it wasn't where
#assassination
gusty mirage
Tryna out my sins and you hit me with this
spice spire
cerulean nest
if I want to try out an alt most similar to rogue should I just do WW?
cerulean nest
imagine playing outlaw
I mean the other option would be feral but I've been there/done that and...nah
limber lion
gusty mirage
if you like dot management affi lock is pretty fun
gusty mirage
<:Cringe:750832154358972427>
what? 
bleak sky
Sp is super fun
limber lion
will this work?
what the
frosty bridge
will this work?
LMAO
timid cloud
dapper heron
Hi I've just started assasination and wanted to know what would be the best Lego for this spec
dapper heron
@balmy condor thank you
latent locust
guys is it ok not playing CT in keys? if we have lots of aoe dmg alredy?
latent locust
ok so on bosses i use CT to refresh dot then?
gusty mirage
no way man
subtle tundra
its literally there so there's an option for ST on that row.
gusty mirage
nothing more satisfying than hearing that sound and watching it hit for like 800
balmy condor
pb sucks
small basin
it makes the best sound
subtle tundra
it was fine as an artifact power bonus, its dogshit as a talent
small basin
better than hidden blades
balmy condor
hidden blades is way more interesting
subtle tundra
atleast hidden blades does something to your rotation.
poison bomb random proc that does nothing
ah yes
balmy condor
good thing it isn't
dense hamlet
dense hamlet
Soon ™️
keen radish
Did search but couldnt really find an answer; if obedience is better for ST, why are all top ASS parses using Scoundrel?
placid pagoda
Did search but couldnt really find an answer; if obedience is better for ST, why...
Frost set
balmy condor
because it's passive and basically equal
and having to do obed timings are kinda cringe
keen radish
makes sense, thank you
timid cloud
No.
balmy condor
dashing crit = more crit = frost set
timid cloud
It’s Frost damage.
subtle tundra
dont think anything affects winds proc
keen radish
ahhh yeah that makes more sense
placid pagoda
Winds counts as a poison or something?
What whispyr says, the frost dom set works insanely well with dashing
pallid bough
fuck your sound
game sounds off anyways 
balmy condor
exactly
small basin
no
balmy condor
yes
small basin
ok maybe venom rush
golden basalt
i agree pb needs to go
I also wish they either made alacrity baseline, tied it into SnD, or just removed it
golden basalt
although id definetly dislike SnD more if envenom didnt extend the duration, actually having to manage the buff feels awful
dense hamlet
guess we dont want 50% aa speed 
timid cloud
I’m glad we don’t have to manually apply it more than once usually, it would just clunk up the rotation, & not in a good way.
small basin
rupture does damage and gives back energy
sinful cradle
SnD also gives dam
timid cloud
I mean you only press it once then you keep it up by simply doing Envenoms, so it’s not really like Rupture, it’s a maintenance spell, sure, but without the maintenance.
small basin
idk i guess i just imagine assa as being all about the bleeds/ poisons
so rupture feels fun to press, esp as you get energy back from it
dense hamlet
the whole point of pressing anything and getting energy is to do dmg
and snd does the same
so idk whats so different
maybe its the name or icon
maybe if it was named something like
idk
Destruction
📈
subtle tundra
Snd doesn't give energy though
dense hamlet
well i meant the doing dmg part
subtle tundra
You press it once a fight
dense hamlet
not the energy
subtle tundra
It's unnecessary
subtle tundra
Then why is it there
dense hamlet
idk
subtle tundra
If its non interactive
dense hamlet
it wasnt infinite
now it is
now we just want it to be not there and be baseline
subtle tundra
Yea, cause they realized it was a mistake
dense hamlet
ye it was
nocturne zealot
Is there somewhere where I can find a generic "best" opener? I know it'll vary dependant on single target, multi target, length of fight? Idk
Mutilate, Slice, mutilate, mutilate, garrote, rupture
Example
pure moth
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
nocturne zealot
OK thank you
pure moth
Check out guides. They are posted
gusty mirage
wow im doing a bit more white dmg
yeah I hate doing like 1200 more dps
its the worst
small basin
ok
hexed frost
Are there any decent legion trinks worth looking out for? Hunters do have some nice agility trinkets there.. So was wondering
red plaza
Auto attack one from Court of Stars I believe. Haven’t kept up to date on if they nerfed it for timewalking though
slow marsh
AA ring will be a solid sidegrade
strange python
Sorry if this has been asked before - is master poisoner worth taking with zoldycks?
fallen arch
No
strange python
Ah okay - I'll stick with EP then thank you
also - am I supposed to replace envenom with CT outside of shiv or is that out of date
hollow river
also - am I supposed to replace envenom with CT outside of shiv or is that out o...
in ST, yes
if you're not using Dashing
but you only maintain the CT dot
don't spam it
strange python
gotcha - thank you
found myself getting frustrated at how bomb never procced when I wanted it to
grand ridge
I think an expansion or two ago they made the proc chance higher but made it do less damage so you didnt have to rely on rng as much
i just ignore the bomb procs entirely pretty much. saves me some frustration
I am already looking at my winds crits every pull lol
glad siren
Love seeing 98k+ winds crits
hollow river
found myself getting frustrated at how bomb never procced when I wanted it to
you should only be using CT for m+ and a couple multi target fights
poison bomb is still far better for regular ST
limber lion
Is there somewhere where I can find a generic "best" opener? I know it'll vary d...
Well, length doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is the amount of targets
But muti - slice - muti - gar - flag - rupture - vend - shiv - vanish - muti - env - muti works well on most situations.
grand ridge
with that with bs/ds, there is a small amount of time on that garrote where I am out of energy
I am frost set, so less haste
limber lion
That's completely fine
grand ridge
ah ok
limber lion
Even with 30% haste you'd be sitting there waiting
grand ridge
I always wondered if maybe there is a more ideal opener for that. thx
limber lion
It was the same thing in Castle Nathria as well.
grand ridge
sitting there on that garrote just feels bad
limber lion
As a blood elf you can use arcane torrent there
Muti - Slice - Muti - Arcane Torrent - Gar
limber lion
I think an expansion or two ago they made the proc chance higher but made it do ...
Yeah, well, poison bomb used to be an artifact trait. They instead made PB into a talent, albeit a much much weaker one.
grand ridge
I caved and started running bs/ds because some people on my team are catching up to my sim >_>
limber lion
BS/DS is actually worse than EP/MfD or EP/Vig on most fights.
It's only good on Guardian, if that.
grand ridge
huh
limber lion
yup
steel ridge
Thats whats called a simbait
limber lion
Not really.
BS/DS is still the best combination on single target
which is what you normally sim for
But Guardian is the only pure single target fight in the instance
Everything else has some sort of adds, movement or mechanics tied to em
steel ridge
But you just witnessed eric getting baited by it
People tend to take patchwerk for raid sim
limber lion
Sure, but a lot of casual players don't even know about the existence of sims
It's very likely that someone just reads a guide that recommends bs/ds
steel ridge
Yep
full tendon
Vigor always [feels] so good tho
full tendon
Figured I'd work on other renowns now, so working on Venth first. I've been running Zold forever in keys. Do I run Obed when Venth?
inner temple
Figured I'd work on other renowns now, so working on Venth first. I've been runn...
yeah
cerulean nest
if it's within my power/ability to go sub for KT and sylv (prog), do you think thats the right move? over sin
red plaza
Either works, they are both comparable p3 damage (which is our biggest strength). I recommend playing what you’re most comfortable on and then sticking to it. I did 150+ pulls progging on Sin and I tried Kyrian sub for the last couple clears and it did not go so well 😂
slow marsh
whichever you are more comfy on for sure. if you are honestly equal on both then sub is better suited for the fights but you have to be honest with yourself on which you're better at
cerulean nest
im definitely much more comfortable on sin, but with a tiny bit of practice I could easily shake the rust off sub.
glass tulip
venthyr sub is the most comfortable from assassin imo
full tendon
Does sub use the same dom set tho?
cerulean nest
just a gear thing I guess. Im way more equipped for sin
glass tulip
blood set or unholy, whichever sims better
glass tulip
I have no sylv daggers, its great
full tendon
Twinsies
Don't even have a 252 dagger yet
Been valor 246s since like late July/early August ;_;
cerulean nest
guess i'll stay sin then
fossil abyss
Been valor 246s since like late July/early August ;_;
I feel you
fleet anchor
Thats whats called a simbait
I think that's the wrong terminology for "simbait" though. That's usually terming for dealing with things not possible or practical in reality.
The other aspect here is that the difference between these two talents is super tiny either way.
Not like BS is particularly bad on any of these fights either. Other than maybe Sylv potentially due to execute HP thresholds
EP is obviously better with adds but not all of these fights have tons of consistent adds either (say The Eye, The Nine) so it's kinda whatever
red plaza
summer marten
yeah ok thanks i have the correct just wanted to make sure
summer marten
yeah i have the correct i'm necro though
limber lion
Then it's Doomblade/Dashing for raid, Zoldyck for m+
versed mica
My sims have been interesting. Because nadija is bugged, I've been simming Theo, and it wants me to play dashing and mfd
limber lion
What's weird about that?
Dashing + MfD has been the go-to combo for a while now
Or Obedience + MfD
versed mica
I thought mfd was obedience only lmao
versed mica
Pog
Any guesses on the leggo combo next patch? Dashing/obedience vs doomblade/obedience I'm assuming, but which one?
balmy condor
any pinners
versed mica
Dashing/obedience seems to work well together, but envenom damage with obedience vers means big envenoms
I know, I'm just wondering if anyone has any guesses on which combo will be the beat
Best*
balmy condor
io not big enough
versed mica
I ain't asking for definite information ffs
I was just curious on what people guess, that's all lmao
balmy condor
subtle tundra
i mean, its just obedience and then the highest simming leggo
balmy condor
is this not enough of a guess
versed mica
Yes I saw the pin, how many times do I have ro say that lol
balmy condor
then I'm confused
versed mica
Idk I'm just bored at work and wanted to talk guesses fuck me I guess
subtle tundra
ok but my shiv leggo?
versed mica
Okay, I'll ask even more clearly
Between doom and dashing, which do you think will be best with obed
Just a guess, I ain't asking for Sims lmao
subtle tundra
completely depends on tuning
balmy condor
so no clear win for dashing
poison tier set? probably dashing
envenom tier set? who knows
versed mica
True, didn't think about tier sets
balmy condor
before frost set, dashing and doomblade were actually equal
completely interchangable
so whatever they add in, will be the deciding factor
and until then
they're still equal
versed mica
Wasn't doomblade slightly better multi target at that time?
stray mural
@subtle tundra tiny toxic blade build when
subtle tundra
rn crafting
balmy condor
Wasn't doomblade slightly better multi target at that time?
better on 2, worse on 3
versed mica
That's right
Okay here's my tier set suggestion for blizzard
2 piece: shiv increases poison damage by an additional 15%
4 piece: when your poisons proc, increase the damage of your next shiv by .5%
stray mural
I want it to be fun. They said it’ll make rotations fun iirc
subtle tundra
no thx i want something thats good for m+ too
balmy condor
would actually be good in m+ if we're still prio damage
marble hemlock
isnt deathspike slightly more than 0 singletarget?
since you get 2 extra SBS per fight
balmy condor
Should I edit it to 0.2?
marble hemlock
DONT BITE MY HEAD OFF
balmy condor
echo geyser
@subtle tundra watching u 
subtle tundra
that was a quickie
oak sky
oak sky
@echo geyser whats the stream 🧐
thorny pond
so no clear win for dashing
Exsang buffed, bleed tier sets. Doomblade meta around exsang
quaint sequoia
Give.me back shroud of suffocation as one of the tier set bonuses and I'll be ha...
u mean Shrouded Suffocation?
balmy condor
Exsang buffed, bleed tier sets. Doomblade meta around exsang
Cease
thorny pond
If I’m right I get to be green gang for a day
gusty mirage
If I’m right I get to be green gang for a day
if you're right I'll quit wow forever
what kind of cursed wishlist is that
gusty mirage
glass tulip
another week of sylv, another no dagger drop 
thorny pond
then all you Brads can play NF
subtle tundra
@echo geyser can you feint the draw soul from kul'tharok????
echo geyser
<@!141252922649477120> can you feint the draw soul from kul'tharok????
circle works i think
so not all of it
subtle tundra
fading wigeon
u mean Shrouded Suffocation?
Yep that's what I meant
fleet anchor
Also Deathspike still bugged to fuck and any Deathspiked hit borks refunds 😦
So it's really not even good for AoE either
dawn ivy
bone spike alreadyb had issues that couldnt be fixed by itself, idk why they doubled down and made a leggo that ALSO had conditions to reset charges
uncut echo
!GUIDES
prisma monolithBOT
drifting cloud
legs
balmy condor
Also Deathspike still bugged to fuck and any Deathspiked hit borks refunds 😦
L necrochumps
uncut echo
Thank you <3
oak sky
L necrochumps
W+ necro dead+ obedience zoldyck keys + ratio?
fleet anchor
Whispyr skipped 9.1.5 and doesn't realize we are all one now. Yeesh.
Even more stubborn than Ion. 🤣
gusty mirage
Whispyr skipped 9.1.5 and doesn't realize we are all one now. Yeesh.
nah this channel will always remain venthyr vs necros
dawn ivy
would be kinda nice if nf had a chance in the sun before thie expac ends next tier
limber lion
Exsang buffed, bleed tier sets. Doomblade meta around exsang
A man can dream
subtle tundra
real gamers played it in 9.0
limber lion
Yeh
dawn ivy
felt like nf/kyrian in the first tier was basically a meme
limber lion
Kyrian is the only one I haven't touched
thorny pond
A man can dream
Thank you for your support. I can’t wait to be bleed main 9.2 in a furry suit
red plaza
Kyrian sub 1 shotting people in arena to 2100 was peak 9.0 performance
limber lion
Thank you for your support. I can’t wait to be bleed main 9.2 in a furry suit
You and me buddy
glad siren
What's mfd
glad siren
Oh tyvm
limber lion
Np
glad siren
I've never used it in raid. That something on cd I assume with envenom after
glad siren
I'll have to try it out
limber lion
Not too difficult
balmy condor
Whispyr skipped 9.1.5 and doesn't realize we are all one now. Yeesh.
you can go fight mawsworn with me, as long as you're not in smelling distance :/ rotten corpses and throwing bones at people smh
take a shower
thorny pond
Wish we could get a new covenant and really start a shit show
gusty mirage
Wish we could get a new covenant and really start a shit show
its okay, SL will be over soon
and we can find new things to argue about
thorny pond
When is soon?
gusty mirage
When is soon?
not soon enough tbh
thorny pond
Thank god
slow marsh
and we can find new things to argue about
like how dustwalker is going to be pog
glad siren
@limber lion you said ep mfd or do mfd?
limber lion
Ep mfd
gusty mirage
like how dustwalker is going to be pog
@limber lion this man is using mentions to harass me
thorny pond
like how dustwalker is going to be pog
See above
glad siren
Ok ty again
fleet anchor
you can go fight mawsworn with me, as long as you're not in smelling distance :/...
Haven't Undead Rogues been a thing for a while? At least I'm an Orc. 😛
limber lion
like how dustwalker is going to be pog
There's always someone preaching duskwalkers
And it never sees play
gusty mirage
limber lion
Unlucky
balmy condor
they stink too
sour wraith
😦
thorny pond
not soon enough tbh
Was complaining in guild disc when I load up WoW anymore I instantly exit and start work projects instead
subtle tundra
yea but what about the 1 min flag vendetta wombo combo broo
slow marsh
And it never sees play
but it will when we have double leggo
limber lion
Maybe
thorny pond
Get that exsang buff with duskwalker + fae infusion + sepsis Lego
balmy condor
belf > orc = nelf = velf > trolls > everything else > mechagnome > undead
fleet anchor
I mean I'm Kyrian now anyway so can't really complain about my stinkiness
slow marsh
true it is only for assassination
sour wraith
belf > orc = nelf = velf > trolls > everything else > mechagnome > undead
😦 😦 😦
limber lion
Hated playing duskies in legion
balmy condor
I mean I'm Kyrian now anyway so can't really complain about my stinkiness
government mandated bathing to cleanse your earthly memories
thorny pond
Sepsuz and Cyndaria were legion. Who had legendary luck then?
sour wraith
Sepsuz and Cyndaria were legion. Who had legendary luck then?
cyn and valeera's for me
limber lion
Sepsuz and Cyndaria were legion. Who had legendary luck then?
Mantle of the Master Assassin was my very last legendary that I got
So that was fun
slow marsh
i want to see MA + Deathly meta
limber lion
I was rocking Kil'jaiden's for weeks
fleet anchor
there's still lore in this game?
So much lore that nobody even knows what the lore is anymore, even the people writing it
thorny pond
Damn feelsbadman
gusty mirage
Sad but true
limber lion
I just want to always play MA everywhere
subtle tundra
i want to see MA + Deathly meta
only problem with those two leggos is that they would be omega good on outlaw so they cant make them good for assa/sub
slow marsh
true was just gonna say it's simply better for outlaw no matter how you spin it xD
thorny pond
That talent was such a copout
limber lion
Or well
gusty mirage
Without the talent we would be playing it fo sho
god without the talent imagine how miserable the rotation would be
limber lion
The nerfed version is ass as well
fleet anchor
Too bad the talent exists
When you add legendaries then phase them out and make them baseline only to phase them back in and wutface at the baseline version
limber lion
Nevermind
thorny pond
It should not have been an ass talent maybe sub
limber lion
When you add legendaries then phase them out and make them baseline only to phas...
I hate it
:(
thorny pond
Just be glad agonizing poison isn’t a legendary
balmy condor
When you add legendaries then phase them out and make them baseline only to phas...
but without lego MA why do we have nightstalker? 
slow marsh
As much as I stan obed+deathly master race
I just know it's gonna be some obed doomblade boring ass bullshit
thorny pond
Nah man
limber lion
Probs
fleet anchor
Maybe the 3rd talent on that row should buff you for NOT using Stealth. 🤔
slow marsh
I do have faith
balmy condor
50% crit while NOT in stealth
dawn ivy
^^^^
balmy condor
slow marsh
It's just that simplicity is always better in the end
thorny pond
Maybe the 3rd talent on that row should buff you for NOT using Stealth. 🤔
Talent book > outlaw > “activate”
fleet anchor
Outlaw that now Vanishes like every 10 seconds?
sour wraith
cto is a thing though
fleet anchor
😄
thorny pond
The fuck is outlaw
fleet anchor
Outlaw with the most Vanishes of any spec!
dawn ivy
its some meme rogue build
thorny pond
I vendor those trash pieces
limber lion
Ya'll are bonkers
dawn ivy
no one really plays this "outlaw" build though
limber lion
Insignia was kinda fun
fleet anchor
Insignia was not too bad. A little boring but it was a nice all-arounder
slow marsh
Depending on fights, outlaw is looking kinda rough next patch in its current state imo
thorny pond
If you didn’t have it EN you were trash
fleet anchor
Depending on fights, outlaw is looking kinda rough next patch in its current sta...
Outlaw gains the most from the legendary change though
slow marsh
I was just gonna say it might be the highest ST spec with cele+resounding
limber lion
Assa not exactly rocking it either
slow marsh
but if fights have more than 5 adds it might be rough
fleet anchor
Sub is like "lose everything that is making your spec really strong + you get the least from a 2nd legendary of any spec in the entire game"
slow marsh
sub might get infinite dance windows though
thorny pond
Hope we get to keep the dagger in OH forever too
fleet anchor
Sub may not end up going Kyrian without dagger, it'll be close with Obe
dawn ivy
thorny pond
A 259 dagger in OH with kyrian and Akarii? Idk
fleet anchor
Maybe, but the damage is static so it may not stay relevant without secondaries
I don't think it'll beat Mythic OHs
thorny pond
The dance uptime is good regardless
worn panther
Without daggers Idk if Sub would use Kyrian over Obe, and it would probably be Obe Akaari or Fatality
fleet anchor
Outlaw gets some really nice synergy with double strong leggos as does Assassination
dawn ivy
i kinda fuck with ovedience/rotten
limber lion
Sounds boring
thorny pond
Reso Fin is just whatever
limber lion
Just like most picks
slow marsh
what are the chances sub gets infinite dances / close to infinite dances though
fleet anchor
But Sub in a pretty difficult spot because unless the set bonus is way better than the others
It's essentially losing 6% damage
fleet anchor
Relative to Assassination/Outlaw
dawn ivy
SoD set bonus
slow marsh
i guess dance isn't a huge boost anyways considering symbols only lasts 9 sec and you already get dance for entirety of flag
thorny pond
Outlaw gets giga with two cov legos + potential set bonus synergy
dawn ivy
we dont really want more dance uptime than we already have
thorny pond
we dont really want more dance uptime than we already have
Start going dark
thorny pond
That’s the natural progression if dance becomes infinite
worn panther
I don't see a world we would have so much % uptime that Sub would use Dark
fleet anchor
Ironically, Outlaw might use a Dagger OH the longest of any spec.
thorny pond
Answering his hypothetical
fleet anchor
Outlaw will likely still be Kyrian, gains less from OH scaling
sour wraith
you still use es in pvp
fleet anchor
Assassination will trash the daggers very quickly
sour wraith
i think dark was only used with rotten cheese
worn panther
Yeah you still use ES on pvp, no reason not to
worn panther
i think dark was only used with rotten cheese
yEP
dawn ivy
the moment assassination gets heroic daggers form next tier EoN is gone
thorny pond
Hopefully they buff the baseline of sub to compensate and make some nice changes to sin
dawn ivy
thats the thing though @thorny pond sub isnt in a bad ENOUGH position to need buffs
slow marsh
Sin won't need changes
thorny pond
Rogue peaked too early
dawn ivy
its going to lose a little, sure. but its not suddenly going become the worst spec in the game again
slow marsh
Rogue is gonna drop hard next tier but will still be more than fine
thorny pond
Sin won't need changes
I don’t feel good about a spec that relies so heavily on frost set this tier
dawn ivy
but its in that sweet spot of balance changes where it doesnt NEED anything and will probably become middling success
sour wraith
we also have no idea what the tier set will be, how the cypher will interact, what the fights look like, and what balancing will be done
dawn ivy
sure, but sin/outlaw are building INTO the shard set pretty well
slow marsh
Sin is gonna suffer more from no talent changes than losing shards
thorny pond
Right but the crit build will be devalued a bit as opposed to other specs who just lose main stat
dawn ivy
most classes are just throwing the set on whichever suits them best
fleet anchor
There is no way anyone can predict tuning for next tier because it 110% will be based on set bonuses
fleet anchor
Whatever spec gets a broken double leggo + set bonus interaction is 🚀 🌛
slow marsh
Everyone wants to be the one that called it before it was known
Even though it's just throwing blind darts
Welp thankfully we have some options for the first one there
limber lion
I call dh op.shit
fleet anchor
atm though I think Outlaw has a pretty good chance of being in the strongest position because I feel like it has the largest potential to take advantage of the legendary combo situation
slow marsh
DH is nasty
slow marsh
But I suspect dh will cry about eyebeam spam as usual
fleet anchor
Outlaw has great options and basically has a legendary for every single one of their class mechanics that are likely to be on the set bonus
slow marsh
One button spec
fleet anchor
Like Outlaw has all the bases covered lol
MA/Deathly/Celerity/Pistol Shot leggo/BtE leggo/MG Conduit/Triple Threat conduit/RtB conduits.. doesn't really matter what the set bonus is, they have some way to fuck with it
slow marsh
I agree outlaw is most guaranteed to be fine as long as there aren't fights that require >5 aoe
And even then will likely be highest st spec
fleet anchor
Assassination toolkit atm is a bit more limited, but we'll see
If they do something that works nice with Doomblade or Dashing we're good
slow marsh
It is due to having to choose between aoe and st which sucks
I think zold could be an option again next tier
limber lion
Hell no
Zold is our worst legendary
And it's not even close
Zold has m+
Keep it away from raids
sour wraith
until they release a boss that starts at 30% 
slow marsh
Yeah until we have 4 execute fights kekw
I'm not saying it'll be good Im just saying it could be back in the mix as a niche option for sin to have an execute
thorny pond
Execute legendary effects are boring asf and basically useless for half of prog
slow marsh
Zold+exsang cursed build
thorny pond
But until you reach execute threshold the slot is a stat stick
thorny pond
MA and NS dream?
limber lion
Open world content bis
limber lion
Mega burst
slow marsh
The second MA is an option outlaw stonks go up way higher
limber lion
thorny pond
Outlaw has cele
Or other random shit that is good for niche reasons
Then paired with a cov Lego
fleet anchor
<:yikes:792756742357778432>
Just you wait until they make some generic Shiv set bonus and forget TTB exists
thorny pond
Gege
thorny pond
Just you wait until they make some generic Shiv set bonus and forget TTB exists
Inb4 the kid who said poison ticks /hit increase next shiv damage by .5%
limber lion
Just you wait until they make some generic Shiv set bonus and forget TTB exists
I sincerely hope it has something to do with bleeds
slow marsh
outlaw also gets to play dreadblades as venth and has a 1.5min vanish
thorny pond
Why does everyone hate exsang?
sour wraith
make exsang 400% tick rate again
fleet anchor
dawn ivy
i was thinking exsang could be good if they made it a fucking passive
slow marsh
cuz exsang is bad gameplay
slow marsh
i didn't even play during bfa and i hate exsang
thorny pond
Exsang was giga in legion
limber lion
Exsang is great gameplay whatchu mean
dawn ivy
exsang was pog in nyalotha
limber lion
It actually changes how you press your buttons
fleet anchor
I mean if you wanna make Exsang good again all you have to do is make some +1000 Haste proc/on use
sour wraith
i actually really enjoyed the exsang expedient gameplay
limber lion
And how you plan pandemics
dawn ivy
but unless you can get me back to 80% haste i dont want it
fleet anchor
Without snapshots Exsang sucks though
limber lion
Instead of slam slam slam slam
thorny pond
Nobody here thinks
dawn ivy
back when we rivaled fire mage burst
fleet anchor
That being said
I think the chance of them accidentally making some giga Haste proc is high
So you never know
limber lion
It wouldn't be enough to make Exsang good though
fleet anchor
Some giga Haste on-use probably would
thorny pond
Need exsang buff before random builds
limber lion
Not even at 126% haste would it beat Alacrity
slow marsh
nobody talks about venom rush anymore
slow marsh
dawn ivy
venomwhatnow?
thorny pond
Nobody ever did @slow marsh
limber lion
They seriously need to tweak our talents
fleet anchor
If you could combine a giga haste on use plus 30 stack Flag I think there's some potential
limber lion
I hate every row, except for the mfd/vig/ds row
thorny pond
That row for all 3 specs isn’t even a thought process
slow marsh
the cheat death row is pretty pog
limber lion
Alacrity too strong, alternatives too weak
thorny pond
Make poison bomb big again
slow marsh
i still wish more things worked with elusivness
limber lion
the cheat death row is pretty pog
I have not changed a talent in that row
In 4 years
It's always cheat
slow marsh
cuz it's the best row we have
limber lion
And it will always be cheat
slow marsh
ofc
fleet anchor
I run Soothing Darkness as Sub fairly often but yeah
sour wraith
play pvp and you'll run elusiveness as sin
dawn ivy
soothing is the only time a rogue can MAYBE swap off cheat
sour wraith
😛
dawn ivy
what does outlaw even have
fleet anchor
Also with our current stats, would it surprise you to know that (buffed SL) Venom Rush is actually better than Exsang? 🤣
dawn ivy
is it still vial %?
limber lion
Cheat
sour wraith
elusiv and vial %
slow marsh
outlaw has cheat
fleet anchor
I mean I will say, I actually disagree about the full xpac
limber lion
Also with our current stats, would it surprise you to know that (buffed SL) Veno...
No, like I said, Exsang does not pull ahead even at 126% haste
It is our worst talent
limber lion
Yeh but that's encounter issue
That's just the fights/mechanics being designed like shit
thorny pond
I hope they overhaul talents but that has some@many balancing implications I would bet they don’t
slow marsh
it was literally just SLG that made elusiveness god tier
fleet anchor
Cheat literally did fuck all on like half the encounters due to the simultaneous damage event issue + the lowered max HP cap
dawn ivy
im desperate to see the community council results
i NEED to see names so i can yell at whispyr or fuu or cev
slow marsh
I hope they overhaul talents but that has some@many balancing implications I wou...
i agree, as much as i wish we had talent changes, we won't get them especially considering community's perspective of rogue right now
thorny pond
i agree, as much as i wish we had talent changes, we won't get them especially c...
Just in general. Like all the specs have dead talents that if they changed it up, it would be a balancing nightmare
limber lion
i NEED to see names so i can yell at whispyr or fuu or cev
You can cross me out immediately
:--D
slow marsh
it would require devs to know more specs
dawn ivy
eh ill still yell at you like the void
limber lion
Good
dawn ivy
"YOU SHOULD HAVE APPLIED CEV WTF MAN"
limber lion
Nothing better
slow marsh
retired cev would've been perfect for council
dawn ivy
cev are you full retired? or just for a bit?
dawn ivy
dawn ivy
just when i was getting good at the game a hero has fallen
limber lion
Was kinda looking forward to rwf
thorny pond
just when i was getting good at the game a hero has fallen
Never meet your idols
limber lion
But it just takes too much time
I mean I'll still be here
But I'll be a washed up andy
Maybe
Probably
fleet anchor
im desperate to see the community council results
Not really expecting the community forums to lead to any change at all tbh
Just deflection really, they already have plenty of places to gather feedback
dawn ivy
i have to believe
slow marsh
It's a good smokescreen
cobalt pelican
this time for sure
slow marsh
to make us think they care
dawn ivy
this time ™️
fleet anchor
Get an intern or two to browse Reddit/official forums/Discord and write weekly reports to the design leads
Achieve the same result
But not as fancy looking
slow marsh
When they make a change based on our feedback that goes against their agenda then i'll believe
changing something that people have been yelling at them to change since beta almost 2 years later is not convincing at all
fleet anchor
Week 1 Report:
- People think Covenant swapping is dum
Week 2 Report
- People think Covenant swapping is dum
Week 3 Report
- People think Covenant swapping is dum
- Sylv is annoying
Week 4 Report
- Sylv is really annoying
- People still think Covenant swapping is dum
"Yes but what can we really gather from this feedback? This is very difficult to interpret"
cobalt pelican
the unironic blizzard dev response to any feedback like that is that casuals don't use any off-game mediums for feedback, or even give feedback
they just login and have tons of fun secretly in the corner
based on [random numbers that look maybe good sometimes]
fleet anchor
Yes, Blizzard assumes silent == happy
Because there is some notion that unhappy people complain
Therefore if you only see complaints, it's just because of a vocal minority
It kinda ignores the fact that people who are unhappy and unengaged just...quit
Engaged, unhappy people are at least people you can save
dawn ivy
fleet anchor
Survivor bias issue? 😛
dawn ivy
exactly
limber lion
WoW is in essence a seasonal game
Similar to stuff like PoE
We play for 1-3 months after a patch drops then we start playing other stuff
We get excited about new releases and give it a shot again only to get disappointed/bored soon after again
And the cycle continues
hollow river
Because Cheat was so fucked in CN
how was it fucked?
cobalt pelican
do kinda wish it was more common in non-top guilds that need 500 alts ready to just
not play between progress
fleet anchor
Like the problem with the logic is like "X% of people complain about Covenants but a larger percent don't complain therefore we're good!" is not sound logic. You really need to compare the number of complaints vs. the amount of positive feedback.
How many people actually posted "Man, Covenant swapping system is SO IMMERSIVE AND AWESOME GREAT JOB BLIZZARD. Also your class balancing is perfect. Top notch. GGs."
cobalt pelican
but there's always a mix of people who really do want to play every day and logistically guilds are a pain in the ass
fleet anchor
But like it's hard to believe they will listen to community forums when, to use one example
We were literally bringing up that Assassination was 20% DPS behind everyone else for like
8 months
This wasn't some hidden thing
fleet anchor
It was reported on beta forums, it was reported on live forums, it was on WCL, it was on SimC
"If only we had some feedback"
🤔
hollow river
they should be able to sim balance themselves and fix before release
but you guys do it
makes no sense
fleet anchor
how was it fucked?
The DR and heal/absorb portion doesn't apply properly on simultaneous damage events. If you get hit in the same server tick twice you'll likely die even with Cheat.
hollow river
I commend everyone here for doing it, you guys do an amazing job
but reallistically they should be able to fix their game, before release
fleet anchor
Since many mechanics in CN had multiple AoEs that triggered at the same time
hollow river
during beta/PTR at the latest
fleet anchor
You just would always die
hollow river
hmmm
i definitely proc cheat more in SoD
and didn't/doesn't the necro Heirmir ability mess with your Cheat as well?
i've heard something about that iirc
fleet anchor
Yes
limber lion
Kind of
fleet anchor
Sometimes it takes priority for who knows what reason
Probably similar issues tbh
They never really fixed them
fleet anchor
how was it fucked?
Here's an example from my guildie back on Darkvein
Second hit got no DR so just killed immediately after the 7% absorb/heal
That second hit should have only hit for 337
Not 2251
Can see no mitigation applied on it
Due to a lot of the fights in CN, it basically made Cheat pretty useless
hollow river
dang i wish i would've known that lol
gusty mirage
Like the problem with the logic is like "X% of people complain about Covenants b...
How much of that do you think is because happy people don't really provide feedback
honest question
happy consumers are usually the quietest bunch
kindred rapids
No love for leeching poison huh
fleet anchor
happy consumers are usually the quietest bunch
Quit consumers are the quietest bunch. Happy ones are quieter than unhappy ones. 😄
gusty mirage
yea true
fleet anchor
But there are ways of measuring "sentiment"
That can adjust for noise rates
Sentiment analysis is a rather large analytics field so they've had quite some time to prove out the different weightings
glad siren
ok... simming MFD does better... and it sure increased my envenoms but it kinda killed my winds of winter dmg ... 😦 maybe i just suck
slow marsh
it doesn't decrease your winds
bleak sky
rng is rng
spark scaffold
it doesn't decrease your winds
It does, like 2-5%, not noticeable anyway
hollow river
It does, like 2-5%, not noticeable anyway
spark scaffold
I wonder if its worth to save vanish for winds proc instead of using it during flag vendetta
100% worth if you're not syncing because of fight duration
fleet anchor
Vanish doesn't work on Winds
MA is whitelisted
Winds isn't a class ability so not in any class specific whitelists
balmy condor
yeah but it's a tooltip
and tooltips are dogshit
95% of effects in the game only affect your actual class abilities
that's why MA doesn't work in NW on the weapons anymore for example
there's some outliers, deeper daggers on sub, ghostly strikes on outlaw, celerity as a legendary, the fire mage conduit that increases fire damage
those all for some reason buff everything
but those are exceptions, not the rule
vendetta doesn't buff winds or weapons or trinkets either
fleet anchor
Back in the day it would have worked, but we've moved towards full whitelisting of everything in the BfA+SL era
balmy condor
yeah
idk
maybe it's just scared of effect stacking
since there's so many layers
somber hill
lean fossil
@balmy condor any chance they might change the necro legendary for 9.2 so its actually useful lol
spice spire
@balmy condor any chance they’ll buff me to be useful?
balmy condor
if it's like a reaping type affix
with aoe and shit
giga good
I just want them to fix the bug
if they fix the bug it's actually not a bad legendary
spice spire
Same 
balmy condor
but if it's anything like current season where it's like "hey rogue do boss damage" and "hey rogue funnel the mini boss"x4
then obviously deathspike
not great
but who knows what tier sets and double legendaries and balancing and trinket nonsense and seasonal affix bring to the table
maybe tier set just makes monks single target specs and our cleave is useful or something
idk
lean fossil
im just glad at this point all specs of rogue are viable lol
hollow river
<@167090536602140682> any chance they’ll buff me to be useful?
can't fix us boomers ):
limpid willow
IMO assassination needs buffs ❤️
limpid willow
oh its amazing, I'm just nit picking the irrelevant minimal difference between specs at least with the gear I have come across
gusty mirage
this is how we turn into boomkins in bfa
dead
and no one likes us forever
#justsayno
hollow river
@gusty mirage
gusty mirage
hi
somber hill
gusty mirage
hollow river
the AH
hollow river
you also saving up for a sylv kill in case your guild never gets there?
no
i will get there
gusty mirage
I'm stackin' racks just in case
hollow river
the guild should get there
hollow river
bro it's rough on the mental
like i wish we'd do a 10hr raid day
the weekend before our break
gusty mirage
limpid willow
how much even is a CE Sylv boost?
gusty mirage
6.5mil
hollow river
if we go on thanksigiving break
gusty mirage
and you get the mount
limpid willow
the hell, that insane
gusty mirage
their expectations are low, they think I'm good
hollow river
i really like most of the leadership in this guild
gusty mirage
dw
gusty mirage
idk how we haven't killed this shit 2-3 weeks ago
SAME
hollow river
LOL
i guess i go sin for this boost run
haven't even practiced heroic in weeks
hollow river
haven't done any raid in weeks just M sylv
should be easy enough
well yeah H sylv dies so fast
you just pop once in p1
pop on boss burns
and sync in p3?
when do boosts usually lust p3
3rd plat after veil?
spice spire
Yeah
spice spire
can't fix us boomers ):
😦
spice spire
glad siren
Well you're further than this derpy rogue
We just hit 4/10 last week. Maybe 5/10 next week... but on a brighter note I'm almost always #1 😁
hollow river
nice gamer
glad siren
For whatever that's worth
glad siren
Ty
We are falling apart. I just ... I like the few good people we have... Hard to let go. Lol
dim mural
wasnt painsmith nerfed? no balls first intermission
oak sky
yep
brazen gyro
I think it’s more of a buff Bc now people don’t get to practice until several minutes in
dim mural
maybe, but p2 and p3 isnt quite the same in timings etc as in HC, so once you get through them you have the practice from p2 and should get him down quite quickly. both up and downsides i guess
cobalt pelican
it's still a very significant nerf
dim mural
just got CE wednesday so havent done anything but sylvanas for the last 4-5 weeks so should be a better fight for reclears :>
cobalt pelican
it's also just way more likely that you're able to plow through 2nd intermission with 3 crs to use at the end of it which gives you way more room for 'hard' intermission deaths
fleet anchor
I think it’s more of a buff Bc now people don’t get to practice until several mi...
I think it defers some of the learning but ultimately makes the fight shorter in practice because wipes are way less common until the 2nd intermission now
At the end of the day, just means more brez's for second intermission
Flip side is that you get more practice for your ranged dodging P2 spike waves and movement patterns which are also a major source of prog wipes
Still think it's a pretty substantial nerf to the fight even learning fresh
limber lion
3rd plat after veil?
Usually right away at the beginning of plat 3
hollow river
yeah last time we did a guild run we killed her in the middle of plat 3 iirc
didn't know if the boss having more hp in a boost would matter
timid cloud
I know some guilds that were progging it before we even got finished progging Painsmith & we beat them.
timid cloud
Nope.
wind totem
wtf
viscid spear
Tried out Necro Outlaw with two guildies in a ToP+15, had horrendous input lag the entire time. Felt like my abilities were reacting slower than Internet Explorer. Disheartening, but we timed it no sweat. Least I'm done leveling that Renown
frigid kestrel
I played nothing but necro sin in keys and was good at it. Then I hopped on the sub train when I went Venth…… now for some strange reason I am struggling to play Necro sin in keys again
thorny pond
Just a different focus is all. You’ll get it back in time
viscid spear
How does Necro Sin play?
fallen arch
Yes
viscid spear
Deathspike not worth crafting until 9.2?
nvm, I see Whisp's pin
Hoping we get datamined tier set bonuses soon, the anticipation is killing everyone
plain onyx
at what percentage i should be always pooling ?
soft shale
when you have already envenom buff up and have no need to refresh bleeds soon
you pool to around 70% max energy or so usually it comes to that
small basin
the purpose of pooling is for higher envenom buff uptime and burst in shiv windows right?
peak bobcat
And for EP Windows
fallen arch
Deathspike not worth crafting until 9.2?
It’s pretty fun for open world stuff and torghast
And an occasional 15
viscid spear
Since Venthyr looks to be the play for Sin, wondering if Necro Outlaw will be a thing
soft shale
dont think so deathspike seems like a bad leggo for dual play
rc/obe are quite strong in themselves
viscid spear
Never used Echoing Reprimand since Kyrian's the only one I haven't been
soft shale
it will be quite cringe for assa too
as they dont really like any cov leggo but obedience right now
but maybe tier set changes things
thorny pond
Yep. Who knows. Hope we get some positive synergy with every spec
soft shale
onslaught can be kirky for outlaw or sub but for assa i dont see potential
maybe rc dusk becomes a thing
quite unholy if i may say
thorny pond
If we end up being a spec that goes bleeds with tuning or builds it may be good. Seems like other cov legos like Obe or toxic ons would be better tho
limber lion
Toxic Onslaught is really bad
Which is sad
Because furry gang is bis
The soulbinds aint great either. NF hasn't got much going for it
golden basalt
I dont really remember the stat weights for CN but isnt it possible that dreamweaver might gain a lot of value if we lean towards more haste
although sepsis is still wack
viscid spear
If we end up being a spec that goes bleeds with tuning or builds it may be good....
Exsanguination making a return? 
golden basalt
think the main problem is that its on the same tier as alacrity which is just too powerful
thorny pond
It is strong. Exsang would need some vend synergy and probably a big haste proc as well as tuning to beat out Alan
Exsang is so bad VR is better than it
solemn junco
fallen arch
think the main problem is that its on the same tier as alacrity which is just to...
Alacrity should be baseline
So they can design something interesting in that row
brazen zodiac
Alacrity should be baseline
Yes please :c
So I don't gotta die in painsmith tryna keep it up
.<
limber lion
So I don't gotta die in painsmith tryna keep it up
Wut
If it's baseline then you don't have any choice