assassination

[hollow river]

because veil hits right as i'm done building stacks

[oak sky]

i 2nd flag during adds

full value every time and value during my half vendetta

[hollow river]

3rd sentinels?

[oak sky]

no

2nd

[drifting cloud]

but you said you vendetta before veil

[hollow river]

so you're not syncing p1

[fair glade]

you guys are using flag on cd or with vend any time ?

[hollow river]

which is also kinda ehhh

[hollow river]

depends on fight timing

[oak sky]

if youre losing half your vendetta anyway

might as well sync part of flag with it but get full flag value

[hollow river]

hmm idk

[drifting cloud]

wait do you mean

the next veil

[hollow river]

if i hold for after veil

i get it on 3rd sentinels

and usually the same vendetta value

[oak sky]

sometimes you have to stop if you hold for after

[hollow river]

i usually either get 10 seconds-full usage

after

[oak sky]

also later on you push during 3rd veil if your raid gets enough damage so idk

[drifting cloud]

but you said you were sending before veil, theres no sentinels that time?

[oak sky]

its about 10-15s before vendetta comes up

that i send flag

then use mfd

to get a 30 stack or more

[drifting cloud]

oh like that ok I get it

[oak sky]

yeah

then the full haste buff is during vendetta which is meh but better than wasting it probably

bleeds tick hard there i'm sure

[drifting cloud]

we had such a shit raid yesterday on sylv jesus christ

I was flagging the colossus and it wasnt dieing fast enough and other side cant look at health bars anways

then when you get to 2nd burn slower is just makes every vendetta after more annoying

[oak sky]

yeah

thats a huge tilt

[drifting cloud]

besides the fact youre just straight up losing boss dmg already because its hard to clear both platforms same time apparently

but the dmg is the least of the issues anyways its just dumb pointless deaths

I cant understand how people get hit by this nerfed veil in p2 all the fucking time

[hollow river]

🙃

idk how anyone dies to anything

hit boss run out of bad stuff

[drifting cloud]

yeah the deaths to waves especially get boring real fast

but getting hit by veil is even worse its just not gonna show on logs as nicely if you arent looking for it

or desecreating shot p1 deaths, and a rive death here and there

[balmy condor]

Half my guild basically said they’re quitting after ce

Kek

[drifting cloud]

but you have to farm the mounts

[vestal wren]

[slow marsh]

At least you're getting it this time tho right

[balmy condor]

Yeh

[vast forum]

Sadge

[hollow river]

[tacit wedge]

[dark crag]

The mount is nice, i am only missing 1 oh eon and the chest

[proper sage]

I’d offer a recommendation to my guild but we already have 2 rogues and alliance ):

That sucks man

Finding new guilds sucks but hopefully u get into one that u like even more 🙏

[stiff tapir]

Not much to do after you beat the game lol

[quasi scroll]

is there any addon that announces # of Unstable Form for tarragrue?

[solar stump]

beat everyone else at it

competition is everything

[ebon notch]

[solar stump]

[kind talon]

Okay but there’s like

9 classes or something

And 2 other rogue specs

[frigid briar]

[balmy condor]

[frigid briar]

[gusty mirage]

[balmy condor]

[gusty mirage]

[frigid briar]

[sour wraith]

Late reply but technically if you never kill sylv your guild won't quit

[balmy condor]

true

[frigid briar]

if you kill sylvannas you don't need a guild either

[gusty mirage]

^ true

[chrome spoke]

So im playing with theotar in m+ this still the best? or is nadjia better?

[subtle tundra]

theotar

[mortal summit]

Guys is Sin rogue competitive in M+ compared to outlaw? Mainly PvP but looking get into dungeons

[frigid briar]

by competitive you mean? 25+ keys?

[vestal wren]

assassination is perfectly fine in keys

the diffrence only matters if you push rly high key levels

[frigid briar]

even at 22+ keys most people cant even play their spec properly, if u learn a rogue spec you'll beat most people

unless u play in a stable group probs

[mortal summit]

@frigid briar @vestal wren

Hi guys thanks for the reply. when I say competitive I mean up to 20s

supposed buff too next tuesday for assassin right? cause of the AoE removal

[frigid briar]

I usually do around 12k on most dungeons as Assass with decent tank (not spiteful week). Other Assass rogues probs do more but usually Fotm classes are below me. Just learn it, play it and stick with it

With obedience its pretty adaptive

[mortal summit]

ok cool ty ty cause ass feels more fun than outlaw rn lol

[frigid briar]

fun is subjective but I agree

[subtle tundra]

no

assa is more fun, objectively speaking 0 bias

[mortal summit]

i just like DoT management and then big burst

[stiff tapir]

Outlaw would probably be preferred because you don’t need to rely on restealths. They both have their competitive advantages when compared to each other. Outlaw is far less maintenance. Just pop bladeflurry and that’s it for aoe/cleave

[subtle tundra]

stop calling assa reliant on restealths

😔

[stiff tapir]

Right because subterfuge

[subtle tundra]

-.-

-.-

[dense hamlet]

[stiff tapir]

No stealth no subterfuge

[subtle tundra]

yea its not big dps loss

[stiff tapir]

Unless you vanish

[subtle tundra]

its not reliant

[stiff tapir]

Missing out on 80% more damage, and the silence, is pretty big

Especially if you play iron wire

[dense hamlet]

how big is it tho?

[stiff tapir]

That’s now 2 talents you’re missing

[dense hamlet]

wasnt there a sim abt it

somewhere posted here

[mortal summit]

i think the word you guys are looking for is "marginal" lol

[subtle tundra]

its like ~100 dps if you get 0 restealths

bro..

[dense hamlet]

ye

not that big

[stiff tapir]

I mean sure but like I was saying. Outlaw is just easier for beginners imo

I personally love sin

[dense hamlet]

[stiff tapir]

I just don’t play it in keys

Cuz sub/outlaw 🙂

[mortal summit]

i mean im not asking about "easy". I was asking about competitive. with enough practice I'll be able to become competent at the spec so thats not my concern. My concern was learning a spec that wont be invited to keys

[stiff tapir]

If you want competitive. Go sub

[dense hamlet]

if u want easy sub is easier aswell

[mortal summit]

i think sub is great in pvp but just spamming black powder is lame

[dense hamlet]

ye i mean

[stiff tapir]

lol

[dense hamlet]

all u need to learn in keys as a new player is

[stiff tapir]

Seems like this is turning into a personal problem

[dense hamlet]

to learn St Cd timings

[stiff tapir]

All rogue specs are viable for high keys

Sub will be the most competitive

[dense hamlet]

yes

dosent matter

tho

[mortal summit]

@stiff tapir you are misinterpreting my questions - is Sin as competitive as outlaw, the answer was YES

[dense hamlet]

if someone is just picking the spec

how does that help them

[stiff tapir]

It’s yes. But it’s reliant on more factors than outlaw

[mortal summit]

right. I'm not concerned with difficulty is my second point tho lol

[stiff tapir]

So if you want the higher learning curve for a similar reward. Go sin.

[mortal summit]

the whole reason I was hoping sin was as good or close to is because it's more fun

[stiff tapir]

Outlaw has a better kit for m+

[mortal summit]

for me

[stiff tapir]

Gouge is just supremely OP

[mortal summit]

ya gouge is sick

ya

[stiff tapir]

the range. Is op

1 button aoe is fun

But like I said sin has its own advantages

So it’s honestly a personal choice at that point. They all sim close but sub will always be number 1

IMO

[mortal summit]

who can sin bring that others cant? is sin more prio target damage vs sub?

[subtle tundra]

it brings a lot of fun to yourself 🙂

[mortal summit]

TRUE

[subtle tundra]

garret silence

[mortal summit]

dots are so great

[stiff tapir]

Yeah. Ur silence relies on restealths

[dense hamlet]

[subtle tundra]

you keep talking about not being able to restealth

[stiff tapir]

Sub has better ST, better CDs. Better funnel. Easier

[subtle tundra]

where can you not get restealths

i've done hundreds of SL keys, never had any problems

[stiff tapir]

Honestly the way FoK works is hilariously terrible

[subtle tundra]

with 40% crit and conduits its completly fine

[stiff tapir]

5 target FoK with 1/2 CPs

Sub 5 target shuriken, 5 CPs.

-.-

[subtle tundra]

ok and

[dense hamlet]

mad?

[stiff tapir]

No I still love sin LOL

[dense hamlet]

[stiff tapir]

we deal with it

But I’m swapping to sub from OL unless it’s like ToP or Spires

[mortal summit]

so i've been necro rogue for some time. is venthyr much better or is it kinda marginal in difference?

[subtle tundra]

different strong points

[mortal summit]

I know theres guides and ive read them trust me, just want to know what people prefer for certain content

seems like venthyr is best for sin in pve and necro for pvp

[hollow river]

They’re both really good options for pve. Necro is a bit better aoe, and Venthyr is better boss damage.

[frigid briar]

Assassination is reliant on stealths tho for energy increase for faster set up, faster CT and higher buff uptime

[jaunty steeple]

didn't somebody (a CF) just say within the past couple of days that they simmed Dungeon Slice with stealth and vanish completely disabled, and it was only 100 DPS lost

[frigid briar]

I'd like to see that in actual gameplay terms

Like, warcraft logs are down right now but from memory, Im pretty sure garrote is my 2nd on breakdown damage only lightly behind CT in terms of damage, then count in energy from 3 bleeds in opener and ability to set up for prolongued sustained faster before reseting bleeds for energy

I find it hard to believe theres 100 dps difference in real game terms

I'd like to see the sim though for sure

[storm belfry]

I don’t think it’s a huge dps loss. On some dungeons where I don’t get as many re stealths compared to a run where I do get a lot of re stealths, my overall only goes down by 4-900dps. Just my experience

[frigid briar]

I mean, if you average that at around 700 dps

thats a lot

[storm belfry]

I mean yeah kinda but to me it doesn’t feel like it

It just isn’t enough to feel like a negative impact on my performance

[balmy condor]

give me a sec

[gusty mirage]

losing restealths = chain pulling = you have energy rolling from bleeds on whatever's left of the previous pull

so it cuts down the ramp up from pack to pack

and you can vanish for your subterfuge empowered garrotes

so it's really not a huge loss considering you make up for the damage elsewhere

[frigid briar]

Chain pulling is a bit different from what I was talking about since majority of players wont have a chain pull tank

I was more meaning spiteful itself

[gusty mirage]

eh you can cheese restealths on spitefuls

or toss a 2cp rupture on it and go on with your day

[frigid briar]

Dont agree with that tbh

Spiteful for generating cp, not spending

[gusty mirage]

yeah I hate free energy too

[frigid briar]

just wasted dps, even if u get the energy back, you would be as well using crimson and not bother with the nergy

[gusty mirage]

so you think sniping low CP ruptures is wasted DPS?

[frigid briar]

if its on a target thats dying itself yeah, when u could just rupture a target thats gota die

[gusty mirage]

your example said specifically dealing with spitefuls and not chaining

[frigid briar]

like its energy + meaninful dps vs energy thats gonna die anyways

[gusty mirage]

so I'm curious what you'd "be wasting dps on" in that scenario

[frigid briar]

I dont deal with spiteful

I swap spec

cos subs so much stronger

[gusty mirage]

lol

[storm belfry]

Sub kekw

[gusty mirage]

if that's your reasoning you should switch to sub permanently

because it's so much stronger in EVERY scenario

[frigid briar]

theres no way that rupturing a spiteful is worth it over rupturing a main target

[gusty mirage]

except maybe TOP

[gusty mirage]

????

[storm belfry]

Lol no downside to rupturing a spiteful

[gusty mirage]

you have literally nothing else to use your CP on in that scenario

[storm belfry]

Esp if low cp used

[gusty mirage]

if you cut out chain pulling from the scenario

[frigid briar]

Im asking why rupture a spiteful and not rupture a target that needs to die?

[gusty mirage]

you wouldn't

unless you're energy starved at the start of a pull

if you're not chaining

you' could 2cp envenom

because it literally doesn't matter

lol

[frigid briar]

what?

[gusty mirage]

Let's reframe this discussion

You said "deal with spiteful"

[frigid briar]

if u cant stealth, you FOK next pack and 5 cp rupture meaningful target

lol

[gusty mirage]

then you said "I don't deal with spiteful"

[frigid briar]

cos your on 2 cp already

I dont anymore, I swap cos its fuckin annoying and slows the spec down

[gusty mirage]

and you said "not when chaining" because "most people don't have tanks that chain"

so I'm confused what we're even discussing at this point

my 2cp rupture example was if your tank chains

if we're not discussing chaining

this is a waste of both of our time

there's zero reason to not chain during spiteful

its a waste of time

[frigid briar]

yeah, thats why i play sub on those week to abuse cp generation

I dunno what anyone else said, my point was Assassination on spiteful fuckin sucks

[limber lion]

I mean, Assa doesn't really benefit from restealths as much as you'd think. Getting 4x garrotes off in the opener allows for faster and smoother gameplay, but it's not a giga loss if a tank chainpulls and/or spiteful keeps you in combat.

You can literally remove the stealth/vanish lines from the apl entirely and the loss in Dungeon Slice DPS is less than 200 dps.

Iirc even less than 100 dps.

[storm belfry]

Yeah it def doesn’t make or break it. Doesn’t really slow it down either

[drifting cloud]

doesnt outlaw lose more from restealths or am I remembering that wrong

[gusty mirage]

you're remembering that right

they lose a lot of value from not getting that opening ambush cast

[balmy condor]

aight sorry for the delay, got caught up. So the sim here is just not restealthing between packs, you would still vanish and all that jazz, but just the pack to pack stealth, the stealth at the start, that's gone. Yes it's a loss, but it's not really giga. As to the point of rupture sniping I don't entirely get the situation I think, but rupturing things that last more than 4 seconds (given you aren't running dashing, or doomblade, or already have like 5 bleeds out), is a gain for both single target and aoe. The energy you get back on a dying target from rupturing that close to dying is actually quite significant when you'd otherwise be starved. On the topic of spiteful though, mfd is actually pretty usable, can just hit a spiteful with mfd on your way to the pack and if you're not getting a stealth, it's pretty free. Obviously does make the triple garrote thing a little harder cause of the max energy, but ya know, it's not bad.
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/i6i3hByYP4FqkTdnq1xmeg

oh I also have this sim of just aoe with no stealth/vanish in general, just to see the loss of not having subterfuge garrotes in aoe/packs

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8Qe7GKbLrdbUtaXg9EBAfb

in case you want to see that as well

(it's mostly just the same thing)

the dpet from the garrotes in that one is pretty interesting, going from 16.9k with everything, to 15.9k without the stealth at the start, to 15.2k without vanish, and 14.3k without either

it's expected obviously

but that means that you're losing about 11% of your average garrote damage by not stealthing/vanishing at all in aoe

which is honestly, not too impressive

[wet dagger]

but it makes getting top .1% with sin that much more impressive/satisfying lol

[gusty mirage]

keep fighting the good fight

[wet dagger]

just barely making the cut rn according to rio's estimation, 2662, want to get 2700 to be safe lol (alliance NA)

[gusty mirage]

ye I assumed it was going to be 2700+ by the end of the season

esp with 9.1.5 covenant switching

the ability to freely change covenant + the title will probably get peeps more interested in m+

Just know I'll be cheering you on @wet dagger

[wet dagger]

lol thx

have both venth and necro at 76 already so won't take long for me to be able to swap between em, can't see myself going kyrian or nf tho

[gusty mirage]

ye necro is my 2nd highest at like 46?

so I'll probably switch between them

[storm belfry]

I think my venth is in the 50s and my necro is 77

But tbh I prolly won’t swap. Idc to lol

[wet dagger]

idk part of how I keep it interesting is swapping between venth/necro every so often lol

would have gotten bored by now if I hadn't been

[storm belfry]

I play like 6 classes rn. So I’m kinda never bored

[subtle tundra]

just pew pew paw paw

ez

[wet dagger]

idk it's hard for me to start seriously working on alts until I feel like I'm not progressing any more on my main, and this is the first season I've really pushed past 20s lol so I've always had more things to do

and half the reason I'm still doing sin in m+ is just for pride lol, my ego won't let me throw away a spec when I'm top 20 (feels like I typed this just to brag but whatever)

[full tendon]

Sin's fun /shrug

[wet dagger]

well yeah that too

just feels hard to justify the usefulness in keys when you get beaten in both aoe AND st in the keys

at least for me, I rationalize it by doing enough ST to make up for the lack of aoe lol

[storm belfry]

Every other rogue spec I’ve gone against I out dps them as sin

Though they prolly aren’t playing optimally

[wet dagger]

I mean I don't often do double rogue keys 20+ lol, but the one I did, I think the outlaw beat me, but that was very early on

top

when I still had no daggers lol (and I still don't have a sylv dagger)

[storm belfry]

Yeah on my rogue I’m not doing that high yet so obvi won’t see double rogue. But it is fun to just double up on classes to compete from time to time

I don’t have the sylv dagger either smodge

[wet dagger]

😢

[storm belfry]

Only doing 21s on my 3 healers atm. My 2 dps are just doing 17s and 18s

I was trying for the dagger but the pug couldn’t get past p1 so I left

[wet dagger]

I have an arcane at like 2300 and my sin at 2660 lol, that's it

I'm allergic to meta specs probably

[storm belfry]

My goal is for 6 classes 2100+. Rn I have 2 about at 2300, 1 at almost 2100. Then 2 at 1800

I don’t have a push group. So I haven’t been trying to push

Alliance sucks

But I’m dedicated to my raid team so I stay

[full tendon]

I surprisingly beat a lot of pugs in 20+ keys atm

But they're obvs not best

[storm belfry]

I never see any of those pugs lol

Every time I try to pug a 20 or 21 it just flops lol

[wet dagger]

Yeah last season I didn't even have any portals until the literal last two days, and I ran into a bear and hpal and we hit it off and made a team

[full tendon]

Most keys flop, in my experience. Easily like 90%

[storm belfry]

Yeah

[full tendon]

Super frustrating, lol

[wet dagger]

Depends on the week

[storm belfry]

I thought about moving my rogue and shaman to horde but Idk

[full tendon]

This is a fun goal. I'm 2556 on one, 2400 on another, 2330 on one, 2387, and two more I want 2200+

[storm belfry]

Yeah I’m having a blast w it tbh

The classes are hpal, rdruid, rsham, disc priest, rogue and mage

The first three are already at the goal or past it

[full tendon]

Noice

[storm belfry]

Stay at home dad privileges

[full tendon]

Mine are windwalker, arms warrior, sin rogue, survival hunter, and I want my DK and DH to be 2200ish

[storm belfry]

Ooh survival hunter. Fun spec

I played a lot of it last season. But I haven’t touched since

[full tendon]

Supes fun

[gloomy violet]

is oil + phantom fire better or 2 sharpening stone + specctral agility betteer for raid ?

[gusty mirage]

stones + agi

[gloomy violet]

ty

[echo geyser]

@subtle tundra does ur tank not want u to run slows btw?

[subtle tundra]

he said no to the slows

he doesnt even play consecration slow

since its sanguine and we have no knocks

[echo geyser]

true sanguine week

[oak sky]

@echo geyser i got my first 20 last night

[echo geyser]

gz

that means u got a portal

[dense hamlet]

do u keep those portals for ever or is that a only shadowlands thing

[spice spire]

Big boy fragger

[echo geyser]

forever mostlikely

wod and mop portals are still here so

[dense hamlet]

nice

[spice spire]

Can’t wait to TP to Mists 20 years from now

[dense hamlet]

ye man

[echo geyser]

[soft shale]

to get all the grateful offerings

[oak sky]

it was wake

[timid cloud]

HUGE

All of my portals are on alts. :^)

The boys never need my Rogue...they always need my Hunter for lust.

[storm belfry]

Sadge

[full tendon]

Get new boys

[minor pendant]

hello i just came back from my break

hows assa doing in raid an m+?

[rancid spade]

9.2 waiting room

[balmy condor]

all 3 rogue specs are good in m+ and raids

especially raids

[minor pendant]

oh okay nice

[plain onyx]

It's pretty good, check out **Zerocoolx **on twitch and see how it goes. he's no 1 assassination rogue

[balmy condor]

As Long as he’s not still playing dashing

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

Love the guy

But god damnit when you’re rank 1 and play random stuff and people just blind copy 0 brain iq

[dense hamlet]

toxic

[arctic walrus]

[simple rivet]

is there a joke in there

my brain too small

[dense hamlet]

dont worry bro

[arctic walrus]

master poisoner next week be ready for spam

[simple rivet]

i need this broken down to me like im 2

crayon picture preferred

[dense hamlet]

the joke was that what ever higher end of players will do other ppl copy them wrong or right without any context

and alot of them end up in here actually

[simple rivet]

[dense hamlet]

[gusty mirage]

why are you the way you are

first mfd

now this

[oak sky]

[hollow river]

[slow marsh]

Hey guys I heard someone talking about master poisoner and I was just wondering if it will be better than ep for some fights specifically when we use dashing and poison bomb

[balmy condor]

Nah mp actually dead

I did some

[dense hamlet]

lethal poison conduit 📈

[slow marsh]

Also I heard that using dashing with master poisoning and lethal poison and sepsis with well placed shiv will maybe be good for night fae rogue

@gusty mirage can you help me out on optimizing my fatescribe

[balmy condor]

Can’t find the sim but I forced 100% envenom uptime max wps/LP, dashing, and even did a “whoops haha I have my m+ set on and have like 45% mastery silly me I’m not a mastery simp I’m just so quirky haha”

And mp was still like 4% behind

[dense hamlet]

[balmy condor]

I mean during beta LP was almost 5x the current value and MP slowly edged out the other talents, but it took like rank 10 conduits, which is what we have now

So it’s pretty rough world for mp

[slow marsh]

Rip MP

Just kidding

Poorly designed talent get it out of here

Also why do I have to be like one global off of 30 stacking obed outside of vanish. So annoying

[hollow river]

i consistently get 28 on pull with lust

idon'tgetit

then i'll randomly get 30 with no lust sometimes

[oak sky]

tbh

mp being a pvp talent is fine with me

[slow marsh]

With lust I get 30 almost every time and on pull I get 30 but I also cheese MfD for snd so I'm not sure how much it any that helps

[balmy condor]

If only there was like, some talents you could pick, only for pvp, like a pvp talent system. Maybe like a list you can pick a couple from?

Idk

[oak sky]

never heard of those

[balmy condor]

I doubt they would ever do something like that

[hollow river]

[hollow river]

yeah idk why i'm consistently getting 28

[slow marsh]

Because you finish on 4 twice

[hollow river]

i mean, i get that

i want 30

[slow marsh]

Crit less 4head

[oak sky]

then don't double crit on the first mutilate 4Head

[hollow river]

first spend inside flag is 5

very consistently

[slow marsh]

You flag rup so that's 10

[hollow river]

other than that though its a lot of 4

[slow marsh]

Shiv vanish mut envenom 15

MfD 20

[hollow river]

then 2 4's i guess

[slow marsh]

Mut crit envenom back to back for 28

[hollow river]

ye

[slow marsh]

You could maybe squeeze a 2p after but not worth

[hollow river]

yeah i've had time to squeeze 2-3 from the last mut i think but i just build again

usually time to refresh gar, which could wait a couple globals but just don't want to finish on 2-3

[slow marsh]

All in all the 2s desync if using obed is fine since it just gives you two globals to build then pool

A lot better than desync for 5-6 seconds imo

[brazen zodiac]

ice do u playtheo I don't remember

[plain onyx]

guys, is there any macro i can use that auto activates Tricks of the trade on the tank without hovering and clicking on his frame ?

[solid venture]

#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
/target playername
/cast Tricks of the Trade

[golden basalt]

^ or change /target playername to a focus macro

[echo geyser]

focus tricks is bad, because that removes the ability to use other focus macros like kick kidney blind cheapshot etc

u can use /cast [@party1] Tricks of the Trade or @ name

party 1 if tank is leader which usually is the case

or theres a weakaura as well https://wago.io/r1jW3Oo2G/1

[storm belfry]

[echo geyser]

[gusty mirage]

@echo geyser sharing the secret tech to never miss an interrupt

Extra secret tech, alt modifier macro for kick/kidney

One button for all your needs

[placid radish]

don't most people use sap/kidney?

[gusty mirage]

More common in pvp but ye

but I meant more like alt modifier for focus, like my kick is F my focus kick is shift F

[subtle tundra]

imagine using focus macros, i just miss the intrerrupt and take the blame 😎

[echo geyser]

i also dont kick when i play sin

i just garret

[jaunty steeple]

but I only see you play sub

[echo geyser]

got kicked after that one key

never played it since

[jaunty steeple]

[gusty mirage]

garret 1 garret 2 garret 3 garret 4?

or

[echo geyser]

yes dont forget exsanguinate

[gusty mirage]

FOK FOK

CRIMSON TEMPEST

[subtle tundra]

🇬🇳

[strange python]

🇨🇫

[slow marsh]

Yeah I do

Oxi never answered my question from last night

[frigid kestrel]

Ok, so with FOK uncapped and with high crit are we close to getting Full cp in every FOK on big pulls?

[brazen zodiac]

Ice teach me your ways

[balmy condor]

If you can pull that many mobs sure

[frigid kestrel]

I should have dove into PTR but I’ve been Uber lazy

[balmy condor]

With 40% crit you’re looking at 10 mobs to fill your cp statistically speaking

[frigid kestrel]

Sound decent, might go into PTR today when I get off work and see what if feels like with %50 crit. I might try and start pushing keys again.

[slow marsh]

What ways I'm trash 🤣

[balmy condor]

Yeah I mean it’ll be good for the 3-4 pulls where you get that many

[frigid kestrel]

Havnt done keys (even my weekly 15’s) since my last guild broke apart, so take this question like I’m full on brain dead.

There isn’t a consistent amount of 10+ mobs in a lot of keys? I thought HOS, SOD, MOTS, DOS, and PF had a fair amount of huge pulls.

[slow marsh]

After the double WW fire mage meta hits there will be

[balmy condor]

Mots has like 3 at the end with a lot of it being small rubbish that blows up instantly, spires has like 2 that you do together with a spear if you’re feeling yourself, halls at the start you can, but the first pull is rarely more than 8, shard on the right ISNT more, the top shard on The left you can make more than 8, but that’s with the little gremlins, they explode, the bottom shard you can make more than that. I haven’t seen big plaguefall pulls outside of the slimes at the start and mdi, I don’t think it’s realistic that you’re pulling both packs onto domina (which would be 7), dos has ardenweald, which is big, but then like mechagon is maybe 5, the hakkar area is no more than 7 if you double pull. The start I guess, but that also has small skeletons that die pretty much instantly

[kind talon]

I think the one caveat is that you skip pretty much all of mechagon in dos

Other than the one 5 pull

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[bleak sun]

Top have 2 maybe 3 big packs

Souls/lich area & plague

[balmy condor]

Are they more than 8 though and do they live long enough for that to matter

Like the plague area pulls are big because there’s a lot of little boys that have no hp

The souls on higher keys are done in 2 pulls a lot of the time, which would also be around 8

[mortal summit]

so doomblade on shoulders? obviously theres the "sim yourself" path but I have like no gear on this fool

trying to look at the mythic tables

[jaunty steeple]

shoulders is a dom socket slot

[dawn haven]

For M+ yeh, for raid tho.....

Shoulders also a 259 slot

So not worth tbh.

[mortal summit]

ok so would suggest back then?

[dawn haven]

Yeh 100%.

If you have the ability to get the 259 shoulders, then don't even consider crafting doomblade on them. If you aren't mythic raiding however, might be a good choice just for stats in M+.

[mortal summit]

not 100% sure i'll make it there but its absolutely a goal

[dawn haven]

:D

[mortal summit]

was a hunter main, coming back to 9.1.5 and decided to play my rogue FOR REAL

[slow marsh]

Even without mythic raiding the dom slot is still more worth for the gem itself

[mortal summit]

never realized how much fun it is in PvE and not just pvp

[dawn haven]

If you don't have 3 already, yeh.

[mortal summit]

stats vers and crit im assuming?

[dawn haven]

For M+ yeh. Haste/crit for raid.

[mortal summit]

and 190 is the lvl 1 for leggos right?

[dawn haven]

Yep

[mortal summit]

ok sorry for lame questions - been like 6 months lol

[dawn haven]

Dw, I'm like 2700 io and I still ask some pretty dull questions here lmfao.

[slow marsh]

The frost defensive ones are massive for m+

You for sure want all 5 slots even for m+

[dawn haven]

In some scenarios yeh. Idk. It might be different for sub just because obed can be put on helmet.

For sub it's just better for stats to go for the helmet over a fifth gem slot. 4 gems are good but 5 aren't too effective.

Only 2 of the 3 frost gems provide a -big- bonus to M+. The crit bubble one is kind've negligible for actual defensive benefit.

[jaunty steeple]

I mean, you do want the 3 DPS gems, then Kyr and Zed

[dawn haven]

I prefer Jas than Zed for survivability tbh.

[jaunty steeple]

Zed is damage, and not a completely insignificant amount as far as I know

[dawn haven]

Basically like having 2 armor kits and taking more passive healing affects shields too.

[slow marsh]

Yeah idk if the stats equate to the amount of healing that those two frost gems give but I could understand doing it if your healer is real nutty

Zed is like .1% damage

[dawn haven]

I guess it depends on comp and how much self healing you need.

[slow marsh]

You go the three dps gems then the two frost for absorb shields

[dawn haven]

And yeh, Zed is pretty miniscule, tried it a lot and it never gave any noticeable damage benefit.

[slow marsh]

Yeah the thing is that it's not just self healing though.

But it's near to splitting hairs so I'd just say do you I guess.

[dawn haven]

Yeh, it's a small bonus regardless deciding what the 5th gem is.

[slow marsh]

I could understand wanting to have obed on helm going into 9.2 so it's fine

[dawn haven]

Honestly not even for 9.2.

Just in general, it provides a lot of stat, extra dps and stam which is more benefit that a 5th gem when you look into the numbers on it.

No gem provides the same dps as the...I think it's a rough 10-15 extra agi?

[slow marsh]

For pure mdi m+ setups then yeah sure it makes sense. Again to me it's splitting hairs and not that big a deal

[dawn haven]

Plus helms have kinda trashy stats on them.

[slow marsh]

Naa both raid helms are really good

Big crit or big haste

[jaunty steeple]

I honestly haven't tried Zed on rogue myself, but I did hear that it's 1-1.5%

[dawn haven]

Fair. The one from Nerzhul is good for M+. One from Fate is def nice for raid. I retract my earlier statement.

[jaunty steeple]

[slow marsh]

It's more like 0.1-0.15% 😂

[shy dust]

?

In a dungeon

It’s consistently close to 1%

In any dungeon I’ve run

[slow marsh]

It's a meme

[shy dust]

There’s a big difference between .1 and 1%

[dawn haven]

I've never seen Zed get to 1% dps personally.

[shy dust]

I’ve seen it multiple times on my WW

[dawn haven]

Usually around a 0.4-0.5% dps bracket for me.

[shy dust]

Much closer to 1% than .1

[slow marsh]

For me it's actually like .05-0.7 but never actually pushes over 1% when I've used it

So yeah close to 1%

Get way more value from the frost absorb though

The frost set as a whole is so busted as stupid as it is

[dawn haven]

Only lasting for 1 tier rip

[slow marsh]

Yeah can't wait to see what stupid thing they'll put in next tier

[dawn haven]

It's tier sets.

It's been known for a bit.

I just wonder what abilities the tier sets will revolve around.

[balmy condor]

Get ready to be disappointed

[dawn haven]

:(

Nah trust.

OP rogue tier sets inc

Just gotta wait 5 years before 9.2 comes out.

[balmy condor]

Imagine thinking dom shards weren’t blizzards attempt at tier sets

[dawn haven]

[balmy condor]

If anything, they’ll see that people didn’t like it, and will just scrap it and replace with some other borrowed power

[vestal wren]

not sure if dom shards are better or worse than tier sets

[toxic quail]

looking at my logs for M+; Zed does consistently 1-1.6% dmg

[vestal wren]

speaking from a impact point of view

[fallen arch]

[toxic quail]

less than 1% i feel youre doing something wrong

[balmy condor]

I wouldn’t even know how to mess up zed

It’s basically completely passive

[toxic quail]

just pure downtime i think

[balmy condor]

Procs on its own

Yeah I guess

[toxic quail]

like you said its passive as can be

[vestal wren]

dom shards give similar benefits to all classes/specs. Tier sets can be hit and miss and tuning is not done enough to fix differences that come from bad bonuses

[fallen arch]

Oh u meant tier sets

U said dom shards twice

[vestal wren]

oh, my bad, fixed

[pallid bough]

Dom shards are definitely stronger than tier sets (from past)

Dom shards inherent problem was simply acquisition and usage

Tier set you had 3 items from a boss each item was shared for x amount of classes, get 4 in any slot and you are done

^ could be traded too

Dom shards has extra hurdles to go through to unlock full potential

[placid radish]

if you mean shard sets then yes. Tier sets would work in M+ though so it's even harder to balance them

[pallid bough]

Getting 3-5 socket slots, getting the correct Head, Chest or Shoulder.

Not to mention one of the worse things that people don’t talk about dom shards is the fact that your vault sorta becomes useless (from m+) slot

If you get a piece that conflicts with a dom socket piece from m+ it’s a waste

[subtle tundra]

dom shards dont affect gameplay

[pallid bough]

Ya

And that’s bad tho

[dawn haven]

At least tier sets will be active in dungeons kekw.

[pallid bough]

Tier sets unique design was that affected gameplay for certain players

Classes**

Remember the HFC vanish CDR reset for higher uptime on FW?

[balmy condor]

[pallid bough]

I don’t think they are gonna do class specific tier sets tbh

[balmy condor]

I’m telling you, they’re not making legit tier sets

[pallid bough]

^

[dawn haven]

I hate that I agree with you @balmy condor

[pallid bough]

I understand in BFA simply due to azerite slots

But if they wanted to do them, they would have done it this tier

Class specific tier sets^

[dawn haven]

I just want class specific tier sets ya know?

:(

[slow marsh]

They don't have enough devs and certainly not good enough devs to make good tier sets in the proper sense of the term

And I don't foresee them being able to aquire any devs with the creativity and bandwidth to be able to pull it off well

[frosty bridge]

Can't they literally copy some old ones?

[slow marsh]

It would be different if they had a decent avenue to receive community feedback and ideas to borrow from, but they have made it very clear that they are too egotistical of a design team to do that

[slow marsh]

You mean like the legendary powers and legion or what? 😆

[frosty bridge]

Rumour technically but Max "heard" that Blizzard is going all in on fixing the game or something

So there is some

[jaunty steeple]

that sounds like some hard copium

can I have some?

[frosty bridge]

Blizzard pulling a No Mans Sky

[jaunty steeple]

[slow marsh]

It's easy to say that stuff with FF popping off like it is

[jaunty steeple]

kinda wish I cared about FF

but I just can't

[slow marsh]

All those games that did the 180 miracle comeback had one thing in common. They humbled themselves, admitted their faults and overall became way more open and interactive with the community with what was going on

That stuff doesn't work when it's just rumors behind closed doors with nothing to show for it

[frigid kestrel]

Gotcha, thanks for the break down

[glass tulip]

what is Whispyr's warcraftlogs

im tryna stalk and learn 👀

[echo geyser]

[limber lion]

[slow marsh]

[echo geyser]

cev logs private

[balmy condor]

👀

I ain’t special

My heroic average is like a 97.6 or something

Can’t get a good sylv parse

[fading wigeon]

97.4

[balmy condor]

Cev pushing me down the totem pole

[fading wigeon]

still amazing!

[balmy condor]

[fading wigeon]

lol

isnt cev retired now?

farming sheep and enjoying his grand children

[timid cloud]

Just simply send your CD’s...

I’m going to do that today I think. Sending my vendetta on the Goliath right before we go into P3...

[edgy orbit]

my parses for heroic are terrible but I am using raid finder NoE

also i'm nf till tuesday when i can swtich

[gusty mirage]

You actually played sin this tier?

[slow marsh]

[echo geyser]

i witnessed whispyr outlaw on painsmith

[drifting cloud]

we dont talk about that

[glass tulip]

D:

imagine playing the worst spec

[echo geyser]

[placid radish]

yellow class

[glass tulip]

assassin at the bottom pepehands

[oak sky]

4th is the bottom

[gusty mirage]

Dark times for our hero

[glass tulip]

bottom of rogue specs* :)

[vestal wren]

image playing the worse spec of 3 and still being #4 on the chart

[south spear]

Can rogues soak p3 M sylv ?

[quasi ledge]

Yes

[south spear]

Book of shadows not filled with Sylv info 😛

[glass tulip]

cant wait to be useless again in 9.2

[vestal wren]

frost set is rly doing a lot for the spec rn tbh

[placid radish]

https://i.imgur.com/bIT4JEz.png

hectic add cleave btw

[glass tulip]

🙂

[oak sky]

Did you miss 9.0.5 or what?

[glass tulip]

oh I was there

[oak sky]

[glass tulip]

that's why I said "again"

[oak sky]

Now way of knowing if we're useless without seeing borrowed power tbh

I think its gonna be good

[slow marsh]

notice how all the ST specs are at the bottom tho cuz you cherry picked a fight lmao

[arctic hare]

Trueeeeeeeeee

[gusty mirage]

cherry picked overall damage for KT instead of boss damage too

our havoc DH giga parsed, with 80% of his damage being adds

legit did disc priest damage to KT

[hollow river]

[echo geyser]

overall dmg all that matters

[hollow river]

I got to stay upstairs once on heroic

And parses a 95

[echo geyser]

i was upstairs but i also dont know how to pad as sin

i swap to tank adds

[hollow river]

Just put dots and everything that moves

I do too

[spice spire]

boss damage only thing that matters, you hit asingle add on soulrender, and you're banned from rh

sorry king

[hollow river]

Lmfao

[glass tulip]

can anyone tell me why this macro doesnt work?
/cast [nostealth] Stealth

supposed to be able to click it while stealthed and it will do nothing

[oak sky]

wait what

whats the purpose

[oak sky]

press ct on adds and stay upstairs the whole fight 😄

[echo geyser]

[oak sky]

i havent seen kt in over a month

[hollow river]

Same

[oak sky]

i will next week though

[hollow river]

We’re taking a week off for thanksgiving

I really hope sylv dies before

[glass tulip]

supposed to be able to click it while stealthed and it will do nothing

spammable so that it wont untsealth you

[oak sky]

oh

no idea

[midnight mist]

I use this : /cast !stealth

[glass tulip]

that doesn't seem to do what I am trying either

I basically need it to never ever recast stealth

oh well

[midnight mist]

wdym? this one will stealth u but not unstealth u

isnt it what u want?

[glass tulip]

Yeah but I tried it and it didnt work

[midnight mist]

is ur game not in english ?

[glass tulip]

It is, there is really nothing that I know of fuck it up lmfao

[midnight mist]

u didnt forgot the ! before stealth yea?

[glass tulip]

sigh

no.

[oak sky]

maybe you need to click stealth from spellbook

only thing i can think of

[midnight mist]

bro did u put the macro in ur bars

[glass tulip]

just forget it

I did everything that you said correctly and it just did nothing differently in my game :)

[midnight mist]

there is like no way it doesnt work unless ur game isnt in english

or

idk

[glass tulip]

mm, I know how I fucked it

stealth bar exists

and I have every button exactly the same on the stealth bar so it looked like nothing was changing at all

[midnight mist]

🙂

[glass tulip]

🙃

[echo geyser]

classic

[oak sky]

i have stealth bars on forgive me father

[echo geyser]

this is one instance where macro text is good

[balmy condor]

Time for the napping box, get in brother

⚰️

[oak sky]

my stealth bars only change vanish into shroud

👍

[balmy condor]

[drifting cloud]

you got sap bound out of stealth?

[oak sky]

yes

5

might as well have the same bindings

[full tendon]

Gimme this macro

[oak sky]

no macro

[wraith mantle]

so im confused how does sin work in aoe? specfically m+ 5-6 packs?

[oak sky]

you keep snd up the whole time with cut to the chase

then you garrote 4 mobs to open

ct for the dot

then spread ruptures

[wraith mantle]

normally i just try to keep rupture up on as many things as possible

[oak sky]

envenom to maintain snd

yeah you want rupture on as many mobs as you can

thats correct

[wraith mantle]

but then after the start of 4 garote i never press it i normally just spam fan of knives rupture and ct whenever it falls off or is about to

i feel like having 35% haste doesnt help there

[oak sky]

yeah you should be trying to garrote mobs that don't have it on cooldown

also shiv in aoe on a prio mob or just as a builder

[wraith mantle]

what about flagellatlion

[oak sky]

press it on a prio mob

[echo geyser]

why do i wanna play sin in keys

[oak sky]

cuz its fun

[wraith mantle]

becuase its not meta

[echo geyser]

probably cause in my head we still have shrouded suffocation and im expecting 40k dps from 3 garrotes

[wraith mantle]

normally garote is still my number 1 dps thing on fortified weaks

[oak sky]

yeah ct and garrote are both usually very high

[echo geyser]

yeah being able to throw 3 garrotes everytime u stealth is nice

[oak sky]

+1

[wraith mantle]

or 7

[echo geyser]

yeah true u always do 4

but i still feel bad not being alliance if i play sin

[oak sky]

idk

[echo geyser]

[oak sky]

its not too bad

but nelf meld would be pretty good

[echo geyser]

having meld for extra 3 garrote/silence is pretty insane utility for a racial

[wraith mantle]

garrote 3 times from stealth, vanish, 3 more plus meld for 3 more plus the one at the end

[oak sky]

idk

sometimes better to hold for silence

[echo geyser]

dude meld in bfa with shrouded

[oak sky]

or to reapply

[echo geyser]

mental gains

[oak sky]

true

[subtle tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/blush-anime-shy-cute-girl-gif-16149781

[echo geyser]

[subtle tundra]

if only i were alliance

[wraith mantle]

if only i was a nelf

[echo geyser]

cross faction racials when??

[subtle tundra]

just let me be sexy nelf:(

[oak sky]

we just need cross faction gameplay

[wraith mantle]

they need to fix the male nelf models

[echo geyser]

u w0t m8?

[oak sky]

they need to fix not being able to play with your friends if you like alliance

[subtle tundra]

male nelf are sooo hot

[balmy condor]

[echo geyser]

its kind of a crime to be male nelf/belf

[balmy condor]

we talking about degenerate things? I could smell it

[subtle tundra]

fight me

[oak sky]

male belf is WICKED

[echo geyser]

always in this channel

[oak sky]

cant teach this

[drifting cloud]

[echo geyser]

[hollow river]

[subtle tundra]

pure hotness

[oak sky]

😎

[hollow river]

I’m probably switching to orc

[oak sky]

[hollow river]

[oak sky]

have fun i guess

[subtle tundra]

im troll and kinda want that belf utility in m+

[spice spire]

Ahhh yes

The succ

[gusty mirage]

[hollow river]

[gusty mirage]

[strange python]

🤨

if ur character is female it's cuz you wanna fuck ur character, if it's male it's cuz you wanna be your character

opposite if ur a girl tho

[oak sky]

i wanna be my main

i wanna fuck my alts

this is the way

[full tendon]

Truthiness.

[full tendon]

Dafuq you say

[gusty mirage]

spicy hot take bro

like carolina reaper spicy

[oak sky]

seems cold to me

[spice spire]

still not as spicy as ur love tho oxi

[hollow river]

bad spicy

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

female belf bis mog tho

[hollow river]

weird spicy

[spice spire]

will die on hill

[strange python]

I couldn't play my rogue as female because if you press adrenaline rush as outlaw it sounds like she's having an orgasm

[gusty mirage]

spoken like....

[spice spire]

yeah, only one gasming round here is me ho

on jah

[gusty mirage]

I'll be good nvm

[spice spire]

[strange python]

even worse when you play celerity and it just happens randomly

[echo geyser]

[gusty mirage]

kinda sus that a female character screaming in game gives you a quarter chub

[echo geyser]

playing with gamesound

[spice spire]

imagine not getting a halfie

[echo geyser]

[oak sky]

gamesound

[strange python]

I play with gamesound sometimes

just depends

[spice spire]

listening to vc as well?

hella cringe

[echo geyser]

mines at like 3 or 4%

[gusty mirage]

imagine not playing with so many WA sounds that you can't hear shit anyway

peasants

[spice spire]

only metal blowing tf out of your ears 24/7

[echo geyser]

but i always have music loud enough for it to basically be 0%

[spice spire]

WAs for the weak

[oak sky]

i kinda like game music sometimes

[spice spire]

hence the name

[echo geyser]

literally

[spice spire]

weak auras

[gusty mirage]

I'll weak deez nuts on your face

[strange python]

so im weird and usually play without music

[spice spire]

do it you won't

[gusty mirage]

why do you hate yourself

[oak sky]

i dont play with outside music

[strange python]

literally just gaming in silence

[oak sky]

either

[spice spire]

psychopath behavior

[echo geyser]

[strange python]

I always get so much hate for it

[spice spire]

I've committed true psychopath behavior

[oak sky]

haters out

[spice spire]

listening to WoW OST

during

pretty huge gamer move

[strange python]

it's such a normal thing to play with music on and I just don't 95% of the time

[oak sky]

i only

play games with music

when i feel like shit

and im just tryna chill

[spice spire]

that's my secret cap'n. I always feel like shit

[strange python]

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/epic-music-player this addon is big when ur just chilling tho

[oak sky]

then ill throw on some shitty default spotify playlist

[gusty mirage]

wow dude way to humble brag about being emotionally healthy

[strange python]

lets you play any ingame music

[oak sky]

im healthy

[gusty mirage]

imagine waking up not upset that you're still alive

[oak sky]

games usually distract me from anything by themself

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

playing wow?

doubt healthy

mentally mind you**

[strange python]

i'm physically healthy, not so mentally healthy

[spice spire]

playing wow is the truest psychopath behaviour

unfort

anyway

shiv on cooldown

yes of course, big brained gameplay

[oak sky]

im gonna

claim macky as my emote

[gusty mirage]

I still haven't done KT

shame me

[spice spire]

i wish I hadn't king

like I said

next week I can funnel

[gusty mirage]

nah for book of shadows

I'm doing it tomorrow

[spice spire]

oh that

[gusty mirage]

for sale

[spice spire]

do half now, half tomorrow

freelo

[oak sky]

im lost

[spice spire]

!def

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz

[spice spire]

that

[gusty mirage]

hi lost I'm oxi

[spice spire]

oxi works on it

[gusty mirage]

"I'll finish KT this week for sure"

[spice spire]

it will be finished before 9.2

[gusty mirage]

don't you say those words

tazavesh m+

[spice spire]

FUCK

oh god

you need tazza shit don't you for it?

[gusty mirage]

you know how long it takes me to test this shit for dungeons?

[strange python]

tyrannical tazavesh

[spice spire]

lmk, we can group up and run it

double test gaming?

[gusty mirage]

maybe they'll fix mailbox boss by then

[spice spire]

no shot

[oak sky]

i still havent cleared tazzy

[gusty mirage]

true same company thought Xav is a great boss design for timed content

[violet jackal]

POG 8 in the world remnant no Power infusion

[full tendon]

Half serious question: what do parses do besides let you boost?

[jaunty steeple]

make your e-peen bigger

[full tendon]

I figured

[gusty mirage]

[gusty mirage]

gives you something to do when the content's been stale for 2+ months

[echo geyser]

apply to guilds easier possibly, but that would be mythic logs i think

[oak sky]

sometimes heroic logs help if you dont have much in terms of mythic logs

[full tendon]

You know, that's a fair point. I guess I just hate that most in my guild care more about parsing than killing (but you don't parse if it doesn't die, right?). And can't even count the heroic PUGs where the raid thinks they can all exist to parse, ignoring mechanics/adds if that helps their parse.

[gusty mirage]

oh yeah

parse whoring during prog or early farm is actually cringe af

[strange python]

good guilds don't care much about parse

[gusty mirage]

tf does a 99 on a wipe matter

[strange python]

good guilds care about logs, they'll look at defensive usage and mechanics etc

[kind talon]

It means you did good damage on an irrelevant pull!!!!

[strange python]

parse isn't bad if you're performing well

[full tendon]

Precisely

[kind talon]

[gusty mirage]

ye a RL just wants you to not be a smooth brained potato

[full tendon]

Our first Soulrender kill I think my parse was like a 39. Lmao.

[strange python]

but sadly guilds at like 400+ tend to just look at parses

[kind talon]

Mine was grey

First remnant parse I had was grey

[strange python]

so you weirdly have to parse to get thru bad guilds and then actually play well to get into a really good guild lol

[gusty mirage]

@full tendon bro I switched sub for fatescribe so I could get back to intermission adds faster and parsed a 3

don't care, boss died

[kind talon]

@strange python well actually parses are an easy way to get noticed

If you are

[full tendon]

Tbf, my main is windwalker, it's def a solid fight for the guy designated to adds. But we didn't group them well, only one DK, and always after Overlord

[kind talon]

Not parse whoring / cheesing

[full tendon]

This is how I feel 1000% of the time tbh

[kind talon]

Do you have unholy or blood set on monk jw

[strange python]

I don't think parses are bad ofc, just not always super important

[gusty mirage]

plus everytime someone goes "why don't you play sub?"