assassination

[scenic meteor]

obedience goes on claok right?

[azure flare]

I also never mentioned legos simming the same or w/e

[obtuse robin]

nothing for the leggo cnovo but in for the insults

thats how u know

got nothing

[azure flare]

okay you can't read english my bad

[misty bough]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789824884746354708/863100391289520138/image0.png

[obtuse robin]

zzz anyway

[misty bough]

Lets do the same

[obtuse robin]

yea all that and not mentioning how good war is in raid

and we have nothing

case closed

[lone wren]

i dont wanna sound pessimistic but looking at numbers, is there is a reason to bring a rogue and a warrior over 2 warriors? i just dont see it, every time i'd go with 2 warriors over rogue/warrior

oh well at least people still need our shroud in M+ ....i think ...

[soft fable]

Most guilds in my level are bringing their best players after covering basic raid needs thankfully.

[lone wren]

of course, but if we are talking near evenly matched player quality...i don't see how a rogue would be picked over a warrior

[winged basin]

In my opinion, 2 rally’s with the increased rally conduit, will be 200% be more worth than bringing 1 rogue 1 warrior. We bring nothing to raid besides high damage.

[lone wren]

exactly

a second rally alone is so good

that even if warrior did less damage it would still be worth it

now add the fact they do more damage too ...

[obtuse robin]

a 2nd rally and superoir exicute

cool

[winged basin]

Archies argument for fury sinful nerf really resonates to Venth rogue aswell to me. But I am not a CE every patch raider so my opinion is irrelevant

[obtuse robin]

its even more to rogues cuz we dont bring anything else

imo

[delicate bone]

warrior needed the nerf removed much more than we do

MUCH more

theyre literally on the bottom

[obtuse robin]

?

[delicate bone]

?

[modest jasper]

!

[azure bronze]

Fury warrior did yes

[obtuse robin]

fury was top 3 in sims

[lone wren]

sadly the problem is deeper rooted, than small legendary tuning. The issue rests with the fact blizzard doesn't understand that tier 1 dps classes bring no utility but should bring highest dps in the game. If you want a class to be tier 2 dps category then they -must- bring utility.

[azure bronze]

Sims is not actualy output in a raid

[lone wren]

Rogue is tier 2 with no utility

[obtuse robin]

they r nerfing the leggos based on sims

[azure bronze]

It's a patchwerk stand still situation

[delicate bone]

dude what are you even talking about

[obtuse robin]

notice who got nerfed

the specs on top

[delicate bone]

you cannot rightfully say that we need our lego reverted

[obtuse robin]

of the sims

[delicate bone]

lmfao

[azure bronze]

Sims and PTR testing is what they based their nerfs pm

[obtuse robin]

we just gave a whole bunch of reasons wwhy

[delicate bone]

warrior nerf was literally reverted

[cloud bramble]

I think rogue content creators help beat us down...they where singing praises about necro for weeks and everyone flipped out when the sims came out.

[delicate bone]

you guys are actually delusional

[obtuse robin]

ok yea just a troll

nvm

[lone wren]

yes but look at fury warrior, you add a second target or a 3rd target ...nothing changes they have aoe, cleave, single target, execute, raid buffs ...why am i not playing my warrior?

[delicate bone]

fury is terrible right now

we are not

[azure flare]

the irony lol

[lone wren]

how is fury terrible?

[obtuse robin]

yea this guys trolling

dont

[winged basin]

Fury is not terrible, you are delusional

[obtuse robin]

omg

[delicate bone]

95%

[obtuse robin]

lol

[lone wren]

you dont know hwo to read sims dude

*how

[obtuse robin]

lmao

why u lookign at that

[delicate bone]

@sudden brook help bro

[winged basin]

That has Frost under feral

[sudden brook]

fury is fucking terrible

[strange python]

Why can’t we just get along

[nimble tinsel]

A long what?

lmao

[sudden brook]

fury is a bad spec, it needs something like sinful surge to be strong
fury also cannot even use sinful surge on the hardest fight in the raid, which is Sylvanas Windrunner
Sin doesnt need Obedience to be good, its already in the top 5 specs in raid

[strange python]

Rofl

[sudden brook]

thats why obe nerfed

and sinful not

[azure flare]

when we tried to tell them they called us trolls

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[modern schooner]

!legendary

[lone wren]

i agree with the fact rogue when played right is a great progression spec in mid to good guilds

[delicate bone]

we arent green, noone believes us 😦

[lone wren]

but great guilds in top 200 will find little use for rogue with the way things are

[sudden brook]

ppl are just mad because a shit tier spec is getting mild buffs when legos comes out

[misty bough]

Lmfao that random sim pic, fury nerf got removed

So fury is busted now

[sudden brook]

dog, rogue was 5x worse in CN, and top 10 guilds were running rogues

[obtuse robin]

xdddddddd

[modern schooner]

is obedience a new legendary?

[buoyant mauve]

uh no, when you started hurling insults and acting like you're above everything, that's when you started getting called a troll, not before that moment

[sudden brook]

ppl were playing outlaw and sub in CN

and rogue was SHIT in CN

just str8 up

[lone wren]

the issue i snever rogue being bad, it's not bad, it's the fact it cannot -justify- a spot

[azure flare]

go read the entire thing, tho ill correct myself that I wasn't reffering to myself anyway, I wasn't being called a troll to begin with

[sudden brook]

yes u can

[misty bough]

Ur playing sub and outlaw, just get out of the ass section

[sudden brook]

raids are 20 man rosters

u need to fill 20 slots with good players

if the meta was that strict, EVERY raid comp would be the same

[lone wren]

you only get what 5 melee spots? when you line up the classes you see rogue wont make the cut if you aim for efficient raid set up

[sudden brook]

you dont only get 5 melee spots

[misty bough]

Kekw

[sudden brook]

not even being toxic, but do u raid at all

[delicate bone]

wut

[misty bough]

Do you?

[sudden brook]

or do u just watch the limit max videos where he says u get 5 melee spots

[lone wren]

....

im done lo l

[misty bough]

Are you also a 7x ce player?

Send profile pls

[sudden brook]

im in HC

[drowsy parcel]

[sudden brook]

a top 100 guild

[azure bronze]

[azure flare]

lol

[sudden brook]

if those credentials mean anything

[indigo mulch]

I'm top50 normal guild.

[slow marsh]

Wtf just happened to this channel and why does it always go to shit when certain people start taking

[obtuse robin]

idk but its funny

[dusty garden]

@sudden brook speaking the truth right now

[misty bough]

Yea, and im in woox's personal cc

[delicate bone]

this man has 2 rank 1 parses already

[sudden brook]

'

im not trying to posture at all i just think the freaking out about the fury stuff is a bit much

rogue is fine in raid

especially this tier

especially sin rogue

[delicate bone]

owning

[slow marsh]

Sky I think you need more quarters

[delicate bone]

send em over

[cloud bramble]

outlaw? gross

[sudden brook]

i mean im sure sky already posted this but

[misty bough]

U can't look at parses on 1st boss, thats all rng

[sudden brook]

assa is a top 5 spec

fury is bottom 10

[slow marsh]

Na you'll just waste them riding forever

[sudden brook]

fury needs buffs

[drowsy parcel]

b-b-b-b-b-but muh sims

[indigo mulch]

Assassination has almost always been the go to raiding spec for mythic prog though, i kept saying that and people called me names 😦

[misty bough]

And the other parse is a 100

Out of 2 ppl

[white kettle]

Just give it a month or two jfc

[misty bough]

So dont @ me

[white kettle]

Quit trying to balance the game

[flat orbit]

People actually believed obedience nerf wasn't deserved and were looking at sims to justify their opinion?

[fervent path]

I personally say fury scales - hand it full domination sockets and two of those 2h swords and it will slap

[sudden brook]

@misty bough

can we focus on the actual substance

rather than calling me shit

[misty bough]

Ur calling fury weak

[sudden brook]

yes

[misty bough]

Kekw

[sudden brook]

because it is

what guilds are stacking fury rnn

[indigo mulch]

Fury is weak though.

[delicate bone]

#flex

[misty bough]

Lets buff cloak aswell right?

[fervent path]

Just cause something sucks at the start of a tier doesn’t mean its weak lul

[sudden brook]

fury right now, is weak

[obtuse robin]

we were looking at wat rogues brings to a raid to justify our opinions

[flat orbit]

Jesus christ. We literally all agreed last week that obedience was broken

[white kettle]

Just give it some time.

[sudden brook]

rogue brtings a lot of fucking damage

thats what rogue brings

[fervent path]

You literally said it mate

“Rn”

Give it gear

It will climb

[sudden brook]

theres a really good reason every top guild is stacking rogues to funnel daggers for mythic

theres a reason why ppl are paying millions of gold to get daggers traded to their rogues

and it isnt because "rogue is bad"

[indigo mulch]

Sub dagger is much stronger than assassin daggers though. D:

[sudden brook]

correct

its still very good for sin

[indigo mulch]

Agreed.

[sudden brook]

like 3% each or something

[slender berry]

for progress its atleast another source of a top dagger besides chest and mythic

[swift sky]

afaik majority of wf raiders who have warriors are doing night fae arms if im not mistaken

so yeah

[lone wren]

i dont think anyone here was saying rogue is bad at all, the topic of discussion was overall desirability of rogue vs other classes

[obtuse robin]

yup

[sudden brook]

heres saying rogue is bad

[lone wren]

and no one was freaking out over fury, it was just a discussion until you started saying we were freaking out

[obtuse robin]

?

hell no

[fervent path]

No its not?

[indigo mulch]

But as i said a couple of days ago, it dosent matter that sub is super ahead of assassination, assassination has always been the go to mythic prog spec. Well almost always. :p

[white kettle]

Rogues rn only being damage and not a lot of utility, that's it lol.

[dusty garden]

Yeah, and rogues are fairly desirable right now

[obtuse robin]

thats wat that ment at all

[sudden brook]

nevermind then i misread what u said

[obtuse robin]

lmao

[white kettle]

Bring*

[slow marsh]

Yikes

Outlaw players smh

[lone wren]

the topic is yes rogue does good damage, but their damage isn't higher than other melee classes enough to justify the lack of utility

[slow marsh]

Blow up after misreading

[slender berry]

that was his way of saying its pointless to argue with idiots

[obtuse robin]

sheesh

[delicate bone]

you play the easiest spec in the game, why is this alwaysthe go to insult here? lmao

[lone wren]

even if a fury warrior does 6% less than a rogue, a second rally can get you a prog kill

[sudden brook]

sure

[lone wren]

that is the discussion point

[slow marsh]

Because it's always a toxic shit show when the outlaw players show up?

[sudden brook]

but damage is really important

especially early on

[delicate bone]

we are literally just saying that fury deserved to have the nerf reverted and we do not

nothing toxic

[slow marsh]

Like honestly I may as well be in the havoc discord

[white kettle]

This raid is based of a damage and bursting down atm although.

[flat orbit]

I mean the sin players started shit to begin with just cus warriors got their shit reverted lol

[indigo mulch]

To be honest, if you run mythic you know that early on you are struggling a lot with dps.

[fervent path]

Ion even said he needs to hand rogues something to make them desirable and he doesn’t seem to know a lot and I honestly think the daggers were literally blizzs bandaid until they add some sort of raid utility in a later patch or xpac

[sudden brook]

yeah but rogues do damage now

in CN rogues didnt do damage

rogues do a lot of fucking damage now

we arent in CN anymore where dk does the most damage, and has raid cds

dk does shit damage

rogue does big dmg

[obtuse robin]

LOL

[lone wren]

exactly this, the issue is the broader game design, not legendary tuning

[white kettle]

DK does still good damage tho

[sturdy forge]

Imagine that warrior community successfully spoke out as a group and devs listened.

[white kettle]

They haven't changed. The only thing that has is AMZ

[bright turret]

rogues are in a much better spot now than when CN progress was relevant, gotta take the Ws where you can

[sand heath]

is IQD for Assa any good, for raids?

[white kettle]

Tru

[sudden brook]

rogue does more than dk

thats my point

[spice spire]

It is - or it can be if your stats are in the right place

[indigo mulch]

For venthyr its one of the best trinkets.

[spice spire]

Who needs utility when you can kill bosses

Comes across troll-y but the big dam not irrelevant

[slow marsh]

If we had utility right now we would be busted and get nerfed so I mean...

[white kettle]

In sims which don't mean shit versus practicality lol

[sudden brook]

nobody is looking at sims rn

for evaluating spec

were looking at raid logs

[modern schooner]

I'm NF so I am switching, should I do necro or venthyr?

[sudden brook]

which is real world practical usage

and right now sin does more damage than fury

[fervent path]

Oh I agree, but it can’t stay like that so for now yes we do damage but at a later stage we need to be looked at in raid environments

[sudden brook]

like, a lot more

[white kettle]

On the first week

[indigo mulch]

Both venthyr and necro is good.

[lone wren]

how much more?

[odd hazel]

Fury OP guys I believe it

Just you watch

[lone wren]

not bars, actual numbers

[mental flicker]

I’m so friggin’ confused with all these changes. Can’t even tell which sims and guides are actually current. Can someone help me out simply: what’re the top two rogue spec/cov combos for M+ at this point?

[white kettle]

Where are hunters LOL

[sudden brook]

i cropped the rest of it

hunters are down terrible

[maiden plaza]

what does that chart show, exactly?

[odd hazel]

@sudden brook in sin? What happened ?

[cloud bramble]

damn, according to those numbers they just deleted boomkins

[fallen arch]

Ded

[sudden brook]

it shows "damage across the raid"

[white kettle]

hilarious.

[sudden brook]

it takes the damage of a spec, and compares it to the rest of the fights in the raid

so sin, on average, across the raid, is one of the best specs in the game

meanwhile fury, on average, across the raid, is not relaly that good

[flat orbit]

Black and multiple others were using sims as their main argument why rogues should have their legendaries reverted - just because warrior was higher in sims.

[sudden brook]

reality is what simpoirtant

[slow marsh]

I mean wars were able to do it

[sudden brook]

not a st patchwork sim with no movement

especially when fights like sylv exist, where fury literally CAN NOT use sinful surge

[dusty garden]

Which is extremely stupid

[white kettle]

Exactly. I was confused wtf was the point here lol

[lone wren]

right now for example highest rogue dps on jailer heroic is 7.1k highest fury is 6.8k ..you are right rogue does more than fury ..however when yo uare progging that rally is worth way more than 300 extra dps

[slow marsh]

Why not get a Twitter petition to revert the obe nerf sense we don't even have the raid util like wars do

Worth a shot?

[sudden brook]

i hope u know obe is way stronger than sinful surge

like

a lot strongner

[swift sky]

and have sub do stupid amount of damage?

[slow marsh]

Ik

[azure flare]

agreed, hence why I didn't even wanna argue with that kind of flawed thinking lol

[obtuse robin]

this man literally changed his name to mention me again

lol

[slow marsh]

Its a meme

[sudden brook]

sinful is shit cleave, its UNUSABLE on the hardest fight in the entire game, and its only good for fury, and fury isnt good rn

[flat orbit]

?

[sudden brook]

fury needs stuff like sinful to be competitive, sin doesnt need obe to be competitive

[azure flare]

I mean tbh

[maiden plaza]

sub does tho, doesn't it?

[fervent path]

At the end if the day this is poor game design, not a warrior issue in itself. The blood shard execute works the same does it not and only kicks in when a target is below 50% health so no ones shard will even work on the encounter. They need to change how sylvs health works

[azure flare]

watch fury still perform like crap in the raid

[misty bough]

"Fury isnt good because all these warriors who are like 12 renown did bad first week"

[swift sky]

fury leggo revert is pointless if wf raiders will play arms fae anyways

[sudden brook]

sub is still good with obe

joppig can u stop stirring shit

u dmd me ur normal raid logs to prove fury is good

[misty bough]

Thats literally it dude

[azure flare]

LOL

[white kettle]

Watch the reactions go up

[brisk dew]

Woke up to violence

[slender berry]

[sick cairn]

anyone know if the fine razorwing quill trinket is any good? its not in herodamage

[winged basin]

I put the first kek, and there is nothing more satisfying then watching it go up

[misty bough]

Compare NF fury logs

[slow marsh]

Yup outlaw in sin channel. It's a massacre

[sudden brook]

im just trying to keep people grounded

and better understand why obe got nerfed, while sinful didntn

[swift sky]

compare to NF arms logs

[misty bough]

The venthyr warriors are literally just waiting and farming renown

[slow marsh]

Someone save us

[obtuse robin]

so outlaw or sub for sylvanas is what i gathered from all this

[dusty garden]

This has nothing to do with outlaw dude

[white kettle]

Still gonna play sin just because I like it more lol

I just parse high anyway.

[sudden brook]

yeah im just a person who likes to discuss stuff

[misty bough]

What you gathered from all this is that fury is the worst spec in the game and that enhancement shamans are gonna megaoutdps them

[sudden brook]

if ppl are talking about obedience here ill come

[oak radish]

Do we have someone like warriors Archimtiros, that devs listen. So he can speak to devs to revert deathspike nerf similar to Archimtiros case between ST and MT situations.

[sudden brook]

joppig i literally didnt say that at all

[winged basin]

Deathspike doesn’t need reverted

[misty bough]

[winged basin]

Outlaw rogues were doing like 20k sustain

[swift sky]

if fury bad dps doesnt mean its the shittiest dps

[white kettle]

Enhanced is dead

My favorite spec always abandoned. qq

[sudden brook]

all im saying is "fury isnt that good at the moment, and sinful doesnt even seem like the play on every fight, meanwhile both rogue, and obedeince would be used on every single fight while rogue is already top tier"

fury could be nuts with sinful

totally possible

i think rogue will be stronger either way

[delicate bone]

stop saying this lol

[misty bough]

Just @ me the next week when fury venthyrs got their leggo with new logs

[slow marsh]

Yeah deathspike needed to not flurry to make it balanced. Which was hard to do I guess so they nerfed the whole leggo around the spec

[next solar]

Just go NF Arms ezpz

[fervent path]

Eh being goods not good enough, I wanna be nuts too

[misty bough]

Ill be here laughing

[slow marsh]

Stop proving it to be true and I will

[sudden brook]

sinful surge is buffing a mid/bottom tier (at the moment)
obedience is buffing a literal top tier spec (at the moment)

[whole mason]

Can we craft Rank 5 leggo on 3rd weeek?

[sudden brook]

what am i even saying thats wrong lol

who cares what discord sticker i have on my name

[delicate bone]

he dmd me the same lol

[sudden brook]

i can add the sin role if that makes u feel better

[delicate bone]

were literally just saying the truth about why fury needed it to be reverted and everyone is just freaking out about obedience, i dont think anyone is really being "toxic"

[slow marsh]

You're not saying anything wrong

[obtuse robin]

there has only been one person using insults i wont say who though

[slow marsh]

Who the fuck cares about fury

This is rogue discord

[obtuse robin]

mostly corgial

[sudden brook]

ppl in here seem to be

[slow marsh]

Take it to general

Tired of the toxicity in the channel

[swift sky]

thing is even with sinful on fury, fae arms just seems better for all sorts of content not only pure st

[slow marsh]

Same thing yesterday too

Around the same people

[dusty garden]

Dude u are the main source of that right now

[lone wren]

i mean im looking at data from this week on warcraft logs, and most fights warriors are ahead of highest dpsing rogues, and they bring utility, in fights they are behind they are only behind by 300-400dps

[inland hull]

Hey I asked a while back about reviewing logs. Do I just paste the link from warcraftlogs in here?

[delicate bone]

lowkey youre the only toxic one here right now

[sudden brook]

yeah it seems arms is the big winner for warrior either way, which it doesnt even use sinful, or venthyr haha

[misty bough]

@slow marsh this is the new warrior discord fam

[delicate bone]

to be honest

[timid cloud]

WTB mods for chat, this is completely off topic. ):

[lone wren]

and their utility is worth the difference if not more

[sudden brook]

i mean u could be right sands

rogue had 0 utility in tos

and u stacked a million rogues

rogues had 0 utility in EP and rogue was really fucking good

[spice spire]

If the topic is brought up it can be addressed pretty easily, I think that’s a pretty bad faith takes. So it’s not that bad to speak of when addressed

[fervent path]

Imagine being bothered. Doomblade > all! The real question is necro or venth

[sudden brook]

rogues had 0 utility in nylotha, rogue was pretty good

[spice spire]

You can! I’d probably wait until it dies down though

[swift sky]

im keeping an eye on some wf warriors and so far all of them are arms fae for heroic obviously, will see how much will that change next week with sinful

[sudden brook]

cloak, and basically being immune to dumb deaths during prog is a pretty big upside that fury doesnt have

[sturdy bone]

Ye idd

[timid cloud]

We’ve not really had immunity priorities since Tomb when we did KJ & stuff.

[obtuse robin]

but ion said rogues need more !!!

[sudden brook]

yeah but rogue was still brought a lot during BFA

when soaks were pretty irrelevant

[slow marsh]

I guess so, hopefully when I come back it'll be a rogue discord again. Will probs be around the same time the outlaws leave. At least they roleplay their spec well

[sudden brook]

iceblades are u good man

[winged basin]

This has got to be a meme, are you mentally ill?

[white kettle]

Also you didn't have to murder a man like this 😂

[slender berry]

rogue discord doesnt mean you cry about your specc being bad while others are op completly ignoring the reality

[spice spire]

Let’s not just flame each other maybe 😅

[obtuse robin]

i just want rogue has this raid thing lets bring them

to much ?

[oak radish]

As rogues we should not accept any nerfs with logic etc, because we had a fire mage reality for almost 2 years

[lone wren]

honestly no one was flaming people were having a discussion about warrior nerf getting reverted lol

[sudden brook]

yeah, it should have been

rogue seems fine with or without obedience

[lone wren]

which promoted a discussion about how they are already ahead of rogues on most fights and have better utility

[sudden brook]

the nerf hurts sin more than it hurts sub or outlaw honestly

[lone wren]

so the nerf getting reverted is a bit weird

[winged basin]

I asked one question about whether obed needs reverted cause I liked archies argument for fury, and it turned into this

[spice spire]

Meant more after. The discussion was a okay, meant more along the lines of a few lines above when I said that

[sudden brook]

yeah, and we just fundamentally disagree on how good fury is

[white kettle]

Sin realies on gear and haste more right or am I wrong?

[obtuse robin]

well acordding to the sims in pins outlaw and sin are the same st

am i wrong

[lone wren]

because what happens to other melee classes impacts rogue's raid spots as a whole. Yes if you are a top leet rogue player you will have a spot over lesser skilled players but that is not the discussion here

[sudden brook]

not really more than any other spec

well it shoul dbe

[grizzled trail]

Part of me is quite happy with the slight nerf, toying with changing back to necro cause it’s fun

[winged basin]

@sudden brook I do appreciate you clarifying the difference though. Some reason archies tweet RESONATED with me.

[sudden brook]

top 10 guilds in CN were playing with multiple rogue comps

[opal forge]

the Obedience nerf wasn't needed; the devs are running a shit show tbh.

[lone wren]

im o nthe side that it was

[sudden brook]

the world first chiese guild ran 2 outlaw rogues

[lone wren]

when one legendary becomes bis for every situation and every spec it's broken

[sudden brook]

and top 5 us ran a sub rogue

[lone wren]

the problem is overall balance not obi nerf

[timid cloud]

Outlaw was just good on Sire prog too, sin wasn’t taken for a awhile.

[winged basin]

Can I ask a constructive possibly non answerable question please.

[sudden brook]

rogue was terrible in CN

[obtuse robin]

yea but arnt outlaw rogues different in china

[sudden brook]

probably the worst its been in a long time

and u still could get away with bringing rogue

[sudden brook]

common misconception

[spice spire]

Sin was dog in CN until like a few weeks before 9.0.5

[lone wren]

if the same logic was applied to every spec/class then yes, but when they only apply balance logic to rogue and ignore it for some other classes people started to get annoyed

[maiden plaza]

or other legendaries just suck

[timid cloud]

Yeah. Sub was a gas lit spec that was dropped a week later.

[dusty garden]

Outlaw was garbage on sire what are u talking about

[sudden brook]

nah outlaw was "fine" on sire

[bright turret]

if you were able to get a raid spot in CN, you're going to be more than fine this tier

[sudden brook]

it does really good phase 2 and 3 damage

its just useless in 1

[timid cloud]

It was taken. Because it had cleave.

[spice spire]

Nerfed legendary ruined it for the spec tbh

[winged basin]

my Raid Leader told me I need to swap back to necro sin for raid how do I explain to him obed is still going to be really strong on the fights where Doomblade isn’t.

[lone wren]

2+2=4 and 6-2 also = 4 doesn't matter how you got about it, you land on 4

[white kettle]

Outlaw struggled only because of lack of burst damage

[sudden brook]

p much

[white kettle]

But had good sustain

[oak radish]

Warrior discord representatives : Fights for their well being ,
rogue discord repsentatives : WE are cool man, WE ARE BEST all the time.

we had fire mage for all years, sometimes being op spec is not a problem for blizz but somehow we cant accept it. I want rogue to be top and op spec. Since we bring no buff no utility. I wish we had someone to reach blizz adn revert nerfs for deathspike and obedience like Archimtiros did

[obtuse robin]

outlaw rogue in china always atleast gets 2 buufs with rtb

[spice spire]

Just tell him to look at the legendary again and show him your flag damage without CD

[sudden brook]

this isnt true

[spice spire]

Reduction

[opal forge]

It won't.

[obtuse robin]

ohh

[sudden brook]

its just a meme that gets spread around due to gambling laws over seas

[white kettle]

Outlaw is just too punishing when you have to do mechanica or burst.

[fervent path]

This topic has honestly just made me feel obedience and venth assass is just a headache, im stying necro 😂

[scenic root]

Why does your RL care about your cov and legendary.

[drowsy parcel]

why is your raidleader manhandling peoples covenants

[winged basin]

Wym

:))

[azure bronze]

Rofl it will

[scenic root]

That's a guild I would drop fast

[obtuse robin]

outlaw might be better on the more important fights tho

[dusty garden]

I hope you play in a very good guild if your RL tells you which cov to play

[bright turret]

weird that your RL would tell you to switch to necro rather than keep an eye on sub

[grim jay]

people are a headache, not venthyr and obedience

[sudden brook]

rogue was very bad in CN, and ppl still were bringing them to top 10 kills, rogue is positioned to me much much stronger than it was in CN with all 3 specs seeming insanely competitive with each other.

rogue can easily get raid spots in top 200 guilds, as long as you are an outstanding player, u will get raid time nno matter if "fury has rally and rogue doesnt"

rogue currently does have to work more for its raid spot tho i will agree

just being a rally bot, or a raid buff bot is enough to get 100% raid time

[white kettle]

At the end of CN rogue was actually top for single target other than shadow

[sudden brook]

but with rogue u kinda gotta know what ur doing, which i understand

[sudden brook]

that was after sin rogue buffs which didnt happen until 905, which is "after prog" for most people

[lone wren]

thats true for every class, yes a better player will always win over lesser skill player. How that is not the point of discussion when speaking class balance

[tulip halo]

Hi all, i didnt play assassin for years and I cleared last 2 days 5/10 HC. Is there any easy way to find out how to improve deeps/rotation?
I was quite surprised that i was 6th dps still scoring gray parses.... (only did around 5k)

[lone wren]

that's a really silly thing to bring up in that context

[strange python]

I've been playing outlaw. Time to suck ass as ass KEK

You can be a blue parse lock and get a CE spot, but you have to purple and know all mechanics on rogue. I find it funny to be held to a standard rather than get the handicap.

[timid cloud]

Rogue can feign the bombs on painsmith prog taking no damage, fury can’t. dead fury warrior or alive rogue??? You make the choice.

[lone wren]

of course i'd take aff warlock right now over a shitty shadow priest who is dead all the time lol no shit

[white kettle]

That is true.

[lone wren]

doesn't mean aff warlock is in a good spot

[winged basin]

We didn’t get CE last tier, but he saw me and the other rogue talking about obed nerfs and said he recommends going back necro

[sudden brook]

because thats how wow opperates, not every guild has an infinite well of 99 parsing of every spec in the game

if this were the case, every top tier raid team would be running identical comps

[obtuse robin]

LOL

[lone wren]

right but that is irrelevant when discussing class balance

[bright turret]

are you guys stressing about rogue util this tier in a top 10 guild or something

[sudden brook]

well it should be becuase balance only exists in a vacuum

[bright turret]

were you benched all of CN?

[grim jay]

well it depends. if the only reason behind the class balance discussion is the person/s being worried about their raidspot somewhere, it is valid. 😄

[winged basin]

That’s why I don’t understand how I explain to him Venth rogue will likely still preform higher than Necro

[bright turret]

rogues are so good right now compared to CN its night and day

[sudden brook]

but people like me, seli, lok, tisu exist who kind of just get into SS tier guilds even tho "rogue is terrible compared to warrior"

[tulip halo]

Ok maybe now wasnt right time to ask lol.....

[timid cloud]

I was on rogue because it was dogwater for sub. ): I cry...

[azure bronze]

literally the later fights the obed leggo wil be insane

[kind jacinth]

serrated bones conduit or lethal poison for pvp ?

[strange python]

It's worthwhile to talk about the fact that rogues have no utility, regardless of current strength, though.

[sudden brook]

if you enjoy rogue, and are exceptional at rogue, you will 100% get raid time

[azure bronze]

to just gain more flags off

[sudden brook]

it doersnt have a raid cd

[bright turret]

you dont even have to be exceptional, just don't die to mechanics (which rogue is good at) and do decent damage

[sudden brook]

it has cloak, feint, basically immune to dumb deaths during prog due to cheat

and ddpending on the damage source, MNP is actually good lol

[winged basin]

He saw our other rogue as necro win on the nine and eye and said go necro I think lmao

[strange python]

It's worthwhile to repeat that rogue could use a buff or raid CD. Tuning changes, but core spec mechanics are stickier.

[lone wren]

ok for example a sin rogue i have seen doing 24+ keys, there are a few, but there is no denying outlaw is a better spec for M+. Just because some pull it off doesn't mean it;s optimal. When raid leaders on a grander scale of the game are selecting their roster they think about what will bring the grater chance of success and has smaller chance of failure

[cobalt urchin]

So even with the nerfs obed is still stronk. For sin/sub should I lean more into venth or stay necro?

[bright turret]

best thing you can do is be decent at all 3 specs

[timid cloud]

Yeah. Some say The Nine is kind of a good fight for Necrolord, since you can pad it with double SBS & CT...

[sudden brook]

well yeah but again, raid leaders dont have 99 parsing players of every spec to pick from

[low oar]

How does everyone feel about assa in M+? I'm trying to make it work but I feel like outlaw just does more in every situation

[sudden brook]

so u tend to pick "good players"

most of the time

even if "good players are on 1% worse classes"

[strange python]

Necro sub ain't good. Necro is the consideration if you wanna play sin outlaw

[grim jay]

just tell him that you are playing the class and he should let you handle your stuff, else just gtfo of there and look for a decent guild 😄

[lone wren]

the reason people like to take around 5 melee doesn't mean raids are impossible to do if you have 6 or 7 melee, it's because when a range gets spikes on them they can stay away in a safe spot and keep dpsing,

for example

[cobalt urchin]

I was playing sin/outlaw but saw how much sub is pumping in M+ so thinking about makeing a cov switch

[lone wren]

so saying "but if you are uber leet you will have a spot" is not a valid argument when discussing game balance

[sudden brook]

yes it is

[strange python]

Sure. But isn't it fair to not be happy with the fact that a rogue often has a higher standard? You have to be noticeably better to make up for faults (unless you're in a tier where tuning is very strong like now)

[sudden brook]

because wow doesnt exist in the way you are explaining

[strange python]

For spec faults*

[lone wren]

i personally always take sims with a grain of salt and place more value on real data from fights on warcraft logs

[timid cloud]

It’s good, bank combo points when you go into new packs because of Garrote only doing 1 CP, & you want to get CT out ASAP, so you start with at least 2 CP, then open with x3 garrote into CT immediately then do ruptures.

[obtuse robin]

@strange python ur name is disgusting

[strange python]

Ty

[sudden brook]

i mean i agree, generally speaking rn, specs like warrior, dk, dh, and monk can honestly 70% parse and get into top tier guilds just based on the fact that they bring raid buffs, while rogues kinda need to be extra good to see play

but thats just the way it is

rogue is in a very strong spot numerically

very easy to steal spots from other melee at the moment

with how much damage they do, if you are good anyway

[lone wren]

right and thats the balance issue, of course if you are an exceptional player you will make up the difference but that doesn't mean the game is balanced

[winged basin]

I just want to stress about things that are in my control. Cov seapping every other week is driving me insane.

[sudden brook]

true balance is bad

[odd hazel]

It will never be balanced

[sudden brook]

striving for true balance is also a total waste of resources

[royal lantern]

be a warlock, 3/10, get a "trial" for the tier endboss, grab your CE, guild jump

🙂

[grim jay]

it is indeed not fair if you look at it balancing-wise, but like 99% of the people complaining about that are raiding more "casually" and end the content with like 6 or 7/10 and to get into guilds like that being a decently good player no matter the class is what actually matters

[lone wren]

i also agree with that too, no one wants a rock paper scissors game

[strange python]

I mean I agree. But I think it's fair for people to be upset that they have to put in more work to get a spot.

[timid cloud]

Then don’t. Play what you want & perform. Best thing is to prove someone wrong.

[sudden brook]

rogue is good rn, if ur good player, u can get raid time

[indigo ginkgo]

bring expose armor again

[sudden brook]

thats the bottom line

[lone wren]

that we can agree on

[low oar]

I'm in a guild that usually gets deep into mythic raid and me and our other rogue always top the charts

It's totally doable even for non CE players

[lone wren]

however still doesn't mean we shouldn't push for changes to even out the playing field

[sudden brook]

whether or not "well warrior on paper might be better sometimes in practice because rally exists"

is irrelevant

because thats not how u pick raid comps

u pick raid comps based on players + spec

not specs v specs

[lone wren]

im not talking on paper, im looking at logs on warcraft logs

[sudden brook]

u are but were talking in circles

[lone wren]

]on most fights top warrior dps is higher than rogue right now

forget sims

[strange python]

I feel personally attacked after 9.0

[indigo ginkgo]

bring expose armor again

[winged basin]

Love our other rogue to death, but they are killing me with the comparisons. He’s 227 with gems in every single socket. I am 224 without gems and I am next to him in dps almost every fight and yet still it’s well you should get this this and that from him and it’s like fuck man, I can’t win

[sudden brook]

dude

stop saying sims pelase

nobody in here is saying sims

i havent mentioned sims a single time in this entire channel

why do u keep sayingn "forget the sims"

[lone wren]

you are talking about on "paper"

[sudden brook]

im talking on paper for rally????

[lone wren]

on paper usually talks about simulation results and theories

[sudden brook]

"rally on paper is better than more rogue damage"

[fiery mauve]

wait where has warr been better

[lone wren]

looking at actual practical data from warcraft logs

[sudden brook]

if we look at wcl

rogue is stronger than fury

[obtuse robin]

bro focus on the other prt of that sentance not the sim part

wtf

[lone wren]

and value of a rally to overlap with incoming damage mechanics is not a myth, it is known to save wipes specially early on

[sudden brook]

im aware

[strange python]

Arms is pretty damn close though tbf

Also how do I get my guild to put me in the windfury group over our DHs and Fury warriors...

I've linked that damn spreadsheet a thousand times

[lone wren]

so if your raid can get through a huge raidwide damage mechanic at 10% would they want to get through it as a raid with a rally or care about your 200 higher dps?

[sudden brook]

i dont know how many times i can repeat myself before i give up

[obtuse robin]

oh simulationcraft has new sim out

[fiery mauve]

i joined the discussion late

rip

[timid cloud]

Do more damage than them without it. That’s how I get PI’s over better classes sometimes.

[sudden brook]

no raid leader in the world can pick a raid comp based on an infinite amount of 99 parsing players

[obtuse robin]

rouge still looking good

[sudden brook]

just because "rally is good"

[strange python]

I do.

[sudden brook]

doesnt mean "rogue sees 0 raid time"

rogue should probably get a raid cd in the future

rn, rogue seems fine without a raid cd

[odd hazel]

I mean I always get raid time

[strange python]

I do more raw damage, parse higher, show the spreadsheet that it's better on sin than eye beam/fury, and am worse geared.

[lone wren]

your argument is that a good rogue will have a spot, and im telling you that you are correct. However just because you are a better player doesn't mean the class is balanced. I really don't understand how you are still driving that angle

[flat orbit]

If rogue would get a raid cd in their current state they'd probably nerf our damage and no one would like that either

[timid cloud]

Oh. Idk then. LOL, that’s just bad observation on a raid leaders part.

[sudden brook]

i cant keep repeating the same 5 points so i think were both at an impass

[lone wren]

the point is if you have 3 exceptional players. 1 is rogue and 2 are warriors, right now you' take 2 warriors over 1 rogue/1warrior

[sudden brook]

sure

ur right then

[lone wren]

right THAT was the discussion

[fiery mauve]

thats a great hypothetical

does ur guild do that

[strange python]

Unless the rogue was good and the warrior was bad.

Rogues also do extremely well on the fights this tier.

[timid cloud]

What if you take all 3? I have that situation going on right now.

[azure bronze]

everyone in here is suddenly in world first guilds

[lone wren]

if you had 2 spots obviously :p

if you have room for 3 exceptional take them all lol

[timid cloud]

Ok, thank you.

[sudden brook]

where are these guilds with a bench of 99 parsing players where u can cherry pick the god comp that limit is using

[brazen rampart]

in top 5

[sudden brook]

why are there so many top 5 raiders in here then damn

go kill heroic sylvanas

quit SLACKIN

[strange python]

This point is a dumb one tbh. Even if your guild is US 3000 your raid leader will be doing whatever they can to make progress easier. Granted, if you're in a bad guild you should be able to easily perform better, but point stands.

[fiery mauve]

fun fact

[lone wren]

it's like you are completely missing the pointand at this point we are talking in circles.

[fiery mauve]

there are like as many rogues as warrs logged

how those rogues get spots

bench them for more warriors

[delicate bone]

idc how much people say it, noone wants this game to be completely balanced, at all

[brazen rampart]

how is he missing the point though?

[odd hazel]

Having a warrior won’t suddenly down bosses your guild can’t because you’re a rogue

[sudden brook]

im not missing the point

i fully understand what ur sayinng

its just incorrect based on how it works in reality

[lone wren]

because they are better players, raids have spots for them, not because their class is better

[fiery mauve]

wait

thats his point

LOL

[odd hazel]

LOL

[fiery mauve]

youre more likely

[sudden brook]

u pick players, not classes, outside of literally top 5 guilds

[odd hazel]

[sudden brook]

outside of insanely bad fights

[fiery mauve]

to take the better player

and if youre a better rogue than he is a warrior

[brazen rampart]

but the "goodness" of the class isn't just determined by their raid utility

[lone wren]

if the said rogues gave their raid leader an option to play warrior instead how many of those raid leaders would say "no stay rogue" if they could play warrior at the same level? THAT is the question

[red bloom]

warriors in my guild are spastics that charge the spike balls on painsmith

[sudden brook]

most ppl cant swap from a 99 parsing rogue, to a 99 parsing warrior

[halcyon zealot]

what is your point though

[sudden brook]

with equal gear

[fiery mauve]

this happens a lot in both cutting edge guilds and non cutting edge guilds

[sudden brook]

and equal skill

[timid cloud]

Well, we’re gonna see next week if that stays true. If Rogues are taken over warriors. Since group comps are gonna be shaved by up to 10+ people.

[fiery mauve]

they let u play what u want

[halcyon zealot]

like what are you trying to accomplish with that statement

[primal turret]

I started the expansion as venthyr but switched to necro, how can i check my renow level with venthyr?

[lone wren]

scrol lup and read the discussion lol

[fiery mauve]

youre aruging why would u take rogue when warrior has raid cd

and comparable dps yes?

[low oar]

Watch limit run rogues next week

[brazen rampart]

watch limit run more rogues than warriors

[halcyon zealot]

3/10H andys in here crying about if theyre gonna be able to play their fuckin rogue

[low oar]

LOL

[odd hazel]

It’s you not the class

Honestly

[low oar]

Yeah a good player can always find a raid group

[timid cloud]

There’s no easy way to do it. Check your season 1 Shadowlands Rewind & check the covenant levels, if you hover over that covenant you can see your characters levels of renown in the totals.

[odd hazel]

People were doing mythic as survival hunters

[fiery mauve]

90% of guilds arent going to bench you cause youre a rogue

adn not a warrior

[cyan kite]

Hey I'm 3/10 don't just attack me like that bro

[winged basin]

On a plus side, atleast my RL is talking about maybe taking both of us rogues for mythic prog now?… net win ig?..

[low oar]

Doesnt matter what class you are, if you are a good player you can find a raid group

[strange python]

Imo will depend on how good sub is in reality with sylv daggers. I get the feeling sub will be the play once you get one.

[timid cloud]

True.

[lone wren]

who is 3/10 heroic?

[primal turret]

ty thanks a good choice

[red bloom]

I think id be making new friends if my guild decided to bench me cause im not a warrior

[strange python]

Cries in survival hunter.

[low oar]

If you aren't finding a raid group it's not because you're a rogue

[odd hazel]

^

[low oar]

It's because you suck

[fiery mauve]

idk why yall think rogues would get benched for warriors when theyre going to get benched for ret pallies

[obtuse robin]

such terrible takes

[fiery mauve]

ret pallies are the new hot fire

[spice spire]

Year of the spear BABY

[timid cloud]

Okay not ALL classes. Sorry Survival.

[odd hazel]

Even survival hunters were doing it

[red bloom]

year of the spear!!!
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669352417208565770/862877960443920424/unknown.png

[timid cloud]

Yeah. It’s because they’ll be getting single digit parses. BIG TRUE

[indigo mulch]

Currently assassination is one of the best spec prob, the best spec for melee. Why are people so upset? Even outlaw and sub is preforming well. o_O

[low oar]

We have an assassination rogue and an outlaw rogue in our raid and we are always top 4 DPS

[strange python]

I don't actually understand how the average parse is high on Fate tbh. Are groups not putting their rogues on the possible spinner assignments?

[fiery mauve]

we want rogues to have rallying cry damn it

[indigo mulch]

Oh right sorry.

[strange python]

There's some (possibly baseless) assumptions that sin will fall off as other specs get their covenant legendaries and ScAlInG

[brazen rampart]

it's random who does runes

[low oar]

Make sprint an aoe and gg

[jovial horizon]

none of this would be happening if they had just given us smoke bomb. boosting my warrior now

[strange python]

You can set backups on the WA vs primaries.

[indigo mulch]

Who said assassination don't scale though? o_O

[sonic schooner]

Scaling topic is back

[low oar]

The funny thing is assassination just scales up with more gear so it's only going to get better

[halcyon zealot]

oh fuck, scaling convo.. time to

[strange python]

Oh god I said that as a meme

[timid cloud]

Oh no....

[odd hazel]

Time to leave this stupid conversation now

[red bloom]

venthyr rogues get their cov lego as well as daggie, SURE IT'LL BE GRAAAAND

[timid cloud]

I’m going back to bed then.

[brazen rampart]

scaling

[sonic schooner]

Please add "yea but sub downtime ya know.." in the "scaling topic"

And we re going to have a toptier convo

[frigid kestrel]

Seriously

[brazen rampart]

[frigid kestrel]

Yall troling with this scaling right?

[low oar]

Assassination scales better than any spec imo

[spice spire]

Read above its all trolling - not all trolling that’s poor faith

[sudden brook]

no

[red bloom]

dunno abou that

[ebon bramble]

scaling. everyone's favorite word

[spice spire]

No

[timid cloud]

Yes.

[frigid kestrel]

No It Does Not

[sonic schooner]

Cydone make me some place please, I ll come to sleep aswell

[frigid kestrel]

Thank God

[strange python]

So sad looking at my guardian parse with 213 daggers and full vers/mastery gear :(

[brazen rampart]

any scalers? 📈

[red bloom]

it scales well but then you look at warriors priests and locks

[sudden brook]

scaling is a meme buzzword

[strange python]

???

[strange python]

Why you calling zandalari cat a meme

[icy dock]

why is zoldyck the worst legendary in pure st

[sudden brook]

because it does less damage than the other options

[brazen rampart]

[obtuse robin]

dont warr's start expansions historicly slow because of scaling

[strange python]

Was a joke about them having scales.

[odd hazel]

Because it doesn’t do anything for the majority of the fight

[odd hazel]

[spice spire]

Had to dig deep for this one

[strange python]

How2parse with 213 daggers and no phial

[obtuse robin]

lol

[sudden brook]

no

warrior does bad at the start of the epxac because warrior is undertuned

and then it gets buffed/borrowed power

and then its good

sin didnt get good from 90 to 91 because of scaling

sin got good because it got a 25% damage buff

[obtuse robin]

idk dog

[indigo mulch]

Aura buffz

[obtuse robin]

i just read u give a take on clas sbalance that didnt make any sense to me

[strange python]

I mean some specs DO scale better than others. It's just irrelevant compared to balance.

[indigo mulch]

[brazen rampart]

sounds like they just scaled up by 25% imo

[obtuse robin]

but idk im dumb

[brazen rampart]

[spice spire]

Everyone scales with buffs - turns out. Hard to not when you get +25% aura

[strange python]

Scaling is less impactful than abuse of trinkets, weapon effects, fight mechanics, and balance.

[red bloom]

I just want to blast the meters with me mage mates, is that so much to ask?

[brazen rampart]

you can already do that though

[sonic schooner]

Yea but are aura buff a scaling?

[strange python]

What's the thinking on doom vs obe for next week

[sonic schooner]

[strange python]

I see the pins.

[sonic schooner]

That's my thinking

[chilly viper]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[strange python]

There's more to making a decision about what to build than a flat damage number in a pin, friend.

[jovial horizon]

do you want to ask a more specific question then?

[strange python]

Otherwise we'd all be playing bigsim fury ;)

[timid cloud]

Doom on most situations, mayhaps. Might make Obidience to just play Sub for some fights / Bursty fights for Sin, like maybe Guardian.

[strange python]

The two are close enough together that the value of obe on MT and as multispec might outweigh the miniscule gap. Surely people have thought about that.

Also. Could we cause a collective aneurysm by asking about the value of raid CD high simming fury warriors and their scaling, or if sin downtime OP will be better?

Bring out all the memes in one question

[delicate bone]

why do productive conversations always turn to degeneracy lol

[cobalt urchin]

#justInternetThings

[balmy condor]

yeh

[delicate bone]

true lol

[balmy condor]

welcome to the internet

[delicate bone]

good morning 🙂

[lone wren]

i mean if your class is not balanced, the understanding here is, you take your class to a casual guild and flex over the casuals and beat their dps and claim your class is fine.

[delicate bone]

what

[lone wren]

any discussion to be hand outside of that logic is dealt with absolutes.

[fiery mauve]

damn

bench all rogues

[lone wren]

if you say rogue is not balanced, it means you cant find raid spots.

[spice spire]

[delicate bone]

i dont think this is what it means at all, i also think rogue is pretty well balanced right now, very strong across all 3 specs

[lone wren]

apparently discussions cannot be had, even when parties are agreeing on the points lol

[terse ice]

rogue will most probably get nerfed next week? what do you think?

[lone wren]

before everyone got into a fight with each other, we were not saying rogue is useless and it's a dead class. We were saying given equal player skill is there a point based on current data from warcraft logs to bring a rogue over a warrior

that was all we were discussing

[cobalt urchin]

only if we enjoy it XD

[lone wren]

sudden;y it turned into "you're bad, thats why you dont get raid spots"

[strange python]

Spend a day in the balance druid discord and you'll never complain about this place again.

[delicate bone]

No im completely aware

[lone wren]

no one was talking about raid spotsd

[sudden brook]

and for the 20th time, u dontn draft raid comps like that

[delicate bone]

i was here from the start

[sudden brook]

spec balance doesnt exist in a vacuum

[fallen arch]

Hehe round 172627 of the same discussion, lets go

[ebon bramble]

im still surprised assassination is so high up in the logs right now lol. i expected top 10 but not currently at the top

[strange python]

Maybe. Maybe not. Sin performs worse on the later fights than the first fights, which might be an indication of gear/brute forcing. Sin also does not get huge value out of a covenant legendary that will increase its value like others.

But blizzard isn't always smart.

[lone wren]

i just dont understand how you can argue with class balance when your only point is "well the person playing the overtuned class is not as good of a player as i am therefore my spec is balanced and fine"

[sudden brook]

okay explain to me how you define balance

[ebon bramble]

90% of the time, not so smart. 99% of the time, questionable balancing choices

[strange python]

Yeah.

[ebon bramble]

right now they're at 100% of the time shit story telling

[strange python]

I would personally think sin nerfs are too fast of a reaction to early boss kills before most get their legendaries. But blizzard is also dumb, so maybe.

[lone wren]

balance should be based on certain game principles, which have been tried and tested over 20 years of mmo data. Tier 1 dps classes usually bring no utility and compensate with extra damage, tier 2 dps classes bring in a bit of utility to make up for their lack of dps vs tier 1, tier 3 dps classes bring a lot of utility etc

[sudden brook]

if ur going to see raid time on a spec, is that not balanced

[south belfry]

Hold on a minute did i get this right

[fiery mauve]

yeah and hybrids should do no dps

[lone wren]

single target focus class should by design do more single target damage than a class that is supposed to be cleave specialist

design theories behind balance is stuff like that

[south belfry]

The Warrior legendary that is 40% upgrade to them, got its nerf reversed

[ebon bramble]

this so much. too bad blizzard cant get their head out of their ass to understand this. so dumb.

[sudden brook]

it isnt a 40% dps gain

[south belfry]

But a rogue legendary that was 8% stronger got nerfed

[sudden brook]

obedience was a 12% dps gainn

[ebon bramble]

its 15% dps gain not 40% O_O

[sudden brook]

sinful is like 14% and obedience was 12%

[odd heath]

40% the giga outlier lol

[strange python]

12% isn't that big in the context of all classes to be fair.

[sudden brook]

if ur gonna be mad dont just make up numbers

[ebon bramble]

the smallest outlier gets nerfed. the two biggest ones dont get any lol

[sudden brook]

because sinful isnt an outlier

sinful is fine

[strange python]

Boomies and mages get much bigger legendaries.

[lone wren]

balance principles are not relevant to player skill

[ebon bramble]

you talking about the balance druid legendary right?

[jovial horizon]

have yall who are saying rogue isn't balanced gotten benched or nah?

[lone wren]

so trying to argue about player skill in a discussion about balance principles is not relevant

no matter how much you shout or insult others

[fiery mauve]

are we saying rogue isbalanced

or not balanced

[sudden brook]

sinfuyl ysteria is op

[delicate bone]

story is fine

[strange python]

LOL

[ebon bramble]

story is fine, learn to play

[strange python]

Sky with the "I'm just going to disagree with the obvious truth to be a contrarion"

[south belfry]

Right it was the druid legendary that was fucking broken

[fiery mauve]

story is told very bad in game

very very badly

[delicate bone]

i mean i like the story

i like the patch

shoot me

[south belfry]

But still its crazy its untouched and its so much ahead of everything

Then theres obedience thats couple % ahead and it gets the nerfbat

[ebon bramble]

to each their own. its like anti vaxxers. everyone has a choice.

[ebon bramble]

its cause they have rogues

[fiery mauve]

likely cause rogues were doing well without obedience

super well

[ebon bramble]

going to be hilarious if guilds start stacking balance druids for the 50k bursts

[south belfry]

Could be, but doesnt explain the balance shit

[ebon bramble]

and then blizzard be like "its balanced, STFU"

[south belfry]

Its been op whole expansion

[delicate bone]

im not allowed to have a positive opinion on the game/story without being crucified?

[south belfry]

Then they switch from another op shit to another

[strange python]

I think blizzard was too quick on obedience since so many specs will catch up to sin next week when they get their legendaries. But blizzard does stupid shit and sin will still be fine overall.

[spice spire]

Outside of the bugs (expected from a conversation we had before) I’m pleased with the patch as well

[lone wren]

well you can't eve get obi yet

there is no real data other than ptr and sims

[spice spire]

Not a huge fan of story, but haven’t really been since wod

[lone wren]

and i personally dont care for the nerf, i expected it to happen

[spice spire]

No shame In enjoying stuff though

[bleak sedge]

tbh korthia is kinda lame but the raid is insanely fun compared to cn

[delicate bone]

theres definitely things that couldve been better, but this outcome was 100% expected and not surprising. Im very interested to see what happens next honestly

[lone wren]

important thing is, rogue is not a dead class right now

if player skill is good enough, it can do well in raids.

[obtuse robin]

sands is just making sense idk what else to say

[fiery mauve]

but thats every class

[lone wren]

it was pretty bad in first half of CN, specially sin

[spice spire]

I kind of am - won’t spoil, didn’t like the ending of raid story but. But yeah, overall way better than what I expected

[bleak sedge]

affli ded

[fiery mauve]

thats a spec

not a class

[strange python]

Sin was going to naturally fall from top to 3rd-ish after leggo week, but may be a little more now.

[lone wren]

we are talking in sin channel :p

so my conversation is always biased towards state of sin

[bleak sedge]

im hyped for obedience

[lone wren]

me too, even after nerf being able to line it up nicely with vendetta is huge

and gonna feel really nice

[bleak sedge]

finally a leggy that atleast changes a bit in rota

Dooomblade and zoldyck do nothing for gameplay at all

[spice spire]

Altimore’s dogs would like a word with you

[obtuse robin]

i like outlaw to but another tier with celerity zzzzzzzz

[sonic schooner]

tiny toxic blade is the real go

[obtuse robin]

give me obi

[spice spire]

TTB truthers

[bleak sedge]

tbh i think toxic onslaught would be really really fun aswell

[odd hazel]

No fun

Only vampire

[obtuse robin]

is there a way to remove parses from warcraft logs that have pi

[bleak sedge]

dont think so

[odd hazel]

They show if they have PI

Just ignore them

[obtuse robin]

yea i know but a drop down ranking all non pi would of been cool

[odd hazel]

Yeah it would

[lone wren]

it's funny because EQ2 used to have so many group/raid/single target buffs that impacted the dps, you had to lost all your bufs and even group composition when you posted logs

wow never had that until PI

[bleak sedge]

seems like necro and venth are pretty split atm in logs. A bit more venth though

[odd hazel]

You can be either and be fine

[lone wren]

and i honestly dont know how to feel about it, on one hand the coordination between people encouraging teamplay for optimal performance makes mmos more fun ....but most people on the internet are well ..people and coordinating with 99% of population is aids

[bleak sedge]

yep i just think thats a huge success for blizz to have 2 covs viable on assa 😄

[sonic schooner]

i liked it more before 9.0.5 when everything was viable so we could be anything and play all the 3 specs in any kind of content 😔

[obtuse robin]

rogues sucked b4 9.0.5

[sonic schooner]

by viable i mean it was something like 150dps diff between the top and the bottom one

[sturdy bone]

And be outperformed

[bleak sedge]

isnt assa atleast okay in all kinds of content ?

[sonic schooner]

well, i wsnt sin before 9.0.5

[bleak sedge]

Maybe not pvp but pve content

[obtuse robin]

good in pvp to

new pvp talent

[odd hazel]

I mean we should just be happy we are the only class@basically to have all 3 specs be good

[sonic schooner]

killing a monk heal through bubble with the new hemotoxin thing

kreygasm

[bleak sedge]

inb4 blizzard killing sub again XD

[odd hazel]

Using my name in vein

[odd hazel]

I was shocked they didn’t tbh

That they handed the nerf for obed so well

[sonic schooner]

9.0 prepatch deja vu

[spice spire]

Different

This was a nerf, while the 9.0 prepatch change was a bug fix

[bleak sedge]

i mean sub is pretty bad in logs on MAX and 99 perc. I dont think the raid fits the spec well with that much movement

[odd hazel]

On farm sub will be crazy

[sonic schooner]

u cant watch sub logs rn

they dont have their leggo

[red bloom]

sub fits well but I cant be bothered swapping specs between fights atm tbh

[lone wren]

most of the fights suit sin over sub right now based on heroic data

somethings to consider though is value of priority damage.

[bleak sedge]

a lot of movement will always favor sin since we have like 5 things ticking XD

[lone wren]

and rogues are king of that,

[kind skiff]

Guys do you think necro is still gonna be as good as venthyr after the new venthyr legendary?

[bleak sedge]

kinda rip for affli that dots arent their primary dmg anymore. They would be op op

[lone wren]

it doesn't look pretty on logs at first glance, but priority damage and boss damage in certain fights where aoe on swarm adds is a bit of a fluff counts a lot

[bleak sedge]

yes Especially since doomblade performs better even on venth

According to sims

im just getting obedience because its good for m+ aswell

[lone wren]

something to consider for obi also is fights that have "dance" phases, where youare not constantly damaging the boss

[kind skiff]

I do M+ quite often as sin as well but I dont think it is gonna be the new BiS legendary for M+

[lone wren]

and stuff is refreshing, being able to line up flag and vandetta when boss becomes active again has a lot of value

[bleak sedge]

dungeon slice currently looks like it is

although zoldyck is way easier to use correctly

[kind skiff]

I agree

[bleak sedge]

and since the dmg diff inst that high zoldyck probably performs better becasue of that

[lone wren]

eh zold is good on fortified weeks on higher keys

it loses a lot of value when your fire mage or warrior etc are executing adds in a dungeon

i think zold sims higher than it performs in practice in M+

but thats just me lol

[balmy condor]

[lone wren]

by higher keys i mean fortified 18+

[bleak sedge]

i think in the end it doesnt matter that much just like doomblad or obedience in raid wont really matter

[strange python]

Something is wrong with my burst window after the initial pull it makes no sense to me I get my 4-5 CP envenom within MA window but there are no spikes at the 4 or 6 minute mark

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vDYVJLkjTNftCKn7/#boss=0&difficulty=0&type=damage-done&source=13

[balmy condor]

there's spikes right there

[lone wren]

does the sim for zold take into consideration group damage in dslice? how does it factor in approx how long mobs stay alive between 30% to 0 etc

[strange python]

yeh but they are small

and im not sure why

[sudden brook]

sims do work yes

[balmy condor]

it doesn't take group into consideration, it just goes 100-0 based on your damage

but your reasoning on "oh but when mobs hit 30% the rest of my group BLASTS"

is pretty whack

[lone wren]

how much does this impact zold's performance in reality vs what we see on sims?

[balmy condor]

0

[visual prairie]

18+ mobs and 10+ mobs live for approx 30% of their life below 30%

it's a percent

[balmy condor]

it's 0 difference

[ripe saddle]

Anyone got soem weakaura recommendation like all in 1

[bleak sedge]

Looks fine to me

[balmy condor]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[visual prairie]

your benefit is basically the same. yeah, the 30% - 0 takes longer

but the 100%-30% does too

[ripe saddle]

ty!

speaking of Afenars group, anyone know if its upto date with 9.1?

[balmy condor]

more cooldowns on pull = more damage
less cooldowns later on = less damage

[strange python]

I should spike back up higher than that tho I thought it feels weird

true

[bleak sedge]

For example this are my logs for nhc guardian spikes just arent that high compared to the first one (which included BL tbf)

[ripe saddle]

"Hey Afenar! Big fan of your packs, been using them for most of my classes for a long time now. I noticed that with the new Flagellation (Venthyr covenant ability) iteration, the Flag-weakaura has broke and no longer functions as it should as it has not been updated in your pack."

[sturdy bone]

Venth or necro ? German is hard to read

[bleak sedge]

venth

[strange python]

Thats my Guardians pull

and kill

[bleak sedge]

venth or necro?

[strange python]

Venth

this was normal too but

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vhA4mWbzY3CndJB6/#fight=8&type=damage-done

im honestly just not sure what happened

[tidal gorge]

Did you lust during the first spike? Also, until we get obedience, flag and vendetta don't really line up after the pull

(Unless fight is long enough obv)

[strange python]

yeh we lusted on pull

[bleak sedge]

yep thats why we have so many small spikes and not fewer big ones

[tidal gorge]

I'm looking forward to obedience for that reason alone. Lining up cds and having massive spikes is fun 😛

[bleak sedge]

true !

20 sec ssj and then back to normal 😄

[azure flare]

even longer!