assassination

[final star]

Just do big number

Beat dungeon

Kill boss

[hollow escarp]

[swift dragon]

who the fuck

keeps deleting my shit

[odd hazel]

prob the mods

[hollow escarp]

or the bot

[swift dragon]

probably

[vital tapir]

whoever it is I'm grateful to them

[odd hazel]

^

[swift dragon]

fair

[strange python]

It's just off topic

[honest heath]

Just got my rogue to 60...which legendary should i craft for sin raid?

[vital tapir]

doomblade.

[hollow escarp]

^

[odd hazel]

heres hoping that venthyr leggo is good

it seems nice.

[strange python]

It looks it atm for sure.

[odd hazel]

that + the new soulbind for euphoria seems poggers

[strange python]

Feelycraft though

[honest heath]

Ok thanks. I guess I'll just save up my soul Ash for when the torghast wing is up with it then

[final star]

Can get it from twisting corridors

[hollow escarp]

do the twisting corridors trick

[final star]

Just gotta reset for the correct wing on floor 3

[shrewd night]

Challenging on freshly dinged, but we believe in you

[honest heath]

Ah gotcha

Can I solo it at 180ish ilvl though?

[hollow escarp]

it can be a challenge

[final star]

Floor 3 should be okay

[hollow escarp]

but doable

[final star]

Stealth past as much as possible

And get every power you can

[hollow escarp]

and focus on powers to kill the last boss

[honest heath]

And would being outlaw be easier?

[vital tapir]

yeah

[hollow escarp]

or to survive

[final star]

Yeah

[hollow escarp]

I think at 180 ilvl sub is the best

[vital tapir]

just get hp and ST dmg powers

[hollow escarp]

because of % healing from Soothing Darkness

[vital tapir]

ye, bc sub has the sustain through soothing darkness

ye

[hollow escarp]

while leeching poison is per damage

[vital tapir]

was just about to say that

[hollow escarp]

and outlaw is very rng on self healing

[strange python]

You can dunk on floor 8 at 180 with sub

[honest heath]

Ah gotcha. I'll go sub then.

I need to grab the outlaw Lego too for m+

[odd hazel]

what ilvl are you guys simming at for 7k+? feels like i have a long way to go at 6.3k at 215.

im assuming thats 220+

[hollow escarp]

yeah, I'm 225 and I sim 6866

[strange python]

I'm back down under 7k after switching back to necbro

[hollow escarp]

got 226/223 daggers as well

[final star]

I sim at 6.5k cos necro and 207 OH

I have not seen a single dagger drop since 9.0.5

[odd hazel]

its okay kieron, i just got my first tanglewood dagger after like 40+ mist runs

[strange python]

Daggers are bullshit to get tbh

I did 90 mists runs to get one

[hollow escarp]

I never got the sire dagger on my main, but I got it on my alt rogue on my 2nd sire hc kill

[strange python]

And still haven't had a single iota of luck from the raid

[odd hazel]

im hoping to get that so i dont have to run mists again

[strange python]

Or vault

https://c.tenor.com/HHzUxhwSW_AAAAAM/hamster-wheel.gif

[final star]

I've only done 21mists

Since 9.0.5

Between 15 and 20

[hollow escarp]

I've boosted a few MISTS and SD for dagger, none dropped so far lol

quite fortunate that I don't need it for myself

[final star]

i'll get it from raid eventually

[hollow escarp]

that's how I got my main hand

from vault though

[final star]

I have 220MH

😩

Dagger luck bad

[swift dragon]

if you want to do any M+ as well, zoldyck is the play

[odd hazel]

any M+? thats a reach

zoldyck is good but its not required?

[final star]

I don't like zoldyck in m+

Or subterfuge

[strange python]

Hi all, i was a little confused after watching the guides. It said if theres more than 4 targets then i just spam fan of knifes, do i only spend my points on crimson tempest if theres more than 4 targets?

Instead of rupturing them all

[final star]

No

You maintain the CT bleed

And rupture

[strange python]

Oh okay so i want to rupture as many as i can while the CT buff it up

[final star]

Yes

[odd hazel]

i guess zoldyck is fine if you're doing like 20+ keys where things live forever even at 30% and lower. but doing 13-15s i dont use it and go the EP/Subterfuge/vigor/CT build and do just fine with doom

[restive citrus]

What do y’all run in m+ if not zoldyck?

[final star]

Rupture mobs that will live the duration

[strange python]

Okay thanks a lot ^ same with garrote right?

[final star]

I run MA

Cos I am a Chad

[odd hazel]

i run doomblade because the difference is so little that i cant be fucked to do torghast

[final star]

With EP/NS/MfD

@strange python yes if you are running subterfuge you want to open with garrotes

[hollow escarp]

in the keys I've done with that build, I always had better damage than the classic subt build

[final star]

Yup

[strange python]

Thanks a lot Kieron i appreciate it !

[hollow escarp]

didn't do more than 10 keys with it though

[odd hazel]

i feel as though it would feel weird to play MA with sin.

[final star]

It really ally ain't that bad

Mage was giga undergeared tho

[odd hazel]

do you just vanish into evenoms? not worrying about spreading your garrotes or anything?

[final star]

No

[odd hazel]

during the window

[final star]

You vanish CT in aoe

[odd hazel]

ooooo

that must be giga numbers

[hollow escarp]

but you wanna do it with full cp

[final star]

Yes

[hollow escarp]

and with nightstalker

to snapshot

[final star]

It's big

[odd hazel]

i might actually try that build then

[final star]

Open with mfd + CT

[hollow escarp]

the crit doesn't snapshot, but the NS damage increase does

[odd hazel]

so EP/NS/MFD/CT with the MA leggo?

[final star]

Which we discovered is a gain even if you mfd at 1-3CP

Yes

You open

MfD + CT > Fok > Rupture > Fok > Rupture > garrote

[swift dragon]

you wanna garrote caster mobs because of iron wire and sub

lets you silence up to 3 mobs for 6 seconds each

[hollow escarp]

that's the sad part about the NS/MFD/CT build

you can't garrote silence

[final star]

It definitely feels smoother to play

[hollow escarp]

imagine getting in a group as a rogue, they ask you to gouge something

uhmm, wrong spec

oh well, you can garrote silence then

uhm, about that

[odd hazel]

ive never had anyone complain about being sin

[final star]

[odd hazel]

WAIT

KIERON

i wanted to believe your build

[swift dragon]

pepe is my fucking spirit animal

[final star]

What's not to believe

[hollow escarp]

just like any other melee that is not outlaw, you have to sell your spec, and one of the strong points on assa is Iron Wire

[final star]

It pumps

Iron wire inconsequential in the long term tho

[hollow escarp]

depends on how you play around it

the ads in mechagon are very good to silence as sin

the ads before first boss in SD

you can even vanish to silence multiple

[final star]

Yeah can manage without trivially too

Especially with aoe stuns, kicks etc

[hollow escarp]

for sure

[final star]

It helps

But it's not that bad to not haveit

[hollow escarp]

I'm just trying to find a selling point for my fav spec in keys

ofc you don't need the garrote silence to time keys

the same you can do it without gouge

[final star]

ya

Selling point is pump

[hollow escarp]

[final star]

Boss damage is giga

Even in "aoe" build

[hollow escarp]

if you don't pump on pride before

[final star]

You can do 5k dps without cd on pride

Which is way more than adequate

[hollow escarp]

I did some keys yesterday, used vendetta on pride but didn't get a good vendetta for boss

as it died with like 10 sec left

[final star]

I don't vendetta pride before a boss

[hollow escarp]

and that's tyranical keys 18-19 with mm hunter and havoc

[final star]

Flat out

[hollow escarp]

I mean

[final star]

Mm hunter and havoc zdps on prides tho tbf

[hollow escarp]

don't you want vendetta in execute phase?

I got baited

and we killed bosses too fast

[final star]

Without zoldycks?

[hollow escarp]

but I assume on 20+ keys

it works that way

yeah, I play zoldyck

mostly

[final star]

I'm talking

MA

Ofc you want for execute with zoldycks

But a NS rupture you can pump the fuck outta pride

Without CD's

[hollow escarp]

yep

well, we do have good damage on prides even without vendetta

[final star]

Yeah, so does outlaw either way

[hollow escarp]

yeah

[odd hazel]

phew boys, i got tanglewood + voracious gorger spine now. feels good

[deft cave]

so will u open in ST with mfd rupture with this build?

[hollow escarp]

yes

[odd hazel]

honestly, im gonna be a little pissed if i get something good in my vault and i WASTED all of that valor

[hollow escarp]

I got 226 phial 3 weeks after I got my 220 one from Valor

still took it

[odd hazel]

i would cry as i hit accept still

[honest heath]

Man. Did the torghast trick you all recommended and was so easy. Thanks! Got doomblade now

[final star]

[lavish grove]

hmm need to try that MA build. Seems fun. Also sims 150 extra dps in dungeon slice over doomblade or zoldyk (which sim the same)

Sim trap activated 😛

[teal bloom]

Is Cleave Add the best way to sim fights like Inerva?

[hollow escarp]

usually you wanna skip or immune the ads, so not sure if that's very reliable

[odd hazel]

Ye, if you're group is competent enough you can focus boss usually.

i usually will just throw a garrote/rupture on the one we are currently focusing

[red plaza]

!oil

[prisma monolith]

Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ

[tribal mauve]

what trick ? 😮

[wary ice]

yes

[wary ice]

probably layer 3 resets until the right wing

[honest heath]

Yes that one

So I didn't have to wait for mort to come up for the legendary I need

[strong saffron]

when talented in DS should i envenom on 4 CP or only on 5/6?

[wary ice]

5/6

yes, even in Ma vanish windows, effectively makes the vanish some permutation of mut mut env

[stoic needle]

Zoldyck non-believers

[wary ice]

cleave add is the best way to get a big number to show your friends. I dont think its reasonably applicable to any fight in recent years

[misty zenith]

When you are using the M+ buiild, do you keep up Crimson on a boss fight?

[hollow escarp]

yes

outside shiv windows

[misty zenith]

U only want to be doing evenoms during shiv then?

[ripe shell]

just went back to assa: so in the opener I go ....garrote flag rupture vendetta ... correct? (wondering where to flag during opener) with ma/vigor talented

[hollow escarp]

correct

[misty zenith]

Thats fior M+ only right?

[hollow escarp]

same for any raid encounter where you have CT talented

[misty zenith]

Allright

[errant viper]

In a ST environment, what’s the optimal use of Serrared Bone Spike? I’m guessing keep DoT on target and use it when you’re at 4 CP and don’t want to waste Mutilate’s 2 CP generation? Guides say to not let it reach 3 charges, I’m guessing that doesn’t strictly apply to ST, correct?

[hollow escarp]

you can do mut snd mut garrote vendetta flag rupture, so flag after vendetta

it's not a big difference applying flag before as that's what you can see on raidbots

[ripe shell]

ay thank you

[stoic needle]

Use sbs during shiv or during the marrowed gemstones proc

You also open with sbs from stealth

Sbs SnD mut

[errant viper]

Hmm 😮 If I’ve already set the DoT up for SBS, what’s the reason for reapplying it, if it’s permanent?

[hollow escarp]

the instant damage and combo point generation for low energy cost ability

[wary ice]

p sure SBS is like 3 mutilates in instant damage alone

[hollow escarp]

pretty sure you wanna dump all your SBS close to the end of the fight as well

[errant viper]

Trying to understand the logic here: If this the reason behind using SBS: The reason I use it during Shiv windows and Marrowed Gemstone procs is to build up combo points quickly so as to Envenom as much as possible, is this correct?

[stoic needle]

Sbs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mut

[stoic needle]

Yes exactly

Sbs is way more energy efficient

[errant viper]

So being more energy efficient, and with its use being limited by a cooldown, I’d be best off ensuring to use it a often as possible during windows were energy efficiency “matters most” so to speak.

Okay, that makes sense.

[limber lion]

You only use it during Gemstone and cooldowns

Not during Shiv windows.

[stoic needle]

You can do either

[errant viper]

🤔

[limber lion]

The sim only uses them on Gemstone procs, not during Shiv.

[hollow escarp]

I guess that's because of mutilate cp generation?

in a short window of gcds?

[limber lion]

It's just more efficient and more damage when used during Gems

[errant viper]

How should I use it during Gemstone procs? Should I empty out all my SBS charges or just ensure not to reach 3 charges?

[limber lion]

Empty everything

You keep it from stacking at all times.

[errant viper]

So even outside gemstone procs, on my regular rotation, if I’m about to reach 3 charges I throw one.

[limber lion]

Yes.

[errant viper]

I’m guessing this means that as KoJack pointed out, you throw them all near the end of the fight, correct?

[limber lion]

But during Gems you empty.

Yes.

[scenic meteor]

should i craft doomblade for raids or just keep upgrading my zoldyks - will doomblade significantly increase my damage or is it not worth it?

[limber lion]

You empty everything during gemstone and if there's less than 5s left on the encounter.

Here are the conditions for SBS.

[limber lion]

Yes you should craft Doomblade.

[errant viper]

The logic behind emptying during Gems, I’m guessing it has to do with it being likely to Crit, and hence comparing
Combo Points / Energy Spent
...for both Mutilate and SBS, I guess?

[limber lion]

Yes

[scenic meteor]

is zoldyk only better for m+?

[limber lion]

And for AoE fights and some progressions fights, like mythic Sire.

[scenic meteor]

ok thanks, ill go for doomblade then for raiding

[limber lion]

[scenic meteor]

is zoldyck better for running torghast?

[limber lion]

No, you use MA there.

[echo estuary]

It's the difference between overall better dps and being able to pass a damage check near the end of one right? Zold vs doom

[limber lion]

But anything goes honestly.

[echo estuary]

In raiding I mean

[limber lion]

Yes pretty much. Zoldyck is less overall, but more damage in execute.

[echo estuary]

In farm doomblade all the way

Lol

[limber lion]

Yep

[errant viper]

Thank you very much for all the explanations Ceverion!

One final question: With the possible legendaries coming in 9.1 (specifically looking at the Necrolord legendary), I know that Assassination will look better in M+ than it does now. Do you guys think it’s possible that Assassination will overtake Outlaw in terms of M+ performance?

[smoky gorge]

Sudden fractures worth using as necro or should I still be using lethal and well placed steel?

[stoic needle]

it's too early to say whether sin will beat outlaw in M+

[limber lion]

Definitely, you should sim it but it most likely pulls ahead.

[stoic needle]

the dslice sims with deathspike are looking very close for both, and sin is winning in 2 target cleave and high aoe counts but still, too early to say

[limber lion]

With the new Necro legendary, doubt it. But anything can change. Don't bet on it.

[stoic needle]

sin will probably need to do a noticeable margin more damage in m+ than outlaw to be considered 'better'

[scenic root]

I'm necro sin, my sims say sudden fractures and the shiv one is best.

[errant viper]

As of now, are Necrolord and Venthyr still showing close in ST for 9.1?

[limber lion]

They haven't changed at all.

So, yes?

[stoic needle]

the new soulbinds aren't implemented yet so that could change

and the soulbinds themselves could also change

[errant viper]

Got it

[limber lion]

Yeh, literally anything can change.

[stoic needle]

we're most likely going to get another ptr build in a few days that could change everything

[limber lion]

Just like Flag has changed 3 times now.

[errant viper]

So... which would you guys bet on right now? What’s your gut feeling telling you on Necrolord vs. Venthyr in 9.1? 😛

[limber lion]

Why are you asking about 9.1

[errant viper]

Just curious on your opinions

[limber lion]

And what do you not understand about "literally anything can change"

[scenic root]

Do you play outlaw in any content? Play necro, if not go venthyr

[hollow escarp]

our opinions don't really matter

[limber lion]

Necro might be great and looks great

One numbers tuning and it's worse than Kyrian

I wouldn't bet on anything currently.

It's still 2-3 months away.

Maybe Blizz goes apeshit and makes Sephuz our best legendary.

Maybe they don't do anything

Maybe the soulbinds are broken on release

Maybe they miss a comma.in their code

[errant viper]

Fair points!

[thorny pond]

I doubt tuning dropped on 9.1 are final raid tunings anyways

[limber lion]

Nothing is certain and numbers should not be looked at currently.

It's fine to look at the effects and what they can do

But numbers not so much.

[thorny pond]

Maybe we're all sub heroes

[limber lion]

Def not

[stoic needle]

sub's ptr sims are within 1% of sin now

[thorny pond]

Sub was the #1 beta spec too

So

[limber lion]

And which is it now?

#29?

[hollow escarp]

[limber lion]

Sub was broken

[thorny pond]

Think the hunter spec called... 👓survival is ahead

[hollow escarp]

actually below survival

[limber lion]

Literally.

It had broken conduits, a broken legendary and a broken combination of those 2.

And combination with a talent

Everything just stacked to the heavens.

[thorny pond]

A kid can dream

Akaris gives CP again. Was the most OP fun shit ever

[short hamlet]

Based on 9.0.5 i would expect to see them go back and do a cov overhaul in 9.1.5

[thorny pond]

Can't make a pattern from one data point

[short hamlet]

It's more like " blizzard has failed to balance the coves for 6 months since release and i expect that to continue"

They're adding several new soul bind rows, new conduits, and new legendary items

[stoic needle]

idk about other classes but rogue covenants have been fairly balanced since release

[placid pagoda]

Should you craft Zoldiks on feet or legs?

[stoic needle]

every covenant being within 5% of each other is blizzard's goal

[stoic needle]

if you're a mythic raider and expect to get CE next tier, boots, if not, legs

[placid pagoda]

Ye mythic raid

Okay sick thank you

[short hamlet]

Yeah I mean it's relative but if you're pushing high level pve content i think there's been some dramatic balance changes

[stoic needle]

it's like the SLG shoulders situation this patch, there are high ilvl legs from the last 2 bosses but no high ilvl boots

[stoic needle]

we hyperfocus on the differences between the covenants because they feel impactful because they're all we have. but the truth is you've been able to play all covenants at all levels of content since release. it's not like boomkin where not playing NF is literally inting your raid

[wary ice]

have they fixed token of appreciation yet?

where it breaks stealth*

[lucid knoll]

I keep seeing logs with people using the strength enchant on gloves, whats up with that?, did they play too much classic or is it actually worth equipping for some spagetthi code reason?.

[hollow escarp]

just a meme

[short hamlet]

I agree it's very relative, and also subjective to the individual.

I find 3-5% swings enough that I feel compelled to hop around and follow the meta to maximize my teams chances, so I would characterize the balance changes blizzard has established as pretty influential

[hollow escarp]

[ionic kelp]

nope

still breaking stealth as of yesterday

[spice spire]

Ur a monster

[odd hazel]

Is it just a meme though? Secrete weapon ?

[bleak sky]

I can't believe I missed the shitshow earlier today

[spice spire]

Earlier today was unnecessary

[stoic needle]

I just hope that they continue the trend of keeping things relatively close and allowing each covenant to have a specialty. I don't want there to be one bis covenant for all content

[hollow escarp]

hey, it doesn't hurt to enchant your gloves

[spice spire]

[short hamlet]

I wouldn't mind if it my choice was +2% ST and -3% AOE for Covenant A.

What annoys me is that at release I picked Venthyr and was very sure they would balance Flag to be what it is now (no second GCD, actually do damage), but thought it would come sooner. After a while of waiting I jumped ship only to come back around.

I would be pretty annoyed if Necrolord jumps ahead in 9.1 only to have to level another goddamn Covenant

[odd hazel]

I doubt necro will pop ahead ST wise

[limber lion]

This is where it's at.

[short hamlet]

[hollow escarp]

I have enough of that stat irl

better to heart faster

need to find enchants for other stuff

I know boon of the zookeper works on shoulders

[stoic needle]

I mean at the moment necrolord is -1% st and +3% aoe over venthyr I really don't think it's as big of a deal as you think

[short hamlet]

right now I think it's fine, but my point was that blizz' is adding a lot of layers of complexity to the performance of classes and I'm skeptical that they can balance it given the changes they've done

Sins buffs alone to both baseline spec performance alone and legendaries were dramatic

[timber basalt]

just pray to ion that the dice rolls the right way

having 3 decent covenants is 2 more than most classes

[echo estuary]

Balanced classes makes the meta boring :P normally means they are all gutted of fun. Lol

[timber basalt]

iirc in beta kyrian was predicted to be best performing for boomies and arcanic pulsar was meant to be 2nd best lego

one of our boomies quit the game because he got bullied for being kyrian in february

[hollow escarp]

all 3 rogue covenants are fine though

[short hamlet]

[timber basalt]

that's my point

[stoic needle]

Yeah true I can agree with you there, if they keep adding systems it's less and less likely that things will stay balanced

These new maw raid gems

And maw touched weapons

[hollow escarp]

there will always be a king for each spec

[short hamlet]

Like if they add all the shit in 9.1 and we find ourselves in a situation like we do now where it's only a small difference between coves I will be legit shocked

[hollow escarp]

like if you see a venthyr rogue, you know he is assa, if necro, it's safe to assume they are outlaw, if kyrian, they probably quit the game before 9.0.5

[short hamlet]

And if you see a night fae know they originally were something else

[hollow escarp]

If I wasn't raiding, I would have stayed NF

[short hamlet]

Soul shape is a gangster spell

I wasn't a huge fan of sepsis though

[hollow escarp]

it's a bit annoying that we don't really get to interact with it and just press it on CD

after a shiv global

on sub you kinda cared about that shadowstrike

on outlaw the ambush

[placid pagoda]

You recon it’s better going boots then?

[stoic needle]

If you're confident that you will kill mythic kt go for it

[hollow river]

Necro assa ftw 🙂

[stoic needle]

[echo estuary]

Hrmm do I switch from venth to necro for the AoE or stay ST dominance for raid 🤔

[dawn ivy]

gotta wait out the patch a little bit more

if sylvanas really doesnt have any adds on mythic, theres no shot sin doesnt stay venthyr

[limber lion]

Venthyr is not that much ahead in ST. It's not exactly "dominating".

[echo estuary]

Tbh only reason I'd go necro is for M+

[limber lion]

I would just go to Necro tbh

[echo estuary]

How does it feel using sbs for st rotation?

[stoic needle]

Great

It's very interactive

Well more than the default rotation at least

[echo estuary]

Lol I'm coming from BDK where getting like 10 dps more on a kill compared to a previous kill feels like a victory.

So im always tempted by a small increase in dps lmao

[stoic needle]

Well any fight where you can get sbs resets necro is better

Which seems to be quite a bit of the next tier

Venthyr shines in burst windows and with damage amps because flag hits like a truck

So sludgefist

Next tier doesn't have any damage amps from what I can see tho

[echo estuary]

Oh yeah I also tend to value burst over sustain

I have a few months to think about covenants anyways lol

Also still have to convince my guild to make someone else tank so I can go back to being a dps

[halcyon zealot]

yeah if anything in the downtime you got time to get your top contenders to 40 so when you decide in 9.1 you aren’t behind

[echo estuary]

Yeah gonna finish venth out then work on necro

[mossy sable]

Be careful with that

[echo estuary]

Don't worry I don't think I'll get hurt

[mossy sable]

I started as Venth and decided to play Necro and grind it to 40 incase I felt like swapping

Now I have a Covenant crisis

idk which to go back to

Or stay on

[echo estuary]

Lmao

[mossy sable]

How DARE you laugh at my plight!!!

lol

[echo estuary]

I might be screwed then haha

I'm known for race changing all the time in my guild

Because I always wanna change lol

[halcyon zealot]

blizzard must love you

[mossy sable]

Venth is fun and so is Necro
Necro has a better Cov Hub and Story (imo)
I like the Zone of Revendreth Better
Venth mog is better than Necro except for back pieces

Venth Tp is kinda useless as a rogue in most situations

[halcyon zealot]

sinfall is BiS class hall

[stoic needle]

Venthyr blade cape > necro everything wdym

[mossy sable]

And Necro has 2 good soulbinds while Venth has 1 so I can't Main Law and swap to Sin here and there as well

[stoic needle]

Venthyr has just bis aesthetic everything

[mossy sable]

It's badass but too bouncy

Thats my 1 issue

[stoic needle]

Necro does have much better soulbinds, but idk that you can't dual spec as venthyr

[mossy sable]

And tombstone is fugly

Fight me

[stoic needle]

The problem is that venthyr is just bad for outlaw

Sub is on the rise now, and it seems like venthyr is gonna be bis for them which makes things even more complicated

[mossy sable]

I do not like Sub at all

However my GM pointed something out to me

I am still working on being better at Law for raid

And CP overcapping is one of my issues

And well SBS generates more cp

[stoic needle]

I'd rather be benched than play outlaw in raid

Sbs is pretty predictable for the cp it gives though

Especially in st

[mossy sable]

Yeah it's more just I need more work

Whhats wrong with outlaw in raid?

I main outlaw but offspec Sin

Learning it still

[stoic needle]

The gameplay loop of outlaw is not enjoyable on progression

Wipe every time you get 5 buffs

Kill when you roll grand melee 10x in a row

I don't like how much variance the spec has

[mossy sable]

Hmm I can understand that

My biggest issue with Sin is it feels so fucking slow

Like I am getting used to it

[stoic needle]

Even when you play it properly your dps varies 300+

I love the slow gameplay

[halcyon zealot]

ya it’s engraved in my brain that if i roll a 5 buff we WILL wipe

[mossy sable]

But it's boring to sit there spamming Mutilate 5 times

Waiting to have energy

[stoic needle]

Deeper strat + ep next tier

[halcyon zealot]

i mean you can play vigor if you wanna feel faster

[stoic needle]

I mean yeah it feels slow when you come directly from playing outlaw

But with sbs and blindside and vigor as necro you have a decent amount of apm

[halcyon zealot]

DS is better but it’s not like you’ll do 0 dps if you play vigor if you like that play style

[stoic needle]

Ep/vigor literally sims 5-10 dps worse than bs/deeper for me at 225 ilvl

[shy dust]

Not even coming from outlaw

Just in general

It’s one of the slowest melee specs if not the slowest

[mossy sable]

It's just slow in general,

Like

Arms is faster etc

[stoic needle]

I don't really care, doesn't bother me

[mossy sable]

I can't think of any other melee slower than Sin

[shy dust]

Yeah I’m very sure it is the slowest

But that’s how it’s meant to be

[mossy sable]

Right

Thats just my only gripe with the spec

Which since BFA I have gotten used to it more

It just takes a lot of adjustment to get used to

[mossy sable]

I lose 0.05% if I run EP/Vigor which is 26 dps

[stoic needle]

26 dps is more than a fine compromise if you like the faster gameplay better

[mossy sable]

Ok so Feral is slower

lol

[stoic needle]

[halcyon zealot]

arcane holdin up that caboose with a god damn 30

[mossy sable]

Hey guys

Can we just like

Respect

Nice

[stoic needle]

i'm pretty sure venthyr with bs/vigor and dashing scoundrel is around 50 or 52 apm

[stoic needle]

nice.

[mossy sable]

I might just do it

I hate being a 1 trick spec player

[stoic needle]

u will literally

N E V E R

[mossy sable]

And I only play rogue rn

[stoic needle]

notice the difference

like

never ever

[mossy sable]

Besides

Thats 26 dps

If I play 100% optimally

[stoic needle]

exactly

[mossy sable]

And like I am not that good at the game

[molten beacon]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[mossy sable]

I'm no top tier rogue, I make a fuck ton of mistakes

But I aint trying to be a World 1st raider

[subtle tundra]

faster gameplay = losing more from downtime, dont forget

[ionic kelp]

ive seen this so many times and it makes me want to try arcane just to see wtf that’s about

[stoic needle]

its like less than deathly vs celerity which no one can really tell the difference between the two

[mossy sable]

Hmm ok

[stoic needle]

apparently arcane is the biggest burst window spec

like you do tank damage outside of your windows

but during them it's the highest dps in the game

[mossy sable]

Me coming from Outlaw

Lol whats Burst windows

[stoic needle]

Yeah I want to play some sub so I can have some fun with some burst windows

[mossy sable]

Like Sludge is so weird for Outlaw

Raid leads like HOLD CD

And i'm like yeah umm

They don't do shit

[stoic needle]

I was pretty trash at sub when i first started playing but i think i'd be better at it now

[mossy sable]

I can "Play" Sub

Hate it in AoE

Black Powder is ew

[stoic needle]

flagnado now tho

seems kinda pog

[mossy sable]

Hmmm yes

I guess it's not as bad as like Arcane is

But I dislike sub for the burst window thing

Like

No damage, no damage. no damage. AHHJHHHHHHHHH.... no damage

[stoic needle]

I don't mind it especially when the fight's mechanics line up with your burst windows

[mossy sable]

I think kinda like the speed of sin**

I would need to get used to it

Over a period of playing it

[stoic needle]

i find it nice for prog so that I can learn the fights without having to worry about completely trashing my rotation

[mossy sable]

The annoying part about Sub is I would need to replace a lot of gear

[stoic needle]

but it doesn't quite seem fair that sin gets to do big pp insano ST damage without having do do as much work as sub

in a perfect world sub would do more ST imo

[mossy sable]

Vers, Haste, Crit, Mast for Law
Haste, Crit, Vers, Mast for Sin
Vers, Crit, ?, ? for Sub

Law and Sin gear can be mixed easier

[stoic needle]

very true

[mossy sable]

I mean rn even on law

I run high crit high haste

Assassination

[stoic needle]

it's definitely annoying getting optimal stats for every spec

[mossy sable]

Outlaw

Stupid fucking MASTERY WONT DIE

[stoic needle]

my m+ stats

so good

it's nice that sin and sub want similar stats for m+

[mossy sable]

So in M+ do you take lower haste since your dots give more energy?

[stoic needle]

well haste doesn't really have that huge of an impact on energy generation in the first place

it's like 1 extra energy per 10% haste

[frigid kestrel]

As long as you have high Crit, you can practically mix and match anything else in M+ for sin and do good.

[stoic needle]

^

mastery is the best stat for aoe

and crit

[mossy sable]

Outlaw also wants high crit for AoE situations

So crit is kinda universal there huh

[stoic needle]

yeah

[frigid kestrel]

Yup

[stoic needle]

i have like no vers gear

i need more if i want to play sub

[mossy sable]

I do cause Law and PvP

[stoic needle]

i don't wanna pvp tho

[mossy sable]

Your horde I bet

[stoic needle]

yea

[mossy sable]

Figures

Nobody plays ally

[stoic needle]

i just dont enjoy this pvp meta

[frigid kestrel]

I do

[mossy sable]

Nobody will group with me

[stoic needle]

i'd rather do keys for gear

[frigid kestrel]

Mechagnome Rogue

[stoic needle]

[mossy sable]

I would rather the meta was gone

But at the same time

I wish in 9.1 I wouldn't lose ilvl just for wanting to do mixed content

Or I have to run 2 sets

rn I run maybe 1.5 sets swapping some pieces in here and there for PvP/PvE

[frigid kestrel]

Sheet 2 cheat deaths, Combat Analysis, I am a absolute tool, and I’m made of metal

Can’t go wrong

[lost mist]

nice looking stats for raiding

and a lot of agi but an 220 oh bc i sleep on council lol

and dena drops me everything but dagger

[bleak sky]

and sin would have big dick execute damage bake into the kit

[mossy sable]

And outlaw would...

Do something

idk

[elfin valley]

For M sire prog would yall suggest Zoldryck or Doomblade. I see a lot of ppl running doomblade on logs but was just curious if zoldryck is worth using

[pearl agate]

random question: does anyone know if cloak of shadows works on the ghosts in mythic xymox?

[elfin valley]

it does sanc

[bleak sky]

afaik zoldyck's is good because p3 is the most important phase

but I'm not on denny yet so what do I know

[elfin valley]

thats what i was thinking i was just looking over logs and was concerned bc most ppl are not running it

[bleak sky]

but I think it might depend on your raid comp tbh

if you have enough executes then maybe running doomblade is better?

[gusty mirage]

Correct, plus lots of movement & mechanics in the last phase makes zold better for Danny boy

[grave dock]

if your concern is p3, you can't really have "enough"

him dying faster in p3 is always better

[winter vapor]

So I recently simmed Vigor vs DS for raid spec with Blindside, DS has now finally come out ontop (+64dps) but scrolling up a bit, should I already have been taking Elaborate planning over Blindside for ST raiding?

[pearl agate]

thanks man. i love this class 😄

[plain thistle]

usually it is blindside + DS and EP + vigor, but you can use EP + Vigor just fine for ST and its better for something like sludgefist and when I simmed my character it was better for fast fights (3min and less)

[winter vapor]

Yeah I just had been running with Blindside and Vigor for rpetty much everything, I mean I've not even done heroic CN yet so its not much but, hey ho

*raid wise

[lost mist]

EP+MFD team here ahahaha

[frigid kestrel]

It does

[lost mist]

ghost+traps+seeds

[silent stratus]

build for inerva mythic progress?

EP + Vig + PB?

[stoic needle]

yeah that sounds about right

[silent stratus]

can I immune adds w/ cloak?

[scenic root]

Yes

Have to pop before cast thought

[silent stratus]

is it suggested to immune everytime I can?

[stoic needle]

before the cast finishes

your RL may try to coordinate the immunes for the last phase

but you can just cloak every time its up and shes casting adds

[scenic root]

My group does first and 3rd for 2min CDs

[bleak sky]

CT best for inerva, no?

I need an adult in here tho

[limber lion]

No, PB for Inerva.

[stoic needle]

don't need CT for inerva

[gusty mirage]

It’s still primarily a ST fight

[stoic needle]

ct for inerva parsing

but not for prog

[bleak sky]

oh yes

[scenic root]

You want priority dmg. After small add is dead upkeep bleeds on big add and stay on inerva

[stoic needle]

for prog the adds are basically energy batteries

[limber lion]

Finally 10/10M. Got the council down :p

[stoic needle]

you bleed them to get more energy to pump the boss with

[silent stratus]

@stoic needle 2-3 cp rupture + garr + sbs for 3 of them?

[stoic needle]

probably just rupture and sbs

[gusty mirage]

👑 hey king you dropped this earlier just returning it to it’s rightful owner

[stoic needle]

gar on the big one

[plain thistle]

in the end inerva parse is SUPER RNG, you get fucked if you get 1/2 lines, and if you manage to immune most adds with DK and warrior GG no parse for you

[limber lion]

<3

[gusty mirage]

[scenic root]

Yeah I was progging last night, some pulls had 95ilvl parse others had 12

[limber lion]

ilvl parses are very rough. You probs don't wanna look at them too much

[scenic root]

Well I'm not maxed BiS 233 ilvl.. so..

[stoic needle]

still look at your regular parse %

even if you aren't bis

[limber lion]

Yeh

Ilvl parses and wipe parses in particular are not accurate representations on how you're doing

There's too many variables at play for them to matter. Like when you lust, whether or not you skip adds, when you die, when you wipe

[stoic needle]

just try not to be at the bottom of the meters

[undone eagle]

Cutting edge = that u can join any mythic group for raids?

[vital tapir]

So uhhh
@limber lion when stream again?

[limber lion]

Usually if you have CE, you don't join random groups :p

[plain thistle]

cutting edge= killed the last boss before the new raid

mythic raid

[undone eagle]

Oh cheers

[plain thistle]

not sure if he was asking what cutting edge means 🤔

[limber lion]

I might be streaming our reclear currently. Maybe.

[undone eagle]

Yep i mean the defination of it in raiding

[drowsy zodiac]

!sims

[prisma monolith]

Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[undone eagle]

I thought it was like last months before new tier

[plain thistle]

yeah, ahead of the curve = last boss heroic before new raid, cutting edge = same thing but mythic raid

[vital tapir]

F
Will join the stream in Like half an hour

[undone eagle]

Aha ok thanks ! 🙂 so halls of famd means that u can join any mythic group right

Fame*

[plain thistle]

halls of fame is top100 to kill last boss mythic

[undone eagle]

Ok thanks xD

Is there a word for joining any mythic group?

Like these kind of name stuff

CR HoF etc

[vital tapir]

Pugging.

No

[undone eagle]

Oki thnx

Now im not confused anymore

[timber basalt]

mythic pugs open when hall of fame is filled

[undone eagle]

Was weird when i googled it

[timber basalt]

there isn't a name for it

[undone eagle]

Ohhh right

[timber basalt]

before that you can only join groups from your realm

after you can join cross realm pugs

[undone eagle]

So mythic pug can open whenever depending when top 100 is filled

Okey ty

[plain thistle]

top 100 of both faction, horde and alliance

[shy dust]

Self advertisement

Banned

[limber lion]

He asked

[plain thistle]

[north cobalt]

so shadowcore + phantom fire right? do you ever use agility?

[stoic needle]

agi+stones

only use phantom fire and shadowcore if you're trying to rng a parse

[north cobalt]

wow ok. good to know

[cerulean nest]

why are so many people necro right now lol I thought venth was the move for ST

[stoic needle]

because venthyr is only ~80dps ahead of necro

[plain thistle]

you actually answered yourself there

[stoic needle]

and necro is bangers and mash for m+

[cerulean nest]

bangers and mash eh?

[stoic needle]

with gravy baby

[cerulean nest]

well I just switched to venth a couple weeks ago

and was thinking of starting to learn outlaw to push high keys next tier

ugh that means necro is probably the move

great

[stoic needle]

be a chad and push high keys as sin

don't quote me on this but i think deathspike is a bigger dps increase for sin in dslice than it is for outlaw

[scenic root]

I did some as sin, have only 1kio and top 100 on my realm. Lmao

[limber lion]

:O

[scenic root]

For assassin

[cerulean nest]

I mean my goal is to get all 20s next tier

[stoic needle]

whyspir said that deathspike is double digit % dps increase

for sin

[limber lion]

I thought it was like giga busted for Outlaw because it flurries. Is it not?

[cerulean nest]

you really think sin would stack up?

[stoic needle]

it is

[gusty mirage]

That’s a fair goal

[limber lion]

Sheez what

That's dank

[stoic needle]

but for outlaw it's only like 2-3% above MA

[cerulean nest]

is deathspike a conduit?

[gusty mirage]

MA strong af when your vanish is essentially a 45s cd

[cerulean nest]

or leggo

[plain thistle]

new leggo

[scenic root]

Necro is BiS for outlaw, the initial dmg on SBS flurries

[stoic needle]

you can easily get all 20s with sin

[plain thistle]

for necrolord

[cerulean nest]

oh oh

[plain thistle]

in 9.1, not live yet

[stoic needle]

from what i saw, the big boy outlaw dslice sims are only ~300 ahead of sin now

[cerulean nest]

I mean I'd def rather do that than switch again

[stoic needle]

with necro deathspike for both

[gusty mirage]

Slowly getting 15s as sin and dunking on firemages rn

[plain thistle]

yeah, deathspike looks so juice for assa dgs

[silent stratus]

gar not worth on the small ones?

[stoic needle]

they don't live long enough

[silent stratus]

(assuming the dps is good)

[gusty mirage]

Goal is to make Ryfie proud and beat Whispyr on the area 52 sin leaderboards after he robbed me last season

[stoic needle]

if they fix sudden fractures not scaling with mastery

[cerulean nest]

I'll wait for simlords to finish simlording but yeah if sin stacks up to outlaw in keys and maintains raid BIS then like... I ain't switching

[silent stratus]

so I will fok -> rup -> sbs -> rup -> sbs -> gar -> rup

probably

something along those lines

[stoic needle]

it's very possible deathspike could be straight up better for sin than for outlaw

because the mastery scaling on the dot is part of the reason why it's so good now

also because it's insanely efficient CP

[mossy sable]

Hmm really

[stoic needle]

for reference, zoldyck is like 5%

so that means deathspike could be +5% over zoldyck

[gusty mirage]

[mossy sable]

I mean for Law SBS already hits off BF

[stoic needle]

i wanna play some sub in m+ next season

[shy dust]

now thats a very bold take

[mossy sable]

Oh we sendings M+ Ranks

[vital tapir]

Do IT now

[bleak sky]

mastery scaling

[mossy sable]

Get ready for shit scores

[bleak sky]

don't fall for it guys

he's trying to get us all to stack mastery

[gusty mirage]

Sub in m+ is so snore tbh

[stoic needle]

by "better" i mean "more of a % dps increase for sin than for outlaw"

Mastery nonbelievers

[mossy sable]

Checkmate

I win

Bow to me

[bleak sky]

sub is a snorefest everywhere

[gusty mirage]

I didn’t mind it in raid tbh

[stoic needle]

sub is fun

yall are capping

[gusty mirage]

It’s just shuriken storm > BP 60 times a dungeon isn’t very engaging

[mossy sable]

Outlaw = Best PvP spec

[bleak sky]

not top 5 in my raids = not fun

[shy dust]

well

thats only in mass aoe

[stoic needle]

just wait until next tier

[gusty mirage]

Yeah true

[stoic needle]

sub is within 1% of sin now

venthyr anyway

[mossy sable]

Does this mean Law will take bottom position next tier?

[gusty mirage]

I like sub a lot, but I think I just miss the old Shuriken storm funnel

[stoic needle]

[gusty mirage]

I thought it was a cool little niche

And I’ve confirmed my suspicions I’m actually terrible at outlaw. I consistently do more damage as assa in m+

[mossy sable]

RIP

[limber lion]

It is the ultimate spec after all.

[mossy sable]

I have the opposite in ST

[limber lion]

[mossy sable]

I do more damage as Outlaw ST then Sin

Like I can't even get close

[gusty mirage]

Also it’s the most fun playing zold and watching everyone teeter off in dps toward the end of the boss and end up below me

[stoic needle]

idk how man sin ST is so easy

[mossy sable]

Thats what everyone says

[scenic meteor]

ok so should i use doomblade for everything and then zoldyck for m+ and aoe raid bosses?

[mossy sable]

Yet I suck ass at it

[stoic needle]

yes

[mossy sable]

I mean I pull up near the end with Zold

But in raid for example my parse on heroic was like 40 something on every fight I did

Or lower

[thorny pond]

Zold is the ultimate "gotcha" moment when people think they're gonna beat you.

Logs?

[stoic needle]

you're probably holding cds and not having good bleed uptime

that's the only way you can do badly as sin

[mossy sable]

Probobly I mean I am bad

I just do not understand it

[thorny pond]

Link your logs chief

[gusty mirage]

I had like 12s of downtime on hakkar in a dos yesterday because of the shit on the ground and ended up going up in dps because he was below 30%

[thorny pond]

I love just doing nothing and being 30% better

Ask for banner from your necro warrior and pop IQD mastery and see some big #s fly

[mossy sable]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yqKd83RrL1h4DNC6#boss=-2&difficulty=0&source=33&view=rankings Also on Shriek I forgot to apply poisons

Cause shortly before I was outlaw and swapped to Sin

[gusty mirage]

I’m a little haste heavy for my liking in m+ rn but that’s because I legit have very little mastery gear

[mossy sable]

Fuck you

Thats my dream

Swap gear

[thorny pond]

Same honestly. I have nearly 1k haste with crit gems/chants

[gusty mirage]

Running around in raid gear because my other option is heavy vers lmao

[stoic needle]

h well

your ilvl is really low for starters

[gusty mirage]

And echoing blades isn’t coming back anytime soon so vers isn’t as juicy as it once was

[mossy sable]

Yeah it's my offspec and my best siming gear is low ilvl for it

[thorny pond]

Gonna put together some meme sets here soon with crit/haste and mastery/crit for big boy memes

[stoic needle]

your garotte and rupture uptime could use some work

[mossy sable]

Mmk

[scenic root]

I have a 235 doom and haven't made zold yet( I mostly raid assassin and outlaw m+) should I use a 235MA or make a 190 Zold and use that if I'm doing m+ as assassin

[stoic needle]

and you're holding shiv a tiny bit

[stoic needle]

it's not gonna be a huge difference either way. legendary ilvl doesn't matter that much

technically i guess the MA would be better because MA and zoldyck are already pretty close

[thorny pond]

@mossy sable Looking at hungering, your gar uptime is pretty low, rupture could be up a little better, look to refresh dots before you can't be in melee range

[silent stratus]

@stoic needle because SBS, I shouldnt fok to gain CPs and do 2-3 rupture to small adds, right?

[mossy sable]

I am sure some of the times I missed bleeds was just not paying attention but I also feel like I never have any energy or CP

[scenic root]

And if I run MA, should I run EP?

[silent stratus]

I can just simply SBS -> rupture - what do you think?

[stoic needle]

yeah just sbs>rupture

[silent stratus]

for big one, 5cp rupture?

[stoic needle]

if it'll live the full duration sure

so since sbs gives more cp with each use ideally you'd sbs > rupture it last

small > small > big

[silent stratus]

true that's good

[thorny pond]

Bleed uptimes = more energy

[silent stratus]

but I should garrote him too

[stoic needle]

yeah

[mossy sable]

Gotcha

[silent stratus]

and then go full on inerva right?

because that's for prog

what matters

[gusty mirage]

Yeah

[scenic root]

Depends on team dps/strat. We cleave down big add and don't focus it. So 5cp rup and gar/sbs.

[thorny pond]

Garrote is basically free, make sure you pandemic refresh them. Core of sin

[mossy sable]

So I kinda am confused if you need bleeds up to get energy but need energy to use bleeds

[gusty mirage]

Dot up adds and full send on inerva

[mossy sable]

How does that work?

[gusty mirage]

Well you naturally recover energy

[thorny pond]

Bleed ticks on poisoned enemies give energy

Venomous wounds in your spellbook

[gusty mirage]

Bleeds give you additionally energy

[mossy sable]

Right but natural energy regen without bleeds seems so slow

[thorny pond]

So if you have 2 bleeds out you get x energy, 4 bleeds on 2 targets gets you more

[gusty mirage]

It is slow

[thorny pond]

It's supposed to punish you for not having them up

[mossy sable]

So if a bleed runs out are you really just kinda fucked?

[thorny pond]

You have 7s for garote and 8ish for rupture to pandemic refresh

[gusty mirage]

It’s slow for all 3 specs, the others just have different passives to help you with it. While assa requires bleeds on poisoned targets to trigger theirs

[thorny pond]

that's #1 priority is keep them up

I assume you use some type of tracker via weakauras or even nameplates

[mossy sable]

Both

[thorny pond]

Set those up to glow or change color during pandemic windows, that's when you want to refresh

[mossy sable]

Hmm ok

[thorny pond]

Most of the packs here do that automatically

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[mossy sable]

I'll see what I can strip out of those

[thorny pond]

But basically once you get closer to 100% uptime on bleeds single target smooths out

You have plenty of haste, way more than i did at 212

[mossy sable]

Most of that comes from my Outlaw gear

I am 217 Outlaw

[thorny pond]

Even so, extra crits also smooth it out. Taking advantage of some more advanced stuff can help a lil bit

But get that down first

[stoic needle]

The bleeds give back more energy than you spend on them

[mossy sable]

Ah

My first big issue with the spec is I spent like all my time on garrote and rupture upkeep

And forgot about Envenom

So I was doing like 2k dps

[gusty mirage]

In single target?

[mossy sable]

Yeah

I fixed that but now I forget about Rupture/Garrote

[gusty mirage]

Then you’re refreshing your bleeds way too early

[mossy sable]

I used to do that

For outlaw it took me idk

When did raid come out? January

[shy dust]

December

[mossy sable]

Ok so yeah took me about 5 months to start to get down Outlaw

Only the last month or so have I really grasped it

I hope it doesn't take as long for Sin

[shy dust]

well sin is a much simpler spec so hopefully not

[mossy sable]

Hopefully

With how my brain works I have to get muscle memory down to a science

Like if I have to think about it at all I fail more or less

[stoic needle]

well with sin you have time to think

you're supposed to think

[mossy sable]

I mean it's not that I don't think at all

But in real life for example

[stoic needle]

to consider the boss mechanics to know whether you need to refresh things early or not

[mossy sable]

Idk which way the turn signal needs to go to go right or left

I just have the muscle memory built

I can not actually tell you which way it goes

[halcyon zealot]

[mossy sable]

Same shit with outlaw now

I just go off visuals, sound, and muscle memory for most things

[thorny pond]

A lil more cognition may be best

[mossy sable]

I'm pretty dumb

My memory is shit

[thorny pond]

So am I. Don't sell yourself short

I play sin because I'm stupid asf

[mossy sable]

I mean

To be fair

I could just play a Hunter or DH

Way easier

[thorny pond]

You think I have big brain power for arcane

Conserve and burn windows the fuck is that

[mossy sable]

Lol burn window

What

Me hit keys

Damage go brrrrr

[ocean zodiac]

finally

@final star

there it is

[final star]

He's gone and fucking done it dude

By a LOT

holy

[mossy sable]

Wait is that the hidden blade talent?

[thorny pond]

Sire?

[mossy sable]

I thought people would run Crimson over Hidden

[fallen arch]

Legend

[balmy condor]

HB padding

Yeh

[shy dust]

P1 padding

[mossy sable]

Ah

[thorny pond]

Love the pad

[final star]

gamer

[thorny pond]

It's gorgeous

[final star]

CT is pad too

[mossy sable]

How many targets does it hit?

[final star]

[shy dust]

I mean

[balmy condor]

Fok hits 8

[ocean zodiac]

Taking poison bomb just means your raiding team stop dps couple of times

[shy dust]

you can look at logs

p1 padding

is a pretty big difference maker

[mossy sable]

ffs meanwhile I hit 5 as outlaw

Why even play outlaw

Yikes

[thorny pond]

https://tenor.com/view/started-blasting-gun-eyeglasses-so-anyway-i-started-blasting-gif-16955226

[final star]

fok is far weaker

[shy dust]

CT at least actually brings value to the entire fight

[stoic needle]

Hidden blades

[balmy condor]

I mean if you’re gonna pad, and pad hard, hb is the way to go

[daring plover]

na

[mossy sable]

lol Value?

Numbers >Value?!

[balmy condor]

CT is fairly close in single target

[final star]

HB pumper

[balmy condor]

To PB

Boss moves a lot, pb loses value

CT doesn’t seem that bad tbh

[limber lion]

CT bis

[spice spire]

CT ST the whispyr special

[thorny pond]

We have 3 mongoloid hunters that drop spirits right before waltz cast so I know the PB move feel

[mossy sable]

I had a Sin friend who ran CT in ST because of the extra dot that always stayed on

So what I am hearing is

To learn how to play with CT better

Just never Not run it?

[balmy condor]

I mean its definitely wrong on something like sludge

but if you're doing sire and he's teleporting all over the fucking place