assassination

[balmy condor]

we call a profile basically a /simc input

the problem is, obedience isn't something you can /simc

I'm gonna speed through this part since a little more involved

but obedience on a cloak

is the following input

[indigo mulch]

Why was that msg pinned whispyr? 😮

Are people really that mad that sub sims higher? D:

[spice spire]

People trolling earlier

[balmy condor]

back=grimveiled_cape,id=173242,bonus_id=6716/7572/6647/6649/1559

that's a max ilvl

you can add ,ilevel=x to the end of that, changing X to your ilvl that you want

so you're gonna replace your back that you have, with that line

now you have a doomblade

[spice spire]

I know you’re speeding through but the id=x is what dictates the legendary Put on the cape correct?

[balmy condor]

I mean uh

obedience

[balmy condor]

id is the base legendary item cape

[spice spire]

Ahhh

[balmy condor]

the bonus ID's dictate what legendary it turns into

so you can for example make an MA on a tabard if you'd like

[spice spire]

Continue

[indigo mulch]

There is no way obedience makes it through the first round of nerfs/buffs before mythic week.

[balmy condor]

now we have a simc

we're gonna go to advanced with that

and just paste that in

1 down

now you need your second one, which has doomblade, you can just top gear that one

and then hit the buttons and copy it

(last button on the right to copy)

then go back to your advanced sim

and put that sucker right under that

now you have an obedience, and a doomblade

obedience won't sim on live, so you gotta sim a ptr

you do that by going to the very very top

and typing ptr=1

that should enable things like obedience

then you just sim like normal, choose your targets/length, and go

[errant plover]

what's the difference from the beta raidbots build you were simming on earlier and the raidbots build us peons have access to?

[civic trellis]

!guides

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[balmy condor]

the top gear is easier to use because it has all the soulbinds available

it's basically what you'll see when 9.1 goes live

just makes it easier

and allows top gear for ptr

[errant plover]

ah, but same algorithms?

[balmy condor]

yes

[knotty glade]

Sin stats is Haste/Crit right ?

[errant plover]

nice

[indigo mulch]

Raidbots prob didnt have all the new APL changes.

[nimble tartan]

what slot is obedience on rq

[errant plover]

so I can just go steal your profiles and reuse right? 😄

[balmy condor]

you could

[balmy condor]

cloak

[nimble tartan]

nice ty

[indigo mulch]

People are really vibing off that obedience.

[balmy condor]

the beta raidbots, and the normal raidbots actually run the same servers

so it's the same content on either one

[errant plover]

sweet

ty sir

[indigo mulch]

I saw you edit the APL though D:

[balmy condor]

yeah, that's kinda what I do

[indigo mulch]

Then its not the same? :X

[balmy condor]

wat

you wouldn't have access to the APL I'm editting anyway

the apl I'm changing is for my sim

[indigo mulch]

No i know, but you said its the same, but when you did it earlier i assumed the changes you edited was not in. I guess they are now right? o.o

Fleshcraft to be specific.

[balmy condor]

I had to add those manually cause they aren't in

when they go into simc, they'll be in both places

[spice spire]

quick tutorial thanks papi whispyr

[errant plover]

so live simc is missing pustule and obediance update?

[balmy condor]

me editting APL on raidbots does not have any effect on sims for anything other than that one specific sim that I run with that edited APL

[balmy condor]

obedience is in, pustules is in, but pustules doesn't have an APL yet

[indigo mulch]

what does pustule actually do though?

[balmy condor]

and there's a couple APL things for obedience that aren't in either

[balmy condor]

fleshcraft does damage

[errant plover]

my small brain does not understand what the APL does

[balmy condor]

that's about it

the APL is just the lines of code that the bot runs to play that spec

[errant plover]

oh got it

[balmy condor]

so if you go into top gear

[indigo mulch]

I feel like it wont even be close to theotar and the other bigboy soulbind. I might be wrong though

[balmy condor]

it'll go to whatever simc version raidbots is running

and will go "hey what this spec do"

[errant plover]

so it's not simming proper usage to maximize dps

[balmy condor]

and simc will spit back a list of actions that the spec should do

that's the APL

what I do is I edit that APL to find gains

[errant plover]

yep, brain slightly bigger, ty again

[balmy condor]

if I find a gain, I pass it along, or submit it as a change

if that gets accepted, it gets put into the next simc version

so then the next day when raidbots pulls the new version

it'll ask "hey this spec"

and get new actions

[errant plover]

all this stuff fascinates me

[indigo mulch]

o.O

[nimble tartan]

when can we craft obedience

[indigo mulch]

Tedious work if you ask me. 😒

[balmy condor]

first week of mythic I believe

[errant plover]

I can understand the enjoyment of it tho

[nimble tartan]

noice ok

so we chillin on doomblade before then

[balmy condor]

apparently 80 people wanted to watch it today

so that's cool

[indigo mulch]

@balmy condor Do you think obedience will actually make it through nerf/buff before mythic though? :X

[nimble tartan]

u gotta do donation like 25 mininum to sim a specific thing of their choosing

no matter how ridic

[indigo mulch]

I mean as it looks like right now, all 3 specs have to go venthyr just based on how strong obedience is.

You don't HAVE to but like.. why wouldnt you?

[balmy condor]

who knows

they left in boat for 2 patches

mage legendaries and conduits are stronger than obedience is

maybe they just let us have things

or maybe they stomp it

[indigo mulch]

Mages borrowed power is stupid.

in 9.0.5 they got what? 1.4k dps just from conduit and legendary?

I'm fine with going sub as long as i don't have to play kyrian 😐

[gusty mirage]

just play what you like

[indigo mulch]

Kyrian's covenant ability is really not much fun to use tbh. Seams clunky

[indigo mulch]

To me the fun comes in when you get muster every single drop of dps out of your character.

[weak bane]

!opener

anyone have the venth sin opener?

[balmy condor]

I mean, then I wouldn't worry about covenants at all

[spice spire]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[indigo mulch]

Sounds weird i guess but I don't think i would enjoy playing something that's not optimal. I would always think "hey if i had that covenant i would do way more dps overall than this"

[balmy condor]

yeh guide does

[thorny pond]

Same as necro just no SBS

[weak bane]

ah ok ty

yeah just want to make sure im using flag at the right time

[gusty mirage]

right before your first rupture

then on cd

[thorny pond]

I have ptsd about flag openers today

Flag rupture vend

[spice spire]

Thing is, way more doesn’t come in usually. Unless obedience is in I guess

[gusty mirage]

meh I'm done fretting over it

if they nerf it they nerf it

if they don't they don't

[thorny pond]

Obi also let’s us sync 2nd vend and 3rd flag much easier

[gusty mirage]

worrying about it now doesn't change anything

[thorny pond]

Good attitude

[indigo mulch]

[gusty mirage]

and if somehow night fae comes back from the dead I'll suck it up and go night fae

[balmy condor]

ya ever work on sub APL

[thorny pond]

Glad you went for more of the Dude rather than Walter

[thorny pond]

Pass thanks

[sonic spire]

O … so if (decently sized if) I did this right obi is just garbo (relative) with more than 1 target?

[gusty mirage]

APL stuff is fun

[spice spire]

Sub? That ape channel

[gusty mirage]

madness inducing but fun

[thorny pond]

I’ll send you screens of me arguing with this guy about why his opener is wrong

And trying to explain to him snapshot is not a thing

[indigo mulch]

If/when they nerf obi we can just get our pitchforks and chase whispyr down the street.

[spice spire]

Beach going through a tear recently

Truly trying to be an ethical rogue, blessed

[thorny pond]

I don’t mind helping but when your argument is that you did better on a dummy your way I’m spent

And then having to explain that 10k sim iterations doesn’t mean that the right was was best every time but it is the best most of the time

I need a bath

[spice spire]

!def

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz

[gusty mirage]

I'll have at the very least the mobs & bosses and abilities in

tomorrow

[indigo mulch]

You know i kinda miss being able to cloak 90% of mechanics 😦

[gusty mirage]

then comes the unfun part of testing everything

[sonic spire]

@balmy condor do you think this looks realistic - its using your max gear profiles and looks like it basically means you're trolling if you play Obi on cleave D:

[civic trellis]

Uhm

I thought venomous vim would be a linear function

Weird

[spice spire]

Was going to mention the hands thing about cloaking the succ soul on fourth boss of top

But you covered it

[balmy condor]

yep seems reasonable

[spice spire]

Truly blessed

[civic trellis]

Its normal behaviour to give 100 energy ticking 4 secs?

[sonic spire]

:c goodbye venth dreams

[civic trellis]

like, a rupture is on a target that dies in 3-4 secs

[gloomy knoll]

venth is de wae

[civic trellis]

and after the target dies gives 100 energy

is that normal?

[balmy condor]

yeah

that's normal

[indigo mulch]

Necrobois4ever

[sonic spire]

thank you for teaching and being always super helpful, i appreciate you very much ❤️

[balmy condor]

[civic trellis]

but then letting it tick for 7-8 secs gives like 60 energy

wait its a decreasing function?

uhm

[balmy condor]

might do a teaching session on stream tomorrow

don't have a lot to sim

[gusty mirage]

[drifting cloud]

did koji comment on new sims yet

[thorny pond]

Ping me please

[gusty mirage]

I got you bb @thorny pond

[spice spire]

@thorny pond here’s your ping chief

[indigo mulch]

Pretty sure he was there yesterday Ryler.

[thorny pond]

❤️

[balmy condor]

yeah, you get less energy, the less rupture is remaining

[civic trellis]

Oh

[balmy condor]

comment how

[gusty mirage]

Koji straight trolled whispyr with Kevin

that's a comment

[drifting cloud]

well hes big bonerlord fan wonder what he thinks now 😛

[civic trellis]

Then, would be worth to rupture a target dying in 4-5 secs if you are low in energy?

talking about like 2-3t cleave scenario

[spice spire]

He turned the ac off in the basement

[balmy condor]

he was feeding me his fleshcraft APL all stream telling me about the wonders of necro soulbinds

that fuck

[gusty mirage]

But plague deviser and kevin

think of KEVIN

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

oh and complaining about how strong obedience is

and how overtuned it is

[indigo mulch]

It is overtuned though

lol

[gusty mirage]

hot take: maybe the rest of our stuff is undertuned

[spice spire]

It seems a little overtuned ngl

[gusty mirage]

🙂

[spice spire]

But whatever

[drifting cloud]

do you know obedience % from no leggo on top of your head whispyr?

[spice spire]

Needs more aura buff

[balmy condor]

old man koji yells at clouds

[spice spire]

Will feel better at 101%

[gusty mirage]

[drifting cloud]

its more than 10 right?

[civic trellis]

11% iirc?

[balmy condor]

it's like 10.5% for sub, and 9% for sin

somewhere around there

[gloomy knoll]

damn

not even half

of arcanes bis leggo

[drifting cloud]

wasnt db like 7%?

[gloomy knoll]

when we go get a 15-22% leggo

like every other class

[balmy condor]

yeh

[gloomy knoll]

shitty blizzard

buff rogue

[drifting cloud]

and its more than 3% higher than db

[balmy condor]

oh right the APL change was 1.2

uh

[sick scarab]

fuck my life it seems i am forced to swap ffs

[balmy condor]

then I guess around 11% for each spec

[gusty mirage]

people thought doomblade was going to get nerfed too

[drifting cloud]

very balance much wow

[gloomy knoll]

rogues are the only spec in the game

*class

who expect to get shit on

[spice spire]

Nerf @gusty mirage

[gloomy knoll]

and don't rejoice when they finally get good things

we're so fucking abused mate

[drifting cloud]

did they I dont remember people being scared of db nerfs atleast

[gusty mirage]

I'm already trash though @spice spire

[gloomy knoll]

like oh no this seems good

[balmy condor]

people were terrified of DB nerfs

[gloomy knoll]

blizzard go nerf us

[spice spire]

Nah, you’re too cute

[gloomy knoll]

instead

[indigo mulch]

Nerf shadowpriests 😦

[gloomy knoll]

every other class

demands to be good

[balmy condor]

we must learn from ranged specs

[gloomy knoll]

you see hunters on the forums rn?

literally freaking THE FUCK out

[gusty mirage]

no u

[balmy condor]

and instead of saying that 1 legendary is overtuned

we change mindsets

and say everything else is undertuned

[gloomy knoll]

buff our undertuned leggos

yes

whispyr smart

rogue dumb

[balmy condor]

fucking blizzard

buff everything

[gloomy knoll]

giving us

shitty db

and finality

not even 10%+ leggos

[balmy condor]

akaari is awful

[gloomy knoll]

buff doomblade and finality

[gusty mirage]

tbf we are undertuned considering our role in raid

[drifting cloud]

ehhhh

[indigo mulch]

That we are

[balmy condor]

duskwalkers should be double the effect

[drifting cloud]

lets not do this again

[balmy condor]

honestly

[indigo mulch]

SP's seams to be better than us at pretty much everything D:

[gusty mirage]

I'm not saying we should be 10% higher than everyone else

[gloomy knoll]

duskwalkers should give us 1 min cd vendetta

and make vendetta 10% stronger

on god

too weak

[gloomy knoll]

rogue is literally diet shadow priest

they do exactly what we do but ranged and better

[drifting cloud]

im never gonna get my followers to 60 if im different covenant every month

[gloomy knoll]

bruh

i been every single covenant this tier

[indigo mulch]

we're like budge shadowpriests 😄

[gloomy knoll]

meaningful choice can kiss the whitest part of my ass

[drifting cloud]

ye if I swapped nf when I was sitting on slg

[gusty mirage]

imagine going night fae

[drifting cloud]

id have all 4 on 40 for like 3months

[balmy condor]

aren't you a brown boy?

[drifting cloud]

but nf is on like 5

[gloomy knoll]

half brown half white

but i don't go outside currently so i look white

[balmy condor]

I will offer my ass in your stead

[gloomy knoll]

i go outside i get brown real quick

[balmy condor]

I glow in the dark

[gloomy knoll]

LOL

the moon is out

[gusty mirage]

[balmy condor]

I'm one of the "needs sunscreen to take a walk around the block in may" kinda white whites

[drifting cloud]

now only 1 question remains do I do hc week as necro or venth

[pale fossil]

Both.

[balmy condor]

necro for the first 5

and then finish as venth

[gusty mirage]

bright side is

I'm switching back to a fully upgraded sanctum

more time to do that sick ember court content

[indigo mulch]

True same for me :

😮

[balmy condor]

I haven't farmed anima all expansion

my followers are like

level 15

at best

[gusty mirage]

missing out

you can literally throw a party once a week

[indigo mulch]

You know what my secret addiction is for m+? Survival hunter

[fluid dust]

what are spriests simming for currently in 9.1?

[civic trellis]

and still continues lol

Topkek

Look what i found wondering if rupture sniping was worth

😄

[steel ridge]

Teach me senpai

[balmy condor]

[hazy sundial]

Whats "Dauntless" ?

[steel ridge]

Nadja trait

Dauntless duelist

[balmy condor]

you are

chin up king

[soft shale]

someone that is not afraid to brave danger @hazy sundial also a nadja trait

[rapid vigil]

Necro still meta for assas PvP?

[soft shale]

yes it got a surv nerf but a damage buff on last balance

[deep carbon]

how is bone spike looking for 9.1 vs flag?

[civic trellis]

So, in summary, rupture sniping is worth only with 4-5 cp ruptures and if you arent overcapping energy with the gain

[sand sigil]

spriest is a disgusting class smh

the thing is this will actually be attainable since mechagnome is v small gain vs goblin and they don't have to worry abt wft. like rogue in practice always gonna be ~400 dps below the sim

sadge

[cinder skiff]

Where did you get this?

[sand sigil]

inside spriest info

i know a guy who knows a guy

he said nf performs better in practice cuz nf apl kinda sucks

[cinder skiff]

Good enough for me! Cheers

[balmy condor]

Unethical

[vestal wren]

assassination is usually fairly close to sims, subtlety tends to be slightly behind

[sand sigil]

yeah i just mean like the # they got on paper is what they get. honestly wft should just be excluded from sims as a baseline these days 😂 just have to hope there's a lot of movement lol

[vestal wren]

there was quite some discussion about it

the problem with wft is rly the ranged meta

[sand sigil]

TRUE

[vestal wren]

as much as we hate to admit it, raiding is highly in favour of ranged classes and they don't get tuned accordingly

[sand sigil]

if blizz just tuned melee higher then there'd actually be a decision to make

yeppppp

instead they have ranged that also do insane damage lmao

[vestal wren]

it also comes down to design decisions blizz made

if we look back to earlier xpacs, ranged would not have options to easily deal with raid mechanics

[sand sigil]

true, but fight encounters were also way simpler then

[vestal wren]

these days most ranged classes have multiple options essentially making those not rly a impact factor

[sand sigil]

i mean it's hard not to create a fight that doesn't favor ranged tbf. like unless u want some kind of tank and spank, there's almost always a favorable reason to have more ranged than melee if they do comparable dps

[vestal wren]

it would be easier if ranged would have more costs from movement

because ranged mechanics would directly impact their output

[sand sigil]

even fights that favor melee id argue like painsmith just get canceled because ppl bring classes for what's going to be best for last boss

[sand sigil]

yeah true

[vestal wren]

and blizz would not be forced to tune them lower

the main problem in raiding is also usually not that melee is strictly bad

melee is good on most fights

but the fights it isn't its very bad

this creates a further bias towards ranged dps

[oak sky]

Dang so spriest really is pushing 11k

Might have to actually play my alt

[gloomy knoll]

rogue = diet spriest

[oak sky]

I saw that

[gloomy knoll]

[oak sky]

No dont worry

Who cares about priest

Pray all the other melee suck instead

[south belfry]

Imagine simping god

[gloomy knoll]

problem is

even if all the melee suck

u just take more ranged lol

[oak sky]

Its not like theyre giving melee spots to priest right guys

[gloomy knoll]

bring w/e u need for buffs and that's it

[oak sky]

Cant wait to see 1 dh for chaos brand/darkness and 1 warrior for rally.... as the tank

[gritty flame]

And 1 Monica first phys dmf

F. T9

[vestal wren]

they won't during progression

[gloomy knoll]

[vestal wren]

sims are for mythic farm, so very late in the xpac

[gloomy knoll]

bladess my guy you alright?

[gritty flame]

I mean 1 monk

[gloomy knoll]

if melee suck you wouldn't take a monk

monk buff is already the weakest one

[oak sky]

Dont need that buff with less hunters and no melee

[gritty flame]

[sonic schooner]

Want good melees ?

[gloomy knoll]

or at most you'd run like

[sonic schooner]

Bring hpal

[vestal wren]

it rly depends

[sonic schooner]

[gloomy knoll]

monk tank dh tank and 1 warrior

if all melee sucked

[vestal wren]

monk buff is a lot weaker than e.g. dh buff

but it comes down to how much physical damage you deal

if you have a low amount already you are probably better packing one more shadow priest

[gloomy knoll]

yea

[oak sky]

Im sure in rwf we still most likely see dh warr monk dk

Maybe a rogue who knows

[vestal wren]

likely

[oak sky]

I cant know im just a shitter and of course 1 or 2 of those will be tank

[vestal wren]

i haven't followed monk, but they seem to have good tuning

[oak sky]

Yeah monk is good when theyre good

[gloomy knoll]

they aoe still insane so

any fight that needs cleave or aoe

monk can easily be brought to

[oak sky]

I kinda feel like we see warrior and bear

[gloomy knoll]

no reason to ever take a bear

when melee buffs exist

buff tanks means you can take less melee

[oak sky]

But if havoc is good and ww is good

[gloomy knoll]

they not as good as ranged

[oak sky]

You can get away with it

[sonic schooner]

I thought I read somewhere it might be war monk for this tier

[vestal wren]

i wouldn't sign this, limit max did speak a lot about bringing the right tank class instead of just taking the one with the best raid buff

[gloomy knoll]

interesting

[oak sky]

Im literally just giving a shitter opinion based on no research

I could see dk

[gloomy knoll]

blood dk has good amz so

[oak sky]

Max keeps talking about their better qmz

[gloomy knoll]

kind of a viable option now

[oak sky]

Exactly

[vestal wren]

we go down a bit to far into the "melee bad/ranged op" direction

so far we don't know for sure how things end up and tuning will probably fix some issues too

[gloomy knoll]

well yea all the tank / melee roles are dependent on tuning

[vestal wren]

ranged too to some degree

you won't want to bring the weaker ranged specs

[gloomy knoll]

if a buff dps spec is bad you take the tank but if the tank is shit you also can't take the tank so they just gotta figure out what's the best fit

like hunter

i'm assuming they go get buffs

after heroic week

cuz lawdy are they meh rn

[oak sky]

I kinda get this feeling we still will see a hunter

[vestal wren]

i am not sold on hunter

[oak sky]

At least 1

[gloomy knoll]

literally had

gm of pieces

saying hunters suck

and he plays hunter

lol

hes like welp i'm glad i made other classes

[oak sky]

Damn

[vestal wren]

problem for hunters is i can't judge their sim quality without looking further into the class

[gloomy knoll]

they apl isn't great but

also not trash

iirc

is ok

[oak sky]

I guess their burst aoe is kinda dead right without wild spirits

And st is meh

[vestal wren]

i know rogue is good because i know koji/mystler an me did spend a lot of time optimizing the apl

[gloomy knoll]

just got better options

[vestal wren]

whispyr/etc also lately did some apl changes

[oak sky]

Yeah they just take a priest or somethinf huh

[vestal wren]

more people doing optimization is just better for the class

[gloomy knoll]

yea

figure out neat little things

or good builds

that would otherwise be ignored

also just makes the classes players better as a whole

[sonic schooner]

I d like to see ranged lose some dmg in anyway when they have to be close to a boss

[gloomy knoll]

because of the knowledge and optimizations

[sonic schooner]

Would be intresting to kill the advantage they have

[vestal wren]

i encourage people to just ask if they have questions about apl/optimizations

its very often that you double check sth or just think there was a good point in a discussion

and then go to modify the apl and find a damage win

[gloomy knoll]

15,000 heads are better than one

xD

[sonic schooner]

Whisp head = 15000

[gloomy knoll]

all the tc'ers worth a lot

fuu whispyr koji mystler etc

[oak sky]

Doing the lords work

[gloomy knoll]

i love having so much information to access about the spec

[sonic schooner]

I don't understand a little shit about apl and stuff but I know we re doing great as rogue

[gloomy knoll]

really makes it hard to play other shit

lol

[vestal wren]

i don't think there is a contest between tcs

[sonic schooner]

Definitely no

At least from my pleb ppv

Pov

[oak sky]

The rogue community seems to have shit figured out, but i dont have experience with other classes really

[vestal wren]

everyone is welcome to contribute and if someone does something it does not make anyone's else work less relevant ^^

[oak sky]

I want to contribute by doing dam

[gloomy knoll]

lol

[vestal wren]

tbh critical thinking is sth very essential

[sonic schooner]

I contribute by spamming shiv

[vestal wren]

e.g. if you think something in the guides is wrong, discuss it

we had a discussion about pre pull shb in bfa when someone was like, why do we do this?

and given how shb and the rotation worked, it actually made sense for me to double check

(ofc the damage impact was only minimal)

neverless we are slightly offtopic, lets return to topic

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/37e840d7350eaddec47218b503375a8f4c5c3d0b

kevin got a buff 😛

[oak sky]

Kevin

[sonic schooner]

[vestal wren]

i mean it atm doesn't matter given the strength of venthyr

[oak sky]

And even then we probably go heirmir over marileth

Correct?

[vestal wren]

likely yes

[rancid warren]

Seems good for pvp though

But still heirmir over merileth i suppose

[vestal wren]

pvp balance works diffrent

[soft shale]

on pvp marileth got a damage buff but surv nerf

120 mastery is quite a lot to have in pvp given how assa damage works

[oak sky]

I trust it

[north basin]

Would we become stronger this week after reset on myth dena? Or fight will remain same for us?

[soft shale]

we get an extra potency if we do the 3 renown available

1 for each soulbind

[oak sky]

Get that last juicer parse in

[soft shale]

so depending on class/spec you will get around 2% to 5% extra dps

and well the tuning from 9.1

[north basin]

Ouch

[oak sky]

Do balance changes go in then as well?

Oh

[north basin]

But tuning wont come this reset no?

[soft shale]

it will come on the same week as patch june 30 eu june 29 NA

[oak sky]

Year of the spear starts tuesday

[soft shale]

spear?

[pliant grail]

@vestal wren are u planing to update ur spreadsheet? 🙂 it was awesome at start

[north basin]

Besides extra potency thats all?

[slow marsh]

Did whisp die yet

[vestal wren]

yes i plan to

[soft shale]

yes first week it's extra potency and 9.1 tuning

of course korthia also opens

to begin farming rep

[vestal wren]

^ i probably won't update it before patch comes live

[north basin]

But right now on patchnotes there is a zero assa tuning

[vestal wren]

because it makes sense to wait for the changes to be in

[north basin]

Or i miss something

[sonic schooner]

Max ilvl dagger in the first vault

[vestal wren]

the 9.1 patch has some covenant tuning that isn't in simc/on ptr yet

the "upcoming covenant tuning" post blizz did essential

[vestal wren]

only spec that gets direct changes is subtlety

[north basin]

Ye this i saw

[vestal wren]

but 9.1 has new systems and additions to old systems that will change stuff

[north basin]

Iam just wondering about total raid balance and rogues in particular on denatrius myth, my mate trying to kill it before raid hits)

So 1 week worth of tries, wanted to encourage him

[queen herald]

I just woke up, how come that venthyr is now better than necro??

went necro this week

jeez

[north basin]

Ahhahha

We doomed!

U can swap anytime after u see logs on hc week.

[queen herald]

yeah but i wanted to know why venthyr is so much "better" now, i guess there was something happening on ptr?

[royal lantern]

what else lol

[queen herald]

yeah but what did they buff in particular

the venthyr leggo?.

[pliant grail]

I bow to u sir

[north basin]

I heard new leggo add versatility in addition to haste and it makes ST stonk!

[vestal wren]

btw. i am not sure whispyr mentioned/know this

but he was confused why the sims did get higher even with no change

thats because blizz changed wft

and it now gives everyone more benefits again

[soft shale]

yea rank 2 of wft now applies pog

oh wait where is our shaman

[vestal wren]

it also seems to atm apply wrong in shaman sims

so they probably get 30% instead of 20% benefit

not sure actually, need a shaman to double check it (tho their tc's are onto that)

[potent dagger]

wft ?

[soft shale]

wind fury totem

[north basin]

We had zero ench shamans for whole xpac, sad reality check vs sims(

[potent dagger]

oh ok i don't have an enh Sham in my roster T_T

[soft shale]

dont worry only real min maxers will field necro warriors and kyrian hunters too

for the omega parses

[oak sky]

China guilds go brrrr

[soft shale]

if you though PI was something it is only the beginning

also kyrian druids forgot about them

wonder if you can get linked to more than 1 druid

[potent dagger]

it wil be venth druid ^^

after 48 renown

[soft shale]

yea but what if you paid someone 2 million to become your simp for parses

that is what literally happens on china

[potent dagger]

yeah XD i've had one

it was awesome

and then he changed to NF -_-

[vestal wren]

we discussed this earlier

the problem with wft is not that its bad its that melee is not as wanted as ranged

and it needs to pay off to be worth considering another melee dps

[soft shale]

also for some fucky reason wft only works on party

like really blizzzz

[vestal wren]

tbh i think that is a interesting spin

i am not sure if wfr raid comps will bring enh, but there is a possibility

[soft shale]

if it worked on whole raid it would be super good now you are hamstringed because you only really buff 4

warriors could also have this problems btw if wf guilds drop hunters

[sick scarab]

k i know an blizz insider .. he told me fae and legendary onslaught will be BIS soon

(my dream)

lol

joking afk.. ffs

[soft shale]

not the worst bait but have to let it sit for a while

[teal bluff]

I have a very situational question. How would you guys handle the big slime pull in PF as sin rogue? The one before the first boss with like 20 of em since they one die so fast, and two have little health so my other dps that deal instant damage just kill them. How can I optimize those types of pulls?

[soft shale]

use the 4 garrotes then fok until full cp move a little back use ct

then move to the other side of the pack while foking

and use ct again

that way you can get at least the max possible ct on targets available

[south belfry]

Wont they mostly be dead before you are able to use 4 garrotes

[oak sky]

Depends on key level

[soft shale]

nah if the key is high enough they survive for like 15 or so secs

or more

[teal bluff]

Just CT them all got it, thanks!

[soft shale]

remember that if they survive enough for the garrotes to fall off you will flatline on energy

so if you see it going past 15 secs begin doing ruptures and garrotes again

chances are most of them are dead anyway

[grizzled trail]

I hate this covenant system bs man

Got no idea what to do… hate my life

[south belfry]

You can pretty much pick anything and be fine (not night fae)

[grizzled trail]

I don’t want to be fine I want to be optimal. Hence why I hate the system

[teal bluff]

Yeah that's another thing I wanted to ask, at the start of a pull is it ok to hit some low cp ruptures to get my energy rolling and then hit the big boy ruptures after? Also does CT benefit from seal fate?

[brazen rampart]

seal fate is the extra cp from crits passive. did you mean the energy regen from bleeds thing? (don't remember what it's called)

[static glacier]

Venomous wounds?

[brazen rampart]

that's the one

CT doesn't work with that, only garrote, rupture and internal bleeding if you pick that

[teal bluff]

Yeah I got them mixed up my bad

[static glacier]

Normally low cp ruptures are used to snipe energy from dying mobs iirc

[tulip nacelle]

you just want to use full cp rups

[static glacier]

Since longer ruptures would overcap you and are a waste

[tulip nacelle]

you 4x gar anyway so you're near saturation

[static glacier]

^

If we’re talking something with long lived multitarget (1st boss ToP) I just apply full length ruptures

[teal bloom]

Should you really flagellation->rupture before vendetta? Doesn't flagellation deal a lot of damage 🤔

[soft shale]

it deals damage when you spend cp

does not matter which finisher it is

[balmy condor]

Just one of those micro things the sim doesn’t really do that well

Shouldn’t matter too much

But the vendetta condition is to wait for rupture

And the flag condition is to do high cp

So it just ends up like that

You can vend/flag same gcd and then rupture

That’s fine

[static glacier]

@balmy condor what range of cds are we getting on flag / obidience in sims? Lust / non lust?

[teal bloom]

Ah ok thanks 🤔 trying to farm venthyr renown now

[balmy condor]

Wdym

[soft shale]

if you mean cdr

[static glacier]

Ye

[balmy condor]

About 20 seconds

20-25

[static glacier]

Interesting that it’s such a gain simdps wise considering the desync

[balmy condor]

Flag hits like a truck

And it gives a ton of stacks

Really it’s stronger than vendetta tbh

[soft shale]

yea haste does more than flat%dmg then you also get damage % in there too its a lets gooo

[rotund oak]

and venth leggo is the lets goo^2

wasnt the kyrian hype,ild prolly go venth

[soft shale]

kyrian was never hype for assa

[rotund oak]

btw,im going kyrian to prove everyone wrong,owls are fine and archon is a babe lul

kyrian for outlaw ofc

[south belfry]

You mean the one that got 1 shot by priest that wants to reroll paladin?

[rotund oak]

im just considering the possibilities of doing assa/kyrian in some raid fights

but ye,no way kyrian assa comes close to obedience

[teal bloom]

If the enemy which has dauntless duelist mark dies, do you get mark another target? Or only after you leave combat?

[soft shale]

you mark another

[slow marsh]

Buy into venthyr obedience hype or wait for nerfs?

[south belfry]

Venthyr will most likely still be best on st

[slow marsh]

I mean yeah but how much is the question

[south belfry]

Check the pins

Doubt Doomblade is getting changes

[teal bloom]

Okay ty. One more question about flagellation. The enemy that you used flagellation on gets damaged and you gain stacks even if you rupture/envenom another target, right?

[south belfry]

Yeah

Unless they changed that lately

[balmy condor]

Correct

Flag debuff does damage when you spend any cp at all

Flag a prio target and CT, works fine

[slow marsh]

Whisp the Sims are including the nadjia thrill seeker 2.0 right?

[balmy condor]

Yup

They also are using the most up to date APL’s we know of

Including my obedience fixes for both sin and sub, sbs optimizations for outlaw, and fleshcraft usage for all 3 specs for pustules

[slow marsh]

Is there a way to measure the value of thrill seeker in, say a case where you inevitably have it proc during a mechanic and how much you lose for it

[jaunty ruin]

Can someone recommend a fleshcraft reminder weakaura?

[balmy condor]

Not easily, no

[slow marsh]

I am so ready to get back to vampie boi flag gang but thrill seeker feels bad man

[balmy condor]

Play theotar then

Party favors is really strong

[umbral rapids]

ur really strong

[balmy condor]

I’m built like a fucking twig bro

You see me on stream

[soft shale]

dont worry you can lift with your back

[balmy condor]

I do all the time at work

[royal lantern]

always wait

hypetrain is never good

the hypetrain will never stop where you want

[slow marsh]

I missed sims for theotar ST =[

[balmy condor]

It’s close enough

[umbral rapids]

same tbh

[slow marsh]

I was on sin hype train when it started. I like the hype train

[royal lantern]

100%whispr is skinnyfat

like most people here

[balmy condor]

I eat 2 meals a day and they’re both just hi chew

[slow marsh]

Close enough as in still better than bonersmith by 200dps or close enough as in viable

[viscid spear]

I'ma just make sure I can snag Obedience asap while I get the hang of Flag

[balmy condor]

Close enough as in like 50 dps to nadjia

[teal bloom]

[slow marsh]

Well looks like I am ditching the bonerbois after all

[south belfry]

Venthyr transmog increases your dps by atleast 100

[royal lantern]

venthyr tmog sucks wdym

[slow marsh]

I've been back and forth venthyr Necro like 3 times already

[royal lantern]

allright

ALL covenant tmogs suck

but still

[viscid spear]

Thankfully I have a DK in Necro. Took me so long to finally get one in there, need my jelly cat

[slow marsh]

Venthyr portal tmog is cool

[viscid spear]

If you get it, lol

[rotund oak]

u can check the stream and ask for a forgiveness kindly

[slow marsh]

Wish the shoulder wasn't a giant gargoyle that's scaled weirdly but meh

[rotund oak]

if anything else u suck to project crap to ppl you dont know,just saying

[daring wadi]

where do i find the latest sims?

[slow marsh]

Pins

[viscid spear]

You don't like twin Goliaths sitting on your shoulder? Perhaps if it was Demona?

[balmy condor]

The link in the pins is usually going to be the most up to date

[slow marsh]

Not when I'm a skinny void elf no I dont

[daring wadi]

ooh venth pretty close to necro on dungeonslice

[slow marsh]

I feel like atm venthyr is looking like it'll be the reverse of what it was to Necro this patch

[balmy condor]

@limber lion shift change pl0x

[limber lion]

[viscid spear]

Vampires > Zombies
Tru fax

[slow marsh]

Go to sleep now

[daring wadi]

necro pretty hard to play perfectly in M+ as well

those damn jumping adds

[viscid spear]

In ToP? Is your ranged standing at max range or something?

[slow marsh]

Necro isn't hard to play imo just takes a minute to get used to

[limber lion]

Necro isn't honestly too bad.

The opening rotation is always the same and if you have a good nameplate setup, it's easy to see which mobs are missing sbs.

[willow eagle]

Obedience for sin looking big it seems

[slow marsh]

Cev can you look at my log from kill earlier and tell me what I could've done better?

[viscid spear]

Hit Flag and go brrr

[slow marsh]

If not nbd

[limber lion]

Sure thing

[slow marsh]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gwLkFXWVRJZtnDqf#fight=23&type=damage-done&source=4

[daring wadi]

it's not hard to play sure, but hard to perfect

[slow marsh]

I had to go full p3 build since we wiped a few times at 1% or else I would've gone DB with EP Vigor but not really worried about that as much as just mistakes in the moment I can be more aware of going into next tier

[daring wadi]

sniping low health mobs in a cleave scenario with tons of aoe dmg going out to reset the cd can be tricky

[south belfry]

Damn Draven

[limber lion]

Because you went with a full p3 build, you should have seen a lot more success in p3. 5.5k with Zoldyck and BS/DS/CT is a bit odd.

[daring wadi]

and im mainly talking from an outlaw pov there

i'd guess necro for assa is easier due to slower playstyle

[slow marsh]

I agree. I had a hard time really sticking on boss with everything going on

[limber lion]

Well the major problem is P3. A lot of your gcd's are just very spaced out and you take small breaks here and there due to movement or mechanics or whatever. Pretty much the only thing you can do there is just increase your uptime and actually stick to the boss. It looks fine otherwise. Just hit the boss from the back and never leave and you should see more success in p3.

You need to be safe in p3 and not die to mechanics, but it's important to do dps as well to meet the damage checks. There's really no need to not stay glued on to the boss at all times, unless if you get the Fatal Finesse soak on you or during the bad overlap. All other massacres etc. should be fine because you just follow the tank who himself doesn't want to get hit by massacres either.

The reason your parse is so low is a combination of lacking in P2 and P3 damage.

I played the EP/Vig build with DB and I did more than 1k damage than you in P3 and my gear isn't exactly massively better.

But my damage in P2 is a lot better, but EP/Vig with DB is definitely one of the reasons.

Here's your damage breakdown of P2

Here's mine

[slow marsh]

Yeah I'm not super worried about parse tbh it was a prog kill. I was kind of ignoring my overall dps for the sake of staying on boss as much as I could in p2 to make sure we got as close to 37% as possible. I know that could've been more optimized with add damage probs

Yikes yeah my CT is booty compared to yours

And yeah melee in general.

[brazen rampart]

are you rupturing cabalists?

[slow marsh]

I see what you mean about movement for sure though

[viscid spear]

So CT is the preferred pick over PB with Doomblade?

[slow marsh]

No this is only sire

Though cev is a CT for ST investor I think

[brazen rampart]

it's the pick for sire because of cleave and p3 damage if you run zoldyck

[limber lion]

Even then you should be sticking to the boss even more. You let your bleeds drop a few times. Especially on Remornia

[viscid spear]

I could never run CT for Sire, my guild has too much AoE for me to get as much value from it

[limber lion]

They share hp so you should have garrotes/ruptures on both at all times.

[limber lion]

This is mythic Sire in particular.

[brazen rampart]

i find it hard to not drop bleeds on remornia because of how much she jumps around and leaves for massacre

[limber lion]

You just need to be actively aware of her leaving

And reapplying before she does

[viscid spear]

What's the significance? My guild is pretty poo-poo with Mythic lately

[slow marsh]

Yeah I for sure was trying to be mindful of that. Refreshing on remoria before massacre and such.

[brazen rampart]

do the bleeds still do damage during massacre?

[earnest remnant]

yes

[brazen rampart]

[earnest remnant]

you can make it easier for yourself and put a countdown on massacre so uknow when its about to happen

[limber lion]

It's a completely different fight on mythic.

[viscid spear]

I should try to pug more then.

[south belfry]

Ceverion gonna stay necro?

[slow marsh]

I think the biggest thing is just sticking to boss more and not playing as safe (within reason). Thanks for looking through it though I appreciate it

@limber lion

[viscid spear]

We always get AotC (which takes longer than it should, really) and then farm it until people get the gear they want and then everyone just sits around twiddling their thumbs until the next raid.

[limber lion]

Definitely!

[thorny lion]

So the patch is dead for u guys After 4-5 weeks

[viscid spear]

Rarely do we even peek into Mythic, usually because we barely have the coordination to hammer out mechanics for Heroic

[viscid spear]

More or less, some just hop into pugs to progress on Mythic or work on that season's KSM

[slow marsh]

I just came back to wow in general in January and had to relearn rogue (last played in wrath), pugged aotc, grinded that valor gear and constantly fought for a chance to get brought for prog...finally brought in for sire halfway through and barely got CE on the last pull of the tier. Pretty happy with my prog so far I'd say

Couldn't have done it without this discord tho

[frosty bridge]

Not bad! Grats my dude

[slow marsh]

Ty!

Going for #1 rogue on server next tier for sure

[spring root]

is lashing scars also increase finisher flagellation damage or just initial one?

[limber lion]

All

[spring root]

thanks

[limber lion]

Glad to hear it, keep it up!

[viscid spear]

That's why I joined, want to improve for this patch.

[slow marsh]

It's honestly the best way to get better. Some real good info tossed around here

[viscid spear]

Went Team Edward because of the Discord, don't fail me now

[slow marsh]

Yeah 9.1 seems like venthyr is the play despite my early prediction. But imo have to see if obedience makes it through first

[frosty cedar]

[silent fossil]

if ur necro just do 1st swap quest so can stay or swap easier when needed

[strange python]

if you're necro atm, just do your whole venthyr swap, bar fills etc, but don't do the final hand in

if it turns out that you wana switch, hand in and bam

we gucci baby

[slow marsh]

Yeee that's what I'm doing and probs most people

[strange python]

either way really, it won't be a HUGE shift in either direction, my opinion on the cov stuff still hasn't changed
in the end it won't be the thing that makes/breaks you
peeps who have 70% uptime in melee are still more worried about their cov choice than their gameplay because the covs are all anyone ever talks about
and in the end it's a fairly meh gain overall

weirder still was it was harder to convince pallies to roll venthyr than it was to convince a rogue to switch cov for 30 single target dps on a sim

us rogues are a fucking weird breed

[slow marsh]

I mean true

[floral vale]

Is it worth to SBS in the MA window if it overlaps with gemstones or do we only ever want to mutilate / envenom during MA?

[limber lion]

Only Muti/Env

[floral vale]

Ty 🙂

[forest delta]

ok so, which leggo are we recrafting ?

[limber lion]

[forest delta]

doesn't say anything

just that obiwhatever is good

[brisk orchid]

Sylvanas dagger proc still disabled it seems on PTR?

[cobalt pelican]

checkthebrain

[sturdy merlin]

You’re crafting Obedience on cloak and recrafting DoomB on cloak too @forest delta , zoldyck stays on legs

[digital zodiac]

Doom blade still better than obedience ?

[thorny pond]

Pins mate

[forest delta]

and if I don't want to play venthyr still craft obedience ?

[digital zodiac]

Oh so obedience is BIS, so why recraft doomblade

[strange python]

U can only use obedience if ur venthyr

[digital zodiac]

Ohhhh

[vestal wren]

obediene is covenant specific

[forest delta]

ooooh

[sturdy merlin]

No since it's a covenant legendary 😛

[forest delta]

I won't change vethyr now, should not be a high difference from doom necro to that, only for min-maxers

[vestal wren]

the 4 new legendary powers:

[frank jetty]

Deathspike

[vestal wren]

deathspike is sadly quite ded

they doubled down on it

nerfing the stacks and remove resets for sbs

[forest delta]

seems unfair

to do that

[frank jetty]

But I stay Necro I guess - Its fine when I play outlaw for m+ and Assa for raid

[vestal wren]

2nd of those changes seemed over the top

[frank jetty]

Dont see venthyr outlaw a thing in m+

but idk

[vestal wren]

the first one was okay-ish and would potentially allow it to have a niche use

[placid adder]

if obi benifits outlaw maybe

[vestal wren]

venthyr is atm just overtuned

it is possible that it gets tuned down

[forest delta]

maybe they fix it down in the first week

[vestal wren]

i hope

they just need to remove the versa buff from the 2nd buff and its fine

[viscid spear]

What's the best method of grinding renown? Dungeons? Is there a difference in the difficulty? Like are they more likely to drop in Mythics than in Normal for example?

[digital zodiac]

Wait sorry for not keeping up over the last day - but seems like quite a lot has changed then?
Necro was basically best pick yesterday ?

[south oak]

Ive played only necro the whole of 9.0, so i was excited to try out venthyr (pretty kewl cosmetics ngl) Hope it atleast stays playable

[vestal wren]

wdym

[sturdy merlin]

Venth is very fine

Even if Obedience gets nerfed venthyr will remain a solid pick no worries 👍🏻

[south oak]

Ait 👍🏻

[digital zodiac]

So as things stand right now, venth obedience is BIS for ST and AoE

[vestal wren]

depends on how much they nerf it

[sturdy merlin]

Not as much as deathspike please blizz

[south oak]

Rogue cant have nice things

[hasty crater]

So the safe strat is staying necro to play outlaw in mythic plus and sin in raid ?

[south oak]

Ye

[halcyon blade]

its ok we getting our raid utility any day now

[thorny pond]

Patch is any day now. Utility raid ability is not

[digital zodiac]

And if I am already venth, just stick venth and go with doomblade until I can craft obedience?
(What week will we get renown 48)?

[thorny pond]

Yes

[sturdy merlin]

First week of Mythic raid @digital zodiac

[thorny pond]

If you want to save cinders that is what most I think are doing

[viscid spear]

Halp

[hasty crater]

Lfr

Id good

[thorny pond]

Do stuff. Heroic dungeons

[hasty crater]

Is*

[thorny pond]

Lfr raid

[digital zodiac]

Gunna be aids recrsfting doomblade on cloak for a week 😂

[thorny pond]

You don’t have to

[drifting cloud]

why would you recraft it for a week

[thorny pond]

You aren’t getting a dom socket week 1

[vestal wren]

i would hold on to recraft legendary powers

[digital zodiac]

Oh yeah lol you’re right

[vestal wren]

you can buy regents already but i wouldn't just straight up craft sth

its possible that bugfixes or other stuff impacts balance

and you will be fine next week with your old legendary 😉

[thorny pond]

Just play sub for a week then sin will feel very new with obi

[viscid spear]

So just work on the campaign while I sit in LFR queue and when I'm done with those wait in Heroic DF?

[drifting cloud]

just read the last post in wow-general

[thorny pond]

Heroic dungeons etc

[forest delta]

they will buff deathspike too, theres no reason to nerf it that bad so players wouldn't use it ever

[thorny pond]

Have you seen tiny toxic blade?

[limber lion]

Or toxic onslaught

[royal lantern]

what if they buff it into a HUGE toxic blade?

ofc its bad when its tiny

[thorny pond]

If it gave 5cp 120 energy reset vendetta and did 800% damage

Then maybe

[royal lantern]

maybe only 3cp 80energy and 400%dmg

mediumsized toxic blade

[thorny pond]

Then I’m not using it

[slim jolt]

In case I'm being dumb, the newest pinned message, Sub and Sin lose to Outlaw because of downtime? or am I reading it wrong?

[thorny pond]

Yes

[shrewd night]

[teal bloom]

[royal lantern]

that was made cus people always bring up BUT DOWNTIMES

[thorny pond]

You should play outlaw

[royal lantern]

when downtimes fuck everyone

[slim jolt]

ok, ty

[royal lantern]

like, downtimes are SLIGHTLY less bad for sin, but its not the reason why sin is good sometimes, or sub is bad sometimes

[frigid kestrel]

The But Downtimes thing seems to always pop up and then die out for a while. Like cicadas

[shrewd night]

Copium heads are the ones to say "if you are assigned to do seeds on xymox you better be sin for the downtime"

[royal lantern]

like i said: you lose somewhat less dmg as sin, but its not as if losing downtimes will not fuck you over hard lel

[teal bloom]

Or survival hunter

[royal lantern]

its the ussual situation of people not understanding that X is strong cus it does high dmg, and Y is weak cus it does low dmg

so they make up 200000different reasons

[rancid pier]

Is that pin referring to single target or just in general?

[frosty cedar]

oi, with obedience how it reduces CD per combo point spent while active, is that just the first 12s or afterwards aswell?

[dim temple]

No ide.. we have some time to get it.. u need reown 48 as i was told to get it .. lol so 4 weeks or something 😄

[frosty cedar]

ya but its on PTR right?

[dim temple]

I just think God's of data minding just ran the math , I dunno how it works in action

[ancient path]

its only the first 12 sec

[dim temple]

It's it only me who can't wait for reset? the days feels so long

[violet hemlock]

eh not much happening the 29th

[marble hemlock]

People just seem to forget that in a world where most of our dmg is melee, mutilate, envenom and poisonprocs, losing downtime is just as bad for assassination. It's not like rupture, DP ticks and garrote deal insane DPS while we're not hitting a target, and having to re-ramp when we get back essentially costs us additional Muti/Envenom casts. With Doomblade and how high the percentage of damage that requires melee-range actually is, saying Assa doesn't lose as much dps when you cant hit the boss is just wrong.

Yes, we do slightly more damage while away from bosses as long as our DoTs still tick. But we also have to refresh them when we get back, which offsets the slightly higher damage we have during the downtime with slightly lower DPS as we get back. Both Outlaw and Sub immediately go back to dealing their full damage the moment they can get back into melee.

Assa dealing high damage during downtimes due to DoTs is as much of a myth as that it requires restealths to do good damage in Mythic+, when the opposite is true.

[scarlet sequoia]

fr fr

[echo geyser]

[marble hemlock]

raz and ram

[gusty mirage]

Oh God are we back to the downtime thing again?

[tepid ridge]

sub must do the same except garote cast which is kinda irrelevant.. 🙄

[final star]

@marble hemlock 🎊

Spitting hot fire

[marble hemlock]

Nothing hot about it

I've been fighting the fight against those myths for a while

[final star]

Of course, but to some people it is

[marble hemlock]

But I've decided to officially declare war against "assa needs restealths in m+ for triple garrote" for 9.1, and I promise that by the start of 9.2 that myth will have been properly busted.

[gusty mirage]

Fighting the good fight

[plain thistle]

but you need stealth to do triple garrote, subterfuge doesn't proc if you dont stealth/vanish

[grim jay]

Going to bed after a downtime discussion and waking up to the next one.

[marble hemlock]

Looks like theres no downtime for that one

RH encounter design is very assa friendly it seems

[simple wadi]

Could you expand here - I’ve always assumed it was optimal to get that triple garrote. But never heard the counter point.

[slender berry]

every time you talk about downtime shadowpriest sims gain 1k dps

[simple wadi]

Genuinely asking to learn

[plain thistle]

YOU get more damage doing re stealths, doesn't mean the dungeon will be done faster

and doesnt mean you NEED triple garrote to do damage

[simple wadi]

Oh sure

[plain thistle]

triple garrote is not impactful enough for the tank to play around

[simple wadi]

Appreciate the explanation of the debate

[marble hemlock]

What Johnwei said, pretty much. Theres also the factor of having to ramp-up every pull vs having a fully set up energy sustain from the previous pull as you go into the next one

As you spend 5-10 GCDs each pull setting up your ideal conditions on AoE before you can switch to using the most DPS efficient GCDs instead of the most resource-efficient ones. Chainpulling solves that issue, as you do not have to ramp up at all between pulls and can just maintain high energy levels while dishing out the highest damage per GCD you can do

[simple wadi]

That makes sense too

[marble hemlock]

That extra damage on those garrotes barely makes a difference in the grand scheme of things, the main advantage of subterfuge+vigor on AoE is that you do not starve energy in your opener as you can cast 3 resource generating abilties in quick succession (that also benefit the tank thanks to iron wire)

But in terms of raw DPE (damage per execution) even subterfuge garrotes cannot compete with fok or CT on larger AoE pulls. Its why some of the best Assa dungeons are something like Halls, where you consistently chainpull but Assa actually likes chainpulling. No downtimes means you can just spam fok/ct and maintain a few ruptures for energy and priodmg instead of having to ramp up every pull. Its kinda intuitive once you think about how people correctly state that the biggest downside of Assa is that if pulls are short, its damage is bad.

[echo geyser]

[simple wadi]

Really appreciate the explanation - makes total sense

[marble hemlock]

People seem to not think about it much further than that, but yeah... You cant say "you need triple garrote and restealths" but then also state "assa does bad damage if pulls are short" cause only one of those can be true.

[limber lion]

I've heard people saying "I cannot play Assa this week because it's spiteful and I can't get restealths, so I'll just play Outlaw this week" and then went on to sim to show them that Outlaw in fact loses more in power by having to run Celerity instead of MA/KS compared to us not getting 3 garrotes with Subterfuge. People are still stuck up in 8.3 era where most of our damage was frontloaded in those first 3 garrotes with Shrouded Suffocation, but it's just not irrelevant nowadays. Never stealthing again in a dungeon was like a 20 dps difference on Dungeon Slice for sin. Very giga.

[marble hemlock]

Yeah for sure. And even then you gotta keep in mind that we didn't actually run 3SS (at least I didnt) for that very reason. Why force yourself into a situation where you require restealths when it wasnt required. And now that SS is gone, so is that "limitation".

[limber lion]

Exactly.

[frosty bridge]

Outlaw also loses the CTO restealth.

[limber lion]

We moved to the crit-based FoK/Echo build for that reason.

[marble hemlock]

Its also why you dont really need to use vanish as a DPS CD on AoE anymore, as the subterfuge garrotes dont have a meaningful impact on your DPS, so you can hold it for utility

[limber lion]

No reason to handicap your tank and your entire group because you need restealths to do 20 more dps in a pack.

[echo geyser]

20dps loss to never restealth sounds not bad at all

[frosty bridge]

Aka loses the tripled chance for a roll buff when opening

[echo geyser]

does that mean theres a better talent choice in that row?

[simple wadi]

They are all stealth

[limber lion]

They all require stealth

[marble hemlock]

I pmuch solely use vanish as a utility CD these days or to apply 3-target prio damage.

[limber lion]

It's a stealth row.

Yeah, or in some cases as a way to interrupt several mobs at once

[marble hemlock]

So for those reasons I strongly believe subterfuge to still be the best talent in that row

[echo geyser]

3x silence

[echo cargo]

Buff NS xd

[marble hemlock]

If you get restealths, Subterfuge is the one that shortens the ramp the most

So its still important to have for those cases too

[pastel apex]

nice

[marble hemlock]

and barkskin for your tank 🙂

[echo geyser]

[odd hazel]

People just see sims and go “anything but that is wrong “

I’m just not sure why people think sin is like unplayable in M+

[frank jetty]

ppl go from the the meta (so the highest keys availible) and there outlaw > Assa - I know most ppl wont play these keys but thats wat meta is about

[sonic schooner]

peoples are like "i ve only 15% haste sin is unplayable"

[gusty breach]

i have like 13%, and sometimes i have 2much energy

with vigor

under flag

[somber bison]

Mother russia gives 20% passive haste though