assassination

[oak sky]

only the homies 💋

[balmy condor]

2 days + 4?

[ebon notch]

only 2 days

you thot

[burnt latch]

how can u satisfy a woman if u cant please your homies 🤤

[bleak sky]

he means post-rwf

[spice spire]

Ur right I’m hitting the wrong angle

🤨

[ebon notch]

what

[burnt latch]

I did some overtime police investigation

the results have come in

daps is

SPEAKING TRUTH

[bleak sky]

can you back that up to hof days cieft

[ebon notch]

truth speaker

[bleak sky]

this mf was raiding 9 days a week

[ebon notch]

illegal

statute of limitations

has expired

@gusty mirage right?

[bleak sky]

[burnt latch]

yeah sadly overtime police only counts last 30 days

[spice spire]

You have four toons above 3k io 🤨

[burnt latch]

daps is officially overtime free

[spice spire]

@ebon notch

[bleak sky]

tbf 3k is free

[ebon notch]

ye i mythic raid on them

[spice spire]

You have 4 toons there?

[ebon notch]

so i want the conduits

[oak sky]

bro i read realz court bit yesterday

guy should be a comedian not a talent dev

[spice spire]

I’m onto you mister dapspman

[ebon notch]

what

[spice spire]

Allegation: NO BITCHES

(I’m on one today)

[ebon notch]

(i can tell)

BLASPHEMY

[spice spire]

[burnt latch]

get ready to spread

[spice spire]

[ebon notch]

i wanna talk to quake again

his voice sounds nice

[spice spire]

You’re too kind

[ebon notch]

wat

i saw that

[spice spire]

Autocorrect, cooking

[burnt latch]

if u think his voice sounds nice, u should feel his loving embrace on a cold summer evening

[spice spire]

[ebon notch]

what you cooking

[bleak sky]

takes

mf cooking his takes

[spice spire]

God bless

Nah some chili noodles

[burnt latch]

how much to get noodles from u

[spice spire]

Chicken, pickled carrots, cucumber chili noodles

[spice spire]

No Onlypans, sorry king

[ebon notch]

i swear you sound homeless sometimes warcieft

[burnt latch]

what does a homeless person sound like

ive never thought about it

[spice spire]

In my experience, there’s no distinct sound to homeless

Intelligence, sobriety, accent

All over the place

[balmy condor]

can y'all stop being weird

(and that's coming from me)

[ebon notch]

(quake has interacted with many homeless people)

(one has just entered the chat)

[spice spire]

It’s my job?

[ebon notch]

oh fuck

[spice spire]

[ebon notch]

OH I FORGOT

@burnt latch help i made an oopsie

[spice spire]

(No)

[balmy condor]

I believe that the term is "doing a daps"

[ebon notch]

fk u

[burnt latch]

let all flowers bloom

what did u oopsie daps

[oak sky]

war see ft

[balmy condor]

ft what

[spice spire]

Deez

[burnt latch]

what is ft

[oak sky]

facetime me

now

😈

[burnt latch]

yes king

[burnt latch]

OH

now i get it

[oak sky]

[burnt latch]

not only a pretty face, but a brain too

im a catch

[strong tide]

does this hit only the target you aa/mut or will it dmg anyone around you with your poisons on them

[balmy condor]

Only the target obviously

It’s just extra mut damage

[ebon notch]

mood

[oak sky]

Is it 50% bonus mut damage or 50% of their damage

[balmy condor]

What?

[oak sky]

Like

Does it make half your mut nature

Or add an extra 50%

Because if it just makes half of it nature isnt it only a buff during shiv

Aas too obviously

[thick wigeon]

Ignores armor and maybe potential to benefit from mastery

[balmy condor]

Add

Would be dogshit otherwise

[bleak sky]

they could really word it "as extra"

to avoid this misunderstanding

@ realz change pls

[strange python]

That wording makes it sound like it's an armor bypass only

[balmy condor]

I mean it could be converting

[bleak sky]

aight bet where's the red name man

[balmy condor]

But it seems very questionable

Even 100% conversion would be like a 3% gain or something

[velvet ridge]

Oh boy, can't wait for tomorrow. Exciting, so many builds, what to do

[strange python]

well plus - does shiv still increase nature dmg?

[oak sky]

Ye thats what i thought but how its worded made me think that

[strange python]

Maybe our mastery is gonna change too who knows

[balmy condor]

It does, 20%

[balmy condor]

Big doubt

[bleak sky]

because see whispyr

this is worded very differently

so my guess is it's just conversion (?)

[balmy condor]

Yeh

I mean I get why the confusion exists

[strange python]

That's how i read it originally - like armor pen

[balmy condor]

I don’t know for sure

But conversion seems really bad

[bleak sky]

agreed

[strange python]

yeah

I mean even if it said like "an additional 10% dmg as..." that'd seem better.

[bleak sky]

clarification mr dev

[strange python]

But we already have the 30% bleed to addon right

[balmy condor]

I’m assuming it’s like double dose

Which is additional

[oak sky]

Tbf conversion would buff shiv which is the theme of that line to an extent

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[oak sky]

Slightly

Buff

[balmy condor]

But like

For a 2 point

[oak sky]

1% gain

[balmy condor]

25%

If it were 50/100 I would be like yeah okay that’s a conversion for sure

50% seems additional to me and just overtuned

Like a lethal dose

[bleak sky]

where double dose

[velvet ridge]

Imagine, if 50% of dmg as a poison over like 3 secs

Lethal dose synergy KEKL

[balmy condor]

Doomblade

That’s just doomblade

[velvet ridge]

Yeah but auto atks too

[simple stratus]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[cursive orchid]

what would you think about a mechanic that extend dots? i liked that aspect in shadow in bfa. like "mutilate has X% chance to extend your bleeds on your target for 2 sec.".

[storm onyx]

I hoped Fok would do that at 3+ targets but...

[sharp falcon]

re: Vicious Venoms ... yeah, the intention was 'just' conversion, the other skills that do this tend to say something like, "X skill deals Y% extra damage as shadow" instead of "X skill deals Y% of its damage as shadow" -- that's a pretty discrete difference though, and I can probably massage the tooltipping to be a little more clear, perhaps by adding the word "instead" in the case of conversion to make it clear it's a replacement effect and not additional

THAT SAID

I had separately considered the talent and came to the conclusion it's probably better off as an "as extra" effect, though inevitably with numbers that are significantly lower than 25%/50% (because that's insane)

[bleak sky]

50% extra is bonkers

thanks for the clarification and the buff

[slow needle]

I think just putting either the word convert or additional would be fine. Like "convert x% of y to z" or "Y does an additional x% damage as z"

It would be simple and convey the proper meaning.

I do have a rando question for you though Realz if thats alright, about processes within Blizz.

How many eyes do these trees have on them before release to us? Like did you do it all and then release them with at most a cursory peer review? Or is there more back and forth with other designers having input on your work?
I just find myself interested in how the sausage is made so to speak.

[sharp falcon]

I wonder if there will be some kind of public post-mortem at some point

the Short answer is, very many eyes

they're also very complicated though so like, for example, I personally am not truly intimately familiar with like... Affliction Warlock

[rocky sluice]

just want to confirm, sin rogues always use axe with the Cache trinket?.. what about haste or wand

[sharp falcon]

so little nuanced problems are not really something I personally can give much insightful feedback on in a design review

[bleak sky]

Yes, always axe*

[slow needle]

Thats what I expected but a lot of comments that you have made during discussions suggested you had a large amount of control and ownership over the rogue trees so I was curious. When I was a software dev the code reviews we had before integration generally came down to "Does it break unit tests and have you avoided trying to summon an eldritch beast via the magic of C?"
Got me curious as to how similar game design is.

[storm onyx]

Always Axe; ideally never Wand; Haste is ok if you dont want to hold on for a timer that you need to use after 3 mins again

Or is end of fight

This makes me think; Does Cache cycle the same for everyone in a raid/grp?

[sharp falcon]

lol. Yeah it's certainly not 1-to-1. It's tough for me to destroy anything of significance with technical implementation, but at most we're writing LUA, it's the sacred space of officially anointed engineers and programmers to ever touch anything in the C++ server code, off-limits for designers. But a lot of what we're talking about on the Rogue trees here is effectively paper design, even what you saw in the talent preview is just tooltips, much of it is not fully implemented into the game internally yet, work-in-progress. As for control and ownership, that paper design aspect is 'mine' with some degree of flexibility sure, but only to an extent before I start running into rules I can't break or sacred spaces I can't intrude upon, and 100% of it comes with oversight and is subject to change regardless of my initial intentions.

Hopefully that's a fun enough answer without being too specific about process, because anything more detailed is not for me to say or reveal. Like I said, I wonder if there will be a public post-mortem someday, maybe that would be fun? 🙂

[slow needle]

You mentioned a post mortem on this stuff. I think that the design process for these talent trees and maybe ideas that were cool but never made it could make an interesting Blizzcon 2023 panel.

[sharp falcon]

yeah

there are probably some pictures of some early proposals and mockups that looks nothing like what you see now

[lucid birch]

Yo I don’t even play rogue but these answers are dope

[balmy condor]

I was expecting something similar about vicious venoms

Realz on the same wavelength

[bleak sky]

based as fuck

[slow needle]

Thank you for replies as usual. The fact that you are here after work talking to us is greatly appreciated (I think its after hours in the US? Idk its 02:22 here)

[sharp falcon]

i think i had some crazy circular baby-PoE tree at one point where you could take points in any direction, not just one flow and fully connected, it was kind of wild (and not better, but interesting)

[languid crag]

there's some pretty crazy talent tree designs out there

(in other games)

[sharp falcon]

certainly

[balmy condor]

Realz is there a reason why the sub tree has 3 starts instead of 1 like everything else?

[midnight mist]

outlaw has 2

[balmy condor]

Oh yeah

True I guess

[meager granite]

Realz, do you have any kind of idea/guideline on updates on already out talent trees (for example rogues) considering all the discussion you have with the community. Like how many max iterations is set by management before DF is out. Is it possible to expect an update while some classes aren't out yet (that would be, i think, somewhat hard on a PR stand point with the rest of the community).

[sharp falcon]

some of which serve those games better than if they were to transplant whatever we are doing, without a doubt, but by the same token it would be foolish for us to look at another game and do exactly what they did. Custom fit is important, making sure what we do fits WoW

[toxic locust]

the amount of starts correlates to the order they were made in

[sharp falcon]

yeah, there is a reason, well, part of the reason is 'just cuz'

[balmy condor]

Huge brain

[sharp falcon]

I've re-settled on gate inbetween rows 3/4, not 4/5 like wowhead calcs incorrectly have

most trees have really thin tops, assassination also only starts with 1 spot but it's easier to start with multiple if gate is at 3/4 instead of 4/5 like most trees, to more easily 'go wide' with talent options within that space

[balmy condor]

Makes sense

[bleak sky]

that would be fun to see

for curiosity's sake

but I assume it's a big no-no to share those

[languid crag]

just keeping up with the terminology - gate is the "x points required to pass here" bit?

[sharp falcon]

assassin has a bunch of 2-pters in the top section in order to fit enough 'stuff' despite the 1pt starting

yeah Bunz

most trees ask you to spend 8 within the first 4 rows

[languid crag]

yea I noticed that trend

[sharp falcon]

all of the rogue ones ask for 8 within 3 rows instead (wowhead is wrong unfortunately)

[balmy condor]

It was passed on like 7 times, we’re just waiting on devs to be fair

Should be fixed soon

[sharp falcon]

MOST builds that people share still are valid, so i'm not sweating it, but it will need to be fixed eventually as there are some degenerate//unintended things you can do if it remains as wowhead displays

I considered just letting the gate move, but I can't, not that simple, would have to change many things (and I don't want to do that, I like it how it is, heh)

[balmy condor]

Wowheads current talent calculator is actually forced through duct tape since the actual spell ID’s and stuff don’t actually exist

So once it swaps over to spell ID’s and such it’ll be more rigid

[sharp falcon]

yes

[balmy condor]

But right now it’s just being held together by prayers and fake spell icons

[marble hemlock]

i can do some stuff with force and duct tape when youre in germany whispyr

[sharp falcon]

I figured as much (though wasn't personally in the know)

[balmy condor]

Yo chill

[marble hemlock]

dw ill buy you a drink first

[slow needle]

Alpha invites this week right?

[languid crag]

we like those wowhead ppl

they do good work

[balmy condor]

For big YouTubers and streamers and stuff yeah (not me )

[burnt latch]

Im getting alpha invite tomorrow

Unlucky

[balmy condor]

Yeah guess so

I’ve never gotten a beta

[languid crag]

same for sure

[balmy condor]

Well

Okay

I got shadowlands beta

3 weeks before launch

[marble hemlock]

as long as it wont end up like SL alpha its gonna be fine

[slow needle]

Realz, can you hook a man up and get our theorycrafters invites? (Dw, I know you can't really... or can you?)

[languid crag]

Last real beta I got was like legion maybe

or wod idr

[slow needle]

There needs to be an xfiles emoji thing.

[marble hemlock]

where we literally had to beg TCs from other classes to test stuff for us cause not a single rogue from here got alpha or beta

[steel ridge]

@sharp falcon just wanted to say that i really appreciate your hands on feedback trip around this weird place.

[languid crag]

the 😡 emote

[sharp falcon]

I will go back to being a lurker eventually

just wait til there's a balance problem and I don't sacrifice myself to the mob

[toxic locust]

everything's cool until we're using CT in ST again

[languid crag]

There's never been a balance problem in this game wdym

[balmy condor]

MR DEV

THERES A BUG

[slow needle]

xD lurking is only a matter of time. DH trees still inc. I'm enjoying this dev interaction until Fel Hammer sends you to therapy with issues.

[marble hemlock]

we can just sacrifice one of the orange people

theyre useless anyway

[burnt latch]

I have never seen @gusty mirage and Realz type at the same time. Also Oxi claims to know a lot about NDAs. My theory is that Oxi is Realz’ burner account

[balmy condor]

I am not doing damage, please fix wth

[marble hemlock]

we still dont have sims

its been like

3days

[gusty mirage]

pls forgive me I'm wiping on bosses I killed back in March

and April

and May

[mossy sable]

May I volunteer?

[marble hemlock]

youre yellow

[mossy sable]

I always knew I would be a ritual Sacrifice someday

[marble hemlock]

outlaw players are wothless sacrifices

[burnt latch]

Unlucko skolex is a toughie

[mossy sable]

:(

[gusty mirage]

watch your whore mouth

[mossy sable]

You used to be one of us

[slow needle]

Can't expect an Outlaw player to understand colours.

[burnt latch]

LANGUAGE

[gusty mirage]

pirates eat crayons

[marble hemlock]

@balmy condor did you promote our thing?

[gusty mirage]

they don't read the colors on them

[marble hemlock]

do we want to?

[cursive orchid]

we are not talking of that

[marble hemlock]

maybe oxi wants to

with a fans of knives? 🙂

[gusty mirage]

sure

[marble hemlock]

he said hes bored earlier

[gusty mirage]

if I can actually log in

[marble hemlock]

that sounds like a "you" problem

[meager granite]

Worthless or not i'm ok with sacrifing them, even reducing rogue to 2 specs only

[gusty mirage]

sounds like a y'all problem

[mossy sable]

I just want to try a Sin spec that goes brrrrrrr next xpac

[balmy condor]

I posted it earlier but I’d hardly call it promoting

[marble hemlock]

sounds like a DN problem

[mossy sable]

Then I play more

[gusty mirage]

I can solve that problem for you if you want

how much is a ticket to Germany anyway

[marble hemlock]

should add it to the pin

if you ahve sample trees there

[gusty mirage]

WHY AM I IN ON ANDUIN

SEND HELP

[marble hemlock]

might as well add it

[gusty mirage]

SOMEONE PLS

[burnt latch]

Play outlaw

[gusty mirage]

I'd rather play in traffic

[marble hemlock]

its karma

[balmy condor]

It cost us 2100 roughly per ticket

Round trip

[mossy sable]

Sin feels less slow now tho, since I haven't played for a month

[gusty mirage]

not bad

[marble hemlock]

you got karma'd

for this

[gusty mirage]

alright bro

don't expose me like that

[marble hemlock]

dw

[slow needle]

2100 what? (I have no idea where you're from)

[marble hemlock]

its like it never happened

https://tenor.com/view/youdidntseeanything-disappear-penguin-madagascar-gif-14590829

[balmy condor]

United States Fake Moneys

[gusty mirage]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/632627908439179274/980371559753609216/1530748900146966528.gif

pls someone

come trial for my guild on anduin so I can log off

pls

which one of yall snakes wanted my raid spot

nows your chance

[meager granite]

Canadian dollars?

[mossy sable]

How much DPS do you do

[marble hemlock]

you could trial in my guild and enjoy raid break until august

[slow needle]

Ah, trump coin right? Or is it Biden Bucks now?

[mossy sable]

If it's more than none

[gusty mirage]

it's rogue on anduin bro

does it even matter?

[mossy sable]

I can't do it

[balmy condor]

Schumer Schillings

Politics tho

[marble hemlock]

nice ignore whispyr

[mossy sable]

The only politics I care about

[balmy condor]

I’m very good at my job

[sharp falcon]

Q: 2 Shiv charges?

[mossy sable]

Is if Anduin will ever return

[balmy condor]

2 shiv charges big for the enrage holding rotation thing

[languid crag]

2 shiv charges sounds great

[balmy condor]

Yeah okay I will

[languid crag]

or if you need to de-enrage 2 very important things at once

[balmy condor]

DoS skele boys

[languid crag]

exactly who I was thinking of

[slow needle]

Replace Garrote in the class tree with shiv. Make Garrote baseline. Have current shiv talent give second charge? Allows Outlaw and Sub to keep the soothe for M+.

[ebon notch]

I can soothe two targets now!n

!!!

[sharp falcon]

I cut it for a reason (it was available in pre-preview tree versions) but I need to restore de-enrage to all specs

[marble hemlock]

rogue soothe is just entirely inferior to any other soothe atm

a second charge wont really fix that, not as long as the ability is tied to DPS

[ebon notch]

Make it have a cool down refund if it dispels anything

[languid crag]

Bake it into mind numbing

[marble hemlock]

wow, daps had a good idea

[balmy condor]

Any target you hit is soothed just fok

[marble hemlock]

actually i was gonna say that

[ebon notch]

:3

[languid crag]

[ebon notch]

Means you don't have to add a charge either

[balmy condor]

Cooldown refresh sounds good

[ebon notch]

25 is fine for pure DPS rotation

[marble hemlock]

might be too strong tho

[ebon notch]

But if you gotta soothe it's unplayable

[meager granite]

Wouldn't having 2 shiv charge would just incentive assa to use the 2 charges for offensive uses?

[sharp falcon]

er not response

[ebon notch]

Legit can't play assa in keys during raging

[midnight mist]

what happen in raging weeks with that tho

[marble hemlock]

i was thinking smth along a choice node, where its either a dps button or a cd reduction. cause shiv in m+ is kinda pointless as a cooldown anyway, so i think most people would opt for the shorter cd in m+, and go for the dmg amp in raid

[sharp falcon]

This would be a side-effect, absolutely

[ebon notch]

Make the CD 10 seconds

So it refunds 15

[sharp falcon]

But 2 charges lets you hold a charge while still cooling down, no CD time lost

[ebon notch]

Like the other soothes

[meager granite]

We circle back to previous community preférence. Toxic blade for offensive effect and Shiv for disenrage and improved non lethal poisoned

[toxic locust]

no, that's not happening

[sharp falcon]

maybe THIS community preference, and even then idk

[toxic locust]

if shiv has 2 charges you'll be able to hold 1 for the utility anyway

[sharp falcon]

but no, I have no intention of splitting up into two buttons again

There was a good reason for it, and I do agree with you that the current configuration isn't perfect

[slow needle]

I think 2 charges fixes the issues nicely. You can hold a charge for utility or dump for damage. Its a nice moment to moment gameplay choice.

[sharp falcon]

but it's good enough 99% of the time, with some notable rough edges

[meager granite]

Just saying that by trying to fix 1 point this may lead to balancing question due to offensive uses only

[steel ridge]

Is Tiny Toxic Blades Talent a meme?

[marble hemlock]

but yeah, theres lots of solutions. i think having 2 charges just means we hold both for dps, it doesnt really solve the issue i personally have with shiv as a cooldown. and even the 20% poison amp isnt exactly impactful. we just send it on CD with no regard for our energy or CP situation

current set and WPS made shiv feel more impactful, but its still one of the buttons we never even delayed because doing so was a dps loss.

[meager granite]

2 shiv charges means 2 shiv usage during deathmark to me

[toxic locust]

2 shiv charges sounds like you can actually hold it and pool

[meager granite]

in 99% of cases

[toxic locust]

since you won't be losing uses

[marble hemlock]

pretty much. youd just pool both shivs to align with other CDs like dance or deathmark

[balmy condor]

Yeah but you would still have it for a derage

[sharp falcon]

Why would you hold both, the whole problem coming into this is the strong urge to use, not hold, for dps. And 2 charges means you can be nearly as efficient per-CD while holding a charge in circumstances where the utility could be necessary. Any other circumstance you can do with them as you like, which I also can't really see as a problem, just a small change

[bleak sky]

2 charges sounds very big juicy mr dev

i want

[meager granite]

and we haven't yet mentionned synergies for Atrophic poison in raid (if thats still a possibility)

[mossy sable]

This is all interesting to follow, sadly I am Sin Noob so I only understand a portion

[sharp falcon]

Atrophic discussios ongoing

discussions, too

[marble hemlock]

the question is why would you ever use a rogue for soothe if you have a hunter or druid. theres basically 0 incentive to use the rogue over any of those, and if you only have the rogue, then he will still feel terrible for using a 25sec cd or holding onto 2 charges while not cooling down any, just so he can double-soothe (and waste double the damage, on top of not recharging the skill)

[ebon notch]

You could combine both options? Make shiv 30s cd and let it have a refund on top

[steel ridge]

2 charges is effectively 1 more use per fight

[ebon notch]

So that refunding off one charge can reward you for dispelling

Similar to DH interrupts and the hunter conduit

[sharp falcon]

Atrophic is by far the most touchy of everything previewed in all of Rogue trees, because it has implications beyond balancing or tuning for a single ability

That said it's definitely not "ZOMG ROGUE DEVO" it's 100% weaker than that

until you can start poisoning floors and walls and shit, with 100% uptime, then sure it's devo

and adds for that matter

[balmy condor]

The only way to fix this is de-couple shiv from utility and damage entirely

[sharp falcon]

I explored other ways to do this but they also had problems

[slow needle]

Well, yeah. Lots of env damage in raids that Atrophic won't reduce that devo does.

[sharp falcon]

or boss makes you move and cant poison it for 10sec, etc

[faint harness]

More than 0

[sharp falcon]

yes, I did say it was still the most touchy, by far, of everything

just that it's not as OP as I've seen it made out to be from some sources of feedback

[marble hemlock]

well, if theres any "sudden" enrages, then thats definitely true. but most soothes come in a very "planned" or expected manner, whether its mobs in raging weeks that need to be soothed within a second of hitting 30% and you know exactly when its gonna happen, or certain mobs that enrage on cast or at certain hp thresholds.

if we're looking at a single-target situation, youd still want to use both shivs for DPS, especially if it allows you to gain full shiv uptime during deathmark, whereas on AoE youd typically never press shiv in the first place, so youd always have the soothe already. the second charge would still feel like a significant loss of DPS.

[faint harness]

I think certain big streamers are hyping it up a lot, yes

[slow needle]

A good 90% of streamers, while being amazing players, have real bad takes on in dev things imo.

[sharp falcon]

I was there, be nice, they can't be 100% right about everything at first glance =p

[uneven hamlet]

raid leader setting shiv as a defensive cd will be cring tbh

[faint harness]

No one will do that, unless you have 1 big boss dmg hit that you really need 7% dr on

[marble hemlock]

basically, the pain point of shiv right now, is that if we are required to soothe, we have to use 1 cast in a way that doesnt line up with dps windows. no other soothe-based class has that issue, and our soothe has 3x their cooldown on top of that. its an issue that solely exists for assa as well.

[burnt latch]

I think its VERY strong for early content, and DRs very fast when u get gear and bosses get nerfed, a bit like Devo aura. If it would be released right now, I dont think theres any scenario where im the only rogue in the roster and im not playing assasination (unless boss only does damage to tank or something similar, sludgefist has been said as an example)

[ebon notch]

on prog that will happen

[slow needle]

True, its their haste to make content which causes it most likely. Instead of properly reflecting on things.

[meager granite]

OP, probably not for a very high portion of players, however for leading guilds or so, 2 charges could mean 20 ish seconds of 7+% damage reduction on certain timings, that's lifechanging for them. But there will be degeneracy at some point

[ebon notch]

the other option could be to lean more into it and make it dispel other shit

but it doesnt really solve the problem

just makes it even more valuable for the wrong reasons

[faint harness]

Completely depends on boss design, but perhaps yes

[ebon notch]

i mean imagine it on pre nerf jailer

there are so many uses

[sharp falcon]

2nd charge smooths this out almost to a point of becoming a non-issue. It's not perfect but it would still go from a significant issue to an insignificant minor annoyance

[faint harness]

you would 100% hold it for meteor cleave at least

[meager granite]

Well ofc we are talking boss mecanics with damage coming from boss not environment

[ebon notch]

ikr

think about on pull where brewmasters have to pre dampen

[balmy condor]

I still think it should just be toxic blade and shiv tbh, put shiv on the class tree, make all the sin stuff toxic blade. Everyone gets a de-rage, sin gets the rotational part. I get the button bloat concept but that’s what it was in legion and it was fine honestly, like it’s way more important to keybind than say distract for example, distract is still a thing

[marble hemlock]

yeah absolutely. its not the most elegant solution or the one i'd personally prefer, but it moves the issue from "this fucking sucks" to "well, atleast i didnt have to sit on the button for 20seconds because it barely misaligned with my cooldown"

[ebon notch]

id honestly like to have more buttons not less

having a proper "toolkit" feels really nice

personally anyway

[meager granite]

We are talking about a spell we would hit very rarely compared to a lot others so i don't see the "button bloat"

[sharp falcon]

I don't prefer it either. Here's an alternative solution we won't do, but briefly considered: move enrage dispel to numbing poison application

[marble hemlock]

worst feeling is having your shiv come up 2seconds too late and someone dies, or sitting on it for 90% of its cooldown because you dont know itll come up before you can squeeze in another use

[toxic locust]

hmm

[languid crag]

yea that'd be just too good prob

[toxic locust]

is there any other place we could put the enrage dispel

[ebon notch]

you could make numbing poison reduce how enraged a mob gets?

[toxic locust]

instead of having it be a "new" button

[meager granite]

How about we make a deal, put SnD buff baseline for assa with cut to the chase and split TB and shiv? 😄

[ebon notch]

so it halves the effects

so its not a complete soothe but it still has an effect thats not useles

[balmy condor]

Button bloat was something realz brought up in an earlier convo on it

[marble hemlock]

yeah that sounds incredibly broken, as youd be able to dispel enrages permanently with fok on aoe

assa would basically negate the raging affix 😄

[ebon notch]

oh no how terrible

its so much fun

[sharp falcon]

we haven't frequently said anything like, "agree to disagree" recently but I don't intend to separate shiv out into 2 parts again

[meager granite]

Yeah yeah i know and understand his point, but from a player perspective (mine ofc) it's a non-issue.

[slow needle]

You stated previously you don't want to split the buttons up again Realz. Was there an issue with how lots of rogues interacted with the two buttons that we may not be aware of since most players on this disc are probably more invested than the average rogue?

[balmy condor]

Yeah I know

I still hope for it though

[sharp falcon]

I'm willing to be called out of touch if you'd like, but I have a reason to stand by this for now, and while my mind can absolutely be changed in general, for now that's the decision I've made

[toxic locust]

i think two charges of shiv is a decent enough solution

[marble hemlock]

i think the cooldown reduction on successful soothe would be really nice though. it would open up minor min-max opportunities, like letting DH/DK interrupt before anybody else for slight DPS gains, the same would then apply to soothes and rogues. it wouldn't solve the issue of having to hold it, but youd have to hold and then get rewarded (unless a druid yoinks your soothe )

[toxic locust]

maybe not perfect, but it'd work

[balmy condor]

I think it’s not insane of me to say that the separation of shiv and toxic blade is widely considered the best iteration of the effects

[sharp falcon]

it's imperfect but it does meet the intended goals

[balmy condor]

But it is what it is

[cursive orchid]

what about giving the dispel form shiv to gouge?

[meager granite]

We can agree, but the use will be different from what you would have designed it for. Calling it

[burnt latch]

Id gladly trade my pickpocket keybind for a TTB keybind

[hollow river]

that doesn't work thematically really

[sharp falcon]

I am going to dig deeper into the history and the decisions around it now, though, this conversation is prompting me to do it

[ebon notch]

would shiv having 2 charges be with 1 point in shiv or

would you expand the tree

[sharp falcon]

2 pts

1 class, 1 spec

like step and dance

[toxic locust]

where would it go in the class tree?

[ebon notch]

let us put another point in for refund then

add an extra node

so that in keys we can choose to spec into it

[sharp falcon]

probably replace improved garrote (3sec silence)

[toxic locust]

ahh

would that be baseline part of garrote or removed entirely?

[sharp falcon]

and move the silence duration to the assa talent, 6sec if desired

[deft vault]

will 6sec work in pvp?

[toxic locust]

oo, making it sin exclusive

[sharp falcon]

not baseline

[sharp falcon]

reduced in pvp

[cursive orchid]

on thematically getting your eyes gouged would make you more enraged 😅

[meager granite]

Them m+ openers ! 😮

me liky

[balmy condor]

I like that solution honestly

[toxic locust]

yeah, that seems fine

[marble hemlock]

i think the biggest reason people didn't like the shiv/tb merge, is because it was one of multiple "improvements" to the rogue class as a whole for SL, that benefited sub and outlaw while taking away the identity of assassination.

going from "you get this CD that the other classes dont" to "the other classes also get it, and they can use it for utility while you have to use it on CD or lose dps" was a major step down both mechanically as well as from a spec identity PoV

[midnight mist]

the silence part in the rogue tree is the only thing that make it worth to take garotte for others specs than assa tho

[slow needle]

Gouge is also a nice extra stop. Wouldn't enjoy the choice of gouging a cast or having to save to dispel an enrage.

[toxic locust]

realz already talked about giving sub and outlaw talents for garrote

[ebon notch]

i mean how often in keys have you been like "dw guys i got my garrote silence"

like vanish is the main problem when it comes to garrote silences

[faint harness]

if you play assa, a lot

[marble hemlock]

it was also very uncomfortable to play, as your muscle memory dictated you to use shiv on CD this expac, but on the few rare occasions where you would actually want/need it, you had to remind yourself that you have to do it.

[sharp falcon]

you're not wrong

[cursive orchid]

especially when bte was separated into kindney and current bte

[burnt latch]

Dude ngl im becoming a big Realz simp idk if the other class tree designers are hanging in other discords but our guy is based and active af

[balmy condor]

Garrote also just does damage?

[midnight mist]

idk I dont have garotte im outlaw lol, but I was considering it now

[marble hemlock]

on amarth in NW i probably missed a bunch of soothes cause i was just used to a certain opener or my muscle memory just made me press the button

[balmy condor]

Why would you take garrote SPECIFICALLY for the silence

[faint harness]

m+ reasons

[hollow river]

pvp

[ebon notch]

that was a good change tho

100%

[marble hemlock]

and then youre like "sorry, cant soothe, gotta heal twice as much " on voice

[toxic locust]

yeah, comparing tb/shiv and bte/kidney shot... it added another button but it was definitely the way to go

[balmy condor]

Idk what those letters mean sorry

[cursive orchid]

that is what i wanted to say

[marble hemlock]

i didnt even think about that, but yeah. its kinda funny how they had their utility separated from the damage, while assa had theirs merged. especially since assa already has the fewest amount of buttons 😄

[midnight mist]

I was looking at it for m+, looked interesting

[balmy condor]

PvPers get gouge

[ebon notch]

i mean with dance

garrote silence is going to be fucking stonks

[hollow river]

it's still a part of the game whispyr

[faint harness]

Garrote silence might be too much for sub in pvp as well

not sure

on top of all the other annoying shit

[sharp falcon]

this is a secondary win of taking it off the core tree

[marble hemlock]

i wrote a longer piece on the spec identity issues of assa before SL released, and now i look at this tree and im like "not only did blizzard decide to give assa its spec identity back, they gave us the tools to create our own". thats fucking awesome.

[sharp falcon]

there is such a thing as too much, and everyone-Gouge is already getting dangerously close to that

[toxic locust]

i'd much prefer having gouge over garrote silence if it came down to that

[ebon notch]

idk playing outlaw and the other specs in m+ i was begging for class wide gouge

[sharp falcon]

having the talent only in assa, pvp-multed, will be easier to manage

[ebon notch]

its such a strong spell

but fits in so nicely

[faint harness]

Everyone-gouge is fun for m+ but once again something that's just maybe not great for PVP, tough to balance

[marble hemlock]

im guessing the damage reduction from iron wire was removed for a similar reason? between numbing and atrophic poison, assa already does some very heavy lifting for reducing tank damage

[sharp falcon]

This was done on a whim without a lot of consideration and mostly pve concern around 'raid utility' (why don't people cite this already idk)

[marble hemlock]

too bad numbing poison became useless in SL once DHs started playing perma-sinful brand builds

[burnt latch]

Realz can u please consider removing frontal requirement of gouge in pve content, or possibly make it a talent node. In m+ using gouge sometimes is very annoying when mob is facing tank, and then turns around for a 1.5 sec cast to target lets say a healer, and u fail to gouge that cast

[faint harness]

Get good

[toxic locust]

that's just part of gouge

you can't remove that

[bleak sky]

that's really a skill issue

[slow needle]

Oh! Off topic before I forget. I previously asked about improved Sap and you said it was a C+ choice Realz but it wasn't high on your list to look at. How about instead of reduced energy cost the talent instead expanded the enemy types it can be used against? Just a thought I had.

[faint harness]

cue the Ion clip

[midnight mist]

idk it make gouge something diferrent from every other cc in the game, I think its interesting

[meager granite]

https://c.tenor.com/lOqT02de4UEAAAAd/frankly-thats-a-skill-issue-hazzikostas.gif

[cursive orchid]

😂

[mossy sable]

Gouge ain't that bad to hit

[marble hemlock]

i dont think thats a gouge issue, but a dungeon-design issue. ive spoken about this at length, but in legion you typically didn't have this issue whatsoever because frontals were well telegraphed, you had time to react/dodge them, and youd be able to quickly distinguish the front/back of enemies.

BfA made things a lot worse, and SL improved on it again a bit but the fact still remains that fighting lots of enemies, or enemies that have very similar models, or enemies that are smaller than the player characters, creates a lot of visual clarity issues and having a frontal/back requirement is heavily affected by that

[sharp falcon]

removing a gameplay element that adds texture requires a very high bar. I don't know that this reaches it, as convenient as that would be. Philosophically, I'm probably the wrong dev to ask for this type of change, tbh =p

I'm the guy that made Pelagos Kyrians stare at a monster to get buffed, lol

[languid crag]

My arcane mage has words for you

[toxic locust]

we found him

[sharp falcon]

are they "thank you" ?

[oak sky]

is it possible to get the damage reduction back on iron wire or is that dead because of the new nonlethal poison?

[languid crag]

Of Course

[chilly marsh]

the 20% poison dmg dont need to be stick with shiv. we could move it to thow dagger maybe every 20s your next envenon increase dmg by 20%

[mossy sable]

'Realz has left the server"

[oak sky]

i always thought it was really cool to get that unique DR+ silence

[marble hemlock]

thatd be too powerful

[languid crag]

It's a very cool mechanic tbh

[cursive orchid]

also it needs to be a frontal bc your eye are in front, on the other hand if mobs like abberations have eyes everywhere 🤔

[oak sky]

oh yeah as a 1 point wonder huh

[marble hemlock]

if carnage is supposed to apply iron-wired garrotes, youd basically be providing a barkskin to your tank on every trashpull

on top of 15% attackspeed slow

and 3% dmg reduction from atrophic

[burnt latch]

With the very unreliable and non consistent movement of mobs in this game it just feels bad to miss a cast because u had 8 mobs stacked in a pull and for x or y reason the mob didnt turn the way it was supposed to for the cast. I agree it would be a fun mechanic if all mobs moved and behaved the same way with their hitboxes, but thats just not true or realistic to ask for

[marble hemlock]

youd be suppressing large amounts of damage. its not talked about a lot, but the really good tanks notice that difference

[meager granite]

If we were outlaw rogue we would use the words "thats ok seems balanced"

[cursive orchid]

or shadow dance

[faint harness]

Now i see why you made Shadow Mist

[sharp falcon]

possible only because of how quick I was to remove it, I didn't give it much thought. But my hipfire reaction was to not retain it in a world where Assassin can potentially have dance. People are up in arms about 3% DR Atrophic, it's difficult to justify relatively high uptime Iron Wire DR

[sharp falcon]

indeed. Also the output effect is bad, it will likely change from "Supercharge" to ... something else. idk yet.

[meager granite]

Iron Wire doesnt apply to boss

so people other than us and tanks dont care

or don't even know it exists

[sharp falcon]

i did not know this =x

[balmy condor]

Yeah it’s attached to the silence currently

If I’m not mistaken

[sharp falcon]

oh right

[marble hemlock]

it is

[meager granite]

or my memory is playing me since its a silence linked

[balmy condor]

No silence -> no iron wire

[sharp falcon]

ok i did know that

[marble hemlock]

mobs immune to the silence are immune to the damage reduction as well

[toxic locust]

i'm not really too attached to the iron wire dr, especially with atrophic poison

[sharp falcon]

see, i told you I hadn't thought about it much

it was tack-on effect regardless, but I'll think about it more

[marble hemlock]

but it was still incredidbly powerful. just cause your team didnt notice, doesnt mean it was any less effective. any opener on casting mobs meant those 3 mobs did less damage to the tank, in an expansion with very high tank damage. you could vanish and not only silence mobs, but also apply it to mobs that just did very high damage to random party members, i.e. scribes in SD or flesh crafters in NW

[sharp falcon]

Yeah, Carnage is the other concern

[cursive orchid]

if i am not mistaken you cannot really afford to talent into IW

[sharp falcon]

not necessarily a bad thing but it is a big powerup

[marble hemlock]

having your entire grp take 20% less damage from mobs like that was really damn good. its just that its not something shiny and flashy, but good players notice the difference when they go into a dungeon and suddenly thats not there anymore.

[balmy condor]

having everything interact with everything is definitely nice on paper but in my opinion it seems impossible to balance honestly

[sharp falcon]

in an ideal world, there would exist content where it might be compelling to give up some amount of dps for it (even if it's not most content)

[balmy condor]

like dance empowered garrote into a carnage

just sounds dumb crazy

regardless of iron wire or not

[marble hemlock]

if IW would still provide the damage reduction, youd almost certainly talent it over some DPS talent in m+

[cursive orchid]

this

[meager granite]

And here we have Whispyr shattering our aoe dreams before we got a glimpse of it

[balmy condor]

I mean

I'm sure realz knows

[sharp falcon]

i wonder if a different (read: lower) DR value would still be compelling. Cutting it outright was pretty harsh

[balmy condor]

I'm not shattering anything he isn't already aware of

[meager granite]

I don't disagree with you at all 🙂

[cursive orchid]

frankly you CAN trade it for one stack of EP

[sharp falcon]

I know I'm scared, but I'd rather be scared than boring. TUNING TBD

[cursive orchid]

also it's dependant on tunig as well

[balmy condor]

I wonder if there's ever a world where there's additive modifiers in wow

[burnt latch]

Btw did I understand correctly that 4th row is getting connecting lines? And would that mean that AP is not a dead end

[balmy condor]

to prevent this giga stacking of cds into crazy op

[meager granite]

Yeah but then the opener with ICarnage would be strange cuez you would want to have the 3 improved garrotte and the other target on normal garotte

[sharp falcon]

fever dreams

Yeah I think about this a lot

it makes the world MUCH more complicated for the average player

though, there are some additive multipliers fwiw

(I hope most of them say 'additional' but I bet it's a little inconstent)

Looks like I already fail: "Increase the application chance of your weapon poisons by 10%/20%"

[balmy condor]

I mean even iron stomach was a multiplier and that took vial from 20% to 26% or something

[sharp falcon]

probably should say , "an additional" meaning adding onto the effect as it already exists

[balmy condor]

it's a long standing tradition to add effects that even when you think it's additive, are still multiplicative

[oak sky]

thanks for the answer on iron wire realz sorry im in raid rn

[marble hemlock]

Well, the way I've always looked at mitigation is that it really only matters if its either consistent/on demand, or noticeable enough for a tank to be able to endure taking more meleehits instead of having to kite.

One of the arguments we had in early SL was whether to run crippling or numbing. Most tanks wanted the crippling (until people started playing a frostmage) because the 15% slower attackspeed wasn't enough to keep them alive until their own CDs came back up again.

I think a 10% damage reduction would probably be the same. IW happens on pull, where most tanks have CDs running anyway as they need to build resources. That would lessen its impact already.

So while it'd be nice nice enough to have, the real reason why we played IW currently is that the other talents were linked to Kidney Shot, which is not something we wanted to spend CP on unless necessary. (There were a few dungeons where talenting prey for the extra party damage was good).

[sharp falcon]

with intention? or implementation mistake? it's an easy mistake to make

[balmy condor]

well that's the thing, we don't know if it's intended like that or not because historically we didn't have anyone to ask

[oak sky]

does the silence apply on stealth garrote separately it does doesnt it

[balmy condor]

we have a bug tracker that are like "these are for sure bugs"

but stuff like iron stomach

just doesn't show up on that

I think

!bugs

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue

[oak sky]

because if the silence applies different

[balmy condor]

okay well

there is something iron stomach related

[oak sky]

then it wouldnt apply with carnage

right?

[marble hemlock]

who cares about kyrians, right

thats a more complicated question than it seems

because different skills behaved differently with mechanics like these in the past

[bleak sky]

[languid crag]

is phial just coded or not flagged as a healing pot?

[bleak sky]

more vs increased

[marble hemlock]

i.e. subterfuge works with vanish. shrouded suffocation worked with vanish. subterfuge did not work with shadowmeld (in boss-combat). shrouded suffocation did.

[sharp falcon]

someday in the future when we're closer to launch (like, deep beta) I should go over these and compare to what we have tracked internally

[chilly marsh]

Realz About Zodiac you said you like at the right side of the tree because of the execute synergy but isn't it kind of weird there?

[balmy condor]

some of them are real real old

[chilly marsh]

It's a buff for poison and bleed dmg but all of those are in the center and left side of the tree.

[balmy condor]

but I'll make sure to keep it updated for you with 10.0 bugs

as has been tradition for a couple expacs now

[marble hemlock]

you still have poisons and bleeds going left side. theyre just not as potent.

[chilly marsh]

yes like i said zodiac side dont really have it

[sharp falcon]

it's incidental that it happens to buff poison and bleed damage, the execute part is the important part there. Left is standard AoE, nature damage, execute, and shiv amp/burst windows

[chilly marsh]

oh i think i inverted sides lol

[sharp falcon]

doomblade is on the right side because it's an extra bleed effect which synergizes and matches that side of the tree, even though it uses mutilate to create the bleed and isnt the 'mutilate side' of the tree

[marble hemlock]

theres poison stuff on the left too, i.e. vicious venoms. assuming that would be affected by zoldyck as well, thats a pretty big damage gain. you still have deathmark, and a variety of other poison nodes from the class tree, you can also pair zoldyck with double poisons still if you wanted to.

[sharp falcon]

there's also no perfect way to have zero overlap, there's only so much stuff assassin does at the end of the day, things that could theoretically fit multiple categories or synergies have to go somewhere, and that somewhere has to end up with a tree that is 10 tall, not like 13 tall in one row, 8 tall in another, 11 in the last

[marble hemlock]

its something i talked to whispyr about as well, is that we have looked at zoldyck as the "go-to" m+ legendary and thus it feels odd at first to see it in a spot on the tree where a m+ build cannot go. but thats just us using an old line of thinking, and zoldyck has moved from "the best overall legendary" to a purely st/execute centric benefit.

Whether or not a non-zoldyck build would still do more damage in execute is a tuning issue, not a design one.

[slow needle]

Question about the new stacking poison in Deathmark. What ideally happens if both instances are above 15 and you envenom? Do you get 2 buffs that stack or does 1 essentially get wasted?

[strange python]

Every single time I get no crits with MA up I want to wipe the pull

[sharp falcon]

"where an m+ build cannot go" I think this is perhaps a question of tuning, though I can kind of see how never going past Flying Daggers is something M+ builds might do in current tree

[marble hemlock]

ambushes being able to proc dispatch and having quick access from that side of the tree to get zoldyck as well, seems like a lot stronger execute dps this time around, than what zoldyck provided in SL.

[cursive orchid]

👋 1 cp fok

[sharp falcon]

eat double 15 for DMG x 1.3 x 1.3

[marble hemlock]

well, i think most people would never even consider skipping scent of blood/carnage for m+ at this point 😄

[sharp falcon]

Agree. TUNING TBD

[marble hemlock]

and theres not enough points to travel to 2 ultimate talents unless theyre neighboring ones

[oak sky]

the way i always thought about it is that zoldyck scales extremely well with added targets naturally, so even though its good for execute it cant be bad in m+, like it has to be good

[marble hemlock]

as in, left+middle or right+middle. you cannot go left+right

(unless youd skip deathmark, ig)

[sharp falcon]

I'm likely to add a point of travel to the center section. It's too inexpensive atm

[meager granite]

tuning or not it would need carnage to be very bad not to take it considering the quality of life it represent for aoe

[sharp falcon]

MAYBE TWO

[slow needle]

So its probably worth to try and consume the stacks just before deathmark then since thats an extra 9% damage.

[marble hemlock]

i think in my initial CT+carnage build with double poisons, i had exactly 0 flexible points that could go into utility

all the talentpoints were required to spend to reach those 3 keystones

[sharp falcon]

I'm not sure I understand

[languid crag]

I love me some points of travel

[marble hemlock]

that line of thinking is based in a SL world where almost all of our legendaries were either useless, or purely st-focused, or both.

[sharp falcon]

8 minute CD got it

[marble hemlock]

zoldyck isnt a good m+ legendary. its just the best we had. wanna know what good m+ legendaries look like? you have to look at other classes

[balmy condor]

[meager granite]

then its as good as tea

you can just delete

[sharp falcon]

always tea never carnage

[toxic locust]

tea build is bis, tuning be damned

[balmy condor]

realz is determined to buff tea until we cannot ignore it anymore

[languid crag]

🍵

[marble hemlock]

we saw just how mediocre zoldyck as a legendary power was when we opted to play a vendetta one in its stead due to the 4pc existing, even in m+

[hollow river]

[meager granite]

bbut but but the button bloat?

[fierce hill]

Can we pay you to remove classic andy spells like tea? @sharp falcon

[chilly marsh]

8m tea you summon a army of rogue buttler to thow tea at your enemies

[meager granite]

srry was too easy to say

[slow needle]

I'm being dumb I think. Its late and I think its time to sleep for me.

[hollow river]

[sharp falcon]

You go to relative's house. Lives in England. Offers tea. U DENY?! NO. ALWAYS TEA, NEVER REE

[balmy condor]

I like tea now

[ebon notch]

did the mean rogues hurt you

[balmy condor]

specifically for "ALWAYS TEA, NEVER REE"

words to live by

[toxic locust]

the relative is realz

we refused his tea

[balmy condor]

I'm putting tea into every sample tree now

[marble hemlock]

i think the biggest issue with tea is that im looking at all these new talents and i feel if theres one thing we already have enough off, itll be energy. now i cant say that for certain without actually playtesting it, but between double poisons and 4 bleeds and potentially exsanguinate and all the dashing and VW procs etc., theres really nothing good to do with 100 extra energy

[sharp falcon]

No. But you can convince me (unlikely, but make your case, it will need to be compelling)

[balmy condor]

okay, hear me out

it's bad

[meager granite]

French can't have english relatives sorry. and i dont like tea at all anyway !

[slow needle]

Before I go, Realz. As a tra connoseiur what is your favourite?

[balmy condor]

thank you

[languid crag]

Tea bad, make it Coffee. ✅

[marble hemlock]

https://tenor.com/view/oscars-standing-ovation-clap-clapping-applause-gif-5089552

well said whispyr

[oak sky]

the more targets you add the closer it gets to being a flat 30% damage buff

[storm onyx]

Zoldcyk loses power very fast as the time window gets compressed. thats the issue with it

[marble hemlock]

for 30% of the fight. so a 10% buff.

[oak sky]

yeah i meant during execute of course

[bleak sky]

Please make a compelling argument mr orange name, a blanket statement of "IT BAD CHANGE" is not constructive. Lately we've seen an influx of shitposting in assassination. While we have been lax about off-topic discussions, this is not the place for that.

[oak sky]

obviously we go whatever ends up being point for point strongest

[balmy condor]

A A A ACKTUHALLY WOULD NEED TO BE 33% OF A FIGHT FOR IT TO BE 10%, SO THE EFFECT IS LESS THAN 10%

[marble hemlock]

theres lots of damage that does not work with zoldyck tho

[sharp falcon]

we've talked about tea and I don't want to repeat atm, search history =p

[marble hemlock]

but yeah, for execute specifically, zoldyck has always been good. it didnt see a lot of play this expac, because frankly, there werent a whole lot of execute-heavy fights

[oak sky]

in aoe its just fan but like yeah zoldyck isnt the most insane thing ever

[cursive orchid]

sire p3 memes

[marble hemlock]

it was very good on deny

it was useless on sylv

it was useless on jailer

[hollow river]

could tea be turned into a buff that speeds up regen? instead of an on-use 100 energy

[toxic locust]

could be both

[balmy condor]

this "agree to disagree thing" is starting to get more common I see

[marble hemlock]

most fights no longer had thier most difficult phase as the last one

instead the last one typically was the easiest one

[balmy condor]

[toxic locust]

it has to restore energy because otherwise it's not thistle tea

[marble hemlock]

i.e. anduin/jailer

[meager granite]

Well the issue is, why go tea when SD is there so juicy

[hollow river]

[bleak sky]

what if thistle tea becomes The Mad Duke's Tea and we never take it anyway

[meager granite]

its not even worth the 1 point after sealed fate i think

[bleak sky]

but at least it's a cool tea

thoughts? (please don't give thoughts)

[fierce hill]

Okay listen thistle tea is not tasty what else need to be said, atleast turn it into some good quality black tea.

[toxic locust]

no thoughts, only tea

[balmy condor]

because realz adds a rank 2 to tea called "spiked drink" which makes you go full on the roids and increases damage by 30000% for 5 seconds and then dance isn't juicy anymore

it's just tuning

[sharp falcon]

it could be a lot of things, but this particular idea is a bit too much of a divergence, and especially intrudes too much on the space occupied by Adrenaline Rush. If the key point behind this proposal is to not waste energy, we can come up with other solutions

[slow needle]

Just prayers then?

[marble hemlock]

Instead of granting Energy, Thistle Tea works as a steroid and for a short period when using it, it will grant you more damage while also requiring your abilities to cost more energy. That way you'd be able to really utilize the extra resources generated during your cooldowns. Or a buff that would let you generate an extra Combo Point with each finisher while Thistle Tea is active.

[bleak sky]

that's for schools

[viscid spear]

The worst tea is Subtle-tea

[meager granite]

oooooooh i see, but i was talking current iteration tho.

[marble hemlock]

https://tenor.com/view/popeye-sailor-spinach-muscle-gif-5982865

[balmy condor]

yeah I mean current iteration tea is awful

[cursive orchid]

so it's thistle tea but we can pickpoket mobs to strengten it

[marble hemlock]

so if thistle tea were spinach

[balmy condor]

but that's just how it is

[marble hemlock]

for popeye

[balmy condor]

tea will change

[sharp falcon]

Maybe talenting into thistle tea unlocks extra secret talent rows below it that no one else gets to pick because they're too cool to spec into tea

[balmy condor]

it's a matter of how

[marble hemlock]

[languid crag]

send it

[chilly marsh]

tea cow level

[meager granite]

I think to compete with SD it needs to be something that synergize with our dps cooldown, which tea would not due to energy overload in deathmark

[cursive orchid]

merge tea and carnage

[bleak sky]

Don't feed us FOMO talents

[sharp falcon]

carnage not good enough already

[meager granite]

but we got no points anymore then

[languid crag]

taking tea lets you go UP the tree instead

[marble hemlock]

you know what bugged me about the class tree? is that 2 of the 3 ultimate talents are active abilities, while the middle row has ER in t9 and then a passive following it up to boost it :p

[balmy condor]

okay hear me out, make tea give CP instead (it's not MFD I promise)

[toxic locust]

it'd be kinda cool if it gave both 100 energy and max CP

[ebon notch]

imagine if we had special nodes in the tree that let us go in any direction just for 1 nodes distance

that would be pog

[sharp falcon]

if this is the only thing that bothers you, we're doing great

[toxic locust]

i mean yea we are lol

most of the complaints are so niche

[marble hemlock]

almost feels that if we put shadowdance into t9 and find weakness into t10, and find a cool thing to do with tea in t9+a 2point passive as well for t10, itd look more "same~y

[languid crag]

The only thing that bothers me about the rogue trees is how much better they are than my main's (for now)

[hollow river]

it's not just about energy wasting, but also about button bloat. if it were a longer CD that gave X uptime on X regen it could be easier to use and tune(?)

just thinking out loud, not sure the power budget it'd have in it's current form/what the plan for that is

[cursive orchid]

perhaps it would double the cp gen and then it's SF ... not mfd

[balmy condor]

we're really just being greedy for more. If you just sent the talent tree live as it is currently no one would complain. The trees are super good

well

I would complain

[marble hemlock]

the more i look at the tree the more excited i get about it

[balmy condor]

but that's my entire personality

[sharp falcon]

the rogue trees are more symmetrical and equal-points-pathed than perhaps any of the other trees, I'm almost annoyed you're hung up on this one instance of inversion >_<

Like, go check some other trees and get back to me

[marble hemlock]

oh i noticed, dont worry 😄

[meager granite]

but would you take the tea? 🙂

[marble hemlock]

if theres a 2point in some tier, you know all the others are 2points as well

[oak sky]

bro realz throwing shade at the other devs

[sharp falcon]

it's probably not good that I stick so much to symmetry, I should break it in a few places

[hollow river]

no complaining allowed

[faint harness]

I would quit the game cus i have to play assassination until 11.0 rolls up and its hopefully gone

[sharp falcon]

the opposite really

[chilly marsh]

rogues are are really good theres only some pontual bads

tea and ttb

[marble hemlock]

bye.

[toxic locust]

ttb = thistle tea bad

[hollow river]

[chilly marsh]

tiny tea bad

[sharp falcon]

just saying, symmetry isn't really a tree requirement, mine are way too symmetrical, and STILL someone is annoyed it's not matching enough >_<

[languid crag]

[marble hemlock]

i personally like the symmetrical nature of our trees a lot more. it means i know if i can go this far or with a certain allocation on one side, i can reach the exact same point on another one. makes planning easier and less chaotic.

[hollow river]

[fierce hill]

@sharp falcon is it a coincidence that outlaw is still capped and you are only tagged as assa on this discord?

[sharp falcon]

Better to have people complaining than not caring

[marble hemlock]

but im also one of those people that notices if the gap between CP2 and CP3 is 1 pixel wider than the one btween CP3 and CP4, and then spend 30minutes trying to fix it.

[bleak sky]

based

[balmy condor]

I complain because I care too much

[sharp falcon]

LOL

[bleak sky]

that's what my mom did to me and look where it got me

look where I am

[languid crag]

should change which color you are each day just to throw ppl off

[chilly marsh]

well sin chat is really proactive we come up with lots of ideas and tc

[toxic locust]

a nice byproduct of the spec's 1 apm

[sharp falcon]

I tagged Assassin because it was what I was playing most the moment I happened to join the discord

[meager granite]

sweet sound to my hears

[sharp falcon]

I don't play favorites

[hollow river]

atm we stand to gain 1: Cold Blood 2: Thistle Tea 3: Shadow Dance 4: MFD(we already have in certain builds) as keybinds

[meager granite]

Lets make sure you keep it that way, if you know what i mean

[toxic locust]

i doubt you'll have both shadow dance and thistle tea at the same time

[hollow river]

it's just pointing out examples

not that you'd have them all

but you can have all 3

just saying

[fierce hill]

@marble hemlock

[sharp falcon]

FWIW i find it crazy that Outlaw has the best completion rate for all keys M+15 and higher of ANY SPEC and still think they're bad because capped must mean bad

[marble hemlock]

ill never forgive outlaw for being the reason i no longer get to play WoD combat

[toxic locust]

outlaw being capped is a nice scapegoat for people's skill issues

even when they don't do anything above +15

[meager granite]

The ideas that you brought in gameplaywise with those talent trees are mostly loved i think. We are just never satisfied

[sharp falcon]

it's not a skill issue, they're ACTIVELY SUCCEEDING, the best in a very important category but it's one they don't care about i guess

[marble hemlock]

maybe its so bad that all the outlaws had to buy a boost and thus the completion rate is highest?

[meager granite]

Imagine just pressing 1 button and boom you do aoe. and think your class is bad

[toxic locust]

when you put it that way it is kinda odd

[fleet whale]

Not related to assassination, but out of curiosity, do you have any idea when DH will have their tree revealed?

[sharp falcon]

they have been weak in the past, but it's not a current problem, you'd just think it was

[toxic locust]

a victim of community perception?

[cursive orchid]

you mean black powder?

[marble hemlock]

i think most outlaws just dont understand that uncapping BF wouldnt suddenly make them competitive with hunters or WWs or WLs

[sharp falcon]

not yet

[toxic locust]

soon™️

[languid crag]

[marble hemlock]

capped BF is the least important problem of outlaw

[fleet whale]

I love playing around with different class trees

and seeing what's new

[meager granite]

they can stay weak, i cant believe what they have made me go through during bfa (mostly due to community perception)

[mossy sable]

Guy can only do so much

[meager granite]

at least thats not my ST rotation

[languid crag]

capped BF is like literally whatever

sure you might not match a destro lock but like

[sharp falcon]

the majority of specs don't get to participate in the tippiest of top M+ completions

it's one very small subset of very elite content that most players don't participate in

[mossy sable]

I just get annoyed cause no big number go pew on really big pulls

Also it makes tmog farming annoying

lol

[marble hemlock]

its just people blaming the wrong problem. the overwhelming power and direction the game has been taking with cooldowns in general is the issue, and the fact that none of the rogue specs have a meaningful/powerful CD (which is a good thing, btw)

[sharp falcon]

people tunnel on DPS numbers instead of completion, I get it, it's just funny

[chilly marsh]

talking about m+ is sin getting any buff for s4 realz? its really sad playing sin in m+ right now =/

[marble hemlock]

i dont know a single boomkin that actually enjoyed playing a class that did 90% of its damage every 3 minutes when their CDs were up, and then was utterly useless outside of it

[meager granite]

We are rogues, we dont play for numbers in m+ 😄

[hollow river]

how is that a good thing? actually curious

[marble hemlock]

do you wanna do damage once every 2 or 3 mintues and then do no damage?

[fleet whale]

being too reliant on CDs can turn you into a gimmick

[sharp falcon]

they'd rather do a bazillion DPS on a pull, die on the next pull and fail the dungeon, than to do things that tactically and group comp contribute to more consistent completion

[cursive orchid]

dunno i think assa is fun in m+

[toxic locust]

the real completion was the dps we did along the way

[marble hemlock]

do you want to play a class where pressing all your CDs lets you do 3-5x your sustained DPS, and then fall off like a rock?

[mossy sable]

Yeah nah the one I know prefered moonkin in Legion

He doesn't like this xpacs one

[hollow river]

i mean that's the complete other side of the spectrum and kind of an extreme, i feel there should be a balance somewhere in the middle

[marble hemlock]

cause the dad build in legion was awesome and had lots of sustained damage while still having meaningful CDs - but not overwhelmingly powerful ones

[meager granite]

Realz offered a 8 mins cd infernate carnage ! i Hope it 1 shot the pack when pressed, then no dmg

[mossy sable]

Yeah

[sharp falcon]

okay i'm out, it was useful earlier but now it's all memes and i'm starting to get lightheaded and should go eat something

[marble hemlock]

its also just a meta thing, keep that in mind. the power of the current CDs doesnt just come from their throughput, but from their low CDs (and the seasonal affix further boosts it into that direction)

[toxic locust]

see ya realz

[marble hemlock]

we had a very burst-CD heavy meta in legion as well, and it was later replaced by one that only saw high sustained DPS classes succeed

[hollow river]

appreciate the discussions realz

[marble hemlock]

so we moved from arms warrior/subrogue/mage to assa/warlock/boomie/ww

but the power of cooldowns has skyrocketed over the years

[fleet whale]

it's all about what you do in the opener

[hollow river]

lol

[fleet whale]

for a lot of fights, anyway

[meager granite]

Goodbye Realz, you are the one bringing the topics on the table, we are just here to argue with you and meme

[marble hemlock]

BFA, for the most part, didnt see high burst AoE classes either, btw

its mostly a SL thing

[hollow river]

i for one like the idea of an impactful 2min CD that you can actually utilize for raid utility

not OVERLY impactful of course

[marble hemlock]

enjoy your food realz, thanks again for being around and discussing and answering stuff, makes me really excited for DF

[hollow river]

but taking sub or current sin as an example

[marble hemlock]

much more so than any promotional video or cinematic could

[hollow river]

you don't ever assign rogue CDs

[marble hemlock]

look at it this way

[hollow river]

outside of where you assign like, everyone's at once

[marble hemlock]

vendetta was one of the strongest CDs in the game in bfa

it is now one of the weakest, as a 30% amp pales in comparison to almost all other classes

in bfa we were one of the classes that had their CDs hard assigned for specific targets to solo them, and we were one of the few that did that together with mages and warlocks

[hollow river]

i see

[marble hemlock]

we would hard-carry DPS on stuff like the adds on azshara, the eyes on ilgynoth etc.

[meager granite]

xe had niche utility

[marble hemlock]

pustule on carapace? rogue can solo it

obviously it was a combination of our rental powers and vendetta

[hollow river]

so was that a bad thing? or?

[marble hemlock]

but other classes had those same rental powers

[meager granite]

i dont think so, but it is a player mindset thing i guess

[fleet whale]

Breath of Sindragosa go burr

[marble hemlock]

it wasnt a bad thing, but its the rootcause for the perceived issue people are having with rogue being "bad on aoe". thats not necessarily a rogue-issue, though, but just that most classes have now received similarly or more powerful cooldowns, on a shorter CD, and most fight strategies and boss encounters are designed for it now

we progressed jailer with 1 warrior and 1 hunter, and it was utter pain

[fleet whale]

note that we use the leggo for CDR for vendetta now, so that may have had the impact on the cd

[marble hemlock]

because spear was just so insanely powerful for mindcontrols in p2

[fleet whale]

vs BFA when it was a flat 2 min cd

[marble hemlock]

WW monks basically solo killed adds in SoD on multiple fights. boomies solo carried arrows on sylv. and no other class could do it either

that kind of design is very limiting

[hollow river]

yeah

[marble hemlock]

thats why i love the new cooldowns were getting. no matter how powerful they turn out, they interact and synergize really well with our core toolkit and the other talents. that'll be really fun and feel like a meaningful button to press.

[hollow river]

my biggest issues thus far playing rogue have been when needing to target swap, or aoe in raid like for exmaple being told i need to do more arrow damage on sylvanas

[meager granite]

not your job to carry that part

[hollow river]

i was already doing as much as sin could do to the arrows but it just took forever for RL to understand that

[meager granite]

do what you can if needed

[marble hemlock]

because lets be honest, a CD like wild spirits or spear of bastion really isnt interesting. its just lots of damage and it skyrockets your dps. but does it actually affect the way you play? or is it just a "set and forget" CD

[hollow river]

that's not the point i'm making

[fleet whale]

wild spirits has a visual too that i think some people like about it

[grizzled jay]

that's why war necro banner was so cool imo

[toxic locust]

honestly, for a lot of people damage numbers = fun

[hollow river]

wild spirits has carried a lot of fights

[toxic locust]

they couldn't care less about the actual mechanical interactions

[marble hemlock]

well yeah, but you cant design the game around that 😄

[toxic locust]

yeah thankfully

[fierce hill]

I hope class sets will be useful in aoe and ST. Because if tier sets are like assa tier set right now rip m+ on this specc.

[marble hemlock]

like, weve seen it with necrolords in SL beta

everybody loved SBS when it did ridiculous damage.

when it got nerfed, it played exactly the same, but people suddenly hated it

[hollow river]

it was overly nerfed though wasn't it

or maybe i remember incorrectly

[marble hemlock]

and frankly, people hated target caps for teh same reason. i still believe target caps were a good thing, it was just implemented badly and didnt get enough time to really let encounter designers play around with different types of fights before they went back on that decision

[meager granite]

Well, then the problem lies with the RL game and class knowledge i guess.

[hollow river]

i remember playing sbs in 9.0.5

[marble hemlock]

you still played the exact same with targetcaps, you just did less damage than someone else, which had nothing to do with target caps, but it got blamed anyway

[toxic locust]

target caps were a good idea implemented badly

[hollow river]

this much is obvious, still not the point i'm trying to make

[cursive orchid]

also ww was ripping aoe and capped to 6

[fleet whale]

@toxic locust that's blizzard in a nutshell lol

[marble hemlock]

people blaming target caps when losing to hunters and WWs in aoe when both of those were capped

[hollow river]

[marble hemlock]

they were good cause of how powerful their CDs were (you see how this issue creeps up again?)

[hollow river]

yeah

[toxic locust]

i'm just happy that sin will have actually fun CDs for once in deathmark and shadow dance

[fleet whale]

plus lets not forget that combat was the best cleave class in the game back in MoP... when BF had just a 5 target cap

so clearly, a class can be very good with target caps

[marble hemlock]

and theyll be fun and feel meaningful, even if they do shit dps, cause they interact with the class in a major way

[cursive orchid]

this

[toxic locust]

...i kinda hope realz does something similar for havoc's metamorphosis

i always thought it was a shame that it plays the exact same as out of meta

but with haste

[marble hemlock]

i think DHs are pretty excited right about now cause theyve seen the rogue trees and our reaction to it

[fleet whale]

I still don't think dance will last very long in the rogue general tree,
it will either get neutered for sin/outlaw or removed at some point
This opinion is based on pvp

[toxic locust]

i mean, sub just has way more dance

it shouldn't be too hard to balance...

[marble hemlock]

i was very surprised to see dance in the class tree, i can tell you that much

[hollow river]

Why would it get neutered or removed

[toxic locust]

same, last thing i expected

i'm happy with it but it was wild

[marble hemlock]

idk

[cursive orchid]

they could balance pvp and pve diferently like they already doing it

[fleet whale]

@hollow river sin and outlaw being able to get dance will kill sub in pvpe,

[marble hemlock]

dance feels like a very iconic sub ability to me, and having it for everybody is very reminiscent of what happened to assa with SL

[fleet whale]

no reason to play it

[marble hemlock]

taking away the "uniqueness" of sub

[hollow river]

I don’t think that’s true one bit

[toxic locust]

my thought on this is that as long as sub is clearly the spec with the best dance it's fine

[fleet whale]

sin has had better pressure than sub for years now in pvp

[toxic locust]

like how sin still has the best poisons, the most poisons

[hollow river]

But also it will make outlaw and sin more viable choices

[fleet whale]

and now you are giving it very good control

[gusty mirage]

guys

don't look now

[hollow river]

That just not true and hasn’t been all expansion

[gusty mirage]

but @ebon notch smells

[toxic locust]

@ebon notch 👃

[fleet whale]

@hollow river where were the sub rogues in arena back in bfa, almost all of them were sin

[hollow river]

Sin now in 9.2 has a more effective one shot cheese build, but does not have more actual pressure than sub by a loooong shot

[hollow river]

I said this expansion. I didn’t play back then.