Outlaw sims higher than sin for patchwerk ST. Though personally I still perform better as sin so comfort will override sim numbers obviously
#assassination
slow marsh
wintry mica
in practice I think you usually see sin winning out on boss damage, but at bis gear outlaw does sim higher
rain patio
ye for sure, I'm not a parse god anyway, and I've always felt more comfortable on Assassination
slow marsh
My outlaw sims higher by at least 200 and it's lower ilvl so
rain patio
might just pick up some daggers and try stuff out
tiny saddle
Man outlaw already has ridiculous cleave. Sucks how theyre so deezed in st now too
wintry mica
we just need a boss
slow marsh
It's easier to play sin tho and tbh you can play any of the three specs and you'll likely be in the same spot on the meters
oak sky
3?
oak sky
So 2 adds then
wintry mica
is it only takes damage from bleeds or poison
slow marsh
Nature resist down 🤣
wintry mica
why cant we get a boss like that
frosty cedar
sin is easier than outlaw imo
slow marsh
I don't think anyone would argue it isn't lol
wintry mica
yea
frosty cedar
O I thought u meant outlaw was easier lol
wintry mica
sin is one of the easier dps specs
slow marsh
No sin is easier than outlaw so bad sin rogues are better than bad outlaws
rain patio
so you're saying I'll be better off sin then? 🤔
tiny saddle
Depends on how you like to play lol
slow marsh
If you are self aware enough to recognize you're not too great then yeah probably
oak sky
Play what ur better/ have more fun on
rain patio
I've played a bunch of Assassination, figured I'd play some outlaw since they're apparantly beloved in m+ for some reason
slow marsh
Cuz control
rain patio
been playing Fury this expansion up until now though
slow marsh
Also always having CDs is nice
tiny saddle
I think sub is the most fun to play
wintry mica
i like sin the most for whatever reason
tiny saddle
But i switched to assa and got used to it
wintry mica
fan-bp-fan-bp
slow marsh
I like sin the most but I'm really vibing with ol lately
oak sky
Tornado bp bp bp bp
oak sky
Some real brainer shit
rain patio
AoE isn't really the issue, Fury has tons of that crap, my group is dying for some sustained ST
frosty cedar
welcome to sin
wintry mica
ST is basically sins thing
slow marsh
Sin or sub either way
frosty cedar
sub pleb spec
wintry mica
yea i dont think anyone would really argue that sin isn't the "worst" of the three specs in keys
but its still good
rain patio
sub isn't happening, something in my brain just doesn't work with it
wintry mica
can you press fan of knives and rupture a bunch?
slow marsh
Well then there you go
wintry mica
cause then you can play sin
tiny saddle
Throw in a ct here and there
rain patio
played Assassination off and on every few expansions since wotlk
tiny saddle
Sbs everything that moves
frosty cedar
can u spam tab target
wintry mica
yea really its garrote x4 CT, fan-> rupture
frosty cedar
sin in m+ going to break my tab key
wintry mica
lol yea
tiny saddle
LOOL
Just know that whatever rogue spec you choose
Youre gonna cry cause youre eventually gonna have to spam plaguefall
brave gazelle
yea i dont think anyone would really argue that sin isn't the "worst" of the thr...
Its definitely the less bursty for aoe but In some m+ comps it works really well, bringing consistency and good single target where some comps might be lacking
I wouldn't say any of the specs are "worse" sin is just abit more niche imo
rain patio
our DH tank wants the trinket from there anyway, it's already in the cards 😄
tiny saddle
LMFAO every rogue here knows the struggle for phial
The worst thing is seeing someone else get it
brave gazelle
The worst thing is seeing someone else get it
Or getting the other trinket in there every fuckin time 😭
wintry mica
Its definitely the less bursty for aoe but In some m+ comps it works really well...
I'd agree for anyone running keys that are under like 22+
tiny saddle
Bruh you dont know how many times i got that stupid fkin shoulder from pf
rain patio
well, it's getting late, so I'm heading off, but thanks a ton for you guys' input, I think I'll be switching lootspec to Assassination and try to pick up some daggers this weekend 🙂
frosty cedar
good luck friend
tiny saddle
Have fun
brave gazelle
well, it's getting late, so I'm heading off, but thanks a ton for you guys' inpu...
Have a rad night man! And glad hf
Gl*
tiny saddle
Btw earlier in this thread i saw some dude talking about how he wants to run doomblade and then other people were saying it was suboptimal
brave gazelle
Isn't doom like only 1% behind obedience?
tiny saddle
Its a bit lower than dashing and obedience but i dont think its by a significant amount
After talking to people here i decided to upgrade my frost set instead of getting r5 unholy
brave gazelle
Isn't doom like only 1% behind obedience?
Yeah it's 2% behind unless that's changed in the past few weeks
tiny saddle
But does the frost set even work well with doomblade?
tiny saddle
Its weird. I simmed it and doomblade simmed higher for me than dashing
brave gazelle
What's ya crit?
tiny saddle
I can get it up to 40%
wintry mica
are you necro
tiny saddle
Yeah
wintry mica
thatll do it
tiny saddle
Is it cause sbs works with doomblade?
brave gazelle
Ohhhhh sorry my bad presumed you where venth
tiny saddle
From what ive seen here people set up their builds with the frost set in mind
Loke either using dashing, or ocular
I dont have dashing nor do i have ocular (i gave it to a guildie yesterday)
idle star
Dashing allows a high crit low haste build to operate.
wintry mica
i kind of want to run ocular just because of the meme levels of crit
wintry mica
but its a couple dps behind totem even in sims with 100% uptime so no point
balmy condor
tiny saddle
I posted my stats earlier and asked if people thought my haste was too low
brave gazelle
From what ive seen here people set up their builds with the frost set in mind
Yeah that's the "meta" rn
But like I said you'll only be losing like 2% from using Doomblade so a really wouldn't worry about using it if you don't have dashing and cba to farm it
wintry mica
your haste is only too low if the sim tells you to do haste enchants and gems lol
tiny saddle
Cause even using 20% haste feels slow to me
balmy condor
@fleet anchor now take off all the tertiary dom gems you scoundrel
fleet anchor
That's all just on gear 😮
tiny saddle
And its at 15% with my crit build
balmy condor
that's actually pretty good then
brave gazelle
15s fine tbf, especially if you're running ep/vigor
wintry mica
yea damn i only have 2 speed and 1 leech on my stuff right now
brazen zodiac
whispyr all the sims tell me obedience is higher but zolyk feels like da way
i am conflicted >.<
hi raymus
wintry mica
hello
tiny saddle
Yeah that was one of my main concerns. That necro frost would be super slow
wintry mica
is there something that gives you 30 leech that isnt the blood gem
i swear i cant find this leech on any of my gear
i feel like im just being a dumbass though
oh
cloak enchant
tiny saddle
LOOL
wintry mica
turns out I was a dumbass
brave gazelle
Yeah that was one of my main concerns. That necro frost would be super slow
With low haste builds you just have to learn to energy pool a little better
It does feel more clunky I get that but it isn't "wrong" or anything
tiny saddle
If worst comes to worst i might have to slide a wow token to our priest for that constant pi
brave gazelle
But yeah tdlr unless your guild is struggling with mythic kills and need 1% more dps or you care about rankings I wouldn't worry about using doomblade over dashing rn
tiny saddle
Damn im looking at the top parsers for necro assa rogues and most of them are using frost
Coulda sworn it was unholy few days ago
limber lion
tiny saddle
All of them are using dashing as well
tiny saddle
I dont understand this simming shit
limber lion
So now Dashing + Frost pulls ahead
tiny saddle
Whys it telling me to use doom when these rogues are destroying the dps charts with dashing
placid pagoda
Whys it telling me to use doom when these rogues are destroying the dps charts w...
Gear most likely
limber lion
Dashing and frost requires a lot of crit
and whatnot
Dashing/Frost is kind of an end game setup
tiny saddle
Yeah i think i was talking to you about it earlier today
I can get to about 40% as of right now
But shit i didnt know that i would need that ocular trinket so i gave it away
idle star
Unholy set just cant makeup for 55k+ crits every 20 seconds and huge shields
Well.. im hyping it a little
tiny saddle
But it does look pretty tho 🙃
idle star
You dont need occular trink. Im using 239 amp and 242 ooze
tiny saddle
Im using a 246 phial and 239 amp
balmy condor
limber lion
tiny saddle
Shit im certain i had the dashing memory cause i cleared nathria quite a few times
But it says i dont have it
grave palm
Another off the wall question, Im looking at the guide on Ravenholdts website, and it includes vanish in our rotation when specced into master assassin? Why is that? 😮
limber lion
Read what the Master Assassin talent does.
tiny saddle
LOOL
brave gazelle
Another off the wall question, Im looking at the guide on Ravenholdts website, a...
Big envenom crit bud
limber lion
brave gazelle
Yeah they're both a 2min cd
idle star
Another off the wall question, Im looking at the guide on Ravenholdts website, a...
Because you vanish after shiv and get 3 seconds of 90%+ crit. I put out a couple 16k envenoms in that window + all the extra crit helps towards frost set procs
subtle tundra
only 16k? got a 22k once 😩
brave gazelle
Im hitting around 18ks
idle star
Well... idk. Im running +39% nature dmg during shiv and am 240ilvl... not sure how to make it bigger
subtle tundra
well im playing doomblade
idle star
Ahhh... yeh im running dashing
So you have like 20% more envenom dmg
My winds of winter is my top 2 dmg. It pumps.
Only tank 4 atm too
Rank*
brave gazelle
Mines my 4th dmg rn but im only 36%Crit rn
tiny saddle
oooh yeah with doomblade my envenom crits are gonna be fatties
mutilate crits will be nice as well
idle star
You gain dmg somewhere but lose it somewhere else
brave gazelle
Okay so I see alot of "high" key m+ assass players running vigor for m+ but with the extra energy regen from all the bleeds would deeper strat not be better in theory? I find even with 17% haste im still able to get 4 garrotes up so i was wondering why most people use vigor?
tiny saddle
Whats considered a high key?
idle star
20+
brave gazelle
Like 20+ aye
tiny saddle
Ooh thats high
idle star
I normally do 15's to 17's but most my 17's fall apart somehow
tiny saddle
I think the highest i can possibly do as i am right now is 18
Havent tried but i can usually clear 17’s
brave gazelle
Yeah I do 15s-18s om just wondering why everyone is using vig at higher keys
halcyon zealot
i think a lot of people just simply cba swapping since it’s not crucial to time most keys
drowsy parcel
its probably just habit and feelgood
ds probably better
same as in raid, but not many running ep ds... yet
idle star
Im guessing vigor is used because you dont need 6pt ruptures on mobs in m+
brave gazelle
Interesting, thanks my dudes
tiny saddle
Btw guys
When running keys, how much crit do you run since youre not using frost set?
40% is overkill for keys, no?
wintry mica
Crit is still best stat for m+
scarlet warren
i think 35% is like the minimum if im not wrong
plain thistle
scarlet warren
but its more important to sim urself
wintry mica
Yea dungeon slice sim works really well for us
scarlet warren
top gear dung slice sim to figure out whats best
brave gazelle
Aye^ 40% isn't overkill
halcyon zealot
more crit = less builders & more finishers = more dam = 
but in seriousness, just dslice sim, it’s very accurate for us
could also do 5-8target 40 sec patchwork or something if you want to gauge pure aoe
brave gazelle
but in seriousness, just dslice sim, it’s very accurate for us
What isn't it very accurate for?
halcyon zealot
to be honest i think dslice is accurate for most specs now, it just had a bad wrap in bfa so people tend to stay away from it
idle star
Atm im at 42% crit. If i swap my haste ring to a crit one i only gain 2% crit.
Diminished af
slow marsh
Okay so I see alot of "high" key m+ assass players running vigor for m+ but with...
Mfd is better
They run vigor to guarantee 3x garrote on open though, since you can have issues sometimes if you don't have vig
idle star
Hell i run MA talent in M+ lol
timid cloud
Strange choices.
idle star
Actually i run sub in m+ cos its 10 x easier to play and pumps
slow marsh
Truuuuuu
timid cloud
But I guess if you can do more damage than the % of garrotes that would be replaced by MA, then good for you.
slow marsh
I mean MA is kind of trolling for keys
timid cloud
You can pump on both, just stuff needs to live long enough for sin pump.
I mean yeah.
slow marsh
Either of the other two talents are just better
timid cloud
I feel like each time I take it I grief my overall by like 4K
slow marsh
NS snapshots poison so you can open with fan from stealth and get big value, or open with rup on ST
Or just open with MfD CT
NS is fun imo it gives more options depending on what you need in the moment. Also sims higher in general than subt but that's still arguable
halcyon zealot
i have a warrior tank who constantly bitches at me for garroting mobs on my opener because he wants to spell reflect whatever cast they have, so ive wanted to try the NS build
havent done it yet cuz i like agonizing him tbh
halcyon zealot
can u link the article @obtuse robin
brave gazelle
no loner aoe capped
Aeyo👀
lilac haven
empty pasture
Giga
obtuse robin
such big news my fucking power went out
id figure they wouldnt upcap blade furry ntil balance changes
solemn plaza
obtuse robin
oh no
dawn ivy
that wont be putting night fae anywhere
fathom flax
/s
dawn ivy
if they buffed the ABILITY by 50% maybe
wintry mica
confirmed legion gear drops at current m+ ilvl
wintry mica
nothing
brazen zodiac
:o
wintry mica
you can upgrade stuff with valor to 246 but whispyr already simmed everything at 246
While Legion Timewalking is active, players can speak to Ta’hsup in Oribos to acquire a Timeworn Keystone, allowing access to max-level, Mythic+ difficulty for the 6 Legion dungeons.
Legion Mythic+ dungeons accessed in this way have their own set of affixes, reward loot of the same item level as Shadowlands Mythic+ dungeons, and count toward weekly Great Vault reward options.
Items acquired from Legion Mythic+ dungeons can be upgraded with Valor points, but will not appear in the Great Vault.
obtuse robin
2 min cd reset in raid is actually underratted qol
wintry mica
yea
obtuse robin
best dun set of all time
void pecan
I cna't remember.. if it has any good trinkets
wintry mica
full ash and cinder refund from legendaries
none of the trinkets are worth using over our current best trinkets even when valor upgraded to 246
wintry mica
thats not what Whispyr said last time this was brought up
fathom flax
Yeah if you sim eye with 100% uptime maybe possibly but it’s so easy to drop stacks
brazen zodiac
what's the eye trinket?
dawn ivy
big crit
wintry mica
its in his linked sim
slow marsh
better than ocular gland
wintry mica
its basically old warriors soul but crit instead of haste
dawn ivy
its 10 gems of crit
brazen zodiac
oh i see
obtuse robin
can it drop 252 in vault thoooooooo
wintry mica
nope
dawn ivy
no.
spice spire
@balmy condor you okay king?
brazen zodiac
f
slow marsh
It's +160 crit at 246 as long as you're attacking the same target
wintry mica
so am I crazy or was CT not capped to 8 targets before
obtuse robin
sometimes whispyrs wishes he didnt have eyes
slow marsh
probs not worth anything in multi
halcyon zealot
outlaw rogues down so bad rn
wintry mica
would changing to sqrt scaling potentially make CT worse than before at like 7-8 targets?
wintry mica
can you dm me the simc string for 246 eye?
brazen zodiac
oh boy
wintry mica
i wanna run it against 252 phial and totem
obtuse robin
i just gear compare
wintry mica
ah
slow marsh
trinket1=eye_of_command,id=142167,ilevel=246
balmy condor
9.1.5 PTR THINGS ARE GOING TO BE TESTED AND TUNED SIT TIGHT
Crimson Tempest and Fan of knives uncapped very sick. They now deal REDUCED DAMAGE BEYOND 5 TARGETS. It remains to be seen what the tuning will hold for how this affects our damage. Some notes:
Fok being uncapped means more cp in big aoe, so that's nice. CT uncapped is also a nice change, and you won't have to recast CT in big aoe to get the dot on more things, removing that jank from m+ gameplay. Aside from that, it doesn't really change much gameplay wise. It doesn't make HB better, nor does it make PB better (it was already uncapped, but only wins on 25+ stacked mobs, not worth talking about). If tuning stays as is, a welcome change
balmy condor
**9.1.5 PTR THINGS ARE GOING TO BE TESTED AND TUNED SIT TIGHT**
Crimson Tempest ...
stop fucking simming EoC you degenerates
obtuse robin
lmao
slow marsh
i mean if its good its good right
fleet anchor
I'm honestly a little confused by this change because like
fathom flax
theres like 2.5 raid bosses that you wont change targets on
tarragrue nerzhul and guardian
fleet anchor
At 5-8 targets I guess this is a nerf? 😛
balmy condor
At 5-8 targets I guess this is a nerf? 😛
yeh idk
wintry mica
it should be
balmy condor
I see some abilities in there capped at 6 and 8 as well
slow marsh
I think the intention is that its still normal up to whatever the cap was previously, so 8 for us
wintry mica
ct was 8 right?
balmy condor
yes
wintry mica
it sounds like all are now 5 with sqrt
wintry mica
The following area-of-affect abilities are no longer maximum target capped and instead deal reduced damage beyond 5 targets: (These features will be available in a later PTR build)
fleet anchor
Septic Shock change is ok but I'd honestly like them to redesign Septic Shock
because it doesn't scale with Haste
balmy condor
yeah but we don't know if its square root
fathom flax
so normal damage upto 5 then reduced past
balmy condor
we don't know how they're reducing
winged kindle
I’m less worried about the CT change and more pumped about increased FoK consistency on big pulls with more chances for CP generation
balmy condor
like usual
slow marsh
septic is booty cuz the stealth ability is useless for sin and largely for sub
untold nest
Will CT dot get reduced tho or only initial dmg
balmy condor
Will CT dot get reduced tho or only initial dmg
both most likely
wintry mica
i think every other ability with that "reduced damage beyond x targets" is sqrt scaling but maybe not
slow marsh
yeah the fok cp gen being higher is the best part imo
only having to CT once is nice too
brazen zodiac
what does sqrt mean?
wintry mica
square root scaling
brazen zodiac
i'd ask what that means too but i'll leave that part to the math people >.<
wintry mica
the damage on secondary targets will scale by a factor of 1/sqrt(target#) but hit every target.
slow marsh
I would expect a good amount of tweaks from this original post before it hits live as well. Just be excited they are changing it, dont worry about the exacts
wintry mica
is at least currently how sqrt scaling works
im super happy for the changes though
just sad no venth buff 
brazen zodiac
u dont need anymore l's
actually i need 20.3 more to sleep peacefully tonight
obtuse robin
yea despite the whats going on 9.1.5 is looking to be the greatest patch of all time
drowsy hollow
I'm gonna assume everything uncapped is square root scaling
wintry mica
im just glad we are getting all this QOL end of expack fixing shit that they usually reserve for like patch .3
drowsy hollow
Since they said individual hits will go down as you add targets
Watch uncapped fok somehow make master poisoner good haha
wintry mica
thats how i read the blue post is that they all get sqrt scaling after 5 targets
slow marsh
Watch uncapped fok somehow make master poisoner good haha
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If MP affected bleeds and poisons it would be pog tho
wintry mica
mastery stacking when?
drowsy hollow
I mean the biggest advantage to uncapped fok will be that we get poisons on everyone and they won't be scaled down
wintry mica
nah
slow marsh
I do see value of NS going through the roof tho opening with Fok from stealth with a giant pull
wintry mica
CP generation
zinc frost
Actually thought blizzard were going to die on their capped aoe hill but good to be proven wrong
wintry mica
I thought it was a next expack type of thing
drowsy hollow
To be fair, everything having square root scaling doesn't suddenly enable massive pulls
wintry mica
but i guess they dont want legion timewalking to feel bad
slow marsh
I mean it kind of does as much as the tank and heals can handle anyways
that was the best part of DH is eyebeam in big pulls
drowsy hollow
If adding 3 mobs to a 6 mob pull adds 10% damage done but increases tank damage taken by 50%
scarlet warren
I’m less worried about the CT change and more pumped about increased FoK consist...
what is fok
NEVER MIND
LMAO MY BRAIN RN
🥜
balmy condor
winged kindle
Haha all good, the news is pretty thrilling!
ivory hinge
lol
arctic hare
So the bleed will hit all targets? thats amazing and kinda scary to think about
balmy condor
So the bleed will hit all targets? thats amazing and kinda scary to think about
yeah just like they did before 9.0 for the last 15 years
arctic hare
Epic
arctic hare
Lol
fleet anchor
both most likely
Dunno if they even have a good way of doing that tbh
of scaling the DoT
oak sky
are there a bunch of doomers in outlaw rn
halcyon zealot
the outlaw main in my guild is down catastrophically atm
arctic hare
I just realized, black powder is going to go crazy
wintry mica
i wouldnt be freaking out until we actually find out how the scaling works
kind talon
<@!170031192400199681> share your thoughts
The ppl who made this patch are fucking baboons
Fucking unreal
balmy condor
Dunno if they even have a good way of doing that tbh
unlucky
I can't wait for the jank
wintry mica
i meant this could be a nerf to sin on 5-8 targets if it is just sqrt scaling past 5
scarlet warren
The ppl who made this patch are fucking baboons
bro chill its the 1st patch notes
scarlet warren
i mean as long they add blade flurry to the list before patch goes live its fine
im personally not stressing about it at all
oak sky
theres like a month left of changes tbh
scarlet warren
yeah probably more than that honestly
scarlet warren
yikes it is
scarlet warren
literal dead spec if they dont uncap
oak sky
with a full target cap
iron halo
with the new tempest uncap. is it the bleed or the initial dmg reduced?
scarlet warren
it think both?
wintry mica
we dont know for sure but it is probably both
misty holly
Hopefully they do a balance pass for uncapped aoe. If they just add it in with no other changes I feel like some classes are going to be so far ahead that others will be unplayable in M+
scarlet warren
well originally CT was capped to 8 targets, so im guessing after 8 scaling hits in for both hits
misty holly
Not sure which side of that rogues are on, but I don't feel too confident.
wintry mica
the post says all of the abilities now have scaling after 5
iron halo
well outlaw is truly deserted
drowsy parcel
its probably a sweeping number just made easier for the post
sub and assa probably still goes up to 8?
a lot of probablys here
just wait for ptr and see
wintry mica
i doubt they would say the following abilities all have reduced damage past 5 targets
if half them were actually 8 targets
scarlet warren
well outlaw is truly deserted
thats if JPC and a bunch of other rogue players dont write a tweet in all caps @ing ybarra saying "wHy iS oUtlAw sTiLL cAppEd aT 5 tArGets"
iron halo
isnt jpc shammy now
scarlet warren
no is still plays rogue afaik
iron halo
he retweeded max bitching but hasnt tweeted yet
oak sky
are there any classes off the list that are capped besides outlaw
wintry mica
if its an upgrade why does it matter if you lost crit
prisma cypress
because it would be so much better if it had crit
i'm down to 30%
i'm getting better gear but my dps is hardly going up because it all has the wrong stats
solid mica
my buddy has been consistently getting like 10-20% crit on winds when he has over 40% is there anything he could be messing up that would not be rng based?
wintry mica
yea just crit more
solid mica
lol
wintry mica
obtuse robin
also the list of legion m+ is it only those specific dun's
solid mica
i'll tell em get gud bucco
wintry mica
yea looks liek it
iron halo
no maw of souls 
wintry mica
are there any classes off the list that are capped besides outlaw
someone said enh sham earlier but i dont know their abilities
oak sky
hmmm
wintry mica
was flamestrike already uncapped for fire?
wintry mica
lol
wintry mica
sv hunter
wintry mica
they are "uncapped" but actually that usually means hard cap at 20
wintry mica
yea will be interesting to see how things look once the aoe changes go to ptr
oak sky
im subbed out for painsmith rn
i got in like 3 pulls last night on their reclear but i dont get to kill it until at least next week
:/
wild beacon
man if carve still reduces cd of wildfire by 1 sec per target
It does
wintry mica
i think carve specifies that you can only get the reduction from 5 people but not sure
i can log onto my sv hunter in a sec and check
wild beacon
But they'll fuck it up somehow
wintry mica
i mean that would 100% make sv the best m+ class
drowsy parcel
"each target hit, up to 5."
oak sky
year of the spear baby
wintry mica
yea thats what i thought
normal plaza
hey all O/, there is some kind of tip to make proc the shards winds of winter (frost), or just only stack % crit.
burnt star
fan of knife uncap 😉 even with lower damage,
a crit is a crit
max cp every fok will kinda be nice
ebon notch
@balmy condor wait but if CT is 8 target capped does that mean it does reduced damage beyond the 8th target or
oak sky
sold a mythic boe for 500k
ebon notch
is it uncapped but reduced damage after the 5th
slow marsh
<@!167090536602140682> wait but if CT is 8 target capped does that mean it does ...
nobody knows yet wait for ptr to come out and for them to change it 10 times
ebon notch
very pog
final sky
what's the rough difference between frost and blood shards?
oak sky
removing the aoe cap in the current state is gonna just take some testing
im sure theyll figure it out
including giving outlaw BF
slow marsh
yeah surely they wont just leave outlaw in the dust
misty holly
they won't
Said the sub rogues during 8.1 ptr
arctic hare
WHoo hoo Legendary REfunds!
drowsy hollow
So, EVERY melee in the game is gonna be going after the CoS ring eh?
oak sky
when every class that doesnt already have something is getting it
then they leave out 1 or 2 classes
drowsy hollow
Too many bad memories of outlaw being the kings of BfA
strange python
then they leave out 1 or 2 classes
is it even 1 or 2
I think it's just outlaw untouched
oak sky
well what other classes didnt get hit
the uncapped guys didnt
then
is enhance
capped?
strange python
enhance got unchanged but it was uncapped
oak sky
or destro?
oak sky
the ones that don't have big changes are fire mage affi boomie and ele
but thats like
not important
strange python
those are the uncapped classes that caused the problem in the first place
strange python
well part of the problem, the rest is just that uncapped isn't very fun
oak sky
in 9.1.5
strange python
no not really
strange python
I just mean't that a few classes being giga uncapped while the rest are hard capped was a strange design choice
and yeah, I agree
oak sky
blade rush is clearly not enough
theres supposed to be talent and ability tuning so if that isnt only the aoe cap then outlaw might get something there instead of getting BF uncapped
strange python
I would say maybe they're trying to redesign some things but that seems unlikely for a .5 patch right?
oak sky
who knows
this is a massive QOL patch atm
what problems is shadowlands gonna have left?
like
having 9 dungeons
i guess
hollow escarp
what problems is shadowlands gonna have left?
casual mmo content
strange python
maybe I'll start playing assa in keys after 9.1 anyway, never felt the desire to touch it at all before
oak sky
can't hurt to try
I'm planning on playing some outlaw
once i can have easy access to necro
hollow escarp
assa necro is also great in m+ rn
oak sky
am i necro rn?
strange python
how many garrotes and ruptures would you maintain on a large pull anyway?
oak sky
all of them
strange python
slow marsh
5 total
oak sky
with prio damage its 5
slow marsh
then you're energy capped
oak sky
in aoe its as many as possible
sand sigil
more than last time - greg
hollow escarp
how many garrotes and ruptures would you maintain on a large pull anyway?
after 5 bleeds up, you are gcd capped from the energy gains so you can have fun 🙂
strange python
hmm
oak sky
read the guide or ask whispyr or ceverion
strange python
you've gotta target swap to apply the bleeds right?
oak sky
its as many as possible
strange python
I heard somewhere that you did
sand sigil
u do more than 5 in aoe
oak sky
or ask
sand sigil
5 is only if u care about prio dam
oak sky
an mdi player
strange python
because I wanted to just mouseover macro lol
burnt star
having 9 dungeons
legion timewalking m+ giving same ilvl then shadowland m+, so we have more dungeon!
oak sky
yeah mouseover is ok in aoe
strange python
oh really
burnt star
they also count toward vault
strange python
interesting I guess
hollow escarp
tab targetting is fine
strange python
I'm used to scroll wheel targetting
oak sky
or you can macro startattack i guess
strange python
macro startattack would mean you're aa'ing without it targetted right or
oak sky
think so
strange python
would it switch your target to that mob?
oak sky
i enjoy the micromanagey shit
strange python
but I think Ima make a mouseover garrote and rupture macro that targets the mouseover
hollow escarp
I feel like tab targetting is safer than accidentally applying a bleed outside pandemic on a target that already has it
strange python
just seems more fun I think
idk I feel like I'm pretty used to mouseovers
after playing necro outlaw in 9.0 lol
hollow escarp
I apply sbs with tab targeting
strange python
that just sounds painful
hollow escarp
only mouseover sbs if the mob is out of melee range
but it's a matter of preference I guess
strange python
I still don't get why the necro bleed doesn't count towards venomous wounds
but like
that would be fun
so no way
hollow escarp
mastery affects sbs already
strange python
oh well that's good at least
balmy condor
I still don't get why the necro bleed doesn't count towards venomous wounds
cause it would have to heal the boss in order to not be the go to covenant
oak sky
poggy
still elm
shadowstepping the md on remnant is rough
wintry mica
do you have the cast bar weak aura
hollow escarp
shadowstepping the md on remnant is rough
do you have the MD weakaura?
still elm
no
wintry mica
thats why
hollow escarp
use it
idle star
Why woukd i spread bleeds as assa when i can crit 4k+ black powders aoe style
zinc frost
Why woukd i spread bleeds as assa when i can crit 4k+ black powders aoe style
Cause we enjoy being sin rogues?
hollow escarp
because you get to press more than 2 buttons
wintry mica
yea we spam fan and rupture instead of fan and bp
dark token
I feel like tab targetting is safer than accidentally applying a bleed outside p...
yes in mass aoe, no for 2-3t
strange python
is there another reason you keep bleeds up in aoe outside of energy regen
hollow escarp
damage
idle star
LOL
idle star
Is there a reason we attack things with our daggers? Feels..odd
strange python
LOL
it's wasn't necessarily apparent that you get more dmg out of spending gcds on maintaining bleeds instead of just spamming fan
balmy condor
fan does 0 damage
hollow escarp
now 
strange python
over and over
civic trellis
WIth no prio target, just rupture everything right?
balmy condor
correct
civic trellis
Fan to build cp / refresh poisons iirc
strange python
it just feels weird doing so much dmg on 5t by just keeping ct, rupture and garrote up
gusty mirage
it's more dmg to keep 5?
no it's not
static glacier
is it much different to BfA dungeons?
zinc frost
Less burst than bfa
dark token
yes because bfa dungeons were all about shrouded
static glacier
I meant it
as a
rhetorical question
to show that we did decent dmg to 5 targets before anyway
rip SS. not a day passes that I don't miss it.
dark token
sin actually had one of the best mass aoe in the game when the conduit was added for fok
hollow escarp
echoing blades 
dark token
civic trellis
dude that fucking dungeon
dark token
zinc frost
Miss that gun shot sound from EB
static glacier
can you imagine
dark token
this was when good end of dungeon dps was 30k btw
dark token
winds is capped sadly
static glacier
sadge
dark token
they really should have made echoing blades and shrouded suffication legendaries
rather than random shit we got
who wanted this
strange python
do you ever go over 5 rupture/garrotes in aoe or?
gusty mirage
https://i.imgur.com/0aKCB6v.png
zinc frost
At least doing prio damage doesn’t suck for sin, can just send bleeds and focus a mob. Doesn’t gimp AoE too much
slow marsh
that's why sin cleave funnel is nice
strange python
it doesn't suck for sin like it does for sub but
it's not outlaw
but the 2/3t shit on sin is rly cool
feel like I need to start tracking enemy damage taken to play sin, just to see how much I'm actually funnelling?
zinc frost
Yeah I love theatre for that reason, feels so good for sin
hollow river
aoe cap removed?
zinc frost
Most removed, just waiting on how the tuning is for the reduced damage on 5 + targets. Nothing for outlaw yet..
hollow river
yeah i saw that
im sure it will be removed the same
they will be completely irrelevant if not, unless the tuning is just trash
fathom flax
they really should have made echoing blades and shrouded suffication legendaries
100%, shrouded suffocation bae
burnt star
still hoping for ct baseline rework
but eh
that would be tooo fun
having our only aoe finisher not a talent
slow marsh
I mean true CT baseline would be nice
dark token
CT and alacrity baseline add 2 new talents
loud trench
did they change anything with shadowstepping on ner"zhul
dark token
did they change anything with shadowstepping on ner"zhul
no
just step to boss and use mass dispel weakaura
burnt star
CT and alacrity baseline add 2 new talents
then we play exanguinate and press ct on s.t ?
loud trench
basically every week i have been shadowstepping right at the timer but this week when i did it at the sajme time the mass disepll was not going out
dark token
i mean exang is a better gameplay loop
burnt star
true
anyways
they are heading is the right direction
we can only wait
9.2 might be awesome
loud trench
just step to boss and use mass dispel weakaura
yea i have been, every week, but the MD is going out I just am not getting the dispell and basically shadowstepping right back into the group with the bomb still
WCL shows its gone out
and the other person was MD'd
dark token
i wait till im knocked back anyway
loud trench
i mean i position my character sideways so i can step to it and never had an issue idk what was going on this week
lean fossil
@balmy condor so just to make sure im reading these patch notes correctly, they are going to take ct and make it do full dmg to 5 targets and then just remove the target cap but target 6 and above would be reduced dmg right?
lean fossil
and i just saw the pin lol
burnt star
are they gonna lower the bleed
tiny saddle
That would suck
fiery mauve
i assume the inital damage from CT is reduced idk why the dot would be reduced its a dot
lunar otter
it says CT will do the same thing it does now but when u go over the current cap the extra mobs get a lesser CT
oak sky
guardian down boys
spice spire
W
bleak spoke
ct baseline and put shrouded in the slot would be ideal
fiery mauve
it says CT will do the same thing it does now but when u go over the current cap...
wat
lunar otter
wut
fiery mauve
where it say its getting a lesser ct
well, the initial hit should be lesser
i cant see the dot being effected by the cap
oak sky
@balmy condor u think ct or pb for fate?
lunar otter
why would it be lesser?
fiery mauve
because its soft capped
lunar otter
on the initial
fiery mauve
it will hit everything
but will be reduced pasr 5
past*
so the initial hit should be reduced damage to 6 or more targets
but the dot should be full damage
lunar otter
no
bleak spoke
the initial hit might be less but unless the bleed's a different id it should be fine
lunar otter
all im rewading is reduced damage oiver 5
lunar otter
other wise its a nerf on small packs?
fiery mauve
lunar otter
yes i know.
lunar otter
what u linked says only reduced over 5?
fiery mauve
yeah that was from patch notes so thats prob unintended
lunar otter
i dont think so
fathom flax
Hey fuck EOC trinket but what about the auto attack ring
fiery mauve
and if it is intended
fathom flax
Crit/haste and the buff
fiery mauve
the damage from dot will still hit everything
lunar otter
and what im saying is
lunar otter
yep
lunar otter
no where all i said is what u posted
fathom flax
How would you tell if a sim was broken? The CoS ring with 10% AA damage and almost identical stats to my 246 bloodoath is simming less
With the same stat budget / free effect
fathom flax
And there’s no way to turn it on until the patch I guess
drowsy hollow
I'm assuming it'll work at 60 once it's timewalking
echo geyser
so i heard doomblade > dashing on sylv as necro is that true?
if so whats the reasoning
drifting cloud
dashing just isnt as good for necro as it is for venthyr
so since alot of assa rogues already have 262 db, theres no point crafting 262 dashing if youre necro @echo geyser
its like margin error for necro
fallen arch
Also, necro with db favors ep/vig over bs/ds for me on singl le target
echo geyser
i was just thinking maybe dashing feels better to play cause more energy?
or maybe isnt noticable
also wouldnt dashing be better on situations with more cleave/aoe compared to db?
fallen arch
Don’t really think so, but maybe someone else can confirm
echo geyser
idk if thats relevant on any boss
echo geyser
that sounds like another vigor
fathom flax
I think it was 5k from bleeds then 700 from dashing
That is completely anecdotal evidence******
echo geyser
actually nvm about the aoe/cleave argument
they both require u to cast envenom i didnt see dashing
the crit for energy is passive tho right?
or is that also just while envenom buff is active
echo geyser
ah ok
echo geyser
@hollow escarp what lego do u play as necro?
sharp stump
How much crit are you guys rocking to make dashing worthwhile? My doomblade Is still simming higher by like 150 with rank 5 frost
hollow river
How much crit are you guys rocking to make dashing worthwhile? My doomblade Is s...
Are you necro?
echo geyser
i guess also db gains value on necro with sbs counting for another envenom buff
drifting cloud
Probably necro comparing 262 to 235 lego xd
hollow river
Even 262 vs 262 necro favors doomblade
echo geyser
idk if my stats are fucked
i know my weps arent good for sin at least
p much margin of error between db and dashing
hollow river
Ye
halcyon tapir
Dashing is <.1% ahead as necro for me with 42%/22%/16%/8%
hollow river
But for most it’s hard to get dashing to actually pull ahead
echo geyser
im just wondering if in cleave ish scenarios dashing is just tiny bit better
cause u might not always have sbs up on all targets in aoe right
hollow river
Doomblade wins in cleave apparently
echo geyser
db is counting the target u envenom right?
hollow river
Mutilate
echo geyser
ah right its mutilate + envenom buffed
hollow river
Check whispyr’s sim sheet
sharp stump
Are you necro?
I'm venthyr as it stands
hollow river
If Venthyr then dashing should pull ahead
echo geyser
and more fok
sharp stump
Yeah mine's 150dps behind with sims atm, wondering what people's crit is like at the point where it does start to pull ahead.
hollow river
Whispyr said DB wins in up to 4 targets basically iirc
Check the sheet I think link is in faq
Right under the covenant suggestions there’s a tinyurl
halcyon tapir
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a7cWjJ8CB8NqaRp4GP3JV
42%/22%/16%/8%
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/unG37nBnhHiJobgmFA2FfR
45%/19%/18%/5%
Within 1%
halcyon tapir
I prefer dashing tbh
fathom flax
Like you can’t stuff it up envenoming a target without full bleeds like you can with db
halcyon tapir
Playing dashing subconsciously gives me better envenom uptime 😄
echo geyser
ive been seeing lots of ppl run ocular gland now
fathom flax
Big trinket, lotta stats
idle star
Dashing gives envenom 15% higher crit chamce
storm hedge
I'm currently simming higher with unholy set + doomblade as venthyr. I expect that with more crit, I would sim better with frost?
balmy condor
yeah probably
hearty dock
im actually on 39% crit, how far i can go with crit till its getting weaker?
storm hedge
Is there an estimate for crit chance where frost becomes better? I'm at 31% rn.
balmy condor
usually people get around 40-45%
idk when it's better
it's all super gear dependent and stuff
storm hedge
Im glad that investing in rank 5 unholy wasn't a waste. Feels great to have options. We got pretty lucky in that regard as rogues (all specs covenants viable etc.)
fiery mauve
who's gonna sim all legion dungeons in 246
you are
ebon thorn
you're asking way too much of me
wintry mica
iirc whispyr already simmed all the trinkets at 246 and they dont beat our current best trinkets like phial totem or amp
hollow river
oh jesus they're actually doing it
wintry mica
and there isnt really any gear other than trinkets thats going to matter
wintry mica
no
eye is a dungeon trinket
its the crit one that people wont shut up about
i wish we could get legion raid trinkets
hollow river
legendary scraping poggers
wintry mica
umbral moonglaives
hollow river
never have to do tg again i hope
wintry mica
i miss you
hollow river
oh but u still have to buy the base item
wintry mica
I assume you lose the crafted base
hollow river
again
hollow river
toxic
wintry mica
otherwise you just keep swapping our 262 cloak to whatever you want to use
hollow river
was gonna do dashing for raid nights
and celerity for the rest of the week
or obedience
wintry mica
i mean by the time 9.1.5 comes out you should have like 3-4 262s worht of cinders
wintry mica
I dont even do layer 12 each week and i almost have a second
hollow river
i have dashing 262 and like 400 cinders
wintry mica
I think I skipped a week or two
hollow river
i skipped multiple
4-5 maybe even 6 lmao
ive started going again since i joined a bit more serious guild
wintry mica
yea you still get like 150 a week just from assault and tormentors
hollow river
need to start farming korthia again
wintry mica
same
I only do korthia dailies on like tuesday to finish the stupid weekly renown
then skip it the rest of the week
I feel like they need to do something to switch up the next patch area so it isnt just daily quests with rares
but thats kinda their go to
hollow river
yeah kinda doubt they change that
drowsy hollow
I honestly prefer torghast to korthia
I get my weekly conduit and soon I'll just use cinders for sockets
patent canopy
U doing solo adamant vaults?
wintry mica
Yea I enjoy torg a lot more when I’m not running later 12
I’d rather do like 10 and just murder everything easily
patent canopy
Still getting conduits from 10 vaults?
ebon thorn
Time to scrap my doomblade and MA 
wintry mica
But you also get flawless every run
patent canopy
Just without epic pawah ye?
drifting cloud
Theres no ukara in dungeon pool
hollow river
Why not
ebon thorn
wait upper kara isnt in pool?
hollow river
Ha
wintry mica
Yea lol