]

Very pog

[sudden lark]

but man i wonder what supercharge does to all that

[hard ember]

@vale pine does the zul conditional still work

[sudden lark]

i also REALLY don't get why we don't just send sectech as our first finisher

[hard ember]

danse macabre

[sudden lark]

yeah but like

how many stacks

do we lose?

strike sectech vs strike evisc strike sectech

[hard ember]

each stack is 6% dmg

[tribal blade]

delaying it for 2nd finisher means a bigger sectec, which does a lot of dammy

[hard ember]

if you're not losing a sectech cast you want it as late as possible

[sudden lark]

hmm

ig number wise sectech is so much bigger than evisc

that 6% for it > 16% for evisc

[hard ember]

in a vacuum where you could only send one last dance in a fight you would try to cast it at the bottom of the dance

[wispy bolt]

the sim dances twice during blades :0

[sudden lark]

?????????????/

[sullen hare]

What finishers and builders are you using in that vacuum

[sudden lark]

what

[tribal blade]

it's also more flag stacks

[sudden lark]

we dance twice during blades always

[tribal blade]

if you delay

[sudden lark]

OH TRUE

[wispy bolt]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cadc6yY7pr18kU1HTYC9es

[sudden lark]

holy shit yeah that's gonna be a bit more

[hard ember]

well if yo'ure in blades you'd press ss, evis, backstab at least

[wispy bolt]

im so dumb

[sudden lark]

i hate you bro

[sullen hare]

I haven't hit backstab in dance since aberrus

[hard ember]

i mean it's just correct if you're in a situation

[wispy bolt]

without dust i assumed we didnt

[hard ember]

where that's the last sectec you're casting in the fight

[sudden lark]

or rather i hate this fucking tier

this man is 10 ilvls lower on mainhand than me and using a haste ring, but sims 100k higher than me in dps bcuz of transmitter

fucking hell

[sullen hare]

There's probably at least one more for you to hate coming up

[hard ember]

it's probably the cornerstone principle of playing dps yeah

[wispy bolt]

i need to craft a ring HAHAH i dont even have 2 embellishment rn

[hard ember]

like if you only have 1 cd left and can't possibly get 2, then you'll send it in optimal conditions

i do wonder if you have a scenario

where the evis is specifically a tdn

if it would be worth to send that with more danse stacks

maybe if sectec isn't up

er

[sullen hare]

Still better than the just send it era of sub

[hard ember]

cold blood

or something

[sudden lark]

man i wish the timewalking classic shit can have some giga busted heroic trinket

that replaces transmitter

[hard ember]

you mean

like the one it does

[sullen hare]

You'll jump and you'll like it

[sudden lark]

the minigame is one thing

but holy fuck

baseline haste

no mainstat

just BtE me irl at this point

[sullen hare]

Um

[hard ember]

i mean it could be worse

it could take the haste away after you press the trinket

🙂

[sudden lark]

LOL

but yeah it's so stupid that we're so weak outside of cds

[hard ember]

give me ashes back i'm so tired of minigames

[sudden lark]

we can actually make this sort of garbage work

i'd rather be a flatline spec lmao

[sullen hare]

Make it 16 haste at 619 ilvl and I still won't care because it's a uniquely great trinket for sub

[wispy bolt]

jump three times is the worst

my brain cant jumop and do rotation at the same time

im too stupid

[sullen hare]

I think balls the worst personally

Just have cursed keybindings like alt ` that free up the space bar

https://tenor.com/view/dont-hug-me-im-scared-dance-dancing-happy-excited-gif-5155625

[wispy bolt]

i should macro jump and strike/storm

[sullen hare]

My condolences. Let me know when the funeral service for your energy bar will be held