wrong spec 😛
#assassination
vestal wren
summer socket
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
gusty mirage
I need to wrap these cases up 
granite sail
I'm just wondering how to rogues have stealth like lower wise is it magic or what
limber lion
I don't understand the question
icy ember
same
gusty mirage
We yell I’m invisible really loud and everyone closes their eyes and pretends we are
icy ember
im pretty sure it is physical stealth, like they super sneaky beaky like
gusty mirage
im pretty sure it is physical stealth, like they super sneaky beaky like
Wait a second this isn’t csgo 
balmy condor
does it matter?
icy ember
🤓 i believe they are assassin rogues
gusty mirage
I still think my theory is spot on
lofty estuary
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
leaden garden
Hey everyone! Assa is one of the strongest melees atm for ST right? That's what I have been hearing. How does it look for m+?
kind talon
its very good for ST, potentially the best melee spec for raid ST dps. However, it's outclassed by outlaw in M+. That being said, you can do well as assassination rogue at high key levels as well.
leaden garden
Cheers 🙂
kind talon
👍
stoic needle
In more detail: Assassination and Outlaw do very similar damage in m+ at the moment, with assasination being better for St, 2 target cleave, and high target(8+) aoe, while outlaw is better at 4-5 target aoe. Outlaw has more utility in the form of the extra cc from gouge and the extra a melee range from acrobatic strikes that allows you to avoid mechanics easier. Overall Assassination seems to require more effort on the part of the player to obtain the same overall output as outlaw, and is slightly less mobile and more risky due to the shorter melee range. That's why many players use outlaw as the go to for top tier pushing because the less effort required for good output and more utility makes doing very challenging keys just a bit easier. But like poyboy said you can play Assassination fine at any level if you put in the work.
gusty mirage
@stoic needle you one of them guide writers or something?
quiet vapor
is ma a good enough legendary for trying out arena a little?
been only doing m+ outlaw
quiet vapor
oh okay thanks
gusty mirage
I’m awful at assa in arena so I won’t be much help
kind talon
MA is good
Not as good as doom blade
But it’s good
Some raid parses even have it!!
stoic needle
<@502859708504342538> you one of them guide writers or something?
I've thought about writing a sin m+ guide but I don't think I have the qualifications 
gusty mirage
Go for it. Best way to build qualifications is to do it man. You’ll also learn more just trying to plug the holes on what you think would be commonly asked questions and certain popular nuances
limber lion
I've thought about one for raiding as well, but I don't think there's any need for either to be honest.
thorny pond
I'm just wondering how to rogues have stealth like lower wise is it magic or wha...
We have quiet shoes and the floor doesn't creek where we walk
limber lion
We already have several guides written by absolute beasts which pretty much cover everything from top to bottom.
gusty mirage
Worst case no one uses it, but you’d still have a better understanding of your fav spec
thorny pond
The best way to get a mastery of something is to teach others so go for it
stoic needle
I think maybe I could contribute by recording a vod of a key and explaining why I made certain decisions and point out common mistakes
gusty mirage
I've thought about one for raiding as well, but I don't think there's any need f...
You should too. You’re a smart guy and you’re extremely helpful 
and I’d read it
limber lion
Yeah, because I thought about making one for the extreme min-maxing from simming each fight with advanced sims, to analyzing your own logs and getting every bit of dps out of your character as possible.
gusty mirage
I had one for assa m+ I started working on in s4 but got extremely lazy lol. Mine was mostly the little quirks where assa shines in the dungeons. Now it’s just a word file on my desktop forever unfinished lol
stoic needle
I'd love to read about making custom sims for each fights
thorny pond
I think maybe I could contribute by recording a vod of a key and explaining why ...
Honestly if you were to write or do something that would be best. Like break down your keys on stream then maybe produce some YT videos slowed down
The community seems to enjoy that content more than generic guides where people just ready icy veins word for word
gusty mirage
It’s a good medium to approach too because m+ is hard to pick up for people who haven’t done it before. And the resources that are there sort of assume a basic understanding
stoic needle
I think there's a lot of unexplored territory about how to min/max your character and gear for certain dungeons and certain roles within group comps that I think I could be good about explaining
thorny pond
I bet a basic "KSM for Sin Rogues" series probably gets 20k views each dungeon if the videos are good
stoic needle
Like how to gear to get a certain damage profile to support your team
Or how to be an overall whore 
solid chasm
also yo
thorny pond
Or how to be an overall whore <:GlassesGuy:757459539338723328>
Write my mastery guide please 🚀
solid chasm
iron wire is sick
stoic needle
Ooh a bunch of videos about each dungeon would be sick
gusty mirage
iron wire is sick
I’ve been saying that for like a year and a half now
solid chasm
kek
thorny pond
Iron Wire is basically us taking a piano wire and choking someone mob style
gusty mirage
Pvp
stoic needle
N 
gusty mirage
Arena is instanced 
so that one
solid chasm
it seems like itd pair well with zoldyck in my head
vast forum
no
solid chasm
fair enough
vast forum
if anything
solid chasm
xd
vast forum
EP buffs your bleeds and poisons
gusty mirage
MP seems like it should be better than it is in PVE but it’s not
vast forum
MP is either too strong or too weak
stoic needle
Your head is in the right place but MP is just bad
thorny pond
If they gave us back Agonizing Poison we would MP
vast forum
because it has 0 gameplay implications
vast forum
legion talent 🙂
thorny pond
The best
vast forum
horrible design 🙂
thorny pond
Best design
stoic needle
Imagine being stuck to one target the entire fight
And I mean literally
The entire fight
thorny pond
Yea. I hate moving
vast forum
the sin dream
stoic needle
If you swap off your dps goes to shit
shy dust
Manifested into a talent
vast forum
is 3 targets
limber lion
About talent choices
Yeah that would probably be under the min-maxing guide. But eh
vast forum
all fully dotted
solid chasm
no
thorny pond
"I can't swap. I'm boss boi. Make the DK move."
stoic needle
2 target cleave is the sin dream
thorny pond
Still requires me to switch targets
stoic needle
Tab targeting to refresh bleeds and slamming thick envenoms into one of them
vast forum
i prefer 3 targets
gusty mirage
sin dream is getting 5 cp from fok
I miss EB because you didn’t get this garbage 2cp fok
shy dust
Tab targeting to refresh bleeds and slamming thick envenoms into one of them
Nothing is thick about envenom
shy dust
I miss EB because you didn’t get this garbage 2cp fok
Yes you did
vast forum
EB had no interaction with fok CP tho
shy dust
EB Didn’t get cp
vast forum
i mean CP
gusty mirage
Yes you did
Didn’t it at one point?
shy dust
It never had an interaction with combo points
vast forum
so u got proper CPs anyway
shy dust
It did boost crit value in aoe scenarios
shy dust
Yes
vast forum
ye
gusty mirage
Ah
stoic needle
Nothing is thick about envenom
It can be
vast forum
although i played without EB 😄
gusty mirage
The nostalgia glasses strike again
shy dust
M+ set was like all crit mastery
vast forum
remember this conversation ? 🙂 @balmy condor
shy dust
The EB is a padding trait conversation?
limber lion
vast forum
not exactly padding
shy dust
I remember the TTK conversations
vast forum
ttk was a kekw conversation
shy dust
Do you remember all the people preaching how it was a large prio gain
Then Fuu simmed it
And it was barely worth anything
vast forum
but having a fire mage and a bm hunter meant that focusing on ST was mostly better 😄
at least until +25 keys
vast forum
3x SS, 2x HoD, BBI was HUGE for m+
small pulls + bosses = pamp
full haste set in junkyard was also giga fun 🙂
shy dust
They had that trait
vast forum
and our zapbots did infinite dmg
shy dust
They also ran expedient
And the trait they stacked gave haste if imo ticks on mobs above 80%
gusty mirage
I remember the TTK conversations
I remember getting flamed in here because I felt like ttk wasn’t as great as people thought it was
Lmao
kind talon
What is ss eb
shy dust
It sounded great
kind talon
Oh
shy dust
But the sims for it did not support it being a large prio gain
kind talon
Ye
gusty mirage
hod was stonks though
vast forum
ye
kind talon
Gcb?
vast forum
this was a +25 junkyard with full haste 😄
gusty mirage
Gale caller’s boon
vast forum
ye
kind talon
Ye
gusty mirage
Yeah with the area of effect on the ground
kind talon
Broketh
shy dust
I’m still very sure destro was the best
kind talon
Assa rogue
shy dust
But that requires bringing
kind talon
Yes destro was the best
gusty mirage
this was a +25 junkyard with full haste 😄
I miss those days 
shy dust
A warlock to a key
kind talon
Remember pvp?
shy dust
So 
vast forum
gushing wounds kekw
kind talon
Warlock on the enemy team
gusty mirage
I got to 1700 in pvp in s4 and never queued again lol
kind talon
Literally die in 3 seconds
solid chasm
im so glad there was a number squish
vast forum
i pushed 2.4k in arena for the legendary essence just thanks to gushing 😄
hpriest destro lock was just fuckin insane tho
shy dust
That was a very annoying season
Assa in PvP is generally annoying
You just traim someone down
quasi steppe
is doomblade or zoldyck the best for m+?
stoic needle
Boy if you don't get
stoic needle
Yeah and nobody will use it because it's got no ST 
stoic needle
I swear to fuck if they nerf it and don't just change it for outlaw
kind talon
kind talon
Osh it’s blizzardo what do you expect
limber lion
stoic needle
I will delete my outlaw legendaries in protest
kind talon
I fucking wish it did anything for ST lmfao
limber lion
Good
solid chasm
just do it anyways
kind talon
Then I’d just deathspike all content ez
shy dust
I fucking wish it did anything for ST lmfao
Specialized legos are fine
I’m not a fan of legos you use in every situation
limber lion
Ye same
stoic needle
It would be cool if each spike hit the main target if there were no others
kind talon
I think that’s a really good design space personally
stoic needle
At like 25% dmg or something
kind talon
With bis ST AOE and cleave leggos
stoic needle
I mean outlaw has 5
shy dust
It’s better than one lego for all situations sure
stoic needle
That are all viable
stoic needle
Because people are dumb
?
kind talon
Deathspike would literally be no st gain
shy dust
deathly is a meme
kind talon
MA Cele GS Guile
Deathly is fine too
Good for getting max cp snd before pull as sub rogue :>
gusty mirage
Good for getting max cp snd before pull as sub rogue :>
kind talon
Push does it
gusty mirage
But... premed
gusty mirage
Push is built different tbh
kind talon
Bro it’s literally Chinese combo point exploit
shy dust
No
gusty mirage
And no I don’t want the log, I will not be baited to go sub again
shy dust
The Chinese are built different for logs
gusty mirage
kind talon
True
shy dust
The things they will do for high parses
undone scroll
Should use zdick on lady iverna
stoic needle
deathly is a meme
I mean it's within 1% of celerity, so it's viable. We're talking about what's viable, not what's bis
gusty mirage
Should use zdick on lady iverna
No use doom. It’s still primarily a ST fight
shy dust
Inerva is basically a st fight
Just pump the boss and dot the adds
You don’t need the execute on the adds
undone scroll
Okay so no difference in talents ether?
gusty mirage
No difference
stoic needle
Ep can work
limber lion
EP/Vig for the boys.
stoic needle
Because you get the energy from the adds
gusty mirage
EP/Vig for the boys.
Join us as a stinky boy
limber lion
Join us as a stinky boy
limber lion
stoic needle
kind talon
Am I supposed to go vigor with ep?
undone scroll
Should I worry about the muttilate dot on adds or just poison rupture and garrote
stoic needle
Ep/vigor on all content gaming
kind talon
📈
stoic needle
Literally a 10 dps difference
limber lion
I'm swapping in a bit, but I'm too busy with irl stuff atm and PoE whenever I'm on the computer
so I don't have time to grind renown for raids.
kind talon
You’re the computer?
gusty mirage
I get it
limber lion
Don't really wanna go to raid with 12 renown
kind talon
Cev SWAPPED?????
limber lion
limber lion
Not yet.
limber lion
Where hasn't he touched me?
stoic needle
I touched him with my serrated bone spike 
kind talon
True
stoic needle
Right in the mastery
gusty mirage
I touched him with my serrated bone spike <a:wiggleseyebrows:669517190403194892>
I hate it here
limber lion
But yeh, I'm like the only venthyr sin boy here
kind talon
kind talon
LOL
oak cypress
im venthyr but im a fresh baby sin so yah know
stoic needle
Once you bone spike you never go back
fervent beacon
The only venthyr sin?
kind talon
Yeah tbh flag is fucking pooper
fervent beacon
kind talon
FLAG IS POOPER CHANGE MY MIND
gusty mirage
All the cool kids are necro now
Not possible, osh and I are necro and we’re the furthest thing from cool
fervent beacon
It's based as F
limber lion
Not possible, osh and I are necro and we’re the furthest thing from cool
What'chu on about, you're super cool 
kind talon
Does it own the libs?
kind talon
Not possible, osh and I are necro and we’re the furthest thing from cool
Oxi you’re a g
dark jewel
for necro boys is it worth running shiv conduit or the sbs bleeds 2nd time one
gusty mirage
I’m a boomer who has terrible memory
shy dust
for necro boys is it worth running shiv conduit or the sbs bleeds 2nd time one
Sim it bruh
halcyon zealot
i think i might go the Kojack route and level a 2nd rogue and have one venth one necro, like both covs too much to keep gimping myself from the other
kind talon
for necro boys is it worth running shiv conduit or the sbs bleeds 2nd time one
They are almost identical in dps on a sim
shy dust
Fractured wins for me
shy dust
i think i might go the Kojack route and level a 2nd rogue and have one venth one...
Then you have to hear a 2nd rogue
kind talon
Fractures at 213 beats my 200 shiv conduit by a bit
shy dust
Which will take you quiet some time
halcyon zealot
ok
halcyon zealot
i play this game 10 hours a day ill get the gear lol
we also do alt mythic clears of 8/10 so i can beef him up fast
plain thistle
gearing alts with mythic re clear this late in the tier is super nice, no one needs item
you get everything 😂
halcyon zealot
yeah and half my guild is boomy alts - it’s all leather always
shy dust
Investing in moonkin alts 
tight ginkgo
How fast does thrill seeker decay out of combat inbetween m+ pulls, typically?
strange python
im switching back to venthyr
shy dust
Venthyr is a very nice pick for parsing this tier
strange python
yeah i got all covenants to 40 now
and i have to trial for a new guild now so might as well
strange python
yeah ive enjoyed leveling every covenant
shy dust
I do miss flag
strange python
every time its just pure joy
gusty mirage
Only covenant I’m missing is fae kek
halcyon zealot
yeah i got all covenants to 40 now
mad man. i’m 3/4 and cba doin kyrian
dark jewel
if im running CT and trying to keep my bleeds up in 3 targets, on shiv windows do I ignore reapplying dots and just mutilate/envenom or try to keep dots up? thinking of mythic slg
smoky inlet
compact pumice
Either is fine
halcyon zealot
whatever button you like pressing most between sbs, flag, and sepsis - all covs are within 1-2%
it’s a very slight optimization for rogue
limber lion
if im running CT and trying to keep my bleeds up in 3 targets, on shiv windows d...
You always keep bleeds up, that is #1 priority.
You slam the Shiv and continue applying bleeds.
You only Envenom if all of the targets around you (which live long enough for the bleed to matter) are already bleeding (by Rup/Gar/CT)
prisma carbon
does feint work on blood price or anything else in p3?
halcyon zealot
feint works on anything that is AOE damage
limber lion
Not necessarily true.
halcyon zealot
oh? what’s an example of an AOE ability it doesn’t work on? i didn’t know that
sudden hound
blood price for sure is not affected by feint
limber lion
EP and Vigor
EP is more reliable damage and burst during the pillar window, Vigor allows you to pool better before the pillar, which results in better burst.
silent stratus
@limber lion should I hold vanish for pillar?
I hold vanish + vendetta on pull I guess
also do u keep bleeds up on council
for procs?
sudden hound
sludge you CD pull+2+4
stoic needle
Fuck kyrian
silent stratus
sludge you CD pull+2+4
CD = vanish and vendetta and trinket?
limber lion
<@!165215952479322112> should I hold vanish for pillar?
You use everything on pull, on 2nd pillar and 4th. You hold Shiv/Vanish/Vend/Flag for pillars.
sudden hound
and only shiv once between pillars
limber lion
You use one Shiv between pillars.
limber lion
also do u keep bleeds up on council
On one extra target, yes.
silent stratus
no shiv on pull?
stoic needle
if im running CT and trying to keep my bleeds up in 3 targets, on shiv windows d...
I feel like for mythic slg you should let the bleeds drop to keep pumping as much damage as you can into the Goliaths or the boss, but that's in a prog scenario. If you're trying to parse on reclear you should probably refresh
limber lion
no shiv on pull?
You do use Shiv twice before first pillar
Then once on every pillar and once between pillars.
silent stratus
Thanks
stoic needle
Use vendetta as your 2nd gcd
silent stratus
and I hold vanish + vendetta on pull?
stoic needle
Like mut> snd+vendetta
limber lion
and I hold vanish + vendetta on pull?
Read what I said earlier.
stoic needle
And then gar mut rupture shiv vanish
You need to use your CDs early so they're up before the 2nd pillar instead of in the middle of it
keen tree
Can someone remind me how we sim for m+ for the purposes of choosing gear? Outlaw is dungeon slice but from what i remember that is not good for Sin.
balmy condor
we use dungeonslice
keen tree
oh! that great. thx.
silent stratus
Read what I said earlier.
It's not clear because you also same hold x/.. for pillars
Also I used vendetta on pull and I didnt have it on 1st pillar
halcyon zealot
well that’s how time works
vendetta is a 2minute CD pillars happen every ~1 minute
silent stratus
so I guess I'll have vendetta on 2nd and 4th only
halcyon zealot
if your group is doing 4 pillars, you vend opener/2/4
yes
it’s either that or 1/3
silent stratus
is it better to 1/3 if we BL on 3?
vast forum
no
halcyon zealot
idk why you’re lusting on 3 unlsss you’re killing it as it’s hitting 4th
vast forum
also, BLing on 3 is literally inting
halcyon zealot
which is sounds like ur not
keen tree
my guild lusts on three (hc)
vast forum
hc is a different story
silent stratus
we are bling on 1st now
vast forum
do your officers have any idea how to look up strats
or are they super proud of their own strategy
like "i can probably do better than the 1000 guilds with better prog than ours"
actually 3000 guilds killed sludge
halcyon zealot
yeah i’m usually not opposed to lusting at various times during progression to help see a certain phase or mechanic, on a fight like SLG could be an example where it could help you see further into the fight BUT
vast forum
but your officers are probably better than all of those
halcyon zealot
i don’t think an early lust on sludge is doing anything good, it’s honestly probably bad
halcyon zealot
honestly at this point i’m down for them to just make it the lfr version on all difficulities
erase the fight
it’s not really even that “hard” anymore it’s just super tedious
vast forum
it's still hard for a lot of guilds, but i agree, fights where you afk for 30+ seconds are horribly designed
halcyon zealot
yeah this raid has had a lot of that too, even early bosses like xymox when it was still scary to push a phase too soon
silent stratus
why EP + vigor on SLG?
limber lion
why EP + vigor on SLG?
You want EP for AoE fights. EP gains more value because you get more energy and use more finishers.
vast forum
also it buffs all your dots
limber lion
Vigor also helps promote EP by allowing you to get more finishers in.
vast forum
and blindside is ST
silent stratus
If we consider it AoE, what about MfD and subterfuge?
halcyon zealot
yeah vigor and EP have nice synergy, so when EP is the play more often than not so is vigor; in my experiences
limber lion
If you have to choose between Vigor and MFD and you know that you'll play MFD poorly, you're better off choosing Vigor.
silent stratus
While I understand Vigor for Sludge, is it a significant gain also in SLG?
How do you play MfD poorly? Bad resets?
limber lion
Not using it on cooldown, not using it to get resets, using it at 2+ combo points etc.
halcyon zealot
not sniping low/lowest HP mobs with it is a way to lose value from it also
silent stratus
The basics
halcyon zealot
indeed
pliant apex
Is there a reason sin rogues end up getting poor parse/low dps rank in guild on inerva? Even while doing everything right
silent stratus
Whats the # of adds that would make MfD and CT viable in AoE fights?
pliant apex
I don’t get it is a ST fight
halcyon zealot
does HB ever beat CT
limber lion
Is there a reason sin rogues end up getting poor parse/low dps rank in guild on ...
Well, getting a bad parse means that you're not doing "everything right".
gusty mirage
Is there a reason sin rogues end up getting poor parse/low dps rank in guild on ...
A lot of mechanics is the only thing that can affect your parse if you’re doing everything else right
limber lion
Even with bad kill times you can still pull off purple parses by playing decent.
balmy condor
Is there a reason sin rogues end up getting poor parse/low dps rank in guild on ...
parses are a measure of your performance on a spec versus other people of that spec, on the same boss
pliant apex
I mean in guild other classes have always been better on inerva
Is sin a bad class for good dmg on inerva
balmy condor
oh
limber lion
Parsing better on a different class doesn't mean that it's a better class
balmy condor
I mean it's not the greatest, no
gusty mirage
I got an 81 and (6.3k overall) and I’m pretty sure I messed up my rotation horribly and got beams like every time
pliant apex
Switching to adds on inerva should help dps right
limber lion
No
pliant apex
I even try to keep up dots on inerva while adds are up
gusty mirage
No you just dot them up and continue funneling inerva
limber lion
Dotting them up and blasting Inerva will.
pliant apex
Ohhhh
limber lion
The faster you kill them, the less time you have your bleeds up on them.
gusty mirage
You essentially use them as free energy
gusty mirage
Yep
pliant apex
Dam no wonder even heroic logs suck
steel geyser
Do you guys even bother to dot the small adds on inerva?
pliant apex
Thought I was being real good
gusty mirage
Toss a fat rupture on the big add and just funnel inerva
limber lion
Do you guys even bother to dot the small adds on inerva?
Small rupture, nothing else
halcyon zealot
yeah and depending on your immunes and how fast you blow up the condemn add it may not even be worth to bleed it
pliant apex
And casting add? Toss nothing?
gusty mirage
Do you guys even bother to dot the small adds on inerva?
If you have the global you could snipe a low rupture on it
halcyon zealot
maybe a 1-2cp rup
gusty mirage
Cuz it should melt ASAP as it’s prio for mostly everyone
pliant apex
Ooooo sneaky sneaky I like heheh
Shhh gotcha
I blow cds on adds even no wonder
I’ll just throw a rupture on big guy
halcyon zealot
ya that’s a no no
limber lion
Also heroic kills are mainly down to kill times.
pliant apex
And then wonder how come I’m no 13 on dps from no 3 on prev boss (hungering)
gusty mirage
And then wonder how come I’m no 13 on dps from no 3 on prev boss (hungering)
Yeah you’re just CDing the wrong thing 🙂
pliant apex
Adds come I won’t do shit, won’t even interrupt till someone shouts at me
limber lion
8.3 is big
It's r1
pliant apex
Ahhh
pliant apex
Ye I am
gusty mirage
Nah def interrupt it make a focus kick macro and set focus to the small add
limber lion
Or you have awful gear.
pliant apex
No. Gear ok now I’m like 220
gusty mirage
That way you don’t have to switch targets 
pliant apex
Idk.. that’ll confuse me fuck kick
But I might fail my trial naa you’re right I’ll make macro
Err how do I make focus macro
limber lion
/cast [@focus] kick
pliant apex
But how to bring them to focus when they up?
halcyon zealot
mind you with this you’ll likely want a key bind to set a target to focus
limber lion
You set that up on the keybinds.
pliant apex
How
pliant apex
Ohh /focus mobname?
pliant apex
Ahh and this’ll put them on focus not make them target?
limber lion
Yes.
pliant apex
Thanks man.
So I need to put 2 macros to keybinds
Focus and other for kick on focus
prisma monolithBOT
In general simming yourself is the recommended way to determine stat weights.
The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simulation.
Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
lusty bane
!stats
pliant apex
Is all This focus interrupt stuff difficult to do first time ?
gusty mirage
Focus and other for kick on focus
set focus & focus kick are super useful in pvp & m+ as well
gusty mirage
setting the focus with a mouseover takes a little getting used to, but focus kick is actually so nice
limber lion
I never use em but I'm a pvp scrub.
gusty mirage
yeah but you're a parsing LEGEND
glacial silo
So I thought I don't suck as assassin but suprise, i'm really bad and i wonder if anyone of you may help me figure out why
limber lion
So I thought I don't suck as assassin but suprise, i'm really bad and i wonder i...
Sure thing, just post your logs here and we'll take a look at 'em
limber lion
yeah but you're a parsing LEGEND
halcyon zealot
well on that log specifically what jumped out immediately without even diving in
is you only used SBS 6 times and Shiv 6 times
i’m not a necro rogue so idk how many sbs you should be using but i know it’s not 6
glacial silo
Thanks Rozay ! I Will try to improve on that
halcyon zealot
you wanna be pressing Shiv on cool down too
not necessarily on sludge, but in general
limber lion
@glacial silo
- You're using Mutilate at 4-5 combo points. You always use a finisher at max-1 combo points, you do not want to be building to max cp. If you get max cp with a crit, great. If you get to max-1 (4 with Vigor), that's fine as well.
- Your talent choices are awful for the fight. You should look into what other people are using on the fight and copy that. Generally on Sludge you'd want Elaborate Planning and Master Assassin, not Blindside/Subterfuge.
- Your opener is flawed and you do not want to press Ambush in the opener NOR do you want to press garrote twice in a row when playing Subterfuge. With Subterfuge you literally just garrote - muti - snd.
- You didn't use a potion. Potions are giga when combined with your cooldowns and the Sludge pillar vulnerability.
- You should be using SBS during Gemstone proc windows without ever letting them cap. On Sludgefist you would generally want to use them on the pillars for easy/cheap cp generation.
- You use your cooldowns poorly. You should be using Vendetta/Vanish/Shiv as much as possible during the encounter without losing casts. You only used Vendetta twice (lost 1 cast) and Vanish once (lost 2 casts). Always sync these two and never miss any casts.
subtle tundra
3. Your opener is flawed and you do not want to press Ambush in the opener NOR d...
G-snd-Mut
limber lion
- You're using Count the Odds. Swap your conduit my boy.
limber lion
EP + Deep + MA + PB for HC sire?
That's fine, but I would either use either EP/Vig or BS/DS.
limber lion
Thank you for your help ! I will improve myself !
No problem, good luck! 
limber lion
G-snd-Mut
No. The sim does Gar - Muti - Snd.
Or Gar - Muti - Muti - Flag - SnD as Venthyr.
silent stratus
That's fine, but I would either use either EP/Vig or BS/DS.
Full ST then?
limber lion
Full ST then?
I would go EP/Vig/CT (or EB) or full single with BS/DS/PB.
Depends on what you're trying to do.
teal bloom
@limber lion Do you have time to look at my HC artificer log too
limber lion
Just parsing, it's a stupid hc run
Then I would just go EP/MA/Vig/HB.
silent stratus
CT isnt worth it, rright? Adds die probably too fast
limber lion
<@!165215952479322112> Do you have time to look at my HC artificer log too
Sorry, I'm jumping off now but I'm sure someone else can help you out. Plenty of OG's here 
limber lion
CT isnt worth it, rright? Adds die probably too fast
CT's fine.
@teal bloom If you don't get an answer from anyone, you can send me a dm and I'll check em out tomorrow.
Sleepy time now. Good night!
teal bloom
No problem 😄
silent stratus
Then I would just go EP/MA/Vig/HB.
I saw your log w/ that build
balmy condor
Sleepy time now. Good night!
silent stratus
When to use HB?
silent stratus
No when to talent it
balmy condor
never
silent stratus
In what fights
balmy condor
no fights
halcyon zealot
on the 8.3 private server with 3x EB azerite
balmy condor
I find HB would probably not be worth even then
but that's really the only point where HB might be decent
very fast burst
(it does that terribly btw)
halcyon zealot
i’m interested in his reasoning as why HB over CT there but he’s sleep
balmy condor
I mean his reasoning is probably along the lines of p1 and p2 aoe is the biggest opportunity to pad
padding means more dps
how do you pad aoe in those phases
you need to do burst aoe
how does sin do burst aoe
HB
except the flaw in that, is that even with HB, our burst aoe is actually awful, and I would assume that you'd actually lose more damage from taking it than just running CT
halcyon zealot
i guess yeah you’d just be frontloading p1, cuz i imagine HB severely falls off in p2 and is dead in p3
balmy condor
pretty much
I think in theory, it might give you a good parse, but in actual practice, I would assume CT would just be a more consistent option
drifting cloud
pb big poop when stuff moves around all the time
and in execute sims with zold pb and ct are already basically a wash iirc
balmy condor
Yeh
halcyon zealot
CT over PB on sire assumes you’re playing Zoldyck as well right? with doomblade you’d still PB? or did i misunderstand that discussion yesterday
balmy condor
You’d probably want to play CT with doom as well
Just because of adds and aoe and movement
dense axle
Most of the logs I've seen run pb
low girder
they haven't figured it out yet
low girder
much like half the top outlaws on r.io run deathly
doesn't always mean it's better
it's slowly changing though
dense axle
Oh wow yeah it is
I'll try CT with Doom on next raid night. Last I checked it was at like 10% usage
low girder
it's mostly just kinda shitty to play in ST 
heavy trail
Some follow ups in a m+ boss fight or on single trashes or whatever, is there any advantage to using CT at all or save it for only 3+ and only 5 CP versions of it for energy efficiency right ? I just read some different things
stoic needle
Always 5cp, use it in st as long as shiv isn't up
heavy trail
Thanks Osh.
Getting pretty cozy with my toon now. Dumping out on some higher ilevels I get that to a certain extent, it's how well they know/research just like me (So I am not under some delusion that I am a god) , but it's nice to do well.
stoic needle
yup, gear can't carry you to a good overall
it's nice to dunk on people who are more geared than you for sure
heavy trail
What''s usually the most difference sometimes is damage taken lol. I am usually pretty good especially on DOS haha 🙂
frigid kestrel
Ye, that’s my high in PUG keys. Beating a higher IO/ilvl meta class in overall. You just don’t know how good it feels to beat a Convoke chicken or Fire Mage....... although beating a mage is super fucking hard and usually means they played like shit.
strange python
There's a lot of factors to the meters in keys. It's often not as simple as "man I so good. You bad"
gusty mirage
what about when I say "man I so bad, you so good" ?
strange python
Lol. Same thing 
frigid kestrel
What? You mean having the highest damage taken, most deaths, and zero interrupts while doing the highest DPS doesn’t mean your good?
Also, I get what your saying and I take all that into account on the levels of feel good I get.
stoic needle
damage taken? that's a healers job
interrupts? tanks, please
me make big number
zug zug
thorny pond
I need discords opinion: my guild keeps making me tank on my DH. Pull the toxic move and delete it so they have to bring my rogue?
loud light
I need discords opinion: my guild keeps making me tank on my DH. Pull the toxic ...
I don't think that would go over very well
thorny pond
Rather be benched than tank tbf
halcyon zealot
biggest mistake i made this xpac was log on my DK for the first time. i know the struggle
strange python
what part of assa kit does sbs interact with?
oak cypress
i feel dumb
you can put shadowcore oil on both weapons?
i thought it just went on one
stoic needle
we agi pot +stone gang
light surge
Sims put them pretty much even
halcyon zealot
to just simply answer ur question: yes you can put oil on both weps
oak cypress
ty
frigid kestrel
Sims for Oils and Stones changed for me overtime.
Oils use to some higher, but now Stones sim more
stoic needle
if i was trying to parse
halcyon zealot
but in practice theres too much rng, i aways stone agi
strange python
does sbs do anything with sin's bleed interactions? I play outlaw mostly
balmy condor
Doomblade is buffed, and the dot is affected by our mastery
frigid kestrel
So I know I asked this question a loooonnnggg time ago but I forgot the answer because I’m stupid and wasn’t Necro.
balmy condor
Classic
mighty bolt
On shiv windows we use sbs as our primary cp generator even in pure ST?
mighty bolt
Only?
balmy condor
I mean, primarily
frigid kestrel
Does Exsanguinate work with SBS? 
frigid kestrel
Wack
balmy condor
That was a wild 3 days on ptr though when it did
Just exsang a training dummy until the server crashes
Good times
mighty bolt
On single target, second aplicattion of crit sbs grants us 3cp?
balmy condor
Yes
mighty bolt
And do we try to line shiv with gemstones if are a few globals? Or just cd
strange python
are the pinned sims saying that venthyr pulls ahead in aoe when you pass 25% crit?
cerulean nest
just tried heroic sire on sin. felt like shit lol
was doing way less in p1 and p2 than I wanted
balmy condor
are the pinned sims saying that venthyr pulls ahead in aoe when you pass 25% cri...
I’m not sure what pin would tell you that
strange python
I’m not sure what pin would tell you that
the picture with nf korayn but venthyr
balmy condor
Yes, korayn is night fae
strange python
for the first few secs of a pull
balmy condor
strange python
i thought it was simming venthyr but with korayn's trait to simulate 25% crit
so it's just simming sepsis?
balmy condor
Why would I sim venthyr with a soulbind that venthyr can’t use
red bloom
i am also confused
balmy condor
The night fae profile is using korayn
The rest uses the same profile as the other sims it did
The change is only for fae
strange python
ah okay
stoic needle
whyspir
where deathspike dslice ptr sims 
speaking of beating boomkins, this key would've been insane if it hadn't been a deplete
halls 18
could've gotten 7k easy
balmy condor
where deathspike dslice ptr sims <a:peeporiot:754504511351160946>
Unethical, waiting for nerfs
stoic needle
Unethical, waiting for nerfs
tell me more 
low girder
imagine hitting double digits being unethical
stoic needle
over 10% better than zoldyck?
low girder
we've been such an honest spec
balmy condor
No like over no legendary
low girder
oh
balmy condor
You can imagine
stoic needle
red bloom
I would like 8.3 lock/hunter level of power plz
low girder
i guess it's increased since the last time
lol
it was only like 2% over MA on dungeonslice
last i saw
balmy condor
Death spike?
low girder
yeah
balmy condor
Yeh idk
balmy condor
Only thing I did was replace the power on the dudes ring from celerity to death spike
And it was 5% up
low girder
lmao god damn
low girder
wonder if koji's done some stuff with it
balmy condor
It’s possible
low girder
since then
balmy condor
I’m at work on mobile
low girder
ah
balmy condor
So I don’t have the sim
stoic needle
we already pump on ST even with some of our worst ST legendaries so i feel like it still might be useable
low girder
that was his original sim
on thursday or whatever
you did say celerity though, i said MA lol
stoic needle
i'm wet
mighty bolt
Last question of the night, if I shiv on sire p2 while cabalists up, do I sbs sire for shiv bonus damage or cabalísts for extra cp?
stoic needle
sbs doesn't do nature damage
low girder
it's definitely going to be unethical on things like bosses if there's multitarget the whole time
mighty bolt
Then why we sbs on shiv windows?
balmy condor
it's definitely going to be unethical on things like bosses if there's multitarg...
If it’s 5% above cele on dungeonslice Just imagine sustained aoe
stoic needle
because it's efficient CP
low girder
If it’s 5% above cele on dungeonslice Just imagine sustained aoe
yeah that's what i mean lol
mighty bolt
More than mut?
stoic needle
way more
stoic needle
sbs is 15 energy, mut is 50. mut can give up to 4 cp, sbs can give 5
mighty bolt
But on single target it gives up to 3
But yeah energy is way more
Didn’t thought about it
reef axle
that venth leggo seems sooooooo good for st
stoic needle
it makes your shiv windows feel so nice, i enjoy it alot
balmy condor
that venth leggo seems sooooooo good for st
It’s like 2% behind doomblade
Roughly on par with tiny toxic
low girder
yeah it's not that good once it's bugfixed
reef axle
though venth still lookin to be go to raid i would hope
low girder
is it actually doubling the haste btw
reef axle
based on gap within ptr sims
balmy condor
is it actually doubling the haste btw
Yes
stoic needle
imagine if they make it stay that way because it's bad if they don't 
low girder
lmfao
balmy condor
They added the vers %
And that’s fine
But they like copy pasted the effect or something
So it’s 2% haste on ptr
balmy condor
though venth still lookin to be go to raid i would hope
For single target for sure will be
low girder
yeah NF one is the same way, you'll overwrite procs with jack of all trades, it's just not noticeable because they're full duration
so they just copy pasted but now it's shit
balmy condor
Well anyone who builds the night fae one un-ironically has brain hemorrhoids anyways
Not like it matters
stoic needle
if it was a full 20s duration would it be good?
balmy condor
if it was a full 20s duration would it be good?
It might be middle of the pack
low girder
i think even if they bugfixed and made it literally jack of all trades
it might still not beat doomblade
stoic needle
i would be salty if night fae is the only covenant that gets the JOAT leggo
balmy condor
Yeah it’s possible
balmy condor
I have no idea
low girder
yeah
balmy condor
All I know is going 8->20 is not going to help
stoic needle
rip
low girder
tldr it's bad and needs a rework
mighty bolt
20s + true stealth?
kind talon
what do i do on council opener?
spread short ruptures with garrotes and then spam fok > ct?
balmy condor
20s + true stealth?
I don’t see the stealth adding 5%
kind talon
w EP?
stoic needle
council is a single target fight
balmy condor
You never spam ep
low girder
you'd just force subterfuge probably
balmy condor
Fuck
low girder
that's about all it would change
stoic needle
do it like huntsman
balmy condor
Council is just a glorified single target fight
kind talon
ye ik
stoic needle
but you save vendetta until after the first attendant imo
kind talon
but on huntsman i use ep ct so
u think PB better for prog?
wondering about talent choice
stoic needle
you can do EP on council if you reliably keep bleeds up on the 2nd
low girder
it doesn't proc VW or anything so if it's only doing dmg on target
stoic needle
yeah ct isnt useful on council because most of the damage it'd do wouldnt matter
low girder
PB sounds better
kind talon
oop
stoic needle
lmao
mighty bolt
It changes a bit
low girder
i mean maybe CT
kind talon
sunking opener?
stoic needle
for sun king if you're going for shield damage which you should you'd probably run PB
if you're padding you can do CT
low girder
yeah
kind talon
id assume the sunking opener is like
Garrote 1 garrote 2 garrote 3 rupture 4 vendetta exsanguinate then you're gonna fok fok rupture again you're gonna vanish reapply garrotes, especially on the target you dont have and that's it, you're gonna ct, crimson tempest. Look at my damage right now fucking 40k dude it's fucking over how the fuck let's go
but idk
low girder
lmfao
stoic needle
i think EP still works because its more burst damage
stoic needle
i mean tbh u could probably just run MA
like I run MA on slg because nothing lives the duration of gar
stoic needle
and u can actually pretend to be a sub rogue when you vanish in the middle of all of the enemies and fok > env > fok > env
esp with IQD
kind talon
stoic needle
100% crit FOK
kind talon
sub rogue roleplay
stoic needle
its actually sick
mighty bolt
If u are progressing the fight, u want MA for vanish burst shields
So master assassin
Prob fits better
stoic needle
yeah dashing would def be the play for sk
kinda wish i'd crafted dashing instead
just because it does 99% of the damage without the ramp up time
mighty bolt
Guys btw, on p1 of sire with doomblade, it’s worth to use fok over mut when I don’t have master assassin up or gemstones active?
I feel like it grants really low cp
stoic needle
like im prob gonna craft dashing and doomspike as my first 2 leggos for 9.1
balmy condor
Guys btw, on p1 of sire with doomblade, it’s worth to use fok over mut when I do...
Fok on 4+ targets
low girder
4+ targets it's worth
stoic needle
if the adds are up it's worth
low girder
the very first one i actually do that with MA
i'm holding cds at the end of p1 anyway
stoic needle
🥜
shell kettle
Holy fuck so i havnt played this spec in like 8 years and after trying it for a few hours i just discovered garrote isnt a stealth ability anymore
stoic needle
shell kettle
I was wondering how people got a gazillion garrotes out on logs
stoic needle
secret stealth hack
mighty bolt
the only time you ever get 2 envenoms in the MA window as venthyr
I’m necro so 😝
mighty bolt
ep?
low girder
Holy fuck so i havnt played this spec in like 8 years and after trying it for a ...
elaborate planning
oops
didn't mean to reply there lol
shell kettle
btw wowhead suggests to open with mut if speccing master assassin, but.. doesnt ambush do like double the damage at the same cost? Whats the logic behind that?
low girder
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
mighty bolt
But on sire I don’t want the free ambush on p3?
old depot
Do sins take MFD for M+? or is it preference
balmy condor
Do sins take MFD for M+? or is it preference
Usually vigor
But if you really like mfd, go for it
old depot
nah i could use less buttons lol
kind talon
But on sire I don’t want the free ambush on p3?
ye u do
low girder
But on sire I don’t want the free ambush on p3?
all depends if you're worried about the p3 dmg. i'm just doing ST build + CT with zoldyck. EP/Vigor + Doomblade is better for overall dmg but worse in p3
mighty bolt
I’m progressing fight+going on doomblade
low girder
progression i'd probably go normal build
mighty bolt
So prolly my 19 teammates want me to pump as much as I can on p3
stoic needle
well if you're worried about p3 you should use zold
old depot
Reccomendation for conduits for Sin M+? is it double potency nadjia>?
shell kettle
<:patnut:705526169901990028>
Lmao, i mean im just looking at numbers and they didnt add up even counting doomblade dot
Just a logical question with no direct answer in the pins :p
stoic needle
Reccomendation for conduits for Sin M+? is it double potency nadjia>?
wasteland propriety theotar
old depot
o ok thanks
stoic needle
the mastery proc is 
in m+
low girder
that's why it's a bot command instead lol
that command has saved him so much headache
shell kettle
Yerp, it does make sense i just didnt see it
mighty bolt
Is not like I’m worried only about p3, but I care about it
low girder
doomblade is probably fine. cev used it on first kill. all depends on comp
mighty bolt
And I’m not playing damage on any mini boss and we phasing boss 40.5% on timer
Also no soul ashes for zoldyc and I’m not in the thorgast mood
balmy condor
Lmao, i mean im just looking at numbers and they didnt add up even counting doom...
Yeah I know, it’s super counterintuitive, I just love having my words on a bot instead of explaining it over and over
Cause I’m a self centered prick like that
mighty bolt
Basically I’m just logging in for raid and doing a +14 in any dead time because guild ask for it, I’d prefer to do less dps than switching leggo RN
shell kettle
Are there any more bot commands i should read? :p
balmy condor
Uh
final fossil
Why is getting daggers so hard
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
balmy condor
Is a good one
low girder
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
In general simming yourself is the recommended way to determine stat weights.
The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simulation.
Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery