what I would like to see personally is making Cheat death/elusiveness a choice node
#assassination
faint harness
cant make the dance side too good either right
if anything there should be more reason to go into the other parts of the class tree
icy shoal
The blind path does seem a little bad for assassination compared to the others at least
faint harness
the "outlaw path" is probably worse for every spec atm
faint harness
i blame ER
icy shoal
there is an improved ambush spec for outlaw though thats probably pretty good with that path
spice spire
If you speak about outlaw for more than 10 messages mister tomelvis shows
icy shoal
yeah idk how good the bottom tier points are in that tree
faint harness
If you speak about outlaw for more than 10 messages mister tomelvis shows
is it like beetlejuice
spice spire
Yeah
bleak sky
zac the sanest outlaw player
faint harness
zac the sanest outlaw player
low bar
spice spire
More like the most insane (he’s really good too)
faint harness
ye i'm a fan
spice spire
Inb4 colour becomes a 3 rogue guild
faint harness
the way it looks, prob have to 
sharp falcon
Right class side is definitely ... very good ... ER looks a little weak in the center even with all 3 pts invested. Or at least that sounds like the consensus (in which case I probably agree)
bleak sky
spice spire
0 seal fate taking tho 
faint harness
Yea maybe i am looking at it too narrowly
sharp falcon
Reasonable take
sharp falcon
By default, if an uninformed player, or just someone who didn't want to think too hard, were to gravitate towards the portion of the class tree that is themed around their spec... that's kind of a fine base instinct to have
faint harness
makes sense
ER is good for outlaw
Did not really look at it from that PoV a lot, ngl
sharp falcon
Among the crowd that really likes ER, I've noticed the majority tend to be Outlaw mains
spice spire
Among the crowd that really likes ER, I've noticed the majority tend to be Outla...
Insane people 
sharp falcon
didn't do any official investigation into sentiment, that's only my own observations, but it seems to hold true
faint harness
Probably true, sub plays it atm but with the loss of enveloping and edge of night, a lot of that value gets lost
loud light
shadow dance/FW being the sub flavor, seal fate being the sin one, both make some sense, don't know if ER really feels 'outlaw' enough to me but I get that the more iconic outlaw stuff is trickier to share
bleak sky
sin not getting anything out of the extra cps really makes ER... lackluster?
spice spire
^
bleak sky
but as push said sub is also losing enveloping so who knows
faint harness
rupture only getting duration and not damage from cps probably adds to that
loud light
acrobatic strikes being available to sin and sub without a massive sacrifice would be a cool feature though
sharp falcon
shadow dance/FW being the sub flavor, seal fate being the sin one, both make som...
It was penciled-in as Roll the Bones briefly, but there were more reasons not to do than to to do it
spice spire
Acrobatic strikes so I don’t ape out on gorechop every theater 
bleak sky
acrobatic strikes being available to sin and sub without a massive sacrifice wou...
imo that's a fair choice
drowsy parcel
spice spire
Kayl it’s okay
bleak sky
investing into the outlaw tree for something that's really "outlaw" feels fair
spice spire
We had the shadowlands
sharp falcon
SBS very not Outlaw flavor (opinion, change my mind?), vibes much more with Assassin imo
spice spire
I’ll miss him too 
faint harness
I think my main issue with acrobatic strikes in the builds i have made is that you sacrifice throughput to take it, but i guess that's one of those meaningful choices
loud light
investing into the outlaw tree for something that's really "outlaw" feels fair
sure, just saying right now the tradeoff might be too much
strange python
SBS very not Outlaw flavor (opinion, change my mind?), vibes much more with Assa...
agree 100%
vast forum
sbs thematically fits assa much better
faint harness
you have like lethality and alacrity on the same wave length as acrobatic
vast forum
but it plays into outlaw very well
bleak sky
SBS is really nice for outlaw in M+, not really in a raid environment. Makes a fast paced spec even faster and it's super fun
spice spire
SBS very not Outlaw flavor (opinion, change my mind?), vibes much more with Assa...
It’s more buttons to spam = outlaw covenant (I kid, it screams assassination to me)
bleak sky
while in a raid environment sbs gives assa a really nice builder
vast forum
maybe sbs instead of thistle tea? 😮
strange python
If it comes back, I hope it has the multiple (3?) charges and refund mechanic in tact. I realize 5 is a bit much.
bleak sky
and gives assa stronger cleave in M+
faint harness
I never liked sbs because it doesnt feel like a rogue ability, but that might just be me
bleak sky
I'd say sbs is a pretty nice choice for both outlaw and assa, it's really just sub that doesn't vibe with it
vast forum
i can vibe with snd removal xd
strange python
I can take or leave snd...like i dont care either way.
royal lantern
everyone can
vast forum
or make it scale with sub mastery ❤️
royal lantern
shit ability, litearlly the worst ability ingame
faint harness
Idk about that
royal lantern
just give rogue 30-40%more attack speed and remove that thing
so that sub doesnt get fucked
spice spire
shit ability, litearlly the worst ability ingame
There are some stinkers buddy
It’s definitely not the worst
faint harness
I think the hate towards snd is a bit much
bleak sky
snd may be boring but it's strong and nice to have
royal lantern
it just feels so extremly pointless to even exsist at all
assa/outlaw use it once and then never again
so why is it even a thing?
spice spire
It’s definitely a take or leave to me but it’s strong 
vast forum
my hate for snd comes mostly from the fact that it doesn't interact with ER 😄
spice spire
so why is it even a thing?
Originally wasn’t by design, but the answer is damage
On the assa side
It was a maintenance spell, cttc wasn’t in
vast forum
having to refresh slice when playing sub but i just landed on a nice 2cp animacharge and not sure if my WM/2p/4p procs will allow another 2cp use makes me 
faint harness
spoiled
spice spire
And while it’s a QoL thing, yeah, idk it was weird to have CttC added and invalidate it.
royal lantern
its just, we had years of rogue without slice&dice, and i litearlly never saw somone say"oh boy, i want that ability back!"
it was more of an"why SnD?" during SL beta
vast forum
@faint harness how can i plan for 2p/4p/wm procs? 😦
spice spire
maybe plan better
He should have a deeper stratagem
bleak sky
its just, we had years of rogue without slice&dice, and i litearlly never saw so...
as someone who picked up rogue in shadowlands, I can't see the class without it
spice spire
sharp falcon
He should have a deeper stratagem
needs more elaborate planning
faint harness
its just, we had years of rogue without slice&dice, and i litearlly never saw so...
someone clearly did since it came back
vast forum
its just, we had years of rogue without slice&dice, and i litearlly never saw so...
i very much agree with this sentiment
strange python
needs more elaborate planning
Way to cut right to the chase
faint harness
i love how yall think nobody wanted it back because you didn't
night delta
what I don't like SnD for, is that it makes our damage profile look unskilled to outsiders
vast forum
when i heard "focus on class fantasy instead of spec fantasy" at the start of shadowlands, i thought we'd get expose armor or smt 😄
royal lantern
i remember the discussions with the entire" we get some old stuff back for SL" was "pls be something like preperation or burst of speed, but NOT SnD" lol
vast forum
i'm not saying no1 wanted it but i definitely didn't want it
night delta
"your main damage source is white hits ? your class sucks !"
faint harness
but thats not even true
uneven hamlet
its just, we had years of rogue without slice&dice, and i litearlly never saw so...
I think rogues 'hitting' fast kinda fits the theme
strange python
lol better than it being frost shards 🤣
vast forum
rogues alrdy hit fast
spice spire
^
royal lantern
I think rogues 'hitting' fast kinda fits the theme
give rogue 30-40%more attack speed baseline
congratz, its done
spice spire
On ghost’s point
vast forum
we're the only ones with 1.8 base attack time from daggers
royal lantern
and dont make it a weird finisher that only feels bad to use and only gets used once per fight by 2 specs lol
vast forum
maybe if there was skill to maintaining it without pressing it 🤔
strange python
I can't honestly say that rogue feels bad at all currently
I think it felt better while wearing dashing scoundrel (although that was just a tiny bit of extra energy gain, I get it) - it still felt noticeable - and felt right in 9.1
royal lantern
(beside the fact that SnD was 1 of the reasons why 9.0 assa was a dead spec)
faint harness
spice spire
(beside the fact that SnD was 1 of the reasons why 9.0 assa was a dead spec)
That’s definitely not why
vast forum
oh ye, 9.0 assa was super cringe
royal lantern
1 of, not the only
spice spire
It just wasn’t tuned at all
loud light
this is a weird hill to die on
night delta
9.1 was the highlight of shadowlands for me spec wise
bleak sky
Wasn't 9.0 assa just broken? as in nothing worked
spice spire
Stuff worked
royal lantern
nah
vast forum
assa in 9.0 didn't have enough cp to keep up rupture, snd and use more than a few envenoms xd
night delta
also playing necrolord + frost shards, that survivability damn
royal lantern
undertuned af
bleak sky
I see
vast forum
assa definitely DIDN'T work in 9.0
spice spire
40% below uhdks
bleak sky
monka
spice spire
Chilling
faint harness
Yea idk Tryan, literally frothing at the mouth angry about a finisher that you press once per fight 
royal lantern
+constantly refreshing snd feelt really bad gameplay wise tbh
strange python
I think our tuning right now is a bit off - like we either need cleave or we need to be top ST by a mile.
royal lantern
Yea idk Tryan, literally frothing at the mouth angry about a finisher that you p...
its just, why does it even exist then?
spice spire
I mean feeling bad I can see; but it was just what you did - made it a relevant button
bleak sky
assa st is really good though
faint harness
+constantly refreshing snd feelt really bad gameplay wise tbh
i agree with this, but i don't think its the reason it was bad
uneven hamlet
I think they fixed the really bad gameplay tied with snd before, in this state rn I kinda like it tbh
royal lantern
when 2 out of 3 playable specs dont even maintain it
just press once and a spec interaction doesnt let it run out
faint harness
its just, why does it even exist then?
i mean i am not sure why it exists for assa, but it certainly has gameplay elements for both outlaw and sub
strange python
I do see the point - you garrote, hit snd...and then you...never...hit..it..again...what is the point of it?
night delta
nah assa is in a good place since 9.1
loud light
okay so first off, you do not literally always have grand melee as outlaw so saying you only press it once is just wrong
vast forum
all rogue specs are poorly tuned, we're 1 of 2 classes without raid utility, we should be 10% above every1 else on ST
royal lantern
like assa is a top boss damage spec
and in 9.0 before buffs you where tank dps level
even i stopped playing assa there until the buffs lol
loud light
and for sin since cttc exists there's also no reason not to have it
bleak sky
and in 9.0 before buffs you where tank dps level
right, this isn't 9.0
vast forum
nah assa is in a good place since 9.1
9.0.5
spice spire
i mean i am not sure why it exists for assa, but it certainly has gameplay eleme...
It exists so we don’t spam CT in vendetta
earnest remnant
all rogue specs are poorly tuned, we're 1 of 2 classes without raid utility, we ...
royal lantern
uneven hamlet
lmao
earnest remnant
i was about to say something toxic but i cba
i think i know what as well
vast forum
<:weird:718981523885260911>
i'm exaggerating a bit, but we should definitely be stronger in raids atm
strange python
man maintaining CT over using envenoms in ST still feels wierd
agree ... garbo
lone junco
man maintaining CT over using envenoms in ST still feels wierd
it is absolutely ridiculous.
vast forum
why are specs that bring gate/healthstones/lust/raid buffs also doing more damage than us?
royal lantern
why are specs that bring gate/healthstones/lust/raid buffs also doing more damag...
cus warlock/mage are the protagonists of wow
bleak sky
bringing up warlock to make a point isn't gonna help anything
royal lantern
^
vast forum
i didn't specifically say warlock
faint harness
rogues have not been victims this expansion i think
balmy condor
bringing up warlock to make a point isn't gonna help anything
Purple bad
faint harness
even though we lack raid utility
bleak sky
Purple bad
no orange (you) bad
vast forum
i mean, being a rogue was fuckin awful in CN
royal lantern
Purple bad
uneven hamlet
rogues have not been victims this expansion i think
last 2 tier were so good for us
uneven hamlet
even on 9.0.5 you got in for denny
earnest remnant
the tier i had the most fun in was CN by far
uneven hamlet
true
vast forum
CN maybe in 9.0.5
lone junco
the tier i had the most fun in was CN by far
but is the mog good? that's the q
night delta
the tier i had the most fun in was CN by far
encounters felt better in 9.0 but gameplay wise the spec really took off in 9.1 imo
earnest remnant
i pretty much only played sub
faint harness
was pog in sod (due to an item)
ehh i think rogue was fine even without the daggers
mainly because 9.1 unlocked our covenants
bleak sky
i killed sylvanas with no daggers at all
you kinda have to kill sylv with no daggers right
it drops from her
earnest remnant
did you fist fight her?
faint harness
i mean ye i also had 233 sylv dagger in OH for mythic sylv kill
royal lantern
never saw them on any difficulty, not even normal/hc
spice spire
Assa dagger troll
vast forum
mainly because 9.1 unlocked our covenants
i guess that's true, our cov legos are good
earnest remnant
i had 2x HC 
faint harness
ofc you did
uneven hamlet
first dagger I saw was a mythic one after reclearing HC every week from start 
night delta
being able to just go and buy the damn things in s4 will be so fulfilling
lone junco
that bulk Garrote/Rupture talent is silly for 1.5 Min. Youll flood E in aoe, right? could have just made it an SS trait.
vast forum
what?
bleak sky
flood E in aoe ss trait
vast forum
my guy, putting up 20 ruptures in 1 global is not silly
night delta
Indiscriminate carnage ?
vast forum
it's insane
royal lantern
no, its a talent
balmy condor
lone junco
if the stuff lives long enough to get full duration out of it.
spice spire
Carnage + the talent for increased agility per rupture
bleak sky
my guy, putting up 20 ruptures in 1 global is not silly
that's a hard overstate
spice spire
earnest remnant
damage pog
SnD is dmg why is that not Pog?
night delta
in higher m+ that's like, 1 out of 3 packs where we will instantly pop off
good stuff
spice spire
This guy just said indiscriminate is silly
Ur silly
faint harness
SnD is dmg why is that not Pog?
because auto attacks is not a valid dmg source
earnest remnant
noted
spice spire
Push just said autos aren’t valid 
royal lantern
because auto attacks is not a valid dmg source
never said that buddy 
faint harness
never said you did budders
lone junco
15+ ruptures, get the +agi x15. seounds good. Esp if you NS them.
spice spire
Arms warrior would like a word
royal lantern
Arms warrior would like a word
uh dk laughs in 80%of its dmg beeing white hits from pets
night delta
15+ ruptures, get the +agi x15. seounds good. Esp if you NS them.
I think the rupture agi will cap before 15 applications
or else Holy Shit
royal lantern
its all about tuning mate
lone junco
I *think* the rupture agi will cap before 15 applications
the duration for 1 6cp rupture is what?
royal lantern
it could be like 4agility lol
balmy condor
I *think* the rupture agi will cap before 15 applications
No cap
marble hemlock
most scent stacks i could get in bfa was 8-9
bleak sky
on yod
vast forum
6cp rupture is 28 seconds
night delta
fat pull will be insane
lone junco
seli would be the first fucker to be like FOKFOKFOKFOKFOKFOKFOKFOKFOKF
cause the agi stack is too high and the E is infinite.
bleak sky
fat pull will be insane
what kind of pulls are you doing with like 20 mobs?
night delta
6cp rupture is 28 seconds
ah yes its 42 sec when pandemic'd
lone junco
cant pandemic a single rupture though
vast forum
still no, 42 sec rupture might only exist with 7cp from ER
night delta
yeah
lone junco
but point being, 1.5 min. for a big pull, if you NS garrote, then vanish NS RUpture.
vast forum
28*1.3 is ~37 sec
lone junco
same diff. I just have bad feels from stuff like WW completely ass blasting whatever dot damage you think youll get.
ok guys, this stuff lives 30+sec, im a god!
(splat)
night delta
what kind of pulls are you doing with like 20 mobs?
ghosts in ToP right now
loud light
you just need the dream pull of a pile of healthy mobs on top of a boss to carnage and then do the biggest deathmark boss dps
night delta
also bloodlust pulls
loud light
new funnel specialist
spice spire
Has monk tree even been dropped yet?
vast forum
no
spice spire
NICE
bleak sky
ghosts in ToP right now
ghosts in top? the dungeon known for small pulls? and there being 12 ghosts that will die in the blink of an eye?
lone junco
This guy just said indiscriminate is silly
just cautious with stuff with longer run out times. would be cool if it were cool.
bleak sky
the cases where you'd be pogging out for OMG SO MANY RUPTURES are so few that idk man
night delta
ghosts in top? the dungeon known for small pulls? and there being 12 ghosts that...
it's still 12 mobs for big AGI, I can dream damnit
spice spire
Big agility Will more than likely be the bigger payoff
lone junco
cant aoe white melee dmg. so once it is scaled, probably fokking.
but sounds neat. maybe 45s with a 6T :0
anyway, gg
marble hemlock
if the new scent is anywhere close to as good as the old scent was, then even on 2-3target pulls its already gonna be great.
think it was ~5% agi gain per rupture back in bfa
lone junco
I agree there, i always loved that one. did wish it was Verse.
marble hemlock
so yeha, 40-50% more damage on really big pulls
bleak sky
yeah it's hard to say without numbers but idk
lone junco
but the 1.5m point load just sounds awkward.
marble hemlock
it just fell off cause bfa had a shitton of damage sources that didnt scale with agi
lone junco
Saw the energy return from bleed on poison, so that will be nice.
gusty mirage
<:weird:718981523885260911>
don't mind him, we don't take him seriously
marble hemlock
oxi what food do i order?
gusty mirage
doner ez
marble hemlock
if i want a cringe opinion ill ping you, dw
gusty mirage
royal lantern
lone junco
kebab
my recent preference is the McGangbang. McDouble and a McChicken on the same sandwich. (ditch both top buns)
anyway, thinking about rogue main for a bit. wont get stuck healing. and one of the 3 is probably going to be good.
solid mica
spice spire
oak sky
Smh my head
gray warren
aren't those talents totally anti synergy ?
"Garrot increase the damage of your mutilate by 30%"
and then "40% to use Ambush instead of Mutilate" 🤔
violet jackal
You have to mutiliate to get the proc 😉
but yes i agree that talent should be on the doomblade side
gray warren
Mutilate or ambush, so you can have multiple ambush proc. So 40% or 20% of the time you won't benefit from this talent
violet jackal
and sepsis should be on the blindside side
gray warren
yea
sharp falcon
more like, slightly-less-Lethal-Dose, amirite
gray warren
Does lethal dose work with non letal poisons ?
sharp falcon
yes
dark garnet
how would non-lethal poison be a lethal dose, cmon man
gray warren
So dragon tempered blades mandatory ?
pure sinew
sepsis is a poison and necrolord is bleed right
sharp falcon
debatable
sharp falcon
more like, slightly-less-Lethal-Dose, amirite
.
spice spire
Lethal dose reality check inc
oak sky
"Half measure"
thorny pond
"Half measure"
If the glass is half full, pour it into a smaller cup
ebon notch
lethal dose midlife crisis
hollow river
more like, slightly-less-Lethal-Dose, amirite
chilly marsh
realz any ideas about seal fate being mandatory for sin aoe? its just not viable to play sin with fan giving only 1 combo point
vast forum
maybe fan can have seal fate built into the spell instead? 😄
subtle tundra
realz any ideas about seal fate being mandatory for sin aoe? its just not viable...
have you heard of my er no seal fate build?
ofc you didnt.
chilly marsh
no how it work in aoe ?
oak sky
have you heard of my er no seal fate build?
I have 
oak sky
Seal fate= cope who cares that its been baseline since the beginning of time
subtle tundra
you can cry
subtle tundra
you can cry
soft shale
we can make a compilation of using fok and getting 1 cp ion 5 targets
with some flute titanic music going around
oak sky
@subtle tundra this build has the fok talents right so you can juice when youre spamming fok to get a ct off
subtle tundra
we can make a compilation of using fok and getting 1 cp ion 5 targets
so you mean upload the whole dungeon to yt with my build?
oak sky
Real
gusty mirage
so you mean upload the whole dungeon to yt with my build?
make sure you use clickbait titles
or I'm not watching
subtle tundra
Give me alpha and working talents
oak sky
Actual factual
gusty mirage
Give me alpha and working talents
if I could give you that I would homie
oak sky
If i had alpha i would do a normal dungeon with the varas build
vestal wren
Give me alpha and working talents
made you alpha
gusty mirage
lmfaoooooo
subtle tundra
upgrade
gray warren
what am i missing about Zoldyck Recipe ? How can it not be enough to be played in raid ?
And i guess we play Shadow dance only because of new master assassin synergy ?
strange python
Because of the 4p
oak sky
We need to get vw always and dragon tempered always
Hes talking about dragonflight ghost
gray warren
no mb, i should have specify
oak sky
And shadow dance is just better than all other options, contributing factors are definitely MA, nightstalker, and imp garrote working during it
subtle tundra
ujjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
gusty mirage
We need to get vw always and dragon tempered always
ye dragon tempered is just too good as it stands
subtle tundra
there's cringe talent before zoldyck
oak sky
And after
gusty mirage
ven m rush?
subtle tundra
cringe rush
gusty mirage
based
venom rush that buffed the energy regen from venomous was good
they should baseline VW, and make venom rush that again
oak sky
And then theres the fact that zoldyck affects bleeds and poisons but most of the talents leading up to it are on mutilate
subtle tundra
which makes it unplayable for m+!
oak sky
And then you add the fact that its a 3 pointer and its hard to justify for now
But after changes who knows what we go
gray warren
yes but if kingsblade come back as a node with Toxic blade, maybe we will have a kingsbane build that works with Zoldyck ?
oak sky
Its possible
subtle tundra
king's copium
gray warren
kingsbane*
oak sky
All we can work with is what we have right now, and right now zoldyck isnt worth it
gray warren
hum ok ty ^^
i just don't wanna play a build with 50% dmg from auto attack :/ we'll see
oak sky
But long term a lot of shit can and will change so keep checking in lol
gray warren
yup ^^
proper gulch
I seem to be simming higher DPS with MFD instead of Vigor (in Dungeons). And when I use it I feel like it's better as well. Is this just feely craft, or can it actually be better for keys?
subtle tundra
I assume you're talking about venthyr, in which case, yes.
frank nest
Sorry if this has been asked before, can't find it while searching, but did Realz leave? Was trying to catch up on conversations with him but they are all gone now. 
vestal wren
iirc he works currently on DH or other classes
you rly need to keep in mind that devs work on more than one class
frank nest
I am so lost. I used the search, even copy pasted what someone suggested around 6am MDT today and it had no results. Now it's populating. Guess I'm just special. Sorry all.
oak sky
Yeah hes doing rogue and dh i remember
drifting cloud
think he deleted some of his posts
oak sky
Im sure hes got a lot of shit going on improving our trees adding new stuff and also building the dh tree
frank nest
Yeah, I don't want to bother him at all, just like to read up. 
vestal wren
think he deleted some of his posts
rly?
i don't think he delete anything, why would he do that
frank nest
Could be Discord having issues. I'm going to blame Discord. 🙂
amber fossil
hmm, dslice sims are telling me to use MA over Subt for M+ now. As necro, what would the rotation be like on a multi-mob pull? SBS everything then get rupture on as many as possible?
seems like the mobs would all be dead before I could get all the bleeds on them
hollow river
hmm, dslice sims are telling me to use MA over Subt for M+ now. As necro, what w...
just play subt tbh
split grail
This has probably already been asked and answered 100 times, but rogue isn't changing much in s4 right so the meta should still be the same
oak sky
For the most part yes
sharp falcon
Sorry if this has been asked before, can't find it while searching, but did Real...
Even if I'm not posting, I'm always lurking, reading, in the shadows...
obtuse robin
he a fellow degen 5am kinda stuff trust
oak sky
How much do you see 
drifting cloud
he sees what you do in goldshire andrew
oak sky
Yeah i tried my best to hide it but it always comes out somehow
burnt latch
@limber lion is cracked
drifting cloud
get hacked
oak sky
Gn warcieft
amber fossil
just play subt tbh
will do, ty
meager granite
Even if I'm not posting, I'm always lurking, reading, in the shadows...
sub confirmed best spec in DF
sharp falcon
hey man, stealth all rogues
unless outlaw uses various costumes to blend into the crowd, and assassination took lessons from peeta in the hunter games to match surroundings
meager granite
Yeah right, you know that spec which rolls dices and shoot with pistols? Ain't part of us
sharp falcon
if that's how it really is then yeah, ok, sub only ones stealthed 'in the shadows'
sharp falcon
outlaw be like
oak sky
Cutthroat highwayman
oak sky
Outlaw has vanish on restless they go stealth more than assassinstion 🤔
meager granite
In a way, outlaw spends more time in stealth than assa during combat..... time so solve this maybe? 🙂
sharp falcon
all the spent gunpowder gets collected and reused as vanishing powder, makes sense
oak sky
Good thing everyone has dance now
sharp falcon
maybe it should have a diff name depending on your spec
sharp falcon
Sub - "Shadow Dance"
Sin - "Killer Moves"
Outlaw - "Fancy Jig"
oak sky
This is how we fix rogue
meager granite
By the way, you missed the mark by not creating an abitity based on rhum drinking/tossing
time to rename adre rush maybbe
sharp falcon
to be fair, Outlaws are not (specifically, exclusively, or even explicitly) Pirates
even less-so now than BFA really
meager granite
yeah...right
oak sky
So ghost pirate killing spree is just guy's pipe dream?
meager granite
Imagine that we don't talk about talent trees anymore with dev but RP... man the other class discord must hate us
sharp falcon
if you had to take a single form an outlaw could take and assign it as the spec name, Highwayman would be closer than Pirate. YOU can be whatever form of Outlaw you want to be (which is zero people in this particular channel... right?) but the spec itself doesn't aim to evoke any one as its primary form, and is a bit more generalized.
strange python
I just like shooting guns
meager granite
Well to be fair, the design of roll the bones, and the buff icons tends to be really close to pirate stuff, as well as BTE icon. Which are the core revamped spells of the spec
a buff is even named "broadside"
sharp falcon
BTE is just a blunderbuss, Pirates don't have a monopoly on that =x
You're right though, there is still some lingering Pirate-specific vibe in some places
PvP talents I think have even more sharply specific names still
meager granite
BTE is just a blunderbuss, Pirates don't have a monopoly on that =x
we back in the 17th century then 😄
i mean....
we got a 6/6 pirate related icons jackpot there
strange python
Damn he do kinda have a point
oak sky
Ok but does it matter if the half highwayman half pirate has pirate stuff
strange python
I’m happy to be a pirate
strange python
if you had to take a single form an outlaw could take and assign it as the spec ...
We don't like yellow names here
sharp falcon
I think it was way back pre-Legion (I wasn't on the team but was aware of the idea), there was at least some discussion of naming the spec "Pirate" outright. I don't know how serious those discussions were... I also remember (very briefly) hearing some thoughts about "what if" the spec didn't have Stealth at all. Obviously, they didn't go with that, but it's funny (and even a bit fun, imo) to think about
harsh anchor
sharp falcon
but yeah, since the change to outlaw, it's slowly trended away from being specifically Pirate-y
oak sky
Especially now with the cto design being so popular i bet the no stealth wouldnt have gone as well
gusty mirage
well considering cto happened well after that decision
cto wouldn't factor in at all
wut
sharp falcon
I mean this was way before the existence of cto, and it's also just an imaginary world, not a real one
gusty mirage
icy agate
and its not hard to make cto have a triple chance of a different 'non-stealth' proc
sharp falcon
close the oven
strange python
I just got rolled by a dev
midnight mist
harsh anchor
make sure to close it though before you leave
sharp falcon
outlaw baking cakez, will take forever if u leave oven door open, cto good reminder ability make sure u maximize cooking dps
strange python
I thought it was some fancy dev terminology
This is the most yellow names I've ever seen in here
meager granite
I just got rolled by a dev
you'll even get more rolled when he will say int 4 weeks that restless crew talent was a joke and never indented to be implemented. it was all for the lulz
strange python
How can Johnny depp be your dp
And you’re not an outlaw main
Make that make sense
meager granite
cuz i refuse to play outlaw no matter how meta or op it is
guess the finger he uses?
oak sky
Average assassination player
sharp falcon
im just sad jpc told me im not allowed to play outlaw, i liked options =*(
strange python
Don't let him boss you around what's he know
oak sky
Damn
meager granite
im just sad jpc told me im not allowed to play outlaw, i liked options =*(
You are above 30 years old?
sharp falcon
ye
meager granite
i know that feeling
sharp falcon
it do be like that
oak sky
Im under
strange python
Im old man :(
oak sky
My options are wide open
hollow river
im just sad jpc told me im not allowed to play outlaw, i liked options =*(
we believe in you
meager granite
JPC also said you could shroud mid combat with dance to up the MS of the raid
dont believe everything he said 🙂
hollow river
sharp falcon
gotta ruin that potential and then you get to have stories of your 'life experience'
strange python
My favourite is working with old ass people in the same shitty labour job as you give you advice
Like dog were in the SAME spot rn and you’re 55, why would I listen to you
meager granite
so that you don't end up in his spot at 55
Oh by the way @sharp falcon, about talents, with the shaman tree going out, it seems like rogue is the only one with the "8 required line" at the 3rd row and not the 4th. How come you hate us?
sharp falcon
worked better that way for me
no idea how i haven't gotten anyone to follow suit
just how it played out, i hope i don't get forced to change it tbh
it breaks too many things
i can guarantee it wont be the ONLY class if i want to though, lol
meager granite
poor DH
sharp falcon
i don't understand how it's strictly a good/bad thing
the whole point of gates is to be a meaningful restriction that forces some side choices off of main paths
meager granite
I was just messing with you to be fair. I was wondering why the difference, and if that would not be some kind of global guideline given to class dev
sharp falcon
definitely a good kind of topic to have in a post-mortem if we ever do one
oak sky
what use is potential if you're not going to waste it like the rest of us??
Cant waste it your tree makes me want to play outlaw, its unfortunate really
sharp falcon
go over all the process of making the new talent system, look at old thrown out ideas, but what small aspects we might have learned from them and brought forward into new iterations until getting to what you see, etc
dunno if we'll ever do it but all that info is almost certainly available if someone wanted to collect it
meager granite
go over all the process of making the new talent system, look at old thrown out ...
that would be interesting a some people for sure. But damn the backlash that it could bring if you share some strong takes....
like TTB is a great spell
and stuff like that 😄
sharp falcon
lol
meager granite
oh wait ...
sharp falcon
RTB and CTO were where ER and Resounding are now, in an old version of specifically rogue trees, for practical purposes it never existed but it was an idea on paper briefly
oak sky
Dont go shitting on ttb in front of him or it might suddenly become a 10000% increase
sharp falcon
Dont go shitting on ttb in front of him or it might suddenly become a 10000% inc...
I have very many hours in D3, great game
you did just give me an idea though
meager granite
Dont go shitting on ttb in front of him or it might suddenly become a 10000% inc...
one man can hope that with enough shitting, the holy light might bring us change
sharp falcon
not sharing until i think about it more though =p
oak sky
Ttb doesnt need to go away if it can be worked into something more interesting
sharp falcon
kind of caught up in and related to something else i'm working on atm
meager granite
TTB changed to increase nature damage done byt 10000% for 20 sec
meager granite
Ttb doesnt need to go away if it can be worked into something more interesting
If it has different effect, then it's not TTB as we know it.
it would need to change drastically so that it changes current shiv gameplay. We just send it on CD just like we did with TB back in the days. Current TTB increases its damage, but would have 0 impact at all on gameplay.
Not an easy task
oak sky
Any kind of passive shiv increase could still be a faithful version of ttb tbh
Or at least fulfill the same role
Shiv now does more amp, shiv does more damage, shiv affects bleeds, shiv gives envenom and rupture 100% chance to drop a poison bomb
meager granite
In the end, we all know that Realz wants us to take the tea and TTB
oak sky
Think he just wants them to be strong, viable, useful
open otter
What if TTB worked like a small From The Shadows from our artifact weapon. Your shiv starts shooting out tiny toxic blades at them 
oak sky
Yeah that would work too
Theres any number of things that at least imo would be more interesting than just flat increasing shiv's damage
meager granite
making something strong is easy because of tuning. When i see ICarnage on the same row (which is for a different purpose/content), I am genuinely excited to play with it for various reason but mostly because it seems fun. On the other hand TTB seems very unfun and meh in comparison
spice spire
Improved envenom when
oak sky
Yeah thats the whole point kahoete
Finding a way to make this niche of "passive shiv talent" interesting
spice spire
But to that point, not every talent will be “sexy” TTB may just be the best ST and mid
Kinda like PB is most of the time
meager granite
if that talent has to change but be linked to shiv, it is mandatory that it changes the "send on CD" we currently have, else whats the point
oak sky
Pb is mid true (love the sound)
But again kingslayers choice node with ttb was talked about so maybe thats the solution, but ideally all talents are interesting, even passive ones
ebon lichen
What is the reason to play assassination over learning sub? Everyone wants me to swap to sub but i enjoy sin rogue?
chilly marsh
youre doing m+? or raid
spice spire
Well that’s because sin doesn’t do damage in m+ and is like 6x the work
In raid, assassination is more than fine though
ebon lichen
let me rephrase. Is sin good enough in m+ to do up to 20s decently so i can avoid having to learn another set of keybinds and playstyle? Im not trying to push 30s in m+. im just not that good
oak sky
Any spec can do 20s no trouble
grim tangle
holy priest pumps
ebon notch
Yeah a holy priest might do 8k going full damage
Ur dumb
I've seen moad do 10k overall while healing
Imagine how much you can do while intentionally pumping
oak sky
Im just typing you take this shit too serious
oak sky
My bad i dont play with moadmoad and see the limits where healer priest can go
Sue me for doing 1 weekly 15 each reset
spice spire
Making me feel like guy
ebon lichen
10k from a heals? wish my dps was that high
ebon notch
My bad i dont play with moadmoad and see the limits where healer priest can go
Bruh you think moadmoad plays with my dumb ass?
I've done like 2 keys with him ever
Last season
Just tune into his stream
He's an exceptional priest m+ healer
ebon notch
Ur vibing
spice spire
Bruh you think moadmoad plays with my dumb ass?
He should
gray crest
I was so upset, I was doing so well before those last 2 pulls
oak sky
we're leaderboard buddies now on jailer
And buddies we shall remain
ebon notch
He should
He tanked for me once on his Pala and I flamed him cause it was uh
Interesting
spice spire
Mf meant to roll holy
oak sky
Oxis lucky i cloaked off my 3 buff in p3 or we wouldnt be buddies 💅
spice spire
Oxis lucky i cloaked off my 3 buff in p3 or we wouldnt be buddies 💅
You can’t roll a 3 buff silly 🙂 and you’re the wrong spec 🙂
oak sky
Im gonna say it
gusty mirage
first off
oak sky
Logs dont matter
gusty mirage
why you gotta hurt my feelings like that
😦
I slayed a warlock getting fed PI
does that count for anything?
spice spire
Yes
oak sky
Yes
spice spire
You’ve defeated the dps menace this tier
gusty mirage
spice spire
And you deserve praise
spice spire
You raid next week yeah?
Because it looks like cleaning up anduin can break top 5 at least
oak sky
Anduin is off all stars
gusty mirage
everything outside of andy
I have to fix prototype
in order to "fix" my shit
so
uh
hard pass
spice spire
You’re a casual 50 with a green prototype parse tho. That’s unironically nuts
oak sky
I dont know if im getting a reclear or not
And my gear is so bad that i cant compete for rank 1s
spice spire
Oh that’s a green sub
Not even a kill on sin
It was a weird season
First season I didn’t step foot in mythic raid
oak sky
spice spire
Because I wasn’t there for almost 2 months
gusty mirage
You’re a casual 50 with a green prototype parse tho. That’s unironically nuts
casual 50 with no sin parse on pantheon
ebon notch
Lords + lihuvim (idk what’s on all stars LMAO) then?
Ye idk reaching top 10 with a 90 on 2 bosses is kinda weird
But the input lag I get on lords is just ridiculous
And I haven't figured out the best way to play lihuvim yet
Need to do log review
spice spire
Also if I was seeing today’s raid, Cev went sicko mode (except rygelon)
strange python
And I haven't figured out the best way to play lihuvim yet
Cache.
Not having cache and trying to parse this tier feels so fucking bad. Shit I don't have sigil either
gusty mirage
Ye idk reaching top 10 with a 90 on 2 bosses is kinda weird
okay dude call me out like that wtf
patent hare
wait does anyone know when the dev is updating the assa tree?
steel ridge
Realz is doing rogue and demon hunter?
faint harness
Yep
Well from what i understand he has ownership/responsibility over those 2. He might still help with other trees as well, no idea
patent hare
ngl assa tree is rly well made so far
was just hoping before the alpha that kingsbane would be coming back with old vendetta from legion
now on 
he adds kingsbane
faint harness
Lots of people want this and that added and i can Imagine there is a lot of shit to filter through. But the kingsbane shout has been quite consistent, so thats a good thing
patent hare
also this choice after deathmark is sooo lackluster
faint harness
Not all talents are homeruns
patent hare
yee but like it feels painful to pick
ivory rock
do you guys think assassination will be the play to start df?
patent hare
atleast from a pvpers perspectivbe
faint harness
do you guys think assassination will be the play to start df?
If atrophic poison is assa only, yes. If not, tuning will decide
patent hare
like thats how i would build the tree
gusty mirage
now on <:HOPIUM:870816968373071882> he adds kingsbane
what if I told you that's something realz was looking at?
faint harness
uuuh you have enough duration already
But why not amp poison? If you dislike ttk, i dont get it
patent hare
ivory rock
If atrophic poison is assa only, yes. If not, tuning will decide
i also mean for m+
faint harness
i also mean for m+
Nobody knows
patent hare
in pvp wound, then deadly with slow and mind numbing
oak sky
M+ is a massive question mark since it depends on utility and utility other classes bring and who does the most damage and what type of damage is best and the dungeons
patent hare
m+ most likely its gonna be if assa can deal a tton of dmg then it could work but if outlaws benefit outweighs prob not
faint harness
Bro its build 2 of alpha
oak sky
Theres no real way of knowing anything
faint harness
Stop thinking about meta picks for an expansion thats 6 months away
patent hare
am just thinking about current tree and how it could be affecting the pick rates if not much is changed
oak sky
Theres gonna be changes, that much is confirmed
faint harness
am just thinking about current tree and how it could be affecting the pick rates...
Well numbers do matter
patent hare
ye thats true
faint harness
You can think ur spec plays like a god in m+ but it does 0 dmg. Still not being brought for the highest keys.
patent hare
also has the dev thought about the nerf for this being capping the max amount of damage gained
oak sky
Its naturally capped by the talents you can take so I'm not positive that would be a great solution since it would reduce the value of anything past the cap
oak sky
Yeah something like that
patent hare
wait no 20%
faint harness
Its more during cds right
patent hare
22
faint harness
Cus you duplicate bleeds etc
oak sky
It just would probably be lame if your build was based around hitting the cap and nothing past that
patent hare
yee it would be lame
since you get 10% from just having kidney bleed, stepsis, aoe bleed and 4 poisons
wait no
2 extra poisons i mean
oak sky
Yeah push its like 2 lethal 2 nonlethal deathmark ct sepsis doomblade w garrote 2 rupture, and maybe the 2 lethals double too
patent hare
i feel like having a hard cap at like 12% (?) maybe would be good
so you dont go out of your way to go for a cap
faint harness
The % increased is probably more likely to get nerfed
oak sky
Yeah i agree
faint harness
So the gameplay around maximizing it is still there
patent hare
hmm
faint harness
In what world is that true if you just said you can get 18% with 2%
oak sky
You would get
faint harness
Even then its more right, 5% is just the poisons and doomblade
patent hare
since do you pick 4 poisons in pve
faint harness
At least 7%
faint harness
I mean the node is sick even at 1%
oak sky
Yep
patent hare
hmm would doomblade count as a bleed since i remember it not affecting venomous wounds in slands
patent hare
did i just not notice? 
faint harness
Huh?
patent hare
like in slands
faint harness
What
oak sky
Its not only vw bleeds that do lethal dose
patent hare
at one point doomblade bleed i think didnt affect venomous wounds
oak sky
Its all bleeds and poisons
faint harness
Why are we talking about shadowlands
patent hare
so does the game count it as a bleed for that
true pelican
venomous wounds only works on garrote/rupture
faint harness
Thats not even remotely the same thing
faint harness
Why would you put doomblade next to lethal dose in the tree
If it didnt work
There is clearly a synergy reason behind it
Same with sepsis
patent hare
i didnt remember it only affected rupture internal bleeding and garrote
also i feel like sepsis is a dead talent
faint harness
Venomous wounds does not decide what is a bleed or not. Stuff doesnt work with vw because it would be broken
patent hare
does assa bleeds snapshot
true pelican
also i feel like sepsis is a dead talent
that just depends on tuning
patent hare
it needs to be omega broken or have the other talents just not matter right now i feel like
also i dont think ill ever pick seal fate as assa bcs of how far the talent is down a tree that doesnt benefit me as much as other trees
also recuperator just doesnt feel good at all to spec into when cut to the chase is 2 points and optional
patent hare
yea just it feels bad pressing slice atleast currently if you dont keep your slice up with cttc
is there a way to give feedback to the dev?
faint harness
He reads stuff in here from time to time. The most official way is through the wow forums.
faint harness
And yes, they do read the official forums if your post is actually thoughtful and not incoherent whining
patent hare
ngl ive never used hte forums ive only seen those weird forum videos so dont know what its like
faint harness
I mean, hate the wow forums if you want. But its the official communication route for the devs
faint harness
Not sure about that one actually, i would post on NA forums despite playing on EU, but that might just be superstition
marble hemlock
Well, the thing about providing feedback is that you need to wanna do it out of passion for the game, not because you secretly hope that someone will read it, react to it and implement it. 99,9% of feedback will not be acted on, but that doesn't mean it isn't being heard. Just don't expect anything to come from it, but feel good about the fact that you did your part to try to improve the game 🙂
faint harness
Ye exactly
marble hemlock
If it's good feedback, someone will read it. Whether that is a dev, or other community members who will then echo your good feedback, so more voices say the same thing, it all plays a small but important role in improving the game.
patent hare
no like i was about to whip out a big notepad and go over the talents that look to be great and which feel not so good from around a 2300 assa rogue pvper
marble hemlock
Sounds awesome. I'd just post it in whatever rogue feedback thread is currently active/that you have access to
faint harness
Cant test them even if you had alpha
patent hare
true
faint harness
But you can still give your opinion on the trees from a purely conceptual viewpoint
patent hare
one thing is clear, cut to the chase feels like not so great of a talent to talent into
especially being 2 point talent
for it to work well
faint harness
I have kinda felt the same when making an assa build
2 points that sort of feel mandatory for the flow of the spec
patent hare
ye and because of that recuperator just feels yucky to have to spec into to get my survivability talent in pvp
since i wont have slice up much
also for sub it will heal just 5%
and i dont know about outlaw since not 100% how its thing works
faint harness
also for sub it will heal just 5%
Why?
patent hare
premediation gives 10 seconds of slice and you dont often press slice if youre not running away
i guess it works for sub
just works the worst for assa
also what does this mean with stealth poisons
faint harness
Gone i assume
patent hare
wait where
faint harness
Start of the tree, middle row
patent hare
if so thats a really good change
faint harness
It wasnt named stealth poisons
patent hare
i can actually get to tiny toxic blade now
faint harness
Is that something you want
patent hare
if its gonna be a choice node with kingsbane
patent hare
and if he nerfs lethal does to 1% making it probably a 1 point node i could even spec in 2 points into cut to the chase
since currently i have to pick maim and mangle for damage to get to the last part of the tree because of cut to the chase being 2 point node
i feel like assa would just be a bit too fun if those changes i mentioned are made
also depends a lot if internal bleedings gonna do any damage or i should just spec out of it
this is if venomous wounds is moved up there
faint harness
I dont think lethal dose would just lose a point
patent hare
ye prob
make it 0,5%
so you have to commit 2 points
wait its 3 seconds not 2 seconds extendon on cttc on live
hmm
ye that talent just doesnt look appealing at all
wait no 2 seconds might be enough right now playing with 3 on live looks like 2 would still be enough
patent hare
nooo i was typing an esay and i accidentally deleted
shouldve done it in a group with me just in it
or a notepad
obtuse robin
F
thin trout
Sylvannas dagger again yey
timid cloud
We can just buy it instantly, yay!
limber lion
instantly is a bit of a stretch xd
vestal wren
20/15/10 would probably be 4.5-5 weeks
timid cloud
I think that was what they wanted the projected 3 coins at. Since that’s the nerf.
I believe it was said in a blue post.
faint harness
could also just loot it
timid cloud
TRUE
faint harness
burnt latch
Good morning assa gamers
oak sky
warcieft
night delta
20/15/10 would probably be 4.5-5 weeks
I mean, 20 bosses is as soon as week 2
And 15 more at week 4
vestal wren
yes
night delta
Or you don't plan on clearing NM ?
vestal wren
huh
you have ~10 unique bosses per week
so 20/15/10 would give your 45 unique boss kills
night delta
I'd assume each quest counts uniqueness separately though
So when you clear quest 1 and go back to CN in week 4 normal CN bosses would count for quest 2
vestal wren
you have 2 systems
the coins from the boss kills, what boss you kill the boss is not relevant
night delta
For the upgrade system, yes ?
vestal wren
no
the coins are for exchanging items
the upgrade system is 20 kills on the difficultly
strange python
So to upgrade to Mythic (from Heroic) - you need 20 kills on Mythic (or on Heroic)
night delta
Oh I thought you were talking about that, since the upgrade system is through tokens looted on bosses
so wait, the quests for buying items don't track automatically ? But through a looted item aswell ?
kind talon
You get a quest that rewards you a token at the end which is currency for a weapon or a trinket
The quest is just a normal quest that you will have to accept
night delta
I got that, I guess I was just confused by how fuu said it would work
the point I wanted to make is that first sylvanas dagger will come as soon as week 2, and the other at week 4 (or hopefully week 2 too 😎 )
(that is, if I understood the system correctly)
vestal wren
So to upgrade to Mythic (from Heroic) - you need 20 kills on Mythic (or on Heroi...
upgrade from normal or heroic to mythic, you need to kill 20 mythic bosses
night delta
yeah the heroic step is not mandatory
strange python
I honestly don't know how tf i farmed exalted with Enlightened...doing it on a second toon seems ridiculous
slim estuary
!guides
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue
ebon notch
okay dude call me out like that wtf
I woke up to 3 pings in this discord and got scared lmao
kind talon
And I haven't figured out the best way to play lihuvim yet
Hit the boss
Attack
Kill
vestal wren
I woke up to 3 pings in this discord and got scared lmao
not enough pings?
ebon notch
Apparently
kind talon
@ebon notch
kind talon
Apparently
Attack
Lihuvim DR when he’s coming back down from his nap upstairs is removed yeah?
limber lion
Also if I was seeing today’s raid, Cev went sicko mode (except rygelon)
I got brutally betrayed and murdered by our DH and was tilted beyond belief after that lmao
spice spire
You still fragged man
kind talon
💀
spice spire
Couple gold parses nbd
ebon notch
I was doing my best to calm him down
spice spire
Have you gotten a rygelon dagger yet?
limber lion
I have to fix prototype
Just play Necro/Zoldyck, you'll parse automatically without worry
ebon notch
limber lion
Have you gotten a rygelon dagger yet?
No, and I'm not gonna be here next week so no Rygelerino Daggerinos for me 
limber lion
Maybe Season 4 will be more lucrative
spice spire
Wait Cev, what’s your all star rank?
spice spire
Because 1 was taken over by anonymous yesterday 
kind talon
💀
ebon notch
Because 1 was taken over by anonymous yesterday <:kekl:753617830296944660>
It was me
limber lion
It's true. I got PI, but I also sim 1k less than Fotm
ebon notch
I bought all the externals in the raid
kind talon
You played outlaw yesterday
spice spire
limber lion
Soooooo fair deal? Xd
bleak sky
fair deal yes
ebon notch
I made a Chinese run
spice spire
kind talon
ebon notch
Soooooo fair deal? Xd
YO POST YOUR EXTERNAL SIM
bleak sky
daps need some external juice
kind talon
You had Chinese player piloting your acc?
limber lion
No but for realskies externals are dumb
ebon notch
Nahhhh no fake news
kind talon
@ebon notch ?
ebon notch
You had Chinese player piloting your acc?
Fuck no
limber lion
I was saying that to Daps after Skolex
bleak sky
he needs nocco + gingi juice + pi + fairies + kindred + focus magic
kind talon
Which externals did you get cev
ebon notch
he needs nocco + gingi juice + pi + fairies + kindred + focus magic
H-haha
limber lion
Not very exciting
ebon notch
