assassination

[hollow river]

i don't think it'll be too bad

[shadow bluff]

[hollow river]

sin is fine for doing plenty of keys

[hybrid vale]

I’m maining a pally rn but yeah. Thing I don’t like about m+ is I’m gonna have to learn all these dungeons optimal routes and things and this expac doesn’t last much longer

I like to research these things before going in to avoid looking like an idiot

Dying to mechanics etc

[hollow river]

yeah most of us have been doing them for a long ass time

but it's not too bad if you just take your time and build up key levels

[hybrid vale]

All the trash mobs do something diff, there’s always weird environmental things like that little force field in temple of Seth from bfa

[slow marsh]

Tbh

If you're running 15s

It doesn't matter

[ebon notch]

@limber lion jailer kinda comfy tho

ur gonna enjoy this

[hybrid vale]

Hmm that’s good to hear, I’ve been avoiding mythic + bc I’m anxious about that sorta thing. Being the one guy who doesn’t know this one thing that wipes the group

[shadow bluff]

Just practice man that's all It takes

[slow marsh]

You not doing something in a 15 is almost never gonna wipe the group

Tanks carry quick 15ers and as long as they know what they're doing you can afk and still time it

[hybrid vale]

Ok, well that could help expedite the gearing process then

[bleak sky]

nothing is stopping you from watching keys on youtube and learning

or going into MDT to learn what mobs do

[ebon notch]

yeah its literally just knowledge

[brazen zodiac]

really pog thing tbh

[hybrid vale]

Yah I could but it’s alot of work for just one patch, I studied all of them for bfa

[ebon notch]

most people were playing since the beginning

and inting it over and over to learn

[hybrid vale]

And was really good @ m+

[ebon notch]

you can just watch vods and read and ull be fine

[zinc frost]

Just don’t do MDI pulls lmao. We did a 23 gambit and the tank decided to pull all the murlocs into a giant and doesn’t kite during necrotic ggs

[slow marsh]

Just can also just take your m0 key and push it all the way to a 15 and by the time you've pushed it you'll know what everything does, it just does the same thing but more damage

[hybrid vale]

I could

[bleak sky]

it takes 0 time

[hybrid vale]

Study just 1 or 2 dungo in depth

[limber lion]

thanks for reminding

[bleak sky]

what in depth

[hybrid vale]

And then just sign up for those

[bleak sky]

it's a 15

just run iti

like

[slow marsh]

^

[limber lion]

I'll enjoy it in a few months

[subtle tundra]

only time 15s have been easier than now was bfa 8.3

[bleak sky]

if you were really good in wow an expansion ago it's not a different game

[ebon notch]

itll be faster than that bruh

[subtle tundra]

they are VERY easy

[bleak sky]

a frontal is still a frontal

[ebon notch]

dont be dobby

[bleak sky]

a green puddle is still bad

like

it''s literallly the same game

if something is called "DEATH ABILITY" while casting probably kick it?

or kidney

[hybrid vale]

Ya

[slow marsh]

dang imagine kicking in a 15

you really gaming

[hybrid vale]

I’ll be healing them

On my pally

If I do it

[shadow bluff]

I think you're in the wrong discord

[hybrid vale]

So if I did grp dead

[shadow bluff]

We bleed people here

[slow marsh]

We top overalls then meme the rest of the dps for allowing us to top overall as sin

[hybrid vale]

Ya Ik I wanted to play rogue but a guild I used to raid in needed a heal

He’s still progressed

[steel ridge]

m halondrus prog is just mending the poor melee soul

[hybrid vale]

Up to my pal

My rogue raids in a guild that’s just starting heroic tho pog very wholesome experience

[ebon notch]

we saw p2 jailer first night

POG

[hybrid vale]

Ya better than no guild for him

And he’s top dps

[bleak sky]

wdym

[oblique tulip]

can you cloak jailer mc lines p1 ?

and stand in 2

[obtuse robin]

u can cloak p1 mc yes

[torn atlas]

Yeah don't try to last second cloak p2 MC haha

[steel ridge]

just seeing our warlocks suffer

ofc its hell on earth in melee range xD

[bleak sky]

The mechanics don't exist for ranged players

[steel ridge]

but just hearing them cry is so good

[bleak sky]

Why are your warlocks suffering

[steel ridge]

dunno

[bleak sky]

Doesn't make sense

[steel ridge]

they cry

probably because of the intermissions

[solid mica]

Probably cause warlocks are wheelchair

[steel ridge]

so far enhancer, feral and rogue are kinda carrying the damage

[thin trout]

anyone else almost full 278 but still 252 and 259 daggers

i dont even know how

[subtle tundra]

maybe valor upgrade

[thin trout]

i've done 80 M+ so far

[steel ridge]

the raid daggers are shy yeah, havent had any luck so far

[thin trout]

like what am I suppsoed to feel :

😢

[raven knoll]

I did 14 plaguefall runs today and yesterday and still no Phial. I'm slowly losing my mind.

[thin trout]

atlest any agi user can get the phial and u can trade it basically

daggers is only rouges

😢

[steel ridge]

yeah getting daggers is a pain

[thin trout]

but still 14 runs suck

[raven knoll]

If only it dropped I haven't even seen it drop once 😄

So I feel your pain. Daggers are more important then phial

[sharp mountain]

!cache

[prisma monolith]

Cache of Acquired Treasures usage:
Axe is always the strongest weapon.
Note: The Weapon rotates every 12 seconds in the order Sword -> Axe -> Wand

[limber lion]

Okay Jailer is dead poggies

Do I get to play the game again?

[bleak sky]

hall of famers ezclap

[limber lion]

no breakerinos pls

go in

[bleak sky]

not even close

[limber lion]

[hollow river]

gratz to the team

[glass tulip]

Horde 84, not even close

huge POG

[oak sky]

Famed slayer of the jailer ceverion

[bleak sky]

famed slayer of the banished one

you pleb

[tight ginkgo]

what a mouthful

[empty hinge]

grats @limber lion @faint harness

[limber lion]

famed bane of the banished one

you pleb

[bleak sky]

damn wowhead lying

spreading misinformation

[glass tulip]

ceverion is a mouthful

[limber lion]

you know it

[tight ginkgo]

[ebon notch]

I TOLD YOU

[limber lion]

Doesn't mean that I'll kill the Jailer in a few months

[ebon notch]

how many pulls?

[ebon notch]

you will kill it within the next 2 weeks

[limber lion]

250ish

[limber lion]

nope

we do one raid next week just chilling

[ebon notch]

bet?

[limber lion]

sure

[ebon notch]

oh

[limber lion]

1000000000000000000000000000000000 dollars

[ebon notch]

next 2 weeks of actively playing

[limber lion]

bet

[ebon notch]

nah

no breaks

actively playing

[limber lion]

we don't do breaks

that is active play

1 day a week during farm

[ebon notch]

its not farm yet but ok

[limber lion]

?

[ebon notch]

i change my offer

3 weeks

[limber lion]

what is farm then

are you saying we're progressing

even after killing every single boss

[frosty bridge]

oh shit

@faint harness @limber lion gz!

just checked HoF

[limber lion]

ethical kill as well

[ebon notch]

i mean technically you're right

[limber lion]

no cheaterinos here

[ebon notch]

but its not what i meant

but fair

oh you killed the shield?

[limber lion]

yes we didn't skip

ethical kills only

[ebon notch]

huge

[limber lion]

would have killed it 2 raids ago probably if they abused the bug

[timid cloud]

Cev is free.

[limber lion]

but that's lame

[timid cloud]

Free from the grasp of The Jailer.

[limber lion]

Oh I've been free for a long time

[ebon notch]

he killed the jailer from a distance

[limber lion]

Freedom was starting to suck

I'm ready for jail

SLG jail next patch

[ebon notch]

[timid cloud]

SLG with affixes!

[jade abyss]

How is the optimal use from cache on ST?

[limber lion]

axe

[faint harness]

thx

[jade abyss]

Thanks

[torn atlas]

Seems they got bumped to 101?

[bleak sky]

Rip bozos 101

[frigid girder]

Okay boys I have serious

We have this rogue in the guild

WHO INSISISTS ASSA is superior over sub

CAN SOMEONE for the love of god tell me this is not true and nothing but personal preference

[ebon notch]

@limber lion help

my officers are bullying me

[frigid girder]

@ebon notch and here the man himself comes

[barren coyote]

isnt assa simming more than sub now?

[limber lion]

true on some bosses, not true on some

[frigid girder]

how about jailer

[solemn cave]

how about anduin

[limber lion]

Assa probably better

[frigid girder]

weird

jpc said something else

[limber lion]

Yeah and JPC killed the boss like 6 weeks ago

when Assa was dogtier

Shit has changed a lot since then

[zinc frost]

Neither rogue spec

[oak sky]

anduin has to be the worst rogue boss in the raid

[zinc frost]

Good for the bench

[hollow river]

For jailer they’re basically the same

Sub likely better if you’re struggling with the bits of aoe

[solid mica]

You just run double on use and tell the raid your critical to killing the monstrous souls cause you blow it all there

[faint harness]

Shadowstep makes the fight easy mode

[hollow river]

Yeah that too

[faint harness]

But ye its fully doable as assa too ofc

[hollow river]

Ye any fight is

[oak sky]

sin has nice passive aoe so its whatever

[hollow river]

Nice passive aoe

[grim nacelle]

Really? I think it’s a blast, we shred the tank add , we can be instantly on any of the fear adds, emergency blind if / when some jack hole breaks cc, funnel dmg is silly on lich phase

[faint harness]

Also assa does nothing on the mcs

[oak sky]

true

[faint harness]

Which is kinda important

[hollow river]

Yep

[oak sky]

objectively speaking i think rogue is weaker on anduin than on any other fight in the raid, you can enjoy whatever you want

[faint harness]

But then that, assa should be waaay higher boss dmg

Cus of the p3 juice benefitting assa more

[hollow river]

So what you’re telling me here

[balmy condor]

the funnel damage is very overstated here

[hollow river]

Is that assa scales better with stats?

[faint harness]

Well haste does nothing for sub

So ye

[hollow river]

[oak sky]

more white melee

[faint harness]

Idk i had a god awful pull on our kill, but sub might be better overall

Cus of sylv daggers and p4 being the way it is

Just execute for the entire phase

[fossil slate]

What are the best fights for sin this tier?

[balmy condor]

lords for sure #1

[limber lion]

Especially with secret tech

[balmy condor]

then it's kinda all the single target bosses, skolex, halondrus, jailer (even though you don't really do add damage)

[hollow river]

secret tech

[limber lion]

Sin honestly really good on every single boss, except Anduin

[balmy condor]

yeh

sin and sub honestly fill very similar roles

but sin is much better 2-3 target

[limber lion]

Yeh, just play your fav spec king

[balmy condor]

and sub is better aoe

you can even play outlaw

[limber lion]

Go have fun

[balmy condor]

spec identity

[ebon notch]

what tech

[limber lion]

Wouldn't be a secret if I shared, would it?

[hollow river]

Probably just necrolord Zoldycks or something

[limber lion]

How's that a secret

That shit slaps

[zinc frost]

I’m pretty sure now that your guild has killed jailer, you have to release all secret sin tech to us pls.

[limber lion]

I'll do that once I'm 11/11

!remindme 2 months

[glass tulip]

!remindme 10.0 release day -1

[solid mica]

!cev'ssecrettech

Venthyr deathly? Kekw

[zinc frost]

[oak sky]

hes probably tossing sbs on the add insta or something

[solid mica]

Or all the raid during peekaboo phase

[oak sky]

nah not that one

[limber lion]

Yeah, as you should

[oak sky]

even when its healing right

[limber lion]

Yes

[oak sky]

cp

[limber lion]

And a free resetterino when it dies later on

[oak sky]

theres obviously more

we'll get there

[solid mica]

Faeries maybe

Maybe @faint harness knows 👀

[faint harness]

Knows what?

[limber lion]

We don't get externals

[faint harness]

Yea

[balmy condor]

the hidden tech is just simming 16.5

just get gear

7head

[solid mica]

Lol tru

[limber lion]

Fuck I've been had

[faint harness]

Ive spread the ”we suck with externals” propaganda for all of shadowlands

[limber lion]

Doing the good work

[solid mica]

Imagine having daggers higher ilvl than sylv

[balmy condor]

step 1. play good
step 2. get good gear
step 3. that's literally it
step 4. big dam

[hollow river]

When the priest is dead set on PI and Faeries’ing you

[faint harness]

Only old KA was actually nice

[hollow river]

And you’re playing SUB

[slow needle]

B-b-but if thats all I can't blame the priests for not PI-ing me or druids for not Ka-ing me.

[balmy condor]

I actively yell at priests in pug keys when they PI me just because I'm top damage

[bleak sky]

"never pi sub you fucking twat"

[balmy condor]

silence warlock

[bleak sky]

Actual words I've seen it

[solid mica]

I would but I have this sick wa when I get PI that's enjoyable

[bleak sky]

Mine is a clown horn to remind me there's a clown in the party

[slow needle]

... how do you know my main this patch?
It also makes me sad because we have 1 priest and the other lock gets the PI.

[zinc frost]

I got PI in a pug key as sub.. man all that haste ooft. Huge.

[balmy condor]

"please PI the tank instead of me"
what but he's a tank?
"yeah and you're not being useful, what's your point"

[solid mica]

Fr fr tho do we play necro or venth on lords? Gonna be at it soon

[balmy condor]

necro

[oak sky]

necro

[solid mica]

Ty sire

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

Kyrian

[oak sky]

[limber lion]

I dare you

[solid mica]

What if I do

[oak sky]

ill do it for you

[balmy condor]

I'll stream it for an hour

bet

[solid mica]

Kleia slappin crit

[limber lion]

[oak sky]

i could gaslight my guild into thinking its good

[bleak sky]

inting the raid
farming stream content

You're one gkick away from becoming gromnak

[solid mica]

Just put up a quick pin on it being bis for lords that I can show my lead and I'll play it

[oak sky]

[balmy condor]

okay but when are you gonna gaslight yourself into a better guild

[solid mica]

And I'll screenshot

[oak sky]

im washed i cant

[zinc frost]

Hey, I feel like we could play kyrian in keys, we would be able to hit all of the charged CP in aoe with our 1cp FOK

[balmy condor]

you're washed? yeah I bet you are, you're clean as fuck, I bet you washed yourself so hard you're shining bro, star in the night sky type shit. Absolutely RADIANT my guy, you the fucking goat

[solid mica]

It's pretty easy to hit them all as sin, no fkkn tech or broadside jerkin u round

[limber lion]

Seal fate.

[balmy condor]

https://tenor.com/view/arataka-reigen-mob-psycho100-banishing-salt-punch-anime-gif-13748674

[solid mica]

Felt a lot more consistent when I tried it

That ur cp constantly switch .03 sec before u finish

[limber lion]

Bis anime

[balmy condor]

me when I hit a 4 cp mut and finish and then another 4cp mut and finish and another 4cp mut and I feel like I'm actually slamming but I'm 14th on meters

I played sin on lihuvim in order to kill boss and it was so cringe cev

[oak sky]

sin feels baaad on lihuvy

[balmy condor]

I was on schematic killing duty but I couldn't do add-boss-add-boss-add-boss

so I ended up just holding everything for the schematics

and doing tank boss damage

[oak sky]

i did adds boss boss boss boss boss boss

[balmy condor]

I did adds, adds, adds, adds, boss

watch this shit your eyes will burn

[bleak sky]

Was it bdk damage or brew damage

[balmy condor]

uh huh that's my shit

[oak sky]

@balmy condor guess who did 2nd most to the adds over the fight only cding the first set

[balmy condor]

uh huh that's my shit

[faint harness]

Playing for the kill

I salute you good sir

[turbid harbor]

Oh no

[bleak sky]

@lucid birch absolute Chad menace to society multirole multispec freak show of a player

[balmy condor]

but now

schematic damage

me do my job boss

[faint harness]

Boss dead = mission accomplished

[balmy condor]

[plush isle]

Someone every Raidlead want 😉

[balmy condor]

I tried to do a vend on boss between adds

but then the flag was always off by like 5 seconds

so I was like fuck

I just gotta hold

5 vends in 9 minutes

bruh

[late birch]

Monkas

[turbid harbor]

I’d have used a different legendary

Well I wouldn’t have done what you were doing

But if I was

[late birch]

I did the same thing

[plush isle]

next time shadowdust for awesome shiv uptime

[oak sky]

i think i got 9

[balmy condor]

yeh would've played deathly unironically I think

[limber lion]

Honestly coulda played Niya with Herbs at that point

And just send Vend

[balmy condor]

this is also smart

fae fight

[plush isle]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=339344/judgment-of-the-arbiter

[oak sky]

iceblades was on that a bit ago

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

no

[plush isle]

only player in the world

[oak sky]

im not touching nf i just used my cds consistently (only on boss)

[balmy condor]

I think I'll try to fae with deathly or some shit for the add damage next week

I can't be asked playing for parses

I just want boss dead

[limber lion]

Just Dusk Fae

[balmy condor]

gonna parse schematic damage

[limber lion]

Ez

[tender garden]

Is assassin capable of doing 17-20k overall in standard 15-20 keys

[oak sky]

maybe

[limber lion]

Yes

[balmy condor]

you with with niya haste I can get vend down to like 50ish?

[oak sky]

in a 15 just play raid build and you can do like 18k

[ashen scroll]

i've done like 18k in a dos, not terrible

[oak sky]

stuff dies too fast for the actual m+ build in 15s

[plush isle]

depends on your comp

[limber lion]

Nah

But I was sending cds twice on boss before every intermission

Si yoy should be able to do one on add then one on boss

[ebon notch]

wait does niya give haste

[limber lion]

So you*

[limber lion]

Herbs does

[ebon notch]

o

[limber lion]

Dreamweaver cringe

[balmy condor]

I was trying to do one on add one on boss but then shit wasn't up for the schematics

[ebon notch]

dreamweaver kinda busted with that seed shit

on god god

[oak sky]

i hate pod i hate pod i hate pod

[limber lion]

Yeh bit that should be fine as Fae because you're not holding for Flag

Abd just send on cd

[balmy condor]

yeah makes sense

[plush isle]

now this is pod racing

[limber lion]

Might as well send it

Give it a shot

Might be fun

You can hold Sepsis for every adds for giga burst

[balmy condor]

yeah I'll try it

[limber lion]

Niya is so good, too bad venthyr is still op

No movement restrictions

No tea

No random timers

Just consistent deeps

Procing Herbs with Soothing Darkness

Without even playing it

[ebon notch]

big slamming damage

[limber lion]

[ebon notch]

why do you know the name of everything cev

[limber lion]

I'm a nerd

And have played this shit for years

[ebon notch]

i swear i know how all this shit works but i have to look up what its called

makes me feel dumb as fuck

[oak sky]

i know the name of vendetta and most of our passives

[ebon notch]

"oh yeah you gotta do the thing with the thing"

[limber lion]

Also gotta know the names of stuff for simmerinos

[ebon notch]

and im right

but nobody takes me seriously

cause i said "thing with the thing"

[limber lion]

I know jackshit about Kyrian though

Because it's always been terrible

[plush isle]

you have to change with the with "thing thing"

[oak sky]

hammer of genesis

thats all i got

[limber lion]

Combat Meditation

Bron

[ebon notch]

"thingy" for the extra technical shit

[ebon notch]

phial

[zinc frost]

Owls bring phial, phial good.

[oak sky]

auto phial

[ebon notch]

@limber lion you closer to streaming?

i need to dump my twitch prime

[plush isle]

Would be awesome if that owl could place a vial in my vault

[limber lion]

I aint affiliate

So no primerinos or subberinos

[ebon notch]

give it like 2 weeks

and youll have it

[limber lion]

Pog

[ebon notch]

so yes?

[uneven hamlet]

should I go marileth on lords? for the add that spawns or heimir is better even with the add spawn

[balmy condor]

I doubt you'd notice a difference between the two

[uneven hamlet]

[solid mica]

[fair vector]

If I make a tier slot with sand relics, what is used to upgrade ilvl?

[hollow river]

don't think you can

needs to be m+ or pvp item to be upgraded i think

[fair vector]

Ohh ok. So I guess just a last ditch to finish set?

[hollow river]

i suppose

i'd just grind dungeons until you get the proper slot piece

tbh

[fair vector]

Seems like the fastest way. New char and unlucky so far.

[brazen zodiac]

yeah it is lol

[glass tulip]

@brazen zodiac

[ebon notch]

[echo geyser]

[solid mica]

On a fight like anduin, full st of sin would probably be more than sub "funnel" on a monstrous soul yea?

[hollow river]

why the quotation marks

[glass tulip]

what do mean by "quotations" of course a "sub" rogue cares about funnel and sin's "damage"

[hollow river]

[zinc frost]

Go either sub or sin on anduin > scroll down the meters to find your name with the tanks > cry > repeat during farm

[lunar otter]

I wonder what 10.0 has in store for the ass boisss

[ebon notch]

Ram I'm gonna have such good food pics for you next week

[ebon notch]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BYxbn2qWLmHwvXRG#fight=32&type=damage-done

Can use my logs as a reference if you want

[echo geyser]

[ebon notch]

Gonna set up the hotplate in the back yard and make some good shit

[echo geyser]

[lucid birch]

ty king i missed this but appreciate it

[solid mica]

Cause from the perception of having a class spec identity subs "funnel" is quite dogshit in regard comparatively to say, destro aoe

But idk how that stacks up on like anduin compared to just slamming vendettas

[hollow river]

It’s still just funnel

[gusty mirage]

ngl after playing both

[hollow river]

It might be worse than destros atm but it’s still the same as always

[gusty mirage]

I think assassination is slightly better for andy

[hollow river]

No need for the “”

[solid mica]

My point was that if subs spec identity is funnel its not good enough at it respectively

Which is just how it's largely perceived by the community

Still does it

[gusty mirage]

sub's funnel is ass

like outside of flag

it's very meh

[solid mica]

Yeah I wouldn't mind funneling if it actually blasted

The mob

[echo geyser]

buff sub funnel

bring shuriken combo back (but weaker)

[gusty mirage]

no bring back shuriken combo full strength

and stop designing boss fights like shit

[echo geyser]

[gusty mirage]

and killing one of the most fun niches in the history of wow in the process

[solid mica]

I know we don't spam CT but does axe change that in massive aoe pulls at all?

[empty hinge]

Maybe it’s back for 10.0 and they make finality a talent or give it baseline

[solid mica]

Just need to make consecutive finishers on a target buff dmg by a % stacking with a cap that has a refresh rate to maintain

[gusty mirage]

I don't trust blizzard to balance shit

they completely gutted arms 4pc, but kept destro's

[solid mica]

Time to play Deathly all specs

[glass tulip]

what about Sub Rogue Funnel ™️

[zinc frost]

100 percent

[vestal wren]

they are only good because of pi

[gusty mirage]

its true

[vestal wren]

but i am with you

bring back more unique damage profiles

[gusty mirage]

them removing shuriken combo was an abomination

and I'll never forgive them for it

[vestal wren]

bring shuriken combo back, shift more damage in short dances that have a lower frequency/uptime

[gusty mirage]

they seem to like the funnel idea for sub, well they know what to do

CMON BLIZZ

DO IT

[vestal wren]

sustained damage profiles on 3 specs of a class just feel boring

[gusty mirage]

think of how sick sub would be on andy

if they still had that

[vestal wren]

reality is, even in m+

[gusty mirage]

like actual, meaningful, funnel

[vestal wren]

the funnel is not good

[gusty mirage]

not "I'm ethical " while doing 7k less dps than the warlock

lmao

[vestal wren]

the problem with subs funnel is it is a sustained damage profile

so anyone with a somewhat decent cd can also use it on a add

and funnel suddenly does not matter

at least if funnel is used to kill one mob faster

ofc, if the mob survives long enough it might change

[balmy condor]

It would be nice if any of the 3 specs could have burst of any kind

It’s super weird playing a pure dps class with 3 dps specs

And none of them have any burst

The only reason rogue specs have had burst has been through borrowed power

Kind of an awkward way to solve that issue

[vestal wren]

I am not even sure that is the issue

[balmy condor]

I think it’s definitely an issue

[vestal wren]

it feels more like borrowed power systems are just higher in impact

e.g. vendetta used to be one of the best damage cooldowns

[balmy condor]

It’s probably not the root, the root is just poorly designed class cooldowns

[vestal wren]

now its not that strong anymore and easily beaten by ofter classes

[balmy condor]

Shadow blades is designed terribly for a 3 min cd

[subtle tundra]

Give me toxic blade back 😭

[vestal wren]

subtlety needs a signature ability back, something like dfa with similar synergy

kingsbane was quite nice tbh

[balmy condor]

You have shiv

It’s the same button

[subtle tundra]

Let utility be utility mongrel

[balmy condor]

Sure

But shiv is the legit toxic blade but stronger

[subtle tundra]

But let me soothe

Like other 2 specs without worrying

Assa is the medically assisted spec of rogue

[vestal wren]

i don't think that shiv is even a strong sooth

well, our hope is 10.0

but spec design in bfa/sl rly did move towards sustained damage profiles on all 3 specs

what makes none of them feel unique anymore

[subtle tundra]

Isn't it the only soothe that soothes all rages

[balmy condor]

for literally anything new in talent trees and not just dumb fucking talents with already have

[subtle tundra]

Hunter is 1 rage

If a mob has enrage mechanic and affix enrage, shiv dispels both

Hunter only 1

Idk about druid

[balmy condor]

If I open my dragonflight beta and look at my Assassination talents

And I see master poisoner being a useless sack of shit

[subtle tundra]

Give me 60% ma talent so cringe ass 2 cp mutilated don't fuck my day

[balmy condor]

Then I will riot

[subtle tundra]

Wtf do I even do when 2nd mut gives me 2 cp in opener

[balmy condor]

60?

You mean 100

[vestal wren]

50% ma def. is a weird decision

but then you also know that subtlety still has subterfuge

or gloomblade

[balmy condor]

There’s so many talents that don’t make sense

Venom rush? Hidden blades?

[vestal wren]

Venom rush could have been decent

if it was buffed by a bit more

[balmy condor]

I mean it’s just an energy increase right? That’s what alacrity does but better

[empty hinge]

Venom rush was somewhat decent in uldir iirc :sad:

[subtle tundra]

Wasn't it a different talent

[balmy condor]

It was a different talent in legion

Venom rush buffed venomous wounds in legion

[vestal wren]

it just was never buffed to the point it could compete

so its just a dead talent

but def. not an super exciting talent

[balmy condor]

Nightstalker also doesn’t make much sense

[vestal wren]

the problem with NS is still the same

it competes with subterfuge, and subterfuge offers stronger benefits

but this is one of the problems i think with talents

[thin trout]

We killed halondrus last week and are going to progress on anduin soon, how are assassins doing on the fight? is the vendetta burst good for the intermission damage? As in, assassin vs subtlety - not enough parses for assassins to make naything out of it

[vestal wren]

if you have multiple talents doing very similar things, you end up with a binary choice

any of the rogue specs is bad on anduin

[thin trout]

woot, time to sit 😄

[vestal wren]

the reason the amount of parses is so low is that most guilds just straight out bench their rougues

[thin trout]

what's the reason tho that we suck?

[vestal wren]

we just can't utialize the vulnerability window as well as many oters

in part due to what we just discussed, neither of the rogue specs provides a high amount of burst damage

[drifting cosmos]

Really? Doesn't sub funnel dmg to boss?

[subtle tundra]

Yes, but...not

[vestal wren]

it does

but funnel is a over time effect

[thin trout]

guerss u just want 5 warlocks or osmething

[vestal wren]

the vulnerability window is not for sustained funnel, but for burst

[subtle tundra]

Sub funnel seems strong over a 5 minute sim, in a 1 minute sim it's underwhelming

Cause no burst

[jade abyss]

Give kingsbane back and maybe its only me but it feels bad to waste your dmg cooldown for dispell enraged mobs as sin rogue

[vestal wren]

it does, but you don't rly do that in raids

[jade abyss]

Yeah in raids thats correct

[drifting cosmos]

So what's good melee spec in that fight?

[tired falcon]

Have 50 survival hunters?

[drifting cosmos]

In keys you just get a hunter or druid to dispell lol

[tired falcon]

I’d imagine frost dk pretty good

Since iirc they get close to one min breath

[vestal wren]

best is possible to just have wls

wl is atm tuned to a point you can replace almost any dps with it and it would be good

[drifting cosmos]

Tuning is like a joke atm

[tired falcon]

[vestal wren]

it rly depends on what you compare it to

[tired falcon]

Just have 13 warlocks playing implosive potential.

[vestal wren]

people i spoke to did point out that tuning improved from bfa to sl

[tired falcon]

13 tyrants mega blast boss

[drifting cosmos]

Just 9.2 really, before I think it's ok so far SL

[bleak sky]

You don't have a soothe anymore

Saving shiv to soothe is actively trolling

[vestal wren]

CN was a disaster too

neither of the rogue specs was tuned good

only assassination got buffed, and it got to the point it was decent/good

(to be fair assassination was rly bad before that)

[limber lion]

Sub was super op in pre-patch

[tired falcon]

Wasn’t outlaw okay? Don’t rmbr too much

[limber lion]

but they fixed the bugs and nerfed it and it was ripperino

[vestal wren]

it still carried over

just showed how changes are usually only adopted slowly by players

[drifting cosmos]

😃 start of the patch always are messy

[limber lion]

Old Akaari

[drifting cosmos]

Most ppl don't know what's what at that time cause all the changes between expansions

[vestal wren]

The problem is, people did not look up current information

they did see content creators praising subtlety on youtube and even people in the higher guilds did play it

when even in simulations rogue was rather meh

rogue was good in sanctum because of sylvanas dagger and frost shards

[jade abyss]

At the start from the expansion keep snd up without refresh from envenom 😫

[vestal wren]

tbh i think the energy regeneration from snd made sense

but i am not sad that they took the approach to make snd casting irrelevant for the spec

i still thing that snd is quite weak in terms of integration in the spec

[drifting cosmos]

😃 I hope it become totally passive, comes with finishers etc

[vestal wren]

what i mean with that is that snd does not do a lot, having or not having it is

[drifting cosmos]

Exactly, doesn't feel rewarding to press it

[vestal wren]

for sub/outlaw it does somewhat integrate in the spec

[jade abyss]

I was living good without it in legion and bfa

[vestal wren]

rewarding to press is such a weird term

[drifting cosmos]

Thus should be more powerful or just be passive

[hollow escarp]

isn't that same for rupture though? it's a maintenance button we press that makes us do more damage in the end

[vestal wren]

because people always come to subtlety and complain how bad pressing snd feels

[hollow escarp]

they should pick a better keybind

[vestal wren]

when in reality slice and dice for subtlety does a lot more than rupture

[drifting cosmos]

Except rupture stacks and regen is a lot more

[hollow escarp]

ofc

[vestal wren]

but nobody complains about rupture

only about snd

for sin, rupture does more ofc

[balmy condor]

That’s because we all took rupture off our bars in 9.0 remember

[drifting cosmos]

Yea sub rupture is weird too

[bleak sky]

What

[vestal wren]

[bleak sky]

Cursed if true

[hollow escarp]

you were not around?

[jade abyss]

Maybe its bcs you see it do something on the screen (dmg numbers) instead from snd

[balmy condor]

Jpc originally said rupture sucks don’t ever rupture

[hollow escarp]

[bleak sky]

Rogue after 9.0.5 thankfully

[balmy condor]

That’s how the whole beef started

[vestal wren]

its a joke because one popular content creator stated that you don't press rupture (what was ofc nonesense)

[bleak sky]

Oh makes sense

[limber lion]

Newbies learning about rogue drama

[bleak sky]

I thought the jpc drama started somewhere else

[hollow escarp]

:deathly:

that's way after

[balmy condor]

He also said sub needed 40% crit to be viable over outlaw back then but oddly that wasn’t a big thing even though I think that shit was arguably even fucking stupider

[vestal wren]

tbh we always had some hot takes

[balmy condor]

Getting to 40% crit in 9.0 was crazy hard

[vestal wren]

and thats fine, in the end we are here to discuss things. And it is usually fairly simple to prove something wrong/right

[hollow escarp]

crit soft cap 1055

bro, that thing yesterday made me laugh

after Cev explained a guy that stats don't matter

he drops "soft cap at 1055, rigth?"

[vestal wren]

was he talking about stat dr?

[drifting cosmos]

Lol...that's very specific

[vestal wren]

maybe

[limber lion]

he also dm'd me after because I said I would seppuku and didn't answer his question

[craggy oak]

What is the difference on sub between 100% rupture uptime and 0%

[hollow escarp]

didn't specify dr

[drifting cosmos]

What % even is that

[limber lion]

[hollow escarp]

like 40%

I have almost 1100 crit and it's like 40

[balmy condor]

Like 4%

[vestal wren]

would be my guess, that he just tries to number something around the stat dr mark

[jade abyss]

In the german forum there was a guy that was saying all the time with 40% crit you does 50% more dmg, jesus that discussion with ausgelebt was hilarious xD

[bleak sky]

Poor ausgelebt

[balmy condor]

Fun fact about ausgelebt, he’s the only semi-regular person in this discord I have blocked

I see the 1 blocked message thing in wow general sometimes

[vestal wren]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7piynETCnrZ7C1dSuAqGdt

[balmy condor]

Wait

That’s lower than I remember

[oak sky]

[vestal wren]

deeper dagger got higher in rank ^^

[balmy condor]

Yeah and not venth I guess

[hollow escarp]

so that's still better than playing outlaw, why even press rupture then?

[vestal wren]

i mean season 4 will give 2 more dd ranks i assume

[drifting cosmos]

Press for fun

[vestal wren]

so rupture will become even worse

[craggy oak]

Tyty for the sim

[vestal wren]

rupture is already at the point you only use it on 1-3 targets

[hollow escarp]

2 x edge of night in s4 though

[vestal wren]

ye

18% dps gain from 2x 311 eon

[hollow escarp]

curious about assa

[vestal wren]

its not that high for assa

285 was ~2%

[drifting cosmos]

That's wild

[hollow escarp]

I suppose we will also use them considering we had 2 in SoD

[vestal wren]

but giveme a sec

[hollow escarp]

but it was also the only 259 dagger

[bleak sky]

Casual 18% yep

[craggy oak]

When i go sub in keys, i do refuse to press rup in opener.

[rigid vessel]

Sub will be insane ❤️

[limber lion]

nerf sub

[drifting cosmos]

like another tier set

[rigid vessel]

Maybe they will to balance EoN xD

[hollow escarp]

EoN is fine

[vestal wren]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9TR5yn9rXg1uFFT8pnDgS5

[hollow escarp]

makes sense it's better for sub since sylvanas was a backstabber

[vestal wren]

it is still quite a damage gain overall

[balmy condor]

Sorry it Just scales better cev

[hollow escarp]

I was curious in comparison to other daggers with same ilvl

[vestal wren]

the secret EON scaling tech

[balmy condor]

Deeper daggers to the moon

[limber lion]

[vestal wren]

moment

[hollow escarp]

wait for blizzard to add season 5 so assa can scale even better

[balmy condor]

Whitelists are for LOSERS

We buff EVERYTHING

[vestal wren]

season 4 def. will run into some stat dr shananigans

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eqqWny8espNdByQZ45wuHS

[bleak sky]

Yeah I'll get 40% vers

[hollow escarp]

nice

[bleak sky]

See ya suckers

[hollow escarp]

eon all the way

[vestal wren]

expected

the reason we atm drop eon is item level

[ashen scroll]

Do you have that for sub?

Didn't scroll up mb

[hollow escarp]

that's also for assa, I just noticed

[subtle tundra]

surely blizz will realise how much of a problem the dagger will be for balancing

[bleak sky]

Yeah they will nerf rogues

[bleak sky]

And buff destro again just in case

[ashen scroll]

We will still be third dps in m+ its okay

[vestal wren]

to be fair, the season 4 post did mention balancing

[bleak sky]

Yeah balancing

Buffing warlock, nerfing rogue, deleting blood dk

[subtle tundra]

surely fury warriors wearing jaythis + jailer weapon both max level will be interesting

[vestal wren]

i expected season 4 to be wild west of balancing

[hollow escarp]

• OWS

[subtle tundra]

fuck

[bleak sky]

• 311 opc

[empty hinge]

Idm numbers be a little bit outta control for 1 patch

[hollow escarp]

better level up Zugjack

[bleak sky]

Or 303 whatever it is

Me, a double veinripper enjoyer

[vestal wren]

in the end the lengh of season 4 matters

[subtle tundra]

double veinripper when eon exists

[hybrid vale]

Off topic to this but when you guys finish m jailer does your guild go into hibernate/ farm status or do they go for fastest kill times etc

[vestal wren]

if its rather short, you don't rly get to go to the highest gear levels

[limber lion]

some chill clears for a few weeks before starting speed kills :)

[hybrid vale]

Oh

[subtle tundra]

idm an unbalanced season when its just for fun as long as i can easily reroll

[hybrid vale]

But most eventually transition to competitive speed

[bleak sky]

Playing rogue OMEGALULKEKW

[vestal wren]

true

[hybrid vale]

?

[limber lion]

Yeah, that's our guilds thing

[vestal wren]

eon does make a strong case for rogue tho

[subtle tundra]

most just try to clear every week as fast as possible

[bleak sky]

Most? No

[subtle tundra]

not speed kills

[limber lion]

Most guilds don't bother with speed kills and just do normal farm

[bleak sky]

If you happen to kill it fast good

[subtle tundra]

they just want to get in, get the loot and get out

[bleak sky]

But you gotta degen a little to actually speed kill stuff

[limber lion]

Not making any particular strats around killing bosses fast

[hybrid vale]

Ah ok, cause I see some healers with dps leggos for the fastest kill times looks interesting

[limber lion]

Just consistently want to kill bosses every week without wipes

[subtle tundra]

speed killing takes a lot of raid time

[bleak sky]

That's just farm though

You don't need the healing

[hollow river]

That sounds really bad

[bleak sky]

See mistweavers/paladins/disc running dps shards last tier to blast the raid

[subtle tundra]

worse than shadow dances being irrelevant?

like now

[hollow river]

Yes

[limber lion]

wanting sub to be a burst class?

oh no

[subtle tundra]

yea, chief, gonna disagree with that

[hollow river]

Imagine backstabbing 3/4 of the time

🤮🤮🤮🤮

[hybrid vale]

Or worse, gloom blading

[hollow river]

Idk I’m all for more burst but would rather it not be more boring

[hybrid vale]

Somebody needs to make a lil kappa face in the icon

I feel like it would be fun

[vestal wren]

what exactly sounds bad

i don't mind having downtime between dances, it makes them feel more impactful

i can't rly relate to people who want 100% dance uptime

[hollow dirge]

Agreed, but if dance was as impactful as it was in mop/wod.
Right now, with dance not being super bursty and find weakness being a joke instead of actual spec mechanic, people tend to want higher uptime.

[vestal wren]

but that is exactly the consequence

dance needs to be a joke

and fw

if we want 100% uptime

[zinc frost]

Kyrian sub feels like you feel like your just maintaining a buff imo instead of feeling like a decent burst window

[vestal wren]

people want dance 100% uptime and it to be impactful like a 3 minute cooldown

this is the underlying issue

[hollow dirge]

Back then, if you played sub in wod for example, playing around find weakness , and properly planned dances, it was super fun , and rewarding, you’d spike up super high if played well

[vestal wren]

i only played hfc

and hfc sub was mostly good because of borrowed power systems

[timid cloud]

Kinda like right now.

[hollow dirge]

I wish they went in direction you’re speaking about right now, as that was my favourite spec in the game by a large margin

[vestal wren]

sub without and with tier is barely different right now

[timid cloud]

I meant conduits mainly.

[vestal wren]

and that is the most recent borrowed power system

[timid cloud]

Tier is casino bonus roll.

[vestal wren]

conduits don't rly do anything rotational

PV does to a degree

[timid cloud]

I’m horrible at math & even I know that without DD working the way it does for Sub it would be bad, would it not?

[vestal wren]

but

deeper dagger - passively more damage
Planed execution - passively more crit
stiletto - more shadow blade casts, even tho the cooldown is mostly a cp increase but don't rly change rotational play

to answer your question

[zinc frost]

Yeah I agree nothing was really added that changed sub gameplay with the exception to PV without them yeha you’ll do less damage but you’ll be playing the same way

[vestal wren]

and i iterate to be sure i got your thought correct

if you nerf the strongest conduit of subtlety, would subtlety be worse?

yes absolutely

[timid cloud]

But I mean that’s what’s propping them up, is it not?

[limber lion]

No lol

[timid cloud]

If DD didn’t have the interactions it does, it absolutely sounds like it should.

[limber lion]

A max level DD is less than 4% damage

it's nothing

It's not what enables the spec

[timid cloud]

[limber lion]

compared to this

18% conduit

vs this SUPER OP DEEPER DAGGERS INTERACTION

[timid cloud]

Yeah, now that’s a bit much.

[limber lion]

which is 4% on its own

[timid cloud]

Just doesn’t seem right that it should only do 4%

But I guess it is what it is.

[vestal wren]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eeqbMe24PtFCcZgidCtH3e

deeper dagger has a high impact ofc

but it is not as dramatic

cto for outlaw is way higher in impact

[timid cloud]

Alright, then what’s the biggest chunk of Subs damage that’s keeping it relevant?

Just for curiosities sake.

[limber lion]

Many things, including tier set and EoN

Not exactly a crazy op spec, it's pretty mid

Has its uses, just like Assa

But wouldn't necessarily call either a top tier spec

"relevant" like you said is a good way to describe em

[timid cloud]

Yeah, that’s true, there are legit just better melee specs.

We do the same thing, just different flavors & Sub is just better at AOE because it’s easier & numerically better because of that, right?

[limber lion]

We don't really do the same thing

[timid cloud]

Maybe I’m looking at it shortsightedly then.

[vestal wren]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/58dd1aLtktKhs8TYfskqcK

[timid cloud]

Because I just think single target bots when we’re at our peak.

[vestal wren]

the problem with conduits is, that they are a build up system

that we carry over the entire xpac

the impact of them is usually fairly low, dd gets a bit more value from sylvanas and the higher amount of finishers

[zinc frost]

Hopefully 10.0 has some juicy not disappointing rogue goodies

[timid cloud]

One can only hope & cope…

[vestal wren]

10.0 sounds like they can do bigger changes

[hollow river]

I don’t mind it being less impactful I simply enjoy the pacing of it

[vestal wren]

e.g. blizz can get rid of the "can do everything" classes/specs and forces them to make decisions

[hollow river]

Almost like listening to a metronome as you play it

[vestal wren]

idk, i feel like assassination is the planed spec

[hollow river]

I do wish Blades was more impactful

[vestal wren]

sub feels very spammy

[hollow river]

I like spammy, just not outlaws chaos

[timid cloud]

It’s the same spec. Just faster.

[hollow river]

[timid cloud]

Didn’t we have this argument like 4 months ago? I could’ve sworn….

[vestal wren]

possible

[timid cloud]

[vestal wren]

i think all 3 specs are very similar atm

[hollow river]

Nah idk

[timid cloud]

I kinda didn’t miss this playstyle of sin.

[hollow river]

I think sub and sin are very planning oriented

[timid cloud]

But it’s okay when you get used it it again.

[hollow river]

Outlaw is just smash smash

[zinc frost]

Outlaw looks fun, my boomer wrists say no

[vestal wren]

outlaw seems fine

just needs some tuning

[timid cloud]

Wdym they got 4%

[subtle tundra]

aura buff assa

ty

[vestal wren]

i think the tier set and double legendary did bring some fresh air to sin

[timid cloud]

[subtle tundra]

dont care about anyone's opinion

[timid cloud]

Chad Varas take.

He just wants to play Sin in every key without getting flamed.

[vestal wren]

idk if he wants to play sin in keys

[subtle tundra]

i love my sin keys

[vestal wren]

ah nice

[subtle tundra]

i hate that i dont have on demand stuns

[hollow river]

All 1 of them

[subtle tundra]

like sub

[timid cloud]

True.

No control, all pump.

[subtle tundra]

i might play assa in mists and just call for help on stalkers

ez

[timid cloud]

Just blind 4head

Evasion the bucking

Tanks job to cc that one. L

[zinc frost]

Vanish cheap shot then cry

[subtle tundra]

evasion is reserved for shades

[timid cloud]

Oh true.

Wdym

Just kite them for FOK CP & pad

[subtle tundra]

actually vanish cheapshot aint bad

[timid cloud]

[subtle tundra]

you only lose 1 gar

just kinda 2 min cd

blind 2 min cd

[bleak sky]

just get uhr

[zinc frost]

Yeah love having 2 min stops

[timid cloud]

I remember Whispyr a few weeks ago was like…”if you gotta vanish cs cs cs as a first pull then you got bigger problems to deal with.”

[subtle tundra]

buddy..... at the start of the season

in streets

[timid cloud]

Okay true.

[subtle tundra]

i was doing cheapshot cheapshot cheapshot

instead of calling for cap totem

[timid cloud]

Wiseguys FUCK

Those are some sex-havers.

[late birch]

Theres probably no way to get a private log reviewed right?

[bleak sky]

upload it as unlisted

[late birch]

to discord or to WCL? because i wasnt the one who uploaded it. Was guild

WCL down atm i think though

[hollow escarp]

you have to manually upload it

also if your guild has stealth mode enabled, you can also upload it as public because it won't matter for rankings anyway

[rotund oak]

[strange python]

anyone know what the duskwalker ring is called

[zinc frost]

Shadowghast ring

[strange python]

is that what i have to use for the sim

ok

[limber lion]

Just use Top Gear

you can sim all legos there

[strange python]

im simming under kind of weird circumstances that i wouldnt even be able to begin explaining coherently

[bleak sky]

Ok have a nice day

[gusty mirage]

[slate silo]

New to sin, is snapshotting only a thing for vendetta because of 4p or can u snapshot during euphoria aswell?

[limber lion]

Only during Vendetta yes

[drifting cloud]

doesnt every haste buff snapshot? its just not worth playing around euphoria at all

[limber lion]

Well, the wording is a bit off there

haste buffs do not snapshot

Vendetta snapshots haste

but yes, it does not matter what kind of haste we're talking about

haste is haste