assassination

[strange python]

Have the screenies from RL

[rocky pecan]

Like I said before tho

[karmic crystal]

U suck uwutang noober

[limber lion]

:D maybe, sounds like it's just on the very edge before it turns into a full flame-fest though so I'd rather not deal with that.

[verbal mantle]

[strange python]

"I can play outlaw"

[slow marsh]

LMAO

[rocky pecan]

I'm done with that

[limber lion]

Alright boys, I'm cutting it here.

[potent dagger]

Outch

[slow marsh]

Instant classic

[limber lion]

No more.

If you want to continue, take it to dms.

[strange python]

I'm done dw, but he shouldn't ping me at random about something that's a week old

[limber lion]

Feel free to contact me if you feel offended by me cutting the flame-festival short.

[rocky pecan]

At a time the conversation was interesting but it's juste going into full trolling

[limber lion]

So, any assa gamers in the chat?

[potent dagger]

Yeah sure ^^

[limber lion]

R5 frost on Wednesday, can't wait

[stuck knoll]

I played it once in bod

[harsh lantern]

Same

[stuck knoll]

does that count Cev

[harsh lantern]

r5 frost huge

[potent dagger]

will be next week for me T_T

[slow marsh]

Same r5 next week gonna be nice

[gusty mirage]

[slow marsh]

This week *

[polar matrix]

how bad were the frost nerfs btw?

[limber lion]

If me progressing SLG on Outlaw makes me an Outlaw gamer, then sure!

[slow marsh]

Not bad for us and it wasn't a nerf

[stuck knoll]

[slow marsh]

Stop watching infexious

[limber lion]

There hasn't been any frost nerfs

[stuck knoll]

actually wait

The only time I played sin on prog was cruicible

[cerulean nest]

dont tell me there's a nerf lol already two weeks behind catching up on frost

my heart

[stuck knoll]

and I just said fuck this I'm going outlaw about 5 pulls in

[limber lion]

I missed crucible completely :( it seemed like an awful fight ngl

[gusty mirage]

such a shit raid

[stuck knoll]

I only did cabal mythic

[limber lion]

or well, Uu'nat in particular

Ah fair enough

[polar matrix]

was it a nerf for outlaw @limber lion

[stuck knoll]

cuz it nearly esploded the guild

there was a big argument involving dps buff

[limber lion]

It has not been touched whatsoever for any spec or anything.

The sims were just oversimming, that's all.

[stuck knoll]

and our spriest suiciding cuz he got dispelled

[limber lion]

Nothing has changed in-game.

[gusty mirage]

I did it on normal then took a break until EP came out

I was like nope

[limber lion]

oh no

[gusty mirage]

not today satan

[polar matrix]

oh i heard something about reducing frost proc dmg with ghostly strike or something like that

[limber lion]

Are you still raiding with the same guild?

[stuck knoll]

Yeaaah

no

This was RN

[limber lion]

Ah okay, did it die soon after or

Ah right

[stuck knoll]

It died onnnnn

Azshara

then got reborn next tier

[slow marsh]

It's not nerfed. Ghostly was incorrectly increasing frost dam on sims

[limber lion]

Yeh, a lot of guilds died on TEP

I progressed it with 2 guilds and they both disbanded.

Other one during Orgozoa, second one during Za'qul

Never killed Azshara :(

[karmic crystal]

Ceverion guild killer

Confirmed

[limber lion]

Oh no

Method about to get destroyed

[stuck knoll]

I enjoyed it cuz I actually played the tier the most probably

[spice spire]

Unluckers

[stuck knoll]

I just couldn't stand Azshara

as a fight

[karmic crystal]

Method was already destroyed

[stuck knoll]

so quit the game

[subtle tundra]

joined a guild with CE last week of tier and got it 🙂

[limber lion]

Yeah, I enjoyed TEP as well honestly, the raiding environment in the guild was just super awful so it wasn't fun

[delicate bone]

i wish you could legit report channels for false information

[limber lion]

The tier in itself was great though imo

[gusty mirage]

still counts

[limber lion]

Queen's Court was non-ironically a really, really fun assa fight

Like one of the most fun fights in a while.

[stuck knoll]

7/8 bosses were quite fun

[polar matrix]

ok my bad so it was just a desync between sims and actual gameplay @slow marsh ? the actual in game values just correctly presented now?

[slow marsh]

Yeah same. It's pretty bad for sure

[gusty mirage]

yea

[slow marsh]

Correct

[stuck knoll]

I did Queens Court as outlaw

[limber lion]

Glad I didn't have to prog Azshara

ouch

[stuck knoll]

Was like

20th to kill or some shit was a big meme at the time

cuz Zine got benched

[limber lion]

[polar matrix]

my bad then had wrong info

so for pani

soz*

[slow marsh]

Wait so is method my new favorite guild cuz daddy Cev ?

[stuck knoll]

it's fine

Certain streamers

had it in their titles

[gusty mirage]

you can say the name

its okay

[stuck knoll]

that it got nerfed

[limber lion]

I need to start practicing my outlaw just in case it's gonna skyrocket to new heights in 9.2

[limber lion]

😊

[spice spire]

I hate this entire post. But yes - Cev is a method gamer

[gusty mirage]

Cev's my favorite guild

[spice spire]

Until it dies

[gusty mirage]

I don't cheer on guilds, I cheer on one man

[spice spire]

True

[gusty mirage]

who may or may not be part robot

[slow marsh]

Yeah cyborg at a minimum for sure

[limber lion]

Fingers crossed rogue does well in 9.2 so I actually get to play the game.

[spice spire]

Claims he’s built diff but standard robot

[limber lion]

Assa bis rogue spec in 9.2

[gusty mirage]

[slow marsh]

Never know

[gusty mirage]

considering how much review rogue gets

eeeeeeeh

[spice spire]

Need more buffs to scale

[gusty mirage]

you kinda know

[slow marsh]

What kind of BP next tier will do for us

[gusty mirage]

its okay guys

tier sets coming soon

that'll fix thing

s

[slow marsh]

No way rogue gets nerfed cuz we are Perma ignored

[gusty mirage]

we only get pvp nerfed

[strange python]

??? Entirety of sl beta disagrees with that

[gusty mirage]

cuz people qq about dying to the invisible boogieman

[slow marsh]

Wait we aren't still in beta rn ?

[strange python]

Kek

[stuck knoll]

if you need a phial funneller I got you

[strange python]

Sbs works finally, sort of, so we out?

[gusty mirage]

wdym I was told 9.1 was a fully polished patch when it came out

[limber lion]

[gusty mirage]

nevermind that SBS was borked, ER didn't even work

"polished"

[strange python]

I stand by subt being confused for the spec not talent. It's 9 am no coffee and I didn't realize not taking subterfuge was an option. And I'm dumb. Couldn't play demo for a reason.

[hollow river]

Actually toxic bud

[slow marsh]

Speaking of ER I need to get a sim of theotar with only 20% umbrella uptime and haste or crit buffs only

[strange python]

don't ping me at random in the spec channel of a spec I don't play bringing up a week-old argument then?

[gusty mirage]

Ah yes, echoing reprimand also reminds me of theotar

@slow marsh I miss your Archer pfp

[potent dagger]

Please don't bring this up to the table again -_-

[slow marsh]

No it's because I'm trying to see if I want to go kyrian

[potent dagger]

Assa Kyrian ? oo

[slow marsh]

You mean peter parker 😂

[strange python]

God no

[gusty mirage]

yes

[strange python]

If envenoms actual damage wasn't so bad maybe, but it would feel better than sub kyrian with shadow tech ffs

[limber lion]

I'm glad Kyrian is bad

[strange python]

Even with a decent timer and intuition on it, feels like garbage to lose the finisher to a shadow tech proc

[limber lion]

I'm not the biggest fan of the owl nor the covenant ability

[potent dagger]

Venthyr feel so good to me 😄

[strange python]

I want soulshape :(

[gusty mirage]

Cev hates blue combo points, confirmed

you all heard it here

[limber lion]

:()

[potent dagger]

it's beacause they are blue ?

[strange python]

Cev are you playing ep vigor on mythic on all fights? Even shit like guardian?

[potent dagger]

Are your bluecist ?

[spice spire]

Owl good

[gusty mirage]

I think its just cause ER sucks balls

[spice spire]

ER very bad

All my homies hate ER

[gusty mirage]

yoo-hoo thats a bad take

[strange python]

Id rather play er than owl.

[slow marsh]

Kleia is actually better than bonersmith

[potent dagger]

Kyrian potion is good to bypass certain mechanics tough

[spice spire]

Owl so good for cheesing though

[strange python]

Er+soulshape would be better than flag+owl. Feels wise.

Fuck owl

[spice spire]

Wait

Does it take a potion spot

?

[strange python]

No

[spice spire]

Oh owl fine then

[strange python]

Owl obnoxious

[spice spire]

Lemme just play the flute damn

[limber lion]

Guardian is the only one where I might change. But then again my best parse on heroic Guardian was with EP/Vig. I'll definitely use BS/DS with Dashing on our mythic reclear today and we'll see how it does.

[strange python]

Flute toy?

[spice spire]

Nah you can make the owl play a song

[strange python]

Spotify?

[limber lion]

I've only killed Guardian like twice on Mythic thus far, so I'm not entirely sure what's best. But BS/DS with Dashing definitely makes the most sense.

[slow marsh]

I regularly get 28 stacks of flag with BS procs

Idk I've never really had issues running bs Ds outside of obvious add fights

[potent dagger]

Since it's meant to accelerate the cycle , i'm not surprised

but it feel so sluggish :/

[slow marsh]

It feels more weird to me playing with 5cp now vs 6

If you don't get procs it's for sure feels bad

[potent dagger]

and i've the feeling that it kills my burst

[limber lion]

I just wdon'

oops

I just don't like how BS screws with pooling rules.

[slow marsh]

I'm just more of an rng guy if the % is favorable at all

[strange python]

Pooling is the most fun part of sin :/

[limber lion]

If you follow normal pooling rules and then get a proc with Blindside, you're bound to cap energy slightly

So you gotta play a bit around it

It's not too bad honestly but idk

[slow marsh]

Yeah but it does end up playing faster in general

[strange python]

Hitting 4 CP during a flag window feels atrocious

With ds

[limber lion]

I don't care about faster or slower gameplay personally.

I just play whatever does more dps for me.

[strange python]

Theoretically the play is faster with less cp and more energy though, to ice's question

[slow marsh]

Not when flag exists

[limber lion]

BS/DS is actually higher APM than EP/Vig

[strange python]

Can't imagine BS offsets that except maybe under 30%

[limber lion]

You can sim it yourself and go look at the apm

[slow marsh]

I forget what whisp said it came out to be but it's pretty decent increase in apm

[limber lion]

It's like 1-3 APM higher with BS

[potent dagger]

BS would be bis if procced ambush were out of GCD

[limber lion]

Probably even more with Dashing

[slow marsh]

It is more with dashing

Dashing increases value of bs DS more than doomblade

[strange python]

Maybe I'm smoothbrain but sin feels faster or slower to me based on how many finishers I get out, not relatively minor changes in overall apm.

[slow marsh]

I mean yeah but more cp is more finishers

Moreso than more energy

Hence why we stack crit over haste

Even before frost

[strange python]

Are you hitting envenom more with bsds than EP vigor? That seems intuitively wrong to me but I haven't checked the facts

[lavish lichen]

Dumb question I’m a bit confused by the concept of pooling, what exactly do I do during that time? Just afk?

[strange python]

Make sure you're behind the boss and auto attacking, but yeah basically.

Assuming you have max CP and low energy

[lavish lichen]

Started trying out assa and ideally I have 5 CP going into shiv with full energy (ive heard having full CPs isnt a huge deal)

[narrow ravine]

sorta just slow your roll, I set a shiv timer on my energy bar, sends me a sound when I should start pooling and what energy I want to be at when shiv comes off cooldown

[lavish lichen]

What energy do you want to be at for shiv?

[strange python]

I am actually curious if it's better to pool at 5 and env>shiv, or pool at 3 and shiv>env

[slow marsh]

All that being said if you are new to sin I wouldn't bother with pooling. It's a minor dps increase and you have like 4 other things to prio learning before pooling imo

[lavish lichen]

Yep I have that question too

[strange python]

Gut says latter. But I wouldn't trust my own gut.

[narrow ravine]

pool to 4/5 cp, shiv, env, try and get 3 env in the window is what I have been doing

[strange python]

That runs the risk of overcapping CP

I would imagine you want 1 less

[lavish lichen]

If you pull to 4/5 yoy envenom first then shiv?

[slow marsh]

You don't care about overcap with shiv

[narrow ravine]

if you get to 4 hold at 4 if you happen to get to 5, ignore the cp from shiv

[lavish lichen]

So you def always envenom AFTER shiv

[willow osprey]

Does anyone know Necrolord assa stat prio for raid?

[lavish lichen]

Regardless of CPs?

[narrow ravine]

if you are waiting for a long time or capping energy before shiv is off cooldown, you are pooling too early

[slow marsh]

Yes but never hold shiv

[lavish lichen]

Yea makes sense

[slow marsh]

So if shiv is up you press regardless of cp

[strange python]

And try your best to not have to garrote or rupture in shiv window

[lavish lichen]

Right but if you are prepping it

[potent dagger]

@limber lion DS or Vig for Mm+ ?

[narrow ravine]

ABS, always be shivvin'

[limber lion]

Like I said

[slow marsh]

Ideally you shiv into envenom but it's not a big deal

[limber lion]

Always Vigor.

[lavish lichen]

I assume its better to get to 3 CPs no?

[potent dagger]

K thanks 😉

[lavish lichen]

Or again doesn’t matter there?

[slow marsh]

As long as you're not overcapping energy sure

[limber lion]

Incorrect.

You follow the normal cp rules.

You always finish at max-1 or max, EXCEPT for the very first Slice n Dice cast.

If you know your Shiv is coming off cooldown, you should be building to 3 ideally and then use Shiv right when it comes off cooldown and Envenom after

If this does not happen and you have to Shiv at 0cp, then so be it

[narrow ravine]

I think he was just asking if he should use shiv regardless of the cp he has

[limber lion]

Then you just Mutilate ot max-1

[lavish lichen]

I thibk you misunderstood, I mena pool to 3 CPs (at the same time a pooling energy for Shiv) and then shiv

[limber lion]

Yes, you do that

But you literally said

"So you should Envenom after shiv regardless of cp"

which is just incorrect

[limber lion]

.

[lavish lichen]

Ohh yea bad wording I see

[limber lion]

.

^ This is 100% incorrect.

[fallen arch]

Ok so how many of you

[limber lion]

You might have to Mutilate after Shiv or even garrote.

[fallen arch]

Have been slammed for playing sin in m+

[limber lion]

But yeah, just slam shiv.

[slow marsh]

It was under the assumption that you're at 3-5 cp already tho I think

[narrow ravine]

I just got KSM as Sin in m+ its fine

it may not be 'the best' but its not terrible

[limber lion]

As long as you don't overcap energy, you're fine.

[narrow ravine]

I still often top the group overall dps

[limber lion]

If you're going to overcap, then you use Envenom followed by Shiv.

[lavish lichen]

Yea this

[slow marsh]

All good haha

[lavish lichen]

But I get it bad wording

Thanks for the help

[slow marsh]

But yes cev brings up a good point

For like vanish I shiv into mut

On opener

[narrow ravine]

I don't do that

[slow marsh]

You don't want to wait for cp in that instance

Shiv vanish mut

[limber lion]

Getting multiple Mutilate casts during the MA window is actually more beneficial than 2 Envenoms.

[slow marsh]

Ye

[lavish lichen]

Ahh interesting

[limber lion]

Especially when using Flagellation

[lavish lichen]

Kyrian here 😦

[limber lion]

You want to maximize your CP generation and using Env - Muti - Env is just a slight waste in terms of CP.

[gusty mirage]

@limber lion do you use a WA to track the frost set?

[limber lion]

Yes.

[spice spire]

Kyrian sin

[slow marsh]

Ooooo

[gusty mirage]

Can I bother you for a link? :3

[limber lion]

But I don't play around it whatsoever, it's just to see how big hits I get

[fallen arch]

[limber lion]

Sure, I'll link it on bnet

[gusty mirage]

❤️

[limber lion]

[slow marsh]

I want to test kyrian

Sin

[iron orchid]

Don't mock kyrians huh

[lavish lichen]

Man… idk why you can’t test covs

Worst shit

[slow marsh]

I'm not making raid this weekend so I might do it rn actually

[fallen arch]

You can

Just have to wait to reset to go back

[lavish lichen]

I’m on ele sham main so I wanted to test stuff but couldn’t bc didnt want to troll raid

[spice spire]

I’m not mocking just never thought I’d see the day

[slow marsh]

I just have a hunch that kyrian could have better consistency vs venth due to rng soul bind stuff

[iron orchid]

I'm top 10 alli world on raider io as kyrian rogue, the next is 119

[spice spire]

[fallen arch]

He’s also last

Oh wait

[slow marsh]

Kleia sin is better st than Necro

And holds up decently in cleave

[fallen arch]

Which one are you?

[iron orchid]

Deïræ

around top 54 world or sth

[iron orchid]

Raiding as kyrian with kleia is a weird experience

But quite fun

all into that frost set stacking

[fallen arch]

Why can’t I find you?

[iron orchid]

https://raider.io/characters/eu/hyjal/Deïræ

[fallen arch]

Oh wait I thought u said all rogues

But it’s sin rogues

[iron orchid]

AH nah

[fallen arch]

Noice

[iron orchid]

YEAH

I'm not THAT good

xD

[narrow ravine]

the other rogues don't count

[iron orchid]

I'm honestly in the "could be better" still

[narrow ravine]

it would be trivial to swap to sub with sin gear, for the most part

[fallen arch]

Ye same but pugging is not great on alliance eu

[narrow ravine]

aoe would be way simpler

[iron orchid]

true

[narrow ravine]

but im necro and its not so good on sub

[fallen arch]

It actually is?

Necro sub sims quite well I think for dslice

Dunno how it translates tho to gameplay

[narrow ravine]

does it? people keep telling me if im necro better to just go sin outlaw, and venthyr go sin sub

[limber lion]

It's not the best gameplay.

Would not recommend necro Sub.

[narrow ravine]

I just want FoK to give me more than 1 combo point when I hit 8 things on Sin, is that too much to ask?!

[spice spire]

Yes

Unluckers

[fallen arch]

It happens

Fok should be like storm

That’d be nice

[narrow ravine]

fixing FoK combo points would solve a lot of sin issues in m+ i think, could get a lot more ruptures out

[fallen arch]

Wdym

U’re a boner dude

Clap out dem

[narrow ravine]

more consistency with cp generated by FoK rather

my boner works on up to 3 its fine, im not going boner leggo

[quasi ledge]

I prefer it being tied to crit, can at least feel the benefit of getting high crit with better gear

[spice spire]

I actually think sin is fine in m+, the more I play it

[narrow ravine]

its fine...

[fire dog meme] fine...

[spice spire]

I mean I’m pulling numbers higher than my group and relative to people that are far better than I am

I think it’s legit

Not Uber top tier, but you can stomp some 20+s with it pretty easily

[serene basin]

is there a pin of trinkets to go after:

[serene basin]

?

[limber lion]

[narrow ravine]

how...

[limber lion]

Fusion amp and Phial are the 2 best trinkets.

Shadowgrasp totem is great, the eye trinket is good.

[serene basin]

noice

[limber lion]

Apparently he got one dagger from Sylv and the second one from the vault the day after.

[serene basin]

got the fusion amp yesterday with the weekly so yay

[narrow ravine]

lucky sob

[serene basin]

and got a 226 phial

[serene basin]

wtf

[narrow ravine]

my raid has not even seen the bow or dagger drop at all, on any difficulty

[shadow tusk]

Is the 2 sylv daggers worth i for assa

[limber lion]

Good stuff. You can use Droptimizer in raidbots to find upgrades.

[shadow tusk]

sylv M version

[limber lion]

2 259 mythic ones, definitely.

[serene basin]

tyvm

[limber lion]

There's nothing better than the mythic daggers.

[winter vapor]

@willow osprey generally speaking ilevel is king, then its likely to be haste and crit preference, depending on domination bonuses, but sim yourself to get the bes idea

[limber lion]

But a 252 main hand and 246 heroic sylv dagger is better than 246 sylv dagger in both main hand and off hand.

[shadow tusk]

yeah for sure

I was just wondering if 1 Sylv and 1 renmant becomes better at a certain amount of targets

But its probably like 7 or 8+

[fallen arch]

Disgusting

[slow marsh]

i cri

[spice spire]

I hate this

So many replies LMFAO

That’s what my gear looks like in tourney realm

[slow marsh]

and the ugly mog on top of it. reeeee

[fallen arch]

Ye cos it’s the wet dream

[spice spire]

Except obviously 252-259

[solid venture]

Anyone else still haven't seen a single sylv dagger drop

[alpine latch]

Well, I got PF dagger... I need to push 17s this week for KSM so I can upgrade this bad boy.

[solid venture]

[alpine latch]

Don't feel too bad man. I still only have 3 dom sockets and in the last 3 weeks I haven't gotten a single raid drop that was usable

[solid venture]

Unlucky

[alpine latch]

Yeah, it happens.

[willow osprey]

tnx mate

[hollow river]

Hard to understand that after this long your dom sockets can still elude you every week lol

From every difficulty

Still missing chest piece here

[fallen arch]

Ye that also seems really odd to me

How many chances is that? Like 2-3 kills per week on 2 bosses for 6-7 weeks + all great vaults

That is really unlucky

[hollow river]

I’ve been sorta lucky otherwise

H sylv dagger, 252 outlaw wep from m+ vault

[tribal marlin]

I've killed HC + Normal Sylvanas with 3 people that could trade me the dagger

4 weeks in a row

no dagger

[hollow river]

Oof

[hardy yoke]

f

[hollow river]

I ran PF fully loot stacked yesterday

Nothin

[frigid kestrel]

I got Ooz from PF 4 times

Like, fuck me right? I can’t get the dagger or Phial

[fallen arch]

I had a double phial drop yesterday

[gusty mirage]

I'll funnel you a phial bb

and a dagger

[frigid kestrel]

Bout to go horde

[hollow river]

Well aren’t u special

[gusty mirage]

gimmie a month or so

[frigid kestrel]

Oxi gots my back

[gusty mirage]

nelf oxi almost level 60

[hollow river]

[gusty mirage]

I actually have a problem

I had like 4 rogues at 120 in bfa

[fallen arch]

Degenerate

[gusty mirage]

true

[fallen arch]

Also

[frigid kestrel]

Welp lunch break is up, holla at y’all Lara’s

[fallen arch]

Why

[gusty mirage]

3 were alliance

nelf, velf, and dark iron dorf

just to play around w/ the racials

[fallen arch]

Meld is the shit

Cant live without

Actually can

Just dont want

[oak sky]

Yeah i dont have raid hands

Not the only one missing socket pieces

[restive elm]

We have 220 and 239 dom gloves on the korthia vendors

[sudden canyon]

yoi waddup. i can finally make a r6 cape. not sure what to send i was gonna do dashing but i heard frost shard were getting nerfed or something not sure i should still send

[balmy condor]

They were oversimming

No nerfs

Fucking infexious

[sudden canyon]

ah icic

sims fixed now?

or been fixed i guess

[balmy condor]

Yes

Fixed last week

[sudden canyon]

bet thanks. 1 more question are the numbers on ur spreadsheet acurate for the covenant/lego table

[wintry mica]

how much was it oversimming? I saw some people saying their sims went down like 200 but that seems like too much for just the sinful frost interaction

[balmy condor]

Yes

[sudden canyon]

or not acurate but reflective of the fixes

ok cool thanks

[balmy condor]

They should be

[balmy condor]

Bout 150-200 seems about right

[wintry mica]

weird, you'd think the 6% sinful buff on frost set wouldnt be that impactful

[balmy condor]

It’s like 15% of your damage though

[wintry mica]

true

Im sure im doing something wrong but even assuming full uptime on sinfuls 6% only adds like 60 dps to winds for me

your winds would have to be doing 3.3k dps by itself for a 6% buff to count for 200 dps

[hollow river]

He been saying they were nerfed or something? Lol

[tired galleon]

Sims were fixed and he said rogues were nerfed for the clickbait views

[gusty mirage]

yep

because he's dumb as fuck

[hollow river]

How lovely

[cerulean nest]

it'll only help our parses dont worry

[hollow river]

How do you figure that

[potent dagger]

!oil

[prisma monolith]

Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ

[cerulean nest]

less competition idk no hablo ingles

[balmy condor]

He says a lot of shit

[hollow river]

Tu hablas espanol?

[balmy condor]

But yes

Infexious has said that frost was nerfed

[hollow river]

Yeah ik I popped into his stream for a moment the other day and he was talking about outlaw getting hit the hardest

[balmy condor]

Which is not true

[hollow river]

But didn’t hear him say nerf

[balmy condor]

They are, that parts true

[hollow river]

Yeah ik

[vestal wren]

infex missunderstood the information in #tc-updates, but thats on him for not asking/reading

[hollow river]

Yeah it was just sim dps correct

[balmy condor]

Correct

[hollow river]

Not in game?

[vestal wren]

discords often point out mistakes

[balmy condor]

In game has not changed

[vestal wren]

and there are enough people who don't care about status of a person and call out bullshit if its stated

[hollow river]

Kk that’s what I had thought

[vestal wren]

being wrong is btw. nothing bad, its just annoying for regulars to discuss the same topic multiple times because a more influential person did state something incorrect

[gusty mirage]

I mean his command was like !frostNERFS or some shit like that for while

[balmy condor]

And even more annoying when he doesn’t correct himself

[hollow river]

Yeah I know. Just can create more confusion among the community etc.

[vestal wren]

+1 but i think most wow content creators including some very big names don't revisit a topic even if they are completely wrong and set a wrong perspective

[gusty mirage]

Being wrong is very bad when you put out the information as "matter of fact"

because then everyone here has to deal with the shitstorm that follows

And he's like always wrong

it's impressive how wrong one human being can be actually

[vestal wren]

i don't think anyone will reiterate on a topic unless ther e is enough public exposure

like a ton of bad feedback on social media

[hollow river]

He plays pretty well though I think is why a lot of people listen

[vestal wren]

i can't comment on how well infex plays and i think he is in entertainment and wish him the best to gain/retain a decent status

but again, being wrong is nothing exclusive to him, a lot of even more influential people are wrong too

also a lot of things hold themself over a long duration fo time

we still have people infrequently asking if the sylvanas dagger is buggy for example

[hollow river]

Yep

YouTube videos don’t get deleted like old pins do.

Could outlaw not use dagger in the past?

Just curious

[alpine latch]

There was a bug in PTR that had something to do with proccing

Like, the first dagger to proc was the only one that could proc?

Something really, really fucking dumb

They removed the proc until it was fixed, and to my knowledge it's never been bugged while the patch was live

only in PTR

[vestal wren]

bfa had a time when outlaw would use 2 daggers due to a azerite build

and assassination had a time people would use 2 1h weapons in m+

so both outlaw and assassination had some spicy things ^^

[hollow river]

Wow lol

[alpine latch]

I miss the old combat daggers build

[hollow river]

Could you mutilate?

[vestal wren]

no

you would use fok

[hollow river]

LOL

[vestal wren]

it was more of a meme build

but it worked

[odd heath]

Double divers folly

[alpine latch]

Folly was so fucking strong

[odd heath]

It was

[serene basin]

bros, how bad is verst for M+? i've put up some crit and mast

put verst still high af

but*

[hollow river]

A little vers isn’t bad

Sim yourself

For best results

[serene basin]

uh

simm dslice?

[hollow river]

Dungeon slice

Yes

[serene basin]

i dont like that kind of sim

[hollow river]

Highest ilvl

[serene basin]

hm

[hollow river]

Is best usually

[serene basin]

ight

[hollow river]

Why not?

Dslice is well optimized for rogue specs.

Not as good for some other classes

But it’s pretty good for rogue

[serene basin]

for this reason

im main boomie

so, i dont usually go for that sim

but if it is good for rogues gg

[hollow river]

Ah

[vestal wren]

not sure if ds is bad for any specific class

opinions on it differ but i think its a reasonable estimate

[hollow river]

Oh?

I’ve heard some other classes aren’t optimized well for it

[serene basin]

those chickens on the boomkin discrd are discordant with ds

[vestal wren]

i know shamans don't like it even tho its totally fine for them

[hollow river]

Like APL and coding wise or something

[vestal wren]

but i don't think thats bad, opinions can differ

it depends, it can be apl issues but also just opinion

and its fair to have different opinions, in general every discord is its own bubble and has its own rules

[scenic root]

Other servers hate Dslice. I ask how they sim for m+ to figure out what to run, they said you can't, then give me reasons why I should run x/y/z in keys without sims

[gusty mirage]

that was always a meme though

no one actually took it seriously

[vestal wren]

it didn't sim that bad even

garn i know for fact that even compatitive players do 20/40 sec high target sims

[hollow river]

Yeh kinda weirdge

[vestal wren]

while i would say that one of the worse sims to do

[scenic root]

I understand there are theory crafters doing sims, but typically it's people echoing what someone else said. Then when I ask for reasons, typically don't get a legit answer.

[vestal wren]

tbh i think its just a issue of data presentation

but its easier to complain than solving that ^^

[scenic root]

True dat

[jovial adder]

Man misinformation is annoying lol I feel for all you guys who have to deal with it ❤️

[gusty mirage]

I disagree, I think it's an issue that we make excuses for people who spread misinformation for views on youtube

The fact that a certain content creator has been notorious for putting out wrong information in his videos for years now and is allowed to still be in RH is kinda sus

[vestal wren]

my point in that post was more about diffrences in opinion on fight style value

[gusty mirage]

yea fair enough

[vestal wren]

for what its worth, we still have people who come in regularely asking about spell queue window

coming from a video that was createdin bfa by a echo member with wrong information

[misty holly]

Do Boomies have uncapped aoe? I wonder if it's because they do groups that pulls like 15 mobs at once

and dslice never has that pull

for a capped aoe class it's probably fine

[odd heath]

But patchwerk sims are capped at 10tgts anyway

And iirc dgslice has a pack of 10 mobs on it

[visual prairie]

i dont' think it has anything that high

unless they changed it

[odd heath]

I don't really remember how was it

[vestal wren]

you can sim any number of targets

[odd heath]

It's like 2 min st, then various packs

[visual prairie]

it's actually small packs in dslice

[vestal wren]

just need to sim local

[odd heath]

Fair enough

[vestal wren]

but for what purpose would you sim more than 10 targets

esp. on rogue with 8 target cap

[odd heath]

For druids, ele shams, mages

[misty holly]

true, but a boomie might want larger pull simed

[vestal wren]

but even outside of rogue it seems rather uncommon to have that big of a target count

[odd heath]

Doesn't happen very often on keys anyway

[vestal wren]

thats the point

[visual prairie]

it alternates between packs with a size of 1-3 and packs with a size of 4-6 and the 1-3 packs last longer

[vestal wren]

packs in ds can overlap

[misty holly]

If true that is a problem.

[vestal wren]

to come back to "mage needs over 10 target sims", why?

[visual prairie]

Boss for just over 2 minutes (lust will be used for this boss)
4–6 mobs for 11–19 seconds
1–3 mobs for 26–34 seconds
4–6 mobs for 11–19seconds
1–3 mobs for 26–34 seconds
Continue alternating between large and small packs until the end of the sim
There will be variable gaps of time between trash packs

[misty holly]

Almost every dungeon has pulls of 8 mobs regularly. Some have pulls of 12+

if you are doing 2 packs at once

[vestal wren]

i don't see anyone realistically pull more than 10 targets for a sustained amount of time that would justify using it as a point of gearing evaluation

if thats rly a public opinion that you need idk 12 target 2 minute sims or so

i think that just means those players like to see big numbers in a sim

[odd heath]

How does Elemental sim ?

Single target - Patchwerk 1 Boss 5minutes is the standard, vary if appropriate. ilvl is very likely to be your best, see #ele-faq for more.

M+ - To make gear comparisons we use Patchwerk 4-6 bosses, 40s/1min durations, disable Bloodlust.

Like. It is a spec without aoe cap

And they say to sim 4-6 tgts, but don't use dgslice

Funny lol

Would totally work with a good apl

[vestal wren]

their apl is fine

they just disslike the fight style

[misty holly]

It's weird, a few weeks ago when I was doing mostly 15 and 16's groups did 1 pack at a time.

[vestal wren]

again, thats fine everyone can have their own opinion

[lavish lichen]

Nah they don’t hold CDs afaik, only SK

[misty holly]

Now people are a bit more geared and Im trying to get into 17s

and seeing 2 packs at at once every group

trying to make time with increased health pools

[vestal wren]

2 packs is still not 12 targets

[obtuse robin]

btw cev is raiding with method atm on sco stream

[misty holly]

I think if the tank can survive it 2 packs is faster

[spice spire]

You definitely have a lot of large pulls in m+ these days. For example, the first pull I did this weekend for HoA was the entire right side of the top side which is 23 mobs - second pull even larger. It’s definitely a viable thing now because people are going up in key level

[visual prairie]

it's also not fortified raging this week

[vestal wren]

even on high keys?

[spice spire]

Yes

[misty holly]

high keys its more important. you won't make time without the aoe

[spice spire]

The way to time is group and burn essentially. The goal of that pull is to push 22s at least

[misty holly]

too much health to chew through

[vestal wren]

i mean its one specific key

[spice spire]

I don’t think it’s necessarily important for rogue and that’s not the point I’m after, but it is useful for some

[vestal wren]

and question is if everyone is going full aoe build in that even

i would also argue that you won't bring a rogue if target cap is that important ^^

[spice spire]

In DoS you pull the pats up top. And then you pull everything but the dragon to the urn and pop it

And that’s definitely close to 30ish targets.

Yeah definitely not, but I can see validity in having higher target sims is all 😛

[vestal wren]

oh ye

i am still unsure if you go all in for this pack in gear/talents

[spice spire]

I’m listing examples, point was all dungeons have these levels of pulls 😛

[vestal wren]

i meant his means rogue is utter garbo in m+ and not played

[misty holly]

its tough because dslice only sims a few pulls and then a boss. Not the whole dungeon.

maybe seperating dslice into 2 sims with smaller and bigger trash pulls would help

[vestal wren]

if 30+ target pulls are super common in all dungeons

[misty holly]

they arent. only that one pull is 30

but I can think of a few 10-15 pulls

in other dungeons

halls of atonement has like 3 pulls of 12+

maybe even 4

[spice spire]

I can still do 18-25k, but definitely drop the value of rogue aoe compared to like aff lock, ele shaman, and different uncapped classes

[vestal wren]

i mean rogue is just objectively bad

if you have a lot of high target pulls

you are limited to 8 targets

so if you say "30+" target pulls are common in all dungeons or even correct thatt o 20+ or 15+ it just means you won't bring rogue at all

[misty holly]

We can spread crippling poison!

that is useful!

[vestal wren]

or any aoe capped class for what its worth

and if thats the case, its on blizz to fix it

[misty holly]

It's why I only push on tyrannical weeks now...

I suck too much on fort

[vestal wren]

from raider.io you have 2 maybe 3 dungeons rogue does fall out of flavour atm at the very top end

[misty holly]

at least my single target is useful on T

[vestal wren]

so i don't think its as dramatic

[obtuse robin]

so i have a noob question

we all how minimal it is between agi pot and phantom does frost give phantom an extra boost or nah

[misty holly]

I think you can sim that. Let us know if you spot a difference!

[obtuse robin]

oh yea i forgot

[dawn ivy]

pretty sure frost doesnt accumulate crits from non class specific damage

[misty holly]

remember agil gives crit % too

so they might balance out

[dawn ivy]

does agility still give crit? i feel like thats not true

[obtuse robin]

top logs say sin use agi and outlaw uses phantom intresting

[gusty mirage]

Except that you would, because interrupts and hard CCs still need to happen

M+ isn't a DPS fiesta

there's a lot of little things that need to be taken care of and rogue is perfect for that

the blade flurry meta of BFA wasn't just that because outlaw pumped damage. They wanted rogues for the kicks, the gouges, the blinds, the stuns

the shrouds

Looking at dungeons from strictly a dps standpoint is incredibly shortsighted

[vital tapir]

even tricks

is huge utility

for some tanks that don't have burst

[gusty mirage]

if you're doing 10s and topping out at 15s

sure take whoever pumps more

cause shit won't live long enough to matter

[astral plover]

On mythic whats best. SIn or Sub?

[vital tapir]

^

[obtuse robin]

u def dont pull 30 plus in all dungeons. some dont even have packs like that

[vital tapir]

you can play whatever
everything's fine

really just depends on your pref

if you pref sub, go play sub

[visual prairie]

mdi time trials, top teams all brought rogue on de other side and halls 21.

[astral plover]

i deffo pref Sin

[vital tapir]

if you pref assa, go play assa

[visual prairie]

and you know they were pulling big

[vital tapir]

nothing wrong with that, just continue playing sin then

dw, you're not griefing anyone

[astral plover]

Just did HC Guardian. i did more as sub. with no Practise tho

had me wondering

[vital tapir]

sub should have more ST dmg

but as I told you

it's not to an extent where it's griefing if you're playing assa

[vestal wren]

yes, i just feel like evaluating gear for 30/15 enemies seems not efficient. I might be entirely wrong in my opinion

[vital tapir]

and assa tends to be more forgiving kinda

"forgiving"

[spice spire]

Well that’s just moving the post. I was just saying it could be valuable here for other classes - not necessarily rogue in mind. Oxi is just counter pointing the “why bring rogue statement”

I think it’s a valuable sim in potential.

[vestal wren]

its for me hard to say

i don't think we have enough players who push in the top positions to confirm how much idk 15 target sims are used for talent/gear evaluation

and i am still skeptic if thats reasonable to use as a evluation metric

but i aknowlage that opinions differ and that it might be relevant

[spice spire]

That point is fair, but we are getting more and more people :P.
I don’t think it’s a good evaluation metric (speaking for rogue) as much as it’s a good goal post for people. While it may be a good metric for other classes 😛

[vestal wren]

no i mean i am even for those classes sceptical

would be interessting to make some statistics/sims/calculations on it

[south hollow]

Guys does the shield from the frost shard

Proc the marrowed gemstone?

[oak sky]

Didnt they determine that the dslice was still correct on best gear for damage regardless of pull counts

And sims arent really a target anyway so it doesnt matter if you hit your number or are past it?

[vestal wren]

dungeon slice is good because its a mixed fight style

its by no means perfect

[kind talon]

Dungeonslice isn’t a sim style that determines spec viability, it’s only for figuring out which gear is best

[oak sky]

Thats what im saying

[kind talon]

The only thing that determines spec viability is playing the game yeah

Exactly :)

[wintry mica]

dungeonslice doesnt even work for all specs

[kind talon]

Yep

[vestal wren]

it should work for all specs

[kind talon]

It doesn’t

Because their APL’s are shit

[oak sky]

Yeah but for rogue specifically, i remember a while back hearing that even without adjusting for high count pulls, gear it recommends will do more damage in a high count pull

[wintry mica]

it may work, but it wont be accurate, I know like boomkin you basically have to sim patchwerk

[hollow river]

Lol we had this conversation earlier

[kind talon]

Ye

[kind talon]

Ye

[vestal wren]

thats a interesting discussion agreon

[hollow river]

I mean our target cap is 8 targets

And iirc dslice maxes at 9 count pulls

[oak sky]

I think someone asked whispyr a month or 2 ago

[kind talon]

Yeah but it’s a mix of a ton of pull counts

Whereas a dungeon like halls is constantly 8+

[vestal wren]

the assumption that you need super high target counts to evaluate is interessting if you assume that talent/stats won't change significantly due to that

[kind talon]

I think is agreons point

[vestal wren]

and if thats the case, dungeon slice will give you a way better estimate because its not optimizing for one speciifc pull (and even fail to map that one well) while ignoring the rest of the dungeon run

[hollow river]

Yeah I mean you still want to optimize for boss fights

Not just the big aoe

[vestal wren]

this is why this entire topic would be interesting to deep dive.
We have many dependencies that don't seem obvious and there could be absolute reasons why something is better/worse for a specific subset of people or for specific dungeons

[raw fog]

Hi all
i feel like im not getting enough stacks on Flagellation
mostly i get 15-17 18
might be due to the fact that there are only 5 max combo points but is there an efficient way to make sure to get as much talents as possible

[hollow river]

You will normally only get to 20-21 stacks as sin

Unless it’s during lust

You will almost never get 30 unless you get lucky with crit/seal fate combo point procs during lust

[hollow river]

Are you following the max-1 combo point finisher rule?

[delicate berry]

For fusion trink is there a preferred window to use it in? I.e. with the 2m cds ven/flag or just use on cd regardless of other cds

[hollow river]

Use on cd

[delicate berry]

Since its only 1.5m

[raw fog]

@hollow river sorry but i dont know it im a little bit new with rogue

[hollow river]

No problem

[delicate berry]

Thanks and I assumed as much but wanted to confirm

[hollow river]

We don’t force 5 combo point finishers(rupture/envenom/etc)

[hollow river]

Just as long as you will keep hitting the boss during its window

[delicate berry]

Since holding would essentially give you 1+ uses loss per fight

[hollow river]

Think it procs from autos iirc

Yeah everyone just uses on cd basically

[delicate berry]

Of course

[hollow river]

@raw fog basically you can use finishers at 4 combo points because if u mutilate again I will waste a combo point

[raw fog]

thing is when you mutilate and get 3 combo points
do you mutilate again for 5 finisher or you just use shiv / poisened knife

[hollow river]

We avoid wasting combo points at all costs, except for casting shiv

[hollow river]

You get 2

3 would be from a proc

We don’t play around the procs

[raw fog]

i meant which is worth
feel like shiv is better for its lower energy cost
my biggest issue when i look at my dmg logs is that i have nearly more dmg from mutilate than evenom which looks bad compared to other pro players logs who sometimes have evenom dmg 4 times muti dmg

[hollow river]

You only use shiv if:

You have rupture on your target

You want to try and envenom inside shiv

You press shiv on cd

[oak sky]

First priority with shiv is pressing it on cd

[hollow river]

^

Besides your opener

[fervent rune]

Also don’t use poison knife in your rotation for cp. only if your out of range

[hollow river]

^^^^^^

You can use garrote to get to 5 combo points but only if you need to refresh garrote

[raw fog]

garrote is worth a mutilate on energy so i only use it when needs to refresh

[hollow river]

That’s good

[hollow river]

Have you checked out all the guides and the FAQ channels?

Very good information

[obsidian socket]

I’ve always filled my 4 cp to 5 with extra fan of knives

[hollow river]

No bueno

[obsidian socket]

If garrote isn’t near ded

[raw fog]

what about vendetta and flag
which one should be casted first even tho i can cast them in a 0.5 sec diff
and should they be casted in same time ( meaning i wait for both to be on cd to use them or use whichever is on cd )
i didnt read all faqs yet which i surely will do
just wanted to throw some random questions lol

[hollow river]

You use them on CD

[oak sky]

The opener uses flag before vendetta

[hollow river]

You can sync vendetta and flag if you won’t lose a cast during the fight

But that’s more min max

And you need fight timings etc

[oak sky]

!guides

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[hollow river]

Openers are in the guides ^

[oak sky]

The full opener should be in wowhead and icyveins i think

Yeah

[hollow river]

IceyVeins has opener iirc

[raw fog]

Alright ill check these out ty all

[hollow river]

No problem, if you still have questions after guides I’m sure someone would be down to answer.

[raw fog]

yea i believe it too

[ebon thorn]

pog sylv dead

lowest parae though :YEP-3:

[hollow river]

H or M?

[ebon thorn]

M

[hollow river]

Either way congrats

[ebon thorn]

Solid 9 parse

[hollow river]

Doesn’t matter, progression > parse

Now vault the dagger to show us it’s possible

[ebon thorn]

i pray

got no loot from last 2 resets

i believe

[hollow river]

Dang

It will happen

[obsidian socket]

Literally never seen a dagger bro it doesn’t real

[gusty mirage]

loot doesn't exist

stay woke

[hollow river]

O.o

I think I’d take a 246 chest piece over another dagger at this point

Got my first mythic vault tomorrow too

[gusty mirage]

best my luck homie

may the rng gods bless you with the fattest of loots

[hollow river]

Only first 3 bosses

[gusty mirage]

purty sure you can get anything from the first 8 in that box

for a salvaged fusion amp

[hollow river]

Huh

Ohhh

[oak sky]

Loot actually doesnt exist

Its true

[hollow river]

The 4 mythic dungeon quest

[oak sky]

I got 2 pieces and traded one each of the past 2 weeks

And someone else looted everything i needed this week p much

[hollow river]

I’ve got 3/10M and 10/10 H for raid vault tmrw

And working on 4/10 for m+ tonight

I know the feeling @oak sky

[oak sky]

And my guild couldnt kill the 9 so i had no chance at the crit hands

I meant eye

Im dumb

[hollow river]

All I need atm, that is obtainable, is H fusion amp, phial, or a 252 dagger

[oak sky]

Hahs

[hollow river]

Other than that it’s just H kt/sylv loot

[gusty mirage]

those also don't exist dw

[oak sky]

I need high crit hat, any raid hands, all sylv loot but belt, kt shoulders

[gusty mirage]

on any difficulty

[oak sky]

From heroic

[gusty mirage]

239 vers/mastery from heroic pain

[hollow river]

I have both gloves from H

[oak sky]

I mean ill get t6 codex in the next 2 weeks

So ill get raid hands eventually

[hollow river]

I’ve traded off boots and gloves

Cuz I have both of each

[quasi ledge]

Done 6 Mythic bosses and all 10 heroic this week, all I looted was the heroic belt on Soulrender.
Such fun getting nothing :)

[obsidian socket]

What do you guys do when you get a 4 cp mutilate and you need to fill in one more cp

[oak sky]

Dont fill it

[hollow river]

But still the Chest piece

[oak sky]

Unless its with deeper

[hollow river]

Envenom

[oak sky]

Rhen you just mut

[hollow river]

Or rupture if u need refresh

[obsidian socket]

So there’s like 3 options?
Rupture refresh
Garrote refresh to fill to 5 cp?
Envenom

[hollow river]

Yeah

Or if shiv is off cd u can shiv, then envenom

[oak sky]

^

[hollow river]

But u can shiv even if at 5 cp

Shiv is the only thing we’re allowed to overcap CP with

[obsidian socket]

4th option ok

[hollow river]

But u don’t wanna shiv

If rupture isn’t on your target

[obsidian socket]

Yeah I’m my scenario that’s assumed

[oak sky]

Its fine to refresh bleeds during shiv if necessary, its just preferred not to

[obsidian socket]

I need to look at more logs then smh

[balmy condor]

I just finish on 4

no point trying to overthink getting a 5th cp

[obsidian socket]

A quick FoK bad doe?

[loud estuary]

Anyone doing high keys with Venth assassin here? Getting bored of Sub and have been doing Assassin instead. Guides say to use the Venth lego but I feel like it's very hard to maximize the use of it in dungeons. Is zoldy still the best alternative for keys and on par with venth lego or better?

[hollow river]

Bad

[balmy condor]

terrible

[oak sky]

How high is high poptart

[loud estuary]

17-22's~

[hollow river]

Pretty high man

[loud estuary]

not extremely high lol

[oak sky]

I do 17s i might be able to help

[balmy condor]

would run zoldyck

[obsidian socket]

Why it so terrible?

[hollow river]

Waste of energy and combo points

[balmy condor]

because you never want to build on 4

[obsidian socket]

I’ll adopt this new strategy then and see how I do dps wise

[loud estuary]

Also, dashing has been slamming for me in raids, I'm loving dashing + frost.

[obsidian socket]

I’ve been living a lie

[hollow river]

Check out the guides

And FAQ channel

Very helpful information

!guide

[wintry mica]

has anyone been running dashing in keys?

[oak sky]

@loud estuary imo obedience seems good but only really if st feels more important based on your group/dungeon/affixes

[balmy condor]

just don't

[oak sky]

zoldyck is usually just better

[wintry mica]

kind of what i figured lol

[balmy condor]

always*

[hollow river]

!guides

Why

[balmy condor]

!guide

[hollow river]

No work

[balmy condor]

!pb

[oak sky]

we used it earlier

[kind talon]

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

probably just restarting

[kind talon]

!guid

[balmy condor]

give it 5-10 minute

[kind talon]

!deathly

!bis

[oak sky]

wtf

where is !bis

[hollow river]

[obsidian socket]

Can there be any times when we would use fok to fill in 1 cp? Perhaps when we have two targets with bleeds up and we need to keep poisons on them and no bleed is in refresh territory and shiv is on cd?

[hollow river]

No

Not to fill in 1 cp

[obsidian socket]

Spend and then fok probably?

[hollow river]

You would spend then Fok

Yes

[oak sky]

fok is only 3t+ tho

[balmy condor]

well

3 to apply poisons

[hollow river]

Yea for poisons

[balmy condor]

you wouldn't generate with it until 4

[oak sky]

yeah thats what im saying

like even for poisons

[balmy condor]

ye

[oak sky]

in 2t you still mutilate

[kind talon]

:)

[balmy condor]

tbh I don't even bother with fok until 4

[oak sky]

agree

not that my opinion means anything

[kind talon]

[obsidian socket]

Hmm I like to live on the edge and send a fok out on 3 targets

[kind talon]

[obsidian socket]

If I get two cps it was worth 15 energy less than a mut for the same price

[hollow river]

Send fok on 6 targets

Get 1 cp

[oak sky]

its worse numerically for generation and damage or everyone would do it, but whatever floats your boat

[obsidian socket]

Happens all the time on fate smh

[balmy condor]

I like to live on the edge and do worse damage

[kind talon]

@balmy condor what about on painsmith

fok for cp?

[balmy condor]

what about it

[hollow river]

Yea but your damage and there’s a chance you get only 1 cp

[oak sky]

pretty sure getting the cp is worse than mutilating

[kind talon]

cause ball dmg past second is not effective damage

[hollow river]

Mut does more damage especially when using doomblade

[loud estuary]

I see you trying to pad on that painsmith

[balmy condor]

it wouldn't be worth for anything except ball padding

[kind talon]

???????

[balmy condor]

if you're single targeting a ball, you'd mut

[kind talon]

ye

[balmy condor]

if you're trying to do boss damage, you'd mut

[kind talon]

aight sick