Said what he said.
#assassination
timid cloud
marble hemlock
you shouldnt ever have to hit an explosive
timid cloud
Yeah. That’s when I get the flame.
Sometimes...
I just don’t want to stop damage. If I make the mobs die, explosives stop spawning.
spice spire
Did someone say stop damage 
timid cloud
marble hemlock
I just don’t want to stop damage. If I make the mobs die, explosives stop spawni...
no
explosives can spawn more explosive
even if all the mobs are dead 😛
timid cloud
Might just play some Sin this week.
Tired of being a filthy spec traitor.
But at least I'm not playing Outlaw.
plush shale
who plays outlaw 2021
plush shale
I know, I jjust kidding xd I just wish I knew how to play outlaw
timid cloud
Hit button when glow, roll if bad.
subtle tundra
i had monk fucking scream in discord bcs i was killing explosions
subtle tundra
assa
timid cloud
lol
spice spire
Cringe
timid cloud
That's what my healer does too. LOL
spice spire
Assa rogues down cataclysmic when the tank and healer aren’t being yelled at for it
subtle tundra
well it was cause he was getting crane stacks with it
restive zephyr
Hey guys, new rogue player here. What is the best way to use envenom?
limber lion
Whenever you're at 4-5 combo points with Vigor/MFD or 5-6 combo points with Deeper Stratagem, and you don't have any other finisher you want to use.
restive zephyr
Do you want to make sure you have a specific amount of energy or bleeds up prior to using it?
limber lion
You prioritize Rupture over Envenom
So you make sure to have rupture on the target before you hit Envenom
kindred rapids
First and foremost to refresh snd. Otherwise you'll want to get bleeds up first.
limber lion
Envenom is basically a filler finisher
Energy doesn't matter for now.
But you should probably read up a guide here
prisma monolithBOT
limber lion
I personally use a customized version of Afenar's weak aura pack. Quite a few people swear by Atrocity's UI and weakauras, but that's behind a slight paywall.
Here's some packs:
spice spire
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
spice spire
Sorry, Cev. Mb
restive zephyr
when you say paywall do you mean a patreon or something?
limber lion
when you say paywall do you mean a patreon or something?
A Twitch subscription afaik
kindred rapids
Good use of your prime subscription if you have one
golden basalt
took me 70 pulls but finally completed MT as sin, will no longer bitch about the fight here in disc- cheers for all tips and suggestions helped out a lot in the end
gusty mirage
took me 70 pulls but finally completed MT as sin, will no longer bitch about the...
congrats my dude
kindred rapids
Nice
spice spire
Love to see it king 
grats
restive zephyr
can you link his twitch? I'll check it out
golden basalt
only burned like 30k gold, minor success
now on to bitch in the druid disc about guardian being too hard 
glass tulip
I have a copy of his latest UI that I definitely do not keep in a shareable google folder
tiny root
Hey All - new to the spec and learning to the topes. I think an addon or wa for tracking my dots on multiple targets would be really helpful, does anyone have any recommendations for a good one?
spice spire
So I do recommend Cev’s plater profile
But for ST, the weak auras we have posted are good
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
tiny root
okay cool - thanks guys! I have luxthos right now and i didnt see anything for tracking it on multiple targets haha
spice spire
Yep, install plater
tiny root
will do - thanks boss!
spice spire
And let me get cev’s profile real quick
I’d double check with the man @limber lion himself, because I’m on mobile, but I’m 99% sure this is it
tiny root
thanks!
spice spire
Anytime best of luck homie
north basin
cobalt hemlock
i got it traded by unknowing warrior
only took 17 runs for first to appear and me getting lucky
slow marsh
bro what the
glass tulip
oh yeah baby, love that pad
slow marsh
18th run and had two faulty's drop
glass tulip
bruh
slow marsh
glass tulip
I just got a 2 CoS, want in ib?
glass tulip
it was a +2 votw, everything died too fast for garrote 
marble hemlock
so the maelstrom is basically
slow marsh
yeah my overall is really low compared ot all the havocs
slow marsh
i actually had highest overall running deathspike with MA talent
marble hemlock
oh true
spice spire
i actually had highest overall running deathspike with MA talent
Toxic onslaught MA when tho
glass tulip
slow marsh
Toxic onslaught MA when tho
I'd have to craft it first kekw
slow marsh
yeah dspike is the only way i've been able to get over 9k overall in lower vaults
spice spire
Errr the +2 was somewhere else, but low levels
It’s fine
I tried to be a good rogue and Zoldyck’s
Mistake
I mean it’s fine, But it’s a mistake playing sin in low levels when everything gets wiped 
spice spire
Nothing really matters that low anyway. Except the gear drops 
cerulean nest
glass tulip
ring dropped for the tank fuuuuuuuuu
I always think "If I had looted first would I have gotten it instead?"
slow marsh
I have a real good feeling for sure
raven vapor
wrong vault trinket twice in a row 😬
spice spire
raven vapor
anybody know if the timewalking mount can drop in legion m+?
raven vapor
that's cool to know, double the depression when counter measure doesn't drop then
glass tulip
whats the mount?
spice spire
i just had two drop
Double faulty? Based
slow marsh
Yes I opened chest and got faulty and DH was sadge
hunter opened and got faulty
i said trade to DH and you're goated and they did
spice spire
all melee homies getting fed today
gusty mirage
@slow marsh when you gonna help me get one?
slow marsh
whenever you want homie
slow marsh
well im on rn
kind talon
im in class rn 😔
slow marsh
rekt
i'm about to go do some work i think idk
Yooooo wait nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
iykyk
kind talon
sheeeeesh
alpine latch
Damnit .. Our Boomie is going Kyrian to fuck around with it but he's not giving me crit 😦
kind talon
kill him
slow marsh
na bro i'm sadge cuz nadjia is +50 now
kind talon
in real life
spice spire
kind talon
@alpine latch
spice spire
Wait nadjia went up in value?
slow marsh
ye im simming it
slow marsh
but my sim before was theo winning even without crit reroll
I will say that having BS/DS sim -85 behind ep/mfd is pretty nice tho
gusty mirage
run #18 nothing @slow marsh 
slow marsh
invite me to group
gusty mirage
what server are you on
slow marsh
thrall Icebladesx
slow marsh
why did that happen
I want to say it's beacuse I have enough crit to devalue DS and enough haste that BS doesn't really matter
gusty mirage
I want to say it's beacuse I have enough crit to devalue DS and enough haste tha...
decanter + faulty countermeasure 
that's a weee bit of crit
as much crit as a mythic sylv ring
kind talon
decanter + faulty countermeasure <:hmm:671849797119901710>
too bad decanter is dogshit
gusty mirage
too bad decanter is dogshit
too bad I didn't ask
slow marsh
I want to say it can be better than other 246 trinks but idk i haven't simmed raid gear in a while
kind talon
too bad I didn't ask
kind talon
I want to say it can be better than other 246 trinks but idk i haven't simmed ra...
what is?
slow marsh
decanter
kind talon
hm
slow marsh
it has ~40% uptime ish
gusty mirage
slow marsh
i'm not the one with the 252 version
hollow river
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/853034063014920214.png?size=240
You beat the sin tower yet?
kind talon
You beat the sin tower yet?
hollow river
??
kind talon
ye.i did it
glass tulip
kind talon
but i cant get the brewmaster tower
hollow river
but i cant get the brewmaster tower <:feelscryman:585734081304592385>
Try worryer??
kind talon
Try worryer??
maybe
gusty mirage
lmao
I know it is
it's not great
but who knows
gear combinations can be funny
thin imp
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rE8yLVbrdemtVS5E6y4Fnu
should I trust it or is a sim bait?
gusty mirage
why would it be sim bait
thin imp
dunno, sometimes it happens
austere mango
Anybody know if Sigryn can still be Blinded during her enrage? I think I just fucked up and could've CC'd her at like 21%
kind talon
glass tulip
try it :)
gusty mirage
Anybody know if Sigryn can still be Blinded during her enrage? I think I just fu...
yes
glass tulip
I have no idea
gusty mirage
but if you break the blind you're dead
austere mango
yes
Damn, then oh well 😦
yeah she punched me 3 times and didn't realize I had hit it
playing with 450ms ping on a deployment in africa, keeping the dots up and dodging stuff pretty rough with this latency lmao
but should be doable now that I know I can hit that!
fleet anchor
Countermeasure isn't bait unless Blizzard nerfs it, which they probably will because Blizzard. 🤣
kind talon
Countermeasure isn't bait unless Blizzard nerfs it, which they probably will bec...
TRUE
fleet anchor
I've been burned on farming at least 3-4 TW trinkets in the past, so maybe I'm more cynical than average but... lol
austere mango
you can always kidney her too
honestly it was the kind of thing where I was too confused the first hit, wondering where it came from, then being dead by the time I realized what I needed to do haha
golden basalt
then again theres something about a BiS trinket only being available every 6 months that doesnt sit well with me
kind talon
honestly it was the kind of thing where I was too confused the first hit, wonder...
yeah all good bro, it took me a while to get the mage tower for sin, just keep going at it and you'll get it bro
austere mango
I find it surprisingly easy with the amount of leech we got
the ping for me is just an extra affix that makes the mechanics extra rough 👀
golden basalt
idk if id be able to hit the dps check without the leech
i was just perma fighting all three of em
thin imp
then again theres something about a BiS trinket only being available every 6 mon...
and BiS finger 🙂
golden basalt
my guilds taking a break until january so im not too stressed about grabbing all the BiS stuff from TW m+ now, its all gonna be redundant once 9.2 hits anyway
unless they make it so you can continue upgrading s2 items into s3
then fuck
golden basalt
sick
glass tulip
otherwise what incentive do you have to pay daddy blizzard
golden basalt
true
kind talon
my guilds taking a break until january so im not too stressed about grabbing all...
itll be bis next season
golden basalt
yea
kind talon
whenever legion TW comes again
golden basalt
depends
kind talon
kind talon
spice spire
It’ll be similar ilvl to s3 stuff
glass tulip
anyone have vods from this weeks raid test?
glass tulip
oh I'll check em, thanks!
kind talon
holy shit
@spice spire
holy shit
shiv makes all of your bleeds crit against all targets
subtle tundra
no way
golden basalt
hmmmmmmmmmm okey
golden basalt
actually pretty pog?
golden basalt
I was pumping like crazy on pull as sin
thorny pond
lmao haste mastery bois
kind talon
actual haste mastery build
cobalt hemlock
doomblade is not affected
i mean dont you go the vendeta legendary and vendeta anyway?
thorny pond
nothing new
kind talon
the 2pc doesnt work on it
golden basalt
kind talon
golden basalt
as it should
thorny pond
sub fucking fixed too
golden basalt
Currently, DoTs applied before Vendetta runs out stay at 2x speed after it expires. This is a bug, but was left it in for the initial PTR period because it seemed potentially interesting to play around rotation-wise. Feedback’s been a little split so far on if it’s interesting or fun, so calling it out explicitly should help get some more eyes and opinions on it.
they better not change this
this is actually interesting gameplay
glass tulip
Snapshotting is a bug
golden basalt
yuh
nocturne geode
O_O i predicted it
nocturne geode
remeber when i said mastery was gonna be good
golden basalt
shhhhh
nocturne geode
and whispyr almost banned me
golden basalt
mastery dead
slow marsh
breh
twilit python
Mastery stack sin pog
kind talon
glass tulip
so the new 2-set would read: Shiv's debuff causes your Bleeds to gain 100% Critical Strike against all targets for 9 seconds.
kind talon
stop trolling bro
glass tulip
that's nuts actually
nocturne geode
stepsis
kind talon
so the new 2-set would read: Shiv's debuff causes your Bleeds to gain *100%* Cri...
Shiv causes your Bleeds to gain 100% Critical Strike against all targets for 9 seconds.
golden basalt
yea, I´d be surprised if it was actually the shiv effect as well
but prob just put a buff on you that makes bleeds 100% crit
vestal wren
Feedback post looks good
iron orchid
Will that be enough tho ? Whispyr looked doubtful earlier regarding the power of making shiv a 100% crit on bleeds being enought to make the 2pc + 4pc better
iron orchid
xD
glass tulip
looking at side monitor
iron orchid
I would have liked the 2pc to be poisons and bleeds
twilit python
Zoldycks mastery stack sin best execute 20k rupture crits pog
marble hemlock
Will that be enough tho ? Whispyr looked doubtful earlier regarding the power of...
I mean, people need to keep in mind that with new gear and everything, we'd already be looking at ~50% baseline crit. Some people have that in current gear. So the 2pc change, at least on singletarget, basically just changes the critrate from 75% "prebuff" to 100%, which isn't exactly a massive buff.
slow marsh
we already are at like 40% crit before hitting 20% drs
spark scaffold
Holy shit this looks lit
glass tulip
Wouldn't it make sense from a design standpoint to say "We want the 2-set to give a 2-3% damage increase" and then figure out how that works on a per-spec basis
and then the same process for 4-set?
slow marsh
yeah it's not as big as it seems
iron orchid
I mean, people need to keep in mind that with new gear and everything, we'd alre...
Exactly
marble hemlock
On st it basically goes from a ~1-2% to maybe 2-3%.
glass tulip
I can max my set out at 53% crit rn
marble hemlock
Crit will lose some value due to not running frost-set anymore, so maybe we won't be stacking as much crit as we already do. But it's gonna be a pretty massive crit overcapping regardless.
spark scaffold
Yeah but maybe we will be swapping to haste mastery
glass tulip
back to haste gaming lets go
golden basalt
yea
glass tulip
I love playing piano in raid
marble hemlock
Keep in mind that on pure ST, bleeds only make up ~15-20% of your damage. Whether those have 50% or 100% crit doesnt drastically alter your st damage output, especially not when its only got ~35% uptime
slow marsh
na with new stuff bleeds are like 30-40
vestal wren
I mean, people need to keep in mind that with new gear and everything, we'd alre...
you could potentially invest into haste/vers
slow marsh
it's still not that big tho
marble hemlock
Psure haste value will drop even more with the 4pc
slow marsh
yeah i've had the best success with a more balanced stat spread yesterday
marble hemlock
The 2pc will mostly be interesting for m+
twilit python
zoldycks stonks rising
iron orchid
They could also rework some of our conduits, as these are really underwhelming for the spec
they did so for enh
marble hemlock
Zoldyck stonks arent rising until it actually beats Duskwalker
Until then its just playing catch-up
spice spire
sin m+ spec
Sorry king, it’s an assassination tier, respectfully.
marble hemlock
Thematically I sadly don't like the idea at all of Shiv becoming a quasi AoE CD that buffs bleeds while still having the st poison functionality
kind talon
is the 4pc all ur bleeds or is it bleeds on the target
spice spire
Very true seli.
Bleeds on target iirc - I did some testing early but had gabagool no plater UI
marble hemlock
Not to mention the few occasions where you actually have to hold Shiv for the soothe
iron orchid
is the 4pc all ur bleeds or is it bleeds on the target
for now it's bleeds on target
spice spire
Not to mention the few occasions where you actually have to hold Shiv for the so...
All I know is pain.
kind talon
marble hemlock
The Feedback post itself is what makes me very happy. The content of it, not so much.
The fact alone that someone spent a fair amount of time detailing all the bugs, the intended changes and the planned changes in a long post, is something we haven't really had in a long long time.
humble ginkgo
spice spire
I like the content, do I wish it could have gone elsewhere, sure. But improvement on both the process and detailing the bugs are a solid step in the right direction
slow marsh
I am v happy with the post itself but unfort this is not a one and done for us
spice spire
And only a day after skipnoz was elected to community council, coincidence? I think not
iron orchid
At least they are trying things, let's just hope they'll keep listening till the end of PTR
spice spire
Yeah I agree
marble hemlock
Yeah, maybe I didn't make it clear. I meant the content as in, the bonus change to Assa, and the lack of planned changes for Outlaw/Sub
spice spire
Yeah, maybe I didn't make it clear. I meant the content as in, the bonus change ...
Well they said they plan on changing the 4p for outlaw didn’t they?
marble hemlock
I mean, it's been almost 2 weeks now since we've datamined the setbonus. People have been giving their feedback on that since day1. It's 2 weeks later now, and all Outlaw got is a "were gonna rework the 4pc, soon(tm)". That's not exactly great.
kind talon
they plan on fixing a ton of bugs for outlaw and sub, and reworking the outlaw tier set, and potentially reworking the sub tier set too
spice spire
I mean, it's been almost 2 weeks now since we've datamined the setbonus. People ...
Sure but they are getting feedback from a lot of places - it’s a good step at least
kind talon
its really really really nice that they are listening to us about these bugs and everything
spice spire
It seems the sin fix was also the easier of the bunch
kind talon
its not like the tier will release soon anyways
glass tulip
who is skip?
kind talon
who is skip?
skip is @humble ginkgo
glass tulip
8 weeks til 9.2
marble hemlock
Yeah well, I'm just a bit hesitant when it comes to "we're planning to do all of these things". I'm looking forward to all of that, same as you, but when I look at whats actually changed within 2 weeks of PTR, the list becomes very very short.
kind talon
i see
glass tulip
I guess I meant to ask what has skip done to be relevant to be chosen for the council :)
marble hemlock
It's obvious they have taken a detailed look at the feedback provided. That along fills me with more hope than I've had in a long while.
bronze pike
^
kind talon
I guess I meant to ask what has skip done to be relevant to be chosen for the co...
ok bro
glass tulip
?
marble hemlock
I don't think the council members have been chosen for relevance.
Its 95% a PR stunt.
glass tulip
im new around here 
kind talon
i have no clue what hje put into his application
spice spire
I was memeing ofc obviously skip didn’t have anything to do with it - but I’m sure (or at least hope) our boy skip will represent rogues well
kind talon
i dont rlly care about community council anyways, these feedback threads are a whole different thing anyways
slow marsh
So in short we might lose the 4p bug or we might keep it, we get maybe a 1-2 % bump on bleeds and a decent aoe buff
subtle tundra
Its 95% a PR stunt.
i should have applied :((((((((
kind talon
oh i didnt even see your post quake
marble hemlock
The Council is fully transparent, meaning the only information Blizzard will be providing there, is information they are willing to share with the public. That basically means things are already decided and developed (because it would be asinine to release information on things publicly that you haven't even confirmed yet internally), which means the feedback they will receive for it will not be groundbreaking stuff where the Council will somehow alter the direction the game is taking.
subtle tundra
Coolest gamer in my house's basement.
fleet anchor
I honestly don't get some of the notes in the post, but going to run some numbers later
umbral rapids
Like?
glass tulip
Essentially it seems like they would consider the council's feedback more seriously as "community-wide" opinions rather than someone like Whispyr's set first-look
fleet anchor
Bugfixes:
Doomblade, Serrated Bonespike, and Sepsis aren’t affected by either 2 or 4-piece bonuses
Well for one, Doomblade being in that list makes no sense.
Doomblade can't crit
glass tulip
or would I be mistaken in thinking that
spice spire
oh i didnt even see your post quake <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
Yeah 😛 didn’t want skip to think I’m making fun of him in general - just a little anecdotal humor.
gusty mirage
Doomblade can't crit
yeah he had no idea
fleet anchor
And Doomblade ticking faster doesn't matter because it's a residual DoT
gusty mirage
fleet anchor
And gets accumulated damage
slow marsh
```
Bugfixes:
Doomblade, Serrated Bonespike, and Sepsis aren’t affected by eithe...
we also aren't casting envenom enough for DB to be worth anything
fleet anchor
So ticking faster does...nothing
spice spire
Doomblade can't crit
Yeah I was wondering about that myself, it’s like, never been able to crit.
fleet anchor
So neither the 2pc or 4pc can affect Doomblade in any way
gusty mirage
tbf I don't think any of these guys are actual "class devs"
fleet anchor
Speeding it up doesn't really matter though
marble hemlock
So neither the 2pc or 4pc can affect Doomblade in any way
They could, but it would require a re-coding of Doomblade.
spice spire
Sepsis but faster
fleet anchor
It's always the same damage acumulated in
gusty mirage
never said it did
slow marsh
it already fits inside of shiv speeding it up doesn't matter
slow marsh
sepsis damage itself isn't what nf needs
spice spire
Dudes a genius
fleet anchor
I mean I would not really want them changing Doomblade haha.. it already took them about 4 patches to get it working 😛
marble hemlock
NF needs much more than that
fleet anchor
Also stuff like Sepsis ticking faster, who cares? It's on a cooldown
spice spire
Memes 😦
fleet anchor
This is the problem with the design of the 4pc
It feels way better than it is
Time dilation stuff always does
spice spire
Well with the bug in, it is better than it should be, yeah?
fleet anchor
While the 4-piece seems to be appropriately valued now that people are getting to try it
Is the other thing I don't quite get
I mean
I'm fairly sure the 4pc is really, really bad
umbral rapids
Yeah i don’t think sepsis matters
slow marsh
It's not appropriately valued
fleet anchor
Compared to almost every 4pc
umbral rapids
But it should work
slow marsh
it's value is roughly equal to 2p
gusty mirage
Compared to almost every 4pc
compared to the outlaw 4pc? or the sub 4pc?
fleet anchor
I mean the Sub 4pc with the bugfixes is gonna be
umbral rapids
compared to the outlaw 4pc? or the sub 4pc?
Lol
fleet anchor
Many many times stronger lol
marble hemlock
Its what, 5-6%?
fleet anchor
Because they don't do anything
slow marsh
The value in the 4p is in the energy gained
which isn't what they were going for at all
iron orchid
for now, it's barely viable because we are trying out duskwalker and finding it fun
marble hemlock
Compared to a lot of other 4pieces (not counting the ones we already know are getting a rework) that's not a particularly strong baseline
slow marsh
so yeah it's bad in that sense
fleet anchor
I can see how people play the 4pc and say "this feels nice"
gusty mirage
it doesn't feel nice
fleet anchor
But numerically it's really not gonna stand up to most other 4pcs
marble hemlock
Psure most people said it feels awful :x
spice spire
Yeah overcapping it doesn’t feel great
slow marsh
It does feel bad
marble hemlock
Overcapping a lot, refreshing bleeds during Vendetta a lot. None of it feels great, honestly.
fleet anchor
Well I don't agree that it feels nice, I was just saying I can see how some people give that feedback
Some people just feel like "omg I'm soooo fast this is great"
slow marsh
the opener is so bad
fleet anchor
😄
twilit python
refreshing bleeds multiple times during vendetta isnt my idea of fun idk
gusty mirage
refreshing bleeds multiple times during vendetta isnt my idea of fun idk
it isn't anyone's
slow marsh
In order to do comparable damage you have to cheese the shit out of it and while it feels "good" to change up the playstyle, whne you look at what other specs are getting it's kinda sadge
People aren't even playing CT in ST in testing yet. It's honestly awful
But we have to do it to keep up
marble hemlock
The issue I have, is that Assa probably has to make up the most DPS due to Dom-Sets going away.
fleet anchor
Anyway I'll try to get this plus the bugfixes kinda wired up in SimC this weekend probably, since I'll have to hardcore this stuff anyway
marble hemlock
Those are big shoes to fill, and the set bonus doesn't come close to that right now.
fleet anchor
To get some firm numbers
spice spire
nf rogue furition coming true
No shot
nocturne geode
i mean if the setbonus gives us crit on shov
marble hemlock
In a vaccuum, the set bonus looks a bit on the weaker side compared to other classes. But other classes arent losing 20-25% of their st damage.
spice spire
For bleeds
slow marsh
yeah it's just more obvious that the devs don't play rogue
nocturne geode
and nf gives us mastery so maybe or haste
slow marsh
like every time they do anything it's like what the heck
slow marsh
and nf gives us mastery so maybe or haste
no if you want to play mastery it would be kyrian pelagos
slow marsh
7cp ruptures inside vend and vend mostly lining up with every ER is nice. But the soulbinds don't give nearly as much as venth
marble hemlock
But again, I think the best thing to do atm is to not look at the specifics of the new bluepost, but what it means in the grand scheme of things. Providing feedback seemed to have actually done something, so everyone should keep doing it and maybe it'll have an effect before the patch goes live in ~3months
slow marsh
Ye it encourages me to give more feedback if anything
spice spire
I think this breaks the first issue I had with it - synergy in the pieces. 2p+4p may have some more gain? But also that’s a great point seli
nocturne geode
feedback =buff the other covenants now
spice spire
Feedback has lead somewhere
And that’s a feeling that I’ve not felt since returning
Some real 
rn
fleet anchor
I mean I would say
marble hemlock
If this is what we get after ~2weeks of feedback, my takeaway isnt how much more DPS the set bonus is now, but that the given Feedback was actually considered and used. Maybe not in the best way possible, but its still a whole lot better than 
fleet anchor
Right now the 2pc with the redesign does seem rather strong
gusty mirage
well if they fix the snapshotting in the 4pc
they're going to have to tweak it
because all the power comes from that "bug"
spice spire
Yes
fleet anchor
I mean I don't really know if I would say all the power
spice spire
It makes the duration far longer than originally planned
fleet anchor
It increases the value a bit
spice spire
He’s being a bit hyperbolic 😛
But what makes it feel better than it should is the bug
fleet anchor
Sure
marble hemlock
An extra 10 seconds or so of snapshotted rupture makes it a pretty significant bug
fleet anchor
I mean saying it's snapshotted maybe gives the wrong impression, idk
What's snapshotting?
fleet anchor
Like you'd have to re-adjust the duration to make it change when it expired
It's probably a mess tbh
marble hemlock
Most certainly is
fleet anchor
You are already "paying" for the higher tick rate via the lower duration
iron orchid
It surely is
fleet anchor
It's not really snapshotting inasmuch as you aren't really getting anything for free
The tradeoff is still there
marble hemlock
Well, you get more unbuffed ticks "for free" 😄
iron orchid
it's the interaction with duskwalker that makes it cool
we get to spend more energy
by generating more
'more'
fleet anchor
Problem is the ticks are all unbuffed though. Exsang isn't really a buff. 😛
spice spire
Every action is a transaction, sure
fleet anchor
Basically the only way to "fix" it would be for him to adjust it to like make the duration of the DoTs go back to normal
Because if they adjust the tick rate when Vendetta expires
marble hemlock
Getting another "exsanguinated" rupture at the end of the 4pc just means a barely noticeable DPS gain compared to not having it. The bigger implication lies in the energy gain and further reduction of Vendetta as a CD with Duskwalker, and thus having a lot more uptime on Vendetta etc. etc.
fleet anchor
And leave the shorter duration
spice spire
But the trade off for using it in half the time, is double “passive” damage.
fleet anchor
It's actually a nerf 🤣
Because it'll make that Rupture cast actually have lower DPET
lol
marble hemlock
Ye
It's why I was hoping for teh 4pc to not be a duration-reducing "speed-up"
But an actual "speed-up" similar to how Elisande bubbles worked etc.
fleet anchor
Yeah I mean if we were talking "your dots tick twice as fast"
marble hemlock
Where the duration remained unchanged
fleet anchor
This would be a VERY different conversation
iron orchid
that would be much better indeed
fleet anchor
If Vendetta was just basically like "100% DoT haste on the target"
that would be something worth getting excited about
marble hemlock
Because it would mean twice the amount of buffed DoT ticks from smth like Nightstalker or Subterfuge
fleet anchor
Yes
iron orchid
Because it would mean twice the amount of buffed DoT ticks from smth like Nights...
True
fleet anchor
That'd definitely have some potential for sure
marble hemlock
It also simply wouldn't have any issues at all when the Vendetta actually runs out
Cause it'd just stop
fleet anchor
And this is really the intuitive problem with Exsang effects because people kinda think that's what this is. But it isn't
iron orchid
I mean, subterfuge is most likely going to be the play now that master assassin won't be of much help during vendetta + shiv
kind talon
i mean subterfuge is just
not super great with the vendetta affect
it doesnt rlly do anything
twilit python
feel like bleeds just dont do enough damage idk
kind talon
in terms of synergy
limber lion
huh
marble hemlock
Well, they don't.
Assa in PvP is gonna be gnarly tho with those 2pc and 4pc bonuses 
kind talon
true
limber lion
that would be something worth getting excited about
I disagree
iron orchid
feel like bleeds just dont do enough damage idk
well that's true tho
limber lion
I mean, in terms of damage, sure
But in terms of rotation and gameplay, eh
It wouldn't change our rotation whatsoever
marble hemlock
It would be the exact same as it works now though
iron orchid
But in terms of rotation and gameplay, eh
good point
marble hemlock
Only coded differently
limber lion
The current version changes it up quite a bit, especially with the bug
marble hemlock
Without the problems
What
Having twice the tickrate, without reduced duration, would be exactly the same
iron orchid
Ceverion wants change, and the current set brought that
marble hemlock
It would still be more energy through VW
limber lion
You end up applying garrotes and ruptures much more often
Yes.
But your rotation changes
marble hemlock
In a bad way
limber lion
You use Rupture/Garrote/CT more often during Vendetta
fleet anchor
I mean, in terms of damage, sure
I mean I'm just talking strictly from the net result vs. what is there now
limber lion
Yes, and I agree
fleet anchor
Obviously none of this is really gameplay affecting in any serious way
limber lion
But rotation wise it wouldn't change a thing which is not great imo
obtuse robin
where can i read this stuff
fleet anchor
Both effects could be big dam but don't really change what we do rotationally really
limber lion
I much prefer the current version that changes it up and allows us to plan out our cooldowns and stuff better beforehand
fleet anchor
Still casting Shiv and Vendetta on CD
marble hemlock
No change is better than a bad change. The current 4pc is a bad change, rotationally.
limber lion
Instead of changing nothing
fleet anchor
Same rotation priority
limber lion
No change is better than a bad change. The current 4pc is a bad change, rotation...
I disagree wholeheartedly.
Each to their own
I really enjoy the gameplay
marble hemlock
You enjoy refreshing Ruptures and Garrotes during Vendetta?
limber lion
Why would it feel bad?
Envenom is an awful finisher and the less I have to press it, the happier I am
marble hemlock
Because you have your big damage amp up and all you do is refresh bleeds, cast fewer envenoms and watch them trickle in energy you cannot use as you overcap into oblivion. What is good about any of that?
limber lion
The more time I have to spend thinking about bleed durations beforehand, the better
toxic quail
yeah imma agree with Cev on this one
Its a nice change to refresh dots in Vendetta
since Envenom is crap
limber lion
Idk, I just like it much more than the Envenom heavy gameplay.
subtle tundra
i think i'd like the 4p
limber lion
Maybe I'm a freak.
marble hemlock
So how about we make Envenom actually feel good again, instead of giving us a damage amp that we spend most of the time in refreshing bleeds over and over that still dont deal damage
subtle tundra
it makes vendetta different
toxic quail
the only thing that sucks is how vendetta is still tied to a single target
but what can we do
marble hemlock
Only during Vendetta they dont deal damage twice as fast
limber lion
So how about we make Envenom actually feel good again, instead of giving us a da...
But the thing is... I believe that Envenom should be our filler ability, not the main source of our damage.
slow marsh
K gave em the business
limber lion
We would have to rewrite the entire spec to fit that ideology
subtle tundra
i like being a bleed oriented spec
limber lion
I believe Envenom should be the ability to press when we don't have anything better to do
subtle tundra
envenom doesnt even feel good to press
limber lion
Just to dump excess energy
marble hemlock
If we had ANY way to actually boost that damage in a meaningful way, say with legendaries or conduits or covenants, then yeah, it'd maybe feel good. But we don't. The 4pc shoehorns us into running Duskwalker, and a spec with shitloads of Energy that it cannot us doesn't feel good to me, its just an even more scuffed version of Outlaw
limber lion
Not as a main source of damage
slow marsh
I believe Envenom should be the ability to press when we don't have anything bet...
We would have to rewrite the entire spec to fit that ideology
imo
iron orchid
they could add something like "when you cast rupture or garrote on a target, it also refreshes the other"
marble hemlock
No we dont
subtle tundra
If we had ANY way to actually boost that damage in a meaningful way, say with le...
and i believe thats fine, since its a tier set. it lasts a tier
iron orchid
making it less restrictive
limber lion
We would have to rewrite the entire spec to fit that ideology
Exactly
Just like I just said
?
marble hemlock
We could just double the damage and halve the duration of bleeds, and it would already fir that bill
slow marsh
ye that's the point
marble hemlock
As youd spend more time refreshing bleeds
limber lion
oh
subtle tundra
its not like we have to play a whole expansion of the tier set
slow marsh
Envenom isn't designed to be a filler ability
limber lion
you just quoted me word-to-word so I got confused
limber lion
marble hemlock
and i believe thats fine, since its a tier set. it lasts a tier
It's not fine when every other spec gets stuff that works with a plethora of other rental powers. Outlaw and Sub alone get bonuses that interact in interesting in meaningful ways with almost a dozen different conduits, legendaries or covenant abilities. Well, it would, if they werent all bugged to hell.
wooden kiln
Hello everyone, sorry to bother you but did someone get the CoS ring? I just get it and sims tells me it's bad but shouldn't it be a strong ring?
jaunty steeple
are you simming with weekly or nightly settings
wooden kiln
Weekly
jaunty steeple
that's the issue
kind talon
Use nightly
jaunty steeple
try nightly
slow marsh
I posted a response and suggested that if they are truely stuck on the idea that shiv must give stats, then they should make it give mastery, not crit
limber lion
But it's not designed that way right now
Yeah exactly, that's why I said that it needs an entire reowkr/update.
marble hemlock
I agree. But an entire rework isnt gonna be the scope of a content patch.
shut garnet
i hope they keep the snapshotting at least
if they remove that cuz "uh bug that got bad feedback" itd be sad
slow marsh
Yeah exactly, that's why I said that it needs an entire reowkr/update.
10.0 hopium
limber lion
I agree. But an entire rework isnt gonna be the scope of a content patch.
Yeh I agree.
marble hemlock
I mean it's basically confirmed at this point that its a bug that will be fixed?
twilit python
no
slow marsh
i hope they keep the snapshotting at least
I dont
kind talon
No
limber lion
That's why I'm happy with what we got.
shut garnet
not really
twilit python
they said they might keep it
slow marsh
I'd rather them get rid of the snapshotting and actually give us something worthwhile
toxic quail
yeah im no fan of snapshotting
twilit python
snapshotting is dope
marble hemlock
I believe neither the fact that it was left in intentionally, nor the notion that if we all say we want to keep it, theyll listen and do it just because we want it.
slow marsh
I'm down for the rotational change, it's the way that it's being implemented that feels bad
marble hemlock
I've played the game for too long to believe either of those things.
But I'm happy to be proven wrong when 9.2 goes live.
limber lion
I believe neither the fact that it was left in intentionally, nor the notion tha...
It was confirmed that it was identified as a bug, but left in as a "feature" only to be removed if the community did not enjoy it.
slow marsh
The last thing I want is for them to say "oh sin is doing too well, rmeember that bug? yeah let's remove that"
limber lion
We should be seeing a forum post about the set soon enough
Who knows what will happen
Maybe they fix the bug and spice up 2p
Maybe not
I wouldn't mind an entire rework of the thing,
I just want something to change up the rotation
gusty mirage
Maybe they fix the bug and spice up 2p
they already posted it
obtuse robin
its up on wowhead\
limber lion
And not stick to the same thing we've had for years
slow marsh
I think we need to get a rework of the whole thing just because they're too stuck on these weird ideas with the current
limber lion
vestal wren
We should be seeing a forum post about the set soon enough
cev with the secret information ^^
marble hemlock
"Left in" assumes that they couldve fixed it but didnt. Seeing that theres over a dozen other bugs that are of a similar nature, I doubt any of these were left in intentionally either. They just so happened to have had a bug with the Assa 4pc that some people actually liked.
slow marsh
Maybe now he joins our side
slow marsh
Like also them acknowledging all the sub 4p bugs is worrisome because it means that sub can be even better in functionality
vestal wren
i let this up to you/etc to decide
slow marsh
meanwhile we are doing everything we can to put together the scraps to make something happen
gusty mirage
Like also them acknowledging all the sub 4p bugs is worrisome because it means t...
are we ignoring the part where they literally say it's overtuned and they plan on tuning it down?
vestal wren
Yo my Wowhead bot is broken or something
the blue tracker did not pick it up, they just added it
marble hemlock
Anyway, no point arguing what was and wasn't intentional.
obtuse robin
dam the 2pc buffs r kinda litty
slow marsh
Even if they tune it down and bring in the additional functionality of the 4p that they listed it'd still be better
slow marsh
dam the 2pc buffs r kinda litty
are they tho
slow marsh
even if they don't bug fix it, it's better
That's my point though
gusty mirage
it's clunky and feels like shit
obtuse robin
to wat we had b4 umm yes
marble hemlock
I like the communication, I like the fact that they definitely listened enough to note down the most prolific bugs that we encountered thus far, I like that they outline some of the design goals and intentions they have going forward. But the specifics of the post don't inspire confidence (yet).
gusty mirage
but its still better
slow marsh
to wat we had b4 umm yes
For aoe yeah
strange python
Yeah i like that there's some communicatio happening
slow marsh
but
fleet anchor
If we had ANY way to actually boost that damage in a meaningful way, say with le...
Honestly not even convinced about Duskwalker. I'm gonna try to put some numbers together on the weekend but frankly unless they make the 4pc a lot better I'm still reasonably convinced that Doomblade or Dashing are just stronger. In fact with the 2pc changes it's possible Dashing just gets more value since you will get 100% rate at 1 energy every Shiv duration
slow marsh
it reads as "shiv now gives bleeds against all targets +50% crit"
strange python
dude Dusk makes vendetta what, 1 min or 45 sec? either way, it aligns with every 1 min flag
marble hemlock
How would Dashing have anything to do with the 2pc?
kind talon
Honestly not even convinced about Duskwalker. I'm gonna try to put some numbers ...
Reminder that ppl are mostly thinking about dusk walker in combination with obedience
subtle tundra
it reads as "shiv now gives bleeds against all targets +50% crit"
no? cause you wont be stacking crit
subtle tundra
no frost set
fleet anchor
Sorry, I had read some suggestions the other day that Shiv Crit would apply to poisons also but looks like that was stripped out of the notes
slow marsh
cuz flag is a thing
kind talon
What
strange python
I love dashing...I also like doomblade.
fleet anchor
But still not convinced
marble hemlock
Yeah
slow marsh
crit was best stat even in 9.0.5
marble hemlock
Right now its just Bleeds
peak bobcat
does obedience sim better than Dashing for anyone else with max gear?
slow marsh
ye
strange python
no it's like a bit lower for me
marble hemlock
But yeah, I agree, I think the Duskwalker Hopium is a little strong when its currently far enough behind that the higher uptime on the 4pc might not be enough to go up against bonuses that actually boost the damage during (less frequent) vendettas instead.
kind talon
crit was best stat even in 9.0.5
But I think you only went to like 35
polar timber
Haste was stronger in 9.0 no?
slow marsh
Na it's for sure dusk
limber lion
New updates to the tier sets:
Changes to the 2p:
Your bleeds have 25% increased crit chance → 100% crit chance, and
against your current shiv target → against all targets
4p has not been changed, and the "bug" where bleeds continue to run out at accelerated rates even after Vendetta ends is still in.
Read more about it here:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/class-set-feedback-rogue/1143962/53
slow marsh
We aren't envenom enough for dashing or DB to beat dusk
marble hemlock
Maybe link to the original bluepost, not the wowhead one
iron orchid
But yeah, I agree, I think the Duskwalker Hopium is a little strong when its cur...
lining up flag + vendetta is what keeps us alive
gusty mirage
We aren't envenom enough for dashing or DB to beat dusk
db works on mut tho
fleet anchor
Also I am disappoint. The patch notes didn't note that Essence of Bloodfang doesn't work with it either 🤣
iron orchid
our hope
limber lion
Maybe link to the original bluepost, not the wowhead one
Good shout.
gusty mirage
Also I am disappoint. The patch notes didn't note that Essence of Bloodfang does...
good maybe they'll delete that pos leggo
marble hemlock
slow marsh
db works on mut tho
True but mutiliated flesh isn't the strength of DB, it's the 20% envenom dam or whatever it is
gusty mirage
True but mutiliated flesh isn't the strength of DB, it's the 20% envenom dam or ...
its a bit of both
but ye
kind talon
No the mutilated flesh is really good
limber lion
@marble hemlock But yeah as you can read from the bluepost, it says that the 4p interaction is a bug and intentionally left in.
Their words, not mine.
fleet anchor
In4b Shadowdust is better just for the extra Shiv 🤣
limber lion
slow marsh
In4b Shadowdust is better just for the extra Shiv 🤣
kekw
marble hemlock
Just cause they say it was
marble hemlock
Doesnt mean it was :p
vestal wren
is the original link
slow marsh
yeah i already looked at all the other leggo options and dusk is the play
unless they change the 4p
vestal wren
ah nvm you fixed already
limber lion
Fair
marble hemlock
I'm just too cynical
limber lion
I mean
marble hemlock
To believe these statements when the more likely explanation is that a broken clock is right twice a day.
limber lion
We knew about it before the set was even released
Or before it was even testable
It's not something we found out later on
marble hemlock
Don't think we "knew", its more that we "expected" them to just slap the Exsang coding onto the 4pc
slow marsh
They knew that it was a bug right out the gates
thin trout
it's sumthing
marble hemlock
Cause we knew what coding they slapped on, yes.
fleet anchor
I feel like the whole 4pc+Dusk hype is like.. really from the viewpoint of Legion/BfA when Bleeds did lots of damage and Vendetta was a good cooldown. And neither of those things are really true any more. 😛
limber lion
Read up on Sink
slow marsh
I feel like the whole 4pc+Dusk hype is like.. really from the viewpoint of Legio...
i mean
i dont want to ask but
have you played ptr
fleet anchor
Yes?
limber lion
I mean the 4p makes Vendetta a good cooldown
slow marsh
So you know that garrote -> rup -> melee -> CT is our highest damage in order right
limber lion
Bleeds are our top damage
fleet anchor
I think your evaluation of this stuff is really not quite numerically correct
slow marsh
Ok elaborate for me then
what am i missing
I am an advocate for learning so give it to me
fleet anchor
At the end of the day the value of DoTs is the DPET gap between non-DoTs and DoTs. Yes it is certainly possible to set up builds where if you drop all the Envenoms and Mutilates you will do lots of bleed damage. That doesn't specifically imply by default you are doing more damage. The DPET gap between Envenom/Mutilate right now and Rupture/Garrote is much smaller than in BfA.
Part of that was because we had 59869867% Haste from Corruption and Azerite
As well as abusing snapshotting mechanics of Exsang with GCB
slow marsh
Well yeah and no suffocation yeah I get that
But that's not my point really
With current 4p you literally don't have time to envenom
LIke you only envenom to keep snd from falling
fleet anchor
Like every time you cast in 4pc window basically all you are gaining is (Rupture DPE - Envenom DPE - Envenom Buff Uptime Value)
It's not really a damage amp, it's a smaller portion of damage based on DPET advantage
But right now Envenom hits pretty hard
So that gain is smaller than it would have been in previous xpacs
slow marsh
Yes I agree
slow marsh
That doesn't change the fact that you can only envenom maybe 3 times max in vendetta
subtle tundra
i say obedience + duskwalker ===== cool
slow marsh
Because we're running CT in ST so you have 3 dots to keep up during the 20s window
subtle tundra
hear me out, what if you DONT run CT
slow marsh
Then you do less damage
iron orchid
We are gonna have to wait and see how they implement the double leggo thing anyway
slow marsh
and play sub
iron orchid
before drawing any conclusion regarding a best build
subtle tundra
Then you do less damage
clearly you have simmed already and know the numbers, right?
slow marsh
ye
kind talon
Surprised pikachu face
fleet anchor
I don't think CT would have made the cut with the old 2pc design. With the new one, it might.
limber lion
Definitely could
limber lion
believing feelcrafting
slow marsh
do i have to be right
fleet anchor
Because CT has been significantly behind for a while
deft vault
the fuck is dpet
limber lion
CT does decent damage, but every CT you press means less Envenom damage and less poison damage.
fleet anchor
Damage per execute time
limber lion
It's not comparable looking at just CT and Envenom numbers when comparing the two
because Envenom does much more than just the Envenom-portion
But I agree that CT is definitely a possibility
fleet anchor
2pc could push CT high enough but with the old 25% crit I'm not sure it was actually overtaking Envenom in value. It'd be close
With the new crit rate it could definitely be in the picture though
limber lion
Can't wait to answer questions about when to CT and when not to CT.
"Only during Vend and Shiv windows, otherwise you press Envenom. Yes, even if the buff is about to fall off"
limber lion
Shiv lasts for 9s, how long does CT last again?
fleet anchor
"We lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume." thinking 😛
It still has to be worth casting to be cast with the 4pc
subtle tundra
Shiv lasts for 9s, how long does CT last again?
A THOUSAND YEARS
limber lion
:O
limber lion
I'm still just red name what do I know
Why are you like this?
obtuse robin
i beleive in you ice
fleet anchor
I mean I'm certainly not against ST CT.. I was originally the one who starting pushing it in late-BfA much to screams of many 🤣
slow marsh
Shiv lasts for 9s, how long does CT last again?
4-5s in vend
limber lion
Yeh
slow marsh
So two full CTs in shiv pretty much
limber lion
I can see us pressing CT - Shiv everytime outside of Vend windows
For full CT/Shiv value
fleet anchor
Anyway I'll get sims for you by the end of the weekend 😛
slow marsh
Ye that's what I been doing
limber lion
I'm actually hyped for the set
limber lion
15 seconds at 5 cp
I don't think so?
Isn't it 4 at 1 and +2 every cp?
so 12s at 5?
kind talon
Oh
iron orchid
12
limber lion
or am I washed
kind talon
Yeah
deft vault
4-6-8-10-12
kind talon
Too much mage tower