assassination

[zealous marsh]

He makes those guides to make you not beat his parses

Actual 5head

[tacit wedge]

Warlock

Flashpoint and other haste buffs

[frank jetty]

@zealous marsh

[balmy condor]

Part of me wants to believe that he knows he’s wrong but he’s simply too lazy to fix it

[limber lion]

Ah yeah, I also had 512% haste during the Vision with Gift of the titans and lust

Very cool.

[balmy condor]

Cause he doesn’t seem like a bad dude, or even an idiot

Hell, the base info of his guides is fine too

[zealous marsh]

But he parses not bad too

[balmy condor]

He just sprinkles in weird “tips” and “personal experience” that are so outlandishly wrong that it doesn’t even make sense

Any 34% crit enjoyers?

[zealous marsh]

So I think like he does it on purpose to not make noobs better

[limber lion]

I doubt it

[zealous marsh]

I enjoy scaling

[potent dagger]

XD

[limber lion]

Man's just a bit of a lazy dweeb

[balmy condor]

Your balls are the desert to the guy from earlier

[zealous marsh]

[zealous marsh]

Easy content for clueless grey/green andies

[faint harness]

infexous is the reason why some content creators should have to get a license to be able to stream/post anything on the internet

[versed mica]

I too, consider myself to be a scaling connoisseur mmm yes quite

[exotic notch]

Oh dear, so he’s 9.1 spreadsheet should be taken with a huge pinch of salt then? 😂

[tacit wedge]

34% crit to make exsanguinate competitive am i right?

[zealous marsh]

Dunno I don’t watch them

[balmy condor]

I delete it when people post it in here if that tells you something

[south belfry]

But Infexious is 10/10M god

Whispyr is only 4/10M Beta

[faint harness]

tbf he's a better content creator than he is rogue

so i can see why ppl listen to him

[civic trellis]

XD

[zealous marsh]

I heard from some friend of mine thay rogue gonna suck in 9.1. When i asked him why do u think so; he posted me dratnos video

[faint harness]

ye dratnos is known for making good tierlists

[zealous marsh]

Of ass and sub bein b tier

[faint harness]

sad for us

[balmy condor]

Can’t argue

[zealous marsh]

But B tier?

[faint harness]

big sarcasm

[zealous marsh]

Oh

[south belfry]

Hell yeah know your place

[zealous marsh]

Now I’m boomer

[versed mica]

Whispyr can't get 10/10M because he busy calculating those scaling ratios

[sturdy merlin]

Who is Infexious ?

[brazen rampart]

fell for the tier list meme

[exotic notch]

Haha oh god, I haven’t played rogue since cata and decided to jump back in now, thought that spreadsheet was going to be my golden ticket 😅

[balmy condor]

Oh you pure of mind….

[faint harness]

i think you shouldnt look at any 1 video and say, "this is true". That goes for anything btw, so if Dratnos puts rogue in B tier thats just his opinion and guesstimate.

[zealous marsh]

Well obviously i’m not looking at it

[balmy condor]

Shouldn’t even look at my vods/stream/sims and take that at face value tbh

I say dumb shit all the time

I wouldn’t listen to me

[faint harness]

You should definitely look at Whispyrs streams and say "this is tru"

[zealous marsh]

But when my casual friend is linking me that saying im gonna suck then im

[pale heart]

yeah, like scaling does not exist

[brazen rampart]

where is whispyr's tier list?

[south belfry]

People demand Whispyrs tier list

[balmy condor]

I’ll make a rogue only tier list on stream at some point

[brazen rampart]

sub, sin S tier, outlaw F tier

everything in between empty

[faint harness]

tierlists are fun to make, which is why its sad when ppl take them so seriously

[zealous marsh]

And give him 1000€ donation for waifu body pillow?

[faint harness]

cus then you cant make one and joke around with it

[faint harness]

why stop at 1000

[zealous marsh]

Then he will buy to much body pillows

[balmy condor]

People have offered to pay me to sim

Which is a little weird

[limber lion]

Infexious rocking a good 62 median average

What a god

[brazen rampart]

jesus christ that's worse than me

[balmy condor]

No no

[brazen rampart]

and i'm shite

[balmy condor]

He’s a god

[south belfry]

Wait really

Oh my god

[sullen fossil]

Whispyr's body pillow? where can i buy it?

[balmy condor]

I bet your average isn’t twice that

[limber lion]

True :(

Infx is a different kind of beast

[balmy condor]

Imagine being a… what is it? 99.4 average? Beta male

[zealous marsh]

That’s worse than mine

[faint harness]

he's a mechanical genius tho, so he sacrifices all his dps to save his raid team

[south belfry]

Smh Ceverion so bad not even getting 120% parses

[balmy condor]

Blue is the best color

[faint harness]

gotta appreciate that

[exotic notch]

I’ll buy whispyr one if you answer every ‘what cov is best for sin’question

[brazen rampart]

he's just built different

[balmy condor]

Would give me something to cry into at night

[chrome arch]

What cov is best for sin

[south belfry]

yes

[chrome arch]

[brazen rampart]

what cov is best for sin?

[exotic notch]

And so it starts

[sturdy merlin]

Night fae

[sullen fossil]

Cek de pins boiz

Kappa

[balmy condor]

Venth. As in the Sound it makes venth eez nuts hit your face

[south belfry]

Go see Infexious' stream

He will tell you the best covenant

[zealous marsh]

*deez nuts

[ruby birch]

[brazen rampart]

outlaw so low it doesn't fit in the tier list?

[ruby birch]

this is a rogue tier list

[fiery cradle]

gloomblade makin moves

[plucky sluice]

yeah. just spamming sbs till first massacre 😄 it was just funny 🙂

[sullen fossil]

Outlaw isn't a rogue

[willow eagle]

Wtf

You're going to jail sir

[zealous marsh]

U r pirate

Don’t have that power

[brazen rampart]

outlaws go to jail by definition

[willow eagle]

You're stuck in legion times if you think our fantasy is pirate

[zealous marsh]

So prisoner

[balmy condor]

Aight me go sleep, cause me want to watch germany vs England tomorrow go Deutschland, and the game starts in 5:30 hours

[willow eagle]

Gn

[balmy condor]

Don’t burn the place down

[brazen rampart]

gn

[sturdy merlin]

gn

[ruby birch]

Good night

[sullen fossil]

gn

[exotic notch]

Gn

[zealous marsh]

We will

[brazen rampart]

we'll make sure to ping you with MANY scaling questions

[balmy condor]

[willow eagle]

We always dodge it

[zealous marsh]

Scale well

[versed mica]

just because of this, I'm gonna try and get 2100 arena outlaw only

[ruby birch]

still wont be a rogue

[civic trellis]

Outlaw is busted in arena

Just ppl dont know how to play it

[willow eagle]

Outlaw in 9.1 with new PvP talents tho

[civic trellis]

Pog

[willow eagle]

Never die

Drain the enemy

[versed mica]

thicc

[ruby birch]

as i said

[civic trellis]

But the shiv healing reduction is...

[ruby birch]

this will never be a rogue

[willow eagle]

That's the roguest of rogues

[versed mica]

well the spec aint called southsea pirate now is it

[ruby birch]

honestly, probably more of a rogue than outlaw

[versed mica]

dam

[ruby birch]

idk what kinda rogue runs around with swords 2x the length of their body

[willow eagle]

That's the pvpers

[versed mica]

I don't

[willow eagle]

But PvP players don't know how to mog anyways

[versed mica]

I use a shortsword and a dagger in the oh

[red bloom]

tiny fist wep mogs BIS

[versed mica]

again, xmog increases my dps by thousands

[brazen rampart]

broken bottles mog is bis

[ruby birch]

you also use a blunderbuss and a flintlock pistol

[red bloom]

BROKEN BOTTLES ARE BIS

[ruby birch]

BROKEN BOTTLES ARE BIS

LETS GO

[brazen rampart]

pin it

[limber lion]

Gn

[willow eagle]

And that fits the rogue fantasy perfectly

[ruby birch]

LOOK AT THIS BEAUTIFUL BROKEN BOTTLE MOG

[willow eagle]

Are you a pvper?

[ruby birch]

both

pvp and pve

[brazen rampart]

this char can solo mythic sylvanas

[red bloom]

fuck, im a lego pleb atm

[willow eagle]

Yeah checks out

[ruby birch]

literally the strongest char in the lore

[brazen rampart]

bet he runs gloomblade

[versed mica]

this orc was kissed and blessed by med'an himself

[ruby birch]

wym

[ruby birch]

i unironically run gloomblade

[brazen rampart]

[ruby birch]

PV DD all day

[willow eagle]

PvP players are known to wear trash transmogs

[ruby birch]

isnt it the opposite

[willow eagle]

If you see a person with a bad transmog

[brazen rampart]

this is a bis mog, idk what you mean

[willow eagle]

It's very likely he's a pvp player

[ruby birch]

no

but i can tell you how to actually find a pvper from their transmog instantly

look for any TCG tabard or glad tabard

you're welcome

[willow eagle]

The illidan blindfold

Also

Fenale character

[red bloom]

you telling me this is bad?!

[ruby birch]

holy fuck

[willow eagle]

Dogshit

[ruby birch]

that's insane tmog

idk what you're on about

[willow eagle]

Actually no

Cowshit

[ruby birch]

HIS HORNS

ARE PIMPED OUT

WYM

LOOK AT HIS HORNS

[brazen rampart]

bull...shit?

[red bloom]

you sir do not know style

[willow eagle]

Blood elf males don't exist

It's just bulkier females

[ruby birch]

look at this insane transmog

[willow eagle]

On a serious not that looks great but isn't there a belt to glue the set together?

[red bloom]

i dunno, youd have to ask pikaboo

[willow eagle]

Ah it's pika

[red bloom]

My mog was the nelf a little bit up

[willow eagle]

Full set besides tabard and head

[ruby birch]

tellin me pvpers have bad mogs when i get priests lookin like this

[red bloom]

ew

too much pants for a priest mog what you doin

[ruby birch]

not mine

excuse you

im a man of culture

[red bloom]

lol

[warm parcel]

Is this #transmog

[bronze steppe]

Does the renown catch up change/improve in anyway once 9.1 hits?

[willow eagle]

It's most likely going to be much faster

Just increased percentages

But it's already really fast to catchup renown

[pearl sparrow]

is there a cap on the amount of renown you can catchup in 9.1? Or can I go 1-40 once the patch hits

[wild birch]

Can you cast 2 Flagellations for each vendetta with obedience?

[sonic schooner]

are u good enough to do it is the real queston

[wild birch]

Is it possible? Everything else is not even up to skill, more luck with crits and energy regen

[teal bloom]

I don't think you can hit 30 stacks often

[wild birch]

Is it 1s per stack?

[teal bloom]

Yep

[sonic schooner]

when i was venthyr the only way i could hit 30 was during BL and still, needed some good luck on crits

[wild birch]

Yeah, if judging by 9.0 then no. But now we'll have more haste

[teal bloom]

Yeah maybe later into patch with more haste and crit

[sonic schooner]

flag + pi + lust on inerva

i remember my energy going brrrrrr

[teal bloom]

Flag + pi + lust + thrillseeker

[sonic schooner]

190% haste

[hollow escarp]

• gemstones

[teal bloom]

double covenant?

[ancient kraken]

New meta

[limber lion]

Flag stacks aren't really dependent on haste levels and more about crit levels

Even if you're at energy saturation, you can't hit 30% if you don't crit enough.

[wild birch]

Well, I should've said "now we have more stats". In the end it's still a combination of both

[hollow talon]

do i need to recraft my doomblade leggo

from gloves to not gloves?

[limber lion]

To cloak, yes.

[fallen arch]

Yes, if you’re planning on using doomblade its gonne be cloak

[limber lion]

If you're Venthyr, you might want to use Obedience though.

[fallen arch]

We all gonna be vampires again for now

[hollow talon]

oo bet ok

im necroboi now then

gotta switch this week i guess

so do i need soul ash farmed up right now?

i havent been doing all my choreghasts lately

[burnt star]

U will be able to get enouhh by week3 mostly

[wild birch]

Is there any big disadvantages, if you decide to switch covenant on a patchday?

[hollow talon]

campaign quests + other stuff that are time consuming

is the main disadvantage i guess

[hollow talon]

ok wow saw the updated sims

venthyr lookin stronk

prob should have switched a few days ago oh well

should be caught up by raid next week

[fallen arch]

Ye lets hope we dont get fucked over next couple of days

‘Kidding, lets nerf obedience’

It’s bad enough to lose sbs

[hollow talon]

would be absolute classic blizzard move

[south belfry]

I can 100% see blizz nerfing obedience but still keep shadow priest like 5% better than any other clas

[hollow talon]

are there new sources of conduits in 9.1 or no

[final star]

Torghast iirc

World content

World content to 226 at least

[hollow talon]

i think i have enough stygia to get it to 226 maybe

[weary marten]

Can we go above 40 renoun starting tomorrow ?

[south belfry]

Ya

[ornate zodiac]

Venthyr looking best for raid?

[south belfry]

Ya

[ornate zodiac]

by a significant margin over necro?

[stiff thicket]

nope

They are very close to each other

so pick one

and you'll be fine anyway

[south belfry]

With obedience its quite a big gap

[sonic schooner]

if u have only 1 add within the fight necro wins

[halcyon blade]

tbh play what you like the style of more, you'll be just fine

[stiff thicket]

that's what the sims in the pin show

but

when conduits are in Venth and Necro will be very close

[sullen fossil]

I mean.. just cap them both

[stiff thicket]

yeah

i'm Necro and i completed the quests to switch Venthyr just in case

i'll see what's best

[rustic whale]

what kind of nerf possible to Obedience? cd reduction nerf or versa?

[ornate zodiac]

I do have both capped, just trying to figure out which will be best for pushing week 1 aotc

[sullen fossil]

Probably venth at that point

[tribal marlin]

yes

[reef axle]

can we turn in quest for cov switch and not switch? as in, quest complete, we talk to em later to switch?

[brisk orchid]

Yes

[tribal marlin]

why would obedience be nerfed

[ornate zodiac]

whats gunna be the fastest way to do the quest for switching back?

[reef axle]

some reason wowhead saying doomblade still better for sin over obedience

[hollow talon]

bbtw just switched to venthyr do i just flag on CD or line it up with my 2mins

[ancient kraken]

Because blizzard

[stiff thicket]

Depends on the fight lenght

[fathom swift]

there's a couple of covenant legendaries that look a lot stronger than other options for that spec, obedience is one of them

[final star]

Cos it hasn't been updated yet to reflect most recent sims

[fathom swift]

if it's intended it prob won't be nerfed

[thorny pond]

On CD seems to be the sim currrently

[sonic schooner]

just get 30 stack everytime so u align it with vendetta without delaying it

pro gamer

[reef axle]

hmmm so i wonder if obediance will beat the extra add necro

[sullen fossil]

Probably not

[final star]

That also disregards that half the specs in the game already have a pre-existing legendary that is their only choice and haven't received nerfs. I doubt obedience will see balancing on that fact alone.

[weary marten]

depends if you plan to funnel your damage on boss or pad on a little add

[tribal marlin]

Rogues doesn't have raid utility. As a raid leader you need to ask yourself "is an additionnal raid utility really needed for this encounter, or should we take more damage ?"

[fathom swift]

it's less about having one option be a lot better than others and more about 4-5 specs getting way bigger damage boosts from new legendaries and the rest getting nothing with a new patch

[tribal marlin]

if rogues are not doing over dps

the question doesn't exists and rogue stay on bench forever.

[final star]

So? They don't need anything new to be competitive, that's the point.

[fathom swift]

huh?

there's tons of nonviable specs that don't get any good new covenant legendaries wdym

[final star]

For example?

[sullen fossil]

We have immunity every 2 mins.. Please rl-chan let me raid

[fathom swift]

any melee that isn't warrior, ret or rogue

[rustic whale]

i m sure when the obedience up pvp babies will storm the forums and cry 24/7 for nerf @tribal marlin

[rugged quarry]

Do you play around Thrill Seeker as Venthyr or do you just treat it as a nice bonus?

[rustic whale]

also wowhead rogue guide is pretty confusing atm

[tribal marlin]

treat as nice bonus

[final star]

That's pretty disingenuous to say that other melee specs are non-viable and will be overlooked just because they didn't receive a new covenant legendary

[quaint carbon]

any odds on Obe being nerf asap?

[fathom swift]

I think you're reading too much into what I said. My point is that very few dps specs did get a relevant covenant legendary, and it certainly wasn't only specs that were underperforming

[reef axle]

Im also assumin sin will be used for raid over sub due to the down time in mythic prog

[weary marten]

What answer are you expecting ? Let me read my crystal ball !
It's blizzard dude, we can expect anything but don't ask if we can foresee what will happen

[echo geyser]

the d-word is kinda taboo

[gusty kestrel]

why exactly are u trying to get us nerfed

[quaint carbon]

[gusty kestrel]

other specs have legendaries that are 20x as good as the 2nd best one

and ure instantly running to blizzard when a legendary is slightly above the rest?

[final star]

Would you say that the specs that did not receive a relevant covenant legendary desperately needed it, because I definitely wouldn't.

[gusty kestrel]

people usually cry when their spec/class is shit

not when its good

[frail fossil]

crazy how we dont even know how good sub is

and ppl asking blizz for nerf

[final star]

A lot of the specs that suffer are due to the current design of the spec, and not that they don't have a legendary to fill a niche

[sonic schooner]

let us be shit please bwizzard sempai

[frail fossil]

of their own class

this is very cringe

[fathom swift]

yeah, like enhancement or survival or feral? and boomkin and warrior both got busted ones that they def didnt need

[gusty kestrel]

but atleast the big koji is there to get us nerfed immediately

all hail koji the delusional TC

[limber lion]

Why not just buff the bad legendaries instead of nerfing the good ones?

[rustic whale]

that's diablo team vision never executed in wow but good idea ofc

[fathom swift]

there's a lot of specs that have better legendaries than obedience, even covenant legendaries, so it is a bit weird to ask for a nerf basically

[final star]

all three specs issue is that their off specs are ranged

[tribal marlin]

Enh, Survival or Feral can all spec into ranged

[fathom swift]

lol ok

you guys are def just missing the point im not gonna bothe

[tacit wedge]

Why always nerf instead of buffing
Doing big numbers is cool and i want everybody to experience that :(

[final star]

because there is no point, that's the problem 🤷

you are looking at it in a vacuum of percentage increase or outlier for specific specs

[gusty kestrel]

ask koji

[final star]

rather than comparatively to every other specs overall values

[gusty kestrel]

I'm sure he can enlighten you

[final star]

and even then it's fight design dependant

[tacit wedge]

Who is Koji

[cobalt pelican]

me smile

[sonic schooner]

:)

[final star]

🙂

[tacit wedge]

I swear if i get something like "koji these nuts" i'll leave the discord

[stiff thicket]

Just chill guys and let's see what will be hapening next week and weeks to come

Just wait for sims

[gusty kestrel]

look on on the right in discord

hes a green name

: )

[echo geyser]

its new cov stuff missing + weps mostly right?

[tacit wedge]

Ah

[frail fossil]

bro what if one of our most influential TC stopped asking for nerf of his own class, before we even seen how strong it is on an actual patch

[echo geyser]

on the sims

[frail fossil]

so fucking

cringe

[cobalt pelican]

just weapons and idk how bron works in sim atm

cause they keep fucking with him

[final star]

from what I recall, Koji doesn't main rogue

[rustic whale]

what about top rogues decision about covenants? i asked a few of them they are staying as necro for the moment. I think it is best to stay on your covenant and see if nerfs/buffs happens until renown 48

[final star]

but also

[cobalt pelican]

ya he does

[gusty kestrel]

that would explain a lot

[final star]

[rugged quarry]

Bloodmallet sims seem to be severely bugged regarding the Echoing Reprimand lego, they say its a dps decrease

[echo geyser]

clearly if u play sin/sub venthyr is looking to be the best for progress if u value ST at least

[tribal marlin]

My point is that Rogues doesn't have ranged spec. Melee spot are pricey. If a melee class doesn't bring any raid utility, it gotta do above average DPS, otherwise there is no reason to bring it into progression.

[rugged quarry]

as in, it literally lowers your dps to use over not using it

[cobalt pelican]

realistically even with numbers being given to blizzard obedience isn't too far out there that it'll guaranteed get nerfed

[tribal marlin]

If Rogue do same dps than DK or DH, why would you ever bring a Rogue in raid ?

[cobalt pelican]

it's more likely to get nerfed if they don't want covenant specific legendaries to be outliers

[final star]

Yes and that's the point

The people asking for a nerf

are asking for it

[cobalt pelican]

people aren't asking for a nerf

[final star]

because it's percentage increase

Koji literally is

[cobalt pelican]

not really

[final star]

over other spec legendaries

[cobalt pelican]

they've had communication channels where they submit but reports and data about rogues for a decent length of time afaik

that includes the good with the bad

[gusty kestrel]

wdym koji is literally talking to his buddy at blizzard

[cobalt pelican]

rogue overall probably gets less 'oopsie woopsie we forgot to tune it' than other classes for that reason maybe yeah

[placid pagoda]

I swapped back to venth and I’m going to lose my mind if they nerf it so necro pulls ahead again

[echo geyser]

marileth got a buff, but doubt its in sims yet

[rugged quarry]

what if you didnt care about the +/- 1% dps

[sonic schooner]

what if somehow sepsis pulls ahead

[echo geyser]

then im fucked cause 0 renown in that cov

[sonic schooner]

[rustic whale]

my concern pvp can be problematic here unless they nerf it like "pvp combat". It is quite obvious that lego provides high amount of burst for short periods of time. And we all should know how the comminuties cry to Rogues

[rugged quarry]

taht emote is a war crime

[sonic schooner]

tbh if fae become better by 7% i just lose hope

[cobalt pelican]

they have pvp tuning specifically for this reason though

[ancient kraken]

Maybe because better player?

[sonic schooner]

"ability used from the sepsis stealth proc dmg is increased by 1000%"

[weary marten]

tbh i prefer to be 7% behind over playing fae

[sonic schooner]

would be enough of a buff i think to make it competitiv

[odd hazel]

Necro is only ahead in cleave/etc

[final star]

the thing is, obedience doesn't even put us far ahead compared to other classes as both assassination and sub, but submitting data and explicitly stating that it's further ahead than other legendaries for that spec and therefore should receive attention on that is dumb.

[tribal marlin]

doesn't work like that in my world

there is no "better player" or not better enough to be relevant over comp choice

[odd hazel]

Player > class tbh

[ancient kraken]

It should, ppl class over player just have no idea what difference a good player makes

[gusty mirage]

Thankfully your world doesn’t matter one bit to the rest of us then, huh

[odd hazel]

^

[cobalt pelican]

i mean

player > class in any guild only holds if you're in a closed loop

where you play with the same 20 mediocre idiots forever

[echo geyser]

[cobalt pelican]

if you think there's not dh/dk players out there as good or better than you that will never join your guild you're either

in a guild much worse than you

or stupid

[ancient kraken]

Only ppl racing for wr1 should pick player and then also class. After that the better player will always bring more value

[marsh wagon]

you can have 20 people of similar skill level where class/cov becomes a big factor tho

[final star]

I'd rather take a druid who does 1k less dps but is fantastic at mechanics than a rogue who does 1k dps more and ignores mechanics

as an example

[marsh wagon]

and its not just world first or hof

[tribal marlin]

I mean if you are killing bosses post nerf, with all renown increase and full mythic gear, then you litterally don't care about your class getting nerfed.
In such case, what's prevent you from killing bosses is not dps.

[marsh wagon]

dealing 1k dps more is quite a bit when one of the mechanics is a dps check

[ancient kraken]

Dps still matters, that’s not the point. But better player can make up that gap unless the class is so far behind

[odd hazel]

People were doing mythic as survival

So

[final star]

you do 0 dps if you're dead to mechanics

that's the point

[odd hazel]

^

[green harbor]

but you can do 1k more dps and do mechanics at the same time, they're not mutually exclusive

[rustic whale]

i m agreeing Mikihisa on for Rogues should bring the highest melee damage. If no utility in raids it should be the damage. I also wonder why we are still suffering offhand damage penalty. Rogues are pure dual wielder classes.

[gusty mirage]

Sure man, because I do the content slower than bleeding edge I “don’t care about my class getting nerfed.” Great take, you must be a mind reader or something

[final star]

of course, but it's still a choice that a raid leader/comp management has to make

[odd hazel]

Where’s whispyr to see this lmao

[tribal marlin]

No I mean, you don't care about your classe being tuned down to the power level of other classes.

[gusty kestrel]

cant believe u never joined moth gang gang

[echo geyser]

my other 2 chars were NF

[gusty kestrel]

hunter and?

idk what else u played

[echo geyser]

boomie

[gusty kestrel]

[thorny pond]

That’s some fotm shit

[final star]

problem is, for sub anyway, you nerf obedience you're brought back down to the bottom, not to the power of other classes

[echo geyser]

yeah sadge hunter died so quick

[tribal marlin]

After bosses take 5% HP nerf, damage nerf, etc... there is no need to stack raid utility, or ask yourself if you gotta bring another Shout or a rogue that will do 3% more damage. It's all about peforming the encounter correctly from the begining to the end and your raid comp doesn't matter. In that case, yes you don't care if your "above average OP class" is brought down to average and should probably bring your best players anyway.

[final star]

and we all know blizzard are giga heavy handed in nerfing shit

[echo geyser]

boomie i rly just never got hooked on i dont like the class

[thorny pond]

Eh, just be an m+ hero

[final star]

if only domination sockets didn't exist

and raid daggers

and trinkets

not that anyone will ever see a dagger this patch, let alone two

[weary marten]

I completed the first quest to go back to venthyr, let's imagine next week i stay necro and go to renoun 43, if i switch venthyr before reset, will i be able to climb venthyr 43 also ?

[thorny pond]

I believe in you

Phial first vault

[echo geyser]

well rn noone wants it anyways cause it has no effect

[final star]

[weary marten]

i have never seen a 226 dagger this patch ...

[final star]

[languid frigate]

Sorry, been away a few days. Has Obedience been buffed? A few days ago everyone was jumping ship to Necro, but now it looks like Venthyr is back on top? Is this correct?

[final star]

it got bug fixed

[thorny pond]

Come here my children and may the obedience lords smile upon you with bis gear and orange parses

[echo geyser]

[final star]

there is no bis list

gottem

[thorny pond]

Daggers and trinkets my son

[final star]

gottem back

[sonic schooner]

!bis

[cerulean yew]

Blizz really fucked over rogues. I've had to play every covenant since SL release. Meanwhile most other classes have stayed the same.

[sonic schooner]

be happy

look at those other classes now being totally lost because they have to change cov

and they are like "wtf there are more options than just fae wtf since when we can go anywhere else.???"

[odd hazel]

My guild is gonna be interesting this patch.

[gleaming fable]

they should just pull out half the ripcord and make swapping covenants easy

[odd hazel]

It is easy now

[final star]

yeah it's not hard

[dim shoal]

My GM was like, man i dont wanna switch from venthyr. What happens with my mission table and all the oribos teleport

And im like, wait. What teleport

[gleaming fable]

renown farming is pretty awful, i guess it isn't hard

[odd hazel]

It’s not that bad just time consuming

[gleaming fable]

covenant campaign was enjoyable, farming 30 renown is lame

[odd hazel]

Lfr, normal, heroic, m+ gg

[languid frigate]

With 9.1, renown catch up is being boosted too.

[final star]

play game

it come

[odd hazel]

^

[gleaming fable]

Yeah i hope its a significant boost guess we'll see

[odd hazel]

Imagine needing help for something that takes 2 days

[languid frigate]

Does it look like everyone is coming back to Venthyr with these bug fixes now?

[dim shoal]

Everyone nightfae cause Furrys

[odd hazel]

Not everyone but obedience is looking good

Necro is still top M+ though

[gleaming fable]

for sub venthyr is pretty mandatory but necro is still solid for ass

[languid frigate]

Yeah, but previously Necro was ahead by about 300 dps. Now only looking 20 for Dungeon Slice?

[odd hazel]

Triple potency obedience is looking good for sin m+ wise and its top with dauntless ST wise

#pins for more

I refuse to play kyrian for sub tbh even if it stays top ST for it

It’s shit for anything else

[cobalt pelican]

an entire season of brons knocking packs in random directions sounds like good shit to me

[cerulean yew]

I can feel venthyr lego nerfs coming. Probably shouldnt craft rank 5 or 6.

[odd hazel]

Nah

It’s not that good people lol

It’s good but not insane

[gleaming fable]

the only way it gets nerfed is if sub/ass damage is just too high

[odd hazel]

I mean

Boomy didn’t get touched until now

So

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[elfin valley]

yeah but boomy ranged

[sonic schooner]

too high compared to what?

[elfin valley]

they love ranged

[gleaming fable]

other classes?

[cerulean yew]

Cant compare rogues with boomies lol

[sonic schooner]

so as long as SP exist

[odd hazel]

It won’t be that high

[sonic schooner]

we re fine

we even might needs to buff obedience at this point

[gleaming fable]

we can only pray

[odd hazel]

Why people are worried is beyond me

It’s not that insane

[elfin valley]

im worried for our hunter friends

lol

[grim jay]

2-3 days

without a boost

nothing much

[cerulean yew]

it doesnt matter what rogue dps is comapred to other classes. The lego will get nerfed if everyone is playing it. Blizz loves "meaningful choice"

[final star]

because you have main rogue tc naysaying

[grim jay]

year of the spear

[final star]

that it's too strong

so of course people are parroting it

[gleaming fable]

Theres a lot of people that want obedience nerfed for some reason, guess we'll see. I'm not worried unless sub/ass somehow ends up being overtuned as shit

[grim jay]

who did tho

[final star]

koji

[sonic schooner]

dw i ll sacrifice myself and stay necro so obedience will never be nerf

[cobalt pelican]

i'm staying necro till mythic week anyway

there's not really much reason not to

it'll be better first 2 weeks and you can see whether obedience gets killed before wf shit starts

[grim jay]

I mean it obviously is strong compared to other legendaries in our class. compared to other legendaries in general its not really and rogue compared to other classes isnt something unbalanced as it is now. the reasonable step would be bringing other legendaries in line with it, not nerfing obedience by much

but who knows

[cobalt pelican]

only downside is some time investment on mythic week1/2

[final star]

blizzard would rather nerf and "outlier" than buff the underperforming because it's less work

[grim jay]

still rather afraid of that if they fucked up something in the catchup again 😄

[languid frigate]

But it looks like Obedience is from Renown 48 anyway right? That's what, week 4? So nothing will change until at least then.

[cobalt pelican]

i swapped covenants plenty during 9.0 and you can always get to max renown in reasonable time

[gleaming fable]

Sub only has 1 leggo that isn't below 4% throughput dogshit? Better nuke it from orbit

[final star]

exactly, that's the problem

all three specs will have viability and choice of covenant

[grim jay]

I didnt swap in 9.0.5 while it was ongoing and there were people saying they always were like a week behind

[final star]

let's just water that down real quick

[cobalt pelican]

you end up stuck a week behind if you do it in the wrong order

but if you know what you're doing and have time to sink it's not unreasonable to be caught up in a couple days

[final star]

if you are EU you need to speak to them to change today and fill the bar today and hand in quest

[ember jay]

week 3

[final star]

then tomorrow you will get the next fill the bar quest

to hand in whenever you wanna swap

[grim jay]

what did you mostly do there tho? m+ grind till 4 renown left -> WB -> weekly + campaign?

[final star]

it won't matter if you wanna hold quest to swap in a few weeks

[cobalt pelican]

the only important part is you do campaign second to last and weeklies last

what you do beforehand is kinda up to you

[gleaming fable]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWFiMK72U0 find a vampire bear buddy

[bright hazel]

If i was necro with 30 renown and i changed to venth now , when i go back to necro i will get that renown back or i will start from 1 ?

[cobalt pelican]

if you hand in weeklies for anything besides the last 2 renown you'll be stuck 2 renown behind other people because world drop renown will stop early

you get your renown back

are the kevin buffs in simc already does anyone know

[grim jay]

sounds reasonable. not sure if I'll swap even if obedience takes a hit, considering it depends on how hard it gets nerfed if it gets nerfed and sub will still be strong in m+ depending on dungeon.

[grim jay]

thanks, I do know the general route tho, it was just about the process of high renown grinding while swapping in progress considering you are just lacking the 40+ renown

[grim jay]

you will be back at 30 renown

[placid adder]

So if I’m at 31 renown right now don’t do WQ weeklies and dailies and just try to do keys for renown with new catch up?

[strange python]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[alpine garden]

So Venthyr is hands down the fave cov now?

Fair

[indigo mulch]

I'm trying vent for HC week to see how it turns out.

[urban thistle]

I can't think of a single example of another class trying to remove outperforming outliers. You frame these two cases like they're identical, but in reality only the underperforming case exists

[reef axle]

Ugh gonna miss out on 2 renown since I’m still on a week CD, but hopefully catch up mechanic kicks in

[gloomy fern]

catch up is only to 40

[final star]

why would anyone ask for overperforming outliers to be nerfed if they actively main that spec

[sonic schooner]

sub being the go to spec in ptr, kinda feels like deja vu

[echo geyser]

this time it stays

[hasty crater]

So cant find patch notes, no obedience nerfs ?

[marble hemlock]

because it feels cheap to be viable only due to your class being op

and it attracts undesirable people, like coping sub rogues

[final star]

I mean in our example

we're not OP at all

[slow tulip]

sub rogues are a sim trap :/ 480p bait :/

[final star]

problem is that the rogue community doesn't perceive something like obedience being OP, they are told its OP by tc and go along with that without making their own judgement based on overall class performance

plus, the performance of most specs is affected by fight design in raid

[faint harness]

it has more % than other things, must be op

[final star]

[north basin]

So first 3 weeks into the 9.1 we stuck with doomblade anyway afaik, so we can relax and watch tuning meanwhile

[marble hemlock]

looking at where assa will end up, being only slightly behind SP in raw st dmg output, id beg to differ.

[steel bane]

can you go from 40 -> 48 renown in one day ?

[final star]

then warrior comes in at 12k dps sims

[marble hemlock]

doesnt matter if they sim high, warrior is a shit progression class

[final star]

shout gaming

[marble hemlock]

rogue doesnt need to top meters to be viable for progression raiding, and few melee classes can be as active on bosses as rogue is. dk is the only other exception to that, and thats one of the main reasons why they were considered "broken" for most of nathria

[simple wadi]

Sanctum seems super rogue friendly irrespective of damage

[marble hemlock]

as it stands, we'll top the meters together with SP, and no other melee class will be within reach

[final star]

no one is questioning the viability of rogue though (at least I'm not), i'm asking for no kneejerk nerfs to things without very little impactful data other than what sims are saying

[faint harness]

ive seen 2 sims from other classes

and both of them outsim rogue

fury warrior and ret paladins

unironically

[north basin]

2 buttonz no brainers ofc

[faint harness]

so if 2/2 are just beating our st sims, what will the rest do

[final star]

and seli, you are thinking it from the mentality of a top 50 or w/e rank raider

[steel bane]

What I dislike is the "power" being attached to a specific covenant

[final star]

us top 500-1k plebs don't care about what is a good prog spec or not

[north basin]

Lets hope sylva dagger will elevate us into the heaven

[limber lion]

Add the SP sims on top as well. It's been like 3 days since the last sims, so they're probably at 12k by now

[final star]

"APL improvements"

[faint harness]

shadows rising

[steel bane]

@north basin Did thjey say anything about the proc or it went live procless? lol

[gleaming fable]

its ok boys we're still ahead of boomies right?

[final star]

doubt it

[echo geyser]

only ahead of fire mage tbh

[faint harness]

they are working on the effect, dw

[north basin]

Hopefully we will see dagger sim tomorrowz

[gleaming fable]

inb4 they have no idea how to fix sylv dagger and make into a shitty stat proc

[covert basin]

We're crafting obedience on head, right

[limber lion]

No

Cloak

[covert basin]

Alright, wicked I got that shit

[final star]

first step is to make the debuff non-unique

so you can have more than one rogues debuff on an enemy

[north basin]

I pray for some dpswall ST oriented boss which requires rogue stacking!

[final star]

guardian of the first ones

[faint harness]

that'd be guardians ye

but rogue stacking? not sure

especially when other classes just perform better on st

[gusty mirage]

we broke 12k a few days ago, should be up to 18k at this point

[final star]

rofl

apl improvements are coming in hot for spriest

[reef axle]

Hmm wowhead suggesting vers/crit, thought would of been crit/haste

[north basin]

They should refund us for 9.0 tier, so 2-3 rogues in limit stream hopefully

[limber lion]

Crit/Haste is good.,

[ruby birch]

problem with rogues in rwf is lack of utility

[ember jay]

[slender berry]

crafting 2 obedience cloak with different stat to be optimal

[ruby birch]

just craft a crit/mastery obedience

[final star]

can craft it as crit/vers and it be good for both specs

[slender berry]

but what if cris haste sims 2 dps higher for assa

[ruby birch]

your name is blue

[slender berry]

thats surely a case where you need 2 cloaks

[ruby birch]

forget assa

[slender berry]

i cant make my name all 3 colors sadly

[ruby birch]

well tough luck

fate has decided

you must play sub

[slender berry]

is it whichever you picked first or everyone with all speccs is blue
?

looks like a sub rogue conspiracy to me

[ruby birch]

It's everyone with all specs is blue

[limpid plinth]

goodbye my stinky friends

[ruby birch]

The role placement for sub is higher

[ruby birch]

wow, you're leaving the boners?

[limber lion]

[limpid plinth]

yes :/

[slender berry]

see you next tier

after they introduce cov legendaries 2.0

or extra cov conduits

[marble hemlock]

nerfing a singular outlier isnt a kneejerk nerf though.

[final star]

I mean it is when the outlier doesn't put the spec ahead of everyone else

[marble hemlock]

its bringing balance to a class that has been incredibly well balanced this expansion so far

[rapid flame]

where's all theese pre 9.1 sims? Been looking to get an idea of what alt to play, and numbers>everything else x) can't seem to locate any of the 9.1 sims, albeit they may lack significant apl fixing and whatnot

[slender berry]

kneejerk nerf would be if they nerfed rogues bcus of obedience

[odd heath]

Pins

[marble hemlock]

theres two different types of balancing though. theres general tuning, and balancing within a class. having single outliers isnt healthy, especially in a system and environment that offers this much choice, for most people permanent choice

[final star]

Then why

[silent breach]

do i buy the rank 4 Cloack for Obedience now or will we be abel to get it rank 5 insta on mythic week?

[final star]

Hasn't legendaries for every other class

[marble hemlock]

and exactly what migel said. kneejerk nerfing would be lowering assa aura values cause obedience is too good

[final star]

Been nerfed

[rapid flame]

@odd heath that's for rogue yeah, but people taking about warrior, priest and pala sims, i have not been able to find them, looking at discords and whatnot

[final star]

Like arcane mage

Etc

They literally have a single viable legendary

[slender berry]

idk how bad examples should prevent good choices

you want that to happen or?

[marble hemlock]

also this

i like this guy

[faint harness]

rogue is the only balanced spec in the game tho

[marble hemlock]

rogue has been pretty well balanced for how little attention it receives. thats not a bad thing, thats a good thing.

[faint harness]

every other spec is basically "forced" into a covenant

[marble hemlock]

you want to be forced to switch covenants every few weeks cause blizz decides that your 20% GOAT legendary is suddenly no longer supposed to be this good?

or not have freedom to choose specs based on the encounter

[faint harness]

should they nerf our best option just because ppl want to play necro?

[marble hemlock]

they should nerf the best option because something being twice as good as something else when it is locked behind a covenant choice is not good design

[deft obsidian]

👍

[faint harness]

nf is dead for many reasons, shouldnt that get buffed instead

[steel bane]

@marble hemlock Do you agree on Deathspike nerf?

[gusty mirage]

I said it last night and I'll say it again. Play whatever you enjoy most. It doesn't matter what sims higher if you hate it and play it badly because of that

[final star]

But then the problem becomes that the other choices doesn't bring relevancy to that spec

[marble hemlock]

yes. the problem is that deathspikes general design is too binary, so there was no way to nerf it in a different manner without making it either still be too good for outlaw, or useless for everybody

[final star]

So I'd end up playing the same spec for every fight

[slender berry]

deathspike is just terribly designed imo , improving the strength which necro already had even more in such a way where its either op or bad

[final star]

I don't mind playing assassination on every boss

[marble hemlock]

the only other option was to not make it apply the dot, at which point it still wouldve been bis for outlaw

[final star]

I'd like to also play sub

And outlaw too if I felt frisky

[marble hemlock]

the play for deathspike shouldve been to have the legendary allow for 2 stacks to build instead of 1

[final star]

[marble hemlock]

which has almost no impact on aoe

but wouldve improved necro st capabilities

[final star]

Nerfing one of the three back to mediocrity is bad

Based on percentage increase of x over y legendary

[faint harness]

ppl think rogue is OP before we know anything

calling for nerfs before we know anything

[final star]

Because so far this xpac, blizzard doesn't care about that

[faint harness]

i think its weird

[steel bane]

I don't think people are arguing about Rogue beign op

[faint harness]

for the sake of covenant balance that never existed

[hollow talon]

how do i leave the venthyr house

[grim jay]

or they should just buff the other options

[hollow talon]

why is the gate closed

[final star]

Rogue defo not even close to OP

[limber lion]

Take the bat in the center.

[marble hemlock]

which takes way too much resources and time, and when theres 19 options that are well balanced and one outlier, managing to make all these 19 options as good as the outlier is doomed to fail

[final star]

Rogue in its current state has good balance for all three specs

Which is why I don't want any sweeping nerfs

[marble hemlock]

nerfing one legendary isnt a sweeping nerf

[faint harness]

it is

for 2 specs at least

[final star]

For 2/3 specs it is

[steel bane]

assassination will be fine without Obedience

wtf?

[faint harness]

yea

doomblade isnt bad

[marble hemlock]

you think rogue will no longer be viable if obedience gets nerfed to put venthyr in line with necro/kyrian sims?

meaning itll be a ~4% gain instead of ~10%

[faint harness]

i mean you're just killing another spec

but i guess you dont care about that

[marble hemlock]

how does it KILL another spec?

[grim jay]

I mean, if the overall dps with the "too good" legendary are decently in line and you would trash the class or multiple specs atleast with the nerf, you would have to buff the specs again if you nerf the legendary. so you could in turn just buff some of the other legendaries, like 2-3, noone would complain about no "choice" then 😄

[faint harness]

sub has 4% legendaries

[marble hemlock]

so?

[faint harness]

yea losing like 6% dps is nothing

[pliant grail]

Obedience broken ? :))) or is it the other way? all other legos are just plain and simple thrash!

[faint harness]

on a spec which ppl already think is trolling to play

[rapid flame]

come again?

[grim jay]

it was sarcasm

[faint harness]

diff between finality and obedience

[marble hemlock]

few days ago you argued that sub was viable in nathria, where it didnt have obedience, and didnt have buffs coming to it in 9.1 yet. non obedience sims, i.e. kyrian ones, show it to still sim close to outlaw/assa values. so how exactly does obedience ENABLE sub?

[simple wadi]

Isn’t the long view that super powerful legendaries set you up to actually be sensitive to borrowed power

[faint harness]

yea before the assa buffs

now its definitely not

[rapid flame]

all classes should stay the same

[simple wadi]

And you just get this cycle of being crap until they give you a new crutch

[rapid flame]

one true king

[marble hemlock]

but the assa buffs didnt make assa better than sub. the 9.0.5 covenant changes, in particular to flag/lashing, did.

[grim jay]

so then a broken soulbind would be whats carrying it. seems good

if you go kyrian

[faint harness]

sub also gains a lot from lashing + flag. The difference is large in dps without obedience

[spice spire]

Cttc was fairly large along with db buffs

[final star]

CttC

[grim jay]

now you atleast have versatility in specs with venthyr being a good choice cross-specs 😄

[faint harness]

and necrolord is also a dead covenant for sub, but i dont see anyone make that point

if we want true covenant balance

[rapid flame]

delete covenants

[final star]

Like as balancing stands right now

We have choice based on the specs we want to play

For covenant and legendary

[pine ore]

Which slot we craft obedience?

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/HSBR9/6a2863118e.png

yeah

[final star]

You bring one down it removes that choice

[marble hemlock]

sub is literally the worst spec in the game unless it has obedience

[faint harness]

Nobody is going to play kyrian

[hollow river]

Why would obedience get nerfed and not kyrian leggo

[languid frigate]

Back I think

[marble hemlock]

disregarding a viable alternative because you dont like it doesnt exactly prove your point

[final star]

Then I'll only be 700 dps behind as kyrian assassination

[limber lion]

Correct, it's a cloak slot.

[final star]

[marble hemlock]

its called meaningful choices. its the system we've been given.

[rapid flame]

and its dogshit xD

[final star]

We have meaningful choice without nerfs

[faint harness]

It's not so much about not liking it, kyrian is just ass to play in prog, just like you'd argue sub is

[marble hemlock]

and the goal is to decisively not trash obedience into non-existance, but to tune it to be in line with the rest. where it would still be a good pickup if you want to swap between sub and assa

[pliant grail]

nerfing OB will be a last straw :)) either quiting rogue or just whole 9.1 enough is enough

[south belfry]

Leggos that are way above others tend to get changes

[grim jay]

@marble hemlock mikanikos isnt particularly balanced. if they brought obedience in like with the current mikanikos, I dont think someone would complain, but else.. 😄

[marble hemlock]

just not as overbearing as it currently is

[final star]

And I have zero trust in blizzard to do that, because they are historically bad at it.

[faint harness]

The issue i have with this is that Blizzard cant do modest balancing, 0 trust in them just slightly nerfing something

[cinder drum]

question wowhead saying in the quick look at lego that Zoldyck Insignia is best? i feel thats wrong

[limber lion]

Zoldyck is a really good overall legendary for most use cases.

It's the best legendary for m+

[faint harness]

Look no further than deathspike nerfs

[shadow tusk]

obediance is cringe, cov leggos are cringe, venthyr is cringe, necro is bis

[faint harness]

absolutely destroyed

[limber lion]

But there are better choices for raiding and open world

[cinder drum]

im venthry

[limber lion]

What content do you want to do?

[marble hemlock]

the problem i see time and time again is the blatant spec fanboyism where all the good decisions that are being made for rogue get disregarded because that one change you're really hoping for isnt there yet. thats a pipedream and you gotta wake up and realize at some point, that we're already the most well balanced spec in the game. good or bad outliers of other specs dont change that fact, and you do not want to engage in a balancing approach that would essentially equate to the wild west of balancing

[cinder drum]

raiding

sometimes i pvp mostly raiding

[limber lion]

Then you should probably wait for 9.1 and see what happens to Obedience.

It's looking like the best choice for raiding currently.

But Doomblade is also a great choice and Doomblade is good for PvP as well.

[marble hemlock]

when all specs are within ~200dps of each other, and all covenants are within 3-4% of each other, and theres one outlier, then asking for ALL The other things to be elevated to that same level just isnt gonna happen.

[cinder drum]

i got doomblade but have to remake lego to back

[faint harness]

I mean i will agree that finally having a legendary which is fun to play and doesnt suck is a good thing for sub. But i honestly dont think rogue is anything special and does not need any nerfs to its potential.

[grim jay]

that would be whats best tho 🤷

[marble hemlock]

and whether boomy shoots laserbeams out of their ass or shadowpriests can mindcontrol sylvanas to jump her to her death instantly doesnt change the fact that rogue is well balanced and should remain so, even if it means that one of three specs might not be as good as the others (but still really fucking close compared to other multi-dps classes where you generally have ONE playable spec with ONE playable covenant and ONE playable legendary)

[grim jay]

considering they would need to balance elsewhere anyways

[faint harness]

I mean you out of all people should know that not a single soul will touch the other specs if assa is even 100 dps better on ST.

So how balanced is it really

[hollow river]

They just need to buff the other leggos. No nerfs

[grim jay]

rogue wouldnt get less well balanced in itself if the other legendaries would get pushed to be equally good

[final star]

Unless you outlaw cos they built different and high apm good zug zug

[marble hemlock]

youre essentially asking for a change (or lack of change) that would go against all the previous design decisions that led to us having multiple spec choices per boss, the ability to switch legendary or specs or conduits to tailor our dps to a specific encounter or situation, and bringing a level of flexibility to the raid to boost a certain kind of dps playstyle that no other spec or class offers. just so sub is viable.

[faint harness]

Balance in this case favors the least punishing rogue spec which is assa, its just a better prog spec as most people have pointed out 20 times per day.

If they compensate in other ways while nerfing obedience, go ahead. But the total dps should not be nerfed

[steel bane]

Only thing I ask is don't jebait people. If you're gonna nerf it, fine but do it very soon

[grim jay]

if they nerf venthyr to be a good bit worse than kyrian you would pretty much lose the flexibility you just talked about aswell 😄

[fervent beacon]

@marble hemlock tldr, pls sum it up in like few sentences.

[faint harness]

Achieving perfect balance is a pipe dream that usually doesnt exist in a game this complex

[frosty cedar]

i think they will nerf the 9.7k simming retri paladins in only HC gear first

[slender hare]

Is dashing scoundrel really the best for aoe now over zoldyk? That's what blood mallet says now

[limber lion]

No

[grim jay]

considering ffxiv did historically do a better job at it, there is room to improve tho 😄

[limber lion]

That's not what HecticAddCleave means.

HAC is a simulation of constant add waves

It's not "aoe"

Zoldyck is still the best choice for M+.

[echo geyser]

bloodmallet

[faint harness]

Can always improve ofc, but before blizzard can carefully balance things i wont hold my breath

its either broken or shit

[hollow river]

Where are people getting this idea

[dawn pike]

he said he got it from bloodmallet

[final star]

The problem with blizzards balancing is that it's not incremental

[hollow river]

I didn’t think so. Someone was asking in here last night and I told them we use doomblade.

[echo geyser]

recommend using herodamage instead

[final star]

Weekly incremental balancing is far more successful than patch based balancing

[limber lion]

No.

[slender hare]

Rgr.

[echo geyser]

u wot?

[final star]

Roger 👍😂

Man too lazy to type oe

[hollow river]

I didn’t think so someone was asking last night and I told them we use doom

[echo geyser]

tbh after looking at herodmg myself, i never used it for assa

[fervent beacon]

Yeah for ST

[echo geyser]

it also says dashing is better on dslice if i read it correctly

[hollow river]

And for cleave

[limber lion]

We use Doomblade for 1-2targets

[fervent beacon]

Zoldyck is also another good choice

[limber lion]

For what?

[fervent beacon]

I assume for keys

[echo geyser]

maybe i cant read it correctly but

[hollow river]

I’m talking about raid cleave

[limber lion]

Well we're not talking about keys here lol

[limber lion]

Zoldyck is the best choice for m+.

[marble hemlock]

why?

[grim jay]

because kyrian is shit for sin for example

[echo geyser]

are the top ones just meaning head/chest/legs are best

[marble hemlock]

then you picka covenant thats good for both

[echo geyser]

yeah sure but how do i interpret it

and since zolds are on legs = best then

?

[limber lion]

You don't look at HD

[fleet whale]

wait why do we all want venth to be nerfed now

[limber lion]

because it's outdated

[faint harness]

you would just be necrolord if they nerf venthyr

[marble hemlock]

its not like youre gonna wipe to a boss cause you picked a covenant that does 2% less damage than the "best" one

[rapid flame]

yet again losing flexibility @marble hemlock xd

[limber lion]

But that's just showing how much value the item gives you

But you don't need to look at the stat-things

They're kinda dumb

[grim jay]

that would be venthyr, considering sub ST isnt trash after the nerf with venthyr, which would make the choice non-existent in the first place

[echo geyser]

yeah idk i never used this for sin, i was only checking herodmg for trinkets start of patch pretty much

[marble hemlock]

if the outcome of a nerf would lead to all covenants being closer to each other, as in the difference between best and worst being smaller, how is that losing flexibility?

[echo geyser]

simming own char over anything

[faint harness]

well they should massively buff NF then

if we want some balance

[echo geyser]

scratch what i said, always sim urself

[faint harness]

I am up for some NF buffs tbh

[fleet whale]

are there actually gonna be any venthyr nerfs are or you all just dooming

[final star]

Also look at talents

[marble hemlock]

it doesnt need a massive buff. but yes, NF is currently looking a bit too weak compared to the last patch

[hollow river]

They hopefully will

[echo geyser]

yeah man i noticed this sin is weird af

[grim jay]

if the best to good choices on sin would be trashy on sub you lose flexibility because there is no reason to multispec those 2 in the first place

[faint harness]

The answer to that is just to not play sub obviously and sit on necrolord

[ember jay]

idk how you manage to keep a pointless discussion going that long

[marble hemlock]

NF lost the advantage it had in 9.0, where it had the strongest soulbinds to make up for its lackluster conduit/covenant class ability. with the new soulbinds all being really fucking good, and the NF ones being just "as good" as the others, it naturally fell behind

[faint harness]

True

[echo geyser]

which covenant has the best utility tho

[faint harness]

idk how you could make such a pointless comment

[fleet whale]

ok i'm out of the loop, why does everyone think venth is going to get nerfed

[marble hemlock]

but bringing obedience in line with the other legendaries doesnt make venthyr unplayable for either spec, so you would still play venthyr if you wanted to play sub and assa, only it wouldnt be as "overpowered" compared to other options?

[echo geyser]

just based on sims ofc, u can see pins in sub/sin

[marble hemlock]

so, again, how would that lower flexibility?

[fleet whale]

yeah but looking at pins the only thing that may need tuning

[echo geyser]

not like anyone has logs on anything meaningful

[fleet whale]

is a leggo

don't think the covenant as a whole needs a nerf

[echo geyser]

yeah but when people say "nerf venthyr" they mean obedience

not the cov

[faint harness]

this would be a good thing, i think most ppl are worried about blizz hammer being too harsh as it tends to be

[grim jay]

ye but if sub is basically worse or equal on ST than/as sin without it, why would you use sub in the first place? you dont have a reason to swap then

if it really turns out as you say it would be fine

[echo geyser]

nothing about baseline venthyr is "op"

lol

[grim jay]

but I dont think anyone expects the nerf to take a decent direction

[limber lion]

Did you guys notice Max talking about Obedience on his stream yesterday?

[marble hemlock]

it doesnt. its just a tuning change on obedience thats needed, and if that happens and its in line with doomblade/zoldyck for assa, it would still be slightly better than akaari for sub, but not to the point where its the only viable choice for sub, and youd be back in the spot we were in ~4days ago before the newest obedience sim catapulted it to the top

[echo geyser]

what he say

[faint harness]

i mean if they nerf obedience to be within akaari then sub is just trash

once again

and if they dont, then sub also only have 1 legendary to play

and it only really changed for assa

[tidal dust]

So for raiding we go Venth assa now?

[topaz echo]

NF sub obviously

[fervent beacon]

NFer in shambles

[marble hemlock]

the problem is that youre not looking at the broader picture. youre looking at it through the incredibly narrow lense of "how can we balance this and keep sub viable". thats not how balancing works, and it shouldnt work like that either.

[faint harness]

So the solutions all benefit assa but nothing else, and thats fine i guess. But we cant speak about spec fanboyism and then drop that

[marble hemlock]

its not an assa specific solution. its nerfing an outlier.

that has nothing to do with spec

[faint harness]

I mean its just a straight bigger nerf to one spec

which already requires something special to keep up

[rapid flame]

@marble hemlock are you seriously expecting blizzard, that in case anything gets nerfed they will not completely destroy the spec and make it unplayable for an entire expansion?

[grim jay]

@marble hemlock as I said before, if they tune obedience down to be in line with say akaari, you wont have any flexibility in swapping back because sub ST, which is the thing they would bring to the raid now, is on-paar or even actually worse than sin, while sin still has all the other advantages over sub

[marble hemlock]

goat got nerfed for boomy. a shitton of other legendaries got nerfed because they were massive outliers. those werent because those classes were too good or not good enough, blizzard just doesnt like introducing systems that are supposed to offer choice, and then only one of those choices being viable. its why they nerfed CD reduction trait stacking in legion, its why they nerfed smth like first dance for sub in dazlar, and its why they nerfed deathspike already

[faint harness]

boat was like 20% tho

[final star]

Nerfing boat doesn't affect

[marble hemlock]

and yes, you can now proceed to point out broken stuff that didnt get nerfed, but lack of consistency doesnt invalidate a healthy balancing approach

[final star]

Feral

[misty holly]

Sub has just as many advantages. Sub (after patch) looks like it will have better aoe, and it has better mobility with double shadowstep.

[final star]

Or bear

[rapid flame]

healthy balancing approach PepeLaugh

[final star]

That's the issue with most of our lehendaries

Nerfing it affects all three specs

[marble hemlock]

if you disagree with the notion that rogue has been incredibly well balanced thus far in shadowlands, then idk what to tell you

[final star]

Which is why it's a nightmare

[faint harness]

If we're totally honest in this conversation all classes but rogue has 1 real choice for legendary

[marble hemlock]

eh

[dreamy axle]

what nerfs what did i miss?

[marble hemlock]

sub has 2

akaari for st, finality for cleave/aoe

depending on situation

[grim jay]

if you need aoe you can just swap to outlaw with necro. and it depends of the scale and duration of aoe if sub would even be worth considering over sin then, aside from multiple classes having enough aoe to potentially make sin a cleave/st bot

[ancient kraken]

How does nerfing obed make sub with akaari more viable? You can still play it now if you want. You will do the same damage as when obed receives a nerf.

[rapid flame]

That completely depends in what content you refer to

[marble hemlock]

(which is already more flexibility than, like, over 50% of specs btw)

[faint harness]

i freudian slipped and called rogue sub

and i meant that all other specs have 1 choice

rogue has more than 1

[marble hemlock]

yeah