assassination

[oak sky]

Sepsis is wack isnt it

[bleak sky]

sepsis the bleed poison and none at the same time special

[balmy condor]

this has been almost decade of bad tooltip writing

[sharp falcon]

like, it should EITHER mean "weapon poisons" or "poison damage from rogue skills", and it is neither

[marble hemlock]

assa rogue whitelists for a bunch of mechanics are very... whack and inconsistent. its been the bane of our existence for a long time

[sharp falcon]

I will try to rally towards standardizing "weapon poisons" for things specific to it

[marble hemlock]

[oak sky]

Tooltip changes are underrated buffs bro

[bleak sky]

CLARITY

CLARITY FOR EVERYONE

[main solar]

The greatest rogue buff in all of DF

[dark token]

My zoldyck working on envenom dreams are dying but it's worth it for clarity

[balmy condor]

who cares about carnage, we can finally understand our abilities without having to memorize interactions from community log diving for 3 hours every patch

[sharp falcon]

uncertain about whether or not i want to clarify rogue-only on other things like "poison damage" to mean "NO NOT TRINKETS OR ENVIRONMENT DAMAGE, LOOKING AT YOU, THROWING SPEAR"

[balmy condor]

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jb9N1/c02883b46c.png

when whitelists look like this

its easy to forget a few

[loud light]

good ol slaughter poison

[dark token]

This is confusing among specs in general like subs shadow dmg amp or fire mage amp

[sharp falcon]

i'd prefer most modifiers be unstated / understood to mean "Rogue stuff"

[marble hemlock]

love how theres a bunch of spells in there that no longer exist too

[sharp falcon]

without having to say it... but idk

[balmy condor]

"does shiv work on phial" is still one of the questions we put in the FaQ btw because it's nature damage but not all nature damage :)

[dark token]

I don't think shyv ever increased trinket nature dmg for example, although it reads increases all nature dmg

[balmy condor]

cause ya know

:)

[oak sky]

#notallnaturedamage

[marble hemlock]

ours never did. but firemage mastery used to improve all firedamage, same as affli lock for shadow

[loud light]

I think "poisons" and "poison damage" are more clearly rogue abilities but people get confused when you say nature damage

[marble hemlock]

which caused some major balancing issues for certain trinkets

in legion

[faint harness]

that spaceship was kinda cool (:

[balmy condor]

oh also the thing about this is also with aura buffs, we know it's "abilities" but every time an aura buff comes through we always get people who go "oh so not auto attacks? well that's weird"

[bleak sky]

but whispyr does shiv work on Bottled Flayedwing Toxin? because it's a new poison applied on your weapons please answer

[balmy condor]

which I know isn't your vault

but like

every time

[marble hemlock]

did you see tho whispyr

[balmy condor]

yes but only on the tooltip that isn't bugged

[marble hemlock]

were going abck to 100% aura!

[balmy condor]

I did see

[dark token]

But at the same time I do wish all rogue nature dmg were treated the same. 100% makes sense that nothing should effect trinkets

Enevnom/poison bomb/weapon poisons all working differently on different skills is pretty weird

[marble hemlock]

some poisons are just built diffy

[chilly marsh]

I advocate for thematic trinkets working with class buffs, but I know I'm alone xD.

[marble hemlock]

you (pb) vs the poison she tells you not to worry about (dp)

[dark token]

Bottled flaywing toxin + phial + lethal dose

[faint harness]

just becomes a balance issue and forces you into x element of damage is good for you, lex sub

[balmy condor]

idk if you're able to fix it either @sharp falcon but a long standing bug from Bottled Flayedwing Toxin is that none of the tooltips match the damage it does.

It has 3 tooltips:

1. on the item
2. the buff on your character
3. the debuff on your target

and they're all different, and none of them actually report the correct damage that it does

in case that's not on anyone's radar

been in since beta shadowlands

:)

[marble hemlock]

think blizz has made a lot of efforts to make amps not work with non-class based powers. ghostly strike and deeper daggies wre kind of outliers in that sense, and im still not sure if that was 100% intentional or just oversight

[dark token]

Sounds like an intern shaped problem

[sharp falcon]

god

[balmy condor]

idk what the problem is shaped, but it's been bugging me for almost 2 years now

[sharp falcon]

On the one hand, I want to engage with this conversation whole-heartedly

[chilly marsh]

I get the concerns, but if you think about the rpg aspect nothing more fitting than a fire mage using a fire empowered trinket. or a rogue using a poison trinket

[marble hemlock]

i.e. symbols/dance/ns amp all used to work with trinkets in legion. they removed that going into bfa cause it was kinda broken with draught of souls or moonglaives, for example

[sharp falcon]

On the other hand, it will break me

I was one of the foremost-responsible for Hearthstone card tooltips for years, which is admittedly an entirely different problem

[balmy condor]

is it world of warcraft spaghetti

[bleak sky]

hearthstone tooltip

[dark token]

I can imagine devving on new expac stuff and getting every bug with current expac dmd because you're the only dev that is active in discord at the moment

[bleak sky]

just ping scarizard

which I guess would be the appropriate dev to ping, he's an item designer right?

[dark token]

This is why I let my PM talk to users for me, it's scary

[faint harness]

he left rogue disc

[bleak sky]

ik

[oak sky]

Doesnt surprise me

[bleak sky]

dm him directrly

[dark token]

Send him mail to his address

Fix bug now

[balmy condor]

send him in-game mail to his DK

(don't

[sharp falcon]

but yeah, I have some strong opinions about tooltips that are better I keep to myself because it's too big a crusade to go on as it relates to WoW and I don't care enough to consume my life over it. WoW has a lot of history and an intended style but there are also a lot of people who have worked on the game and it's basically impossible to coordinate tightly without giving it undue attention tbh

[faint harness]

just ask max, he goes to dinners with the man

[balmy condor]

you're a real(z) one, candid but still diplomatic, big love

[dark token]

Eh even games with historically good tooltips get ambiguous/inconsistent at points

[sharp falcon]

doesn't mean I can't make some of the ones within my sphere of influence just that much slightly better... so yeah, thanks for the heads up and don't feel bad pointing me at rogue-related ones especially, pvp-related ones in general but slightly less so, and anything else depends on what i happen to be working on in the moment =p

Like some of the other stuff I've done is all the Kyrian covenant soulbind traits from 9.1 (not 9.0), and a lot of the PvP talents from the PvP talent rework (alongside 2 other designers, basically 1/3 each)

[chilly marsh]

you're also working in the pvp talents realz?

[sharp falcon]

not at this moment

[marble hemlock]

og pvp player not doing pvp, smh

[chilly marsh]

and i just asked when you replied xD

[bleak sky]

kyrian soulbind: love bronn

[oak sky]

I would imagine rogue and dh are taking a lot of time huh

[bleak sky]

bronn is a real G

[marble hemlock]

fuck bronn

[echo geyser]

realz are u from the pvp team SK?

[balmy condor]

HEY!

[sharp falcon]

very lots, and has been

[balmy condor]

what did bron do to you

[echo geyser]

[marble hemlock]

knock mobs back into sanguine

[dark token]

Rogues are lucky we get the good devs

[sharp falcon]

yes, SK Gaming sponsored for about 2.5 years

[bleak sky]

[balmy condor]

bron's a homeboy

[bleak sky]

big gamer

[echo geyser]

cool

[dark token]

Ww stuff drops 1 week before release and gets fixed 3 months into tier

[marble hemlock]

dont think we ever played each other

[oak sky]

Thanks for doing your due diligence and respecting everyones opinion

[ebon notch]

Wtf he has hands

I love him

@balmy condor can we keep him

[dark token]

Playing ww is lottery on whether your spec will be ignored in a good or a bad state

[ebon notch]

He's a unicorn

[sharp falcon]

I was mostly TBC/Wrath era for the professional PvP'ing

[chilly marsh]

man i like bron... i just wished his proc was something like : ITS READY use when you want!

[marble hemlock]

only played sk when it was xom/another/hydra

[sharp falcon]

yeah, SK had multiple teams, I was "SK US"

they were, obviously, "SK EU"

[echo geyser]

@marble hemlock did u ever play against secko or pookz?

[marble hemlock]

ah yeah true

[sharp falcon]

we were competitors

[marble hemlock]

pookz definitely, secko i dont remember

[echo geyser]

[gusty mirage]

old man

[marble hemlock]

i did have dinner with neilyo at WWI though, was pog

[dark token]

Did blizzard mention how pvp talents would work next expac? A third tree like class/spec?

[sharp falcon]

Pookz was my teammate briefly, had a good run

1 MLG win and 1 blizzard regionals win, a near-miss at Blizzcon (could have won, really though, hair's edge) but got 4th

The blizzcon loss is like a keep-you-up-at-night haunting of a memory

[oak sky]

Tough

[marble hemlock]

improved clickz was too strong in tbc

[sharp falcon]

There's a story there, I'll save it for another day

[marble hemlock]

and nihilum

actual gods

[sharp falcon]

I won the last technically-TBC tournament that took place during Wrath prepatch, before that I just remember watching tournaments and thinking, "I'm better than most of these players" (and I was right)

[marble hemlock]

[sharp falcon]

no sponsor, team flew ourselves to Philly and won =p

[steel ridge]

actual chad

[sharp falcon]

that was with Toez

[balmy condor]

ty stealing this

[marble hemlock]

yw

its great

[echo geyser]

u are great

[marble hemlock]

you too ram :3

[balmy condor]

I agree

[marble hemlock]

[loud light]

+1, just had somebody asking this the other day and realized I have no idea- same pvp talent menu as we have now, or a separate tree, or no pvp talents at all? don't remember seeing anything yet

[marble hemlock]

i always wanted honor talents, but for m+ 😦

[sharp falcon]

pvp talents will work the same, there will be a few changes but no big overhaul to the details of what talents are available

[loud light]

cool cool, overhauling one talent system is probably enough for now

[echo geyser]

@balmy condor did u buy dragonflight pre-purchase?

[sharp falcon]

some PvP talents straight up dont work anymore with the changes, some have been stolen for the new class and spec trees. If a spec is left with too few choices as a result of that, they'll get enough new ones to still have a reasonable range of choices to pick from

[balmy condor]

I did not

[sharp falcon]

but no big overhaul, same system for the most part

[gusty mirage]

[balmy condor]

but now that I saw the talent trees

[echo geyser]

i have a theory that u cant get alpha if u didnt buy it

[marble hemlock]

nah

[balmy condor]

cope

[marble hemlock]

its not true

but i also bought it

after i didnt get alpha

[gusty mirage]

scammazed

[balmy condor]

I'm probably buying it this weekend just because I'm excited

but yeh

[marble hemlock]

i just didnt wanna buy into the hype on release. but now with the trees, its worth the preorder this early

[gusty mirage]

apologize for shaming me then

[balmy condor]

exactly

[echo geyser]

ill buy it cause i saw cool trinkets

[balmy condor]

you bought it before the rogue trees were a banger

[marble hemlock]

whoever made these trees should take a commission or smth

[gusty mirage]

because I asked my FRIENDS if they were playing it, and you all said yes. And I just want to play games with my friends

[sharp falcon]

yeah, pvp'ers also get a lot of content and gameplay out of core changes in expansions, especially true for this one with all the new talent trees. PvP specific content of any significance is more likely to fall in a .1 or .2 patch than a .0 for that reason

[balmy condor]

yeh realz put a tip jar on your desk I'll swing by at some point

[sharp falcon]

lol no

[balmy condor]

[gusty mirage]

don't let him bring you any eggs

it's a trap

[balmy condor]

THEY HAVE NEVER FROZEN BEFORE STOP

I turned down my fridge

it's fine

[gloomy knoll]

[sharp falcon]

I can't feel good about taking credit for a small piece of a very large game, and even then this piece is a group effort even if i'm the one who has to be responsible for it

[ebon notch]

You froze your eggs?

Whos the lucky guy

[gusty mirage]

your mom

[balmy condor]

I took an egg out of my fridge

[bleak sky]

listen it may be small but it makes people happy, but props to the team doing rogue overall

[balmy condor]

and it was just frozen solid

[ebon notch]

Confusing but I'm sure the writers can make it work

[balmy condor]

idk how it happened

[marble hemlock]

AND THEN HE MICROWAVED IT AND SMASHED IT OPEN ON THE COUNTER

[ebon notch]

What

[frank nest]

Well take credit for being awesome and communicating with us. Not all the classes are so lucky. 🙂

[ebon notch]

Are you an animal or something

[sharp falcon]

oh don't worry I'll go back to lurking again eventually

[gloomy knoll]

need a go fund me to send whispyr to culinary class

[bleak sky]

no lurking, we need +1 to bully daps

[balmy condor]

I can cook fine

[ebon notch]

Or prison

[balmy condor]

fuck you guys

[gloomy knoll]

lol

[ebon notch]

Either works

[marble hemlock]

you literally took a video of it

[ebon notch]

I bet he microwaves water too

[marble hemlock]

like its a tiktok

[sharp falcon]

There's value in this now though, so here I am. I do look over discussions often though, just in general, been a lurker for a long time

[balmy condor]

people wanted to see

[gloomy knoll]

i'd say it's more that feedback is actually being taken into consideration instead of laughed at

[gusty mirage]

@sharp falcon it may seem like a very small piece of the game, but after SL alpha & beta it's nice to not feel like an afterthought. You being in here and communicating with us has excited a lot of people, and rightfully so

[gloomy knoll]

like granted not everything happens because a lot of the times feedback doesn't align with internal stuff or just is impossible etc but

[ebon notch]

@sharp falcon has skip dm'd you yet

[gloomy knoll]

more often in the past feedback has been either ridiculed or completely ignored or at least it feels that way

[bleak sky]

skip just found out he is the dev

[gloomy knoll]

so it's a nice change of pace

[bleak sky]

dm coming soon

[sharp falcon]

I worked on some rogue specific stuff at one point and came in here to chat and get more info but I didn't want to reveal what I was working on cuz the time wasn't right and I also didn't want to get inundated with a bunch of unrelated feedback, because I had limited time to work on that thing

[ebon notch]

It's a rite of passage

[sharp falcon]

(it was the SBS rework)

[gloomy knoll]

i liked sbs

[gusty mirage]

[gloomy knoll]

good ability

[marble hemlock]

sephuz has left a big hole i think, and people around here were clamoring for that level of communication as well as understanding of the class since he left the wow team.

[gloomy knoll]

deathspike crushed me

[sharp falcon]

pre-rework? =x

[gloomy knoll]

i liked it on live

the one i played with whichever one that was lol

in nathria

[ebon notch]

I want old deathspike

I wanna do 100k per pack like warlock

[gusty mirage]

you play outlaw rogue now and it's their fault @ebon notch

[sharp falcon]

I think it was like... 9.0.5? Maybe? Or was it 9.1 that it got changed, I actually don't remember now

[gusty mirage]

so you're the enemy now

[ebon notch]

Whose fault

[gusty mirage]

9.0.5 was the first rework and it was huge

[gloomy knoll]

ye it was fun

[bleak sky]

I don't remember how sbs worked

[marble hemlock]

it doesnt

is the short answer

[sharp falcon]

it did like 30% weapon damage

[marble hemlock]

are you responsible for the change in how it generates CP as well?

[sharp falcon]

and it didn't give a combo point on first cast

yes

[gloomy knoll]

playing sbs sin on denny was prob the best gameplay of the xpac for me

[marble hemlock]

it never worked like you intended 😦

[bleak sky]

are you responsible for sbs + tier set breaking PTR?

[sharp falcon]

well, i think it's still buggy LOL

[balmy condor]

(it still doesn't)

[sharp falcon]

but sometimes it works

no mina

[marble hemlock]

half the time it works all the time!

[gloomy knoll]

lol

[bleak sky]

[sharp falcon]

usually it bugs in players' favor though

[gusty mirage]

it's gotta be something server side, shame though because of how great sbs felt to press

[balmy condor]

we can blame scarizard for the PTR servers crashing I think

[sharp falcon]

yeah if you look at the script, it reads correct

[balmy condor]

cause he was the guy who said "A BLEED IS A BLEED"

[gusty mirage]

[gloomy knoll]

blasting full cp bonespikes p3 denny

good times

beneficial bug go brrr

[sharp falcon]

a bleed is a bleed but can you speed up infinity?

how can you shorten something that has no length? 🙂

[marble hemlock]

exsanguinating SBS until servers crashed

[balmy condor]

snapshotting looking like a real bitch now doesn't it

hate snapshot

[bleak sky]

more reason to riot against scarizard

[marble hemlock]

whispyr didnt play in rune of reorigination days

[ebon notch]

Ohnononono

[bleak sky]

[marble hemlock]

or nefarian prog

[sharp falcon]

scar is great btw

[balmy condor]

I'd like to counter with infinity divided by 2 is still infinity

[gusty mirage]

is this a pun?

[balmy condor]

we love scarizard

[gloomy knoll]

dk doesn't

[balmy condor]

we just like making jokes too

well DK is a bozo

[gusty mirage]

dk doesn't like us either

[gloomy knoll]

lmao

fair

[faint harness]

i don't love his trinkets in 9.2

[balmy condor]

he'll say the entire game is shit because sub isn't a good spec for 1 patch

[gusty mirage]

especially considering he didn't play the dark ages of sub

[gloomy knoll]

bfa didn't happen

[faint harness]

this is slander

[bleak sky]

yes

[gloomy knoll]

just blocked that out of my memory

[bleak sky]

glad you got it oxi

[ebon notch]

Don't tell some players like that

[faint harness]

you know its not about spec strength, or i hope you do

[bleak sky]

this is why I love you

[balmy condor]

there is no sub in be-eff-ay

or something

[gloomy knoll]

yea dk will play sub regardless

[sharp falcon]

I think I'm still playing an arena game in BFA where no one can die, what's happening now is probably a fever dream

[gloomy knoll]

he just wants it to be fun

[gloomy knoll]

infinity dampening

the dark mirror mind prison

*black mirror

[marble hemlock]

just gimme back tbc cc chains

or 9sec rvs kidney

[harsh anchor]

How'd you react with so many so fast

[balmy condor]

cc chains actively keep me away from playing pvp

[balmy condor]

fastest in the west, just ask my gf

[marble hemlock]

whispyr stunned irl from cc chains

[gloomy knoll]

[balmy condor]

I load into pvp, and then I actively do not play the game for half the arena

and then I'm supposed to derive fun from that

and do it again

no shot

that's psychotic

[marble hemlock]

yeah it can get frustrating. still feeling that in lost ark pvp atm

[balmy condor]

sitting in a cyclone for 3 years watching your healer get gang banged is not my definition of fun

[marble hemlock]

if your team doesnt peel and you get chain cced for like 10seconds

its pain

yeah idk, i always loved how hard it was to set up proper cross CCs in tbc, nailing down a healer for 30+ seconds

[balmy condor]

holy that sounds so cancerous get me out

[marble hemlock]

most fun i had was against sv hunter+rdruid in 2s, game lasted 15minutes, i was cced for 14minutes and 40 seconds of that. felt good.

while they desperately tried to kill my druid but couldnt

[balmy condor]

the more you talk the more I think pvp is just a playground for masochists

[marble hemlock]

i mean it was hilarious

but also kinda cringe

i could do something every 2 minutes when i had cloak, but usually id just get scatter trapped after anyway and then id be stuck again for 2min

[oak sky]

Yo whispyr did you say something about giving realz something in a tip jar

[marble hemlock]

good shit

[oak sky]

I can drop it off for you

I dont live far from blizz

[faint harness]

[bleak sky]

I'm calling 911

[oak sky]

[bleak sky]

what's the number for 911 tell me right now

[marble hemlock]

as if agreon would leave the house

[oak sky]

I went to the climbing gym today

Me go jim

:)

[bleak sky]

good shit

[oak sky]

And im going to hawaii tomorrow

Thats not my house

[marble hemlock]

you mean the jungle jim on the playground?

or is it?

idk

you americans are weird

[oak sky]

Yeah its gym

[marble hemlock]

ah okay

yeah i thought it was some weird deviation

from the original

[oak sky]

Not as far as i know

Bone apple tea!

[marble hemlock]

ye

[bleak sky]

I hear hawaiians love tourists

[magic sedge]

Can anyone confirm how shadowdance, subterfuge, scale with stuff like more crit or no garrote cd after stealth? And does cold blood work for rupture?

Seems op af

[oak sky]

[balmy condor]

Dance currently works with everything that says “in stealth”

Subterfuge only allows the use of stealth abilities after breaking stealth in the 10.0 tree

Cold blood should work with bleeds

[magic sedge]

So 50% more crit in dance?

Seems a bit to nutty

[balmy condor]

30%

But yes

That’s why dance is currently broken

[balmy condor]

Ty yes this

[magic sedge]

Ok so extremely likely to get netfed/reworked

[balmy condor]

Correct

[magic sedge]

As long as they keep the option to use shadow dance garrote for every pack i'm happy. Then we could literally have good consisted aoe dmg. But 6 sec garrote silence in combo with 50% longer envoker cd also seems weird. 9 sec aoe silence and 9 sec Single kidney kek

[oak sky]

@bleak sky i got 5 episodes of saul downloaded to watch on my fligjt

[bleak sky]

goated flight

[oak sky]

Yep

Finish off season 4 start season 5

[bleak sky]

I need to go back to watching it

[steel ridge]

saul is great

[bleak sky]

sin is looking pretty good for M+ with the current tree

carnage is a very welcome addition

[languid crag]

So question, do rogues have any throughput talents that are like effectively a 0dps increase?

[balmy condor]

What

Throughput talents would imply more than 0dps

[languid crag]

In 10.0

Well... you would think that

... unless you're a shadow priest

[balmy condor]

Do you mean talents that affect spells that you can avoid?

Like you take a talent but don’t have the skill?

[languid crag]

No no, talents that if you take increase your damage by a nearly meaningless amount

Like less than a half a percent

[balmy condor]

I guess that’s just tuning dependent

[steel ridge]

[balmy condor]

But right now I can’t think of anything

[languid crag]

[balmy condor]

Tiny toxic isn’t that great

Thistle probably ain’t great

But I don’t think there’s anything where it’s worthless

[languid crag]

Excellent

[balmy condor]

I guess fok talents in single target aren’t useful

But that sorta is expected

[languid crag]

Ye for sure

[oak sky]

good design

lol

aoe abilities st gain: b ad

[storm onyx]

CT being ST is flaggellation/tier/unity related; I really didn't think it would carry over as a ST finisher after this tier is done

[balmy condor]

Curiously enough though, CT was pretty competitive even without tier

[steel ridge]

Poison bomb is just that bad

[balmy condor]

CT was a conversation in 9.1 as well

[whole mason]

CT is a fine ST skill. only problem would be a finisher at its current place.

and some logic, like Shiv leading to CT

[brave gyro]

Personally, i like assa having even more bleeds to manage, i dont wanna go half-ass on ass-a - i want to go full ass...a

[storm onyx]

Ohm, I had missed that, I was away

[whole mason]

WADR, it seems swap DS and zoldyck and put KB below zoldyck makes the middle line more natural, putting DS and DTB to the left following poison/natural related and energy talents also makes it interesting.

[storm onyx]

PBomb needs a fix, like sticking to the target and XRange mobs etc. For example Tanks don't even see us proccing it when they move mobs. its not rendered for them even

Before nerf it had bigger area

Got nerfed due to Pvp

[whole mason]

Maybe reverse the design of Pbomb, put an empty bomb and fill it up with finishers to bomb

instead of a pool of green on the ground

[storm onyx]

Zoldyck is generally not a good power. Its very situational and depends on Grp/Raid comp, Event Design. Target ArmorRate, 30% HP/Time compression. It's very niche.

[whole mason]

yea, i agree. that's why i think that would be a good place for it to go. we spend certain points at middle, but not need to go to the bottom. and good synergy with both KB and twist the knife thing?

[toxic locust]

it's there because it's execute alongside blindside

probably won't move

[whole mason]

it's ok not move, blindside will be extremely situational anyway

if KB is returning, another reason to nerf lethal dose, right? KB is a poison

[marble hemlock]

its not a lethal poison. only your weapon poisons are.

[whole mason]

it says each poison, no?

[limber lion]

Each Lethal or Non-Lethal poison

Meaning poisons that are those exactly

So Deadly, Instant, Amp, Wound are lethals

[whole mason]

ok, thanks for clarifying.

[limber lion]

Numbing and Crippling are non-lethals

[obtuse robin]

what dooes this mean

[balmy condor]

It means that instead of sin doing 151% of baseline damage through the fifteen 5% buffs we got

It’s getting reset to 0

And we’re starting at a neutral point again

[obtuse robin]

im sure a very good thing

cool

[balmy condor]

it’s just clarity honestly

But it’s nice

[whole mason]

It should be a very good thing

[balmy condor]

Makes tuning slightly less head-achey

[obtuse robin]

my 30 % fok damg tho

[balmy condor]

Well it doesn’t change any damage

[obtuse robin]

[balmy condor]

The damage is identical

[obtuse robin]

ahh i get it now

[chilly marsh]

Now we can feel better when you go from 0 to 150% again 💩

[balmy condor]

Instead of 151% its the new baseline

Which is 100%

And then things are tuned

And we’ll see what happens then

[marble hemlock]

fifteen 5% buffs arent 51% tho

just saying

[balmy condor]

Yes it’s hyperbole

[chilly marsh]

I just wish we can stay without those buffs in DF

[marble hemlock]

yeah well

youre our sim god

if youre using hyperbole here

who is to believe your sims

[chilly marsh]

A solid class

When a spec need 50% + buff....

[marble hemlock]

tbf we didnt start SL with 100%

[chilly marsh]

Something already started wrong

We started sl with 21% no?

[obtuse robin]

time to pre order df for alpha access

[fleet anchor]

Don't know if this was fully enumerated rather than just talked around, but to be specific: Mastery, Zoldyck, Dashing Scoundrel, and (previously)Toxic Blade/Shiv all have ever so slightly different handling for poisons on retail. Not any of them are exactly the same, which is fun! 😄

Mastery affects: Weapon poisons, Envenom, Poison Bomb
Zoldyck affects: Weapon poisons, Poison Bomb
Shiv affects: Weapon poisons, Shiv, Envenom, Poison Bomb, Sepsis
Dashing affects: Weapon poisons, Poison Bomb, Envenom

So if this is something you wanted to standardize for the sake of player sanity, I'm sure it'd be very appreciated.

Bleeds have their own issues too (SBS was missing for a while, but is mostly fixed now. Although I think Sudden Fractures is still missing from some stuff.. but alas) but not as many as the whole Nature damage/poison stuff.

[marble hemlock]

SF can still be parried too

[balmy condor]

The term is deflected

[marble hemlock]

but i mean, thats gonna be gone with DF anyway so at this point

who cares

[balmy condor]

It’s a ranged projectile

[marble hemlock]

youre absolutely right, thanks for correcting me

sorry, i meant to say, i hate you

[fleet anchor]

Sudden Fractures is funny since it's a direct damage proc pretending to be a periodic tick with some fancy flags but that has some funny side-effects since it's not used very frequently.

[bleak sky]

Koji coming in hot with the late night feedback

[marble hemlock]

wdym

its 10am

time for me to go to sleep

[bleak sky]

What

[marble hemlock]

did i stutter?

[bleak sky]

Gn yerman prince

[marble hemlock]

thanks love

[bleak sky]

Oh so dashing does affect poison bomb monkaS

[balmy condor]

Yuh

It gives energy on ticks as well I think

[oak sky]

yeye dashing

lol realz is a fellow degen

[marble hemlock]

inb4 hes gonna block koji cause he had push notifications active and the ping woke him up

[fleet anchor]

lol even I don't have push notifications active for this server 😛

[oak sky]

probably a smart move

[fleet anchor]

Too many people in different time zones here

I wake up to Mystler and Fuu's 300 message backlog every morning in one of our channels

👀

[bleak sky]

Be a degen and stay online 24/7

Never worry about timezones

[oak sky]

gonna guess realz works at irvine blizzard and is pst

[fleet anchor]

Soon to be bed time for me though

[bleak sky]

Stop doxxing him agreon

[oak sky]

but who the hell knows

idk bro he could be a work from home gamer

or maybe they have other offices

[bleak sky]

WFH bless

[fleet anchor]

Haven't been in the office since March of 2020

Good times

[bleak sky]

Yo same

And I expect to never (forcefully)step foot in another one again

[fleet anchor]

I'll probably be back in the office part time at some point maybe this year but in no rush lol

[sharp falcon]

I will happily to look into this. My starting guidance is the spirit of the effect, and that will include trying to communicate that spirit as clearly and simply as possible which is another area that could improve. Next is the realities of the game which especially include balance, precedent, and player expectation. Last is my own design goals and intuition, which can potentially serve as a tiebreaker.

I certainly can't promise everything will be standardized perfectly, but maybe we can guide towards... better? Definitely something I'd like to do at least, but probably can't do a real pass on for a while (talking like... month or two)

[fleet anchor]

Yeah, was mostly just outlining for visibility and something for you to make a mental note of if you're feeling bored and want to look at it some day. Or layer on more poison stuff.

[sharp falcon]

One confounding element is new effects for skills that don't normally deal poison damage, but maybe now they do

[fleet anchor]

It's always sad seeing players get really excited about "I can do such and such and use Zold and have phat Envenoms during execute!" and we have to be like "sorry, no can do" 😛

[upbeat needle]

U work for blizz fam?

[sharp falcon]

like, should mastery, shiv amp, etc... work on the poison damage portion from "mutilate and auto attacks deal an extra X% of their damage as Poison"? etc

NO U

(yes)

[balmy condor]

You live under a rock fam?

[upbeat needle]

fuck u Whispyr

😦

MAYBE I DO

[balmy condor]

Love you too bud

[upbeat needle]

haven't been in chat all day

❤️ ❤️ ❤️

[balmy condor]

He’s been the very helpful dev doing the rogue talents

[upbeat needle]

Blizz employee in Ravenholdt is S-Tier

[fleet anchor]

Yeah definitely a good point wrt stuff like Vicious Venoms yeah, certainly makes things more complex

[upbeat needle]

This is sick

[balmy condor]

He’s been gathering feedback for the last couple of days

[upbeat needle]

I love to see the devs gathering community feedback

[balmy condor]

But I think you’re EU? So you don’t see him much

[obtuse robin]

best theorycrafters in the game with a rogue dev who plays rouge

[balmy condor]

He’s usually gone

[obtuse robin]

recipe for excellence

[balmy condor]

Bedge type situation

[fleet anchor]

Generally I think we don't expect "% of damage" stuff to work but that's always inconsistent too.

[upbeat needle]

FACTS

[fleet anchor]

e.g. Bleed amps don't work on Doomblade

[oak sky]

i would say i hope all the devs are doing this shit but idk if all the class communities can be trusted

[balmy condor]

I can tell you from the moaning of the other wowhead writers that not all the devs are doing this

[fleet anchor]

Since Doomblade is just a residual action off Mutilate, some stuff doesn't work. I think an attempt to make it work with the 2pc was made in PTR for 9.2.5 but I think there's actually "no way" (currently) to make a damage taken modifier work with a residual DoT due to lots of legacy Ignite BS

[balmy condor]

Some of them are just downright angry that we’ve had 2 devs publicly talking in 2 patches

And I’m like okay but you’re a druid

Silence

[oak sky]

LOL

[upbeat needle]

stfu press convoke

[oak sky]

take your 2 point necro leggo

[marble hemlock]

[oak sky]

nah but like

[stiff current]

aye bro why hunter trees so ass

[upbeat needle]

I wish the devs were active in other class discords

[fleet anchor]

Doomblade definitely one to keep on the radar for the future just in case it's relevant though, since it's also still in DF

[upbeat needle]

then again idc about other classes so

[oak sky]

some other classes have a tough community and bad tc

so like

[upbeat needle]

maybe u should ask the hunter discord ?

[oak sky]

they might make their shit even wors

e

[bleak sky]

This would be a very welcome clarity change

[balmy condor]

Doomblade probably really hard to pin down honestly with all the generator buffing effects

Sounds like a nightmare tbh

[stiff current]

@upbeat needle maybe you should ask your barber to fix your hair

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I mean Doomblade will basically scale with Mutilate damage only but there's a lot of those floating around so who knows where it will land

[obtuse robin]

yea like dh tc's saying wft is good for them

[fleet anchor]

But it's definitely a point of player confusion possibly

[upbeat needle]

[bleak sky]

I mean they're not wrong with a certain build, but that's not the case generally

[fleet anchor]

(Would almost be better if it just didn't say "Bleed" perhaps haha)

[upbeat needle]

you mean like DH's trying to trick every raid leader into thinking wft is better than it actually is for them

[obtuse robin]

its not the case in sl and sinful/eye beam

[bleak sky]

Do you think for clarity's sake doomblade should just be "mutilate does x% increased damage"?

[stiff current]

woops wrong thing

[obtuse robin]

in what content do dh's play blades

[bleak sky]

Halondrus

[obtuse robin]

ok they get wft on halo

[oak sky]

but isnt blades gain still worse than rogue specs arms sv feral and ret

[obtuse robin]

moving on

[fleet anchor]

Our newer DHs tried that earlier this tier and they got the "sorry fam, I do DH sims and you're wrong, move outta the way for some Rogues bro" speech from me 🤣

[upbeat needle]

Absolute clown

lmfaooooo

Every DH tries to pull that shit bro

[obtuse robin]

its worse then dk tnak and brew

[oak sky]

king kartra

[fleet anchor]

"Max said it was undersimming"

[bleak sky]

Avade high on copium

[upbeat needle]

shoulda told him to tell max to come do the sims then

:/

[balmy condor]

Max is also saying that sub rogue has raid utility and my DM's get flooded every time he says something about rogues because 90% of the time it's just really stupid uninformed nonsense

[fleet anchor]

(Avade didn't actually think that fwiw, he was just trying to track the changes between the patch revisions and we talked at decent length to clarify in Havoc TC channel haha)

[bleak sky]

Oh?

[upbeat needle]

mfs see 1 poison talent bro

smh

[oak sky]

Tbf if they mess around with it a little sub will have some raid utility

[bleak sky]

I wonder how the "AVADE SAYS IT'S GOOD" stuff about wft started then

[fleet anchor]

He basically thought it was possibly undersimming and we (and Wordup) looked into it and found it was good and he's like "ok cool" but somehow the legend lived on.

[balmy condor]

I think in the last week, I have been able to tell when max was streaming

simply from the influx of dm's I received

it's that bad

[upbeat needle]

jfc

[bleak sky]

I see I see Koji

Thanks for the lore

[stiff current]

rogues need nerf

[fleet anchor]

It just kicked around as urban lore for the next 8 months

[bleak sky]

I shall not share misinformation on the internet anymore

[fleet anchor]

For an issue that was resolved in like 2 hours

🤣

Gotta love the internet man

[drifting cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/hehe-raccoon-ornery-gif-10625001

[obtuse robin]

tbf to max most of his opinions are rwf related and ppl r to dumb to realize that

[bleak sky]

People love to spread misinformation (I'm people)

[balmy condor]

yeah but his rogue takes aren't even rwf related they're just wrong related

[fleet anchor]

The real history lesson is really that nobody quite understands why WFT was nerfed to shit for DW specs 😄

It was totally redesigned I think 3 times during SL from start of beta to present version

[bleak sky]

[drifting cloud]

He just like me fr

[fleet anchor]

From an ICD version to a MH proc OH version, to now just MH version.. but MH version that still gets the DW miss penalty

Realistically it was the latest version of WFT that made it "bad" for DH

Hence the confusion

[bleak sky]

I see

[obtuse robin]

idk his take on 3 % dr and the sub one seemed to make sense same with outlaw one he said same thing we have been saying here

[balmy condor]

and like that's nothing bad about max, I like him, the few times we've talked have been very fun, he's very entertaining

but when he talks about rogues

it's clear he isn't informed

and it hurts

[fleet anchor]

Current version of WFT is honestly really poopy for any DW spec at a baseline, but Rogues have additional benefits due to poisons and such that still allow it to be strong

[oak sky]

doesnt help he stopped playing rogue at the start of the tier

[upbeat needle]

until he talks to james

who gets his info from u all

LOL

[obtuse robin]

james might be less informed

[balmy condor]

I mean I haven't watched him to confirm any of that, but when I get multiple dm's a day about "why is max saying sub rogues have raid utility? I thought it was shroud movement speed? did I miss something?"

then I'm sitting here like what

[obtuse robin]

he just waits for the orange guys to do the math

[upbeat needle]

pretty much

don't we all

[split maple]

^

we all do

[bleak sky]

Some of us theorycraft very bad builds ok

[balmy condor]

the orange guys wait on koji

[upbeat needle]

if no orange guys and koji we'd be in shambles

[stiff current]

its me i theory craft bad builds

[oak sky]

you shouldve seen my full utility m+ bitch boy build yesterday

[balmy condor]

I can't do shit without koji

[upbeat needle]

pls don't

actually no

SHARE IT

[fleet anchor]

I mean it's very easy to get info wrong early on, really the issue is kinda when folks shoot from the hip and it just sticks in everyone's brain and is never "corrected"

[oak sky]

its in this chat somewhere

[obtuse robin]

yea i understand and as someone who watchs max a good bit all he said was that sub utility would of been cracked on halo prenerf

[stiff current]

can somone make trench a utility build in pvp so we can win sometimes

[bleak sky]

We're gonna get you a crash course in C++ trust

[balmy condor]

HUH?

[upbeat needle]

-_-

[bleak sky]

[split maple]

That's how I feel about random WoW things with Stevebear. If he says something is one way, I just assume he's right. Dude does the math 😂

[balmy condor]

this is unironically even more cooked than what I originally thought

[fleet anchor]

Give me some spell data so I can start the next 3 months of my life being locked away trying to refactor everything

[obtuse robin]

[oak sky]

bump, but i did put in flying daggers so its not perfect

[upbeat needle]

what utility LOL

[marble hemlock]

remember when someone said assa 4pc would be 100% increased dps?

[oak sky]

dratnos

100% damage

[balmy condor]

god

[fleet anchor]

lol

[stiff current]

I need yall assistance to take over the hunter discord

[upbeat needle]

dratnos is a clown

[marble hemlock]

i mean

[balmy condor]

content creators are the worst

[marble hemlock]

honest mistake but like

[balmy condor]

I hope I'm never a content creator

[marble hemlock]

it happens 😄

[upbeat needle]

literally the worst routes I've ever seen

[obtuse robin]

we talking about their ms stuff in df

[bleak sky]

Movespeed in shroud I assume

[upbeat needle]

ahhhh

[split maple]

late night Ravenholdt is best Ravenholdt. I'm here for these discussions 😂

[velvet ridge]

whispyr your messages are content creation for me

[oak sky]

like if you assume that the ms in shroud works as it was probably intended then sub potentially gets a roar

[fleet anchor]

Making a mistake on a stream isn't really so bad, everyone does it now and again. It's the fact that nobody issues corrections or retractions for podcasts or chat streams 😛

[obtuse robin]

and jpc agreed which could of been a sign

[balmy condor]

I reached out to dratnos to correct

and he didn't even respond

[bleak sky]

Donowalled by dratnos

[marble hemlock]

tbf the man is super busy

[oak sky]

and roars were good on halondrus, especially for their prog, and dropping a boomie for a sub rogue or dropping a boomie for something else because the sub rogue is there then that kinda goes hard

[upbeat needle]

your simmer locks his sims behind a paywall, better cough that bread up fam

[marble hemlock]

could of
🤮

[upbeat needle]

the moral of the story is that ppl take a narrative and run w it, right or wrong

[cursive orchid]

it's always late night somewhere

[upbeat needle]

with no intentions of seeing if it's true or not

[balmy condor]

the problem is

MS on shroud

is not a roar

those things are fundamentally different

[split maple]

This is fair. And factual.

[marble hemlock]

its more that the first news is the one thats being spread and that people believe. if you issue a retraction later, it doesnt really matter

[balmy condor]

because one works in combat

and the other is uh

well it's shroud

[upbeat needle]

I was going to say unless they make shroud castable out of stealth

like

[marble hemlock]

shroud as a roar doesnt work cause the shroud on anybody but the rogue will break from any source of damage taken or dealt

[oak sky]

well

[marble hemlock]

you can just vanish and shroud, thats not the issue really

[oak sky]

was realz intending to give sub a roar

[marble hemlock]

its that it just breaks

instantly

[upbeat needle]

sorry my vanish is on CD

[oak sky]

because if he was I'm sure theres a good way to make it function as a roar

[marble hemlock]

dance then

[upbeat needle]

fact

[cursive orchid]

i guess the plan was to make it a wo spell

[oak sky]

even if it doesnt work as intended how shroud currently functions

[obtuse robin]

i assume it wouldnt make it live like that cuz of the interactions seem wierd

[fleet anchor]

That's not even the 200 IQ way to do it. SEPSIS into Shroud 🤔

[upbeat needle]

we do be taking dance in DF

[upbeat needle]

CRACKED

[fleet anchor]

opop

[bleak sky]

This is why we pay you the big bucks

[random fossil]

Woah

[fleet anchor]

This was actually a funny observation I had when Sepsis first appeared since it does enable pushing Shroud

But obviously it's totally useless

[marble hemlock]

oh yeah i forgot that sub can play all 3 covenants

[fleet anchor]

Which we pointed out

So that would apply here too 😛

[oak sky]

triple covenant sub build is gonna be bis

[marble hemlock]

anyway

i wanted to go to bed like

an hour ago

[obtuse robin]

yea i cant wait for wet noodle flags

[gloomy knoll]

No it’s not supposed to work in raid we asked

[upbeat needle]

same

[fleet anchor]

So people excited about mid-raid Shroud about a year late to that party

[oak sky]

aight then its not a roar

[gloomy knoll]

It’s not subs utility it’s just for m+ shit for example

[obtuse robin]

oh shit

[oak sky]

so its useless

[obtuse robin]

[gloomy knoll]

Yes

[oak sky]

nice

[gloomy knoll]

Sub has no utility

[fleet anchor]

I feel like most Rogues read it how Realz intended it lol

[oak sky]

is sub going to get utility

[obtuse robin]

i read it as it will only be usable in raid when in dance

not fair?

[gloomy knoll]

Hopefully the dr poison is class wide is what we talked about but he said it’s not ultimately up to just him so who knows

[obtuse robin]

or subtref etc

[gloomy knoll]

Oh he’s here ask him lol

[obtuse robin]

realz a fellow degen like us

[fleet anchor]

Not totally sure why it got blown out of proportion but yeah

[sharp falcon]

Yeah my spider sense around double-dipping starts to go off when we're modifying damage that was based off damage taken

[oak sky]

im kinda pro removing restless crew who the fuck wants 2 specs of one class required in a raid

dont say "i like it im a rogue"

[bleak sky]

Have you seen my no dance no deeper strats build? It's bussin

[oak sky]

pretend youre any other class

[gloomy knoll]

I’d be fine with 2-3 rogues

I doubt restless would make us mandatory tho

[oak sky]

this is dumb imo

i like seeing 1 rogue in every raid

and others

[gloomy knoll]

Depends on outlaw tuning + restless dps

[oak sky]

based on tuning

[gloomy knoll]

Why

Warrior regularly gets stacked and takes up every melee spot

[fleet anchor]

I mean Rogues have had an AoE Sprint concept floating around on the periphery for a very long time now

[gloomy knoll]

Unless something else is busted af

Like dk in nathria

[fleet anchor]

If devs wanted to give us that, it'd kinda make more sense just to go that route rather than some 200 IQ Shroud Vanish thingy 😛

[marble hemlock]

we had that as an azerite trait already

[oak sky]

i think the default should be 1 of every class generally speaking

then you add more based on needs

[marble hemlock]

giving speed to allies when we used sprint

and it stacked!

[fleet anchor]

Yeah

[split maple]

So if it is required and is very powerful for other classes, does it really matter if outlaw is good if their job is to pump other DPS? That would feel real bad. See Enhancement in SOD where it wasn't great but everyone brought 1 to buff the warriors

[fleet anchor]

I think you'd be better off trying to list the tiers that Enhancement was great rather than the other way around 😄

[split maple]

facts

[fleet anchor]

Cursed spec

[gloomy knoll]

Needs = utility rn unfortunately outside of a spec being tuned really high or being really fucjing good on a specific boss

And when melee spots are limited

That means without utility rogue better be cracked

Which is why for a long time now you generally see the token rogue if they’re brought at all

[oak sky]

rogue is getting utility, so 1 rogue will be brought

[fleet anchor]

I mean I'm personally a proponent for Rogues getting something to contribute in raid. But don't feel super strongly what flavor it needs to be. I'm just still mildly salty about Monks literally stealing our raid debuff.

[oak sky]

i just dont need to see rogue taking up 2 slots and fucking over all the other melee

[sharp falcon]

we talking Expose Armor ?

or what

[oak sky]

like

[gloomy knoll]

Yea the dr makes you basically mandatory which is definitely a nice change

[oak sky]

imagine ur a ret paladin

and you see 2 rogues every tier

[marble hemlock]

initially rogue had the 5% phys debuff, not monk

[oak sky]

and 1 warrior

and 1 monk and 1 dk

[marble hemlock]

then they took it and gave it to monk

[gloomy knoll]

You basically already see that tho

[sharp falcon]

rekt

[fleet anchor]

Yeah, the current Monk debuff literally existed as Expose Armor for Rogue then was pivoted to be the monk debuff during beta. 😄

[gloomy knoll]

With warriors

[sharp falcon]

during the beta, so it never really existed

[gloomy knoll]

Like how does Ret feel when warriors are stacked every tier and it gets nothing

[fleet anchor]

They even reused the same original spell ID

[gloomy knoll]

How is it being a rogue any diff lol

[fleet anchor]

They have the legacy Rogue expose armor spell

[sharp falcon]

mad about alternative universe, yo me too

[oak sky]

ur doing the real enemy thing

[whole mason]

maybe we can get HAT back?

in an alternative version?

[bleak sky]

Bro just transmog it it's literally free

[marble hemlock]

hunger for blood

[sharp falcon]

It's late and I'm not coming up with what HAT is

[oak sky]

because the 2nd rogue is required man, the additional warriors are just strong or rally is good

[marble hemlock]

honor among thieves

the cp when someone crit

[sharp falcon]

ah

yes i recall

[marble hemlock]

[gloomy knoll]

It’s not required unless it’s tuned well tho

[whole mason]

gives crit to party and raid

[fleet anchor]

This is basically a war crime

[bleak sky]

That sounds incredibly bad to play around

[gloomy knoll]

Dr is good regardless of tuning

Outlaw Dps + restless Dps is not

[marble hemlock]

i mean

honor among thieves is basically shadow tech

only like, different

[split maple]

I just have this huge doubt we'd get a raid DR though. feels like devs did not like smoke bomb as a raid CD

[marble hemlock]

but the effect is almost the same

[whole mason]

no, it was a raid buff

5% crit

[bleak sky]

Yeah but you can track your own stech

[oak sky]

we literally got a raid dr

[marble hemlock]

in a raid with hots and all the other stuff

[whole mason]

i mean plus the cp thing.

[marble hemlock]

youd get your cp every 2sec

[bleak sky]

Hmm

[sharp falcon]

LoS breaking is weird from an encounters perspective, if it was just DR it would be fine (but boring... but fine)

[gloomy knoll]

I’m here for it man

[marble hemlock]

just bring back hemorrhage as a raidbuff. increases auto attack damage for other melee classes, and gives us another bleed

[bleak sky]

Evoker got smoke bomb don't worry

[oak sky]

2nd shout lol

[gloomy knoll]

I’d everyone and they momma gonna have a raid buff I’d rather not be the class or spec that didn’t

[fleet anchor]

Honestly, the unfortunate thing about it was that the pivot (according to devs at the time) was due to MW/WW representation, in particular in M+ and raid. But didn't really end up helping too much in that area, especially since Brewmaster has been hard locked in their raid slot since Legion and just provided the buff 24/7 anyway without any MW/WW players. 😛

[gloomy knoll]

Rip ret paladins

[oak sky]

ww got the speed buff

[marble hemlock]

snapshotting hemo crits during findweakness windows... mhhh cata sub

[oak sky]

theyre as good as sin rogue when u think abt it they have devo

[gloomy knoll]

The true zoomer spec

[bleak sky]

EXCEPT they aren't

[gloomy knoll]

Unfortunately holy does too

[bleak sky]

Because holy does it better

[oak sky]

oh my bad bro

[bleak sky]

Aura mastery cracked

[oak sky]

the 2nd sin rogue

[fleet anchor]

Also Smoke Bomb breaking LoS was definitely super jank and probably wouldn't fly in modern encounter design I suspect

[marble hemlock]

tbf that didnt really work on any boss

except megaeara

iirc

[gloomy knoll]

Reset the boss on accident

[marble hemlock]

basically all bosses just ignored the LoS part from smokebomb

[oak sky]

smoke bomb on jailer

[fleet anchor]

It either didn't do anything or broke something horrifically when someone forgot to flag stuff

[marble hemlock]

just like all bosses ignored my taunt from symbiosis

[sharp falcon]

it's not that it CAN'T be accounted for... it's just like, why re-add that headache? If it doesn't work on anything then it's pointless, and if it does is it really niche but required? That's not a cool thought either

[gloomy knoll]

Los Yo͏u͏rself as you miss your hole so your raid doesn’t wipe

[marble hemlock]

nah, the los part from smokebomb was awful. glad its gone

los in general is not a fun mechanic

[oak sky]

no yeah i think smoke bomb wouldve been fine but I'm glad you came up with some new shit

[sharp falcon]

hiding behind shit is cool idk

environment play can be fun

[bleak sky]

Oh it can be nice for sure

It's just that it generally isn't

[marble hemlock]

maybe if youre a druid in areas with your trusty steering wheel while left pedal is lifebloom and right pedal is swiftmend

[gloomy knoll]

I think it’d be neat but def sounds like a headache

[marble hemlock]

and you cruise around the pillars

[fleet anchor]

That being said, I'd say Zephyr for Evoker kinda yoinked the effect people had talked about potentially for Smoke Bomb in SL so idk

[bleak sky]

Thematically doing LoS stuff on shriekwing was fun, felt good

But on jailer? Feels bad

[marble hemlock]

i didnt like LoS on azshara at all

or jailer

[gloomy knoll]

It’d be even better if it losd your teammates

[bleak sky]

It's a hard design to make fun I think

[oak sky]

that was because you couldnt do damage while it happened

[marble hemlock]

having to dispel people behind LoS with warlock imps and stuff... horrible

[gloomy knoll]

I would definitely not step bomb a combusting mage

[fleet anchor]

I like pillar humping in encounters about as much as I like it in arenas. That is to say, I don't. 😄

[whole mason]

BTW, can we get our dot when parried? for example rupture or CT

[bleak sky]

You could though

[oak sky]

oh

right

not in intermission

[bleak sky]

Ya

[oak sky]

in the middle of the fight

i forgot

[bleak sky]

He forgor

[oak sky]

its been a year

[marble hemlock]

theres lots of cool environmental stuff you can do, like splitting up the raid like on anduin, or even on a fight like portal keeper in antorus

[gloomy knoll]

Portal keeper was dope

I liked that boss

[obtuse robin]

or phlactary on kel thuzad

oh wait

[gloomy knoll]

Or zaquls shadow realm

[marble hemlock]

i mean, splitting up the raid was fine

what happened inside the phylactery was not

[gloomy knoll]

You mean season long slavery

[fleet anchor]

LoS is fine as a theory but it's often sketchy how it works with more complex terrain or pillar shapes

[gloomy knoll]

I went down every single time the entirety of mythic

[oak sky]

same

[faint harness]

in an ideal world, rogue is brought because it does a lot of damage and is tanky, not just another raid cd pusher

[gloomy knoll]

In both guilds I was in

[oak sky]

elusive MEGALUL

[bleak sky]

Hard agree with push

[marble hemlock]

anyway, slenp time

[gloomy knoll]

I mean if I had my long ass fingers in the tuning knob

[faint harness]

i certainly wouldnt want to just be some fucking smoke bomb placer, is that fun? i dont think so

[bleak sky]

Nn seli

[sharp falcon]

or does a lot of damage and is squishy, but worth supporting to get the benefit of that damage?

[gloomy knoll]

Rogue would always be rank 1 or rank 2 st

[faint harness]

squishy rogue

[faint harness]

gn old man

[marble hemlock]

im fine with rogue having no raid CD if they instead are the "carry" you push DPS support for

but so far, rogue was neither

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I tend to agree Push, as long as the damage is there I'm not overly fussed. But, then again, I feel like raid buffs have gone too far in general in the raid environment in general. Honestly hate putting together raid comps these days.

[sharp falcon]

assassin is pretty squishy

[whole mason]

I recall that once in 7.x dev said survivability was rogue's raid utility.

[gloomy knoll]

I’d be ok with that if our st looked like locks aoe

[sharp falcon]

definitely the most squishy of the 3 rogue specs

[bleak sky]

It's still a pretty damn tanky melee

Feint is kinda nutty

[faint harness]

my RL is so depressed that rogue didnt get 5% phys amp poison or whatever

stuck on brewmaster

for life

[obtuse robin]

frost shard assa

[fleet anchor]

Damage is often really not even close to the primary consideration for raid comp building at this point. Just so many damn checkboxes to fill out for a given encounter.

[oak sky]

shut up

frost shards were garbage

[marble hemlock]

we just never got our crimson vial/pickpocket feature, so our survivability felt kinda trash imo

[obtuse robin]

i lik3ed the shield

and ignoring everything

[marble hemlock]

i still wanna know what that was supposed to be like

[bleak sky]

Just get a mistweaver

[marble hemlock]

but we will never know

[sharp falcon]

it's assassin, 5% anyone-DoT amp, duh

[faint harness]

that would be nuts

[oak sky]

dunno with feint and cloak and cv and cheat and recuperator i always feel tanky

[whole mason]

that sounds great!

[gloomy knoll]

He means comparatively lol

[faint harness]

both MW and WW suffers from being trash every now and then

[fleet anchor]

For most of the encounters this tier it's like by the time we go through all the assignments, CDs, melee/range balance, etc. we get to decide on like 3 people 🤣

[oak sky]

i mean are we really worse off than outlaw and sub? no grand melee i guess?

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jbbuj/2e39c79ed2.png

[gloomy knoll]

Sub has a dr on dance now

[velvet ridge]

just a non lethal poison for every buff, then let us fill in, ez

[sharp falcon]

it's also blasphemous, treading on sacred ground, lol

[oak sky]

in dragonflight or rn

[gloomy knoll]

Df

[bleak sky]

Df

[oak sky]

ok

[marble hemlock]

hemo but for dots? every damage over time effect deals x extra damage? :>

[faint harness]

didnt you know, if you have something on alpha now you have it forever

[gloomy knoll]

Outlaw has restless reducing shit and increased stamina

[oak sky]

we get leeching but lose recuperator

[whole mason]

indeed, but greed is good, i suppose?

[oak sky]

ima miss my healing parses dude

[sharp falcon]

not so greedy, sounds like spreading the love to me

[oak sky]

actually yo i would lose recuperator if it meant killing snd

[sharp falcon]

Greed would be: Lethal Dose increases your damage for EVERY damage over time effect on the target

Raid Funnels Rogue

[bleak sky]

Aight bet make it happen

Surely won't go wrong

[gloomy knoll]

Lol

[bleak sky]

Nothing bad can come out of it

Trust

[velvet ridge]

every rogeu increasing every rogues dmg by like 18%