Unless they make it apply empowered garrotes
#assassination
gusty mirage
limber lion
Sepsis good.
wet dagger
maybe not trinket's/external stuff
gusty mirage
wet dagger
but almost certainly all built-in bleeds
limber lion
Ye
gusty mirage
As long as it keeps me away from mfd, sign me up
arctic hare
But that’d be op lol
oak sky
Yeah give us aoe exsang thanks blizz
limber lion
Yes it would
wet dagger
^^^^^
oak sky
Thats my peepodream
wet dagger
make CT baseline and replace it with like a shrapnel bomb
that's like an aoe exsang
if the vendetta exsang works with bone spike bleed could be a bit of a boost for necro ST as well, although with venth the extra energy regen from the bleed ticks would also let you get a few more flag hits possibly
limber lion
if the vendetta exsang works with bone spike bleed could be a bit of a boost for...
It does not
That is literally gamebreaking
obtuse robin
wet dagger
and the duke's 550 mastery would be sick during the vendetta exsang
oak sky
Deathspike st 
limber lion
And it caused servers to crash in 9.0 ptr
wet dagger
well I was under the impression the exsang would end when vendetta ended
limber lion
I highly doubt it works
Probably share the same code
But nevertheless Necro is bad and you should not play it
gray fjord
Besides, even if it did work you're stuck with deathspike as your 2nd leggo which is just gonna be bad
^
wet dagger
yeah feelsbad
gray fjord
Really a shame they pigeonholed the covenant thing for 9.2 despite making a patch where you can swap freely. =/
wet dagger
there were patch notes the other day that mentioned fixing bugged rogue leggos and I got so excited and it wasn't listed lol
grand ridge
That legendary was made to prevent people from bitching
They know it's gonna be imbalanced
fleet anchor
Probably share the same code
Maybe, I don't even know though. It would be uber jank if it did for a few reasons so I'm hoping they do it differently.
grand ridge
It has to be unless they overhaul many of the legendaries
fleet anchor
But I'm 50/50 on if that is plausible or not
wet dagger
I was under the impression that the vendetta thing was an ongoing debuff, i.e. applying to new bleeds as you put them on as well, but when vendetta drops it would go back to normal
kind talon
Yeah give us aoe exsang thanks blizz
Well you could vendetta one target with the tier set and exsang a 2nd target and that’s like 2 exsangs
fleet anchor
Like if they basically just do it as a 100% haste buff on the target when Vendetta is up
I think that would be best
But they won't
😄
limber lion
Yup
wet dagger
Well you could vendetta one target with the tier set and exsang a 2nd target and...
and trade alacrity lol
grand ridge
I feel like that's boring though
limber lion
It mentioned "bleeds expiring" 100% faster
Instead of "bleeds tick rate increased by 100%"
fleet anchor
Yeah
wet dagger
yeah I noticed that
only thing I thought it would affect would be bone spike probably, since it doesn't expire
limber lion
Oh well
fleet anchor
Which doesn't help stuff like Doomblade at all since it's residual and accumulates, fwiw. But 2pc does potentially
limber lion
TO NS Exsang build coming
fleet anchor
But this is 100% something that we need to test on PTR
to have any idea of
I'm scared, ngl
limber lion
Which doesn't help stuff like Doomblade at all since it's residual and accumulat...
Add the poison portion to the 2p and it's a lot better
wet dagger
the bleed crit chance on shiv is also just kind of weird
arctic hare
Yeah
wet dagger
it doesn't really do anything but 25% more damage, it's not like poison crit which could give energy with ds or proc rate for more venomous wounds energy and shit
grave trail
It mentioned "bleeds expiring" 100% faster
This wording implies rupture and Garrote last half duration default right? Instead of ticking faster
limber lion
Correct
grave trail
Of default*
limber lion
So the same way as Exsanguinate
drifting cosmos
Continue to be a raid only spec feelsbad
bleak sky
Continue to be a raid only spec feelsbad
m+ as sin is more than fine
rigid vortex
Only problem is getting into pug
visual prairie
maybe it's not even like exsanguinate. maybe it just cuts your bleeds in half but they don't tick any faster or harder
the only punishing set bonus
muted ivy
that's probably what happens when you use exsang during vendetta
bleak sky
Only problem is getting into pug
the more io you get the easier it gets it seems
at least that's what happened with me
idk how it is in the 2800s
rigid vortex
im at 2.6k i wait atleat 30 mins to get into keys
visual prairie
is my napkin math wrong? My bleeds currently crit at just over 40%. So T2 is 140 -> 165 or about 18% gain. but shiv is only up about 35% of the time and bleeds are only about 15% of my damage.. so t2 gain in single target is less than 1% (18% * .35 * .15)
obtuse robin
visual prairie
i guess when winds of winter goes away bleeds will be more like 20% of my damage
still not very good
kind talon
is my napkin math wrong? My bleeds currently crit at just over 40%. So T2 is 1...
the 2pc bonus only lasts 9 seconds of shiv
so its 3/4 the uptime
hollow river
Things aren’t looking good guys
visual prairie
i did 9 / 25 for the uptime
visual prairie
i don't know, their discord seems to be optimistic about their set bonus
feral though, as bad as ours
hollow river
Well yeah as it stands rn boomie will be like 15% stronger than most
hollow river
Unless nerfed heavily
hollow river
Yeah
The spec though
Their double leggo is the best combo in the game basically
And they have ravenous frenzy
kind talon
fucking boomies
bro with their tier set and double leggo
they get
5 starsurges instead of 3 at the end of their ramp
and those starsurges are doing 20% more damage
hollow river
Kinda fucking wild lol ngl
kind talon
ur pretty wild lol ngl
hollow river
#nerfboomkinintotheGROUND
kind talon
yes
hollow river
+1
cerulean nest
subtlety time?
hollow river
Outlaw time
hollow river
Nah looks kinda bad
cobalt pelican
..ok
wraith mantle
Nah looks kinda bad
Look at frost dk then look at sin
Frost got Fucking shit. Up to the point where I have been pre benched from my dk
AND WERE JUST A AOTC GUILD!
wraith mantle
Yeah I know
Gonna kick there asses on my rogue though till they want me on dk again
crystal vault
why dont we use ambush on our opener? just for the potential 1cp loss if mutilate crits?
hollow river
why dont we use ambush on our opener? just for the potential 1cp loss if mutilat...
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
solemn plaza
lol you might want to shop for a new guild if they are benching your dk before any final tuning happens. shouldn't even be benched in a heroic guild :/
strange python
Their double leggo is the best combo in the game basically
P sure this title belongs to enhance shamans
hollow river
no lol
strange python
I mean....yes. Their two legendaries are the biggest damage amplifications ATM (except a mage one that doesn't really apply to reality) and they scale with each other
Boomie is just a better all around spec
hollow river
i'd like to see the raw numbers to back that
because boomies and mages are better im pretty sure
slow marsh
Look at frost dk then look at sin
spoken like a true player who doesn't play sin xD
like holy shit the amount of people talking about sin tier set being good in raid
who don't play sin
is mind boggling
cobalt pelican
i mean, it very likely is good in raid
slow marsh
whether or not sin is good in raid at the moment has nothing to do with tier set
cobalt pelican
traditionally the more damage you can do in 20 seconds the better, even if not overall numerically superior
bleak sky
!bos
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz
thorny pond
We still haven’t even had a tuning pass yet.
bleak sky
I never tested it but
cobalt pelican
we haven't even had a (log into ptr at all) yet
bleak sky
do any of you know if Domina Venomblade's purple circle skill is cancelled when you cloak?
as in you can stand in group still dpsing
I know it doesn't damage you and doesn't stun you
but does it still stun/damage your group?
cobalt pelican
believe it does yeah
bleak sky
rip that 0.5 sec of extra damage
spice spire
The circle does not - the stun does
I’ve never been mad lad enough to cloak in range tho
spice spire
Because when I cloak it always goes off, but never stuns
slow marsh
Yeah you still have have to step out
glad siren
I'm gonna miss winds of winter
glad siren
Come back to me 98k crits and ridiculous shields
versed mica
Gonna go back to rogue not being able to solo content anymore
bleak sky
just play sub/law for world content
thorny pond
Sin never really was open world spec
versed mica
I do play law for world content lol
fleet whale
4 set might be good, but 2 set is pretty weak sauce as it stands right now
nimble tartan
lolll
balmy condor
4 set might be good, but 2 set is pretty weak sauce as it stands right now
4 set looks pretty bad too tbh
It’s basically just exsang on a 2 min cd
The poison dot part doesn’t even make sense because we’re reapplying the poison dot constantly
Not that It matters since poison dot is like 3.5% of our damage
The 4pc could just say “poison dot damage is doubled”
And it would still be mediocre
crystal vault
just reroll, we are doomed
balmy condor
Nah, have faith
They add poisons to 2 piece and then idk
Completely redesign the 4pc
And then we’re sick
obtuse robin
where there any leggos that were fundamentally changed during ptr
crystal vault
Completely redesign the 4pc
they wont
balmy condor
It’s okay, brewmaster has it worse
The initial recommendation for brewmaster is to simply not use the 4pc
rich vine
But faster bleed tics give us more energy i think
balmy condor
But faster bleed tics give us more energy i think
Yeah and?
Are the extra 4 mutilates worth of energy supposed to be like a 25% dps gain?
uneven hamlet
But faster bleed tics give us more energy i think
Some dev though exactly this and look where we are now
balmy condor
It still remains that exsanguinate is the worst talent on the tree, and baking it into vendetta doesn’t make it better
grand ridge
Should tier set bonuses be a 25% dps gain
I mean I'll say this bonus isn't the most amazing set we've seen but it's not like it's terrible
balmy condor
They should be many things, but this ain’t it
rich vine
Some dev though exactly this and look where we are now
Two channels below 
balmy condor
This tier set doesn’t even come close to making up half the loss of domination shards
misty holly
Did you sign up for the community council Whispyr? We need you!
nimble tartan
hehe
balmy condor
Did you sign up for the community council Whispyr? We need you!
Yes
cerulean nest
patiently waiting for the pin update that just says "cap"
oak sky
🧢
balmy condor
@echo geyser wrong discord, DH discord is that way 👉 🚪
echo geyser
balmy condor
<:disapawnted:821046992431087616>
don't you have a 31 plaguefall to time or something
balmy condor
understandable
slow marsh
Hey just here to remind everyone that sin tier set is garbage and you should be upset. thank you
muted ivy
it's only garbage for current tuning, some tweaks could easily make it fine
slow marsh
that's assuming they tweak it
and they wont tweak it unless people are upset
so
get madge
look at how fast they were about changing warlock hat
oak sky
thats a little different
obtuse robin
not even a little alot
slow marsh
not if we find some way to link our sin tier set to being questionably cancel-able
no but really
who created the white pointy hat with robes mog
and thought that it would be fine
dark token
What happened with warlock?
slow marsh
🧢
muted ivy
i mean i'm all for telling devs that as it stands the set is poopoo but it doesn't take that much to make it fairly good
slow marsh
i agree the framework is fine. boring for sure but fine
oak sky
if blizz actually ends up listening like they keep saying they will
it shouldnt take that much to at least make it have good numbers
slow marsh
yeah if they add poison + crit chance to 2p and maybe brush up our bleeds overall then it'd be fine
still kind of weird to me to make shiv add crit % to bleeds but i'm assuming they're unwilling to rework and will only mess with numbers
olive lion
man its so cringe that for the bis leggo i have to try and join a council LFR
why is that a thing
balmy condor
you can get a legendary token from korthia/maw
and then turn it in, and get dashing that way
olive lion
oh my goddddddddddddddd
limber swallow
you can get those from grateful offerings in your covenant too
35 grateful offerings.
balmy condor
ye
olive lion
you can get a legendary token from korthia/maw
can i get from main and send to an alt?
balmy condor
no, it's BoP
restive valve
does anyone have a good platerui that clearly shows bleeds and poisons. Mine has very narrow boxes and makes it hard to see on sin.
gusty mirage
does anyone have a good platerui that clearly shows bleeds and poisons. Mine has...
https://wago.io/gf0Dg_Ujr Cev's is really good
restive valve
that must be what mine was based on cause I have the 2:1 icons and sometimes struggle to see them
restive valve
ill copy this in and see if changing icon size is easy. the one I have on sub is a mess now with a ton of changes I have made
restive valve
okay ill fiddle with both and maybe ill get something more usable then what I have
gusty mirage
best of luck 
slow marsh
Good night brothers. Dream of a better 2p bonus tonight
brazen zodiac
Good night brothers. Dream of a better 2p bonus tonight
i dreamt
half of the dream was horrid nightmares, the other half was a small noob coming to me telling me that sin will be top tier sets just wait
frosty bridge
fallen arch
2p bonus is really bad?
Oh pins
It does synergize tho? Shiv in that vendetta/exsang window will be pretty stronk burst no?
dawn ivy
look at your damage profile
we dont do that much damage with bleeds this expac
or poisons really
we would have L O V E D this set if it was in 8.3
but theyve moved us more towards envenom and auto attack damage with our poisons then bleeds filling in the gaps
slow marsh
Yeah the 4p has potential for sure if they were to change 2p a bit
cobalt pelican
bleeds are like 20% of your damage in normal gear without frost
and that's before counting the 4p
slow marsh
A lot less
slow marsh
Bleeds themselves are 15% poison dot makes it like 18
cobalt pelican
no they aren't..
slow marsh
Garrote and rup are 7 a piece
cobalt pelican
that's a normal non-subt breakdown
in real gear
like using numbers from 50% crit warped as fuck stats with frost damage included in your breakdown is just dumb shit
the set isn't good but it's not even close to bottom tier of the existing sets
spec might blow ass but that's because of how reliant it is on frost rn not because the set isn't decent comparatively to other sets
(and i think the spec will be quite good)
slow marsh
Nope it's all haste prio
cobalt pelican
?
something like this? or very different
it's very weird to be doom saying and throwing around numbers based on basically nothing, sets should be simmable relatively quickly after ptr goes up
dawn ivy
im parroting what all other green names have mentioned
slow marsh
It's not doom saying when we have a very good idea of the numbers already
cobalt pelican
no you don't
slow marsh
Except we do
cobalt pelican
you have wrong napkin math from whispyr based on current tiers default profile with major missing parts
even he himself wouldn't say it's absolute
dawn ivy
sure
slow marsh
Nobody is saying anything is absolute
dawn ivy
but its certainly reasonable to look at the set and recognize that its not building directly into our strongest damage
cobalt pelican
sure, that's okay
and asking for it to potentially be opened to nature damage might be good depending on what it looks like on ptr
but when you pop your head up and look around at other classes tier sets they aren't aiming for them to be massive swing sets
sins combinced gives a very clear niche in 2min burst
cobalt pelican
sure
sharp zodiac
slow marsh
cobalt pelican
huh
sin has the overwhelming majority of recent raid tiers as the standalone best spec
for rogue, that is
pretty much only 9.0.0 was bad in any recent memory
peak bobcat
Okay but this was the first tier Sin was comparative to top specs in the game
In awhile
wraith mantle
spoken like a true player who doesn't play sin xD
Vincezo-moonguard and im not saying the sin tier set is good im just saying that others have worst.
winged ravine
Poor feral, last i heard their tier bonus was doing less damage than guardian's lol
peak bobcat
WTB dev that plays rogue
thorny pond
Poor feral, last i heard their tier bonus was doing less damage than guardian's ...
The same number of people will play feral regardless
Nothing more or less
winged ravine
this is true
peak bobcat
Sin tier set is not abysmal but it is not good in comparison to what some classes are getting. In combination with pretty lackluster legendary combinations and losing a lot of borrowed power there is literally a chance we go up 20 ilevel and do the same or less damage than this tier
slow marsh
The same number of people will play feral regardless
Nothing more or less
All 8 of them
thorny pond
Feral has the most loyal player base
They will play it because they enjoy it and not fotm
Could’ve had 1k more balance parses if they all went to fotm
slow marsh
People just forget that sin needed 3-4 buffs in 9.0.5 just to make it to middle of the pack because of how the spec is designed. We rely 100% on BP and how good the tier set is for us is a big deal
winged ravine
I mained feral from Ulduar until 9.0 so there's some truth to that, but i think some people will get sick of blizzard being blizzard to that spec lol
peak bobcat
Sin got buffed like 47% aura from 9.0 to 9.0.5 
slow marsh
So people just look at 4p and assume oh sin ST is going to be amazing again cuz they are super good right now. But they don't realize all our damage is winds + envenom.
winged ravine
wasn't sin like god awful abysmal in 9.0?
winged ravine
I'm a bit behind on rogue news, i just started trying to take it seriously like a month ago after getting bored with warrior
slow marsh
With the new tier set as of now ( of course tuning and changes can change it) it looks like we will actually be hitting envenom less and possibly even have to spec CT for ST fights so while we gain bleed damage we lose a lot of our actual highest damage ability
winged ravine
yeah i thought so, i remember seeing logs and sin just being on bottom by....a lot
slow marsh
9.0 sin was extremely bad
9.0.5 we got huge buffs and it was just ok
All in all it'll be fine once ptr opens up and we can hopefully get
some changes
peak bobcat
Current tuning with domination pieces is pretty solid for dps and some classes that do less ST have a large niche somewhere else
So if rogue isn’t top tier ST and immunities aren’t relevant in a certain tier rogue is not preferred
cobalt pelican
Okay but this was the first tier Sin was comparative to top specs in the game
? what kind of crack smoking take is this
8.3 it was in the top 5 specs
8.2 it was one of the best raiding specs and in the top 3 boss dam on every single fight
8.1 it was very strong
8.0 it was a bit shaky
but still very strong
slow marsh
I'm sure they are well aware that losing shards, gaining double leggos and tier and whatever is in codex happening all at once will require a lot of tuning everywhere
winged ravine
8.3 mega haste exsang build was so fun, i miss that 
worn panther
Healers complained my health drained like a vacuum with the trillions dots
On the Maut Fight
It was fun
gusty mirage
9.0.5 we got huge buffs and it was just ok
dawn ivy
supposedly codex gives us nothing
viscid schooner
!sim
slow marsh
<:peepostudy:585733927562641408>
indigo ginkgo
!sin
vestal wren
!sims
prisma monolithBOT
Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
strange python
Anyone know how to sim Weapon Oil v. Sharpening Stone? I can't figure it out using Raidbots.
Simming enchants, gems, etc all seems intuitive. Not sure where Shadowcore Oil v. Sharpening Stone is though.
indigo ginkgo
its on end of page
simulations options
you may have to click to open the options
gusty mirage
Anyone know how to sim Weapon Oil v. Sharpening Stone? I can't figure it out us...
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
gusty mirage
There ya go
slow marsh
Oxi such a good guy when it comes to oil
gusty mirage
Oxi such a good guy when it comes to oil
ember mural
Oxi such a good guy when it comes to oil
slow marsh
Tonight is my last night with my current guild then make the move that's been a long time coming
gusty mirage
Congrats dood, finally free
slow marsh
Ik and I can finally have more rogue friends
golden basalt
I want some rogue friends too 
dawn ivy
i got a new rogue friend but hes maybe a little too good and scares me
first time im not guarenteed the best rogue on the team. refreshing, terrifying
strange python
why is that terrifying? You need to be the best one?
gusty mirage
first time im not guarenteed the best rogue on the team. refreshing, terrifying
I have a feeling you’ll be just fine 
dawn ivy
hes the rogue who taught me how to play outlaw and i see him in the mdi pretty consistently
and now hes just....my equal
glad siren
I want rogue friends... all mine went boomie
charred wraith
those arent true rogues then, no honest rogue would go boomie, disgusting class (with questionable playerbase)
slow marsh
I mean to be fair a lot of rogues respecced boomie during CN and just stuck with it into sod
strange python
I love sin rogue, playing mm alt, prot pally and started a shadow priest this week.
glass tulip
the only acceptable swap to me is becoming a green rogue
dawn ivy
had to swap to green rogue in CN, really disliked it in aoe
or maybe i just disliked it because i was on SLG
but it left a very bad taste in my mouth
slow marsh
I will otp rogue forever
I messed around with DH and DK for awhile and they just don't compare for me
fallen arch
Whats a green rogue
slow marsh
Monkey
fallen arch
Ok that’s bs
golden basalt
same, arms and sin have been my go to specs for ages now
slow marsh
If guild req'd me to offspec I'd be fine with it I guess as long as it's justified
golden basalt
my brain cant handle much more complexity than that
dawn ivy
you can do this
slow marsh
Mobile
golden basalt
one more try
slow marsh
Hard
dawn ivy
haha
golden basalt
i believe
slow marsh
Na I give up
dawn ivy
slow marsh
Not worth anymore
golden basalt
slow marsh
Had to explain why 2p is bad too much now my brain is broke
spice spire
Had to explain why 2p is bad too much now my brain is broke
Coming from a Kyrian and NF lover 🤨
Sus
slow marsh
Just cuz I explore doesn't mean I love them
But
Yes I do have plenty of 
moments and that's ok
forest whale
Hey, guys. I am trying to find a good UI to play Assassination Rogue. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I tried the Wago.io but the ones I have seen are pretty mediocre.
dawn ivy
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
dawn ivy
those two are probably going to be your best bet at starting
forest whale
Thank you!
slow marsh
I personally use the SL Adriox or something elvui setup and customized it to my liking and then tweaked the afenar WA package and tweaked cevs player prof
So yeah no matter what you grab you'll probably end up tweaking it or at least you should, so just feel out a bunch of presets and see what vibes with you
warped gull
Luxthos has a good set of rogue addons. That set actually has triggers and sets for each spec and class. When you change specs the WA changes and so on. Its what i use and its great.
gusty mirage
I personally use the SL Adriox or something elvui setup and customized it to my ...
imagine not using atrocityui
slow marsh
I used to use luxthos but there are a few memory leaks or something that we're eating all of my add-on memory so I just changed affinars to look like luxthos cuz I do prefer his aesthetic
slow marsh
imagine not using atrocityui
I didn't get access to it until I had already figured out my UI so I feel like what's the point
dawn ivy
atrocity ui seems too condensed
oops bad word
not enough flashing lights to tell me im dumb
glass tulip
imagine not using atrocityui
Any truers?
gusty mirage
not enough flashing lights to tell me im dumb
that's why you get custom WAs that yell at you when you're being stupid like I do
dawn ivy
im actually doing that for my warrior already and been thinkning about what i could do for rogue
but i think most of my mistakes have been purely global decisions
gusty mirage
I swear I need a WA that reminds me when I'm not in melee range
because I'm actually an idiot sometimes
lol
dawn ivy
i could use that on painsmith
i play too safe with balls some nights
and never even get more than a global off on each ball because i back up too fast lmao
gusty mirage
ye the balls are kinda sketch tbh
glass tulip
/range 3 for a boss and make it a check mark or an X for if its in range 🤣
gusty mirage
too much ptsd from early prog
where I thought I had enough space between me and the ball
and I went squish
dawn ivy
i used the side strafe tech
until i ran off the ledge
then i just played like a pussy and spammed aoe
dawn ivy
i jumped off the ledge once, and then the second time i "reacted" and shadow stepped
guess what i stepped to :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
never used that strat again lmfao
viscid spear
Better than the Warriors in my guild group testing if they could Leap over the balls 
balmy condor
They can’t
gusty mirage
afaik the only melee that can get around the balls are DHs if they glide around from off the plat
balmy condor
Yeh, hunters can disengage, boomkins can jump, but aside from that it’s rip
native belfry
Just kill it
balmy condor
Yeah that’s easiest
wraith mantle
the only acceptable swap to me is becoming a green rogue
green rogue?
glass tulip
monk
timid cloud
Warriors can only leap over spikes in that fight.
nimble tartan
I use evasion and walk through the balls but the trick is you have to spin your mouse and character so fast that the game registers the front working part of evasion as all sides at the same time so the ball wont kill u
timid cloud
At that point you could just shadowstep & you’d be in front & behind it, wouldn’t you?
Lol
Sounds insane though.
azure basalt
the warriors in my guild had a theory if you did it at peak height it worked because there was times our warrior tank wouldn't get the bop for one of the bad ball overlaps with tank mechanic and he sometimes wouldn't get stunned
hollow river
lol
timid cloud
Is that a quick 🧱 ?
gusty mirage
if you run of out nw you lose the weapons
wait you actually didn't know that?
subtle tundra
Is that a quick 🧱 ?
it was timed, only 26
timid cloud
shadow tulip
wait you actually didn't know that?
And here I am, pleb only doing 20s and I knew it KEKW
wintry terrace
Any tips for M sylvanas that's rogue specific? We started progress about 2 weeks ago and we are working our way through p2. I'm just looking for something that maybe one of you figured out that made the fight easier for rogue, or something to consider dps wise etc...
I am playing sin, using dashing scoundrel
muted ivy
Are you having trouble with anything in particular?
limber lion
Any tips for M sylvanas that's rogue specific? We started progress about 2 weeks...
There isn't much
It's very straightforward, no cheesing to be done
You can use cloak during intermission before the arrows chain to you to completely negate the damage and not pulse aoe
wintry terrace
damn lol, i was hoping for something haha. It's so boring already and we haven't even made it to p3 yet. I know once the wipes are 9mins its gonna be rough lol
limber lion
Which means instead of grouping up you can move close to one pack of arrows then cloak and immediately shadowstep to a different pack when the chains happen
But other than that there aint much
limber lion
You slam everything pretty much on cooldown, p2 on burns, p3 sync with lust
wintry terrace
I find the timing of the 2nd set of cds in p1 a bit weird. It's when she is raining arrows down, right after the adds die from the first double arrow
and i cant get a full vendetta off before she teleports
is that normal or should i wait till after that veil
limber lion
That's fine
Just holf Flag slightly and use it when the adds come closer so you get maximum stacks from em
Just use Vendetta the second it comes off cd
muted ivy
Rogue just go brrrrrrr on boss dam pretty much
wintry terrace
kk lol
limber lion
You can also try to Vendrtta slightly bit earlier in the opener
To get slightly bit more out of the second one
wintry terrace
sounds good to me, ill just keep plugging away
ill try out a quicker vendetta in the opening next raid night, see how it goes
wintry terrace
the theme of this raid tier
limber lion
Yup
muted ivy
SoD = Stopping our DPS
muted ivy
Last tier had some, but not NEARLY this bad imo
slow marsh
they specifically said in the previews so far going into sepulcher or whatever the next raid is that they dislike the concept of stopping dps in order to cheese mechanics so here's hoping
maybe they finally learn their lesson and stop doing full spell queue bosses idk
limber lion
Yeh
I play a lot less nowadays though, or well, barely at all
I've quit hardcore raiding altogether
idle shard
But u still cleared in mythic?
idle shard
Nice
I kinda wanna try sin again but I only have blood set maxed out
Lol
Have Frost set on rank 3
glass tulip
If you like seeing big damage I feel like it isnt even worth swapping before rank 5
I waited to hit blood rank 5 before I tried sub again
idle shard
I think rank 4 is ok
But still dont have it lul
I May go with blood set and craft dashing once and for all
slow marsh
I probs wouldn't craft dashing until after you get rank 5 frost
at this point
but then again free mats so who cares
limber lion
Yeah just stick to whatever rank 5 you have currently
Swap to frost once you're r5 and have dashing
But don't use dashing with the blood set.
full tendon
I'm gonna get it week before 9.2 wot wot
glad siren
I believe in you
idle shard
But don't use dashing with the blood set.
well I mean, I guess I could craft a 235 doomblade, 262 are expensive af, and Im poor lol
dont have enough gold to buy 2 262 cloaks KEK
quaint void
how much crit do you need for frost set?
balmy condor
you don't need any amount, but a decently optimized character will have between 40-45%
strange python
Mastery stack 9.2?
obtuse robin
steep dome
hello, i was wondering if anyone could let me know how exsanguinate changes the game play for sin, i want to get used to the game play for exsanguinate before next patch when we get those new tier sets 🙂
subtle tundra
🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮 🤮
balmy condor
hello, i was wondering if anyone could let me know how exsanguinate changes the ...
exsang is a dead talent, don't bother
steep dome
tyvm
slow marsh
Atm our gameplay wouldn't change at all and that just might be the worst part about the tier set
steep dome
do i work on getting max rank doomblades before patch when theres no more frost set?
balmy condor
we don't know
best thing to do atm is make sure venthyr is maxed
aside from that, not much atm
slow marsh
Make sure you have duskwalker patch learned so you are able to craft it
steep dome
tyvm
slow marsh
The amount of people still coming in and complaining about ugh I have to lfr x old boss from old raid
oak sky
make sure you have all leggos learned so you can craft the one that ends up being best
clever kindle
oak sky
balmy condor
make sure you have all leggos learned so you can craft the one that ends up bein...
true
slow marsh
<:weirdge:816571177651929118>
balmy condor
duskwalker copers 
clever kindle
The 4 set probably also affects doomblade right?
slow marsh
I doubt it
balmy condor
The 4 set probably also affects doomblade right?
highly doubt it
like closer to 0% that it does
clever kindle
Would be nice if it did
oak sky
@balmy condor i already have my doomblade and dashing crafted ready to scrap for ones on a real slot
slow marsh
Yeah also
There's 5 tier slots
So there'll be optimization in that too I'm sure
Esp considering they have preset stats
balmy condor
the iceblade special
steep dome
whether or not doomblade is affected by mastery should give some indication if the tier set would work with it, no?
balmy condor
whether or not doomblade is affected by mastery should give some indication if t...
no, that's not how that works
oak sky
u probably just dont take tier in your best slot or dont take the one with the worst stats
or lowest ilvl et
c
steep dome
oh apologies for my ignorance
subtle tundra
who needed inventory space
i do, more places for finger, hello?
balmy condor
i do, more places for finger, hello?
screw inventory space, you just need another hand
subtle tundra
+2 fingers next patch with tazavesh m+ 😉
balmy condor
toe ring?
slow marsh
Also we might get a dark horse 4th leggo that comes out of nowhere and rises to the top
Who knows what might happen
slow marsh
Wow horde racials broken
slow marsh
Oh yeah true nvm then
balmy condor
can equip extra ringg
henlo guys I come ask what best third ring for sin rogue is haste breakpoint vers/mastery ring poggers op?
balmy condor
I can wait
idle shard
btw is theotar bis for sin in some cases? Or pretty much every case lol
balmy condor
easy solution is to make a pin telling people to shut the fuck up about races
slow marsh
I can't wait for......uhhh something
idle shard
I havent simmed yet
balmy condor
and then control c 
balmy condor
btw is theotar bis for sin in some cases? Or pretty much every case lol
every, unless you roll agi tea
in which case you play kyrian
idle shard
kyrian sin? I dont even play kyrian subt
slow marsh
Well then unsub
idle shard
slow marsh
Simple
balmy condor
agi is the real bad one
slow marsh
My roll is on agi rn and I roll in 4 mins
idle shard
best one is haste I guess lol
slow marsh
For KT tho so really who cares
balmy condor
crit is actually like 150 dps higher than agi
oak sky
vers is better than i thought
slow marsh
Vers is still for sure reroll but not change spec worthy
oak sky
probably go haste
slow marsh
If you're blood then surely nadj is better even with thrill existing
balmy condor
but crit when u have frost set? what if Im a poor guy with blood set maxed out
then wrong channel
idle shard
well idk, I wanna play sin sometimes lol
slow marsh
I mean tbh tho if you have r5 blood you're better off playing sub
Like a lot better off
balmy condor
if you wanna play sin with a blood set then you're just doing it for the fun of playing sin
but if you're trying to play sin to any decent level
you'd get frost, or respec to sub
it's like a 10% loss to not go frost
slow marsh
I mean there are logs up for NF sin so
idle shard
well Im mythic raiding as subt yeah
slow marsh
Anything is possible
idle shard
yeah, gonna take me like 2 more weeks
slow marsh
Where's your UH
idle shard
my unholy is rank 1 cuz I decided to main my rogue again after blood was bis for sub
and wanted to play sub lol
slow marsh
Nice
elfin chasm
garrote and rupture pandemic time is 7?
balmy condor
!pd
prisma monolithBOT
Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs
red plaza
A full 5 point rupture is 7.2 I believe
balmy condor
sounds about right
elfin chasm
ty
balmy condor
would make a 4cp 6sec and a 6cp 8.4
slow marsh
let's go rolled crit
red plaza
cries in agi
exotic rose
Question about
Overall pretty underwhelming tier set considering bleeds only account for about 15% of our damage right now.
Is 15% including Winds of Winter or without it?
hollow escarp
exotic rose
I know. I'm asking if our bleeds are 15% of our total damage on a calculation that includes winds of winter.
Meaning, without winds, bleeds are say 25% of our damage (example).
normal mist
balmy condor
Question about
> Overall pretty underwhelming tier set considering bleeds only ...
without, also the 15% -> 25% math is really flawed :P
exotic rose
that is why I wrote (example)
balmy condor
yeh
just saying the most it could be would be 16.5%ish
not a big shift at all
but yes
the math was done without shards
subtle tundra
no way 25% crit for 15% of our damage during 35% of the fight is bad
i'd nerf it to 20% crit myself
exotic rose
lol
balmy condor
no way 25% crit for 15% of our damage during 35% of the fight is bad
meanwhile mages already talking about how their set is like 10% or something
exotic rose
Is our set even better than winds?
Curious if we will be catching up dps to what we had on 9.1 for a while.
oak sky
better gear better stats more leggo
misty holly
We'll just get another 5% flat damage buff to make up for the shitty set bonus.
What are we up to now, like +90%?
balmy condor
+51
fire mage is -6, boomy is -8, sub rogue is +21, arms is +9, fury is +21, I think ele and bm are +0
just for some comparisons
drifting cosmos
I think Legion tier 4set was like 8-10%?
Not rogue specific but in general
So currently 4 set definitely does not look impressive
kind talon
meanwhile mages already talking about how their set is like 10% or something
At least 10%
That fire mage one is fucked
Giga fucked
obtuse robin
lucid dreams op
mystic garden
just beat sylv heroic again about 10 min ago. and watched 3 rogues get dagger while i got stygian embers
KMS
bronze pike
patpat
restive valve
fire mage is -6, boomy is -8, sub rogue is +21, arms is +9, fury is +21, I think...
what are these figures in relation to? dps increase from new tier sets minus shards?
hollow river
what are these figures in relation to? dps increase from new tier sets minus sha...
the aura buffs/nerfs
since the start of SL
balmy condor
not since the start of shadowlands
that's just the values on the auras
to explain even further, each spec in the game has a hidden passive that increases all damage/healing/whatever, we call it the spec's "aura buff" most of the time
when you read patch notes that are like "assassination rogues damage increased by 5%"
and it's just a blanket statement X%
usually they just tune that aura knob
obviously it's a little problematic that all of our baseline abilities have to be buffed by (as of now) 51% in order to be balanced
and it's a little spooky with the math further down the line
for example a 5% buff to 51% isn't 56%
would actually be 58.55%
so it's just a bit whack
hollow river
hmm
i've been wondering, with all the talk about losing a borrowed power etc
how do they do things from expac to expac? do you always start back at the base of the class/spec?
hollow river
like how did sin get to be so low in comparison at the start of SL
hollow river
Feels weird man
sometimes you gotta move on to achieve your goals
slow marsh
Yeah Im excited about it for sure. Just have the same feeling I used to get when I had to tell my friends goodbye because of moving states
At least we killed KT though so it was a good night to go out on
limber lion
It's a combination of many things. Shadowlands was notorious for not introducing many rogue buffs/nerfs/reworks in ptr and on release. In fact we were the very last class to get our legendary powers and torghast powers, and it's one of the reasons why some of them feel very half assed.
Assa was really reliant on borrowed power back in 8.3
Assa became decent after 3 aura buffs. Three. Also as a result of the Venthyr rework
It's just rough when every other class gets buffs/reworks to compensate for the loss of borrowed power but we don't.
slow marsh
Yeah and it only became decent
limber lion
Yeah. It was really, really bad
slow marsh
Ik I remember getting actually bullied for playing it in 9.0 when I first came back to the game
I was like wtf did I do to earn this hate
limber lion
We requested buffs/reworks to Assa and finally got them in 9.0.5 with the introduction of CTTC and by them fixing several bugs in our kit
Those bugs severely affected our dps as well
slow marsh
Yeah the cttc was huge
All of it was huge
I'm glad that I was a day one-er and not a bandwagon-er. Not that there's anything wrong with that
But just something special about being a part of something through thick and thin
hollow river
kinda sucks that the players have to point things like that out
slow marsh
Getting the aura buffs+qol changes+ flag rework all at the same time
Yeah well players have to because devs aren't playing the game the way that players are
And that's if those players are lucky enough to have devs playing their class in the first place. Let alone spec
But that's more just a blanket issue across all development of anything in any sector. You either have to have a clear avenue for direct feedback with intentions to act on said feedback in a timely manner, or you have to have the capacity to be two steps ahead of what consumers want/need and have solutions ready to roll out for issues when they arise
The reason wow devs get shit on is because they preach that they want to listen to the community and change things based on feedback, but one there's no clear path to do that, and two they take 2 years to implement said thing
balmy condor
how do they do things from expac to expac? do you always start back at the base ...
Usually it’s a removal of whatever was in for the last patch/expansion, so like the soulbinds will have some lore reason or whatever, and will disable, the legendaries/tier will only work in the shadowlands under a certain level, and then when you level in the new zones, you’ll slowly replace all the raid stuff with blues towards the last 3 levels, and gg
You then won’t have any borrowed power until like dungeons
hollow river
Just seems like a mostly cut and dry thing that you could look through the games combat logs and find
balmy condor
And then whatever the new borrowed power is, is the new borrowed power
balmy condor
Nah
hollow river
Or was everything squished to “x”
balmy condor
It affected balance the same way any change does
And then they tuned around it
Most of the stuff they add is supposed to have a power budget of around x%
Legendaries might be 5%, conduits might be 2-3%, tier set maybe 5% for each part
bronze pike
accurate
balmy condor
If it’s 100 damage or 15000 doesn’t matter
hollow river
But some classes have outlier legendaries
balmy condor
Yeah
hollow river
That are closer to 10% or more
balmy condor
They colored out of the lines :)
balmy condor
Sinful is 23% btw
hollow river
Sinful hysteria?
balmy condor
Yep
balmy condor
Venth boomkin
hollow river
Kinda funny how that works
Boomie needs an aura buff and for that shit to be nerfed into oblivion
balmy condor
Yeah
hollow river
So do you think sin’s tier will need some help?
balmy condor
I mean some stuff like venth boomkin is clearly too much
But generally balance is good these days
hollow river
Yeah it is for sure
balmy condor
It’s honestly sad for the boomkins of the world
hollow river
Just worried more about next tier
balmy condor
Being forced into a 22% lego
balmy condor
So do you think sin’s tier will need some help?
I do, yea
Either sin needs some help, or the tier
hollow river
Imagine just switching the two set bonuses
balmy condor
But it’s not great as of now
hollow river
Switch the effects that are on shiv vendetta
To be on the other ability
Shiv exsanguinate
Yeah it seems a tad bit lackluster
slow oriole
To add to the boomie thing, the venthyr cov conduit is another 12 or 15% dmg gain (more than most specs legendaries)
hollow river
Good lord
limber lion
They seem like absurd numbers but you have to remember that they are not sitting at 51% aura buffs unlike we
Our conduits/legendaries etc. might be shit, but our base spec is buffed to the brim with aura buffs
soft shale
also funny things enhance had like a -59% aura too for a while
because blizz is shit at balancing
limber lion
Which might cause problems with legendary/soulbind etc. tuning
Slamming aura buffs on top of aura buffs is just a very lazy and bad way to buff specs from the dirt
balmy condor
Slamming aura buffs on top of aura buffs is just a very lazy and bad way to buff...
Wdym, increasing all damage is great, bleed tier is fine, rupture big damage
limber lion
limber lion
Yeh, can't give em too much power
slow oriole
Yeah, I mean they are not the only outlier (Fire mage's best legendary adds in the ballpark of 25%) and even Survival's best ST legendary adds about 14% dmg and neither of those classes currently do as much ST as any rogue spec with lower relative increases (either being roughly on par or below), but it does go to show, that the base classes are wildly unbalanced and we probably just lucked out this tier with overall balance
limber lion
Too bad it feels a bit shit to play compared to some other specs.
limber lion
Yeah, I mean they are not the only outlier (Fire mage's best legendary adds in t...
Yeah, we will be eating dust in 9.2 again, no worries
slow oriole
To bring it back to Sin, new tier set = big exsanguinate stonks?
slow oriole
Oh, for sure, I'm just joking, but it was the first thing I thought about when reading the 4p bonus
limber lion
I would love to play a different covenant, a different talent set, different rotation
But it's usually not happening in the middle of an expansion
slow oriole
Since it reads like it does the exact same thing
limber lion
We'll see some class reworks with new expansions and then we're stuck playing the same thing for 3 major patches
limber lion
Since it reads like it does the exact same thing
It does but better
It works on bleeds and poisons and it likely works for the entire duration of Vendetta instead of snapshotting the bleeds at the start
But we won't know until thr actually push it to ptr
Wording is always jank and something to be weary about
slow oriole
Alacrity always serves to me as a little reminder how they said, they would totally look into adding a version of toxic blade back in, so as not to have shiv be utility and damage and that awesome system they talked about with pick pocketing ingredients for crimson vial to justify their nerf of it
balmy condor
T 
ltips
limber lion
Alacrity always serves to me as a little reminder how they said, they would tota...
That's the problem of having too many chefs in the kitchen
One dude comes up with an idea, executes it half way and then forgets the finishing touches
balmy condor
I love when new rogues come in with “but the tooltip said” and then I hit them with the cup game of “zoldyck, dashing scoundrel, and mastery all say poison damage increased, which ones affect envenom”
cunning blaze
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
limber lion
Alacrity always serves to me as a little reminder how they said, they would tota...
Iirc Alacrity was added to the ptr like a week before the live game was released.
Just something quick to fill the gap that removing TB left
Couldn't think of anything better
slow oriole
Yeah, something along those lines, was TBD for basically all of beta
limber lion
I mean, I don't hate Alacrity. I hate that it's the only option.
Venom Rush is legitimately the worst talent ever designed
balmy condor
Buff exsang to be a different talent
limber lion
It's still better than Exsang but it's so fucking lame
limber lion
Yeah, Venom Rush wasn't played in 8.3 a single time by anyone
Why is it still a thing
Weee now my Mutilate costs less energy
Very poggers
hollow river
I love when new rogues come in with “but the tooltip said” and then I hit them w...
dashing and mastery, no?
🧐
balmy condor
dashing and mastery, no?
Yeh
hollow river
slow oriole
Well, now that makes perfect sense, you see Dashing and Mastery spell poison with a lowercase "p" and Zoldyck spells it with an uppercase "P"
limber lion
That's what you'd think
hollow river
hushed dirge
If I could have a 3rd legendary slot it would be to have the vendetta cd.
slow oriole
So, they clearly cannot affect the same range of spells
limber lion
If I could have a 3rd legendary slot it would be to have the vendetta cd.
You probably can with 2 legendaries when playing Obedience Venthyr
hollow river
hopefully with the tier sets we get to play the vendetta CD leggo
drifting imp
The worst thing is, beeing the only sooth in your group and having to hold your shiv for ages in some trash fights or the first boss theatre 
why does it have to be shiv
limber lion
Because it relies on you consistently hitting your target to get the cd reduction
hollow river
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
limber lion
If they introduce intermissions and whatnot like they did in SoD, it'll fuck up the timers
hollow river
like stiletto sticcato for sub
limber lion
Yeh
hollow river
limber lion
Not a big fan of that conduit either
limber lion
I mean, Duskwalkers does reduce cd by energy usage
hollow river
but it needs to be done well
limber lion
hollow river
LOL
slow oriole
What's like the expected reduction?
hollow river
just under a minute iirc?
hushed dirge
PepeLaugh
hollow river
reduced by just under a minute i mean
limber lion
Yeah something like that
Of course it might change ever EVER so slightly with new gear and legendaries
hushed dirge
Thinks of the damage.
limber lion
i like the sound of obedience+dusk synergy
Yeah, but that's also assuming the 4p is actually any good
hollow river
true
limber lion
And we're not entirely sure yet if it is or not
slow oriole
I mean, if you can get relatively consistent 28 - 30 stacks for Obedience, that could be fun and if you get a mechanic during it, you can just log off for the rest of the raid
limber lion
If it's good, then it's definitely a good combo to look out for
But I wouldn't throw your Doomblades/Dashing Scoundrels out the window just yet
limber lion
Definitely
hollow river
they just don't change gameplay enough
limber lion
I dream of NF buffs and TO/Exsang gameplay
hollow river
me too
ngl
give me anything to make the spec more fast paced
give me more abilities to press
hushed dirge
Please buff Night Fae
slow oriole
I hope they change Deathspike, to do something in ST, Necro felt super comfy as Sin
soft shale
faster sbs with sudden fractures would be a lot of damageee
hollow river
just change each initial hit into stacks, with a max amount
soft shale
at least make it so we can have 2 sbs dots in st then
hollow river
and compounding initial damage