assassination

[soft shale]

yea you can solo normal dungeons now

[balmy condor]

@strange python chill homie

[dapper solar]

customfight

[soft shale]

for ez quest

[balmy condor]

Your spec is fine

[gusty mirage]

Red name DK?

[short chasm]

I wonder if wearing 2 daggers even on Outlaw is worth it

[pale fossil]

No

[warm parcel]

ofc the red spec is fine

[balmy condor]

No

[short chasm]

well thats a thought off my mind

[pale fossil]

You can’t Dispatch lol right?

[short chasm]

oh yeah true

[whole mason]

you can only use pistol

[short chasm]

So just 1 I guess

[balmy condor]

Imagine equipping 2 daggers for giga stonks

[pale fossil]

[balmy condor]

And then not being able to spend cp

[woven ruin]

So did Niya get hammered somewhere that I missed? Glad I left NF.

[pale fossil]

You can BtE

[whole mason]

you can BtE

[short chasm]

Doesn't the dagger programming just make it so that you can't run more than 1 rogue?

if it doesn't stack

[placid pagoda]

Okay thanks

[balmy condor]

Yea, it’s bugged to hell

[short chasm]

Seems weird to me

We'll have to see on release

[balmy condor]

Bugs often are

[short chasm]

If it even is a bug or intended

[zenith cairn]

so just hope that the other rogue in your raid just never finds the dagger

[short chasm]

yeah

[tiny dagger]

DB on cloak correct? should I buy the item now or wait to have in crafted til Tuesday?

[short chasm]

But I am the only rogue anyway so thats fine :P

[gusty mirage]

That no other wielder of a dagger can get the dagger’s effects on any mob ever if it’s tagged by another? That’d be incredibly weird if intended

[short chasm]

@gusty mirage It is.

[balmy condor]

Imagine limit rogue hits the boss

No one else

Ever

[gusty mirage]

Maybe that’s our true raid utility

[balmy condor]

Rest of the tier

[whole mason]

Considering the description, it should be one dagger that applies the debuff and all rogues can benefit from it.

[gusty mirage]

1 rogue to rule them all

[short chasm]

Bring back smoke screen

[stray ivy]

well i dont find outlaw fun at all

[short chasm]

[stray ivy]

so Sin it is

[short chasm]

Would you guys not agree that the raid is mostly ST?

[balmy condor]

What part gives you that idea

[short chasm]

Except for the 1 or 2 fights where adds introduced

[faint harness]

Dont know for sure

[short chasm]

The Nine and KT are the only fights that jump to mind

if I think about multi target

[mint narwhal]

took them months to fix the bug on latent poison from survival hunter

[dapper solar]

most of the fights have multi target

[mint narwhal]

surv hunter was the same problem

[dapper solar]

some sort of ad

[strange python]

outlaw tier perhaps

[whole mason]

The comma maybe?

[dapper solar]

duh @strange python

[strange python]

dababy lets go

[mint narwhal]

in bfa , only 1 surv hunter was getting the damage buff from latent poison . the other hunter couldnt get it .

so dont expect blizz to fix that any time soon

[short chasm]

There aren't any Sun King, Council and SLG fights right?

[faint harness]

Would you say that all adds are created equally

[dapper solar]

no the ones with less health are worse

[short chasm]

where you have to pad like insane

[faint harness]

So its only about health

When it comes to add relevancy

[dapper solar]

no

but if they have low health they die to quick for it to be super meaningful

i.e. sire p1 ads thats just pad

[strange python]

hmm

copium perhaps

[faint harness]

Ok i am talking mythic prog now

Not ”how can i win meter”

[dapper solar]

idk what ur tryna say or what im arguing for

[faint harness]

If the goal is to kill a fight as easy as possible. When does adds become relevant

[whole mason]

@balmy condor should deeper increase dagger shadow damage?

[gusty mirage]

It affects all shadow damage, including lightless force so yeah probably

[faint harness]

It does, should it? Blizz devs made it so

[balmy condor]

That’s what it does, yeah

It doesn’t care for anything

If it’s shadow

It’s buffed

[strange python]

unless its a pet

[whole mason]

oh my, I'm already thinking a proper nerf to sub.

[balmy condor]

Well we don’t even know how strong the dagger is

[faint harness]

How can you nerf a spec nobody takes seriously

[balmy condor]

Deeper is a drop in the water to that

But also sub is literally just fine

It’s 200 ahead of sin

Big whoop

[gusty mirage]

That didn’t stop them in 8.0 or 9.0

[strange python]

well back then it had a niche

of funnel

that doesnt exist anymore

[faint harness]

9.0 it wasnt nerfed

[gusty mirage]

I miss that niche so much

[faint harness]

Hasnt been touched since sl released

[gusty mirage]

True the akaari’s bug was fixed before launch

[faint harness]

Yea, way before launch

Same with deeper

[placid pagoda]

Crit haste the stats to go for 9.1?

[limber lion]

[whole mason]

Sim stats please.

[gusty mirage]

Just top gear your stuff

[balmy condor]

It’s insane to me that people are so fast to shit on sub

For simming a LITTLE higher

[gusty mirage]

That’ll provide better insight than anyone here can give you

[whole mason]

Considering sub's style, if not simmed higher, it probably is not going to be any kind of good.

[limber lion]

What does that mean?

[strange python]

👇🏼 ⏲️

[limber lion]

Why do you say that?

[short chasm]

Sub is so conditional though

[gusty mirage]

How so

[limber lion]

Because of downtime or?

[whole mason]

because sub requires better environment

[strange python]

say it with me gentlemen

👇🏼 ⏲️

[short chasm]

Be it backstab, downtime

[limber lion]

What is a better environment?

[strange python]

patchwerk 5 min sim

[warm parcel]

Can yall keep the clocks in OT please

[whole mason]

well , comapred to sins, you may be just fine if you need to dodge or move or do something else. However, for sub, it is not going to be the same.

[short chasm]

comparing the sin sims to sub sims, the sin sim is way easier to perform

[limber lion]

Okay but

[gusty mirage]

Well that’s because sin is much more forgiving in general. Not that sub is more conditional

[limber lion]

I think you're tunneling a little too hard into the Sin vs Sub category

I'd like to remind you

that there are several other melee classes

that do 0 damage when they cannot hit the boss

fury, arms warr

havoc dh

ww monk

[whole mason]

I'm talking about sim results. and that's it.

[limber lion]

Literally every melee spec, except for Sin/Feral

[short chasm]

I thought we were talking about rogues here

[whole mason]

you maybe do sim results as sin, but almost never as sub in a way that you want it to be.

[limber lion]

Just shitting on sub because it suffers from downtime and needs a better environment is not fair for sub because that's most melee specs

Having greater downtime damage is a more unique thing

[hasty crater]

Where is outlaw in this discussion btw ? worse than sub/sin ?

[limber lion]

Outlaw is not looking too great.

[short chasm]

the point is that I would see sin needing a way better environment than all those other melee specs

[short chasm]

This is speaking of raid only right

[limber lion]

Yes

Still the best in m+ out of the three

[cobalt pelican]

guy is on vacation so there's nobody to stand up for outlaw and pretend it's a relevant raiding spec

[whole mason]

I'm not talking about downtime damage. It is how unexpected or required move in a battle makes extra downtime for sub. I'm totally fine with sub.

[short chasm]

It never was if there aren't any adds

[strange python]

pretending like adds don't require outlaw

[short chasm]

That's why I went Necro to accomodate both

[strange python]

sad

[limber lion]

What exactly is this "environment" that you speak of then?

if it's not referring to forced downtime

[short chasm]

@limber lion look at council fight

sub felt unplayable compared to sin

[limber lion]

wattttttt

Sub was considered the better spec for Council

for the longest time

[viscid spear]

I don't see me needing to cleave/aoe in our raid, we have plenty of other classes that can do it better.
But that's just my situation.

[whole mason]

after a forced downtime, other spec may just go back what is left, but for sub you need to re sync all your cds in a fashion so that you may get back what is left, meaning an extra downtime in this re-sync.

[prisma carbon]

sub was way better at swapping to attendants

[balmy condor]

sub was the best spec for council until like 9.0.5

[limber lion]

yeh

[balmy condor]

bruh the fucking anti-sub copium

is ridiculous

[warm parcel]

what sync does sub have

you have sod like assa has shiv

then you dance

it aint rocket science

and council is maybe the worst pro assa fight to argue about

atte literally stops assas regen

as bleeds wont regen during shield

your swap to atte is horrible

your cds time horribly

all around bad

[simple wadi]

But you can pad with CT

[warm parcel]

cool

thats irrelevant

[balmy condor]

the definition of pad is literally "irrelevant damage"

[simple wadi]

Sorry that was sarcasm

[short chasm]

I haven't played sub during council so what I might've said was a mute point

[balmy condor]

wait

[limber lion]

[short chasm]

But just imagining that fight as sub just sounds horrible

[warm parcel]

Sub may feel god awful on council due to boss jumping occasionally

[balmy condor]

you said sub plays like shit on council

[limber lion]

bruh

[warm parcel]

It may feel like its not a nice fight

[balmy condor]

without even knowing what you're talking about

[warm parcel]

But the fight is just unfun for anyone

[limber lion]

I gotta say boys

[warm parcel]

Maybe boomies may enjoy it

[limber lion]

Venthyr Sin feels awful on Sylvanas

[balmy condor]

we're literally just making up arguments to shit on sub now

[limber lion]

that's why I'm staying Necro

[balmy condor]

what the fuck

[strange python]

Anti - Sub Activism

[burnt star]

Rekilling that fight wasnt even fun

[warm parcel]

Hell no

[shy dust]

Sub felt amazing on council

[gusty mirage]

Yep. People are either purposefully forgetting how terrible that fight was to play for everyone or just never did it

[warm parcel]

Ill skip council any day of the week

[shy dust]

You never had to backstab

[whole mason]

for instance, your cd of sod is a normal flow as time goes, but cd of dance is influenced by your finishers. a forced downtime makes less finishers leading to different cd of dance as you expected, which is not happening in sims.

[shy dust]

For the most part

Actually felt like a great fight

[strange python]

very cool

[warm parcel]

I get theres less dances

But youll never not have a dance for sod

[short chasm]

[vital haven]

at some point the fight just became pure funnel

as sub

[warm parcel]

Spec doesnt suddenly break

[viscid spear]

Got the 200ilvl Lashing Scars from a calling cache 😮

[warm parcel]

You just wont double dance as often maybe

[viscid spear]

Should I drop some Stygia for the conduit upgrade?

[whole mason]

however a double dance with sod is totally different with single dance with sod.

[warm parcel]

Just like assa wont slam extra envenoms

okay

[gusty mirage]

No we’re super close to higher conduit drops

[warm parcel]

Ill do a ted talk

[balmy condor]

do I need to make a pin or something telling people sin and sub both suck with downtime, cause they're melee specs

[warm parcel]

On why assa 👇 ⏲️ masterrace is overblown

[gusty mirage]

Apparently

[burnt star]

Plz do

[warm parcel]

Just look at your melee breakdown

End of ted talk

[strange python]

falsehoods and slander

[gusty mirage]

When’s the next one?

[viscid spear]

Still better than the 145 they give you off the bat, lol

[strange python]

weak simping for sub lol wow

[warm parcel]

when 25% of your dps is pure melee

downtime does hurt

youre not some magical fairy

[whole mason]

all what im saying is that sub's sim if higher is totally acceptable.

[gusty mirage]

Comes with the territory when the anti-sub copium consumption is at dangerous levels

[warm parcel]

Im 100% fine with anticopium in OT

[viscid spear]

Downtime? Just use poisons!

[warm parcel]

but can we not make up random excuses in spec channels

[shy dust]

This whole sub downtime thing

Has become so overblown

[grim jay]

No please let them argue about sin still dealing 20% of their damage on downtime so its superior.
Atleast the cdr talk is not the everyday-argument:grin:

[warm parcel]

Ye

[shy dust]

It does lose things yes

[warm parcel]

Its gone too far at this point

[shy dust]

But so does assa

It’s not the end of the world for sub either

[limber lion]

the entire "sub bad" thing is just annoying at this point honestly

[warm parcel]

Besides sub has plenty things going for it assa doesnt

Sub can fuck KT phyl harder than assa

Sub can tornado painsmith balls

Whats assa gonna do

[strange python]

[warm parcel]

put up a rupture

[gusty mirage]

All 3 specs are relatively close for the first time in forever and we’re spending our time shitting on one of them

[warm parcel]

sub flags boss and tornados balls into boss

[gusty mirage]

[short chasm]

I'm pretty sure most of the anti-sub opinions are based upon that most rogues would pick the other 2 specs over it

[warm parcel]

it also just happens to have 60s cd

like the mechanic

assas 2 min

and st

and doesnt do shit to the balls

if runeboi needs you to nuke tank add

subs there

assa will only rot it

[simple wadi]

So your saying you play exsanguinate on painsmith

[gusty mirage]

[zenith cairn]

i mean assa has better 2-3 target cleave

[simple wadi]

Sarcasm again

[warm parcel]

I dont quite get how exsang aids funnel but alright

[short chasm]

wait who does actually love playing sub here

[limber lion]

this is too fried

i'm going to bed

[simple wadi]

I’m just memeing

[cobalt pelican]

discord downtime

[gusty mirage]

I love sub it’s a very rewarding play style when done properly

[warm parcel]

I get it but Im also asking not to do it

[grim jay]

I do like it much

[short chasm]

the discussions are so spread right now I don't even know what most people are talking about

[warm parcel]

Cause some people will take your shit and have it be their gospel

[rose narwhal]

Think some sin rogues have to realise that their bleeds and dot damage only accounts for about 20% is of their damage in ST. No rogue spec is not shit in downtime

[viscid spear]

I like Sub. I prefer Sin by far and loathe Out, but Sub is still pretty cool to me.

[strange python]

3 people

[pure osprey]

sub is reasonably fun

[balmy condor]

Sub and Sin both lose based on downtime. Both specs are fine. Sub simming higher is okay. Please keep your memes and shitposts out of spec channels. Excessive trolling and discussion derailing will lead to warns/mutes, as per our rules. If you would like to shitpost, at least put it into off topic. Keep it civil and calm please. Thank you and I hope you enjoy playing whatever spec you find fun in this coming patch

[warm parcel]

[balmy condor]

there

and they shall live

in those 2 channels

[gusty mirage]

Thanks dad

[short chasm]

That post seems so petty though

[faint harness]

👋

[short chasm]

was it necessary

[balmy condor]

until y'all can keep it together

[strange python]

stay in your containment channel

[warm parcel]

also yall mad being spec players

real rogues play rogue

and play whats needed on fight

and not just camp one spec

[faint harness]

Facts

[short chasm]

Fuck me, now I want try to play sub next tier

[faint harness]

Dont exaggerate

[shy dust]

Be honest that included never outlaw

[warm parcel]

whats outlaw?

[shy dust]

[balmy condor]

go for it! it's fun

[gusty mirage]

Fury warrior with pistols

[zenith cairn]

without covenants yes.. but blizz 🙂

[sonic schooner]

is outlaw even rogue at this point?

[warm parcel]

covenant wont stop you from pressing "n"

and then tabbing to another spec

its you thats stopping you

[short chasm]

@balmy condor I played it during early prog, not feeling it at all during then. Switched to Outlaw and then to Sin after 9.0.5.

[warm parcel]

and given how far into xpac we are now

[balmy condor]

we have 3 covenants that are super close

[sonic schooner]

"n" is /sit for me

[warm parcel]

you should have 50k ash by now

[balmy condor]

"super" i guess

but like

[warm parcel]

so legos wont stop you either

[short chasm]

Something feels really off to me with sub, maybe its lack of experience.

[balmy condor]

you can play venth outlaw or kyrian sin or necro sub

it's all fine

[sonic schooner]

kyrian sin

[gusty mirage]

its about to rain soul ash too next week

[viscid spear]

But preferences!

[obsidian ruin]

covenant legendary recipes require renown 48 right?

[gusty mirage]

yes

[shy dust]

Something will generally feel off when you’re inexperienced with a spec

[warm parcel]

Youll automatically earn your recipe doing the campaign

[obsidian ruin]

so obedience is avail in hc week?

[dry copper]

sub basically shitwrecks torg, but it's torg, so whatever gets it done fastest

[short chasm]

is it?

[gusty mirage]

mythic week

3 renown per week

[shy dust]

Recipe is through campaign yes

[short chasm]

what rank can we make it at if it releases

the obedience one

[viscid spear]

6 I assume

[obsidian ruin]

but if nothings gated you get 46 in week 1 no?

[viscid spear]

Pretty Blizz closed that gate again

[obsidian ruin]

cuz 3 campaign chapters should be avail instantly, since you need 2 to even get to korthia right?

[shy dust]

You can’t get 46 in week 1

Should be 3 per week

Unless they changed things

Was 3+ per week in 9.0 till campaign completion

[gusty mirage]

^

[cobalt pelican]

is there a new weekly to replace maw souls picking up

or is there just gonna be a gang of idiots

walking around the maw

[viscid spear]

I must stab, must have Renown

Can't sleep, the Renown will eat mee

[obsidian ruin]

chapter 1 is battle for ardenweald +1
chapter 2 is going to korthia and disabling eye of the jailer maw zone effect +1
weekly anima +1
weekly souls +1

44 unlocks 3rd chapter

all chapters gave renown on ptr

[viscid spear]

They might remove the souls weekly? So that way it's still 3?

At least week 1

[obsidian ruin]

mhmm

ye maybe

if they do that ye

[dense narwhal]

fact or fiction: sin discord is friendlier than outlaw discord

[obsidian ruin]

actually souls weekly is replaced with a weekly in korthia so we do get 2 from weeklies

[viscid spear]

Yee

[short chasm]

Next week

[grim jay]

Muted since 5 years. Never regretti.

[viscid spear]

Maybe it's just the 4 in week 1, and after that it's the 2 weeklies and a campaign quest each week?

[obsidian ruin]

thats what i hope/expect

[shy dust]

Is it the 3rd chapter that gives the recipe

Or a renown level

[gusty mirage]

its based on renown level on ptr right now

[obsidian ruin]

i was wondering if obedience is avail in hc week

[viscid spear]

Mythic week I think we determined

[obsidian ruin]

if we get to chapter 3 in week 1 we'd have it for the raid

which would be kinda nice to have them release with raid opening

[shy dust]

If it’s based on renown then probably mythic week

[shy dust]

48?

[faint harness]

48 renown reward

[gusty mirage]

yes sir

[shy dust]

Yeah probably M week then

Even if yah get 4 renown week 1

[viscid spear]

It was what, 48 Renown for the recipe? If they stick with 4 in week 1 and 3 after, we'd only be at 47 the week before Mythic

Or my math is wrong, I was neveer good at it

[faint harness]

Yea well you will get renown the week mythic releases

[stoic needle]

So wait

[shy dust]

You’ll have the recipe for M raid week

Just not heroic

[obsidian ruin]

so there is a good chance we reach 45 in week 1 with 3 chapters, then 48 week 2 with raid opening

cuz thats how it is on ptr

[shy dust]

Oh if 44 unlocks 3rd chapter

[zenith cairn]

do we know if there will be renown catch up for the new renown in the first weeks? (covenant swapping for mythic week)

[shy dust]

Then we should get it week 2

[stoic needle]

Obedience vers lasting 24 seconds instead of 12 was enough to make it 2% better than doomblade?

[shy dust]

Yes

[balmy condor]

yes

[shy dust]

And some optimizations Whispyr did

[viscid spear]

Yeah but that was PTR, they could easily shift things arounf on live

[shy dust]

They could yeah

[stoic needle]

Wasn't it always implemented as 24 seconds in simc though?

[balmy condor]

no

[shy dust]

I’d be surprised if we got 5 renown week 1

[balmy condor]

koji lied

[obsidian ruin]

true, but there is a good chance imo

[stoic needle]

[gusty mirage]

Koji's a liar confirmed

[viscid spear]

I admire your optimism

[stoic needle]

Koji the false prophet

[balmy condor]

but also the whole sync math wasn't optimized for obedience

so a quick variable change added a full additional cast

which was like 1.5%

[faint harness]

He has probably already reported obedience to the cops anyway

[stoic needle]

Lol wow

[cloud reef]

What changed to make venthyr the play over necro?

[thorny pond]

Hey you're back!

[odd hazel]

Osh

Shoo

[shy dust]

Read what Whispyr just posted

[odd hazel]

Go play mastery

[obsidian ruin]

i mean it's release candidate and you gotta do 2 to even unlock korthia

[balmy condor]

literally talking about it right now

[balmy condor]

chill

[stoic needle]

I'm still not playing retail anymore but I enjoy keeping up with Ian hazzikostas' wild ride in a voyeuristic sense

[odd hazel]

[viscid spear]

Either way I'll be up super late Monday grinding these Renown levels before the patch.

[thorny pond]

Do you let him put cigarettes out on you too?

[cloud reef]

Ah sorry didnt see it 😄

[shy dust]

Having obedience for heroic week would be nice

Only 3 days till we find out

[stoic needle]

No, that's you, playing retail and liking it

[faint harness]

2

[shy dust]

NA > EU

[thorny pond]

I ain't liking it but it's better than the alternative

[stoic needle]

YESS DADDI ION PLEASE DONT NERF USSSSS

[shy dust]

Limit > EU

[viscid spear]

Implying Ion doesn't vape like the manchild he is.

[faint harness]

Limit = EU

[stoic needle]

That's debatable but I won't clutter the sin channel with that discussion

[smoky beacon]

limit = beta tester

[green harbor]

I like limit cause they have a bunch of PoE homies

[shy dust]

Limit is NA

[thorny pond]

Fair. But we miss you here, you're a real one

[faint harness]

Half the guild is european

Owned

[hollow river]

they have a lot of EU players lol

[stoic needle]

The death of deathspike was just too far

[shy dust]

What’s more American than taking credit from foreigners?

Checkmate.

[stoic needle]

My dreams shattered

[hollow river]

lmfao

[faint harness]

Got me there

[stoic needle]

Like tears in the rain

[shy dust]

I’m very curious

[stoic needle]

Plus my guild just decided not to get ce and I cba searching for another

[shy dust]

To see how necro stacks up vs obedience venthyr in 2t

[viscid spear]

The USA is like 99% non-native though, unless we field an Olympic team of solely Native Americans then we're all just a rainbow of skin

[short chasm]

@shy dust This is what I'm most curious about rn

[shy dust]

Necro always had the cleave card

[stoic needle]

Well sin 2t is just using the 2nd target for resources while you giga fuck the first target

[faint harness]

You will find out on…. Uhm, no boss?

[hollow river]

my guild is pushing if you wanna come show me up

[stoic needle]

The damage from the extra bleeds is just bonus

So I'd imagine venthyr 2t is gonna fuck as well

[shy dust]

Optimizing for p1 of the nine

[faint harness]

Yea alright

[shy dust]

The only thing would be lowering the cooldown on flag more

Outside of the vendetta windows

[faint harness]

With rng fok?

Have my doubts

[shy dust]

Well the 2nd flag

I assume is limited by energy

Have much more energy to go around on 2t

[faint harness]

True

[shy dust]

And with IQD

To ensure more crits in your flag window

[balmy condor]

dead trinket tho

[faint harness]

Iqd was nerfed

[stoic needle]

What have they done to my boy?

[balmy condor]

just gives like 20% less stats

[shy dust]

The brightest stars burn the fastest

[faint harness]

Less stats

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

it loses pretty comfortably to a shadowgrasp now

[stoic needle]

Fuck

[shy dust]

[faint harness]

Why did they have to make shadowgrasp a totem

[hollow river]

wow

loses to totem in ST?

[stoic needle]

This is what I'm talking about man

My heart can't take this

[shy dust]

Shadow grass slams on st

[hollow river]

fucking stupid

[shy dust]

It’s hasted and buffed by Vers ofc

[faint harness]

Isnt shadow grasp shared aoe anyway

[shy dust]

It’s a pure st trinket

[faint harness]

Split

[shy dust]

Tooltip is worded weird

[balmy condor]

scales with pvp gear?

[shy dust]

Scaled with FLAGELLATION

[hollow river]

scales with agility, got it

[balmy condor]

actually true

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

does scale with flag

man speaks the truth

[faint harness]

Flag makes all dmg procs go boom

[stoic needle]

Totem during full stack obedience flag

[hollow river]

orly

[shy dust]

If necro loses on 2t

It’s OVER

necro stonks will be crashing

[faint harness]

A max stacked flag is literally 30% more trinket dmg

[hollow river]

im joking ok

[faint harness]

With obedience

[hollow river]

don't hurt me

[unborn root]

Any trinket sims available?

[shy dust]

They’re still not all implemented

[balmy condor]

no point, half aren't implemented

[unborn root]

Unforch ty

[stoic needle]

It double dips on venthyr because haste from flag and vers from obedience

[faint harness]

The fire dmg trinket from new dungeon is looking spicy

[cobalt pelican]

it'd take quite a bit for venthyr to win on 2t even with obedience

at least in longer sims

[shy dust]

Bonespike has that pad

[cobalt pelican]

if it's like st mostly with an additional target occasionally i imagine venthyr still wins though

[shy dust]

With that dot running for so long

[stoic needle]

Do you still not get sbs resets on kt adds

[faint harness]

Only tested twice

So who knows

[stoic needle]

I just love how we went from 3-5k sims at the beginning of the tier to literally 10k sims in the first patch

[shy dust]

I mean

We went from 0 systems leveling and then mythic 0 gear

[drifting cloud]

Pretty normal

[shy dust]

To fully M raid gear with all sockets and max level conduits

And st sims topped out at 7.7k

[hollow river]

feels nice to get stronk in an mmo

[drifting cloud]

In ep we went fron like 25 to 50 aswell

[faint harness]

We literally doubled our dps in bod to ep

[drifting cloud]

Theb over 100 with corr

[stoic needle]

It's not really a bad thing, just funny

I'm not used to literally doubling your damage every patch

[soft shale]

oh wait until more borrowed power

next patch we getting double covs or tiersets (kek)

[hollow river]

9.3 20k DPS in 280 ilvl gear plz

double covs?

thought it was hoping to be 2 leggos

cov+spec leggo

[soft shale]

2 leggos is too broken for many classes

[versed mica]

Double covs would be epic af

[hollow river]

idk man

[green harbor]

utility+dps lego would be cool

[hollow river]

they said they were looking into doing it

[shy dust]

2 legos would require

[hollow river]

they'd have to rune some stuff sure

[shy dust]

A lot of a balancing

On blizzards end

[balmy condor]

7k to 10-11k isn't really doubling

[stoic needle]

What if they just don't balance it

[winter glade]

Can someone elaborate on the pinned comment "Sub and Sin both lose based on downtime. " Lose to Outlaw?

[balmy condor]

there's been much much worse patches

[versed mica]

Gotta round down whispyr smh

[balmy condor]

lose damage

[winter glade]

Ah okay

[stoic needle]

True, but when you think about it from the dps we were doing in m0 gear it's about double

[balmy condor]

people thought it was funny to shit on sub for the last couple hours

so I'm putting my foot down

[winter glade]

All three specs are fun; not sure if I am the black sheep for saying that

[balmy condor]

but why compare the start of an expansion to a full mythic set from a .1 patch

[shy dust]

You are

[stoic needle]

Outlaw, fun?

[versed mica]

I've never liked sub

[severe sparrow]

i want to like sub but for some reason ive always been absolute trash at playing it

[green harbor]

i envy you, i never get to say this no matter the class

[stoic needle]

It's just the first frame of reference I had with the spec's numbers

[balmy condor]

aight

[balmy condor]

I'm sure you can learn it

it's not that bad once you get the basics down

[severe sparrow]

in theory it sounds so simple, yeah

in practice, i might actually be garbage

[ancient kraken]

it always seems so complicated, but once you get the hang of it you just think to your self "how did i find it so complicated"^^

[cobalt pelican]

only thing that takes a lil getting used to as sub is shadow techniques tbh

[violet hemlock]

for me sub was the easiest as a completly new player

[balmy condor]

yeah it's different for everyone

[green harbor]

the hardest part for me was pressing cooldowns properly, just took a few restarts on a dummy to get over it

[balmy condor]

I could not do sin when I started playing

[stoic needle]

Honestly the biggest thing for me that it took a second to stick was not refreshing SnD and rupture during dance

The gameplay loop is actually kinda similar to sin

Refresh your maintenance, hit your CDs, build spend

[green harbor]

i actually gave up on sin this expansion when i tried it on my alliance rogue, gave it another chance on horde and it's not bad at all

[weak bane]

First time I tried playing sin, I dragged rupture onto my bar twice instead of envenom

[severe sparrow]

i literally just swapped back to assa from outlaw a week ago so im trying to relearn this last tme i played it was legion...

maybe in a bit ill try sub again

[rich wren]

Those mobs were bleeding real nicely I bet

[severe sparrow]

oh speaking of, how longish does a mob have to be up for to make putting rupture on it worth the cp vs mut? like... 4-5s?

[weak bane]

yes they were

[high phoenix]

Much longer. IIRC it’s around 15sec.

But you could figure it out from tooltip. Take 5pt rupture dmg. Divide by 5 pt enven. Multiply by rupture duration. That’s the break even point.

[severe sparrow]

that's what i tried to do

[stoic needle]

It's not quite that simple because of the energy regen and return when things die

The apl has the conditions

It varies depending on how many bleeds you have up

[severe shuttle]

when is correct flag usage on sin?

[shy dust]

Before a finisher

[severe shuttle]

do we use 4 seconds before vendetta with new leggo for the full 12 seconds of vers during vendetta ?

or nah

[shy dust]

The Vers lasts 24 seconds

And that’s to still be determined optimal flag usage with obedience for assa

[severe shuttle]

i see, ty for reply

[echo geyser]

it sounds quite hard to build a lot of stacks outside of vendetta or lust right?

[shy dust]

Probably yeah

Especially for st

You won’t reach high stacks most likely

[severe shuttle]

can hope for 25cp's spent with new leggo for nice line-ups tho right

for 1min5sec cd

[stoic needle]

Gearing for crit will help you get more stacks

[shy dust]

I doubt assa will get

A 1 min 5 sec flag

That’s what sub gets

[echo geyser]

u get 12sec to build stacks?

[shy dust]

Yes

[arctic walrus]

are people just now realizing sub's issue with any sort of downtime

[stoic needle]

Maybe with those giga crit jewelry from sod

[spare flame]

So all thats changed in the last 24 hours is Venthyr ST with Obediance is far higher then expected?

[shy dust]

No the pins are there because people were meming sub downtime issues too hard

[echo geyser]

with lust sure but outside seems hard maybe

[shy dust]

Yeah doesn’t seem feasible

[echo geyser]

flag just in general sounds weird for assa

but maybe u just dont try to line them up who knows

[severe shuttle]

i meant inside lust/pi sorry

[echo geyser]

oh man imagine getting pi i wanna try that

[shy dust]

I can check a log

On shriekwing

2nd flag usage

[stoic needle]

You pretty much need multiple targets bled to get 30 stacks

[humble ginkgo]

ram.....

[stoic needle]

Or godlike crit rng

[humble ginkgo]

why do you have subtlety roles ONLY

[shy dust]

I got to 23 stacks

[humble ginkgo]

lost a good one..

[shy dust]

The lashes from the flag conduit don’t count for cooldown reduction

[sand sigil]

i tried to convince my guild man :/

i really did

no pi for me lmao

[humble ginkgo]

I saw that sim

pi on sub +400

[sand sigil]

no it was pi on assa

[shy dust]

PIng sub sounds moronic

[humble ginkgo]

oh

myb

[sand sigil]

436 dps increase on assa

[shy dust]

PI on assa also sounds dumb

[sand sigil]

and i thought it was pog

[shy dust]

Because UDK exists

[sand sigil]

but it was not pog

[cobalt pelican]

400 is still kinda baby numbers for pi

[shy dust]

And there are specs that gain more

[humble ginkgo]

jpc i still dont know r u playing sin or sub on prog?

if ur simming assa shit

[shy dust]

Yeah 400 is just good

[sand sigil]

we have demo lock that gains 836 from pi

even paladin gains 700+

[shy dust]

some specs just gain way more

[severe shuttle]

Just bench the Spriests @sand sigil then the healy priest has no choice

[shy dust]

0 reason to PI an assa rogue

[sand sigil]

lololol

[severe shuttle]

for fun times

[civic trellis]

Well, if you are outdpsing them

[severe shuttle]

let yellow class feel the juice

[echo geyser]

the only way ur getting PI is if all the other relevant dps are dead

[civic trellis]

shouldnt you get pi? 😄

[echo geyser]

[soft shale]

there is not reason for pi but a real one for warriors on sub at least

[cobalt pelican]

tiny brain logic

[shy dust]

You generally discount player skill

[cobalt pelican]

me do top dammie me deserv pi

[shy dust]

When comparing things like that

[civic trellis]

Ah

[shy dust]

If you want to see whose the best PI target you should assume they’re playing the spec well

[soft shale]

yea ping rogue is always kind of troll when warlocks etc exist

[hollow river]

usually just PI on the best dps player

[civic trellis]

lul

omegalul actuallyt

[hollow river]

unless everyone in your raid is doing optimal dps

[humble ginkgo]

thats what my priest did

I got a pi on a hungering kill

because I was top

[hollow river]

PI on #1 sin rogue in group

[humble ginkgo]

[hollow river]

or PI on #8 UDK...

[severe shuttle]

got 1 on sludge prog and it felt like a sex wee

[hollow river]

yeah pi on pillars is sick

[severe shuttle]

never again tho sadge

[hollow river]

thank goodness

[humble ginkgo]

im glad CN is over

progging it was so aids

so many walls

next tier fights look easier tbh

[hollow river]

[severe shuttle]

Factual

[hollow river]

isn't that how it usually is

[severe shuttle]

and True

[hollow river]

first and last raid a bit more difficult then middle raid

[sand sigil]

laughs in 55mil hp guardian

[hollow river]

i have no idea but i've heard that

[soft shale]

idk man i can tell you some shit about CoS

and be here all day

[hollow river]

CoS?

[humble ginkgo]

Im just glad

theres no council fight

[soft shale]

Crucible of storms

[severe shuttle]

extends the laugh in 80mil 20min Sylvanas

[humble ginkgo]

I fucking hate council

and xymox

[cobalt pelican]

xymox cool fight

[humble ginkgo]

no

[soft shale]

xymox is called if im doing good damage someone is inting seeds into raid

[humble ginkgo]

I loved progging sludge and sire

councilw as the most aids prog

[soft shale]

council was kind of fun as sub playing tornado

[humble ginkgo]

I was sick of seeing orange

[cobalt pelican]

council was like a 1 night boss wtf

[soft shale]

unless you had a brewmaster

[humble ginkgo]

maybe for ur guild

I mean any good guild you guys kill all bosses in like 2 months

[winged basin]

fuck I wish it was a 1 night boss

[humble ginkgo]

we spent 5 weeks on council

[winged basin]

^^^^^^^^^^

[balmy condor]

4 if you're not drowning in energy already from aoe, about 12ish otherwise

[humble ginkgo]

the night of my council kill

I think I was 3 monsters in

[severe sparrow]

YESSS my math was right

[cobalt pelican]

the fuck

[humble ginkgo]

literally had a heart attack when the boss died

I didnt drink any water aswell

I had to chug a bunch after

[stiff tapir]

Hey whispyr what does sub and sin both lose ? Sorry just read the post and wanted to ask

Like lose to outlaw?

[balmy condor]

lose damage

it's just one of those 4-5 hour pins to get everyone to shut up

it'll be gone by tonight

wouldn't worry about it

[stiff tapir]

Ah got it

Yeah I feel it. Thanks

[balmy condor]

np

[gloomy knoll]

hows sin use obedience

do we hold it for anything or just same as normal

slam on cd

[gusty mirage]

glancing at the sequence table in the sims, seems to be on CD

[timid talon]

which slot is obedience going to be crafted in

[shy dust]

Cloak

[timid talon]

figured

[gloomy knoll]

pog ty

[hollow river]

i think whispyr was optimizing whether or not we try to sync flag and vendetta

idr the outcome

think i missed it

depends a lot on fight length, if you'd lose a vendetta cast before end of fight etc

[gloomy knoll]

so same as normal

[hollow river]

well obedience gives you CDR

on flag

but looking at the sequence table, as oxi stated seems to be on CD

[balmy condor]

it's the same

on a 5 minute it would mean syncing 3rd flag to 2nd vend

flag would be pull, 1:10, 2:20

and you'd hold that 2 min vend for it

obviously still depends on kill time

so just sync the last one, and on cooldown otherwise

would be fine

[gloomy knoll]

@shy dust did they already patch venth pot cheese?

[balmy condor]

yes

maybe 3 weeks ago

[shy dust]

Why am I the one @ for this

[gloomy knoll]

on live?

[shy dust]

I didn’t start the pot abuse

[balmy condor]

on live

[gloomy knoll]

i just like you

lol

deal with it

i just wasted some tomes then

[shy dust]

Yeah it was fixed a few weeks ago

[gloomy knoll]

ty whispyr

[balmy condor]

[gloomy knoll]

was wondering why phantom fire didn't show up on my log lol

[gusty mirage]

smh unethical gamer

[soft shale]

try deadly fixation next

people remember bfa pots that gave crit

[jagged yoke]

anyone transferring to venthyr from necro?

[balmy condor]

many people

people who want to play sub

people who want to play obedience on sin

[stable bramble]

I transferred venthyr to necro and then back again.

[balmy condor]

people who aren't interested in outlaw

[lime axle]

Sub still looking best in ST and AoE? Or you guys not buying it?

[balmy condor]

looks at sims
yeah seems to be the best

[jagged yoke]

yeh i transferred to necro yesterday...might go ven

[balmy condor]

if that ends up being the best in practice is anyone's guess

[lime axle]

Ya, hence why I asked if anyone was buying it

[bleak sky]

venthyr

[balmy condor]

no one here has played the patch tho

for all we know, we'll log in on tuesday and blizzard just remove the vers from obedience entirely

and then what

[lime axle]

Yup that’s fair but we have the PTR

[balmy condor]

he doesn't know

PTR would be fantastic, you're right

if everything blizzard added in the last month or 2

wasn't a completely bugged nightmare

[jagged yoke]

yeh i think i hate outlaw so might just go ven cause seems to be best for both them

[balmy condor]

sylvanas dagger just became testable a couple days ago

and they were completely unusable

[lime axle]

Ya i tried one in OH w Outlaw

[balmy condor]

so in theory, yes, ptr

in practice, ptr is just blizzard's way of dumping bugs onto the community

[lime axle]

Well - guess ill just keep my eye on the discord - I’m necro now and i cant even swap until I get 44 renown for crafting so ill have some time to figure it out

[balmy condor]

yeah honestly for the better to wait

[jagged yoke]

what spec do u main whispyr?

[civic trellis]

simlaw

[balmy condor]

I play sin mostly

but I like sub

I played sub from wod until mid-late legion honestly

and then BFA obviously rip sub

played sub at the start of shadowlands

[jagged yoke]

yeh same pretty much...really iked sub at the end of legion

liked*

[plush garnet]

Necro nerf?

[balmy condor]

what?

[plush garnet]

srry, did necro get nerfed?

[balmy condor]

no?

[plush garnet]

Oh okay

Someone in my guild was saying it got nerfed

Was just checking :)

[balmy condor]

I mean deathspike got nerfed

but that was like a month ago

[plush garnet]

Oh okay nothing recent then

[balmy condor]

no

[plush garnet]

yeah I think they were just catching the old news

[mortal patrol]

there was a pvp nerf

Ooz's Frictionless Coating's absorb value reduced to 7.5% maximum health in PvP Combat.

[balmy condor]

oh

then I guess it did get nerfed

whatever that ooz thing is

sounds very unlucky

[plush garnet]

Eh I'm still pretty sure it was the deathspike nerf they were just catching wind of

But rip for the oozers

[balmy condor]

pvp

[plush garnet]

^

[soft shale]

pvp assa necro got a little buff in damage at least now if you fleshcraft you always get 120 mastery

so that is something at least

[gusty mirage]

thems fightin words

[thorny pond]

literally

[north basin]

When can we get sylv daggers sims in 259 gear?

[thorny pond]

lol

[gusty mirage]

probably next week

[frail forge]

Wait so many I'm dum dum but why would we think that obedience Vers lasting 24 seconds is intended when haste only lasts 12 after Flag ends?

Per the tooltip

[gusty mirage]

because it gives you haste when you activate

[frail forge]

So the "max" vers still only lasts for 12 seconds after Flag ends?

Plus the differing stacks during Flag as you spend CB's?

[gusty mirage]

yeah it'll stack up the vers the same as it does the haste

[frail forge]

Ok, ty just trying to still understand wth happened in Sims to make venthyr suddenly top ST by ~400dps

[gusty mirage]

The obedience legendary was fixed. It was assumed that the sims reflected the 24s of the haste buff when the ptr version didn't. It was hotfixed on PTR and just recently fixed in the sims

so before it was accounting for 12s of vers

plus there were some optimizations for the cooldown reduction that @balmy condor put in

[frail forge]

Awesome ty

For explaining

[gusty mirage]

iirc the optimizations ended up giving us another flag cast

np

[thorny pond]

We love our flag casts don't we boys

[frail forge]

I'm doing the Micheal Scott "snip-snap-snip-snap" between necro and venthyr right now

[thorny pond]

Play what you enjoy

[atomic hemlock]

I don't see how obedience doesn't get nerfed tbh

[thorny pond]

This isn't some crazy fire mage NF non-sense

[frail forge]

I enjoying the thought of min-maxing as much as possible in the game more than the different abilities but I get what you're saying

[gloomy knoll]

because

other classes have

22% leggos

[gusty mirage]

500 dps is kinda crazy

[gloomy knoll]

and we happy for a measly 10%

ret paladin is literally like

right on our tail for st

and has insane burst aoe

we really not that broken lol

[nimble tartan]

obedience baby!!!!!!!!!!

i been a bad bad boy

[gloomy knoll]

[nimble tartan]

dam i literallt never looked at 9.1 soulbind tree until rn

[thorny pond]

DB to Obi is what like 3%?

[nimble tartan]

that healthstone healthpot trait is nice on nadjia

[gloomy knoll]

yep

[thorny pond]

And yet people still won't use em

[gloomy knoll]

i'm hyped for the avoidance on

theo

[nimble tartan]

lemme see

[gloomy knoll]

so good for prog

[nimble tartan]

ooo well fed avoidance

[steep obsidian]

how much is it?

[nimble tartan]

60 avoidance

and speed

[steep obsidian]

that is a lot

[nimble tartan]

nadjia last trait is hella nice

60 is what like 4% aoe dam reduction

or a lil more

p nice

they gotta give my boy draven some love

[thorny pond]

Let tanks have em

[gusty mirage]

kinda sucks that draven's useless for us

[thorny pond]

Nad is my waifu

[gusty mirage]

if conduit energy wasn't a thing, or refreshed faster than 1 every 24hrs I'd be fine with draven being dogshit for us

[nimble tartan]

im not gonna lie i dont really fuck wit the parasol on theo...

[thorny pond]

SEEMS BIG

[gusty mirage]

[thorny pond]

If you're a self healing tank

DHs just spamming soul cleave this is perfect for their braindead rot brains

[dawn ivy]

it probably wont end up being alot

[nimble tartan]

dam sub and sin with the nice pins im learning a lot i go to the law too many words no pictures :/

[gusty mirage]

"done to you" makes it seem like it won't affect self healing

[thorny pond]

Souls are an interesting mechanic

So no idea

[gusty mirage]

yeah idk either

[civic trellis]

On 2t cleave, if target is gonna die in <7 secs, is worth applying a rupture? i would think is not worth but the passive venomous wounds make me doubt

[thorny pond]

and I mained one lol

omr, have you ever simmed law

good luck doing theoretical work with it

[balmy condor]

why so many ping

what I do

[sonic spire]

Is there any way for me to take our ST sims with all the beta stuff and run them for 2 target cleave? I tried to find a “run sim again” but there’s no button or I’m big dumb

[gusty mirage]

nuffin muffin @balmy condor I was just explaining how your optimizations made obedience yuge

[thorny pond]

https://tenor.com/view/trump-donald-trump-dance-thinking-idk-gif-5753267

That you?

[gusty mirage]

[thorny pond]

That's how I picture you explaining how obi is yuge now

[gusty mirage]

You'd have to copy the input and run it as an advanced sim and then change up the encounter stuff

[balmy condor]

[gusty mirage]

[thorny pond]

and I feel simply keeping the ST APL is a bad bet for 2t

[nimble tartan]

i have i have a raidbots account

[balmy condor]

wait what

ST APL 2 t?

why am I missing everything

[sonic spire]

Ya I’m really bad at sims lol

[gusty mirage]

because you consume mostly bread, cheese, and hichews and sleep like 4 hours in 3 days

[balmy condor]

why would you want to sim 2 target with 1 target APL

that just sounds like 1 target

[sonic spire]

Basically I was wondering how obi stacks vs necro in 2/3 target

[balmy condor]

then sim 2/3 target

[sonic spire]

Ya, I have no idea how to ptr sim though 😂

[dawn ivy]

TOUGH

[sonic spire]

: D #newb

I usually just listen to other people, hit things and hope for the best

[gusty mirage]

hey that's better than most

everyone else comes in here and goes "where sims?"

[thorny pond]

If we donate like $500 will you do a stream whispyr teaching your ways

[sonic spire]

Ya… maybe someday I’ll learn how apl works and get answers to all the random unimportant questions I come up with as well as the ones that might matter lmao

[balmy condor]

do you have profiles for obedience and necro that you're comparing?

[spice spire]

He does this for free

Or one humble sub

[balmy condor]

yeah I just do that for free

[sonic spire]

Um… no… is it wrong to use profiles you’ve already set up for ST sims? Pretty much curious Nadjia dauntless obi vs necro gemstone doom blade

[spice spire]

Any primers in chat

[balmy condor]

well if you have profiles set up that's the hard part out of the way

[empty hinge]

Who’s winning venthyr or necro

[balmy condor]

venth atm

jpc owes me channel points

[empty hinge]

As in like who’s playing what

[dawn ivy]

lmao

[balmy condor]

sub sin playing venth

outlaw playing necro/kyrian

[empty hinge]

[balmy condor]

name doesn't check out

[sonic spire]

Basically trying to figure out what to raid as - if venth is 400dps over necro ST and necro is only like 100-150 over venth in cleave i think it’s way worth losing the dam on cleave fights, since most of the time boss dam is prio anyway - but if you loose like 600 going venth in cleave, not worth

[balmy condor]

sure, have you ever ran an advanced sim

[sonic spire]

Ahehe : ) that’s a no

[spice spire]

Ahh yes inting raid by running Necro of course

[empty hinge]

Wym

[sonic spire]

Not Inting with either, just optimizing… and I really like how venth opener feels 🙈 but I’m necro rn

[spice spire]

I should really tag when I’m being sarcastic or trolly, it’s definitely not int for either. I’ve done and am fine with both

[gusty mirage]

mentally ill rogues as per usual, smh

[balmy condor]

aight

[sonic spire]

Ya, I played two rogues - one of each - in CN both were fun but o boy venth SLG didn’t feel nearly as good :c

[balmy condor]

errbody pay attention I'm doing this once

class is in session

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

[nimble tartan]

tell em

[sonic spire]

I got ma notepad out

[balmy condor]

so

step 1 is getting a profile