Crimson temptest
#assassination
thorny pond
fallen arch
Cunt Tear
fallen arch
Oh its Crimson Tempest
thorny pond
fan of knives
cosmic haven
PB?
nonon i think were having a misunderstanding here
poison bomb
i know the ST talents
i mean, the ST rotation
if i have 4 CP
do i finisher?
low girder
if you're not running deeper, yeah
cosmic haven
ypi ?
thorny pond
max or max-1
cosmic haven
yes
thorny pond
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
thorny pond
Please read those
fallen arch
Unless u have ds
low girder
never mut for the 5th CP
low girder
but always finish on 4+
thorny pond
you are correct
low girder
he said he's not running DS so i didn't include that
fallen arch
Fair enough
junior pulsar
Heard a dude saying in early part of this xpansion that its bad to have to equip trinkets, cant remember his reasoning, Think he just wanted me to hand him my loot. Does he have any truth to it?
two*
stoic needle
He was full of shit
spice spire
Two can be a bit wonky, but if there bis and you can manage, it’s fine
spice spire
They’re offset by 30 seconds, so If you have 2, and they share timers it’s an oof.
But also a phial for my kingdom 
sacred isle
Pretty sure its 20 sec
final star
It's 20
feral merlin
Phial 
velvet escarp
anyone knows if pre-casting Memory of Past Sins before pulling Sludgefist works? is it recommended to do that, especially if using double on-use?
real solar
It works, but you don’t need to since your CDs are pull, 2nd, and 4th pillar
stoic needle
Yes
velvet escarp
i see, thanks. If i'm using Skulker's Wing as well do I just use that on CD too then, after the 20s (?) shared timer
real solar
Always use one of them on a pillar
velvet escarp
okay cool, thanks
late birch
Is it worth giving PI to warlock or rogue in p3 dena? with exec leggo?
compact pumice
It's not going to be wasted on them. How good it is is a more interesting question. Exact numbers on it is probably hard to get though.
late birch
yeah thats what im referring to
compact pumice
There is a sheet with some questionable numbers going around but that is more for the damage value of PI during a whole fight.
But most likely giving it to a rogue is not going to beat giving a good UH DK during Army or a MM Hunter during WS or even a mage during Combust. But it also is better used on a person that really pumps so if for some reason that mage can't do their rotation correct during P3 with all the shit going on then a rogue is probably better. So to help your raidleader make that decision you should probably start with some logs and make a case from there.
gilded belfry
Speaking of PI.. I had an odd thing happen in an M+ run yesterday. I had PI up from my friendly pug priest and went to use Cloak and it appeared to remove the buff. Anyone seen that? Is that working as intended?
stoic needle
I don't think that's actually what happened lol
gilded belfry
Perhaps. Oddest thing I ever saw. Could have been a bizarre misclick I suppose, but the timing was right on
limber lion
Yeah, that shouldn't happen.
PI is a buff and cloak doesn't interact with buffs whatsoever
cerulean nest
can someone explain the 5-bleed for prio damage idea? i've tried it during council and found that just tunnelling one boss lets me do way more damage and parse better
whats the deal
willow eagle
Council parses work a bit different - the damage counts on one of the guys you focus
So if you're focusing frieda, Stavros and nik damage won't count
cerulean nest
ah okay, that makes more sense
still either way, even with more energy to work with, i find that i spend all my time refreshing everyones bleeds rather than dumping envenoms etc. into prio
stoic needle
If you're not efficient with moving to dot the second boss then it can be a dps loss instead of a gain
rain edge
hey @limber lion you have a second to look over some more logs?
stoic needle
But maintaining garotte and rupture on the 2nd boss shouldn't be that hard. You trade one envenom on the main boss for hundreds of energy to put back into DPSing the main boss
cerulean nest
yeah I guess so. so thats it then. just a garrote and rupture on one other boss?
and thats all I should worry about?
stoic needle
Yeah, don't bother trying to dot the 3rd it takes too much time and potential loss of downtime to do more than that
You can garotte a waiter
But that's it
cerulean nest
for sure
does SBSing anything besides prio help?
i guess attendants/waiters. but i mean bosses
stoic needle
Yeah you should sbs all 3
cerulean nest
will it fall off during macabre?
cerulean nest
oh nice
stoic needle
But I could be wrong
viscid burrow
it doesnt
cerulean nest
that's super nice, okay
and then otherwise just hold sbs for gem windows and to hit max-1 CPs?
stoic needle
Just gem windows
cerulean nest
for sure
stoic needle
And don't over cap charges but if you use all 3 on the pull I doubt you'll overcap for the rest of the fight
Yeah if you have sbs keeping up rupture on the 2nd boss should be cake
cerulean nest
yeah i'll give it a go
stoic needle
Actually I think with the ability to get resets, you can use it outside of gem windows
cerulean nest
accidentally switched last night thinking it would make me do the two-week questline to change. now stuck at low renown before raid tonight lol
cerulean nest
yeah itll be fine
stoic needle
Yeah the two week questline is switching back, it's instant for the first time
proud goblet
Ma
cerulean nest
wish I would have known haha
also
i'll have enough to craft max level zold next week. you think it's worth it to have over doomblade? or should I not bother and wait for 9.1 leggos
stoic needle
Our legendaries won't change in 9.1
cerulean nest
considering we're probably stopping prog after council
oh really? thought a couple looked tantalizing
spice spire
U succ
stoic needle
But the other thing is that over the course of farming soul cinders for a llv 6 legendary you will get enough ash for another lvl 4
willow eagle
Hows the venthyr lego looking for sin?
stoic needle
Actually probably even more, since they are buffing soul ash drop amounts
stoic needle
Hows the venthyr lego looking for sin?
Bad
Like on par with duskwalkers which also isn't good
cerulean nest
does sin still seem like it'll be bis for raid 9.1? inb4 feelcraft
stoic needle
My 9.1 craft list is probably going to be something like
- Deathspike
- finality
- Akaaris
- Dashing
- Obedience
Lvl 6s:
- Doomblade or Zoldyck depending on the difficulty of certain fights
- Deathspike
- Akaaris/Finality
stoic needle
does sin still seem like it'll be bis for raid 9.1? inb4 feelcraft
Dunno tbh some of the fights look really good for sub
Like kt
stoic needle
It's going to be good if they don't nerf it
Like akaaris sub will be = doomblade sin
cerulean nest
well if its anything like 9.0 lmao
stoic needle
spice spire
odd hazel
vestal wren
subtlety
safe barn
Damn you are a loyal guy
vestal wren
i haven't seen a reason to switch away from it and i am not playing competitive enough to make the choice relevant
even tho i know some people disslike it when people play non meta and are toxic asses about it
safe barn
From what it stands today, sub might start popping off again?
I remember that sub was the best spec in the early days of SL
vestal wren
sub in 9.1 so far is probably about equal in output on pure st and possibly can compete in higher target aoe
also the damage profile for sub seems quite diffrent to assassination
so the raid design will decide what spec will be dominant
sin is historically the go-to choice due to design, but if the raid manages to give sub advantages it could end up diffrent (tho i assume it won't be)
vestal wren
I remember that sub was the best spec in the early days of SL
that was a big perception issue, sub was equal to outlaw, it was only on a few fights (mainly sludge) a straight out better pick and had some fights it was a straight out worse one (best example is huntsman).
gusty mirage
cuz sub cleave sucks balls sadly
vestal wren
people just assumed sub was super good due to bugs/tuning issues on beta
assassination also only later got relevant after some massive buffs, it was expected that it ends up on top when blizz keeped buffing it
gusty mirage
which is a weird niche for sub to be in tbh
vestal wren
problem is, sub does literally no damage to one single target in sustained high target aoe
while outlaw and sin do
safe barn
In conclusion, everything points to be exactly as they are?
vestal wren
you need to sacrafice all of your aoe more or less to do slightly more damage than outlaw to your main target
safe barn
Sin and law relevant while sub ironically is in the shadows?
vestal wren
while outlaw can just offer both strong aoe and st at the same time
gusty mirage
I mean sub's fine now, it just needs a little love to put it more in line with assa/outlaw
vestal wren
things point to the usual meta
gusty mirage
just really boils down to what your definition of fine is
vestal wren
sin as the prefered choice
sub on fights that fit well to cooldowns
outlaw on fights that its unique strenghs play well with
gusty mirage
like it's definitely not survival hunter level
kind talon
secret tech just needs to be good
safe barn
I dont know the usual meta, stopped playing in legion 
kind talon
and its fine
vestal wren
the sub buff put it in a rly strong position
vestal wren
so i guess in a definition to "is there a reason to bring a rogue (sub or assa)", there is atm one dps wise
however not all systems on ptr are reviewed and tuned
kind talon
SecTech is like
safe barn
There are some talks about smoke bomb
vestal wren
so blizz can at any time just make a ranged class outdo rogue in dps
gusty mirage
same w/ assa, CT should be baseline
vestal wren
at that point, rogue goes back to not being as relevant
i don't mind having weaknesses tbh
it makes changing specs relevant
gusty mirage
yeah I see what you're saying
safe barn
I do cuz i see classes like pally and cant see a weakness there
vestal wren
problem only comes down to other specs or classes covering "all fronts" without having clear weaknesses
gusty mirage
but I guess the frustrating part is we don't have the leniency that some other classes do
gusty mirage
and freedom
vestal wren
we likely get smoke bomb back
gusty mirage
and LoH
hollow dirge
There are some talks about smoke bomb
Actually, it will likely not be smoke bomb but something else . They feel like we have already plenty of similar cds
safe barn
Have you seen their dps?
kind talon
true LoH do smack
safe barn
On top of utilities
vestal wren
what could mean that dk/dh/rogue all 3 have a similar raid cooldown that possibly could be stacked
gusty mirage
what's interesting is the possible nerf to AMZ coming
I hope they don't make it irrelevant
vestal wren
dh seems to still be straight out better because you get aoe control, darkness and the magic damage amp
safe barn
Make smoke bomb like darkness to give the raid a choice idk
gusty mirage
I think neat utility would be like the anima power for tricks, where the target gets 15% dodge for the duration
safe barn
Still not enough I think
vestal wren
dodge is rarely usefull
hollow dirge
Make smoke bomb like darkness to give the raid a choice idk
I was hoping for that, but Ion’s answer to preach did not seem like they’re considering smoke bomb.
I would not be surprised if it’s not a defensive cd , but maybe something in offensive lineup
thorny pond
For it to be a bring over other specs, it needs some sort of raid wide utility
vestal wren
i don't think that blizz will go overboard with smoke bomb
gusty mirage
or even a flat DR %
hollow dirge
I think neat utility would be like the anima power for tricks, where the target ...
Great idea actually
gusty mirage
tricks gives the tank 10% DR for 6s
vestal wren
i am realistic so i assume it will be in the ballpark of other similar effects in terms of migration
gusty mirage
that'd be huge
safe barn
I was hoping for that, but Ion’s answer to preach did not seem like they’re cons...
Im getting that from sloots interview with the dev
gusty mirage
they have options of giving us utility without smoke bomb, they just never bothered lol
safe barn
Its like the 2nd time that an official interview mentions rogues and smokebomb
gusty mirage
and the utility we had they took away, it's confusing
vestal wren
smoke bomb is the "easy fix" and rogue is often the "easy fix king"
so i don't think we will see a change in strategy from blizz
safe barn
But idk if that is coming in 9.1 i Hope so
hollow dirge
smoke bomb is the "easy fix" and rogue is often the "easy fix king"
Not so easy, if you consider pvp
thorny pond
Just give us a smoke bomb that can either buff damage by 5% for anyone in it or give is a DR smoke bomb
gusty mirage
idk if they'll actually use smoke bomb they seem deadset on the smoke bomb being a pvp talent
hollow dirge
idk if they'll actually use smoke bomb they seem deadset on the smoke bomb being...
That’s why I think it’s not going to be smoke
vestal wren
Not so easy, if you consider pvp
pvp has a system in place that allowes blizz to change both seperately
safe barn
Not so easy, if you consider pvp
Dont pvp and pve behave in different layers?
thorny pond
idk if they'll actually use smoke bomb they seem deadset on the smoke bomb being...
Let us apply deadly poison to everyone's weapons so we can replace oils/stone kek
gusty mirage
lmao
vestal wren
also i rly don't want to go from a reaid/pve centric discussion into a pvp discussion
hollow dirge
Sure , just saying, there are even easier fixes
gusty mirage
I have a feeling we won't see anything until 9.1.5 in terms of raid utility, unless the predictions of an end of july 9.1 are true
hollow dirge
Say , 7% dmg buff to everyone after shroud ends
limber swallow
I miss dismantle, even though it was largely a PVP benefit, it had some pretty niche uses in raiding / dungeons as another way to save your tank from getting wrecked
hollow dirge
Easy af, would make us desirable
gusty mirage
tbh the other classes would QQ so hard if that became a thing
vestal wren
i don't think that blizz wants to make utility a dps cooldown
gusty mirage
"OMG THEY GET GROUP INVIS AND A DAMAGE BUFF FROM IT?"
safe barn
Say , 7% dmg buff to everyone after shroud ends
We would have to save vanish to use it midfight
vestal wren
the "shroud gives dps" idea does sound bad
gusty mirage
can't shroud people in combat though
balmy condor
Yeah that shroud damage sounds awful
short hamlet
Shroud damage would be considered OP in M+
vestal wren
if anything then just give the damage amp to tott
hollow dirge
the "shroud gives dps" idea does sound bad
Agreed, I just said so becouse its and even easier fix
loud light
laughing because that was the example of the "easy fix"
safe barn
Its not like we havent seen the smoke bomb
short hamlet
That said Blizz doesn't really care much about M+ so maybe itll happen
vestal wren
that is a very easy solution to make rogue desireable
short hamlet
safe barn
I dont know if blizz is holding back on smoke bomb cuz hunters might ask fox and druid that cd too
thorny pond
Its not like we havent seen the smoke bomb
"Darkness" Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, Rename: "Smoke Bomb (PvE)"
loud light
they're probably trying to think of something creative like the way they're going with priest's symbol of hope
hollow dirge
I dont know if blizz is holding back on smoke bomb cuz hunters might ask fox and...
But hunters have great utility already. They can ask for anything though, they always liked them😂
simple wadi
In before they give us a legendary that makes tricks give dps and we become simps like priests
gusty mirage
if we end up getting a CDR spell I'd actually tilt
vestal wren
the 3 easy ideas:
#1 smoke bomb
#2 damage amp for tott
#3 something with poisons
loud light
<:copium:778324095753650196>
I mean, don't get me wrong, it'll probably be bad
vestal wren
if they want to be creative they need to go outside of that
safe barn
We need a CEO that plays rogue
thorny pond
Or just let Mindnumbing and Crippling offer Magic or Physical DR so monks/DH aren't mandatory
vestal wren
tbh i think poisons could be re-visited
safe barn
Is there a rogue in ion's prog?
kind talon
honestly
limber swallow
probably named infexxious
gusty mirage
OOF
kind talon
Is there a rogue in ion's prog?
yes there is
safe barn
Or just let Mindnumbing and Crippling offer Magic or Physical DR so monks/DH are...
That they wont do
gusty mirage
it actually feels bad that we NEED a DH of some sort
safe barn
They already said that they dont want to give everyone raid buffs
gusty mirage
for the magic damage amp
safe barn
I dont mind a DH tank
vestal wren
i mean, if we strictly talk about game design i would spread raid buffs out more so that multiple classes can provide those
lowering the "nessecery" raid slots does sound like a good idea
safe barn
I would too but its not their mindset right now
gusty mirage
whatever happened to the "bring the player not the class" bullshit Ion was touting all of Bfa?
remove scrolls 
kind talon
sucks to suck i guess
limber swallow
wasn't that GC?
vestal wren
blizz changed direction
safe barn
What did scrolls do?
vestal wren
the new motto is "a good player will bring the right class"
thorny pond
Provide buffs
vestal wren
and its also what limit max did say
gusty mirage
gave you baby versions of int buff, warrior buff, and fort buff
vestal wren
if you are a good player, you will always play the best class
gusty mirage
yeah something like that @kind talon
so like if you didn't have a warrior, you were still okay
gusty mirage
just a lot of confusing changes into SL, the biggest being the fish feast no longer working in m+ lol
kind talon
u still had to take warrior priest change
vestal wren
the game long changed away from "play what you like to the best to your ability"
nerfing scrolls/drumms/etc just emphasizes the differences and makes you want to bring the class instead
gusty mirage
which sucks because I'm an above average rogue player and I can't multi-class really well
gusty mirage
yeah I don't think I can gear up multiple toons like that
safe barn
The problem is: i dont like playing other classes
vestal wren
you can just like ashine, bring sub optimal classes to the wfr
but keep in mind ashine also plays pvp on very high rating and compatitive m+ (mdi)
seli iirc also outwights the deficits of the class with time investment
so, if you create a uneven balance of power, you can play even sub optimal
gusty mirage
tbh if I had the time to gear up multiple toons like I was in 8.3 (thanks quarantine) I think I could multi-class
thorny pond
I got pigeonholed into DH this tier until recently, so I get it
vestal wren
the discussion differs if we assume that most people in the guild can spend the same amount of time into the game or play on similar level
frosty aspen
Sorry, just a couple of questions relating to Sire M fight P2
- Flag -> if I throw my flag on Sire but have to swap targets briefly i.e. get poisons up on adds, do I miss out on anything dps wise or do I need to spend combo points on the lashed target to get the additional damage (I might be completely misunderstanding the ability)?
- In P2, to maximise overall dps, should I prioritise always on getting all bleeds up on all adds and focus on maintaining them or say, get rupture up on 2 and smash out envenoms in the priority target?
gusty mirage
Sorry, just a couple of questions relating to Sire M fight P2
1. Flag -> if I t...
any cp spent count toward flag stacks
as for part 2 I'll leave that to someone who's smarter than me :3
spice spire
Part two depends on how quick adds go down. At that point I would think keeping bleeds up + smashing envenoms on prio is the play
frosty aspen
any cp spent count toward flag stacks
ok so if i understand, i can spend cps on a target that is not lashed and the flag stacks still increase.
gusty mirage
yep!
steel geyser
yes
gusty mirage
even SnD refresh counts
frosty aspen
Part two depends on how quick adds go down. At that point I would think keeping ...
this assumes the target survives the full duration
cheers oxi and antok
gusty mirage
np 
spice spire
Sure, you can also drop a lesser rupture if it’s about to die. It keeps energy regen up which is important for strong damage profile
steel geyser
If ur progressing on Sire I would not bother to maximise ur add dps because others classes are better for this job while you could focus on nuking denathrius.
But if ur trying to parse yea, apply bleeds and pray you don't have others ppl trying to parse too with better aoe specs.
It alls depends on ur roster, you might lack adds dps
frosty aspen
i agree. if we lack daddy dmg, ill just keep bleeds up on ramornia and sire
steel geyser
But don't forget what sin is good at => nuking ST. Sire P2 is not very optimal for us with a lot of target swaping and target not living for very long
spice spire
Our cleave is also extremely potent though.
Just keeping bleeds and slamming prio is also valid
steel geyser
ofc
balmy condor
sin p2 damage is actually quite high
spice spire
Ur quite high
balmy condor
gusty mirage
he might have to be for council prog tonight
frosty aspen
when we got Sire, Ramornia and Crimson adds up, FoK is the way to gain CPs right?
steel geyser
cabalist are never living more than 10sec for the slower ones same of big adds we kill them with half the time remaining before the grab, kinda hard to get high bleed dmg on this situations.
balmy condor
when we got Sire, Ramornia and Crimson adds up, FoK is the way to gain CPs right...
yes, fok on 4
steel geyser
But I guess there are multiple ways of doing Sire P2, we're doing the limit way with always full raid dmg same adds at the same time, the echo way with spliting raid on adds might benefit for sin for sure
spice spire
Same for my comp, it’s just rupture, step rupture, focus prio on boss for me
stoic needle
Sin and law relevant while sub ironically is in the shadows?
I don't think so, because the only reason Sub's in the shadows right now is that it's single target isn't close to sin. With the buffs it will be close and people will play what they like or what fits best
stoic needle
ret is bad too tho
Ret does kinda huge dam tho
kind talon
i mean ye
obvi
and they have more util
but they are in a situation kinda similar to assa imo
however, hpal is kinda cracked anyways
north mason
Speaking about danny, CT over PB is always the play ? even progress wise / stat wise ?
balmy condor
yeh seems like it
alpine latch
I've just never liked Sub. I hope it doesn't take our our best spec for raid.
safe barn
I don't think so, because the only reason Sub's in the shadows right now is that...
Downtime is really punishing for sub, more than us, idk
simple wadi
maybe its being necro - but I slam sire P2
SBS --> rupture on everything and can keep priority on sire/remornia
halcyon zealot
yeah even as venthyr, i’m top p2 dmg during prog rn, by a lot
ret pally gives me a run for my money some pulls but that’s it
hot chasm
Do we save dmg trinkets fro pillars on sludge? skulkers etc
stoic needle
Downtime is really punishing for sub, more than us, idk
Yeah but also just like... Git gud lmao
That's why I say it'll be down to preference
Good players can play around downtime and do good damage
It's punishing for us too because our damage is so heavily weighted by melee and poison procs
This idea that assassination isn't impacted by downtime is a bit of a myth imo
gusty mirage
no one said that
assa loses less for downtime than the other 2
which is inherently true
royal lantern
Ret does kinda huge dam tho
ye, people love too shit on ret
but like
it DOES really good dmg rn
st/cleave and aoe
limber lion
But don't forget what sin is good at => nuking ST. Sire P2 is not very optimal f...
Assa is like the best spec in the game for P2 lol
royal lantern
the main problem is just: why bring them when hpaladin has the same/better utility, and mage/druid/lock are ranged with even more dmg
hollow escarp
always show me 
ionic kelp
hollow escarp
only depends on how you look at it
stoic needle
no one said that
People do say that though. All we have is garotte and deadly poison, sub has rupture too. I'm not saying it isn't decent with some downtime cuz we definitely are. But the idea that sub is unplayable if you get mechanics is just as much of a myth
lavish grove
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
spice spire
Bleeds for progression is copium
blissful juniper
Does it look like Venthyr will be the best for ST in 9.1?
kind talon
CT is best in phase 2
hollow escarp
yeah
kind talon
Poggers champers
hollow escarp
I've also checked a few top logs and all of them have similar P3 damage with each of the last row talents
kind talon
Yep
hollow escarp
only checked necrolords though
hazy crater
P2 damage with CT 
fleet anchor
This idea that assassination isn't impacted by downtime is a bit of a myth imo
Assassination is not impacted very much by brief downtime unless it's during lust
limber lion
I'm Venthyr again :)
fleet anchor
Assassination is at least one of the few specs that can resource dump and basically only lose AA damage if you have to run out for some mechanic for a few seconds
Most melee specs these days are GCD locked
fading adder
does zoldyk buff the dot damage from SBS?
hollow escarp
yes
limber lion
Yes.
fading adder
Thanks gang
fleet anchor
Sub is so locked into its CDR and Shadow Dance cycle that downtime is really troublesome
limber lion
Even more in 9.1 if things stay the way they are now
fleet anchor
So sure, Assassination definitely is affected by downtime
But far less than average for melee
gusty mirage
I'm Venthyr again :)
kind talon
I'm Venthyr again :)
Venthyr = Virgin bro
quaint carbon
how much haste is too much haste for assa raid ?
spice spire
Venthyr = Virgin bro
i think its hilarious u kids talking shit about @limber lion . u wouldnt say this shit to him at lan, hes jacked. not only that but he wears the freshest clothes, eats at the chillest restaurants and hangs out with the hottest dudes. yall are pathetic lol
spice spire
how much haste is too much haste for assa raid ?
No such thing, you probably have a stat that you’ll want more of at some point, but you just sim for upgrades tbh
steel geyser
Assa is like the best spec in the game for P2 lol
Explain pls, my adds are dying wayy too quick :(
doting remornia doesnt really compete with other cleaves on my raid set up
kind talon
U press Crimson Tempest and bleed everything
pure bridge
^ you do 7.5-8k in p2
steel geyser
Yea Im not playing CT
pure bridge
Ct really isnt a dps loss in p3 either, I still did 6.3k on my guilds last kill.
stoic needle
Well that's your problem, ct is insane
balmy condor
Yea Im not playing CT
you probably should
fleet anchor
I mean Assassination should basically top Remornia+Sire damage in P2 even if you aren't doing much to the adds (which you can do as well even without CT)
steel geyser
even with adds that dies in a few seconds ?
stoic needle
But far less than average for melee
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I didn't consider the dumping of resources combined with the slow resource regeneration rate especially on st
fleet anchor
Only people that beat me on boss damage in P2 are Warlocks
And even that's borderline
Even on my pulls without CT
stoic needle
even with adds that dies in a few seconds ?
A 2-3cp rupture should last most of their lifespan and give you more energy to put into the boss
kind talon
Not even warlocks
Beat me
Only person that beat me was another rogue
But they were using doomblades
So they can go fuck themselves
fleet anchor
Good Warlocks can do it but it depends on both where you and the Warlocks are allocating cooldowns
gusty mirage
Only person that beat me was another rogue
you cleared m sire and you wanted to join my guild?
kind talon
Not cleared
gusty mirage
sorry
kind talon
Just talking about p2 damage
gusty mirage
you ATTEMPTED
kind talon
I’m progging tonight idiot
fleet anchor
Warlocks don't even come close to P2 damage, I'm talking about P2 boss damage only (Remornia+Sire)
gusty mirage
come wipe with me on council (:
kind talon
Stop giving me bad vibes oxi
fleet anchor
Warlocks should be super high on boss damage if they are doing it right
gusty mirage
Stop giving me bad vibes oxi
I don't think I appreciate your tone 
gusty mirage
I'm just a 6/10 shitter leave me ALONE 
kind talon
No
fleet anchor
With CT I'm pretty much equal with the Warlocks on boss damage although I destroy them in overall
kind talon
I’m will booli you
kind talon
With CT I'm pretty much equal with the Warlocks on boss damage although I destro...
Pretty sure CT is an increase in boss damage on p2?
fleet anchor
Yes that's why I'm saying with CT
Without CT I don't really think I can beat Warlocks
If they are doing it right
kind talon
Ya
fleet anchor
But Rogues should still be like
fleet anchor
Top 3 boss damage even without CT in P2
kind talon
The 2 other rogues in my prog
steel geyser
Because I'm not trying to parse and my raid kills adds already way too fast
kind talon
Have a stick up their ass
nimble tartan
i played ct for the first time last week and did the worst dps i eva done in 6 kills 😆😆
steel geyser
We sometimes get to boostt 1 customer so I focus on P3 damage
fleet anchor
I mean I think CT is fine for Sire but it doesn't really matter
nimble tartan
everyone blasted everything cabalists dead insta
fleet anchor
It won't change anything about the fight that matters
nimble tartan
i was like cmon bro the one time i do it
kind talon
Ya true
nimble tartan
we 1 shot it too so i didnt get to ramp up how it feels
nimble tartan
👀
fleet anchor
But I was mostly just responding to this anyway
And saying that Assassination is basically a top spec in P2, CT or not
Sire+Remornia damage should always be top-tier
If you care about "overall" and comparing to cleave specs, go CT and you'll beat them to
If you don't, you should be fine to beat most everyone on boss damage anyway
drifting cloud
just sounds like excuses for poor play
steel geyser
I am for sure top dps on sire i was answering to someone that was proging sire
drifting cloud
ive played almost every combo possible on sire
plain thistle
assa is one of the best P2 damage for sure, on mythic sire
drifting cloud
pb,ct,hb doom/zold
fleet anchor
I'd argue Assassination is maybe the best overall spec on Sire in general, as long as you have a couple burst AoE specs for P1
drifting cloud
doing 1.2 in last phase with literally any of them, the rest just depends on kill timer mostly
pure bridge
1.2 sounds like you afk'd.
fleet anchor
lol
plain thistle
1.2m damage is good, thats like 6k-6.1k dps ish
drifting cloud
atleast*, I have 1.4 on a 40k wipe if that counts
fleet anchor
Yeah I mean over 6k DPS is pretty standard for high end on P3
Should be a reasonable target for most geared
Somewhere like 5.7-6.2k range
depending on kill timings and lust
pure bridge
atleast*, I have 1.4 on a 40k wipe if that counts
gotcha, I was thinking dps not raw damage total. Same 1.1. to 1.2m is about where rogues should end up.
limber lion
I do 6.3 with EP Vig CT and Doomy
You should be getting a lot more if you gear for p3
drifting cloud
boss sometimes dies before my 2nd set of cds is over
plain thistle
hmmm, you should always get 2 vendettas in P3
fleet anchor
With Zoldyck can maybe get a bit more yeah, I dunno what my peak is
limber lion
Hate to see people blasting
fleet anchor
But high 5k-low 6k is pretty normal anyway
limber lion
With Zoldyck can maybe get a bit more yeah, I dunno what my peak is
I did some silly Sire P3 sims
pure bridge
Yeah I pop my last vandetta around the 9:35ish mark or whatever that last blood price is.
fleet anchor
Yeah definitely looked into Sire sims
drifting cloud
I get 2, the 2nd one just might not be full duration depending on timer since I do 2 in p2 aswell
and it can be close depending how you transition
fleet anchor
Zoldyck is a few percent higher for sure, but I mostly run Doomblade anyway
Just not enough motivation to swap lol
I have to consider the fact that I have no decent gloves either haha
plain thistle
same, I just run with doomblade for everything
limber lion
I simmed every combination on my Sire sim and Necro with DS BS CT with Zoldy won, not accounting for the SBS bug either
plain thistle
and I run EP-vigor, changing to CT for some bosses
limber lion
Yeh, Doomblade is great.
plain thistle
too lazy to change anything at this stage of the patch
limber lion
P3 damage checks shouldn't be a problem if you've killed it a few times
And people are actuslly focusing on it and not just doing it on auto-pilot
steel geyser
how is CT that good on st ?
drifting cloud
yeah like im still playing for p3 im just not gonna gimp myself for 100 more p3 dps when we have people that probably havent hit 1mil in p3 ever
plain thistle
how is CT that good on st ?
its not
limber lion
It gains value from Zoldyck and doesn't suffer from movement, but it's still worse than PB on a patchwork fight.
frail fossil
CT is rly good in ST for an aoe talent
plain thistle
for sure, but its not good for ST when you have the option to pick PB
fleet anchor
CT is basically just over a 1% DPS loss in ST
It's quite close considering it's a massive AoE gain
frail fossil
i think antok meant CT is really good for an aoe talent, not that it's better than PB
CT is insane
fleet anchor
Eventually we should get to enough Haste that CT is just default anyway
limber lion
Yup
fleet anchor
Probably by the end of the next tier at this rate
I do think CT should be baseline though
drifting cloud
you think so
frail fossil
i dont think so
drifting cloud
for the haste not baseline 😄
drifting cloud
like secondaries dont scale with ilvl at all
isnt 30 ilvl like 15more secondaries
frail fossil
so u take CT in dungeon and take a decent talent not boring like PB in ST
fleet anchor
Yeah but lots of borrowed power bullshit coming anyway with the gems and stuff
drifting cloud
and alot of that is offset by even the 1st decay rate
oh right I havent really looked at the gems at all
fleet anchor
Lots of things they could do to make PB a bit better but like
drifting cloud
100 talent row has sucked for 2xpacs, maybe next one
pure bridge
Guaranteed PB would be fun
fleet anchor
I do honestly feel CP specs should always have an AoE finisher
By default
It's dumb to have to talent it
Having to talent into being able to do the same AoE as everyone else is 🤔
limber lion
Sub got BP, give us CT.
stable moss
would be cool if PB had %chance per combo point
balmy condor
would be cool if PB had %chance per combo point
kind talon
stable moss
i meant as more %
kind talon
Holy fuck that was funny lmaoooo
stable moss
lmao
kind talon
Bro it would be so sick if mutilate hit twice
stable moss
imagine if it was 50 % at full combos
fleet anchor
But anyway, even if CT doesn't quite catch up for ST immediately
It's more than close enough to just use without much hesitation on any AoE fight
Not like you are giving up that much
If you were losing like 5% or something for AoE then you might think about it
But 1%? whatever
Going EP over Blindside is actually way more of a ST loss than going CT over PB haha
At least at current regen levels
That'll change too though
Blindside will probably be down to only like +0.3% or something
At next tier ilevel
drifting cloud
also same time I irrationally hate bs proc during ma
but yeah lets hope necro shits on venth next tier
even tho I kinda doubt
the difference is small but I care just enough to swap between them every month
gusty mirage
the necro leggo looks stupid good, esp for m+
drifting cloud
yeah the interns dont have time to balance rogue worst cov I think
got more important stuff to do with how delayed everything is
thorny pond
"Oh mastery is now our best stat and we need to use forgelite for some stupid interaction."
fleet anchor
Hard to make Kyrian really good for Assassination without being kinda broken for Outlaw
cerulean nest
necro m+ soulbind build for sin?
gusty mirage
heimer w/ sudden fractures + gemstones
cerulean nest
ah so same as ST
gusty mirage
yea
cerulean nest
sweet
stoic needle
Emeni if you have another melee dps in the group
cerulean nest
sad that necro is 150 dps behind venth on ST
stoic needle
It's not
gusty mirage
I think its closer now
stoic needle
It's like 60-80
copper sun
On mythic sire if i cloak massacre do i get the dot?
balmy condor
you can cloak it during p2, but not p3
copper sun
Oh, why not?
balmy condor
idk ask blizzard
copper sun
I mean whats the actual reason you cant cloak it in p3?
balmy condor
because it doesn't work?
copper sun
You take the damage? or just get the dot?
balmy condor
both
copper sun
i see, fair enough, do you know if you get the dot on p2 if you soak it?
balmy condor
shouldn't
plucky briar
what's the best lego for 2-3 targets for sin? still doomblade?
copper sun
ok cheers
balmy condor
what's the best lego for 2-3 targets for sin? still doomblade?
2 is doom, 3 is zold
cerulean nest
It's like 60-80
can you tell what I'm doing wrong here? i was sitting over 7k dps when I was venth
subtle tundra
145 conduit
balmy condor
sire, venari
gusty mirage
venari or sire
kind talon
Sire
gusty mirage
I love the venari conduit gamble
gusty mirage
so great for the game, ty blizz
cerulean nest
sire it is
gusty mirage
buy the gamble item, it's unique so you can only have 1, then go back to your sanctum for a 213 lethal poisons
stoic needle
i refuse to do the gamble
gusty mirage
stoic needle
so i sit as a sub 7k simmer 
slender trail
are other's optimal dungeon slice sims within 100 dps of their optimal st sim? it's crazy to think all of the extra multi dotting and management amounts to such a small gain
balmy condor
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mny8ZHNsc83427arCfPt61
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wvL7KV2aJdr3uYpvjeJdci equipped is necro with 200, top is venth with 200
stoic needle
dammit whispyr beat me to it
balmy condor
beating you is my favorite past time mr mastery
stoic needle
beating you is my favorite past time mr mastery
warped temple
we love whispyr
gusty mirage
@warped temple I beat a fire mage and outlaw rogue in an 18 sanguine yesterday, are you proud of me?
warped temple
NICE! keep em all downnnn
stoic needle
i've got the mastery for aoe
gusty mirage
now my goal is to beat whispyr's IO and maybe finally finish a season ahead of him on the a52 assa leaderboards
slender trail
what was your overall oxi?
gusty mirage
1798 overalll, 1544 assa
slender trail
dps*
kind talon
6k
warped temple
big 7k gamer! nice 🙂
kind talon
Pogger
slender trail
necro?
stoic needle
wow oxi out here gaming
gusty mirage
^^^
slender trail
are you necro?
balmy condor
are other's optimal dungeon slice sims within 100 dps of their optimal st sim? ...
100 doesn't seem very optimal
kind talon
Yes
gusty mirage
yeppers
slender trail
nice. i somehow did a 7.2k mists as venth sin the other day
stoic needle
are other's optimal dungeon slice sims within 100 dps of their optimal st sim? ...
my dungeon slice sim is ~700 dps over my ST sim
gusty mirage
I could probably eek out 100-200 more dps if I stopped refreshing ruptures early
slender trail
but normally end up in the mid 6s
stoic needle
slender trail
100 doesn't seem very optimal
agree. maybe it's my soulbind. i'll mess around
gusty mirage
SBS ended up being about 1 million damage in that run w/ sudden fractures
stoic needle
dungeon slice
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kD8Bcg9288V6yFZyZ6tk6V @cerulean nest almost 7k sim 
whispyr may be faster but i got you higher 
stoic needle
stoic needle
cerulean nest
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kD8Bcg9288V6yFZyZ6tk6V <@!336346492321267...
😉
idk how honestly lol
kind talon
The osh Whispyr rivalry is bis
balmy condor
is it really a rivalry if it's just osh being annoying and me telling him to stfu constantly
stoic needle
*whispyr being toxic and stifling the innovation of a budding TCer
kind talon
“Hey guys did the 9.1 mastery sims come out yet”
gusty mirage
is it really a rivalry if it's just osh being annoying and me telling him to stf...
reminds me of @rigid mango telling me to stfu constantly in bfa 
kind talon
Imagine if oshosi got access to the apl
stoic needle
if i knew how to edit the apl well i'd do the NS deeper deathspike thing i've been thinking about
kind talon
P sure changes have to be confirmed no
stoic needle
but i'm a monkey
kind talon
Me too bro 😎
balmy condor
changes do have to be confirmed
kind talon
🦧
balmy condor
or else every dipshit could just troll the apl
balmy condor
if i knew how to edit the apl well i'd do the NS deeper deathspike thing i've be...
whats the idea
stoic needle
running NS + deeper stratagem + deathspike for dungeon slice, it needs a custom way to hold 6cp at the end of packs to open with CT from stealth
balmy condor
aha
kind talon
balmy condor
fine I'll hard code it
stoic needle
got this from ptr vault
wispy hazel
How close are necroband venthyr for sin rogue
subtle tundra
necroband
stoic needle
How close are necroband venthyr for sin rogue
within 80 or less dps
on st
quite a bit of a gap in aoe
wispy hazel
Like necro better for aoe?
stoic needle
yes
dawn ivy
thin imp
Hi! About to start progress in sludgefist, any tip?
kind talon
Hi! About to start progress in sludgefist, any tip?
dont die
thin imp
yea that's an easy one
stoic needle
sin rogue will be good
sub will probably also be decent
who knows about outlaw since they don't get a max ilvl wep
probably fine tho
thin imp
ty @gwookey about what I had in mind
limber swallow
c'mon, combat daggers is a thing, right?
strange python
how do fights look for 9.1, are they all pretty obvious where outlaw/assa will be better?
assuming things are relatively the same as they are in 9.0 for both specs
stoic needle
no not really obvious yet
its close enough that something like the domination sockets or whatever being better for one spec than the other could throw things off
strange python
I'm basically forced to play assa now but I've only really been playing it since this week and it seems pretty fun so far :D
hollow escarp
there are quite a few cleave fights so outlaw shouldn't be bad if we only consider the info we have now
hollow escarp
but a midpatch change can turn everything over, sin rogue went from poop to best single target melee in 9.0.5
balmy condor
but depending on situation probably fine to do in reality
pale fossil
hollow escarp
I love Blizzard 
kind talon
hollow escarp
I bet they read this chat
I've seen the cut the chase idea being brought by many people
but I found out after they implemented it that we had it in the past
hollow escarp
apparently yes
kind talon
LOL
hollow escarp
I haven't personally checked wowpedia, but I've seen people talking about it here
low girder
but a midpatch change can turn everything over, sin rogue went from poop to best...
one more addition from the actual patch
lmao
hollow escarp
I think that buff killed my guild
low girder
god i hate blizz sometimes
hollow escarp
because a very influential ele was always top 1-4 damage after that and he kinda took 4 more raiders with him
kind talon
proggers
hollow escarp
when he left 
low girder
rip
hollow escarp
yeah but I cheated
stoic needle
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sGSTcLTbDkEpGFRpmg1z8L yeah it aint looking too good for my NS deeper deathspike idea
hollow escarp
about this, there was a reddit post about ele shamans complaining about the lava burst nerf, totally ignoring the buffs
low girder
yep
much like i'm sure the warlocks were pissed at the malefic rapture nerf before they even read the other stuff
hollow escarp
I mean, this chat was also salty about the vw nerf
low girder
wasn't it buffed
low girder
oh
low girder
yeah
stoic needle
it looked like it was a loss at first because of the snd energy removal
hollow escarp
can't remember
stoic needle
it got added after
hollow escarp
anyway, it was a rollercoaster
stoic needle
at first it was just removed
hollow escarp
from doomers to mooners
low girder
sorta like the 9.0.5 thing where the datamine never showed the shadow tech buff for sub
so we just saw backstab buff
and were like ??????????????
hollow escarp
yeah, most stuff was datamined before official patch notes
and nobody catched the +1 energy on PTR
for some reason
low girder
0.4% 
compact pumice
What's the fix?
shy dust
balmy condor
What's the fix?
specifically if you're running IQD, and you disabled the execute, the sim continues to fail to recognize that IQD is a stat trinket, and thus won't sync it with vendetta on the second cast
I told @fleet anchor about it a couple times
but uh
yeah
shy dust
My BiS trinket continues to rise
compact pumice
Ahh
devout shard
should i line up flag and vendetta in m+ or no?
slow helm
how bad is deathly shadows in m+? 🙂
stoic needle
how bad is deathly shadows in m+? 🙂
actually complete and utter dogshit
it's not even a "haha within ~1% dps so its preference"
it's just bad
outer oak
What is the purpose of pooling 80 energy before envenom?
I'm just leveling my rogue and see it said consistently that its best to pool
thorny pond
What is the purpose of pooling 80 energy before envenom?
More envenoms
It benefits from itself and shiv specifically
slow helm
@stoic needle my gear isnt that optimised yet just started my rogue again but its not that far in sim for me https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nc3iUFg4uqTxBMnmjZvstv
fuck i simmed patchwerk
sec
outer oak
Ahh ok I was just curious since I just wanted a fun alt a bit more simple than lock
thorny pond
Ahh ok I was just curious since I just wanted a fun alt a bit more simple than l...
Sin Rogue is super simple
We're mathletes here. Not esport jocks
slow helm
oh okay so now its 189 dps loss hmm sadge looks like it could be fun with a aoe dps cooldown
slow helm
whats the top stats for aoe? is crit vers still the best cuz of fan of knifes or is crit mastery better now for bleeds?
thorny pond
Typically critical mastery but all are close. Sim yourself
slow helm
everything is basicly simming the same doesnt help me that much ngl xD
pale fossil
Then sim on Droptimizer and see what pieces are the biggest upgrades for you.
That'll tell you what to prioritize.
neat pulsar
hey, why is sin simming so low on wow progress ? Sub and and outlaw sim 700 dps above in patchwerk lol
plain thistle
wowprogress does a 7 or 8 min sim
not sure what other parameters they use
old version as well
neat pulsar
i think they don't use raid buffs and food/BL
their sim is using older versions of the game ?
plain thistle
old version of simc
neat pulsar
ok then it might make sense
plain thistle
which means assa should sims a little bit lower
because all the buffs we got was probably after January
neat pulsar
yes in january assa was still very low tier
well feelsbad, I am 6.8k on raidbot, and only 5.5k on wow progress x) it's saying i am the lowest dps from my guild lol
slender urchin
Anyone have a sweet plater template to play with?
balmy condor
Anyone have a sweet plater template to play with?
https://wago.io/t6bI_B9wi is mine
stoic needle
Anyone have a sweet plater template to play with?
https://wago.io/0xB3yNIxB here's mine with SBS nameplate coloring
timber basalt
@stoic needle any idea if that's possible on elvui nameplates?
uneven plume
is it normal for my necro sin rogue simming only-30 dps away from venthyr?
stoic needle
yes
kind talon
Yes
kind talon
No
slender urchin
Thank you 🙂
uneven plume
i see
stoic needle
<@!502859708504342538> my gear isnt that optimised yet just started my rogue aga...
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5RcJzAsbJGqpxJ2FaHVTBP it's pretty bad for you
stoic needle
for aoe it's crit > mastery = haste > vers
slow helm
when i look at ryfie's gear he is mainly wearing crit > vers=mastery > haste from what i can see
i never understood why people want haste in aoe?
low girder
Link to this?
kind talon
i never understood why people want haste in aoe?
Dots
carmine token
Oh oh oh
kind talon
CT
waxen cloak
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
kind talon
Rupture and Garrote
slow helm
but isnt mastery basicly doing the same just more damage insted of tick rate?
low girder
it's an old post, i just meme the fuck out of it because of that little statement
slow helm
and you dont need the energy reg in aoe you have bleeds on multiple targets to gen for you
kind talon
Because even in m+ which is the most aoe content available
stoic needle
technically haste is worse than mastery in aoe, but you don't drop all haste because aoe fights and keys still have some st
kind talon
It’s not always sustained cleave
bleak sky
did you all prog on SLG with zoldyck's or doomblade?
kind talon
Yeah what osh said pretty much
stoic needle
zoldyck
kind talon
Zoldyck
stoic needle
when i look at ryfie's gear he is mainly wearing crit > vers=mastery > haste fro...
ryfie prioritizes vers because the damage reduction is valuable in high keys
i can't speak to his situation specifically but a lot of people just equip what sims best
slow helm
well vers damage reduction is amazing in high keys but its also a flat damage increase in all situations and not just bleeds and poisons, so i cant see why you would ever go haste over vers in m+ scenarios but that might just be me being stupid
stoic needle
because M+ has bosses
slow helm
well just because it got 3-5 bosses would you then focus on single target priorities over aoe in a add week for an example?
kind talon
Bro it really depends
bleak sky
technically haste is worse than mastery in aoe, but you don't drop all haste bec...
but aren't you the mastery king
kind talon
But haste makes all ur bleed and poison do damage faster
stoic needle
gearing haste over vers isn't focusing single target priorities though, especially since you're focusing on crit and mastery
kind talon
It’s not just more energy
stoic needle
and your autos too
you could say Crit > mastery > haste = vers if you want but like it really doesnt matter
like these are my stat weights for example in dslice and i have fairly decent gear https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ocQWqqBsVYvEz2cAUnuaFx the only reason crit is the lowest is because i have a ton of crit on my gear from being venth
slow helm
that makes alot more sence in my head tbh saying haste is stronger just cuz of tick rate and autoattack speed (which is like what 0.05 faster attacks) doesnt make sence when mastery and vers is flat out damage and deffencive
kind talon
Haste is more damage than verse even in aoe
But vers gives dr so
It’s very valuable
slow helm
how is it "more damage" than vers in aoe when vers also makes your fan of knifes do more damage not just your dots?
stoic needle
it just is, that's what the sims say
carmine token
it's an old post, i just meme the fuck out of it because of that little statemen...
i can appreciate that. Considering I was a MM/hunter main and now im a rogue main, it esp hits the right way for me
We cleared xymox this week, i switched to rogue finally after putting up higher numbers with less ilvl. The group is calling it quits though after 32 weeks, so if i want to finish the tier, gotta find another group.
slow helm
like the sim is not even 0.05 damage apart so saying its "more damage than vers" is a overrating if you ask me @kind talon
kind talon
Ok
stoic needle
but like 0.05 > 0