with 1.5sec casttime on poisons that was an easy way to get more aoe or st dam
#assassination
marble hemlock
spice spire
Alt player (derogatory)
half light
you didn't have to renew it once applied?
balmy condor
go eat your haljiakekajejin and go to bed bozo
half light
if that's the case, that was bonkers
balmy condor
WHY AM I GETTING HARRASED
fleet whale
So is there any build you could make to make exsang "good?"
balmy condor
exsang is probably great for the first 15 seconds of the fight during deathmark
spice spire
Then play with the 4p rn
balmy condor
and then you realize it's exsang
and you have nothing to buff it
and then it's a dead button for 2 minutes
half light
what could make exsang good?
oak sky
Better bleedys
fleet whale
@half light corruption
balmy condor
150% bleed damage increase and a juicy ass
half light
reverting it back to the wod one with 400% faster bleeds? jk
gloomy knoll
it increasing tick rate
spice spire
150% bleed damage increase and a juicy ass
Bro?
gloomy knoll
instead of time
spice spire
What has talent day done to you?
kind talon
wait exsang nutty for bfa raid content with 15 second duration???
spice spire
Whispyr ignoring my meme spec dm
He ignores clowns (I’m blocked)
half light
what's the difference between increasing tick rate only and making it go faster?
toxic locust
yeah we only needed 100% of each stat to make it good
dark token
I can't believe they give us the shit covenant abilities that were boring all expac instead of shrouded suffication
grizzled jay
He ignores clowns (I’m blocked)
(assumes VW moves up in tree)
toxic locust
I can't believe they give us the shit covenant abilities that were boring all ex...
i believe we're getting shrouded suffocation
fleet anchor
People been talking about Agonizing Poison for about 5 times longer than it actually existed in-game.
dark token
i believe we're getting shrouded suffocation
Don't see it in the tree
balmy condor
I have tried to make exsang work with current sin (which has more bleed damage btw), 30 second cooldown, 500% increase, capped 126% haste
and it's just bad
toxic locust
lemme get the exact quote
dark token
No shrouded suffication no dragonlands purchase
balmy condor
idk what to tell you
fleet anchor
spice spire
(assumes VW moves up in tree)
Exsang = instant bad
fleet anchor
It was a really short-lived mechanic
balmy condor
if shrouded comes back, then exsang can be good
toxic locust
Don't see it in the tree
balmy condor
if shrouded doesn't come back, probably dead
toxic locust
moving VW up, replacing it with the combo point gen of SS
marble hemlock
i had bigger envenom crits in nighthold than argus thanks to AP
fleet whale
@fleet anchor people have fond memories of NH
marble hemlock
fleet anchor
<@116203458129821697> people have fond memories of NH
I don't lol
spice spire
if exsang is good, I don't play sin
🤨
fleet anchor
I was playing Havoc in NH 😄
dark token
<@116203458129821697> people have fond memories of NH
I have fond memories of ToV where agonizing poison smacked and rogue was good
toxic locust
Don't see it in the tree
that's the dev who made these trees btw
half light
idk what to tell you
so even tho the idea seems nice on paper (at least for some), it's a PITA to make it work?
spice spire
miq also ignoring me
I literally responded 
balmy condor
so even tho the idea seems nice on paper (at least for some), it's a PITA to mak...
it just needs more support around it
dark token
that's the dev who made these trees btw
O nice I like when they are on discord for user feedback
fleet whale
yeah, you just missed him
balmy condor
there is no support for exsang atm
spice spire
KEK LMFAO
half light
ohhh
balmy condor
therefore exsang bad
spice spire
I’m bad
dark token
Even though I would never ever do that myself as a dev cause people are idiots and don't know what they want
spice spire
It’s bad but I can imagine worse things
dark token
I appreciate it
fleet anchor
I have tried to make exsang work with current sin (which has more bleed damage b...
If you don't have a really strong very short CD to fit something into. Or a massive haste snapshot. Exsang just has no numeric value.
balmy condor
yep
grizzled jay
It’s bad but I can imagine worse things
idk i am really liking the idea of giga CP gen with ambush spam
balmy condor
fleet whale
Praise the Master Builder
all who dismiss it, are heretics
half light
so if exs were to line up with a stronger cd, it would amke it work?
balmy condor
it's not that it needs to line up with a stronger cooldown
grizzled jay
A seliathan follower
The goat
half light
or make it more so that it's worth pressing on its own
balmy condor
it's that it needs a cooldown at all
spice spire
fleet whale
balmy condor
exsang is a cooldown that does not work on it's own
if you had something that said "bleeds do 150% more damage for 5 seconds"
then exsang is good
fleet anchor
Abusing a trinket snapshot actually makes it kinda indirectly do what people think it does
Which is generate some extra ticks
fleet anchor
Since you have the haste snapshotted for longer than normal
balmy condor
deathmark is a 2min
toxic locust
true
toxic locust
hmmh
half light
yeah they would never line up well
fleet whale
exsang is just bad
toxic locust
i wish exsang was good but dang
fleet whale
it had its time in the sun
balmy condor
I wish exsang didn't exist
half light
why not?
lucid birch
im an exsang enjoyer
half light
anyone remember legion prepatch exsang
the 400% version?
fleet whale
yeah
half light
that shit was nuts
spice spire
im an exsang enjoyer
U a real one
balmy condor
why not?
it's unintuitive, has unintended quirks, and doesn't really provide meaningful gameplay aside from just having to cast your next bleed earlier
latent hazel
Hey, I feel stupid but where do we get rupture from, I can't see it as a baseline spell nor in the trees
lucid birch
U a real one
fleet anchor
Its time in the sun only existed at a time where we snapshotted giga GCB+Vita haste into pandemic'd Shrouded Suffocation Garrotes and Toxic Blade did nothing because we had no poison damage. 😛
toxic locust
Hey, I feel stupid but where do we get rupture from, I can't see it as a baselin...
rupture is a baseline sin/sub spell, they forgor to list it
balmy condor
Hey, I feel stupid but where do we get rupture from, I can't see it as a baselin...
it's baseline but missing from the notes
half light
rupture is a base ability, isn't it?
fleet anchor
If we went back to Nyalotha now
We wouldn't actually use Exsang
We'd still just use Alacrity
😛
fleet whale
alacrity with haste corruption
balmy condor
like it's difficult to actually say how bad exsang is on its own
latent hazel
Ah ok, I am trying to catch up with the news X) Thanks!
fleet anchor
Exsang only probably generates about 250-350 DPS on its own or something
half light
is it as bad as Glacial Spike for frost mage when it was a dps loss to take it and even more so if you did cast it?
balmy condor
not quite that bad
fleet anchor
Based on Rupture vs. Envenom damage differencial
marble magnet
Do people prefer, Ass, Assa, or Sin?
fleet anchor
If you removed the haste snapshot Exsang would probably never be useful ever
balmy condor
think of exsang not as "bleed go brrr" but instead as "I get to cast half a rupture more instead of an envenom"
balmy condor
Do people prefer, Ass, Assa, or Sin?
EU is more assa, NA is more sin
half light
lol
fleet whale
alright we've talked about bad and meme talents
what do you think will be a sleeper talent?
balmy condor
sleeper op or sleeper boring
fleet anchor
VV
fleet anchor
balmy condor
^
fleet anchor
This doesn't look super sexy but I think it's massively strong lol
fleet whale
idk, that doesnt look like a sleeper to me
sharp falcon
+Ambush? =x
fleet whale
reminds me of the HFC tier bonus a little bit
half light
reminds me of the HFC tier bonus a little bit
what was it?
fleet anchor
Stop teasing
fleet whale
this may take awhile but
fleet anchor
But yes, that would be cool 😄
fleet whale
back in HFC, sin had an ability called dispatch
half light
I just remember sub having to do ambush tons of times and multistrike making you renew rupture very often
oh, the builder for <30% hp?
fleet whale
it was an execute/proc ability and the tier bonus made it deal extra nature damage
fleet anchor
I actually really liked Multistrike for some reason. I was sad they got rid of it.
fleet whale
that scaled with mastery
toxic locust
i just remembered blindside was actually wod dispatch in bfa
half light
yeah
toxic locust
and it didn't interact with anything that affected mutilate
so it was dead in the water
lol
half light
right now it gives you ambush, no?
toxic locust
yup
half light
or something like that
fleet whale
@fleet anchor i liked multistrike too but i think the consensus was that it was crit but worse
velvet ridge
I read VV and I got super excited
fleet whale
yeah, it's a nice talent it seems
fleet anchor
I also have to say that this maybe flies slightly under the radar because of 1/2% numbers
But this seems ludicrously powerful
fleet whale
LD seems great for M+
half light
I also have to say that this maybe flies slightly under the radar because of 1/2...
that one sounds good for aoe
fleet whale
like really good
half light
yeah
velvet ridge
I hated that auto atks were such a large portion of our dmg, I want just poison and bleed
half light
indiscriminate carnage plus that sounds awesome
fleet whale
because think that we have a talent that lets us double our poisons
fleet anchor
Lethal Dose as far as my 
goes actually has to be in contention for the strongest numeric talent in the whole tree
balmy condor
half light
because think that we have a talent that lets us double our poisons
yeah, Dragon-Tempered Blades iirc
but you'd get deadly + instant, no?
fleet whale
i call it "DTB"
half light
down to b...
fleet whale
or wound
fleet whale
or the new AP
fleet anchor
It's what..
half light
isn't the new poison utility? does it replace deadly/wound as main poison?
fleet whale
also note that the new ap does instant poison damage when it gains stacks
fleet whale
the envenom bonus damage is only one part of it
toxic locust
isn't the new poison utility? does it replace deadly/wound as main poison?
there's two, atrophic and amplifying
half light
ahhh
velvet ridge
Dragon is so cool thematically
half light
I thought it was atrophic
fleet anchor
Lethal Dose could easily average out as like a 20% damage talent right now with the right build?
toxic locust
so yeah with dragon blades you can have both deadly and amplifying, both wound and atrophic
half light
I like the poisons
toxic locust
(and of course leeching poison on top)
half light
but I'd love to use exs and not losing so much dmg lol
fleet whale
wait, would sepsis work with Lethal dose?
half light
if sepsis is considered a poison, it should, shouldn't it?
unless it has a list of valid spells or something
balmy condor
yep
it should work
sepsis counts as a poison for most things
but that can obviously change for balance reasons to avoid must-take combos like that
fleet whale
obviously, this build prolly isn't good
but you could have sepsis, CT, DTB, and lethal dose
to add up all that damage
rich raven
That is..a lot lol
grizzled jay
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTAAACKNVaoERUFgRBUwQA
But why
velvet ridge
I just hope all the "per bleeds / poisons" stuff actually works with all the misc bleeds like kidney shot
Does it now?
balmy condor
yes
but kidney doesn't work on bosses obviously
and in m+ there isn't really that much synergy that could work out
like venomous wounds? don't need the energy
scent of blood is rupture only
carnage doesn't work with internal obviously
so you're kinda sitting there with uh
zold?
fleet whale
@grizzled jay to maximize lethal dose
i'm not saying its good, just messing around with the tree
fleet whale
it fits the class fantasy though
balmy condor
yeah but it's like 16% passive damage
imagine if you just perma had a half value vendetta
that's lethal dose
lethal dose is actually so disgustingly strong that it's a DEFINING talent you build around
if your tree does not take lethal dose and +1 poisons you are simply incorrect
fleet whale
yeah they prolly cut it in half
but even if it's cut in half
it's still really good
balmy condor
this talent with double dose literally reads "you may apply 1 additional lethal and non-lethal poison to your weapons. Also you do 4% more damage"
think about that
the talent just has 4% raw damage
tacked on as a bonus
fleet whale
well i hope blizz catches it early and balanced it from there
fleet whale
rather than waiting until a week after the first raid release
and knee jerk nerf sin
warm parcel
An effect like that isnt anything new. And how it likely ends up being balanced again is by limiting it to up to x%
from say 2 only
warm parcel
Which obviously ruins the idea of it
warm parcel
yea
but that also solves the issue of it being too defining
balance at the cost of flavour
fleet whale
8% cap is a good compromise
warm parcel
Also if I had infinite time and were a dev
Something cooler than flat dmg% would rock
fleet whale
that's easier said than done honestly
marble hemlock
1% crit for each bleed, 1% mastery for each poison 
warm parcel
Even crit would be cooler ye as it interacts with spec
Or is seal part of assa anymore
fleet whale
...if you spec into seal fate
which we are going to do
it's a talent in the general tree
but i see no scenario where we don't take it
marble hemlock
my builder build doesnt take it
fleet whale
it would be funny if the builder build ends up being the best
kind of like that snake eyes dagger build for outlaw back in bfa
dark token
and knee jerk nerf sin
I'd rather be op and need a nerf in heroic week than be trash and get a 5% buff which doesn't do shit to make your spec viable so they have to keep doing 5% buffs every month for 3 months
Aka ww this tier, sin first tier
fleet whale
yes but lethal dose as it stands right now is probably going to be tuned
dark token
I can't think of a super op spec that got nerfed heroic week that wasn't still strong in mythic
fleet whale
unless if blizz already knows this and the abilities are already tuned around the talent
shadow tulip
I'd rather be op and need a nerf in heroic week than be trash and get a 5% buff ...
Watch what you wish for, uldir sub is looking for you...
dark token
Outlaw in EN got blasted for sure you are right
It was especially bad because people had committed legendaries
fleet whale
outlaw did come back in trial however
dark token
But I can't think of a recent example
I had outlaw boots and it was more DPS for me to play sin without a legendary in EN
Than to play outlaw with a legendary
Lol
warm parcel
fleet whale
i remember when outlaw boots were the bees knees
dark token
I was very happy when I got them
And then I wore them for the next two tiers
As sin
For stats
I was no longer happy
warm parcel
I got lucky with ring being my lego
fleet whale
i remember outlaw rogues using green run through damage traits in EN
warm parcel
Wasnt ubergreat but at least spec didnt matter
warm parcel
dark token
The spec lock was my most unenjoyable part of legion for sure
fleet whale
second leggo... dreadlords deceit
dark token
If you had a good lego for the first 3 tiers legion was great
warm parcel
cloak here too
dark token
For me, not so much
fleet whale
broken shore mostly fixed the leggo issue for me
upbeat needle
fleet whale
or at least made it a lot easier to get them
dark token
It did for everyone cause you could obtain all Legos in 6 weeks
dark token
I personally prefer high CD high impact abilities
So I like the 2 min vendetta and 1.5min carnage
grizzled jay
Carn may get lower cd if they see we basically need it to compete in AoE in M+ pack to pack lol
dark token
If you are good at picking when to use them they scale super well with stragically planning fights and m+
upbeat needle
wait we'll be able to have shadow dance as SIN?
am I'm looking at this correctly
?????
dark token
Imagine carn said
fleet whale
yeah but i doubt we take it
dark token
3 minute cd
upbeat needle
I see use in PVP
dark token
And all your bleeds and poisons do 100% dmg
gloomy knoll
yea you can just
route around it
if you're playing as sin
it's basically every other pack
upbeat needle
they lowkey showed rogue mad love
dark token
I'd rather have a long af cooldown which makes you a god every couple packs than one you use every pack and you are always a wet noodle
That's what is good in m+
grizzled jay
Rogue has no pick-one talent, not tha much effort
dark token
Cause you route around it
My talent tree wishlist:
Carnage 4-5min CD but has grudge match tacked on @100%
Sepsis resets vanish CD rather than letting you use one stealth ability
Add shrouded suffication in somewhere
Switch tiny toxic blade for kingsbane
fleet whale
SS was basically confirmed to return on this disc
grizzled jay
Imp. Garrote is SS
Just no CP because it cant have the CP as a talent unless it was a capstone
warm parcel
Im on the opposite camp with SS
gloomy knoll
i would despise carnage at 4-5 mins
warm parcel
Not only did I not feel it was appropriate for rogue
Yall wishing for one of the more borked aoe tools to return when youre presented with new aoe tools
dark token
i would despise carnage at 4-5 mins
Picture using shrouded on a 100% dmg grudge match carnage
gloomy knoll
you don't need that though lol
fleet whale
Please don't bring back grudge match
gloomy knoll
routing around a 5 minute cd just isn't possible in a lot of dungeons
and if it is a 5 minute cd it needs to literally instadelete everything in that pack
like red chicken
having a really good aoe ability on a 1-1:30 sweetspot is fine with me
grizzled jay
Yeah Carnage better make the bleeds deal 1000% damage on a 5m lmao
dark token
Eh I miss having good aoe burst as rogue from bfa and legion
We've been consistent DPS class in m+ for ages and it feels meh
fleet whale
Sin will probably never be a burst aoe class
gloomy knoll
outside of poison bomb rng
velvet ridge
I feel like I would have too many buttons with cold blood mfd and shadow damce, just fumble around
dark token
Dfa sub aoe burst was excellent in legion and bfa had both echoing blades and shrouded suffication in s1
dark token
All the classes with high impact longer cooldowns feel great to play imo
WW, old sub, mage, stuff like that
dark token
It is now
gloomy knoll
mage has only been hard 2 minutes
shy dust
WW is a 2 min class
shy dust
Given Xuen is 2 mins yes
dark token
Yeah
dark token
Thats Necro, I was more talking about kyrian ww
warm parcel
2 min recharge no?
gloomy knoll
wait really
dark token
1.5min but 2 charges. Yeah we had a nice sweetspot
gloomy knoll
man i havent played monk in so long
forgot all this shit
but yea tldr
anything 2 minutes or less
is super chill to route around imo
i prefr 1:30ish
dark token
Okokok hear me out, make it 2 mins with a 5-10% grudge match
dark token
2 mins lines up better with most encounters
dark token
Only reason I like ww 1.5 mins is you have 2 charges so you can use asap or hold
warm parcel
Charges are basically cheting in m+ enviroment
dark token
Raid too
warm parcel
You get free cd from downtime
dark token
Carnage 2 charges 
balmy condor
my builder build doesnt take it
I can't wait for sims to come out and it be like -25% or +25%, and nothing inbetween
oak sky
um
why is lethal dose on this tree
this is better than current alacrity
???????????????
balmy condor
thats unreal broken
16% passive damage increase is very strong yes
what's stronger, one dosey boi or 2 shadowlands legendaries combined
fleet whale
the game isn't balanced unless rogues are strong
that's why lethal dose is in the game
dark token
That's cause our shadowlands legendaries weren't particularly impactful compared to other classes
oak sky
ew
balmy condor
in theory yours is probably better for raw st
oak sky
oak sky
and?
fleet whale
i mean if your raid really needs that boss dps...
oak sky
i could see giving blindside for ep for an eye of the jailer type fight
with my build
and dropping doomblade is always easy
balmy condor
or you just do the seli strat
which could be giga shit
and just spam mut and ambush
until you die
oak sky
no covenant abilities in my build 
balmy condor
none in ours either
oak sky
im having more trouble on the spec tree tho
balmy condor
fleet whale
just take lethal dose
oak sky
like i dont see damage gain after i hit cold blood and i have 8 free points
fleet whale
that solves all problems lol
oak sky
dark token
no covenant abilities in my build <:happy_holiday_pepe:908087276544876574>
Funny maybe cause all of them except deathspike were unimpactful and unfun
oak sky
Funny maybe cause all of them except deathspike were unimpactful and unfun
stop being a necro simp
dark token
And I don't see deathspike on the tree
balmy condor
im having more trouble on the spec tree tho
spec tree is rush down the right side to get lethal dose and venom wound, then take the middle to get dragon tempered, season the rest of the points to taste
fleet whale
sepsis is on all three specs
balmy condor
oh
fleet whale
go left
balmy condor
yeah class tree is deadge
fleet whale
on class tree for a while
balmy condor
only bad path is the middle
oak sky
once i hit cold blood
fleet whale
take some stuff in the right
balmy condor
yeah okay so keep going
seal fat
vigor
then go down right side, marked for death, alacrity
gg done
balmy condor
okay
so then go down right side, marked for death, alacrity
and then seal fate
vigor
gg done
dark token
That's one thing I like about Poe trees vs this kinda talent system
oak sky
double step 
fleet whale
only talents you really need in the middle are blind and feint
dark token
You can just go for stuff you want vs needing to spend an arbitrary amount of points
fleet whale
and yes double step is gonna be great
oak sky
can i get a PagMan for double step
dark token
It feels bad to be like welp I got everything I wanted but I have to spend 7 more points to get to the next thing I want
balmy condor
oak sky
i mean
balmy condor
but that's what blizzard wants
oak sky
if only master poisoner
balmy condor
so I guess it be like that
oak sky
yo
i do like some things tho
unlike the dogshit shadow priest tree
we actually are forced to go all our defensives
thats really pog
oak sky
zoldy my beloved ❤️
balmy condor
venom rush is questionable
fleet whale
sub tree may lose out on utility
balmy condor
ttb is questionable
fleet whale
exsang lol
oak sky
whats ttb
balmy condor
zoldy my beloved ❤️
unplayable currently
warm parcel
Im not quite sure why the first 2 rows of "rogue" tree exist
warm parcel
Literally unskippable
warm parcel
And only gives back old spells
balmy condor
zold would be playable in single target
dark token
Only reason I got trialed into a top 100 guild was they were desperate for star augur execute
balmy condor
but then you would have to sacrifice a bunch of other stuff
balmy condor
6 points for zold is a steep cost
dark token
The execute feels so good
oak sky
huh nightstalker
balmy condor
(nerfed)
balmy condor
no way you take any nightstalker points atm with the finisher talent
dark token
Buff zoldyck to 40%/40% but keep it costing a lot of points
Imo
Or add an additional rank
8 points
oak sky
so why put points in mp
balmy condor
dark token
It's very good to have niche execute on demand for certain bosses
balmy condor
dark token
Even if not max DPS build
balmy condor
8 points for zold instead of 6 doesn't sound like the move im gonna be honest
kinda going in the wrong direction
dark token
kinda going in the wrong direction
Why? Its good to have different builds you can spec into if they are better on specific fights
I'd much rather have variation builds where zoldyck becomes very good but it requires a lot of investment
balmy condor
you'd rather buff a 5% talent to 7% by spending more points, losing out on probably 5-6% in the process?
dark token
Having a cookie cutter build you run for everything seems counter to the purpose of these talent trees
oak sky
dude no vial sounds giga depressing
dark token
Yeah? And if a boss was giga hard in p3 but a joke in p1 you would run it
fleet whale
vial is baseline
balmy condor
dude no vial sounds giga depressing
good thing it's baseline?
oak sky
LMAO
fleet whale
the talent is for energy reduction
dark token
Ita ok to have a nonmax DPS build be better for an encounter
fleet whale
yeah that talent is garbage that leads to another garbage talent
balmy condor
Yeah? And if a boss was giga hard in p3 but a joke in p1 you would run it
yeah but you'd end up doing less damage in p3 with your strat homie
that's the whole point
you can put a billion points into zold
if you take nothing else
you're shit
outer arrow
Dude, kinda hard not feel depressed with how things are looking, kinda hard not to feel shafted with the the "choices"
balmy condor
Dude, kinda hard not feel depressed with how things are looking, kinda hard not ...
there's plenty of choices to be made, most are pretty low in impact so you won't lose out on much
but obviously if you're being optimal
outer arrow
the "pick one" options for other classes felt cool, rogue got none of them
oak sky
fw maybe
balmy condor
I mean the "pick one" exists on rogue too
it just looks like this
this is a pick one as well
you have a bajillion choices
especially in m+ it's super unclear what the play is
if you're going to play the most bleeding edge 0.2% dps increase talent tree then yeah obviously you're going to get funneled into a talent build
that's how it always works
outer arrow
does not feel like the same tbh
balmy condor
but this is huge amounts of freedom
outer arrow
multiple ways to get there, feels like freedom
balmy condor
I've had numerous dm's taking this tree and moving like 6,7,8 points around and justifying it with a well thought out position
seli made an entirely different tree
around a whole different idea
marble hemlock
but this is huge amounts of freedom
kinda unfair for EU players, since you US people are already used to huge amounts of freedom compared to us, so you have a big advantage
fleet whale
just fyi druid tree was not well received by druids
outer arrow
want anything from this line? wel fuck you, pick everything from this
marble hemlock
when is anything ever well received by druids? their tears could fill oceans. in fact im pretty sure before god created the heavens, druids created the sea
marble hemlock
yeah
unlucky
the class that currently has EVERYTHING
might no longer get that
really sad
balmy condor
want anything from this line? wel fuck you, pick everything from this
sub, that's one gripe on their tree
marble hemlock
much pity
coarse tusk
gouge seems highly situational for a general raid tree
balmy condor
sin tree atm thought is a MASSIVE W
fleet whale
sub tree has issues with utility
marble hemlock
putting the W into whispyr
marble hemlock
why is there no D in whispyr?
fleet whale
that's a positive
balmy condor
deathmark?
outer arrow
idc if deathmark is mathematically superior
balmy condor
gouge seems highly situational for a general raid tree
it is, but there's really nothing else to grab for 1 point
outer arrow
been attached to the vendetta spell for a while
balmy condor
it's thematically superior
marble hemlock
how? its the most boring and dull ability imaginable
obtuse robin
just a troll
marble hemlock
"deal 30% more damage with all (well almost all) things"
oak sky
wait does iron wire really not have the DR anymore 
balmy condor
wait does iron wire really not have the DR anymore <:besad:507266809431326729>
correct
coarse tusk
can't you just fill out the alacrity?
balmy condor
can't you just fill out the alacrity?
not useful
marble hemlock
you can but why would you
fleet whale
not worth it
oak sky
damn iron wire was so cool before
fleet whale
if a fight lasts longer than 20 seconds
marble hemlock
you can easily maintain it at 2/3 points
fleet whale
you don't need 3 ranks of alacrity
oak sky
although i guess iron wire basically got grandfathered in as our raid buff
coarse tusk
i think its worth more than gouge
balmy condor
i think its worth more than gouge
then feel free to take your extra 6% chance for a haste buff that you already have, that is your decision to make
you have that freedom
fleet whale
is 2/3 alacrity gonna be the hot topic on this channel?
lucid birch
marble hemlock
no, hot topic is gonna be generator build vs bleed/poison build
balmy condor
it's been that and why CT in raid tree
lucid birch
bobs build
outer arrow
it's thematically superior
to each their own ig
oak sky
honestly my most hyped thing is that blizzard wasnt actually lazy and gave us smoke bomb or tricks external
marble hemlock
deathmark has pretty decent interactions with like 4 different talents
vendetta is just a bland amp that has no interactions with anything beyond giving that amp to whatever is whitelisted
fleet whale
ok, then you would take nighstalker lol
coarse tusk
i would argue that nimble fingers is more valuable
fleet whale
that would be more dps
grim tangle
I like current nimble fingers, but at 5 energy only it's not very good
balmy condor
see this is the beauty of the talent tree
balmy condor
we're going to argue all expansion whether 5 energy on vial is worth more than gouge
a real gentlemans debate
worn panther
HELL YEAH
fleet whale
didn't this debate already happen in SL?
balmy condor
didn't this debate already happen in SL?
FUCK YOU MY UTILITY IS WORTH MORE THAN YOUR UTILITY
dark token
You never press vial since it costs DPS so gouge the play
fleet whale
nimble fingers being a dps increase? lol
marble hemlock
unless thats already been addressed
whispyr probably knows
but to me "first 3 rows" means this
balmy condor
now here's the real question, any guesses on whether two shadowsteps is more dps than -5 energy cost on vial/feint?
marble hemlock
depends on the fight
balmy condor
http://puu.sh/JabAA/f23cdae5f5.jpg
correct
gloomy knoll
nuff said
marble hemlock
obviously
dark token
now here's the real question, any guesses on whether two shadowsteps is more dps...
Oh for sure on the average fight, uptime is king
fleet whale
lol i'm taking two steps
balmy condor
two extra mutilates
you're casting TWENTY VIALS AND FEINTS A FIGHT?
fleet whale
and no one is stopping me
balmy condor
esra just fucking slamming all his defensives on cooldown
gloomy knoll
you're casting TWENTY VIALS AND FEINTS A FIGHT?
depends on the fight but
balmy condor
cooldowns on cooldown
dark token
Remember when sprint would make you cast feint in legion
gloomy knoll
1 mutilate
balmy condor
that's literally half as much as you just said
dark token
Fun times
marble hemlock
esra just fucking slamming all his defensives on cooldown
he has nothing else to spend energy on while on the bench, only crimson vial/feint can be cast without a target
dark token
Same
balmy condor
mutilate doing 7k damage at most?
gloomy knoll
1 mutilate in an encounter is more than gouge
marble hemlock
mutilate doing 7k damage at most?
gloomy knoll
balmy condor
easy 15 dps gain from pressing your defensives on cooldown
I agree
very based mr esra
outer arrow
My issue with Deathmark is that it's not a choice, you cannot spec into DM, you either get it or you dont have a major CD, replace gives the idea that you have one thing and change it for another thing, but you dont, you simply do not have vendetta anymore
coarse tusk
but those are buttons you press vs gouge
dark token
It's more being able to press a defensive at lower energy if you were caught there
Is the utility of that
balmy condor
when a sim has a bigger margin of error on your talent for abilities that it doesn't even fucking use
dark token
Not the DPS increase
fleet whale
@outer arrow every class has to talent into their big cd
balmy condor
I don't think you can really argue a dps increase
fleet whale
at least from the trees we have seen so far
gloomy knoll
mutilate is 50
marble hemlock
My issue with Deathmark is that it's not a choice, you cannot spec into DM, you ...
vendetta isnt a choice either, so how is this any worse?
gloomy knoll
so if you cast 10 feints
at 5 energy saved
that's 1 mutilate
definitely achievable
balmy condor
+15 dps
gloomy knoll
in a long fight or one that has tons of feint bullshit
balmy condor
now what
gloomy knoll
honestly
balmy condor
you guys are actually sick in the head
outer arrow
<@192413090975973377> every class has to talent into their big cd
its the fact that you cannot choose to have it
balmy condor
i'd go master poisoner
the tree already takes it
gloomy knoll
oh you already take it and gouge
outer arrow
what harm could:
Choose one Vendetta/Deathmark
do?
balmy condor
would you rather cc an add with something that rarely DR's
marble hemlock
what harm could:
Choose one Vendetta/Deathmark
do?
that they do the exact same, only one of them would be straightup better?
outer arrow
not entirely true
fleet whale
@outer arrow your overstating how much choice these other classes have
marble hemlock
they are both pure singletarget cooldowns
gloomy knoll
wait in you're graph
you can literally take a dps talent further down
@balmy condor why is it taking gouge and mp
marble hemlock
one of them will end up being a 5% damage increase overall, the other one maybe 6 or 7%. theres no choice there, other than wanting to play the worse talent. doesnt matter which one comes out on top, neither of them have any implications beyond single-target (not entirely true for deathmark but for the sake of the argument lets roll with it)
neither of them require you to play around them in any way. you press button, you do more damage. thats the end of it
dark token
Wait holy shit took a look at the class tree for once
balmy condor
because it's a general setup and that one point does not provide a significant damage increase anywhere else on the tree
dark token
Acrobatic strikes is gonna be so pog
balmy condor
I feel like a broken record
fleet whale
I don't think were taking Acrobatic strikes as sin
gloomy knoll
i mean there's no way you'd take gouge over nightstalker or thistle tea in raid
even if both of them aren't amazing
outer arrow
idc if deathmark is mathematically superior
@marble hemlock you probably didnt read this one comment
fleet whale
have to take too many talents in the center row to get to acrobatic strikes
marble hemlock
you have yet to provide an argument what makes vendetta superior from a pure gameplay/cosmetic PoV
fleet whale
and too many of those talents are ass
obtuse robin
and too many of those talents are ass
they are def not ass just dont have the points for them
marble hemlock
or what makes deathmark worse. the only argument so far was "i dont like it", which is fair i guess, but people typically know why they like something or dislike something
fleet whale
vendetta is thematic because you raise your arm up when you cast it.
But i do understand having some sentiment for past abilities
dark token
Not gonna lie can't believe anyone actually liked vendetta as a spell lol
outer acorn
i feel like rogue has the weirdest class tree out of all classes shown until now
fleet whale
Dratnos had it as like a B tier cd lmao
coarse tusk
i think its better gamplay pov. You're not stuck hitting the target after using deathmark
outer acorn
so much stuff overlaps in class + spec tree
coarse tusk
You can actually just drop it and hit something else
outer arrow
hitting bigger envenoms felt cool
fleet whale
good thing we have a new talent for that
dark token
The 20% was so invisible I never actually noticed bigger numbers on anything lol
marble hemlock
if you want big hitting abilities, assa might be the wrong spec. also, you now get a talent that lets you hit bigger envenoms than before (which, coincidentally, provides a 30% damage increase to envenom, just like vendetta)
considering we rarely even get to use envenom during vendetta right now thanks to the set bonus, this argument seems very weak
dark token
Having your class defining CD being a pure single target always felt bad with vendetta, it having a generic invisible effect was worse
marble hemlock
last time envenom hit hard was with TTK during BfA, or in Legion with agonizing poison
neither of which had anything to do with vendetta tho
outer arrow
among other spells
marble hemlock
for it being a new cd, it will barely feel different than just hitting vendetta, other than seeing an increase in energy regeneration (which is really no different than the surge of energy you get at the start of vendetta, so even that will feel very similar)
if it had the same icon most people wouldnt notice the difference until they looked at the debuffs on the target.
dark token
If it interacts with lethal dose don't you get a flat dmg % from it too
marble hemlock
yes
marble hemlock
its just a better vendetta, really
fleet whale
it also is a little better for target swapping
marble hemlock
thematically its more interesting, and it has synergies with other parts of the kit and talents
fleet whale
illusion of choice
marble hemlock
because giving you 2 single-target cooldowns with one being objectively worse just "for teh sake of having it" is no choice at all. what point does it serve other than that you would like it there?
outer arrow
ok following that line
marble hemlock
i could make your argument of "just offer an objectively worse choice" for every single talent on the tree
outer arrow
is ambush a button that you press?
oak sky
gonna miss that vendetta icon
marble hemlock
why only a 70% sprint when you could also offer a 50% one
and let people choose between the 70% and the 50% one
fleet whale
@oak sky just macro the old icon over it lol
marble hemlock
what harm is there in having 2 different sprints
outer arrow
why only a 70% sprint when you could also offer a 50% one
you could if they had distinctions, lower CD for example
fleet whale
i've done that for abilities before
oak sky
yeah but then i look like a boomer
fleet whale
including exsang, since the current icon is so ugly
oak sky
im no boomer
marble hemlock
where is the distinction between vendetta and deathmark?
they have the same CD. they do the same thing, being a single-target DPS increase.
outer arrow
interactions between spells
marble hemlock
you mean that vendetta has none
dark token
If my calculations are correct deathmark gets a 10% dmg increase from lethal dose so it's a neutered vendetta anyway
marble hemlock
and deathmark has many?
fleet whale
I can only see pvpers maybe being upset with vendetta being gone
dark token
And an additional nicer effect
outer arrow
is ambush a button that you press?
@marble hemlock
outer arrow
ok so
marble hemlock
no, you dont press ambush
outer arrow
why have a mediocre talent that enables ambush on execute?
marble hemlock
because if you talent that talent, you use ambush?
chilly marsh
If my calculations are correct deathmark gets a 10% dmg increase from lethal dos...
you get even more with dragon blade
dark token
Gives rogue an execute niche as well
fleet whale
people have wanted vendetta gone since MOP,
now that vendetta is gonna be axed, people are already missing it, classic lol
outer arrow
theres zoldyck
marble hemlock
talenting blindside gives you a free ambush so obviously you use it when you decide to talent it. its just that right now, the tuning makes other options stronger, so you dont talent it.
2 execute mechanics are better than 1, wouldnt you say?
echo geyser
@balmy condor hi whispyr is the envenom extend snd 1/2 cp a big diff?
balmy condor
yes
echo geyser
echo geyser
is the current baseline 2cp?
outer arrow
to get to blindside you gotta take main, mangle
balmy condor
current is 3 I believe
dark token
change it to rupture extends also, annoying pressing evenom in m+ to maintain
fleet whale
but DM does interact with those abilities
dark token
Poison bomb was changed to rupture as well for feel good reasons, it wouldn't really be a DPS diff to have rupture maintain the spell too
harsh anchor
<a:prayge:954516408329445487> change it to rupture extends also, annoying pressi...
extendo all carnage bleeds too? 
fleet whale
since it lets you cast them more
marble hemlock
not ALL talents need to interact with it. and DM gives you more energy, which allows you to cast more mutilates, and gain more blindside procs.
not all talents need to interact with every single other talent
that would be an absolute balancing nightmare
harsh anchor
you know what ignore me, I can't read
marble hemlock
what difference?
fleet whale
Vendetta became overrated since Legion since many Youtubers were calling it the "utilitarian ST cooldown"
Dratnos had it as a b tier raid cd for example
marble hemlock
deathmark gives you more damage on all your damage through lethal dose
because it adds more poisons and bleeds
you get more damage on all damage from lethal dose
including ambush and mutilate
outer arrow
where is the distinction between vendetta and deathmark?
.
half light
what could make vendetta more interesting?
for pve, for pvp it's nice having always vision of your enemy
harsh anchor
deleting it like they're doing in df
dark token
It being a 20% dmg buff isntead of single target 20% debuff
Would make vendetta more interesting
marble hemlock
you think you showed a distinction, but you didnt. both talents increase the damage of your other abilities?
half light
deleting it like they're doing in df
what
marble hemlock
both talents increase your single-target damage.
outer arrow
they interact in different ways
marble hemlock
so why not come up with 17 other cds that also have very minor but different interactions, so we have more choice?
even though one of them will be better than the other 18
outer arrow
you provided an example, why having a 70% sprint vs a 50% sprint?
echo geyser
@balmy condor isnt doomblade dot good
marble hemlock
as they all fulfill the exact same purpose
outer arrow
doing similar thing, achieved on a different way
balmy condor
<@167090536602140682> isnt doomblade dot good <:disapawnted:821046992431087616>
it's fine
echo geyser
have to remove 1 point of the snd
marble hemlock
why would you ever chose a 50% sprint when the alternative is a 70% one?
thats just bloated abilities that no one in their right mind would pick
chilly marsh
what would be the diferrence in uptime of snd 1/2 points ? 2 is 100% right
marble hemlock
why waste development resources on that kind of thing?
outer arrow
depends, if the 50% sprint had a shorter CD or, idk, removed slows
marble hemlock
but that is not the same as comparing vendetta and deathmark
half light
burst of speed lmao
marble hemlock
both serve the same function
half light
that shit was op
marble hemlock
both are strictly singletarget CDs
chilly marsh
maybe its worth needing to cast snd again 2-3 times in a fight
outer arrow
i remember burst of speed
marble hemlock
deathmark is superior to vendetta in every conceivable way
outer arrow
broken ass talent
echo geyser
seli did u sleep
half light
I remember CTF bgs, fc were rogues or dudus lol
marble hemlock
at some point i did, ye
echo geyser
dont exhaust urself with vendetta vs deathmark
marble hemlock
slept like 3hrs yday
marble hemlock
so im good
echo geyser
3hr
outer arrow
ik that with lethal dose, DM is essentially 8% vendetta
marble hemlock
as i said, its fine if you dont like the new stuff over teh old stuff. i can sympathize with that. but deathmark is just a straightup better cd in every single way.
dark token
And it feels the same to use lol
half light
push and forget? lol
marble hemlock
itll do more damage on singletarget, itll give you more resources to also do more aoe at the same time if you wanted, it doesnt lock you to a target for 20 seconds, it synergizes in interesting ways with other talents
its virtually the same. press button, do more damage.
half light
I liked when you had knives throwing to the vendetta target, dunno if it's still there
marble hemlock
and youre asking for it to be a choice talent to choose between it and vendetta, despite both filling the exact same purpose, with one being superior in basically every single way than the other. what kind of choice is that, other than "yeah well but i want it"
dark token
That sound effect tho
half light
still, it felt almost the same: push and more dmg and that's it
yeah the sound effect was awesome
oak sky
they didnt have to rename vendetta they couldve changed it but i can see why they did for clarity
dark token
and youre asking for it to be a choice talent to choose between it and vendetta,...
If there was a glyph to change the spell icon to old vendetta no one would notice
chilly marsh
bufff last longer than vendetta too
dark token
Lol
marble hemlock
i compared it to a 50% sprint that lasts 8 seconds and a 70% sprint that lasts 8 seconds, both of which have the same cooldown, because that the closest analogy i can make
oak sky
If there was a glyph to change the spell icon to old vendetta no one would notic...
yo they should do that tho
marble hemlock
this isnt "but vendetta does something deathmark doesnt". its literally just worse.
half light
but deathmark is more flexible, isn't it?
outer arrow
and youre asking for it to be a choice talent to choose between it and vendetta,...
that is essentially what alot of "chose one" talents do, on the new trees for other classes
chilly marsh
20s vendetta vs full duraton of rupture + garrote and poisons