assassination

[grim jay]

@marble hemlock do you expect blizz to buff sub if they nerf obedience tho? 😄

[faint harness]

so yes currently we have options, but can they keep that up when the evidence across all other classes is that theres 1 outlier in all of them

[marble hemlock]

it does not, no. all 3 rogue specs saw play over the course of SL so far in all types of content. except maybe outlaw pvp.

[faint harness]

and they seemingly doesnt seem to care that other classes will just play that 1 legendary and thats it

[rapid flame]

It really does, are you high or something

[final star]

If you been playing sub past like week 4 you are cracked

[steel bane]

I'm curious on what Max said about Obedience. @limber lion Pls.

[faint harness]

i am cracked

[final star]

[half moat]

Ooo sims saying Venthyr looking good for ST and M+.

[grim jay]

havent ever seen someone in another discord complaining about outliers being too strong tbf. they just go with it 😄

[marble hemlock]

because flexibility is hampered when one choice is so much better than the others, that no sane person woudl decide to play something that is significantly worse. significant is in the eye of the beholder ofc, but once things move towards more than 2-3% difference, a consensus usually forms that that one thing is "the best"

[half moat]

Nice, after the bone spike leggo nerf I won't feel so pressed to stay Necro

[limber lion]

Nothing much, he just wanted to show his stream why "all rogues are going Venthyr" and goes to show what Obedience is

Didn't say "it's op and should be nerfed" or anything like that.

[marble hemlock]

because those classes either only have 1 dps spec like hybrids, or they tend to be used to only ever having 1 viable spec. rogue was never in that position.

rogue isnt like all the other classes, never has been

[final star]

I'd like to see a nerf to arcanes legendary to bring it into line with the 4% increase the next best provides please

[faint harness]

Who really thinks outlaw and sub was viable in 9.0.5 tho

compared to assa

[rapid flame]

delusional people

[final star]

In raid anyway

[faint harness]

and thats a trend which has been going since early BFA

[marble hemlock]

idk dude, outlaw was still doing great numbers

[faint harness]

that you play assa for raids

[marble hemlock]

in raids

[rapid flame]

xD

[faint harness]

lots of otps play outlaw, thats true

[marble hemlock]

sub fell behind ofc, as it tends to do

[faint harness]

but why does it tend to do that

[rapid flame]

yeah outlaw great choice of dps in CN

[faint harness]

it gets kneejerk nerfs

to its good shit

[marble hemlock]

because the core gameplay isnt well suited to high pressure environments

[faint harness]

because ppl complain

[final star]

Blizzard are so scared of sub being good since zuul

Hate to see it

[marble hemlock]

what nerfs happened to sub since SL release, kneejerk nerfs, that made it not viable?

[faint harness]

and once again, we have something which is arguably an average legendary if you look across the class spectrum and again ppl are complaining and prob again it will get nerfed and not see light.

We are actively just putting down things that make it good

[marble hemlock]

can we stop with the "average legendary when looking at other classes" as if somehow one legendary boosting dps by 20% is good design and something we should all desire?

[faint harness]

No but thats the game we play

[marble hemlock]

it really isnt

[faint harness]

the reality

one thing will be cookie cutter

thats the game

[fleet whale]

you guys are making it seem like sub is gonna be some busted ass spec in 9.1 with this leggo,
looking at sims, it isn't in front of sin by that much

[faint harness]

they just buffed everything else, you could call it indirect nerfs

[marble hemlock]

no we dont. cause we dont play a class where the only way to make it viable is to have a temporary power increase so freaking massive, that it is the ONLY reason that spec or class is viable. why do you think they have to play a different spec almost every tier, while you can comfortably play any rogue spec unless youre doing cutting edge progression?

[grim jay]

its prolly rather because people prefer having one unbalanced choice compared to the other options than being bottomtier with choice of stuff. 😄

[viscid spear]

What are we discussing?

[lone wren]

i agree with you, there is a high possibility it will be nerfed before mythic week opens for exactly the reasons you have mentioned. It seems very unintended, if by an off chance it doesn't get the nerf by mythic week, then we will all go venth for a month or two until it does get nerfed lol

[rapid flame]

apparently all rogue specs have been viable in all content and one of the most balanced classes throughout the expansions PepeLaugh

[marble hemlock]

why do you think rogue has consistently been a viable and even strong progression class, while other classes shift in and out of the realm of playability seemingly at random based on what patch theyre in? because rogue balancing has always had a different approach than other classes. thats a good thing.

[final star]

How many rogues were in rwf progression in CN

[limber lion]

I'm just honestly surprised you're still talking about this.

[marble hemlock]

we dont have sweeping massive changes happening to us every other patch

[limber lion]

When does it stop, papi?

[faint harness]

Yea i am just going to concede that we will agree to disagree on this point

[final star]

[grim jay]

30 mins

[fleet whale]

i say this as a sin main, but i don't think obedience should be nerfed

[regal cape]

Tbh I enjoyed playing all three specs in CN and I thought others did as well 🤷‍♂️

[viscid spear]

No delays yet?

[grim jay]

might come to an end earlier than expected

[south belfry]

or later who knows

[rapid flame]

you can enjoy it, doesnt change the fact that 2/3 rogue specs was borderline dogshit for the majority of CN @regal cape

[grim jay]

as push closed it basically

[marble hemlock]

rogue was never bottomtier with choice though. last time rogue was bottom tier, was tier11

[viscid spear]

Well I better get on

[marble hemlock]

and even there we had niche uses on certain fights

[echo geyser]

[buoyant mauve]

sub rogues going under on hc V&T 😄

or staying on wind platform alone in throne

[marble hemlock]

or being a gouge bot

[viscid spear]

I literally just woke up and laying in bed, idk wth we're arguing about.

[faint harness]

the ability should be called self-flagellation tbh

[coral hazel]

ew

[regal cape]

Idk I played sub for prog till slg, did pretty fine. Downed slg as outlaw and swapped sin for execute on MDeni. Damage was no where near bottom tier. Just not top of the pack

[chilly oasis]

any notorious gouge abusers

[fleet whale]

idk, i say keep obedience the way it is, even if it' s a little overtuned, let people have fun

[sick cairn]

anyone know if 235 leggos crafted in 9.0 will have sockets if u turn them into leggos?

[fleet whale]

those silly mechagon bracers were far more broken in BFA yet they never got nerfed for fire

[hollow escarp]

yes

they do

[south belfry]

Cant have melee having fun

[grim jay]

there was no reason to bring a rogue at all in cn, that's basically as good as being bottomtier

[rapid flame]

@regal cape sure, that may be the case in the enviroment you played in

[marble hemlock]

i just fully expect people to lose their shit when obedience inevitably gets nerfed. its not a question of if, its a question of when. and when that time comes, id like people to not mald over the decision, but instead realize that rogue is still very much viable, all covenants have their upsides and downsides, and that you have more flexibility with just one character progression system like legendaries or covenants, than other classes have in all of them combined

[final star]

No reason =/= couldn't bring

It's a very different thing

[marble hemlock]

you brought a rogue if they were a good player

[faint harness]

assa will be viable*

[marble hemlock]

which is the only thing thats needed

[faint harness]

after obedience nerfs

[grim jay]

do you really care why they deny you ?

[regal cape]

If obedience gets nerfed I just swap back to bone boy and sling spikes

[marble hemlock]

when you move into "its a good player but his class is so shit we cannot justify fielding him" you have a problem

[fleet whale]

i'm staying vampire boy no matter what lol

[final star]

I haven't been declined 🤔

[faint harness]

and then we can all go back to our ancestral home of necrolord and pretend we got balanced covenants

[grim jay]

in an optimal environment yes

[arctic hare]

agreed

[hasty crater]

@marble hemlock i agree but the covenant problem comes in, people swapped just for that legendary and might have to swap back again. Overall : covenants suck.

[grim jay]

I havent aswell, doesnt mean its not a problem 😄

[sick cairn]

so i dont have to recraft a cape?

[fleet whale]

the main issue with rogues in CN was our complete lack of utility

[marble hemlock]

ive said it before, and ill say it again, knowing full well it will offend people: if you got benched in nathria, it wasnt cause rogue was bad.

[echo geyser]

we still dont know what happened to our dear Bron

[steel bane]

@marble hemlock but hat is just terrible right? Because if you do a somewhat serious progress you will play what it's best and then you'll have to trash your legendary mid progression. Jebaiting sucks

[fleet whale]

our damage was ok, but it didn't make up for being melee and not really brining anything

[viscid spear]

Same, I like it too much to have to grind Necro.
Honestly I should've grinded it a long time ago just so I had it but oh well.

[fleet whale]

and btw do the sylvanas daggers still only work for one rogue per raid

[hollow escarp]

no, I could link you a vod of somebody doing it on ptr but I'm too lazy now. He had a rank4 base item, went to runecrafter and when he crafted the legendary, it had socket

[fleet whale]

plus a love the venthyr gargoyle mount

[grim jay]

still broken in general, just wait

[arctic hare]

Also, do the sylvanus daggers work for both hands? As in do the effects stack with each dagger?

[marble hemlock]

if you raid in the race for world first? sure. if you raid anywhere in the top 50-250 range, losing 2-3% dps by having a "suboptimal" choice is not the reason you will fall behind in progression, it wont be the reason youll be benched, and it wont be the difference in whether you kill the boss or not

[rapid flame]

bring back any utility for rogue and i couldnt care less if it was bottom of the pack

[hollow river]

Valor doesn’t reset til July 6th everyone

[buoyant mauve]

diamond hands from the start when it was dog shit cause I knew it had to get buffed eventually

[hollow river]

Everyone was telling me it resets today ._.

[echo geyser]

we got numbing poison tho and also a 6sec feint

[hexed karma]

well why would i prefer Rogue instead of a DK while there is 3 or 4 melee spots

[rapid flame]

yeah wow

[hasty crater]

@marble hemlock I agree. BUT no matter the rank of ur guild, people nowadays just min max everything. Just the way the game is, and the reason why covenants suck, people will swap for that 1/2%

[echo geyser]

[marble hemlock]

thats not a game-made problem, but a community made one.

at least when it comes to rogue balancing

[hasty crater]

yes and one blizzard has to accept exists

[steel bane]

but why would you pick a subpar choice/

[hasty crater]

which they dont

[marble hemlock]

if we were talking about kyrian vs nightfae hunter early nathria progress? yeah, that was just plain inting to play one over the other. but when you look at rogue tuning, even rn, thats just a different story entirely

[arctic hare]

Because you may enjoy playing something over something else, like how some like venthyr in m+ over necro

[hasty crater]

100% community made, but only blizzard made it worse by making the covenant system this annoying to swap

[steel bane]

people kill for a phial, why wouldn't they get the "free boost" ?

[final star]

Like I consider to be able to play all specs with equivalent ability within my own capability, and I'm just gonna choose the one that I do biggest number with for the situation

[marble hemlock]

because when things are as tightly balanced as they have been for rogue, "subpar" choice becomes very much subjective

[rapid flame]

'meaningful choice' very cringe blizzard smh

[hasty crater]

If u didnt have to grind renown and u put like a cooldown of 1/2 weeks on swapping covenants, the covenant system wouldnt be as annoying and punishing

[hollow river]

I got my first phial last night farming valor. 187 ilvl

[steel bane]

sure, but I'm talking now. With Obedience

[marble hemlock]

ill still play necro

and i dont feel like im inting my raid at all

ill just do more dmg on cleave and less on st than another covenant

[final star]

Play necro sub

[inland hull]

sbs 4 life

[hollow escarp]

it's not that bad to swap though. It's only a real issue if you usually clear the raid in 2 weeks. At that point it is a real issue.

[final star]

[marble hemlock]

because i KNOW that we will never be in a situation where the boss didnt die because i wasnt playing venthyr

[hollow escarp]

but if you clear the raid in a few months, you have time to play each boss with the optimal covenant

[slow tulip]

i picked necro for the aesthetics

fight me :/

[arctic hare]

lol, i can see why you’d do that

[hollow escarp]

[rustic whale]

do not underestimate Fleshcraft in PvE too btw

[marble hemlock]

if the boss doesnt die, its not due to lack of dps. bosses arent designed that way anymore, hard enrages rarely if ever are the reason you dont kill smth, and unless youre literally gear capped due to raiding in a top5-10 guild where there is no way to progress your character because youre spending 16hr a day in the raid, then youre deluding yourself if you think the covenant choice is the only way you and your raid couldve gotten that extra bit of DPS

yeah, you may wipe at 0.1% and blame covenant. or you blame the DPS that died at 5% boss hp and the boss wouldve been dead if that dude survived. probably didnt even use healthstone that idiot.

[echo geyser]

[rustic whale]

i think bis gear rogue will go like 55-60k hp and plus %40 max hp absorb is neat

[arctic hare]

Heh, that’ll be interesting

[nova flax]

Ill bet money that not a single person typing in this discord rn plays at the level where covenant choice matters

Myself included

[marble hemlock]

they dont

[arctic hare]

Indeed

[marble hemlock]

the ones that do, dont need to worry about it as they have multiple characters ready anyway

[echo geyser]

not many ppl are typing

[burnt star]

Wich is why everyone needs to do his utmost best to bring the best possible dammage to progress faster to tend to people personnal error. Its a team fight. Everyone contribution helps toward that goal

By choosing to not be optimal. Thats an egocentrical way imo

[south belfry]

This is still a weird argument to make. People will still always want to try and play optimally

[marble hemlock]

and decisions like what covenant to play typically arent up to the individual in those situations anyway, as instead you fill a certain role/niche with your characters and need to make sure oyu have them all covered

[burnt star]

And not helping the team reaxh a goal

[nova flax]

Ive seen some of the logs of the rogues in here. And their covenant choice is the last thing keeping them from optimal play.

[marble hemlock]

but you can reach that goal. you dont HAVE to be perfectly optimal to reach it. oftentimes, people trying to minmax to the fullest is actively hurting progression, not helping.

especially in an age where encounter design more often than not leads to strategies that require DPS stops

[arctic hare]

Is it bleed management? Energy management?

[echo geyser]

weird take but more dps albeit idk how much actually matters allow for more mistakes in the group

[south belfry]

Yeah no doubt, but if people can get some extra damage from anywhere they will want to do it

[marble hemlock]

it does, ram, until you realize that 3 out of the 4 last bosses in CN for example required DPS stops.

[nova flax]

I personally play venthyr because i like it the most. I got 2800 io this season as a venthyr sin rogue. Cov doesnt matter.

[burnt star]

Well.. in the case where the boss didnt die to 0.1% ans u could have done that extra 0.1% by doing something number shows it to be better. Then yes your decision is self centered and wrong

[nova flax]

A multitude of things really.

[echo geyser]

yeah i mean some hundread dps doesnt seem enough anyways

[burnt star]

And thats right for everyone in said team

Cause in the end. Boss would be dead

And now its not

[rustic whale]

you re gonna stay as vent too for tomorrow? or swap to necro?

[echo geyser]

we gotta ask ourselves does all the other classes have the same thing as we do?

or maybe they have a clear cut cov winner

[marble hemlock]

no. because its asinine to look at things you cannot change on a pull-to-pull basis, instead of looking at mechanical errors and gameplay errors that can be fixed from one pull to the next. youre just trying to blame someone for a choice they made, instead of looking at the bigger picture of just "playing better"

[arctic hare]

True

[nova flax]

Im staying venthyr until the next expansion. I grinded too hard for my party herald title

[marble hemlock]

if you wipe, you didnt wipe due to lack of throughput. you wiped to to players making mistakes. why would a 0.1% wipe suddenly change that analysis?

[arctic hare]

Hahaha, I haven’t touched the party things, is it even worth doin?

[nova flax]

That is a dumb statement. Chances are if a boss dies at that hp everyone in the raid could have done something. Just pull it again and kill it

[marble hemlock]

if you deplete a key, it didnt happen cause you didnt have enough dps. it happens cause someone fucked up and you wiped.

[burnt star]

U are analysing this wrongly . Everyone has a role to play. And everyone can make mistake. If u want to help reach the end goal of killing a boss u want the best possible factor to tend to the variable factor. Wich means personnal.mistake of people in the raid

[nova flax]

Im a title whore so i enjoy it. Its tedious tho. The anima farming especially

[marble hemlock]

500 pulls you wipe to a boss to people making mistakes. then you wipe the 501st time to 50k hp left, and people suddenly start blaming the guy having a covenant that sims 1% worse. thats just dumb, sorry to say.

[arctic hare]

Heh, i still need to farm anima for that oribos portal

[nova flax]

Are you Cutting Edge?

[burnt star]

Ya i am.

[nova flax]

Figured id ask before deciding whether or not to entertain you

[burnt star]

And i played what did the most damage on p3

Despite being lower overall on p1 p2

[arctic hare]

Most people do during that boss

[burnt star]

Cause if that extra 200k means boss is dead.. well so be it

And i expect everyone in the team to do the same

Thats the idea

Yes they are variable

Like people diying to stupidty

[arctic hare]

Especially in mythic level, so it only makes sense that you’d be thinking in this way, but you gotta remember that not everyone is as cutting edge bis gear as you are

[burnt star]

But what u can control is what helps

[rapid flame]

He is in top 1k+ guild x)

[marble hemlock]

and yet all my analysis of my raiding experience has taught me one thing in particular: that dps doesnt matter unless theres a dps patchwerk like encounter, one which we havent seen since krosus in nighthold. if you wipe at low hp, its not cause someone had a bad covenant or legendary, its because we didnt play well enough. i dont focus on things i cannot change, once the 20 people have stepped into the dungeon with the base expectation that what theyre doing is correct, i focus on the things that can be changed from pull to pull.

[modern heart]

b-but.. sludgefist

[marble hemlock]

because it doesnt help progression to focus on things you cannot change. a disconnect in a good pull you cannot change, so theres no read to tear the guy with the shitty ISP apart. a covenant choice you cannot change easily, so i have to work with what i got, and i have to adjust and improvise and overcome to the best of our knowledge with what we have available.

[arctic hare]

He’s kinda got a point

[rustic whale]

inerva %75 push also dps requirement?

[marble hemlock]

by the time most guilds reached sludgefist, it wasnt a dps check

[hollow escarp]

we killed sire with a healer on mobile hotspot

[arctic hare]

Heh, thats always nice

[twin bay]

you guys have a stable internet connection?

[marble hemlock]

most "patchwerk" checks like that arent actually dps checks anymore when the rest of the guilds not actively participating in the RWF by dayraiding etc. get there

[modern heart]

we didnt kill sire 🙂

[bleak valve]

dps is important but mechanics > dps until mechanics are solid

[marble hemlock]

the last few actual dps checks i remember that were still rough when #50-150 guilds got there, were krosus and fetid

[nova flax]

Blank u killed Sire once in a US 300 guild

[modern heart]

dps is importand when you hit enrage

[nova flax]

your covenant does. not. matter.

[burnt star]

See u still reading it wrong and interpretting what im saying wrong

What u say is true. Boss will eventualy die. We all agree with that
What ur wrong in interpreting is would the boss have died faster if u chose the build.that would have done an extra 0.1%
And u can extrapole to everyone in the team. And the answer is yes.

Thats just a basic fact

[modern heart]

just play what you like

[marble hemlock]

just because you say it is a fact, doesnt make it a fact.

[burnt star]

Rofl

[rapid flame]

@burnt star if you are playing in a rwf guild sure, but anything beyond that it really doesn't fucking matter. Especially if you, like youself is playing in a guild that killed Sire last month, being a top 300 US guild

[nova flax]

also ur the one playing necrolord and talking about maximizing p3 sire damage? hush now.

[modern heart]

you'll get outdps'd by a shadowpriest anyways

[marble hemlock]

raidleading and analyzing wipes is not a scientific approach where only one viewpoint is viable

[burnt star]

Who said i was necrolord

[echo geyser]

also lets not forget about kevin guys i dont think hes implemented in sims yet

[pale ibex]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[echo geyser]

maybe necro rises to blast ST

[azure flare]

Calm down

[modern heart]

im nightfae

[viscid spear]

My condolences

[marble hemlock]

just because youre looking at a 0.1% wipe and like to blame the people playing suboptimal legendaries or covenants doesnt mean thats the only correct approach there. id heavily disagree, actually. someone couldve had a bit better critluck and the boss wouldve died.

[arctic hare]

Oh? How is sepsis btw? I read the guides but despite reading what it did it just confused me

[modern heart]

im not actually

[arctic hare]

lol

Okay

[sick scarab]

i am Nighrfae too 🙂

[echo geyser]

[viscid spear]

Got me Nitro, I had to be able to use this Pepee

[modern heart]

imagine being Nightfae

[plush ferry]

you could get nitro for 3 months for free

[rustic whale]

if i would trust blizzard's nerfing strategies i would go for vent. But i don't trust them so Necro would be good. Also i m doing 17 M+ s necro is good. Just to say if you are assassin spec rogue go for vent or necro

[sick scarab]

and i will stay NF lol

[marble hemlock]

ofc its important that everyone makes sure to gear up and prepare as best as they can. but oftentimes there isnt a clear choice for people, and they have multiple ways to approach an encounter

[nova flax]

soulshap

[azure flare]

How??

[hollow escarp]

night fae on xymox

[viscid spear]

I'm no peasant.

[modern heart]

epic store

[plush ferry]

epic

[modern heart]

for 3 months

[marble hemlock]

its all about looking at the entire raid and making sure the important stuff is being taken care off. maybe you need extra dmg on adds, so instead of blasting raw ST you play smth that gives you a bit more cleave. its improvements like these that let you progress faster

[azure flare]

Wtf im om it

Lets goo

[odd heath]

But playing crimson tempest huh? Doesn't seem like u reaaaaaally focused on p3 dmg huh? That juicy p2 padding hmmmmm

[marble hemlock]

once the basic are down and you meet dps checks like killing adds in time for the next spawn or soft-dps checks like sire p1 3rd ravage, theres no further optimization needed, just consistent play.

[elfin valley]

Damn y'all still going

[rustic whale]

bro my RL carried me seeds on Xymog all the time 😄

[plush ferry]

the free nitro offer ended 5 days ago tho

[azure flare]

Crimson tempest is actually decent on sire p3 depending on your uptime

[modern heart]

crimson tempest is better either way becuase sire is moving all the time, stop trolling

[burnt star]

Are u just dumb? P.b damage is shit on p3 cose boss just move so much.

[rapid flame]

@odd heath CT is good in p3, especially when playing zoldyk xd

[azure flare]

Damn roasted him

[modern heart]

imaging playing PB on sire

[marble hemlock]

i do 🙂

[nova flax]

hidden blades gang WYA

[viscid spear]

I'm using it more now but man that duration kills me, having to refresh it

[marble hemlock]

imagine thinking the difference between PB and CT matters 🙂

[arctic hare]

Yes, yes they are

[marble hemlock]

does PB or CT help you survive?

[azure flare]

Any hidden blade users here

[hollow escarp]

I've seen people arguing about CT being better on P3 but they cast it 5-8 times

[modern heart]

yes

[marble hemlock]

no? then it doesnt matter. if people survive in p3, the boss dies.

[odd heath]

Pb in a pure st environment is still better than ct

[rapid flame]

then again, you also had an outlaw rogue who did 400k dmg less than you in p3, so i see where you're comming from @burnt star

[odd heath]

Even with boss moving

[modern heart]

if i have CT on the boss i care about my health instead of spamming other finishers and praying

[shadow tusk]

just survive is such a bad argument tbh

[nova flax]

why? if people live the boss dies.

if your raid lives the second ravage voerlap the boss dies

[marble hemlock]

people are so focused on dps instead of what actually kills an encounter. theres been no tough dps check this entire tier outside of commando burst, which was carried by wildspirits.

[simple wadi]

This argument seems like a justification for carrying people - if I have to account for your damage then that’s the issue, not a covenant

[echo geyser]

u guys ever play leeching poison for raids?

or is it just world content

[nova flax]

cheat death too strong

[modern heart]

i pick it in torghast when there's nothing better

[marble hemlock]

unless your raid has multiple people doing only 80% of the dps they should be doing, you dont have to worry about your own dps. and even then, youre better off helping those people educate themselves to play better, than grind out 40 renown to do 2% more dps yourself.

[hollow escarp]

is it though?

[steel bane]

what if the hunters choose to play venthyr becuase they like it better. What happens?

[shadow tusk]

Obviously, but its used as a counterargument to optimisation, but if you have a well optimised raid it can make a difference of peolpe dying

[azure flare]

Seliathan thing is, not every raid group is of the same strength. You cant just be like >just survive and ull win. There are groups out there that don't operate that way. In the end you can only control yourself not others or their mistakes. So it is completely understandable that people wanna hyper optimize themselves so they can increase their group's success rate as much as possible

[nova flax]

uh. yes.

[arctic hare]

Cheat death is great

[hollow escarp]

[amber sand]

For mythic raiding Necro or Venthyr?

[arctic hare]

I learned this the hard way

[modern heart]

cheat death lets me spam more finishers when im not spec'd into CT

[plush ferry]

elusiveness for thorgast, you can have 100% uptime

[marble hemlock]

the worse the guild gets, the LESS important it is to minimax to the slightest percentage point, as their dps gain from it will be even smaller due to suboptimal play. all the time spent on prepping to the smallest degree wouldve been better spent just sitting at the dummy and practicing the rotation a bit

[nova flax]

both work. i personalyl like venthyr but encro is just as fine

[burnt star]

This guys gets it

[amber sand]

Thanks

[silent fossil]

just join a better guild

[modern heart]

[misty holly]

In my experience Nathria has a lot of mythic encounters that are dps checks.

Doing more dps is a big help.

[hollow escarp]

cheat death is a bit overrated when you die through it

[simple wadi]

Exactly

[marble hemlock]

and im not arguing against hyperoptimization. im arguing against requiring it of everyone in order to succeed, when its been proven time and time again that hyperoptimization is not necessary to kill a boss if everyone is within a few percent of their maximum potential

[arctic hare]

True, but in that situation when you don’t die through it?

[azure flare]

Sure, but taking a better suited talent build and practicing that on a dummy has far more value than using a sub optimal talent build and practicing that on the dummy imo.

[marble hemlock]

and if theyre not, hyper optimization is not the way to get those missing percent. improving gameplay is

[burnt star]

Thered a difference between requiring people to do something. And someone doing what is best for the team

[modern heart]

at the end of the day I think people just wanna blast

[placid wave]

just do more damage and dont die

[azure flare]

Agreed with this tho

[burnt star]

Thats the point

[simple wadi]

Carrying other people so you don’t improve as a group is not what is best for a team

[marble hemlock]

oh for sure, but more often than not these choices arent as binary as "pick the better or worse option", especially when it comes to limitations set by the game, whether its the CD on swapping conduits, soul ash requirements for high ilvl legendaries or covenant restrictions

[azure flare]

True

[burnt star]

Doesnt have to be seen that way rofl

[marble hemlock]

when someone is being presented with a good and bad option, i obviously expect him to take the good one 😄

[simple wadi]

But that’s what you are arguing

[burnt star]

Everyone just nees to do his best. Period

No

Its not

[marble hemlock]

but its rarely that simple

[simple wadi]

Your best is not cov determined

The margin for error in gameplay is waaaay above cov tuning

[burnt star]

In this game right now it is though

Thats the only thing u have pure control

[marble hemlock]

heres a hot take question: if you wanna hyperoptimize to the degree youre arguing, why are you playing rogue and not a better dps class?

[burnt star]

Do u prefer to use a race bike to reach your destination or a cheap bike.

[modern heart]

ye but people want to see a single option so they dont have to think about it, saying just play what you like is something that dosnt sit right for most people because they just wanna blast

[simple wadi]

That’s a false analogy

[modern heart]

hey man, sometimes it's about the journey. not the destination

[burnt star]

Not really. Its a choice u can control

[alpine latch]

I really hope we find out something about the dagger today or tomorrow. It's annoying not knowing

[simple wadi]

Your arguing about 1% dps

Even less

[burnt star]

What u dont control is what u will encounter on the road

[nova flax]

Drblank doesnt like the "just live" argument because he used feint once during his singular mythic sire kill

[marble hemlock]

if you wipe to 0.1% dps, why stop at blaming the bad covenant. why not blame the rogue for not having rerolled mage yet

[simple wadi]

And I’m saying that if you think your 1% is the difference between a kill or not kill - your guild sucks

[modern heart]

there's a saying that goes something along the lines of : do as I say, not as I do

[marble hemlock]

clearly wouldve been better for progression to roll DK or mage than stick with rogue and swap to venthyr when it got buffed in 905

[modern heart]

you can know how it works and still fuck up

[alpine latch]

We had a 60k wipe on HD and I could have avoided it if I had saved Cloak and not used it during an expunge while I had Miasma. Talk about heart breaking..

[burnt star]

U know this discussion since the begining is all about an hypothetical situation

[modern heart]

why are you bashing someone for not playing 100% perfectly

[marble hemlock]

just pull the boss

play the game

and kill the boss

[burnt star]

Where situation a boss would be dead. And b boss isnt dead

[modern heart]

literally just play

[marble hemlock]

and if you fail, repeat at step 1

youre throwing all progress analysis out the window because the wipe was really close to a kill. that is so counter intuitive to raidleading, that i hope youre not actually a raidleader.

[simple wadi]

This isn’t realistic though - this is like believing you missing the last shot of a basketball game loses the game

[marble hemlock]

exactly

[simple wadi]

When tons of missed opportunities contributed to the loss

[marble hemlock]

great analogy actually, ill note that one down

[crisp steppe]

Copium raidleading

[modern heart]

anyways, NA people how's the patch ?

[shadow tusk]

Well what if you optimised so you'd have 2 shots more hit

[proper sage]

not up for like

[elfin valley]

Sooo... How's the weather?

[proper sage]

6 more hours

[modern heart]

oh

[proper sage]

7 actually

nvm

[crisp steppe]

Definitely worth to optimize yourself to some degree, most of it is just playing well when you're killing bosses with 20% more simdps than worldfirst guilds

[proper sage]

ye i mean i looked at seli's logs once

u can def tell he doesnt optimize anything

[marble hemlock]

as an example, we never once cared about our dps on sludge progression. we only cared about surviving until enrage. we knew that we had the dps for the boss, because we were there week 4 of progression, and had much higher gear than guilds that struggled to dps on it in week1. so we never even checked dps requirements or any of the sort.

first enrage pull the boss was at 35% because most people died earlier in the pull. but there was still no reason to worry about dps, because why would we? first time we actually got to the enrage with everybody alive, the boss was at 3%. it died the next pull.

we couldve made all kinds of adjustments beforehand to ensure higher overall dps, and it wouldve made teh fight more complex and harder than just pulling and seeing where we get by just playing the game, instead of worrying too much about dps. worrying about dps is the LAST thing you do, not the first or second or third

[proper sage]

[crisp steppe]

And the playing well is typically a bigger factor

[final star]

You condense that for me boss

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/HSCEb/1fd7113508.png

[proper sage]

on a dead spec nice

[crisp steppe]

Xd

[severe narwhal]

Guys I’m lost from all the arguments! Is venthre a big difference then me to for st

[final star]

Just play what you want and hope it's good

[frosty bridge]

yes but you dont have to be venthyr

So is there a catchup for the lost renown if we switch on raid week?

[marble hemlock]

Nope

[frosty bridge]

Already in place?

So basically, permanently behind if i switch raid week

yikes

[worthy moth]

when wow will back

[bleak sky]

69 hours 420 minutes

haha gottem xd

[marble hemlock]

Going into the tier as both Venthyr or Necro is fine. If you can still choose right now, Venthyr seems to be a bit better due to an outlier legendary, that may or may not get nerfed. Even if it does, Venthyr is a very solid choice for Assa though.

[severe narwhal]

Thank you

[modern heart]

.. wait when do we unlock obedience.. do I need to make the decision before the mythic raid opens?

[severe narwhal]

^

[worthy moth]

69minutes 69 seconds

[frosty bridge]

mythic week

[bleak sky]

48 renown, yes

[bleak sky]

48 renown is week 3 iirc

[steel bane]

can you go 40 -> 48 in one day?

[frosty bridge]

Yep

Mythic week

[dreamy axle]

no

[umbral rapids]

that's not how it works no

[marble hemlock]

Also, if you like playing other specs, that might affect your choice a bit. i.e. atm it looks to be kyrian for outlaw+sub enthusiasts, venthyr for sub+assa and necro for assa+outlaw

[modern heart]

but at the end of the heroic week they will push out last possible nerfs... right?

[frosty bridge]

Wait, so no fucking catch up if I go venthyr on raid week? meaning i would be 48 by week 4

JESUS

[worthy moth]

when wow will back

[marble hemlock]

Well, just the regular catch up

[worthy moth]

i dont know!!!

[marble hemlock]

As in, the super low chance to get renown at the end of a dungeon

Or maybe from callings

[proven moth]

Prob after first day if it's stupidly broken

[frosty bridge]

God damn lol

[marble hemlock]

So theoretically you can catch up, but no one knows how quick or slow it will be and how much playtime it'll require.

[frosty bridge]

Yeah, that's bs

[worthy moth]

ur profile pic made me laugh hard now

[frosty bridge]

Lel

[umbral rapids]

they did mention something about catch up in patch notes

[frosty bridge]

Iirc they are buffing catchup

[marble hemlock]

Think that mostly applies to the first 40 tho

[frosty bridge]

But only the one to 40

[umbral rapids]

it's unclear though

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, very detailed 😛

[frosty bridge]

Yeah, with that wording it should mean any renown but eh

who knows

[viscid spear]

I'm at 22, really need to grind that this week

[modern heart]

okay so ill just wait out 1st week , I'm ready to make the swap so it's fine.

[frosty bridge]

Either way, not going for Famed so no biggie

[umbral rapids]

classic ^^

[steel bane]

you have 3 Renown from campaign on Week 3. If can't get 5 points elsewhere I'll be very disappointed

[frosty bridge]

The problem is that I fucking took and finished the necro rejoin quest this week to get kyrian to 40

And now I can't switch to venthyr tomorrow

[teal bloom]

I farmed venthyr from 1 to 40 in 2 days, pls no nerf

[north basin]

it doesnt work in every skill braket we have ingame.

[frosty bridge]

Because you need to complete both of the bars before you can switch again

[marble hemlock]

pulling the boss always works

its preferable to not pulling the boss

and talking about the previous pull 20minutes

[elfin valley]

Can't we just talk it out with the boss for loot

[marble hemlock]

thats been my experience anyway

chainpulling bosses beats indepth analysis unless you really wanna drive home the point that someone fucked up and you want to make sure they and everybody else knows it so it doesnt happen again

[proven moth]

I waited to swap, not hyped by sub because theotar it's the top covenant and it's because the umbrella, imagine having uptime

[modern heart]

bloodmallet is making me question everything

[north basin]

u can ignore dps measures in maybe top 100-200 guilds max. after that u have 1/3 people in raid who are not capable to do even purple logs xD

[umbral rapids]

XD

[proper sage]

well but youre pulling them with gear

[marble hemlock]

then educating those people will be more time efficient in improving your raids performance than switching covenant for a marginal 2% dps increase

[proper sage]

thats significantly over whats needed to kill the boss

[modern heart]

fuck it im going ventry

[marble hemlock]

if they only do 50% of the dmg theyre supposed to be doing, their covenant choice matters even less

[cerulean yew]

Yes but I want to do big deeps, idc about guildies

[marble hemlock]

thats your perogative

[elfin valley]

Big dam doer

[umbral rapids]

it's hot takes o'clock apparently

[marble hemlock]

but id never make it the one i wanna lead the raid with 😄

[north basin]

u cant make their brain work faster in encounter enviroment. physically. so u tell em simply thing - change covenant for 2% gain. or farm another socket etc.

[quartz iris]

So this whole argument over necro vs venth I know you guys are saying 1% difference doesn't rly matter but does this take into account the 2 separate Legos and shards?

[elfin valley]

It's retail is down and people are bored o'clock I think lol

[umbral rapids]

i see

[rotund oak]

Seli ❤️

[arctic hare]

I’m just observing the arguments and taking information from them, while also getting entertainment

[marble hemlock]

but if they only pull 50% of their dps potential, and theyre this braindead, telling them to play a different covenant for a 2% dps gain will already only, at most, be a 1% gain. and if its more difficult or different to play, chances are they fuck up their rotation entirely and do less dmg than before.

how is that preferable to helping them educate themselves to play better, helping them set up weakauras etc. so they can do 75% of their dps potential instead

[lone wren]

^

[marble hemlock]

sit down with them in a non judgmenetal way, go through logs, check their opener, see if theres any major issues there, and help them become better

thats gonna kill bosses so much faster

than just trying to remote control their gearing and talenting process

[umbral rapids]

lowkey when i started the game and i raided for the first time this helped a shitton ^

[lone wren]

this is what i was saying earlier, 2% gain or loss doesn't matter to 99% of guilds, because there is much bigger gains in those guilds by just playing better overall.

[umbral rapids]

my RL just called me 1 on 1 and we chatted for an hour and it changed everything

[quartz iris]

Have them use a rotation helper addon for a bit

[arctic hare]

Hekili

Max dos

[marble hemlock]

yep. its not ideal ofc, but itll help them shortterm to be able to focus on other things

[arctic hare]

Maxdps*

[umbral rapids]

i hate those addons tbh but if it works

[marble hemlock]

and once those things become second nature, they can stop relying on crutches

[north basin]

u cant educate some kind of people. biologically )

[marble hemlock]

its like asking a dude who just broke his legs to walk again, using the railing, instead of guiding them through physical therapy, and giving them crutches and time to improve

[arctic hare]

Playing feral before sin made it second nature pretty much as soon as I started playing

[umbral rapids]

usually people don't know where to find the resource to learn. if you guide them towards it they can look it up themselves and get good

[harsh anchor]

Everybody has a different way of learning

It’s not impossible

[marble hemlock]

then you replace those people

[quartz iris]

I used them at the start of the xpack to get the feel for game play on different toons as I was returning from a long break. It definitely helped. I gained 3k dps just from that lol

[marble hemlock]

unless your guild doesnt care

at which point you shouldnt either

[elfin valley]

Something about fish

[marble hemlock]

its perfectly acceptable for a guilds guideline to be "we dont care what spec/covenant you play, just have fun and show up to raids" and if that ambition is unacceptable for you, youre in the wrong guild.

and if shit people get carried in an ambitious guild, then those people need to be removed.

[north basin]

i maybe spent hundred ofhours educating people how to press opener. some are just unable to get simple things

[umbral rapids]

something like that. I mean it's legit what made me get a looooot better in like a week. I jsut had no idea where to find resources for my class and shit

[viscid spear]

I want to be the one doing the carrying for my guild.

[marble hemlock]

id say 60-80% of guilds below rank 250 fail at their progression goals not because of bad raiders, but becaues of bad raidleading and management that has the wrong priorities and the wrong approach to raiding

[fair orchid]

covenant assa pvp y pve?

[bleak sky]

Seli is dropping big fat truth bombs

and I'm all for it

[quartz iris]

Assassin and outlaw players = necro
Assassin and sub players = venth

If only playing one content vs the other and spec go with the recommended best for that spec and content

[fair orchid]

thxx

[cerulean yew]

Venth is better for pve, but if you enjoy pvp then necro sin looks to be one of the strongest specs in the game.

[final star]

My raid leader good, but he historically been top tier raid leader

[marble hemlock]

your english good too. many good.

[north basin]

bad raidleading is like whole other universe of raid issues xD

[final star]

Wrecker the GOAT

[quartz iris]

Thats if your playing assbag for raid and outlaw for dungeons by the way.

[arctic hare]

True

[lone wren]

i have been raiding since EQ2 days, and basically i reached a point where if i see a raid leader say the phrase "stop caring about your personal dps, you are being selfish" i leave the guild immediately because it's the biggest sign of casual noob leadership.

[north basin]

haha

[lone wren]

at that point i rather pug

[marble hemlock]

but yeah, weve seen from the undercover RL stuff that max has been doing, how crucial it is to a teams success. and obviously you cannot expect every guild to have a top-tier raidleader. but its important to recognize that the lower you are in the progression race, the less important numbers become and the more important positive attitudes, socializing and helping each other are the groups success as a whole

[umbral rapids]

duuuude savage

[final star]

The mental aspect is a big part of raiding tbh

[umbral rapids]

preach man. very true

[final star]

When you've got one andy bringing down the raid with shitty comments

[north basin]

actually when i stopped raidleading and was searching for guilds. i always looked at raidleader and not guild. like 95% of success is there in my opinion )

[marble hemlock]

just changing your approach after a wipe from "what did others do wrong" to "what could i have done to avoid this situation or maybe help prevent is" will drastically increase your raids success if its something everybody in the guild does, or even just the majority

[umbral rapids]

attitude is what holds a lot of guilds back

[bleak sky]

Yesterday on our last day of trying to kill Sire I had to sit through a 40 min monologue of "we've gotta improve, guys. We're not gonna get CE next tier if we keep going like that" and BOI

was not fun at all

[marble hemlock]

maybe youre not the best suited class to do a certain job, but if its something you can do, you should be aware of having to do it and offering to do it. because at least then you know its being done consistently well

[final star]

Yikes

[umbral rapids]

what kind of questions would you ask them or what would you be looking for

[final star]

I was running seed by the entrance of artificer in my original guild this tier

[true beacon]

Today is the day. I'm finally here. Are we dropping sin in mythics for sub or are we good still good to rock both for mythics and pvp

[marble hemlock]

helping each other out to cover for each others mistakes is how you improve as a group, as it trains awareness and makes people enjoy raiding with each other more as well

[north basin]

raw measure -pull counter, low = better. so he can manage his team to undercut other guilds pull count xD

[final star]

Koji is here

[quartz iris]

Apparently assassin got good in dungeons.... still outlaw is the superior spec

[final star]

Poor guy woke up to a shit storm of @ messages

[north basin]

right now i just ask. how many dena myth pull tillFK. under 200 = good guild

[final star]

[smoky bluff]

good in dungeons, that's good to me

[undone eagle]

Well i hope assa will be fine in 20+ keys 😄

[smoky bluff]

ayy

[bleak sky]

500+ gang (no kill)

[quartz iris]

Last I checked assassin was ranked higher in dungeons than raid lol

[undone eagle]

But sub rogues are getting good again??

[viscid spear]

https://tenor.com/view/joel-haver-gif-22036387

[umbral rapids]

[marble hemlock]

already is

[fleet anchor]

I feel like you probably have not really been following the 9.0.5 or 9.1 tuning for other specs if you think that Blizzard’s tuning goal hasn’t been to try to minimize Covenant disparity. It clearly has been across the board.

[quartz iris]

Doubt it will last

[viscid spear]

Servers up yet?

[arctic hare]

No

[undone eagle]

@marble hemlock sadly they declined my 20+ queues as sin 😦 cuz no outlaw

In pugs

So i just gave up lul

[bleak sky]

outlaws are in shambles, 100% copium mode

[undone eagle]

Ended all 19’s

[arctic hare]

Won’t be till like 3:00 pst

[elfin valley]

That's not on you nor the spec @undone eagle

[arctic hare]

Yeah

[undone eagle]

Anyways I guess in going sub for pvp again and assa for pve xD

@elfin valley i bet the slave meta

[marble hemlock]

its definitely viable at higher keys, its just that people tend to prefer certain specs for ease of use or because they just dont know that just because one spec is good for m+, doesnt mean the others arent

its a community perception thing

[cerulean yew]

m8 sub is dead for pvp

[undone eagle]

Yeah sadly they are meta slaces

Slaves

[arctic hare]

Yeah

[smoky bluff]

never got enough raider.io points to get insta invites

[bleak sky]

not used in MDI? not viable.

[undone eagle]

Sub is dead even for RBG???

[bleak sky]

not used in RWF? not viable/

[elfin valley]

@undone eagle those the same ppl to decline someone who is 190 Ilvl from a +4

[cerulean yew]

RBG is prob fine if they are willing to take you.

[arctic hare]

I absolutely despise this way of thinking tbh

[indigo ginkgo]

so ! one question, doomblde willl be on cloack !? what are the other legendaries in SIN that we have to recraft so they dont coincide with domination sockets ?

[quartz iris]

Does the 1% difference in damage between venth and necro account for lego and shards or no?

[undone eagle]

I can play both Sub assa in rbg its fine for me 😄

[arctic hare]

I think doom blade will be the only one

[bleak sky]

same, but it's how the game works unfortunately

[undone eagle]

Yikes

[arctic hare]

True

[spice spire]

The big two used are Doomblade and Zoldyck’s, Zoldyck’s is safe on pants so only db for recrafting

[arctic hare]

And this is the exact reason why the mythic score system kinda sucks

[marble hemlock]

theres also another thing at play though, that you have to keep in mind. declining you doesnt actually mean the leader didnt think you or your spec were capable of doing it. they just preferred someone else. youll notice that when leading a group yourself and signing it up in LFG and you get bombarded with 20+ apps within a minute. its easy to just pick whatever mage or boomy applies instead of taking that ret paladin

[undone eagle]

Sorry guys but sylvannas dagger drop for normal & heroic aswell? Cant find

[south belfry]

Yes

[undone eagle]

Looks sick af

[silent fossil]

i’ve been 10/10m for 4.5 months, 229 ilvl, and 1450 io score with 16s across the board because idgaf about m+ and have been removed from groups after meeting at the instance because i’m assass lmao

[undone eagle]

Dope

[indigo ginkgo]

so the obidence one will be in what piece ? cloack too ?

[bleak sky]

Well, yeah, but that's due to the ingrained thing of MDI ONLY SPECS, I think

[spice spire]

Yes

[undone eagle]

arrogant people..

[quartz iris]

Apparently if you are venth assbag raider you should be crafting the new covenant lego

[visual prairie]

only mythic. only if nobody dies during the kill

[spice spire]

He asked about recrafting not crafting anew 😛

[quartz iris]

Yea I saw that as I hit send lol

[smoky bluff]

was venth even on outlulz

lulz

[marble hemlock]

maybe. but as a leader you just want to have as much room for error if your goal is to succeed. its hard to argue against the fact that bringing a firemage over a feraldruid is gonna increase the chances of success

[umbral rapids]

that is really not true. you get 100+ applicants in a few minutes. and whether you like it or not there's 0 reason to pick a ret paladin over a mage

[undone eagle]

Guys if i wanna mainly focus on pve should i stay as assa necro??

[smoky bluff]

this is true

[marble hemlock]

it has little to do with MDI. weve seen DK spammed in MDI in bfa, yet it was still heavily declined in regular keys

[undone eagle]

Says good for raid & great for m+

[smoky bluff]

firemage trash hard carry, unstoppable

[umbral rapids]

Could you time it with a ret ? sure. Do you have higher chance with a fire mage ? probably. Take the mage.

[spice spire]

It’s fine, pins will give you best idea though

[undone eagle]

Ty

[urban thistle]

But isn't your statement referring to community members, not Blizzard employees? You're referring to how individuals are clamoring to get outliers hammered into line, but that's not at all what happens

[dusk needle]

if i change covenants do i lose renown with the covenant i leave? i wanna start leveling up my venth but i wanna keep my high renown in night fae to get flying easier next week

[marble hemlock]

For rogue it kinda has Zeph

[viscid spear]

No, if you go back it'll keep the Renown

[marble hemlock]

Not for others, but for us it did. Oftentimes to our disadvantage

[dusk needle]

oh awesome. thanks

[urban thistle]

This is my ultimate point, we're the ONLY one

Other people aren't

[marble hemlock]

Where stuff like First dance got gutted for Sub, but Cold Steel Hot Blood stayed the way it is for multiple patches

Which was just...

[umbral rapids]

yeah besides us and a few other specs there's very little room for changing covenants

maybe i'm wrong

[marble hemlock]

But would you say that the approach being taken to rogue balancing is a healthier one that all other classes should aspire to?

[umbral rapids]

but i'd like to be proven wrong tbh

[viscid spear]

All of your Anima buildings stay as they were in your previous Covenant.
If you switch to a Covenant you haven't been before then you lose all your banked Anima, and you have to build up the Anima buildinds and Followers from scratch

[umbral rapids]

hard to argue with that :)

[shadow tusk]

they're only balanced cus they're so watered down to where they barely matter

[fleet anchor]

Dude. It’s PTR. Outliers get posted all the time. You think this stuff is like super sekrit and Blizzard is living under a rock or something?

[dusk needle]

yea dont rly care about the anima at this point so its a chill decision

[fleet anchor]

The sims are literally pinned in this channel.

[north basin]

i dont see any reason we get rid of mass declines in 9.1 (

in m+

[fleet anchor]

Blizzard browses Ravenholdt

[marble hemlock]

I'll try my best to make assa great again in m+, if I play it a lot

:p

[viscid spear]

If you haven't changed yet and want to take some anima with you, buy some stuff from the Renown vendor in your old Cov before you switch and resell it to the new one afteer you switch for a refund.

[umbral rapids]

you'r saying we got deathspike nerfed ?

[fleet anchor]

Yes

😛

[elfin valley]

F

[teal bloom]

Hi blizzard employees 👍

[marble hemlock]

Remember though, we only get things nerfed. We dont get things buffed or bugs fixed 🙂

SBS CP gen hiiiiii

[umbral rapids]

I'm still so salty about deathspike

[urban thistle]

No, I don't, I think extreme underperformers should be brought up to relevancy, and top end outliers should only be adjusted if they exceed the intended design goal for the tier, such as spriest right now; if Blizzard feels that it exceeds the intended amount of dps for a spec for the desired difficulty and kill timers for the bosses, then it should be brought down. Otherwise just bring the underperformers up

[umbral rapids]

the 1 vs 2cp on application?

that thing triggers the shit out of me

it throws me off every single time lol

[fleet anchor]

I dunno why people think they are gonna pull a fast one on Blizz. Unless you literally sandbag and hide information completely like a couple specs you can assume Blizzard will hear about it.

[viscid spear]

Endless suffering ensured here.

[marble hemlock]

But youre mostly looking at class balancing across classes in that situation. What about individual balancing within a spec/class, that only pertains to how rental powers are balanced for a specific spec or class?

[rapid yew]

What are the odds that Obedience goes live like it's currently simming?

[fleet anchor]

Rogue TC community has always been transparent and doesn’t hide info. If people dislike that then too bad.

[urban thistle]

I'm not talking about ptr, though the specific example at hand is on the ptr

[dapper solar]

very high

[urban thistle]

My point is about game design

[dapper solar]

its not TOO good

[viscid spear]

It'll go live as is I think, it's just a question of how long (if) until it gets noticed

[fleet anchor]

From a game design perspective something like Obedience is bad design so there’s not much great argument there either.

[umbral rapids]

that's better of course. Maybe if we got response that matches it it would feel better ^^ like BTE is still bugged, sbs is still weird, CTO is still a mess etc

[urban thistle]

That's fine, but you should be crusading equally hard to fix how weak rogue is as a class overall, then, too

If you really believe what you say

[rapid yew]

I'm contemplating switching to Venthyr, I'd be extra salty with a side of salt if it gets hotfixed :\

[north basin]

spriest will again rock the dps charts? i didnt pay attention to their sims lately

[viscid spear]

Well if they won't give us utility then we need to be big pumpers in dps.
At least that's the reasonable thought.

[fleet anchor]

Ah yes. Because my feedback has always been that we should be as weak as possible. 👀

[umbral rapids]

it's not unreasonable to think that bad design and outliers are unhealthy

[marble hemlock]

Well yeah, as you said. Ideally things are balanced to be within a few percentage points of each other. But its often an issue of resource allocation, whether its time or manpower, to fix things. Its much easier to balance within specs to just make everything be as even as possible, and then slap an aura buff on things after the fact, than balance the individual rental powers to the point where they also balance classes against each other

[umbral rapids]

that's true for every spec/class

[viscid spear]

"Boomkin used Convoke and then went to make a sandwich"

[marble hemlock]

And sadly Blizzard tends to simply not do both at the same time

[umbral rapids]

That's one example. I don't have an opinion on obedience but there's some outlier things that are just insane. Earthquake leggo is bonkers for example lol

[marble hemlock]

So we usually get outliers nerfed/buffed, and then a spec is an outlier in the grander scheme because no one bothered to look how that would affect overall balance

Theyre two different balancing approaches that need to be done in tandem, but they rarely are :<

[urban thistle]

When our best option makes us "fine" and you think it's bad design and should be removed, it's certainly a weird point to be campaigning for. I understand your argument that within the context of the spec it's an outlier, but within the context of the game it most certainly is not

[marble hemlock]

Personally I'd prefer the core to be buffed and not bring specs or classes into viablity through rental powers, because by their nature they will only last for a patch.

[viscid spear]

I have to compete with 2 Fury Warriors and 2 Balance Druids, both sets know what they're doing so I have to be on point.
I still win out on fights like Sludge but when we do Sun King I want to die.

[marble hemlock]

And then you get back to doing the same process again each patch cycle, which just eats into development time too much.

[fleet anchor]

Assassination is definitely not relying on Obedience to be “fine”

[umbral rapids]

I don't disagree with that

[fleet anchor]

Assassination has been fine since 9.0.5

[marble hemlock]

Since before, honestly.

[dapper solar]

Everyone would prefer our core to be buffed but might as well take what we can get

[marble hemlock]

The second aura buff was enough already, it didnt need the third.

[viscid spear]

I know, it's just me complaining in secret, lol

[umbral rapids]

and rinse and repeat every patch/expansion ? meh

[dapper solar]

thats the way it go sadly

[urban thistle]

Ah yes, the patch with no raid content. Glad the spec had competitive damage when there was no prog

[dapper solar]

true sin wasnt played till everyone got CE

[fleet anchor]

Obedience has been like this for literally 3 days. Acting like it’s now some required piece of the toolkit is just hyperbole at best.

[viscid spear]

One of the Furys was doing so much PvP during CN that he was decked out in the highest gear you can get from it
Meanwhile I'm trying to bum a token from Sire

[umbral rapids]

u'll rock

[viscid spear]

Thanks, I just need to get the Renown up so I can have Dauntless

[umbral rapids]

i just need to not suck and maybe i'll raid this tier

[viscid spear]

Just do the good kind of sucking if you're Venthyr

[umbral rapids]

lmao nah i'm necro. I play mostly m+ so I'm outlaw but planning on dabbling with sin if the situation requires it 😄

[gusty pewter]

should i change necro to venthyr or im good in necro?

[viscid spear]

Lore question: will Garrosh be partially redeemed? Seems like he's in the same position his father was in Hellfire Citadel.

[umbral rapids]

SPOILER

[fleet anchor]

???

[viscid spear]

I like Garrosh

[limber lion]

Definitely does main Rogue

[fleet anchor]

Man people going a bit nuts up in here today. 🤣

[frosty bridge]

Kinda doubt they nerf Obedience for a while

[final star]

He found it 🤣

[umbral rapids]

and downtime just started

[nocturne geode]

is there a pin for any research done on our raid set of gems we want?

[umbral rapids]

unholy

gg

[viscid spear]

We just want to play but the servers are being difficult.
Maybe they need chocolate

[nocturne geode]

kk i just anted to make sure i didnt over look it ty @umbral rapids

[quick vale]

Does the vers part of Obedience last the same duration as the hate bonus from Flag ?

[umbral rapids]

[viscid spear]

Yeah

[final star]

I'm fairly certain I was thinking of greyhound 😂😂😂

[strange python]

Pst come to outlaw

[quick vale]

Tyty

[final star]

But tisumi went wild

[fleet anchor]

It’s also hilarious that people feel I have some grand plan to nerf Rogues when all I did was link Whispyr’s pinned posts. 🤣

Super sekrit

Rogues very sneaky

[final star]

It was implied that you suggested it to be nerfed to blizzard because its an outlier

If that's not what you suggested it wasn't clear.

[fleet anchor]

1.3 million posts about Obedience in 48 hours, surely nobody will notice.

[viscid spear]

Rogues trust no one
Especially themselves.

[urban thistle]

I'm like, only 10% talking about obedience

[fleet anchor]

I did suggest that Obedience is an outlier. But that is obvious to anyone capable of reading a bar chart.

[teal bloom]

Don't worry guys, I'll cast shroud of concealment on the obedience sims

[nocturne geode]

😄

[silent fossil]

why do people even care this much? wait until after heroic week, respec to / craft whatever legendary sims highest

profit

[hasty crater]

cuz after heroic week, its mythic week. u dont want to farm renown that week

[shadow tusk]

I care cus Venthyr is boring and Necro is

[final star]

That's all well and good when covenant renown is stinky

[silent fossil]

youve had like 9 months to hit 40 in all 4

???

[final star]

No

Past 40

I'm 40 in all 4

I swap week 3 I will be behind

[indigo ginkgo]

prettty shore, we sims high, but other classes ? camom they sim everytime higher

[silent fossil]

o noes

[viscid spear]

We should all Tricks to the SPriest sims

[marble hemlock]

Good or bad Game Design, or unhealthy and healthy balancing and design, are completely removed from specs and classes. Some things work, some things don't. The way rogue has been balanced not just in Shadowlands so far, but in most of the previous expansions in general, has been very healthy as it promoted spec flexibility and diversity, something most other pure-dps classes never had or have been clamoring for for ages. Consistency to these approaches are important, and our class balancing has historically been done different than other classes - and we've managed to get the better end of the stick 90% of the time. Just because we may be getting the other 10% for once, doesn't mean the approach is bad or unhealthy, instead its even more important that other classes are handled in a similar fashion.

Deathspike or Obedience receiving nerfs (when it inevitably does) is simply Blizzard being consistent in their rogue balancing approach.

[viscid spear]

Rogues - No Fun Allowed

[final star]

One spec allowed

[weary marten]

Simple fact : people hates rogue.

[dapper solar]

[dim ledge]

Does that catchup still work next patch?

[fleet anchor]

Getting so attached to things on PTR is not usually a good idea. Tons of shit is buffed and nerfed wildly based on testing and feedback.

[dim ledge]

I’m 39 venth

Will I be able to catchup the one during next 2 weeks of new patch

[old halo]

yes

[fleet anchor]

Nobody has Obedience yet. There are no buffs and nerfs. It literally doesn’t exist yet.

[quaint lark]

yeah just gotta grind

[dim ledge]

tyty

[old halo]

faster now

[urban thistle]

But my point isn't even about those legendaries. Why are you complaining so much about one thing being slightly better, calling it a MASSIVE OUTLIER MUST FIX, when there are so many things that are absolute garbage that could be buffed instead

[fleet anchor]

Until 3 days ago it was fine. Now it’s not. Maybe it will be in 3 more days. Maybe it won’t.

[weary marten]

rogue is the only pure dps only melee spec right ?

[proper sage]

yes

[final star]

because it's a convenant legendary and not a rogue legendary

[fleet anchor]

Maybe it will be nerfed in a month or next patch. Who knows.

[marble hemlock]

Its also about people setting themselves up for disappointment when mage and warlock and rogue all get shiny new toys. Because its very likely ours will get nerfed and theirs wont, as the balancing approach to both classes is quite different and those classes tend to require those shiny new toys to be viable, while we do not.

[final star]

that's the entire argument

that blizzard want covenant choice to be within x

and not legendary choice to be within x

[hasty crater]

I mean raid wise we do need those shiny toys @marble hemlock

[dapper solar]

so true

[marble hemlock]

Because in order to bring everything to the same level, its easier to nerf one thing when everything else is already fairly well balanced, than buff EVERYTHING ELSE.

Chances are theyll fuck smth up

And you repeat the process. It also takes more time and manpower.

[urban thistle]

Cool, I'm on board, let's nuke shadow priest then

Or do you just mean weak rogue shit

[fleet anchor]

If people are being this defensive over pointing to a pinned chart that shows it being wildly OP I think we all know what’s what here. 😛

[marble hemlock]

Don't think anyone would be against that or would disagree with you.

But I was mainly talking about rogue, yeah.

[dapper solar]

its not wildly op tho

[final star]

Wildly OP

[shadow tulip]

The, always fuck something up

[fleet anchor]

And don’t worry, I’ll be using Obedience for sure in 2 weeks if it stays like this.

[final star]

That's a reach

[little sparrow]

[marble hemlock]

I dont really care much for other classes, as it doesnt affect me and other classes being OP just means my raid gets to benefit from having them.

[strange python]

Why point to the chart when its already publicly available

[final star]

Classes are considered OP when compared to other classes, not when internally compared

[fleet anchor]

If it’s not wildly op then surely you won’t mind it being balanced then. Should be a minor change right? 🙂

[final star]

I wouldn't if it was balanced well

and blizzard

will heavy handedly nerf it

and then do zero balance for the rest of the tier

Because for some unknown reason they don't incrementally balance

they do wild swings

[red pagoda]

like good ol' deathspike

[fleet anchor]

Look, everyone said there were only two logical outcomes of Covenant legendaries. This was not unexpected.

[strange python]

Why is it looked at as some egregious offender of balance though when the overall output of the 2 best ST rogue specs still worse than other classes bar charts lol

[marble hemlock]

I dont think any warrior wanted Cold Blood Hot Steel nerfed in BfA, but I'm sure most sensible warriors wouldve understood if it did. By itself that kind of balancing isnt an issue if its contained to one spec or class. It becomes a problem when it affects class balance in general, which it inadvertently does unless a nerf or buff to a class/spec specific thing is counteracted by a core nerf/buff.

[fleet anchor]

Either they are utterly useless and don’t matter

[strange python]

Its not like beta akaari where sub rogue would fill 13 dps slots with a buff bot accompanying

[little sparrow]

Are people really advocating for us to get something good nerfed? What in the peasant brain

[fleet anchor]

Or they are op and force everyone to change covenant

Neither are great options which is why covenant legendaries were a bad idea

This isn’t really shocking

[marble hemlock]

The difference of opinion here is simply a result of Koji or me looking at the class balancing or spec tuning without how it affects overall balance, and you guys do. But we both want the same thing and agree on the same issues presented in the game.

[limber lion]

Can I ask one question

[grim tangle]

yes

[marble hemlock]

No

[dapper solar]

perhaps

[hasty crater]

No

[ancient kraken]

maybe

[marble hemlock]

You already did, by asking if you can ask one question.

Shoudlve asked to ask two questions.

[ancient kraken]

0 questions left

[marble hemlock]

You done goofed.

[final star]

🧞

ask away

[weary marten]

if you say can i ask another question, you're still doomed

[limber lion]

[teal bloom]

[final star]

@limber lion actually you forgot to raise your hand

[fleet anchor]

And again, don’t you guys worry. I’ll be crafting Obedience along with every body fucking else if it goes live like this. 🤣

[agile geode]

@marble hemlock Will you remain necrolord?

[marble hemlock]

Yes

[agile geode]

Good

Me too

[marble hemlock]

[strange python]

Damn so obedience isn’t magically forcing people to swap covenants

[odd hazel]

Venth or get out

[strange python]

And people still get their choice

[spice spire]

Necrolord OTPs, unlucky

[final star]

crazy how it do be like that

[agile geode]

Necrolord for the win

[marble hemlock]

I simply expect it to be nerfed

And I like Necro

[agile geode]

I like necro too

[proper sage]

i mean seli was necro

[odd hazel]

Its not OP like people put it out to be

Or even nerf worthy

[proper sage]

in 9.0

[red pagoda]

if only they'd fix the bonespike cp bug

[final star]

and you wanna play outlaw/assassination not assassination/sub

[agile geode]

For swap for 400 dmg

[proper sage]

i dont think obedience will make him change

even if it went live

[strange python]

^

[marble hemlock]

I like Fleshcraft. I think the difference will be much smaller once you consider the benefit of running Zoldyck on progression for the harder phases of fights, at which point Obedience isnt as overpowered by comparison as it looks in the sims

[final star]

I go venthyr I am assassination gamer only

[strange python]

[amber sand]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[fleet anchor]

Oh come on now. People were swapping over 2% before. You think they won’t swap over 7%? lol Night Fae is so far behind it’s actually not even playable for raiding this patch imo.

[silent fossil]

anything .5k above the 2nd option is op in a vacuum relative to the other options

[marble hemlock]

And it seems that the last 2 fights are partially or heavily cleave-centered.

[final star]

I go kyrian, no assassination gaming

I got necrolord no sub

[vestal zodiac]

Though u probs forget vers is free Dr ontop of damage

[agile geode]

Kyrian Is not for rogue

[strange python]

Well you obviously see there are still people staying Necrolord

There will be people that go kyrian

[final star]

I want sub/assassination gaming

[marble hemlock]

@limber lion what was your question my friend

[odd hazel]

I’m staying on the sin/sub train

[marble hemlock]

imagine wanting sub/assa viability when they both fill the same niche anyway

[final star]

?

[marble hemlock]

And youll still only play one of them

[final star]

I want to play sub in m+

[final star]

and assassination and sub in raid

[little sparrow]

Necro is dope but I’m secretly hoping sub becomes the go-to m+ spec, outlaw is so stale rn

[marble hemlock]

Well, you belong in the zoo then

[limber lion]

Why don't we riot about the really bad legendaries instead of going crazy about the good ones? We don't even include stuff like Toxic Onslaught, Bloodfang, Tiny Toxic Blades, Duskwalkers or Shadowdust in the sims because they perform so badly. They get cropped out because they're so far down. I'm all for nerfing OP outlier legendaries, but I'm even more in the league of buffing the awful ones that never see play as well.

[weary marten]

outlaw is so much buttons to press for far from "HUUUUGE" imo

[marble hemlock]

I answered that already

[indigo mulch]

did simc finish the apl for necro? 😮

[strange python]

This is the thing that frustrates me the most really

[agile geode]

I like doomblade as legendary

[strange python]

Sub rogues current legendaries are all D O G S H I T

COMPLETE DOG SHIT

[frank jetty]

I go for Assa/Outlaw - Assa mainly in Raid and Outlaw for M+ 😄 But can decide if I want to try venthyr for the beginning (I'm Necro) but we will see 😄

[final star]

Because buffing 5 legendaries is harder than nerfing one

[marble hemlock]

Because it is an issue of time and resource allocation, and a class that has 3 pretty viable and well balanced specs is not high on the list of priorities that need further investigation and balancing done to it.

[limber lion]

Sorry Seli, it's been going nuts for like 8 hours now, I fell off after some time :p

[strange python]

why is there no riot for rotten to be buffed to 7% as doomblade is

[urban thistle]

Except very few people are upset about switching to venthyr giving them a 4% gain on single target, especially when it has clear weaknesses.

[gusty pewter]

guys

craft doomblade on cloack?

[spice spire]

Yes

[weary marten]

haste crit ?

[spice spire]

Probably

[arctic hare]

Sounds right

[marble hemlock]

also, this @limber lion

a bit more elaborate i suppose

[fleet anchor]

Is this Sub or Assassination channel though? Like at least 80% of chat in here seems to be about Sub. Like you think we haven’t pointed out that Sub legendaries are undertuned? 😛

[strange python]

Why are we asking for the peak overall ST output (in a sim) to be nerfed, shitting on rogue overall.

[arctic hare]

Guide said haste crit, so I would assume so

[marble hemlock]

I dont think anyone is explicitly asking for it?

[strange python]

Why point out that obedience is overtuned though, if the bar charts are publicly available

[final star]

that's the problem with class based legendaries; no one wins

[marble hemlock]

It's just, ya know, we've been playing the game for a while and know it will happen, so we simply don't want people to hype things up too much and then be disappointed after they chose Venthyr for the sole reason of Obedience being brawken?

[strange python]

Couldn’t that perhaps be seen as a request for nerfs lol

[urban thistle]

So why not campaign to make night fae playable, rather than get a balance pass to save you farming 40 renown

[odd hazel]

Obedience broke. Lol

[fleet anchor]

🤔

[marble hemlock]

I have yet to see anyone campaign for an Obedience nerf.

[weary marten]

No anything but nightfae please

[marble hemlock]

We're simply engaging people on occasion to temper their expectations a bit

[strange python]

Do people not realize blizzard doesn’t seem to really give a shit about these individual tuning levers???

[north basin]

what about obedience survivability part? its like 15% uptime of 25%ish versatility aka damage reduction part. good for prog! no?

[strange python]

I know this is a dead horse

[little sparrow]

Night Fae gang died ages ago, the power itself was so unimaginative lol

[marble hemlock]

They have for rogue DK, historically

[worn geyser]

Question, if sat at 4(5 with deeper) combo points and blindside proc hits, is it worth to use ambush to push to 5 stack since it's free or hold after the 4/5 envenom

[marble hemlock]

Not for others, yes. But for rogue they actually do care.

[strange python]

Arcane mages best lege is 22% gain

2 obediences guys

[marble hemlock]

But we're not playing arcane mage DK.

[strange python]

Dos

[dapper solar]

nerf me seli

[strange python]

Yes but

What i am saying is

[marble hemlock]

We play a class that has always gotten these kinda nerfs

[strange python]

Overall output is the relevant number

Not some arbitrary percent of 1 legendary

[viscid spear]

We back yet?

[marble hemlock]

If you wanna live in a fantasy, be my guest, we can make out there together. But based on how Rogue was handled the last 5-10 years, outliers do get slapped. Hard. Often too hard.

[limber lion]

Yeah that honestly makes sense, I just hate the practice of nerfing things and then having to slap a 5% aura buff on top. But yeah, I understand the lack of manpower and whatnot, I just think it's sad that they spend dev time creating things that never see play, ever, just because of poor tuning. But yeah, I completely see the reasoning why that is now. Thank you.

[strange python]

Why ask for a nerf to 1 individual thing fucking the damage of a class that ONLY BRINGS DAMAGE

[placid cobalt]

i mean, it's kinda sad to see literally anything that stands out by a margin be completely hammered down over and over again

[marble hemlock]

Where is anyone ASKING for a nerf?

[strange python]

Bro

[hasty crater]

@marble hemlock thing is, if they nerf obedience, is the damage we bring ( which will be less now ) enough to get us a spot in a raid in general ? Blizzard needs to accept raid wise we only bring dmg right now, to justify that... let us have dmg

[marble hemlock]

And a legendary that gives versatility

Doesnt only bring damage

Just saying

[odd hazel]

You the past 20 minutes basically

[shadow tulip]

So you mean, it doesn't matter coz' we're already used to it... 😥

[strange python]

Mr Koji directly pointed out the “overtuned” nature of obedience to a blizzard contact

Even though, the rogue sims are publicly available

Can this not be seen as a “look its op, pay attention to it”

Aka nerf it

[fleet anchor]

What exactly is your point?

[placid cobalt]

blizzard know, Ion actually pointed out rogue toolkit in an interview

i think with Preach if memory serves

[dapper solar]

[indigo ginkgo]

really loves dusk to pop up out of nowhere with a buff

[placid cobalt]

said we need more utility, then proceeded to do absolutely nothing aboud it 😄

[fleet anchor]

Do you honestly think Blizzard devs don’t know how to read pins or HeroDamage/Bloodmallet.

[strange python]

The point is why did you feel that it was necessary lmao

Like you just said

Let them handle it

[fleet anchor]

Literally every outlier for Rogue has been smacked down over the last 3 years in a Hotfix.

[marble hemlock]

So its fine if the person whose been doing a lot of work to elevate the class and make it more balanced and get bugs fixed does those things, but how dare he point out positive outliers or bugs that benefit us as it might get something nerfed? Thats a really fucking weird way to look at things, idk

[strange python]

Having the outside opinion of a rogue tc could encourage them more, some could see it this way^

[north basin]

imagine wow devs among us! participating in obedience disscussion

[weary marten]

Can you consider that this is not for a negative thing but more to bring attention on it and avoid an upcoming nerf if this is not intended ?

[fleet anchor]

Ah so what you would prefer is for all Rogues to reroll Venthyr and then get shit on mid tier instead of give feedback when something is implemented on PTR? This doesn’t sound like a very logical plan to me. But each to their own. 😛

[marble hemlock]

Giving detailed information on a positive outlier might increase the likelihood of it being accepted as "its not too bad when put in this light" or get it nerfed properly, not hammered.

[final star]

blizzard never hard nerf mid tier

ever

[placid cobalt]

tbh wow devs don't give much fuck about SL anymore, they sold the copies they had to sell and more. Imagine they still go in front of camera saying "yes, we're really happy with how covenant panned out" with a straight face

[fleet anchor]

Haha what

[marble hemlock]

Say hello to First Dance

[strange python]

Once again, arcane harmony

22% legendary

Icy propulsion

What is it like 16% conduit?

[marble hemlock]

THOSE ARENT ROGUE LEGENDARIES

Can you not understand

[fleet anchor]

Sub has been nerfed mid tier at least 3 tiers in the last 2 xpacs

[marble hemlock]

The fucking difference in balancing approaches between rogue and other classes

Despite it having been pointed out 50 times

[strange python]

How

[hasty crater]

@final star no but they do at release of mythic. Which by then it will be a pain in the ass to swap covenants

[strange python]

Rogue literally only brings damage