assassination

[odd hazel]

10m fight? That’s a long fight

You’re extending variables that aren’t there usually

necro isnt better on ST, it shouldnt be no matter the case. it only wins once you put in another target

because they both use the same gear basically.

[stoic needle]

So you can pad on wracking pained things with doom mutilate on sire?

[limber lion]

Maybe.

But it's not as high of a damage amp than on Shades

[stoic needle]

[limber lion]

So it's definitely not worth whatsoever.

But technically you can

[stoic needle]

50% instead of 100%....

[short hamlet]

the truth

venthyr sin is just a waiting room for venthyr sub

[onyx blade]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pNPjDckwZnXDDBFA9gXnoF so 1.5% (was a wash before, but I've gotten some more haste since). 104 dps improvement

maybe with better stats / gear the delta increases

[odd hazel]

i see venth as better.

[onyx blade]

like i said. it's 104 dps now. used to be the same.

totaly not worth for me. but yup, to min max ST seems like a marginal win

most of it seems to be from Dauntless Dualist

yeah that would be pretty nice ST

[gloomy fern]

imagine socketing everything haste and not crit

[onyx blade]

that's bad?

tbh i don't like sin (pref outlaw). I just do what sims tell me for raiding

[fallen arch]

https://tenor.com/view/umm-confused-blinking-okay-white-guy-blinking-gif-7513882

[stoic needle]

Venthyr sin prefers crit

[onyx blade]

ahh

[frail fossil]

sim told me to play the spec i enjoyed most

[onyx blade]

i'll tweak that for sims and see how it changes

[odd hazel]

you can play outlaw just fine.

[frail fossil]

yeah like

if u dont like sin

play outlaw in raid

[odd hazel]

you can even play sub if you put enough effort into it

[stoic needle]

9.1 the rise of sub

[odd hazel]

i mean

[stoic needle]

Inshallah

[odd hazel]

his stat weight sims say haste is his highest stat so hes fine

[frail fossil]

[stoic needle]

Highly doubt any venthyr sin's stat weights have haste as highest

[onyx blade]

pretty sure sin will be top next tier, and it edges out outlaw for me, so I might as well get used to it

[odd hazel]

hes not venth.

[stoic needle]

Oh

[frail fossil]

and what if it's the best ?

if you dont enjoy it

[odd hazel]

^

[frail fossil]

play something else

[odd hazel]

if you arent racing for world first

play survival for all we care

[frail fossil]

and dont tell me "i want to top the meter", u can do that as outlaw

[stoic needle]

It's good to know how to play the spec but don't force yourself

[onyx blade]

meh i don't care as much as progressing w/ the guild

[odd hazel]

you can prog as outlaw

[onyx blade]

like i'm not slashing my wrists over it

[stoic needle]

U could prog as no spec

[frail fossil]

progged 10/10 bosses as outlaw

wait no i played sub on sun king cuz ranged could not manage their cds

[onyx blade]

but i don't care as much as you lol

i just play what fits in best

[odd hazel]

i mean

[frail fossil]

u do u

[odd hazel]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[frail fossil]

just saying to feel forced to play something u dont enjoy

[onyx blade]

i don't feel forced

[frail fossil]

but if u're fine with sin that's cool

[onyx blade]

just sayin, i'm not expert on sin gearing cause it's not really my thing. so figuring it out via sims

[odd hazel]

i mean. you seem fine

you're gearing fine

haste > crit is normal for necro

crit = haste for me as venth basically.

[onyx blade]

yeah i'm going to check venth w/ some crit tweaks to see how much more it buys me if anything

thanks for the advice!

[odd hazel]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8Fdc11M2MgTJByK8sgtP3X

Crit is a little higher then haste for me.

im basically capped at 218 ilvl though until i get KSM or my vault loves me

[spice spire]

That’s because you’re venthyr

[odd hazel]

ye

he was talking about checking out venth with some crit in sims

[onyx blade]

yeah it's running now

[spice spire]

Ahh

[onyx blade]

i will say sin is pretty nice when you have to pay attention to mechanics. not button spamming as much

[odd hazel]

its also nice in prog due to damage coming from bleeds

[onyx blade]

yeah with movement

[odd hazel]

i just got bored of outlaw tbh. i want to start going back and gearing it again.

[onyx blade]

and i don't get greedy w/ a last minute blade rush that puts me into a bad spot

k haste still outperforms crit as venth for my gear

by a good margin too

[stoic needle]

Link the sim?

[onyx blade]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/g3fy5omG22ZjuXPn2CcDz6

[gusty mirage]

don't use my people's tongue against me

[frail fossil]

[thin imp]

tell that to my guild, they think we cant progress pass sludgefist because we are 8 melees (might be harder but still, didnt even try it once, starting next sunday), or they think that you can't do 10/10 if you are not playing meta classess

they seems to prefer someone playing a meta class doing 6k dps over a good player doing 5k

[odd hazel]

Your guild is dumb then. You can literally get 10/10 mythic playing sub/survival

[thin imp]

I told them

[odd hazel]

your group is doing something wrong, its not the comp

[onyx blade]

dude, i feel ya. tempted to go frost 2 button spam just cause i know it'll be top and ranged

[thin imp]

they prefer a 20 parse balance in council with 7k dps over a good warrior with 90 parse and 5k dps

[frail fossil]

i mean balance druid dps on council is a joke

90% of it is pad

[thin imp]

I told them that if you can't kill a boss because we are lacking 4k dps then we are doing something else bad

but hey im just a raider what would I know

225 ilvl raid btw xD

[stoic needle]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x84mS9TBD8dLTdohN3wW1Y

[onyx blade]

so as soon as I go 2 target cleave, necro is back on top. So i could gain 100 dps on ST but pay for it slight on cleave fights

[stoic needle]

I don't think you actually simmed with all gems and enchants replaced with crit

[onyx blade]

the stat weights aren't as accurate

[stoic needle]

I don't see it as one of the options in the sim you posted

[onyx blade]

hmm maybe i screwed it up. will go again

btw is the wowhead / ice veins priority rotation still accurate?

for sin that is

[gusty mirage]

should be yeah

unless you're necro, then you open with SBS from stealth

[hollow river]

Wait were open with SBS??

[stoic needle]

Yes

[hollow river]

O.O

What’s the benefit?

[stoic needle]

It does damage and gets the dot up instantly

[slender trail]

anyone have a solid IQD WA? i heard rumor of one that tells you what will proc if used (not one that tells you what procced)

[onyx blade]

hmm i didn't know that

[hollow river]

So SBS, SnD, then what?

Mut, garrote, rup, mut, envenom?

[stoic needle]

Yeah the rest is the same

[hollow river]

Kk does it matter when we use SBS in place of muti? Later on

On pure st

[stoic needle]

After that you use during shiv if emeni, during gemstones if heirmir

[hollow river]

Kk so we hold our charges unless the 3rd charge refreshes?

I assume

[stoic needle]

Yeah

[hollow river]

Kk ty. Need to finish unlock heirmir

[stoic needle]

She's worth it

[onyx blade]

she's hot

[hollow river]

Yeah I simmed it the other day it’s like a 300 dps increase for me

[stoic needle]

over emeni or over marileth

That's a lot

[hollow river]

I didn’t realize how good we had it in this discord

[stoic needle]

It's like 100 dps between emeni and heirmir for me

[hollow river]

I’m using the first soulbind atm don’t have the other two

[limber lion]

Just finish the campaign

Doesn't take long.

[balmy condor]

First soulbind is asssss

[spice spire]

Ur ass

[limber lion]

@balmy condor

[hollow river]

Yeahhhhh I know

[balmy condor]

[hollow river]

I’m lazy

[balmy condor]

Hi

[hollow river]

Pins in this discord r 🔥

[balmy condor]

Thanks :)

[hollow river]

Every other discord I look at has no real pins with information

[spice spire]

Reading the pins

[hollow river]

Cba to play any other classes now

[gusty mirage]

@balmy condor

[balmy condor]

Without being told to!

It’s a great morning

Waking up to people reading pins

Birds are singing

[gusty mirage]

You have no idea how legendary this comment is

[hollow river]

Oh you’ve definitely told@me to

[gusty mirage]

[balmy condor]

[hollow river]

😅

[balmy condor]

Fuck

[gusty mirage]

well you're a god damn legend still

[balmy condor]

Never lucky

[spice spire]

It was so close to being so good

[stoic needle]

[hollow river]

Roflll

[spice spire]

Whispyr almost didn’t have existential depression for a day

[gusty mirage]

its okay raid tonight would've set that back in real quick

[stoic needle]

I've never asked a pinned question

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

And now here we are

[balmy condor]

[hollow river]

It was only once ok!!!!

[spice spire]

And we take those backstab it’s still a W

[stoic needle]

It's a fact because the first thing I did was read the pins when I joined

I have prior class discord experience

[spice spire]

Okay s*mp

[hollow river]

Lol

[alpine latch]

Those are rookie numbers, you gotta get those up.

Probably didn't even gouge

[hollow river]

Need some kinda rule check that doesn’t let people join without reading pins first, eh?

[balmy condor]

That would be ideal

[stoic needle]

I've advocated for that but I don't think it will happen

[hollow river]

Why not 0:

[gusty mirage]

that doesn't really solve issues though, most people figure out how to get in to ask their questions anyway

[stoic needle]

Have a simple question that's not really game related with the answer hidden in the middle-bottom of the pins

[balmy condor]

Cause no one listens to what osh thinks, he’s a mastery simp so it invalidates all opinions

[gusty mirage]

[stoic needle]

[hollow river]

I have 39% mastery rn

[alpine latch]

It's not always about "did you read the pins", a lot of it is just information retention.

[odd heath]

I have like 150 mastery

[stoic needle]

The question could be like "how many of the pins end with the letter D on their last word"

[spice spire]

Oh no, you’re going to enable him

[stoic needle]

https://tenor.com/view/culture-man-of-culture-cultured-gif-10903367

[odd hazel]

shouldnt listen to osh because he doesnt have 226 gloves

[spice spire]

Also true

[hollow river]

Idk I like haste better

[odd heath]

100 more mastery would net me 20dps increase on dgslice, so.. cba

[hollow river]

And critical strike

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

Holy shit backstab I’ve talked to you on like 4 occasions and you’re already more based than 95% of this channel

[gusty mirage]

hey!

[odd hazel]

[hollow river]

How?

[spice spire]

This channel is pretty cringe

[hollow river]

Is that good or bad

[balmy condor]

We got a lot of monkeys

[spice spire]

That’s good

Based = good

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

I do enjoy going full grape ape on the occasion

[hollow river]

I have a feeling being a crackhead is not good

[balmy condor]

Well

Drugs are no good

[hollow river]

@odd hazel I have 226 gloves does that make me good?

[gusty mirage]

crack is whack, smoke the mary jane though*

*if its legal in your country

[balmy condor]

But your opinions on stats is pretty good

So

[spice spire]

Whispyr aren’t you a musician?

[icy osprey]

as a sin, which poisons for pve and pvp?

[gusty mirage]

pvp - wound & crippling

pve - mind numbing & deadly

[limber lion]

Deadly and Numbing for raids.

[balmy condor]

Deadly numbing in pve wound crippling pvp

[spice spire]

PvE is deadly and numbing - pvp is wound and crippling

Oh

[limber lion]

Osh, wanna add one more?

[gusty mirage]

I won the race

[hollow river]

Can’t you use crippling in m+?

[balmy condor]

Asking

[spice spire]

@stoic needle say the line

[gusty mirage]

you can, but the auto attack slow on the mobs ends up being a little better

[limber lion]

Welp, a slowpoke.

[stoic needle]

Wat

[alpine latch]

I always run crippling in PF, because fuck those little runny bastards.

[hollow river]

What about on spiteful 0:

[spice spire]

Guess you do miss :/

[gusty mirage]

you just cry

[hollow river]

Lmfao

[stoic needle]

I don't appreciate this statism

[alpine latch]

Spiteful or PF are Crippling, every thing else is numbing

[hollow river]

No restealths? //wrists

[gusty mirage]

make sure to have a cup of water to replenish fluids after spiteful weeks

[stoic needle]

Mastery chads rise up 😤

[balmy condor]

That question would’ve made him cf man

Unlucky

[spice spire]

Mind numbing can also soothe enraged target

[gusty mirage]

dang

[limber lion]

I was talking about answering the question. We had 4 people answer the same question and you were typing at the same time

[gusty mirage]

missed opportunity

check his outlaw logs

[stoic needle]

I'm slow on the draw today

[hollow river]

Lmao

[bitter canyon]

Does anyone know if evasion of cloak or shadows can soak mythic Altimore’s sinseekers?

[alpine latch]

There's a few dungeons I still get fucking destroyed on because I'm a monkey. But it feels great hitting 5k overall as Sin

[limber lion]

Nope.

[bitter canyon]

So neither?

[limber lion]

A tiny bit more gear and you're pumpin

[spice spire]

Cloak drops the dot, you need to be bopped though

[limber lion]

Neither.

[bitter canyon]

Ooooof

Got it, thanks for the quick response!

[alpine latch]

I'm 211 now, but I'm still rocking a r2 Zoldyck's and a few 197 pieces, plus no m+ trinkets yet 😦

[spice spire]

Any time, good luck papi

[alpine latch]

I'm still rocking Dreadfire (220) and Hateful Chain (213). Not bad, but it could definitely be better. I haven't seen Phial drop yet

[hollow river]

I’m using those same trinkets

[alpine latch]

I've got the valor to boost a m+2 Phial to 220, so I'm just trying to get any damn one I can get

[limber lion]

Definitely not the worst trinkets you can have.

[alpine latch]

Nope, not at all

A lot of it is also me just playing better. I'm still rusty

[woven summit]

What do you guys usually put Doomblade on? Shoulders I reckon?

And how do you guys feel about your spec, the mighty assassination being viable again for raiding? 😮

The assassins are back in play! 💪

[hollow river]

Gloves I believe. Check out the pins

[spice spire]

Gloves - same stat cap but shoulders are higher pieces on the penultimate boss for both 9.0 and 9.1

But also sin gamers rise up for half a patch

[woven summit]

Ah gloves, great, because I got good shoulders.

[woven summit]

Yeah I checked the pins but couldn't find this particular info

Thanks though, appreciate it bro

[hollow river]

Oo my bad

Imagine not having the pins memorized

[woven summit]

Yeah it's neat, hopefully it will become bit better in m+ as well for those that want to try something else than outlaw.

[hollow river]

It’s decent in keys now

[balmy condor]

thanks for checking first

[woven summit]

I'll try it in m+ as well

[balmy condor]

Sin is quite comparable in keys

[woven summit]

Got bored of Outlaw so much

[balmy condor]

Outlaw is better for sure, but sin does roughly the same damage

[woven summit]

I played only sin in BFA and it was very cool

[woven summit]

nice, that's awesome

So the comparison is like in BFA when it comes to Outlaw vs Sin in m+?

Because I remember SIN being very good with the right traits at least

[odd heath]

Good times with shrouded suffocation and echoing blades

[woven summit]

indeed

[balmy condor]

Kinda, yeah

[rose ermine]

Should I run Quantum Device & Flayed Wing or Hateful Chain and Flayed Wing?

[balmy condor]

quantum and hateful chain

flayed wing is pretty awful

I would sim it just to make sure, probably ilvl differences

[rose ermine]

Hateful Chain is 213 and Flayed is 197 gonna go with Chain till Phial drops.

[limber lion]

Flayed Wing

[balmy condor]

oh jesus

[limber lion]

Never use that trinket then.

[balmy condor]

yeah definitely don't use that flayed

[rose ermine]

Just need that Phial to drop.

[stoic needle]

Flayedwing toxin

I wonder how busted it would be if sbs worked with VW

[limber lion]

Very.

8.3 levels of bad.

[balmy condor]

I wonder how busted it would be if vendetta had no cooldown and was aoe and gave 5cp every second

[stoic needle]

Ok hyperbole much

[balmy condor]

wow just gonna shit on me having a dream man

[limber lion]

I'll pretend I know what that word means.

[stoic needle]

You mean 8.3 levels of good

[vestal wren]

so, should fok get subtleties cp model?

[cerulean nest]

yes pls

[stoic needle]

I'd like that as an anima power

It's honestly kinda crazy that ss and eb aren't anima powers

[vestal wren]

but wait, didn't people complain that using a finisher every 2nd gcd is stupid gameplay?

i expected more hostility against this idea

[balmy condor]

people don't know what they want fuu

welcome to the wow community

[limber lion]

Yeah, you're expecting a bit too much here.

[cerulean nest]

it's easy and does big damage....I mean.....

[stoic needle]

I think it's only boring in the context of sub because you only use bp

[limber lion]

People complain regardless.

[stoic needle]

With sin you'd rupture and ct and envenom

That's 3x as interesting!

But yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with some degeneracy in a torghast context

[vestal wren]

rly depends on ct damage

if ct damage is high enough you would also only maintian enough bleeds to get enough energy for ct

[limber lion]

We don't spam ct.

... yet.

[vestal wren]

ct spam was the most common mistake at the start of bfa

😛

[limber lion]

Yuuup :p

That's why I said "yet". It'll happen eventually

[gusty mirage]

don't shame our sentient being for not understanding human irrationality, he hasn't received that firmware update yet

[bitter canyon]

If you’re not suppose to spam ct then what do you do 🤔

[balmy condor]

multidot

everything

[limber lion]

Apply bleeds, use Envenom

[bitter canyon]

And then spam ct once you have steady energy income right

[balmy condor]

no

[limber lion]

... No.

[bitter canyon]

😦

[balmy condor]

you multidot everything

if you're running out of things to dot, you're either in a very low target count pull, like a boss, in which case you envenom, or you're lying

:P

[bitter canyon]

I find that I apply garrote and ruptures to 3 or so targets and then CT spamming gives me the most dps

[stoic needle]

Is there a time to die threshold where it can be worth it to spam ct? Like say less than 5 or 6 seconds?

[balmy condor]

nope, that's envenom time

[bitter canyon]

I’ve never hit 10k+ dps without spamming CT on groups bigger than 5

[stoic needle]

Well I have

So

Lol

[bitter canyon]

dang maybe I’m just shit

[stoic needle]

Even if you have lots of time on SnD and there's 8+ mobs?

[limber lion]

If you're spamming CT, then you got that right.

But you can change!

[balmy condor]

from what I've seen yeah

I guess I could look into it again at some point this week

[bitter canyon]

Is there any way to get gameplay review or something? I’m rather new to playing sin in shadowlands so I’d love to improve

From either streamers or other people

[balmy condor]

linking logs

[limber lion]

Sure, you can send us VODs of you playing or just linking your logs

[balmy condor]

cev offering vod reviews

jesus

[bitter canyon]

logs as in Warcraft logs?

[balmy condor]

man must really hate himself

[limber lion]

Implying that streamers are good players.

[balmy condor]

yes

[stoic needle]

The only time ive felt the need to use ct more than once is like, during slg when we're nuking skirmishers/commandos and everyone is blowing everything, or those couple caster pulls in SD where they also get vaporized

[bitter canyon]

I thought they were just for raiding, shoot!

[limber lion]

https://tenor.com/view/youre-right-breaking-bad-walter-white-gif-5292336

[bitter canyon]

Thanks for the TIL!

[balmy condor]

log reviews are already like 45 minutes of work

[stoic needle]

It's very niche when the mobs are low HP and also getting blown the fuck up

[balmy condor]

vod reviews

I did one of those and it took hours

[vestal wren]

i never did a vod review

log reviews 45 mins sounds very in detail

[bitter canyon]

Is this what you’re looking for?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/aggramar/ironsasquash?zone=25&new=true

[vestal wren]

i feel like i would cover most things in 10-20 mins max

[bitter canyon]

I did not expect these numbers at all

[limber lion]

Are you specifically looking for help in M+?

[balmy condor]

dungeon parses are really stupid, I wouldn't bother thinking about them

[vestal wren]

logging dungeons is good tho

because you can look at pull sizes and duration for your group

[stoic needle]

The parses by default are based on key level not dps

[limber lion]

Definitely, but the parses are just not relevant whatsoever

[balmy condor]

there are very little logs though

[stoic needle]

And there aren't many high level players logging their dungeons

Publicly

[balmy condor]

these are all leaderboard

[vestal wren]

i know whispyr, i wish the m+ scene would log more

robot wants more data to make statistical analysis

[limber lion]

Here's my m+ parses and I've never even done a +21

M+ parses are dumb dumb dumb

They shouldn't exist

[vestal wren]

r.io is basically "m+ parses"

[balmy condor]

I find WCL needs to at least have a toggle between combat dps and total dps

[limber lion]

Exactly and now it's getting incorporated in-game

[balmy condor]

cause looking at this

[limber lion]

So no point for WCL tracking the same stuff as well

[balmy condor]

I have no fucking clue how much damage that is

[bitter canyon]

Got it, mainly looking for help with M+ since it’s hard to find good raiding guilds on my server

[vestal wren]

i am of the oposite opinion

[limber lion]

You can always realm transfer. That's what I did :P

[vestal wren]

with the m+ scene growing, there is more incentive to log your runs

[limber lion]

Fuu

We're not talking about logging your runs

We're talking about the parse

That you get for doing your run

Logging your run is 100% worth it

Especially if you want to get better

But getting a 97 parse from a run that you did

How does that work itself out?

Why is it a 97?

They shouldn't be ranked.

[gusty mirage]

excuse half of them

[vestal wren]

isn't the parse just measuring one metric? (can you swithc that?)

[bitter canyon]

I’ll definitely try logging my runs in the future, thanks guys!

[vestal wren]

so if it measures time/dps/etc... going to look at this is interesting

even if there is not a lot of relevance to that data

[bitter canyon]

Really new to a lot of the 3rd party websites and stuff like Warcraftlogs and raider.Io and it’s hard finding guides that talk about this kind of stuff

[balmy condor]

feel free to continue asking questions, m+ log reviews are kinda rough

[limber lion]

It can measure speed, damage, healing, damage to bosses and points.

But they're all really dumb.

[balmy condor]

talk about what exactly, logs and io?

[stoic ferry]

hey guys, CT with more combo points only increases duration and not initial damage does it? Trying to figure out how to optimize using it in P1 mythic Sire when adds live like 2-3 seconds. Also as venthyr with doomblade BS/DS/CT do I always maintain CT at the expense of envenoms?

[bitter canyon]

Which websites to use, how to log stuff, what are parses etc

[gusty mirage]

Ryfie just released his sin m+ guide not too long ago (few days?)

[limber lion]

But yeah, I'll take a quick peek and see if I find something obvious.

[gusty mirage]

I skimmed through it, its good stuff

[balmy condor]

CT instant damage increases per combo point, the duration on the dot increases, the dot tick damage does not

[limber lion]

Alright I found one log, let's see

[vestal wren]

ct initial damage also scales with cp

from spell data

[bitter canyon]

Been playing in a really casual guild and I’ve reached the point where everything that I want to do I need to pug, feels like I’m really in the dark when ppl are talking about parses and logs and what not

[balmy condor]

nobody gonna read that sadly

[gusty mirage]

how much ram do you have to pull it up that quick?

[balmy condor]

ram?

pulling up spell data is a non-issue

[gusty mirage]

he was able to search through the DB in his brain and post it

[limber lion]

Yeah, here's a start:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2Db7rkSIiT56b0PXQPjugZATnyx6aDOflx4oZgVwgs/edit

[gusty mirage]

dang you have batch files to pull spell data?

[vestal wren]

its just a java script file that calls simc

[stoic ferry]

alright thank you, what about maintaining CT on ST? heard that it doesn't really impact dps since it comes at the cost of doomblade envenoms but that it's different for venthyr?

[spice spire]

Enough ram to watch NA get walloped by OCE too

[limber lion]

Use CT outside of Shiv windows, even in single target.

[vestal wren]

basically changes spaces to _ and then uses simc.exe spell_query=spell.name=spell_name

[stoic ferry]

cheers!

[vestal wren]

you could do so in a batch file too i assume

[bitter canyon]

C. Kyrian & Nightfae
Please swap covenants

lmao!

[stoic needle]

Is this included with the wow installation? How can I get access to this

[balmy condor]

it's a simc script he made

[stoic needle]

That's badass

[balmy condor]

if you have a local install of simc you can just spell query there

[stoic needle]

Oh okay

[vestal wren]

^ what whispyr says

you need a local copy of simc to queue up spells/items

[limber lion]

@bitter canyon

1. Stop using Ambush so much. You only want to use Ambush from Blindside procs. Seeing how you play Night Fae with Elaborate Planning, you should never be pressing Ambush. Just stick to Mutilate.

2. Why exactly are you running Doomblade? Zoldyck is the better choice, especially on a dungeon as dense as DoS. Do you not have Zoldyck?

3. You need to sort your opener out. You should be using 3-4 garrotes every opener, but you rarely do that. Again, do not press Ambush during Subterfuge windows.

4. You should prio using Crimson Tempest more. It should be a lot higher in the damage chart. Getting bleeds up and maintaining them is #1 priority. Even if you use Shiv, you should just stick to applying bleeds instead of using Envenoms on the Shiv'd target. You still need to occasionally Shiv to keep SnD up, of course.

5. Sepsis before Shiv, not the other way around.

6. Check your general rotation. Ryfie's guide has a few examples or you can ask about them here and we'll hook you up.

[spice spire]

And since fuu is one with their machine

[vestal wren]

tbh thats rly easy stuff

i just prefere using a script over opening the spell data manually and control + f to find all spell entries

[bitter canyon]

@limber lion are you looking at recent runs? I’ve been doing most of what was stated but only recently in the past month when I decided to sort out my gameplay. In the beginning I used to use vanish for ambush procs but stopped soon after

[stoic needle]

Yeah it's a minimal loss to not ct on st with Doomblade as necrolord, not sure if it's true for kyrian and night fae, but it's a moderate loss for venthyr

It think it has something to do with sbs giving envenom bonus damage

But the CP and energy cost of ct mitigating some of the dps boost to envenom from CT because you envenom less

[balmy condor]

pretty sure he's looking at a log from april, since that's one of the few logs on your profile

[bitter canyon]

I also switched to necrolord a few weeks ago too

Ah shoot, sorry

[limber lion]

Yeah, there's literally no logs up.

But great to hear if you've improved on all of those things then. :)

[bitter canyon]

Yea my bad, I’ll definetly try to get some up soon so I can also dissect them

I use to be a shitter I admit haha

Also, I don’t have zoldyck because of soul ash, I can make the legendary right now but I’d drop 4 or so item levels and I’m not sure if that’s worth it

[limber lion]

I did say that we can do log reviews, but I don't really recommend them for m+. You're better off just watching Ryfie's stream and see what he's doing and if you get confused, ask about it here.

[limber lion]

Definitely is.

You get it for the effect, not the ilvl.

Zoldyck is heaps better than Doomblade in most M+ dungeons.

[bitter canyon]

I would be swapping out my 226 leggings for 210 and 235 shoulders for 207 which was why I have mainly held back, so do you still think it’s worth it?

[stoic needle]

Yeah

[balmy condor]

doomblade shoulders

oof

[stoic needle]

[bitter canyon]

Oopsies

Didn’t really think the actual piece of armor mattered when I made it back then

[stoic needle]

We're going to be swimming in soul ash in 9.1 though, I suspect that recrafting will be common

[bitter canyon]

By the time I realized it was already at 3rd upgrade 😦

[balmy condor]

shoulder/hands isn't really that important

[stoic needle]

They're upping the rates and letting you grind it infinitely

[balmy condor]

but it can still kinda trip you up if you get SLG shoulders

and then can't equip them

[bitter canyon]

Ah I see

I still have much to learn

[stoic needle]

Also in 9.1 there will be shoulders with domination sockets

So it's not just ilvl

[spice spire]

DB shoulder gamers

[frozen meadow]

whats the appropriate slot for DB?

[limber lion]

SLG shoulders are a myth.

[balmy condor]

hands

[stoic needle]

We will see if you can add those sockets to legendaries

[frozen meadow]

cheers

rip shoulder life

[limber lion]

What does this even mean lmao

[balmy condor]

he crafted shoulders

[frozen meadow]

means i made shoulders and wasted my ash

[halcyon zealot]

“wasted” lol

[frozen meadow]

yea, wasted, coz who wants to spend time in snoreghast?

[halcyon zealot]

tbf if you’re asking what slot you should craft it on this late in the tier, there’s a 99.999% chance it does not matter what slot you craft in

[bitter canyon]

Another last question before I go back to reading Ryfie’s guide, Ryfie says that crit>haste for secondary stats which conflicts with wowhead and icyveins, in the future im guessing I probably shouldn’t trust those sites for accurate data?

Been trying to stack haste on all of my gear so that kinda really sucks

[balmy condor]

no you definitely should trust those sites

[limber lion]

They are probably talking about different scenarios.

[stoic needle]

The icy veins is more generalized, ryfie's is tailored to mythic plus

[limber lion]

The guides are generally written with raiding in mind whereas Ryfie's is for M+.

[frozen meadow]

ty rozay this is true

[balmy condor]

ryfie's guide is his opinion first and foremost, so take that with a grain of salt

[bitter canyon]

ahh I see

[stoic needle]

Torghast >>>>>>>>> every other chore blizzard has come up with prior and you can't change my mind

[balmy condor]

there are some sims to back it up, but m+ is more tricky to just sim and call a day than single target

[stoic needle]

I will gladly grind the shit out of torghast for sockets instead of doing dailies

[bitter canyon]

That’s definetly true

Got it, thank you all so much!

Learned more about my class in the past hour than the past 2 months lmaoooo

[limber lion]

kill me

[spice spire]

Torghast has novelty to it at least

[frozen meadow]

hgahahaha

[stoic needle]

I gotta do my weekly runs when I get home

[limber lion]

I'd rather run ICC and get absolutely nothing out of it

[balmy condor]

torg is like a rogue-like in pre-alpha

you can see the intent

[stoic needle]

Ehh I'd rather do torghast than run old dungeons for transmog

[balmy condor]

but it's just boring as fuck

cause there's nothing there

[spice spire]

Don’t you ever slander invincible like that

[balmy condor]

there's nothing inherently challenging about torg

[spice spire]

Also visions were alright

[balmy condor]

like the mechanics aren't really interesting

[stoic needle]

That could be easily fixed with a difficulty slider

[limber lion]

No it wouldn't

[balmy condor]

you either high roll the 4-5 traits you need

[spice spire]

Torghast was challenging pre-200. Post it’s pretty

[balmy condor]

and then manage to kill things

[limber lion]

Making content hard numerically is not good design

[balmy condor]

or you don't get the traits you need

[limber lion]

It was flat out impossible to complete at some point

[stoic needle]

And yeah it needs better traits

[limber lion]

If you got unlucky with your powers.

[balmy condor]

and then you have too high number on mobs

sucks to suck

[limber lion]

Ye

[balmy condor]

you didn't get the 3 traits to make you immune to 150k autos

wow

amazing

[stoic needle]

Yeah I vividly remember failing runs during the beginning

[balmy condor]

thanks

[limber lion]

Numbers won't save Torghast.

[stoic needle]

I mean you can't change just one thing and fix it obviously

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the autos that the mobs use being dodgeable kind of like the one mawsworn that does the flame empowered cone auto attacks

[compact pumice]

We getting sockets from Torghast? awww yeah

[stoic needle]

So you can kite as a defense instead of needing to just tank things

[compact pumice]

That sounds better than the Maw shit

[stoic needle]

And conduit upgrades

[balmy condor]

the inherent flaw in torg is that they tried to recreate a style of game with near infinite replay ability, but then introduced nothing that creates that

[compact pumice]

N i c e

[balmy condor]

torg was solved in days

[compact pumice]

The Maw is way more shit though

[stoic needle]

The powers just don't do enough

[compact pumice]

Been doing it every day and it's just, trash

[compact pumice]

For rogues*, Monks and Mages etc get completely fucking OP in there

[balmy condor]

its not that they don't do enough, there's not enough, and provide no interaction

[stoic needle]

Like different upgrades in roguelikes like binding of Isaac totally change the way you play the game sometimes

[balmy condor]

70% of torg powers are "have some stats"

maybe it's "have some stats sometimes"

or "have some stats always"

but there's nothing interesting about it

and it doesn't do anything for your gameplay

[compact pumice]

If they wanted to compete with an actual good example of a roguelike they would need to change some fundamental decisions about Torghast. Such as it being a game where you mainly do it for fun and challenge

[simple wadi]

Don’t worry everyone - I’m sure torghast will become an adventure table mission soon enough

[stoic needle]

I don't know if they have the development bandwidth to really create interesting powers like that

[plain thistle]

torg as a shaman is super nice, rogue is just boring

shaman has some amazing and fun powers

[stoic needle]

Like if they did it would probably come at the cost of a whole raid tier or something

[balmy condor]

then torg is doomed to fail

[compact pumice]

Tbh with the amount of Classes WoW has now it's just fucking hard to design for it all

[frozen meadow]

i agree rogue has nothing really fun

in torg

[compact pumice]

I mean even back in classic/TBC it was hard to balance

[frozen meadow]

most fun is gett 1mil envenom with shadow step

getting*

[balmy condor]

the gameplay loop of a roguelike is "fuck I want that BUT this thing"

[stoic needle]

But even then that's just your normal gameplay loop

[balmy condor]

and torg gameplay loop is "fuck I'm not getting X"

[stoic needle]

Just times 1 million

[compact pumice]

Like getting 400% finisher damage should give mobs 50% dodge

So it’s win some gain some

[balmy condor]

I haven't had to think about what anima power I'm taking

in months

and that's a huge fucking problem

[limber lion]

I had the choice between the EPIC POWER that grants me Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades whenever I use Vendetta, and the grey power Unceasing Chain Link

I chose Unceasing Chain Link.

[stoic needle]

They tried to make some of the powers have drawbacks but they are just straight up buffs half the time

Like who cares if you can't jump

Or if your arcane damage and healing is lower if you don't do any arcane damage kekw

[limber lion]

Honestly fuck that power. I jump like a spastic all the time

I jump everytime I shadowstep.

[stoic needle]

I think part of the problem is that since this is a required gameplay activity to get a legendary which is a core expansion feature they have to keep the powers kind of tame

They don't want casuals bricking their runs

[royal lantern]

^

if you make shit too hard, 99%of the community cant do it

remember that most people never enter a raid

[balmy condor]

you can make content easy and interesting

[strange python]

I cleared level 8 torghast as a 155 havoc dh yesterday - I would hate to see what it’s like as rogue as 155 lol

[limber lion]

Torghast was flat out too hard previously. I'm glad they tuned it down.

[balmy condor]

no one said "make torg harder I love harder, the powers are great just please it's too easy"

[limber lion]

It used to be a fuck ton of trouble just for some soul ash

[balmy condor]

its that the fucking gameplay is shit to begin with

[limber lion]

At least it's a quicky that you get done easily now.

[balmy condor]

who cares how hard it is

if its garbage

[limber lion]

Yep

[royal lantern]

must resist penis joke

[strange python]

Lol

[vestal wren]

torghast is just not developed enough

even experienced companies need several iterations to create a good roguelike

you can't expect blizz to sucessfully do so first try without iteration

[balmy condor]

I expected something other than an abject failure

[vestal wren]

(also with a somewhat half thought through implementation)

[strange python]

I thought torghast was pretty fun when it first came out.. just got boring quick

[vestal wren]

i did say during early beta that the system will only have players engaged very short term.
IIrc most people did disagree back then

[strange python]

Especially the first couple layers of twisted, but that got old really fast xD

[spice spire]

I think for torghast to succeed it just needs better options on powers.

I thought the coolest power was the mage lust with double time, but you die at the end.

And it got removed

[balmy condor]

@vestal wren .

[sacred glacier]

is there a set order in which you always want to finish with Crimson Tempest, Envenom and Rupture? Do you bother with Rupture if the mob is going to die quickly? Do you try to maintain Crimson Tempest in the same way you maintain Rupture?

[balmy condor]

CT on 3+ > rupture > envenom

[vestal wren]

btw. whispyr do you want me to write something up for pandemic?

iirc you wanted a bot command for it

[sacred glacier]

@balmy condor thank you

[balmy condor]

yeah I mentioned it last night when I was half asleep, I'll send you something today

[vestal wren]

no hurry 🙂

[limber lion]

It didn't.

I just did a Torghast and I had that power.

And it's 3x the duration.

:p

[spice spire]

Isn’t it getting nixed in 9.1?

[limber lion]

Oh no clue.

[spice spire]

Yeah my tense was weird there I’m 99% sure it’s being changed to not kill you and do something else weird

[limber lion]

It's still in the game, not sure if they're removing it come 9.1

[stoic needle]

Yeah it just stuns you for 10s in the new iteration

[limber lion]

I mean, I didn't really enjoy it killing me whenever I ascended a floor or left Torghast.

[sacred glacier]

@balmy condor when you say CT on 3+, do you mean 3 or more targets or 3 or more combo points? I ask because the FAQ advises using finishers on max - 1 combo points and I'm trying to reconcile that with the 3+ in your counsel

[balmy condor]

combo points

is the same

3+

is the target

you don't want to prio CT over rupture on 1-2 targets

[spice spire]

I enjoyed the risk/reward. A 10s stun seems inconsequential imo

But there’s also no more death counters

[gleaming viper]

guys, what make 85% of players using EP and Vigor on most bosses "instead" of BS and DS ?

[balmy condor]

removes a button, better aoe, better burst

[stoic needle]

EP vigor is better for cleave and for short fights

[plain thistle]

in my case laziness

🙂

[gleaming viper]

ok i see, so whatever simc says, i have to adapt (losing 1,4% with EP&V) on patchwerk 5min

[plain thistle]

hmmm 1.4% looks like a lot

[balmy condor]

1.4% is quite high

[gleaming viper]

yes

thats why i ask ^^

[stoic needle]

It's usually only ~.5% for me

As venthyr

[balmy condor]

link the sim

[stoic needle]

Even less as necrolord

[gleaming viper]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a7SAEK8BaKiXHMUxT8HKz7

[balmy condor]

that's 0.7%

[plain thistle]

yeah, 0.7%

[gleaming viper]

what im reading wrong so ?

[balmy condor]

the top is BS/DS

vigor is 0.7% behind

actually hold on

it's even less

lmao

[plain thistle]

and as a necro the difference is gone, for my character at least

[balmy condor]

the top one has a socket

that the others dont

[gleaming viper]

yeah i just updated, running again its 0,6% kek

[stoic needle]

Yeah it's like 10 dps for me as necro

I like blindside gameplay though so I run it anyway

[gleaming viper]

ty guys !

[balmy condor]

np

[limber lion]

[compact pumice]

The epic power is really good as outlaw w/ celerity, every time celerity procs you get a full duration shadow blades and vendetta. Kinda fun. But the grey power is probably better even then. If I get that epic I usually spec swap and gear swap at the next “shop bubble”

[limber lion]

That does sound fun. Never gonna experience it though, as I'm never entering Torghast as Outlaw.

We're sin boys in here

[compact pumice]

You can swap at floor 3 and 6

In the bubble

I would never start as OL though. It’s terrible

[tulip nacelle]

I go outlaw and just stealth through at this point

Anima powers are for nubz

[vast forum]

sub is better if you're just stealthing through tho

[tulip nacelle]

ye maybe, I'm just an ol player

[limber swallow]

outlaw is fine... if you like your DPS and fun to be mildly driven by slot machines...

[tulip nacelle]

that's a pretty fried take

[limber swallow]

I got my KSM as outlaw...

[tulip nacelle]

I got CE as outlaw...

[limber swallow]

yuck, lol

[limber lion]

I did everything as Assa.

[tulip nacelle]

let's not argue

[limber lion]

Imagine playing Outlaw

[tulip nacelle]

I'll just crawl back to #outlaw

[limber lion]

Feel free to dip in once in a while :)

[tulip nacelle]

I check this channel often, I am sometimes tempted by trying out sin, not having a 226 dagger yet makes me not want to

[royal lantern]

imagine playing wow

[limber lion]

I'm still rocking 226/220 daggers myself

I actually killed SLG with a 220 main hand as Outlaw

Don't let the ilvl of your weapon choose which spec you play!

[iron orchid]

me too man

[odd heath]

Me too

[limber lion]

But I've also been actively playing the game non-stop and killed Mythic Sire Denathrius

[amber mountain]

<.<

.>

[limber lion]

And CoB quite a few times.

[odd heath]

Only slg shoulders and denny weapons to loot as 233ilvl.. got all the rest

[amber mountain]

i'm still rocking 213's 😛

[limber lion]

It's okay boys

We will get massive items from our weekly vaults

[amber mountain]

<=Filthy casual

[odd heath]

750 stygia

[amber mountain]

I just spend 90+ hours a week in the game >.<

[royal lantern]

i killed daddynathrius with 220/213 lmao

[amber mountain]

You guys are talking mythic right?

[frosty bridge]

You can't evasion night hunters on Sire can you?

lel

[stoic needle]

I think I've entered the stygia gaming zone

I got a bis sub ring last week but for the past 3/4 weeks I've gotten trash

[limber lion]

Nope.

[limber lion]

Ye

[amber mountain]

Thanks, i had to dive in to work for a bit and missed the context

I'm only doing heroic

[limber lion]

Gotta start somewhere.

[bleak rapids]

Trying to play a Sin rogue alt and my guild won't let me in the mythic raid

[tulip nacelle]

mythic alt or main raid?

[stoic needle]

[bleak rapids]

Main raid, we tried a mythic alt raid last expanision and it fell apart

[tulip nacelle]

like unless everyone is actually fully geared I also wouldn't want alts in main raid, unless you mean first bosses, then sure, that's a different story

[thin trout]

how does the phantom fire potino cheese work?

[limber lion]

You use Theotar with Refined palate, use pre-potion, switch back to Nadja with tome.

[balmy condor]

It’s not phantom fire specific though

That’s just a potion thing in general

[thin trout]

thanks

[regal cape]

Same. Multiple resets later and still 220/213

[low girder]

same 😦

[granite thistle]

@balmy condor haste or crit on my legendary

:)

[cerulean nest]

yes

[balmy condor]

[granite thistle]

Gottem

[balmy condor]

He’s memeing me from like 2 days ago

[granite thistle]

IT WAS YESTERDAY

[balmy condor]

Dude I’ve worked 10 days in a row now

I only understand “home time” and “work time”

Everything else is a glob

[granite thistle]

:)

[compact pumice]

Dude. 10 Days in a row doesn't seem legal. But I guess America?

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

Anything for moolah

[odd hazel]

i mean

i worked 7 weeks straight once but i did it willingly

[flint snow]

for the bs/ds vs ep/vigor debate, how wide of a %gap would you say it's actually significantly detrimental to take the lower simming choice?

[frail fossil]

how far are u into the raid ?

[compact pumice]

That is very personal. Depends on how much worse you're playing with the "harder choice" and loads of other variables you don't really know. If you do know some of them you can make a more informed choice, but if all you have is the sim then why not follow the sim?

[limber lion]

Any loss in dps is detrimental for me, but it might not be for you. It really depends on what you value more and what you prefer to play.

[compact pumice]

Why? Tbh something like that should be protected by worker laws, even if it's protection from themselves. It's not worth potentially getting burned out (shit like that can sneak up on you). If you're for some reason saving for some huge purchase it's even less worth it, sacrificing a healthy stable work schedule for something that can potentially put you on long term sick leave.

[odd hazel]

EP/Vigor usually does better when adds come into play for me as venthyr. if its pure like Sludge, BS/DS but you can go vigor if you dont like how slow it is i guess. i dont think either are that big of a dps loss though.

even in my M+ build its only like maybe 100 (200? maybe ) ST difference

[odd hazel]

i was like, 20 at the time and didnt have anything else to do.

[limber lion]

Ep/Vig is better for Sludge because you want to maximize your burst windows during the vulnerability phases.

[odd hazel]

is it? i'll have to try it then.

Makes sense though considering the extra damage

[limber lion]

Yes.

You can just open up WCL and take a look yourself

[compact pumice]

How is EP/DS there though?

Specifically on sludge

[limber lion]

Bad.

[compact pumice]

Ah

[limber lion]

You want the extra energy and regen for the windows

Or you get energy starved during them

[odd hazel]

i mean

i still do fine with that build

6.4k on heroic sludge. at 215 ilvl ( but, i did do significantly worse about ~200 less damage at 218 )

[limber lion]

You can do "fine" with any build.

[compact pumice]

You lose more dps by not pressing the right buttons than any build choice

BS/DS did really well when I was Venthyr, I haven't simmed the difference since I swapped to Necro but I remember hearing ES/Vig is closer to BS/DS as Necro

[limber lion]

That is correct.

[odd hazel]

Interesting, im gonna have to go parse hunting then now :^) looking at WCL now.

the top log is necro though

stares at 2 PI buffs must be nice to get it

[limber lion]

With how many externals?

Yep.

[odd hazel]

how does it feel to get PI

[limber lion]

I wouldn't know

[compact pumice]

Usually I don't feel it at all, but then I only get it randomly in M+ sometimes

Always tell them to give it to someone else

Haste just basically helps you passively, gives you slightly more energy, slightly faster dot ticks, melee hits. But you probably don't notice it since it doesn't make your rotation that much quicker (or rather there's so much waiting as Assa that you're waiting about the same amount).

[odd hazel]

yeah, it just amazes me that people have 4 priests willingly giving them 4 PIs

its always like the boomy or lock that gets it over me ( and they still dont do well )

[lost shadow]

Can't believe people are still stupid enough to give boomies PI

[compact pumice]

But the PI might be overall more effective going on a class that scales with haste during CDs, even though they overall play worse than you

But yeah, boomie's shouldn't get em tbh 😛

[frail fossil]

i mean might aswell PI a blood dk if you PI a boomkin

[pure sinew]

do i need to bind dagger toss

sorry poison knife

[compact pumice]

It's actually good, esp as assa. It procs both poisons

[silent fossil]

better to hit that than hit nothing during downtime if <max cp if youre going to cap energy

[compact pumice]

also I use it in open world/pvp with Septic Shock to get to 5cp from 4cp ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pure sinew]

if im out of range shouldnt i just shadowstep back

[compact pumice]

Not during a mechanic

[pure sinew]

also numbing poison is default right

[compact pumice]

Sure. Unless tank wants crip in an M+ or something

[pure sinew]

ill just put poison knife where pistol shot is

does ass rogue have poopoo aoe

or decent

[compact pumice]

if you spec into it, with CT, it's decent

bit worse than Outlaw most of the time, but can actually be better with 8 high health targets.

[cerulean burrow]

So do you guys think they might give assa some type of additional raid buff or utility. For 9.1

[compact pumice]

Who knows

[pure sinew]

where do you find 8 high health targets lol

[compact pumice]

They have hinted it so much though, I find it weird if they wouldn't do it

[cerulean burrow]

And would you says it’s safe that I swapped to me to from vents to level up my tenpin before 9.1.

[compact pumice]

pretty much never. Unless you're pulling very large in M+

[cerulean burrow]

Swapped to necro from venth

[compact pumice]

Necro seems very good in 9.1 yeah

But who knows what they tweak last minute

[cerulean burrow]

I hope our single target as necro is solid

[pure sinew]

im thinking about swapping off of nf

[cerulean burrow]

So we can just swap between assa and outlaw on fights

[compact pumice]

ST is pretty close between Venth and Necro both now and in 9.1

[pure sinew]

wait shiv amps nf right?

because shiv amps nature damage?

[compact pumice]

Yes

[pure sinew]

ok so its not that bad

[compact pumice]

NF Is Okay

[pure sinew]

i decided on nf because it was the least brainpower out of the 4

its literally passive

[compact pumice]

But it's behind. The only reason to actually be NF is for Soulshape

Soulshape is really great

[pure sinew]

nf is kind of awkward in m+

[cerulean burrow]

So correct me if I’m wrong because I am very new to rogue typically do people switch between outlaw and assa on raid fights depending on how many targets there are ?

[compact pumice]

I mean Flagellation has the same CD, same way to use, the only difference is it scales with CP's afterwards, but you just keep to your normal rotation.

And it's better

[pure sinew]

for flag, wouldnt it be optimal to start flagging at max energy and cp?

[compact pumice]

Yeah

Well

[pure sinew]

thats the minor brainpower im talking about

[compact pumice]

You do it before first rupture in opener

I mean

It's harder to time Sepsis with Vanish (MA) for the last dot tick

[pure sinew]

Im an outlaw primary these days

I just like the sub color

[compact pumice]

Some people do do yeah.

[cerulean burrow]

I play both

Because I feel like it’s more optimal

I think

I might be wrong I literally just started rogue so

[compact pumice]

You don't really have to. The only raid fight where Outlaw is kinda better is Mythic SLG, but assa has another niche there whereas Outlaw still gets beat by other classes

[cerulean burrow]

I’m still learning them both.

So like here’s my big question

As a necro lord assa

Are we competitive as far as 2 and 3 target cleave goes ? Or are we literally just got at single target

[pure sinew]

learn outlaw for m+ tho

[cerulean burrow]

Good*

[shy dust]

Assa cleave is nuts

[cerulean burrow]

And if we are mostly just good at single target why wouldn’t we go@venth ?

[compact pumice]

Assassination is probably the best class for 2 target cleave. And very good on 3 target (dunno if anyone else beats here)

And necro is the best Cov for it

[cerulean burrow]

Got yuh hmm I can’t seem to find a 2 and 3 target rotation. On YouTube : / can anyone refer me to a good video ? With bone spike

Got it that makes sense ! Is there any talents we switch to for cleave ?

I’m starting to understand now

[compact pumice]

It's basically keep dots up and when all dots are up normal ST rotation

yeah you should go EP/Vigor/Crimson Tempest for Cleave (or AOE in general)

[cerulean burrow]

I feel like I could easily keep dots up but my energy regen is slow

Is that probably because of my stats ?

[compact pumice]

That goes away in cleave, you get so much energy from VW

Just make sure you have poisons and garrote + rupture up

Literally unlimited energy if you have enough bleeds up

[cerulean burrow]

What is vw one more time ?

[compact pumice]

Venomous Wounds (give you 8 energy per tick from Garrote and Rupture if the target is poisoned)

I mean, just read through some of these, it might help

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[cerulean burrow]

Okay !

Thank youuuu

So like do I just use bonespike in place of mutilate on cd?

Essentially ?

[balmy condor]

You use bonespike to get the dot up ASAP on your targets

And then during gemstone

But for the sake of simplicity

Yes

Bonespike just replaces mutilates

[compact pumice]

It's super nice to use during Shiv to not go out of energy trying to get that 3rd Envenom off

But I don't have gemstone yet (damn renown, one more row)

[cerulean burrow]

Gemstones

I don’t even know what that is

I’ll have to look it up

[balmy condor]

The end trait of heirmir

[cerulean burrow]

Oh okay ! I’m assuming he’s the best overall one to choose

I’m assuming I’ll have to make a weak aura for that too

[balmy condor]

Yeah optimally you would

[cerulean burrow]

So I can see when it’s up

Ok wow thanks guys

This is rrallly good info

[shy dust]

Whispyr why is it EP vigor for cleave

[cerulean burrow]

Really *

[shy dust]

Wouldn’t the extra energy lend more power to deeper

[balmy condor]

Well yes

[compact pumice]

BS is only slightly ahead on ST, but EP works on the damage on both targets while BS doesn't

[balmy condor]

Sustained cleave is deeper

[shy dust]

Yeah

[cerulean burrow]

Oh and yeah one last thingggg. What’s the most optimal trinkets ? Dread fire and phial ?

[shy dust]

I see people always recommend just EP/vigor

[balmy condor]

Phial + anything really

[shy dust]

Which just seems a bit dumb

[warm parcel]

mfd nonbelievers

[thorny pond]

There aren't many scenarios where sustained cleave is a thing

most of it is cleave from fresh

[cerulean burrow]

Thank you @balmy condor

[balmy condor]

Deeper is just crappy opener tbh but vigor is close enough, we use vigor in keys for 3 garrotes, which is really crumby with deeper

But deeper is honestly fine

Vigor also helps with overcap

But yeh

[compact pumice]

EP/DS on Huntsman then?

Or still EP/vig

[balmy condor]

Vigor/deeper is honestly the same

[compact pumice]

That's the closest to sustained cleave I can think of

[shy dust]

Weirdos

[balmy condor]

You trade 5% finisher for 10% energy on huntsman

And it ends up being pretty much whatever

It’s just FEELS better

[shy dust]

Wow thought you were against that

Guess even the stalwart can falter

[balmy condor]

I am against feelcraft

[compact pumice]

Is there a statistic on how much more or less you overcap on CP as DS/Vig? I would imagine it would differ slightly

[balmy condor]

But the difference is so marginal

That I really couldn’t care to correct people on something so deeply rooted in the spec

Ep subt vigor is one of those talent builds that people have always used and always loved

If we’re being completely accurate, mfd is actually the talent of choice

For cleave and aoe

And dungeons

But no one bothers running it

[compact pumice]

I dunno why it feels different as assa compared to Outlaw

[balmy condor]

I think it’s mfd on dungeons and 2-4 and deeper on 5+ sustain

[balmy condor]

Cause outlaw’s is like half the cooldown

[compact pumice]

Well, MFD is literally half the CD on Assa

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[frail fossil]

outlaw avg mfd cd is 25sec

[balmy condor]

And outlaw still gets more uses

[frail fossil]

assa is 30sec

can go lower than 25sec tho

[balmy condor]

Restless blades is a fucking dumb ability

[frail fossil]

but on average it's 25sec

[balmy condor]

Fuck that nonsense

[frail fossil]

cringe take delete this

[balmy condor]

Cringe spec off yourself

[frail fossil]

restless blades OWNS stay mad assa andy

[compact pumice]

It's literally the thing that makes Outlaw work though

[balmy condor]

[compact pumice]

Without it it would be a dead spec

[balmy condor]

Yeah

Like combat was a dead spec

Yeppers

[shy dust]

Vanish lego are unbalanced because of restless blades

[frail fossil]

i mean u can remove it, give BTE a 20 sec cd, AR a 1min cd, MFd a 25sec cd

[shy dust]

Remove it from restless

[balmy condor]

Copium for pirate cosplayers

[cerulean burrow]

So I looked at that guide

[frail fossil]

restless blade mechanic bad because of vanish legendaries

[cerulean burrow]

I can’t seem to find if I should go master assa of subterfuge for 2 and 3 target cleave

[balmy condor]

Subterfuge on anything more than 1 target