the sin 2p was initially at a very high value dapspman
#assassination
vestal wren
signal pier
They give developer note for everything except for stupid dumb buffs
muted ridge
is the 30% buff noticable or not much?
pure bridge
At this rate, maybe they'll bring back echoing blades.
vestal wren
is the 30% buff noticable or not much?
not much
ebon notch
the sin 2p was initially at a very high value dapspman
ye ik but do you have a sim for the 2+4pc pre nerf
vestal wren
i mean
looking at a tier set value of near 30% atm
you can image that it was even more absurd
oak sky
@slow marsh its real bro
tidal gorge
Obviously hidden blades will be the new meta spec. 
subtle tundra
looking at a tier set value of near 30% atm
wouldnt be as good as sub in m+ anyways
violet hemlock
Obviously hidden blades will be the new meta spec. <:fok:395659707311980544>
😄
only need like what them to do the same buff 5 more times
vestal wren
signal pier
Yes it is
glass dust
Hey guys just caught my last 4rth part ! 🙂
Time to switch NF or it's an old call ? I'v seen so many rouge sticking to venthyr on warcraftlogs
signal pier
Shows how clueless they can be
vestal wren
wouldnt be as good as sub in m+ anyways
it wuld be even more overpowered than it is right now
just on pure st
violet hemlock
Hey guys just caught my last 4rth part ! 🙂
Time to switch NF or it's an old cal...
nf is fine venth is technically best if u do some wack shit
strange python
Hey guys just caught my last 4rth part ! 🙂
Time to switch NF or it's an old cal...
time to forget you were ever excited about 4 piece xd
carmine dawn
hidden blades BIS
vestal wren
time to go venthyr?
crystal raft
why are they so averse to just giving us CT baseline. or even just any aoe at all
glass dust
time to forget you were ever excited about 4 piece xd
Synergy with sepsis looked dope
signal pier
why are they so averse to just giving us CT baseline. or even just any aoe at al...
They dont even know assa is a spec
limber lion
why are they so averse to just giving us CT baseline. or even just any aoe at al...
Not quite the time for a talent/class rework yet. That happens with expansion release or prepatch.
strange python
but we are venthyr : )
glass dust
rofl
strange python
atleast what i did
glass dust
Got my akkari ready
vestal wren
so excited <@!889800962447929374>
i even left the server with my imposter account, fun that you still found it to ping
cloud reef
Do we use CT during shiv?
carmine dawn
im gonna annoy you any way possible
limber lion
Yes
carmine dawn
you know this
limber lion
@cloud reef
glass dust
We dont apply CT outside of shiv/vendetta windows right ?
limber lion
We do
cloud reef
<@393535035195654145>
okay so its changed since last tier ty
limber lion
Always keep it up.
tidal gorge
Single target CT felt so bad last week that I'm seriously considering sub again for the first time since CN 😦
limber lion
You can jist play Night Fae
cloud reef
Always keep it up.
yeah always keep it up but last tier you dont refresh during shiv right?
limber lion
And not worry about CT in ST
limber lion
yeah always keep it up but last tier you dont refresh during shiv right?
Yes but last tier is last tier
We have 2p and 4p buffing up Vend
zinc frost
Why does CT feel bad in ST for some people?
strange python
i could barely keep up with the increased vendetta speed
limber lion
Everyone wants to play an Envenom spec
strange python
plus CT plus marked for death
glass dust
It's a bit unintuitive
limber lion
The slow, DoT-based class should be a bursty Envenom-focused class
fleet whale
the whole spec is a mess imo
limber lion
Spec is fine now
fleet whale
which is why for now im just sticking with PB, i don't play at a high enough level to care about pure min maxxing
strange python
Its obviously different for everyone, I only played sin cause it was slow/ish like feral and had dots
brain small, cant keep up
fleet whale
envenom is far more iconic to assassination than CT is
strange python
if you like it, you like it though i have nothing to say to that
limber lion
Feral is definitely a lot slower than Assa
strange python
yeah feral was a bit too slow, so assa was perfect
vestal wren
Why does CT feel bad in ST for some people?
because it adds another dot to keep track of
tidal gorge
Poison bomb only sims like 100 lower than CT, so I did try that. It does feel better to me. But I would prefer they changed the 4pc mechanic to double tick instead of exsang so you wouldn't have to reapply every dot 3x during vendetta and wouldn't be so punishing if you get a bad mechanic during vendetta
limber lion
envenom is far more iconic to assassination than CT is
Envenom bad
limber lion
Poison bomb only sims like 100 lower than CT, so I did try that. It does feel be...
Not happening
Reapplying dots is literally our class fantasy
fleet whale
Idk why everyone wants assassin to just flat out turn into an unholy dk with daggers
fleet whale
sin to me was always a hybrid between dots and direct damage
tidal gorge
And they would still be with that change. I guess I don't understand where the disagreement is?
glass dust
Assa is so well designed to progress, learn the strats, handling mechanics and keeping the brain frosty
limber lion
And they would still be with that change. I guess I don't understand where the d...
Wasn't referring to you.
Just saying that the change will not happen
A bit late for that
Also it kills the entire point of the tierset
Doesn't change gameplay
Just increases bleed damage by 100%
strange python
regardless ill just play necro for fights that require cleave and just go sub on everything else lol
limber lion
Very cool
fleet whale
Like there has only been two tiers in the history of wow in which CT has been used in ST.. idk why suddenly people think it fits sin more than envenom? (for St that is)
strange python
it just makes the spec even harder to play, if you like that i suppose its fine
sorry not even harder
just harder
limber lion
Like there has only been two tiers in the history of wow in which CT has been us...
Just because something has been used more by a class doesn't mean it's the better choice
slow marsh
Why are we discussing CT when they are proposing that a ,30% buff to fok is gonna fix our spec
violet hemlock
dont know
wooden dawn
Why are we discussing CT when they are proposing that a ,30% buff to fok is gonn...
preach
slow marsh
Like obviously it doesn't matter
fleet whale
and i'm not even talking about the poison application part of envenom
since poisons are a huge part of assassin as well
wooden dawn
i wanna see 10% to all our ST too 
slow marsh
Like yes making fok do real damage was part of my big 3 of how to fix the spec but wut why only that of all things they could do
I'm confused
signal pier
Literally fixed nothing
limber lion
since poisons are a huge part of assassin as well
Except not really. It's literally just passive damage that is out of our control. Only thing that matters is whether you have poison applied or not, and that happens by swinging the monster once with anything.
fleet whale
i mean the real change we need is a talent tree overall
strange python
most classes do
glass dust
On my sim i got "only" a +10 dps gap between PB and CT https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cMR45jBZLKff6LB5peo7JE
limber lion
Envenom is literally the last ability on our priority list. It's a filler ability, not something we want to press.
Only because of CTTC it's actually a good button
signal pier
Changes assa requires are too big for minor patches and tuning, 9.4 waiting room
limber lion
Because Slice does more damage than the Envenom
fleet whale
@limber lion when did you start playing wow
limber lion
<@!165215952479322112> when did you start playing wow
Why does that matter?
violet hemlock
Changes assa requires are too big for minor patches and tuning, 9.4 waiting room
10.0 those are expansion changes not patch changes
fleet whale
idk how you can feel CT is some big part of this spec, when it's a talent not even designed for ST
limber lion
It's not
fleet whale
and is only really great because of a bunch of borrowed power systems
signal pier
10.0 those are expansion changes not patch changes
I memed, 9.4 is the april fools patch
violet hemlock
9.4... is also a real patch tho....
limber lion
Because it's literally the ladt button we press in our rotation
wooden dawn
envenom is BORING;) just adding fuel to this sorry
signal pier
9.4... is also a real patch tho....
9.3 will be last
fleet whale
9.2.5 is gonna be the last
limber lion
It's not a button you press to do megadeeps
You press it to get rid of combo points so you don't overcap energy/cp
fleet whale
yeah, it's low on the priority list now because of tuning and borrowed power propping other things up
limber lion
Just like Dispatch
fleet whale
but imo, it should not be that way
limber lion
yeah, it's low on the priority list now because of tuning and borrowed power pro...
That's not true either
It's been the last ability on our prio list since forever
tidal gorge
Just because something is last on the priority list doesn't make it boring or bad, it just means it's last on the priority list. If it wasn't envenom it would be something else. Would you then say whatever that something else is is bad instead?
violet hemlock
but imo, it should not be that way
that doesnt make sense envenom will always be lowest prio spender... and makes sense since everything else is maintenance
wooden dawn
limber lion
Just because something is last on the priority list doesn't make it boring or ba...
No, you always have to have an ability to get rid of Power/CP/Energy. That's true for every single spec in the game.
But that's all it is
A filler ability that you press when you can't press anything else
And that's how it has been
For years.
It's not this great magical button that does omegadeeps
It's not exactly DfA
oak sky
the best thing you can say about a filler is it delivers on theme pretty much
limber lion
Yes
proper tapir
@limber lion, may I ask your thoughts on the FoK buff?
limber lion
<@165215952479322112>, may I ask your thoughts on the FoK buff?
Nothing major, doesn't change our spot in the food pyramid.
They just have limited options for buffing aoe without buffing st even further
drowsy parcel
proper tapir
Nothing major, doesn't change our spot in the food pyramid.
Thanks, I appreciate the insight.
teal kettle
make shrouded suffocation baseline
limber lion
make shrouded suffocation baseline
So pretty much buff Subterfuge by 500% and slap 2 extra cp to stealth garrotes
Sounds good
ebon notch
balanced
granite widget
i sim higher st with bomb but most top logs on skolex are CT
and the pin says CT
do i still take CT?
limber lion
lol.
pale dagger
1 CP subterfuge garrote feels so awkward
limber lion
Man's living 2 years in the past
granite widget
with 4p they sim about equal
limber lion
Link
slow wadi
for me difference is closer 150dps
granite widget
a lot easier to play
i think ill still play sub on skolex but I wanted the option
sinful island
how valuable is PI for venth now?
normal mist
30% increased dmg on FoK, is it... significant?
slow marsh
what's 30% increase of 0
normal mist
a big ol' zero
slow marsh
there you go
normal mist
SPITING FACTS
slow marsh
I'm still like confused about it
limber lion
how valuable is PI for venth now?
Same as before
Around 600dps
Depending on profile could get up to 800+
But still more than twice worse than on say a Demo
oak sky
I'm still like confused about it
i mean it makes sense from their pov, find a way to buff sin aoe without making them an outlier in st
slow marsh
Yes because we definitely use fok for damage in aoe right. it could've easily been a 50-60% buff and still not enough
oak sky
never mind that its 0, in their view its the only viable option
buffing ct then nerfing other parts of our kit is too difficult
or something like that
slow marsh
THe issue isn't fok damage, it's the spec design itself. Which like I get that you can't just rework a spec in a hotfix (which is kind of a lie I mean you CAN you just choose not to) but still
slow marsh
ye it would require someone to play the spec at any kind of capable level
normal mist
What trinkets should we aim to farm for m+ and raid (trinkets dropped from M+). Besides phial ofc
oak sky
i dont even think it should be expected of them to rework a spec in a hotfix
thats not even one of those bare minimum things
slow marsh
I would be inclined to agree if their "balance" patches actually contained any substance
oak sky
i wouldnt expect reworks from any dev in a hotfix
slow marsh
Hotfixes are the only way they tune outside of every 6-8 months so
oak sky
a full patch i would say you can expect it for something with clear issues, but even then i think its completely fair to do it in an expansion
slow marsh
na that's the issue
oak sky
weekly patches are where I would expect balancing from them, and thats the big issue
that they just dont do that
slow marsh
That's what I mean, they just suck at pacing
if they had better pacing more people would play the game
they're way too slow and it shows time and time again
oak sky
yeah they clearly don't update enough really but I don't think its fair to expect anything unrealistic from them
realistic things we should expect and should receive
but anything extreme in a hotfix isnt really needed even
slow marsh
Well yeah the issue is that who gets to decide what's realistic and not
obtuse robin
if they cycled patches like bdo does this game would be amazing
slow marsh
Like it seems like it's just 2 people covering all 32 specs
In that case sure it's not realistic
but like wtf how much money do you make off this game and you have 2 balance devs?
excuse me
slow marsh
The reason it's not realistic is because they have a history of it not being realistic for them, doesn't mean that it should be accepted or not
but idk i'm just ranting at this point i guess. those patch notes triggered me a bit
oak sky
i mean i genuinely think expecting a rework in a hotfix is stupid
obtuse robin
ice your a drama queen but ur our drama queen
fleet anchor
30% increased dmg on FoK, is it... significant?
But yeah, as people have said: not only is it an insignificant amount of damage overall, it also isn't enough of a change to change a target threshold, nor does it address the major issue with FoK (poor CP generation) so yeah
obtuse robin
im jk
slow marsh
Like coming off of outlaw's blade flurry slap in the face, to now this slap in the face is just triggering
fleet anchor
It's actually not even worth the time of them to make this hotfix
Literally nobody would even notice
If they didn't say something
oak sky
Like coming off of outlaw's blade flurry slap in the face, to now this slap in t...
lol who cares about outlaw zoomer spec lol i would never play it lol
slow marsh
well yeah i get that but it's the point of it
like look between the lines
they are just doing things to do them and have negative reasoning or logic behind it
oak sky
my whole point is outlaw gets overlooked by everyone because of the stigma
including blizzard
we have evidence of this
gray fjord
oak sky
like i dont play outlaw because i have no reason to
that doesnt mean everyone should constantly meme about outlaw which grows the community of outlaw haters and internalizes the feeling
kindred rapids
They could buff ct without nerfing anything else, it's not like sin is particularly strong
slow marsh
They could do a lot of things. They just don't care enough to do them
kindred rapids
I don't think sin is bad but a few percent increase in our st wouldn't make us broken
obtuse robin
they to busy preparing for their 10.0 reveal 100%
slow marsh
I don't think sin is bad but a few percent increase in our st wouldn't make us b...
sub says hi
kindred rapids
Sorry meant wouldn't
slow marsh
enh says hi
kindred rapids
Auto complete ftw
gray fjord
Doesn't enhance do more ST than all 3 specs even without tier?
slow marsh
lol
gray fjord
oak sky
pretty much any buff to us would put us in an outlier position
slow marsh
I'd just have rather them not include any kind of outlaw or sin changes at all in these last couple notes. I think it would've looked better on them
kindred rapids
That's my point lol, just straight up buff ct. Buff pb too, pb already sucks regardless
normal mist
Regarding m+ trinkets to farm (besides the Legion one that isnt available rn), any suggetions besides phial? 😄
slow marsh
By including the changes that they have they have yet again shown that they are completely out of touch with what the core issues are that we struggle with from fight to fight
kindred rapids
Would prefer though if they added an aoe finisher that's baseline
slow marsh
Regarding m+ trinkets to farm (besides the Legion one that isnt available rn), a...
totem
iqd
liquid ooze
normal mist
That last one reduced my dungeon list to farm to 1
kindred rapids
They don't need to rework the spec to do that
indigo mulch
Ooze is pretty good only like 40 dps difference between phail and ooze tbh
oak sky
a hotfix was never going to fix our underlying issues
normal mist
had both 252 last season!
oak sky
literally never
slow marsh
I mean no, our issues go far deeper than that
kindred rapids
Lots of solutions that don't require a total rework
slow marsh
But in terms of our current struggles in the current content
Buff fok 50% and buff katar and you maybe add some value to our aoe
if that was the goal
sterile chasm
if that was the goal
If you want buff assa aoe
Just steal Azeroth powers from last expansion and add it into talents or baseline
It’s so ez
oak sky
another thing
slow marsh
I mean kinda I guess not really
slow marsh
nobody wants that
oak sky
ever
slow marsh
anyways
but i'm saying that even within their scope of shitty ass throw-away "we talked about this for literally 3 minutes and decided" changes.... it could've been way better
like 30% buff on fok is never ever in a million years going to put any dent in our aoe without being coupled with a PK buff or HB (which is forbidden but ii'm going there) buff coupled along side of it. Sub will still remain better on the one fight that was supposed to be assassination's wet dream
sterile chasm
Assa need rework
limber lion
Lol
oak sky
like 30% buff on fok is never ever in a million years going to put any dent in o...
thats sub tiers fault
deft vault
Assa need rework
It doesnt really need much
slow marsh
It does from a overall functionality perspective but I think people have also been saying that for 5 years so
oak sky
wait are you talking about a class that has never had significant changes in modern wow needing a decent sized update?
you must be insane
sterile chasm
It doesnt really need much
Assa need talent rework talent tree is complete shit
fleet anchor
Every time they try to rework parts of Assassination they tend to revert it lol
Assassination and Feral are two mirrored time capsules 😄
I don't really think they need to do a full overhaul but some changes would be nice
oak sky
well yeah a full overhaul is definitely the wrong way to go about it
core gameplay of bleeds and vendetta is fine
inner pier
@rigid mango Yo is vulpera bis now or what?
sterile chasm
But they cut it off
Assa was playable on m+ in bfa so they cut his cool aoe things
fleet anchor
Part of this can be blamed on the borrowed power era
Not too many specs even get any sort of core work
Only ones that are considered "broken"
And Shadow Priest because they have to be reworked every xpac by contractual obligation to Preach 😄
oak sky
its like the yearly ryze rework
rigid mango
<@!231503278695907328> Yo is vulpera bis now or what?
Nah next patch man
limber lion
I like how most people think CT should be baseline, but then hate the idea of playing CT in ST
slow marsh
That's because it's easier to just have the team dedicated to the BP stuff (tier/covs/items etc) "fix" specs instead of having one of the 3 class devs take away time from grooming mage / lock / druid to look at rogue
fleet anchor
"How can we improve eclipse mechanics for Balance this xpac" and "how can we rework Shadow Priest" generally takes up at least half their time 😄
I wish that was a joke
slow marsh
Yeah it must cuz otherwise idk what they're doing over there with their hours lol
oak sky
I like how most people think CT should be baseline, but then hate the idea of pl...
because its so degen 
slow marsh
But if CT is made baseline it WILL be used in ST
So Sir Brian is right on the money with that one
quaint sequoia
Dont give us more baseline keybinds please
obtuse robin
that how u can tell someone has never played outlaw for anytime
complaining about ct in st
slow marsh
yueahhhhhh idk
strange python
all i know is playing outlaw hurts my hand
slow marsh
i don't want to assume anything but
obtuse robin
coming from maining outlaw
slow marsh
if you can't handle more buttons for assassination then idk
obtuse robin
pressing ct in st feels like notyhing
glass tulip
feels like im refreshing CT every 8 seconds 
slow marsh
That's how it should be
obtuse robin
i do not like pressing ct every other global during ven that does feel like shit
glass tulip
doesnt mean I have to like it 
slow marsh
I mean the way that exsang works it just buns that's true but
balmy condor
strange python
i do not like pressing ct every other global during ven that does feel like shit
thats what i dont like
outside of it, not that bad
quaint sequoia
I just dont want more keys to press
slow marsh
I just dont want more keys to press
play arms i guess
or DH if you want to press 3 buttons really fast
quaint sequoia
my alt is dh 🤷♂️
slow marsh
makes sense
spice epoch
Ct = crimson tempest? How would that work baseline would it also procc poison bomb? 😄
quaint sequoia
but fb+db build aint best so cba play it
balmy condor
Ct = crimson tempest? How would that work baseline would it also procc poison bo...
It would not
woven ruin
So, did I miss a hotfix of something or are we just talking in here?
balmy condor
So, did I miss a hotfix of something or are we just talking in here?
Weekly reset buffs fok by 30%
spice epoch
30 % fan of knives buff ^^
obtuse robin
lol
woven ruin
Ah, big improvement. Now I can look my warlock in the eyes....
balmy condor
I don’t think it’s even enough to fok on 3
strange python
i have never panicked more playing sin 4p on pantheon
slow marsh
it makes me sad that i'm having more fun leveling from 65-70 on my TBC classic rogue than i am playing retail with full 4p zooted up
copper sundial
wow that fok buff, time to drop my enhance shammy and go back to rogue
obtuse robin
demo got nerfed
ebon notch
demo got nerfed
where
balmy condor
The same note
With the fok buff
It’s like a 5-7% nerf or something from what my warlock says
pure moth
Demonic Consumption’s now causes your Demon Commander to drain 12% of the life from your other demons (was 15%).
balmy condor
Also nerfs the rallying cry on pull bullshit
hollow dirge
even there on m+ ovearall he sent, 15,5% deadly, and you were still correct 😄
slow marsh
basically fire mages should be getting PI now instead of demo and now demo locks everywhere are crying that they were balanced and it was PI that was broken wah
oak sky
doesnt matter tho because i wasnt talking about m+
hollow dirge
yeye, but the counter arguement, even though it stood on no legs, was also not a counter arguement 😄
slow marsh
I love how someone asked if we should fok in 4+ targets 2 lines above that screenshot
hollow dirge
30% buff on a 3.5% damage ability
Yeah, as long as we go necro for m+ , that’s not buff that will be at all noticable
balmy condor
It’s not noticeable on any covenant
Venthyr looks exactly the same except there’s flag instead of sbs
hollow dirge
I mean, as long as we go sub for m+*😂
slow marsh
It'll be noticeable when I go PK conduit + HB and get benched
balmy condor
True
I’m waiting for someone to take HB and then look at the tooltip of fok
And get so omegabaited
oak sky
400% OF THAT OMG
balmy condor
GUYS THE FOK TOOLTIP THO LIKE 50K AND THEN 30% ON TOP
AND THATS LIKE
NUMBER
OMGOMGOMGOMG
woven ruin
Never understood when people want dot specs to have big damage buttons, why not buff the dots lol
oak sky
we dont need that rn really we just have a bad kit for aoe that if they buff will make our st and cleave broken
dawn ivy
"hard" to balance dots in ST/aoe
spice epoch
I thin it’s super hard to tune dots tbh, especially when you start spreading on multi target etc
slow marsh
They had to make our 2p the way that it is because our dots do next to no damage
spice epoch
Just look at affli/sp 100 reworks lol
warm sable
GUYS THE FOK TOOLTIP THO LIKE 50K AND THEN 30% ON TOP
what Tooltip ?
dawn ivy
Just look at affli/sp 100 reworks lol
both those classes do their aoe without dots though
im prety sure?
balmy condor
what Tooltip ?
oak sky
energy BatChest
dawn ivy
spriest is mostly aoe flay, affi is aoe spender
oak sky
shadow is literally just searing nightmare
dawn ivy
yeah
oak sky
literally
slow marsh
we dot so that we can dot more and it's a closed loop
dawn ivy
the dots are basically flavor text during aoe
hollow dirge
shadow is literally just searing nightmare
Almost as complicated as sub
dawn ivy
fair enough
slow marsh
it wouldn't have been such a bad thing to just buff the shit out of fok by like 75% so our aoe becomes we multidot to funnel more fok
half light
wouldn't it be nice if we got Venomous Wounds to benefit from CT?
oak sky
doesnt do anything really
half light
wow wtf
spice epoch
Yeah sorry for my wording, it’s basically cleave I mean stacked Aoe is just seed or searing nightmare but if u can have all dots running on multiple targets etc it’s just hard to tune that versus pure single target
hollow dirge
It would just guarantee that you play CT single target
Good. Fuck pb anyway😂
dawn ivy
it wouldnt even give us that much more damage in aoe
half light
so assa would need a huge revamp to let it make aoe?
dawn ivy
but it would do alot for ST lmao
balmy condor
so assa would need a huge revamp to let it make aoe?
Yeah it would need to be not Assassination
half light
dawn ivy
so assa would need a huge revamp to let it make aoe?
not a HUGE revamp, just move ALOT of the damage comes from OR a big revamp
hollow dirge
Think ct should do more dmg depending on amount of rogue dots already on target
strange python
feral druid conduit^
balmy condor
Assassination is fundamentally not aoe
dawn ivy
i dont think blizz can hide behind that train of thought anymore tbh
slow marsh
Na I mean like I said just buff the shit out of FoK so it does meaningful damage and our loop becomes dot for energy to spam fok since it doesn't give consistent cp so that we can dot more to fuel more fok
somber fractal
if it's not aoe then it should really shine in st which is doesnt
half light
or more like 2-3 targets then st, no?
spice epoch
Assassination is fundamentally not aoe
I mean neither was sub right?
slow marsh
it would at least work until they realize that we will actually tell them how they need to rework assassination so they stop throwing blind darts and missing
balmy condor
Correct, sub was a funnel spec
hollow dirge
if it's not aoe then it should really shine in st which is doesnt
It’s not a sin tier no, but it’s not that bad either
somber fractal
or more like 2-3 targets then st, no?
if a spec is designed to only be good at specifically 2-3 target encounters then it's a poorly designed spec
also we arent that good at 2 target fights lol
hollow dirge
Correct, sub was a funnel spec
And that still is , just that it feels bad using evis instead of bp on multiple targets 😩😁
half light
also we arent that good at 2 target fights lol
that's awful cuz I remember some fights with 2 bosses were good for sin before 😦
balmy condor
I mean sin is the 2 target rogue spec
half light
like the 2nd boss from ToS, unless I'm mistaken
spice epoch
And that still is , just that it feels bad using evis instead of bp on multiple ...
Yeah and be 10k below top damage in a key xD I know the struggle
balmy condor
It just loses at anything higher 
slow marsh
im with whisp in that the fact that sub is better than sin on pantehon kinda just explains current tuning by itself
somber fractal
we are pretty much feral now. we bring nothing to raid and we have to work 10x harder to do 70% of the damage as other classes that just shit out random cleave while doing their st rotation
fleet anchor
Assassination is fundamentally not aoe
I wouldn't really say it's fundamentally not AoE. I mean maybe right now. Legion I don't really think it was true because PK traits brought a lot of power to FoK. I think it's fair to say Assassination isn't a burst AoE spec, but it's had various periods where it's a strong sustained AoE spec.
Not so much right now but that's mostly because FoK is a useless button
dawn ivy
hiding behind thematic damage profiles just doesnt make sense in modern wow
slow marsh
i mean they've already gone against that within our own class so yeah
hollow dirge
Also, going back to fok after shuriken, feels like somebody actually replaced my aoe button on assassination with sub backstab
ebon notch
Also, going back to fok after shuriken, feels like somebody actually replaced my...
backstab crits for like
half light
would it make sense to let sin do either kind of damage (aoe, st, etc) through talents? switching them, I mean
balmy condor
Not so much right now but that's mostly because FoK is a useless button
Should’ve been 100% buff
dawn ivy
would it make sense to let sin do either kind of damage (aoe, st, etc) through t...
i mean yeah thats literally the point of talents
ebon notch
just make fok cp gain work like shuriken storm
slow marsh
and that'd just be a starting point
ebon notch
and easy clap
dawn ivy
theyre meant to adjust your dsamage profile to meet your needs
fleet anchor
Like initial version of Echoing Blades was totally busted and would have made Assassination one of the best AoE specs in the game, so it's kinda like.. they could easily make Assassination good at AoE, just a matter of if they want to or not. And they don't seem to. 😄
ebon notch
undo the 30% damage buff
half light
what was echoing blades?
balmy condor
just make fok cp gain work like shuriken storm
2cp baseline so it still has seal fate
ebon notch
2cp baseline so it still has seal fate
wait whats seal fate again
slow marsh
fok working like shuriken storm still doesn't fix sin aoe
oak sky
crit thingy
fleet anchor
what was echoing blades?
When you crit with FoK you did another FoK up to 5 times
balmy condor
Crit cp
hollow dirge
just make fok cp gain work like shuriken storm
That’s what I meant with backstab. Any time you get 1cp from an ability that deals no dmg as well, you feel brain dmgd for loving this spec enough to go m+ with it😂
oak sky
daps
ebon notch
i know things i just dont know their names
half light
every crit gives another cp
ebon notch
oh nice
slow marsh
yeah it doesn't solve anything
oak sky
its just boring as fuck
somber fractal
member when poison bomb did damage in legion
ebon notch
everythings boring
half light
fok working like shuriken storm still doesn't fix sin aoe
they said it was a start, it makes sense to me cuz it allows you to funnel damage easier than now, I guess
ebon notch
just make it like 5% less boring
slow marsh
like cool now we get more cp to bleed more to waste more energy bleeding more
fleet anchor
I mean to put it this way. This is gonna sound like a lot. BUT
Not using FoK at all for Assassination right now in 4T
slow marsh
they said it was a start, it makes sense to me cuz it allows you to funnel damag...
funnel with what
dawn ivy
member when poison bomb did damage in legion
yeah and it was pure unadulterated RNG and was aids
slow marsh
that's the issue
fleet anchor
Is only a 14% DPS loss
half light
member when poison bomb did damage in legion
I remember when a bomb popped and suddenly you had aggro LOL
fleet anchor
That seems like "a lot"
But I can't imagine many other specs that if they didn't even use their AoE ability in 4T
ebon notch
like anyone who has compared assa to sub on pantheon for example
fleet anchor
They would only lose 14% lol
ebon notch
knows just how shit assa can feel to play
slow marsh
because we have no payoff for our aoe
they had a chance to do that by buffing fok by a billion %
fleet anchor
Actually I lied
That's with PB
With CT not using FoK in 4T is uhh..
-6.8% 🤣
Good button
oak sky
slow marsh
yeh that's pathetic
spice epoch
I remember when a bomb popped and suddenly you had aggro LOL
I like bomb to, just make bomb do 1 million damage and we good
fleet anchor
In 3T, FoK is only +1.4% DPS
dawn ivy
i mean that makes sense, Fok only has mass posion application as its advantage over mutilate
kindred rapids
Just checked a random pantheon kill, fok was 2% of my dmg
dawn ivy
well now thats not a good perspective to look through
half light
awesome! 2.6% dmg!
dawn ivy
the fight is 2 target for 60% of it
oak sky
relevant part of the fight is 4T technically
slow marsh
and yet sub still shits on sin for it
even though sub is one of the worst 2t specs in teh game
ebon notch
i think outlaw and sin should team up and pull a warlock
and just claim we do no fucking damage
fuck up the apl so that it does exactly n-2k dps
so we know how much we do but nobody else
pull out all the stops massive PR campaign
slow marsh
na that's scummy
ebon notch
have jpc break down on stream
slow marsh
we shouldn't need to do that
kindred rapids
Lol
ebon notch
have cev have a proper mental breakdown and become brian for 6 months
half light
after doing 12 hours of sims
with max sims from raidbots
slow marsh
I do wonder how they managed to come up with 30%
like they really just toss numbers out there huh
oak sky
probably
kindred rapids
When you said team up I was thinking getting a version of bf, call it "bleed" flurry, which causes our bleeds to cleave
ebon notch
When you said team up I was thinking getting a version of bf, call it "bleed" fl...
i wanna hit one target and do big dam
to every target
is that so hard
kindred rapids
Hell yeah brotha
fleet anchor
Should’ve been 100% buff
But yeah I agree with this. If you aren't gonna buff it by at least 100% there's actually no point imo.
slow marsh
it just shows they didn't actually look at any numbers
fleet anchor
Or they only look at the damage numbers and nothing else
slow marsh
they just said yeah why not fok 30% seems good enough
half light
When you said team up I was thinking getting a version of bf, call it "bleed" fl...
aoe exsanguinate
slow marsh
scari has nothing to do with it
balmy condor
He’s an items guy
slow marsh
none of which are the focal point rn
crystal raft
30% buff means i'll go from pressing fok once when there's like 8 targets to maybe once when there's like 6 targets
balmy condor
And couldn’t get the tech to work
half light
And couldn’t get the tech to work
how?
spice spire
half light
so if you activated it, it wouldn't make bleeds around you go faster or so?
crystal raft
i feel like the only time i press it is on those mass pulls or like killing the ghouls on anduin
ebon notch
they should make it so that
when we press vanish
with MA
everything crits as long as we're in MA
fleet anchor
Like I think if they look at something like "Mutilate does 3.3k damage and FoK does 4.3k damage on 3T we can buff it to 5.6k damage and it's still better than Mutilate at 2T"
ebon notch
so we can just sit there
fleet anchor
Ignores the fact that
a) Mutilate is better at generating CP
b) Mutilate has double chance to trigger poisons
balmy condor
It was supposed to take the bleeds on your target and aoe it to all
half light
It was supposed to take the bleeds on your target and aoe it to all
ohhh, like a seed from locks?
half light
poison seed lol
slow marsh
Ignores the fact that
assuming they understand how the spec they made works
fleet anchor
And now with current setups there's even the consideration that with energy saturation from bleeds
It's BETTER to use Mutilate for Dusk because it's more efficient use for Energy->GCD ratio
for lowering Vendetta
dawn ivy
because mutilate costs more energy per global?
fleet anchor
Yes
dawn ivy
yeah makes sense
slow marsh
i mean obvi you would fan in downtime but ye
dawn ivy
once you have enough energy income, weird things are bound
kindred rapids
It's BETTER to use Mutilate for Dusk because it's more efficient use for Energy-...
Big brain stuff there
fleet anchor
I mean at the end of the day all specs are complicated
kindred rapids
As long as you're not playing venth I suppose
fleet anchor
You really have to dig in to do targeted stuff like this
If you aren't going to understand it, just aura buff lol
slow marsh
but that's kinda the thing
they targeted fan
that's why it seems like a slap in the face to me
like what they think we're gonna pair this buff with PK and all of a sudden have big aoe dam out of nowhere?
kindred rapids
that's why it seems like a slap in the face to me
Seems like a bit much
dawn ivy
i dont see why they dont do a monthly tuning pass on talents that no one E V E R plays. smallest of buffs to venom rush/MP/HB every week until you actually see people using it sometimes in the respective content
kindred rapids
Just means they don't understand the spec
half light
i was like wtf weekly, sounded like affixes for talents but yeah that sounds pretty good
hollow dirge
they targeted fan
It does not make any sense yes. It’s literally like there’s some dev there, who’s part of assa ravenholdt and he wanted to laugh at as for some hour so he came up with that idea and is now enjoying his beer , watching this conversation
slow marsh
I'm saying it's a slap in the face to the spec not to me personally. idgaf. but they would've been better off not changing anything than making this change. it was simply a waste of the 3 mins of dev time they put into it
fleet anchor
I mean I don't think they were being malicious, just not really having the depth of understanding they need
kindred rapids
It does not make any sense yes. It’s literally like there’s some dev there, who’...
Actually I change my mind, this seems likely
fleet anchor
Hanlon's razor and all that lol
slow marsh
yeeeeeeeee
dawn ivy
I blame whispyr, he could have had a mental breakdown on twitter like druids and warlocks
slow marsh
Pretty sure that's guy's thingnot whisp
umbral rapids
Lmao
kindred rapids
Pretty sure scaris the only dev that hangs out here. If he's not involved in class changes... God help us
slow marsh
I doubt he is at all. He has mentioned passing along info and it ended up being implemented in terms of bug fixes but those were bug fixes
dawn ivy
i mean.....hes not LOL
dawn ivy
one of the real reasons why pinging him does literally nothing
oak sky
do not dm me
crystal raft
in 2 more expansions they'll add back the azerite powers that made our aoe playable, just you wait
dawn ivy
do not dm me
im showing you my feet whether you want them or not
half light
Ohhh idk if Shrouded Suffocation helped aoe but I loved it
crystal raft
shrouded and the fok crit thing made aoe fun for assassination for once
somber fractal
my dudes anyone play night fae still? i like it so much more than venth
crystal raft
still unnecessarily more work when you could play outlaw, press blade flurry and stop thinking but
dawn ivy
shrouded allowed us to really tap into that 2-3 target niche, and then Echoing blades propped up our true aoe
fleet anchor
So just did some tests
If they buffed FoK by 100%, using it in 2T instead of Mutilate would be a 3.5% DPS increase
dawn ivy
pog FoK hype train....and you still only generated 1 cp
fleet anchor
in 3T it would be 8.5% over the current APL that only uses it in 3T occasionally
half light
pog FoK hype train....and you still only generated 1 cp
damn I ahte when I use it like 3 times and 3 times I get only 1 CP like wtf
slow marsh
pog FoK hype train....and you still only generated 1 cp
i dont even care that it doesn't generate cp if it actually does damage
let sub have ss
fleet anchor
So 100% buff might actually be a noticeable enough DPS increase for people to actually see some increase in practical AoE scenarios
slow marsh
Ye I mean i'd have to think that even at 75% it would make a noticeable difference in aoe situations
To where you would actually maybe slot in PK conduit for aoe fights
/ m+
dawn ivy
dammit this is why i dont join assa discussion, i just miss 3SS/2EB/1TTK now
fleet anchor
30% is enough that I may change the APL slightly for 3T scenarios to use it slightly more often
But it's gonna be like..
less than 2%
slow marsh
Yeah I mean it seems like the intention wasn't really the 2/3t stuff but more stuff like anduin / pantheon / m+ in general
fleet anchor
Basically it might just be enough to eliminate the sub-4T tab-Mutilate line
That's about it
For a VERY minor gain
kindred rapids
I'm sure it's just their sop for making quick adjustments. Something is weak in st? Buff their st abilities. Weak in aoe? Buff their aoe abilities. So some unwitting dev was probably told to go aura buff all of our aoe abilities only to discover we have only one baseline.
crystal raft
shuriken storm generating more CP makes sense for sub since they rely on finishers more, at least conceptually; i wouldn't mind if they just made it so FOK's thing was it did a lot of upfront damage and didn't generate extra cp
fleet anchor
If they wanted to shake things up in an interesting way, I think "applying poisons at their normal rate" would maybe be the part I changed
slow marsh
Yeah i'm kinda dead set on the idea that fan should do meaningful aoe damage so that our aoe gameplay loop is multi dot for energy saturation so we can spam fan
kindred rapids
The more concerning thing is that this is not something they seem to have put much thought into in terms of our class design up until now.
fleet anchor
Could change FoK to apply poisons 100% or at double rate or something
And buff it without feeling too much like Storm
slow marsh
Like buff fan to 100% increased damage and make it 50 energy again
Then we can have some fun
fleet anchor
Lots of things they could do if they were feeling creative though 😄
kindred rapids
Do something cool like fok crits put some stacking bleed or empowered poison on the target
ebon notch
they do seem to lack creativity in a lot of ways
like theyre too scared to try new things
or maybe its too much effort
verbal radish
Haven't played with 4p yet. What is our vendetta cooldown at with it and new leg?
slow marsh
Ofc there's lots of creative stuff, i'm just talking about in line with their current thought process
fleet anchor
But like in our current APL with the current FoK tuning
It's actually DPS neutral to spam FoK vs. mostly using Mutilate and only using FoK to apply poisons
In 3T
Which is goes to show how weak FoK really is
half light
Do something cool like fok crits put some stacking bleed or empowered poison on ...
really deadly venom
fleet anchor
In current sustained 3T AoE it's neutral to spam FoK 150 times vs. 119 mutilates and 20 FoKs
AoE generator should be a NO BRAINER in 3T
umbral rapids
Fok feels very weird after you see shuriken storm
oak sky
3t is a weird middle ground between cleave and aoe
umbral rapids
Well mostly CP but yeah
kindred rapids
really deadly venom
Precisely
fleet anchor
Well Storm applying AoE FW is important plus the CP gen
umbral rapids
Yeah
slow marsh
yeah idk i'll die on the hill that fok can keep the rng / seal fate / low cp average as long as it does big dam
fleet anchor
We care about applying AoE poisons but FoK isn't all that amazing for that anyway
umbral rapids
Fok feels kinda sad
fleet anchor
Because FoK literally procs poisons half as often as Mutilate
Since Mutilate has 2 proc opportunities
slow marsh
CT does a better job of that
fleet anchor
And yes CT direct damage can proc poisons also at the same rate as FoK
umbral rapids
yeah idk i'll die on the hill that fok can keep the rng / seal fate / low cp ave...
But then a builder that does ton of damn is a little odd too no ?
slow marsh
not when the builder doesn't build much
dawn ivy
maybe change hidden blades into something that makes your Fan do 10% more dam for every dot on surrounding targets, capping somewhere
slow marsh
the core aspect of sin aoe that's missing is that we have no payoff for multidotting
umbral rapids
Like i don’t feel like it feels bad because of dam but more because of how it interacts (or doesn’t) with the rest of the spec
slow marsh
we get energy capped dotting everything up so that we can.........dot everything up again
envenom spam is laughable but the only thing we really have
umbral rapids
I’m 100% just talking about how i feel about it btw I might be very wrong
Just personal impressions
dawn ivy
mastery is a pretty big red flag showing how bad our aoe is
slow marsh
making fok a spam worthy ability in aoe would give reason to put effort into getting energy saturated in aoe
umbral rapids
we get energy capped dotting everything up so that we can.........dot everything...
Sure.
dawn ivy
when our aoe is all about dots, and our mastery is ONLY affecting our dots, and its still shit, theres a big problem
slow marsh
ye
crystal raft
i think that can be said about mastery in general for the spec lol
dawn ivy
likee thats just funamentally broken somewhere
slow marsh
baseline buffing our mastery ratio by like 25% would help a lot too
crystal raft
how is 'increases dot damage' the worst stat for a dot spec
dawn ivy
nah mastery works in single target, its just not our best secondary
crystal raft
just feels like a design mess
fleet anchor
I think the PK idea from Legion was neat and they could have gone further with it
dawn ivy
it makes sense that our current iteration, mastery isnt great for ST
half light
I think the PK idea from Legion was neat and they could have gone further with i...
what was pk again?
fleet anchor
When Fan of Knives strikes targets poisoned with your Deadly Poison, Deadly Poison instantly deals 4% of its remaining damage.
This was neat but I think it's maybe too isolated because FoK is what applies DP in AoE realistically
I think this could be extended to be bleeds AND poisons
Which would be a really neat payoff for multi-dotting
crystal raft
having that work with a subterfuge-empowered garrote would be pretty awesome
dawn ivy
it was nice, not too bursty, did good dam, but gave us a feedback loop
actually had an ending, payoff
fleet anchor
Multi-dotting gives a lot of energy but we're still mostly constrained by our CP gen in terms of translating Envenom into a payoff
So we kinda need a different angle
slow marsh
Yeah envenom isn't a payoff compared to evis
craggy oak
Be nice if we had subterfuge baseline along with ct, and sumin on cd that mass applied rupture, doesnt solve the pay off issue but would be nice
slow marsh
subt should stay a talent imo
fleet anchor
Honestly think something like a bleed-like PK trait actually would slot in really well
craggy oak
Really
slow marsh
ye
dawn ivy
buff subterfuge though
slow marsh
ye
dawn ivy
buff that whoel fucking row
half light
what about base 2cp, subt -> 3cpo
umbral rapids
I mean with subt and 2cp it’d cap you in 3 garrotes
slow marsh
MA and NS can get reworked to be on teh same level as subt
umbral rapids
Which sounds good enough
slow marsh
3 gars is all you get in subt anyways
dawn ivy
its not though, the whole row is worthless, with subterfuge being the only "real" talent in that row for keys
in ST all three of the talents are barely even 100 dps
slow marsh
but that's what I';m saying subt is the goal to buff the others to
umbral rapids
3 gars is all you get in subt anyways
Yeah that’s my point. If it gave 3cp you gar-gar then you’re maxed on CP already and have to press rupt
craggy oak
Some talent or passive or whatever, every energy/ combo points spent, dunno which, makes your current bleed and or posion ttick for an amount, kinda like pk
dawn ivy
i disagree, i think the row is in sucha sorry state thaty evne subterfuge isnt a real talent.
craggy oak
But you would be rewarded for the more you do
slow marsh
subt as a talent in isolation is good
dawn ivy
the gain of subterfuge is the ability to triple garrote, thats basically just QOL
umbral rapids
Subt is a cool talent ngl, as a casual sin enjoyer it’s pretty fun
slow marsh
it's also the empowerment but like as a talent it's good. garrote itself is what needs help
fleet anchor
Subterfuge is fine, it's just better in a dungeon/solo environment than in raid where it relies on Vanish
dawn ivy
make your subterfuged garrotes pulse small AoE
give it actual umph instead of just 80% bonus to the alrweady low damage garrote does
fleet anchor
Also would be better if Garrote could actually apply Deadly Poison 🙂
slow marsh
Like that row is built around stealth / vanish. Subt is clearly the best talent of the three. NS the worst, MA the most boring
craggy oak
1 min vabish baseline not bring way more value to that row?
slow marsh
change MA to be a % damage amp coming out of stealth for 3/4s or something and NS you can just rework entirely and now you have a solid stealth row
fleet anchor
Still find it utterly hilarious that Shiv of all things can't apply Deadly Poison... when the whole damn purpose of that ability for like a decade was applying poisons 🤣
umbral rapids
Oh lol
slow marsh
Still find it utterly hilarious that Shiv of all things can't apply Deadly Poiso...
too true
literally weapon swap macros with different poisons specifically to shiv
past bobcat
The fan of knives buff is okay? Or fan combo point generation still what’s holding it behind
restive falcon
thoughts on FoK buffs? still trash??
jaunty hill
It‘s a tiny buff, nothing to fancy.
But I‘ll take it before they overthink it.
restive falcon
still gotta play sub for keys 
jaunty hill
Never gonna play sub til I drop
timid cloud
30% of 0 is still 0, not the best at math…
jaunty hill
I try to squeezy every tiny bit out of sin.
I was always like f..k the meta
timid cloud
Maybe if they fixed this darn CP generation bug with FOK where it only gives 1 CP when I hit 10 targets…(there is no actual bug, for legal reasons I must state that this is a joke, everything is working as intended.)
balmy condor
thoughts on FoK buffs? still trash??
omega trash
if you didn't read the patch note you wouldn't notice
bleak sky
I try to squeezy every tiny bit out of sin.
I was always like f..k the meta
legit doesn't matter
still a trash builder with trash damage
timid cloud
It was actually so inconsequential that they didn’t even bother mentioning it at all.
versed mica
Fok conduit gonna be bussin after fok damage buff
spice spire
oak sky
Yeah for sure bro
spice spire
That’s going on your quarterly review
versed mica
Lmfao
timid cloud
Yeah, still waiting on my Echoing Blades or Shrouded Suffocation conduits.
That’s coming soon, right, y’all?
spice spire
Shrouded talent inc
versed mica
spice spire
timid cloud
fleet whale
Hey everyone, I just found an assassination rogue leak coming in 10.0:
Slice and Dice is now passive for assassination
ebon notch
ur capping
zinc frost
Huge damage
hollow river
zinc frost
It’s definitely a number
hollow river
🧢
balmy condor
it does 0.4% of our dps
150% would be 0.6% gain
cmon
you can't tell me that isn't big
zinc frost
Meanwhile warlocks on Twitter absolutely malding
hollow river
balmy condor
9000000000000000% damage buff to something that does 0 damage
or 5% aura buff
nothing else
hollow river
I’m half ass surprised they buffed fire mage
But then again I’m not
They weren’t top dps in all content so I’m sure they were crying
Meanwhile Firedup was decimating the meters the entire race
balmy condor
was he playing fire
bleak sky
the most cracked mage doing damage? I'm shocked
hollow river
was he playing fire
Mostly yes
oak sky
pi receiever
hollow river
Besides like Anduin and maybe a couple other bosses
oak sky
extra e
hollow river
Yeah ik but he still destroyed the demos who were getting PI too didn’t he
silent tinsel
bleak sky
2 whole other weapons
zinc frost
Actual hard copium right there
oak sky
"big time"
bleak sky
yes the +8 players are pog
oak sky
do people actually think you need double sword for outlaw
zinc frost
Thanks blizzard this will help me with my 5 + keys
bleak sky
do people actually think you need double sword for outlaw
yes
hollow river
do people actually think you need double sword for outlaw
Ye
bleak sky
nah man have you seen jack sparrow
silent tinsel
They are actually more of a hybrid of swashbuckler and european fencing thematics
hollow river
I’m ngl I thought the same at first, like I knew you could wield daggers
But I thought it was like sub where it would be a loss or something
bleak sky
it's 2 poxstorms or you can't play outlaw ON GOD
silent tinsel
Sylvanus is bis OH outlaw
oak sky
it's 2 poxstorms or you can't play outlaw ON GOD
no k
bleak sky
really need my poggiestormies to run +5s
zinc frost
<:Hmmm:827640761699794946>
I gotta find this post so I can thank this guy for speaking on my behalf, true hero of sin rogues
hollow river
Dude the amount of cringe you see in LFR tho
balmy condor
<:Hmmm:827640761699794946>
I'm boutta fire up the forums and commit a hate crime bro
oak sky
Dude the amount of cringe you see in LFR tho
me and my guildies tried to kick people so we could get all the tier gar
hollow river
“4 set double leggo req” for my +9 we pushing this key for time geyZ
oak sky
you know when we did it we were the only ones that didnt die on vg
oak sky
lfr has no requirements but you see some fried shit
zinc frost
you know when we did it we were the only ones that didnt die on vg
Damn that’s a big achievement, dying on VG lfr
oak sky
they just didnt stand in the shields
zinc frost
“Damn that looks like a protective shield, better not stand in it”
glass tulip
What weapons do you even use on outlaw
balmy condor
vault pox and a 278 dagger I think
hollow river
None because you don’t play it at all
silent tinsel
Pox and 259 sylvanus
balmy condor
let me check
glass tulip
notrickz is right
hollow river
I want to use a gun or bow like the olden days
spice spire
I'm boutta fire up the forums and commit a hate crime bro
Bro?
zinc frost
What weapons do you even use on outlaw
You wield disappointment, in both hands for extra sadness
silent tinsel
oh right jailer gives you his fist
bleak sky
fist me jailer
glass tulip
daddy zovaal
glass tulip
isnt jailer mace 2h?
oak sky
not the effect one
whatever sword or fist
i swear they added one same time that we got the rygelon one
glass tulip
Gavel of the First Arbiter is 2h mace, beeg damage
fist weapon is nothing
oak sky
so?
its ilvl over pox so there would still be some chance of it being better
and i havent looked at outlaw sims so i was asking
glass tulip
can outlaw use 2h weapons?
oak sky
no
glass tulip
I thought they needed 2 1 handers
oak sky
.....
blazing pumice
agreon the jailer weapon is a 2h
balmy condor
anyway
glass tulip
why did mine get deleted
balmy condor
what were we saying
bleak sky
what were we saying
fok 30% big sin m+ viable sub days are over
brazen zodiac
exsanguinate is good
oak sky
i definitely knew the mace was strength only
i just said mace because i didnt remember it was a fist
oak sky
me
balmy condor
agreon posted the same link 25 thousand times
marble hemlock
why is he not banned yet for spam?
balmy condor
because I am a merciful god
half light
exsanguinate is good
I liked it in legion vs inquisition
But it's almost always behind
timid cloud
exsanguinate is good
🧢
balmy condor
signal pier
Guys I had a nightmare where they buffed FoK without any dev note 
timid cloud
Well...
signal pier
Dont tell me
limber swallow
30% of 0 is still 0.
kindred oriole
^^
signal pier
Im joking im joking
timid cloud
signal pier
5 hours ago we were all laughing about thia change
limber swallow
laugh / crying