whispyr, you doing log looks? Wanna tell me what I'm doing wrong too?
#assassination
loud niche
balmy condor
which is a whopping 22ish envenoms
balmy condor
the passive that gives you cp on crits
drifting cloud
38 garrotes in 6min? 
balmy condor
38 garrotes in 6min? <:monkaW:675691826505711626>
helps when you overcap 22
that also would help your poison damage
since more envenom uptime
so really the overcap thing, fixing some cooldown/opener stuff, and slamming shiv on cooldown
hollow river
What about arty and hungering
hollow river
Gotcha gotcha
balmy condor
the uptimes are also not great
hollow river
How do you even see overlapped cp
balmy condor
tables resources combo points
balmy condor
yeh the arty uptimes are okay-ish
could still be better
hungering is killer though
low girder
the opener was mostly correct too
balmy condor
like that is uh
low girder
on xymox
balmy condor
not great
balmy condor
should look more like this
hollow river
Hungering is killer?
balmy condor
yeh the uptimes aren't great
on hungering
artificer is your best fight though
like you're still hella overcapping, but the uptimes are pretty much there, and there's nothing omega bad
just still the shiv on cooldown thing, and the overcapping
5:30 fight should expect to see 14 shivs
got 10
low girder
whispyr wtf is going on with ambush CPs on the hungering fight there
balmy condor
hm?
balmy condor
parry most likely
low girder
oof
drifting cloud
logs lie dont trust them!!
balmy condor
kinda can't be fucked digging into what it thinks is happening
balmy condor
1 ambush in 5 min is also just wrong
low girder
also that yeah
balmy condor
like I don't think there's a way that's likely
so I'm just gonna chalk it up to jank log shit
low girder
not really important just confusing af
low girder
you'll get it
hollow river
Ambush procs weren’t on my main bar period
low girder
ooo
hollow river
^^^^^^^
stoic needle
hollow river
Yep
balmy condor
still doesn't explain the 4cp from 1 ambush though
hollow river
Already
balmy condor
that one is janky
low girder
yeah i don't have a clue
hollow river
Crit passive?
balmy condor
crit would be 3
stoic needle
that would be under seal fate
low girder
seal fate has its own thing also
hollow river
Uhm
low girder
so idk
balmy condor
log bad
hollow river
:[)
balmy condor
blame blizzard
balmy condor
their combat log is fucking fried
hollow river
I’ve been playing wow again for like 3 months
So still learning logs/parses/etc and the rogue classes period
balmy condor
also excuse me
someone in your raid is running a mistcaller?
what a fucking chad of a human
make sure to thank that man
hollow river
There are a couple Beckys in the group as well 🙂
stoic needle
im pretty sure ocarina is a net raid dps gain
hollow river
I’m wearing double 226 ocarinas rn
stoic needle
if they want to why stop them 
hollow river
(This is a bad joke)
balmy condor
worldvein gottem
nah it's a good trinket but like
why run that
when you can not
stoic needle
because they're a team player 
balmy condor
fuck that
stoic needle
why
balmy condor
those don't exist
stoic needle
sure they do
hollow river
Prolly don’t sim themselves and are team players just enjoying a video game
balmy condor
where's your ocarina osh
stoic needle
bitch i'm not a team player 
balmy condor
stoic needle
my raid is lucky they're getting LBE on SLG
hollow river
Ok I’m off for the night tyvm for the help
stoic needle
man i hate SLG already
fallow otter
Any vieners in the chat
drifting cloud
now imagine everytime you break a shield under 1s that used to be a wipe
thats how I pass the time on slg
hollow river
Rofl yeah we’ll see. Still got sludge/SLG Thursday then daddy Nathria prog Saturday
Lmfao
stoic needle
we made it past the intermission 3x
low girder
also imagine the winds being 2x as strong basically
and goliaths having healing immunity debuff
fallow otter
also imagine the winds being 2x as strong basically
Yep
low girder
stoic needle
yeah we'd be in shambles
fallow otter
It's so easy now for reclear
drifting cloud
yeah atleast this version feels like a fair one
low girder
think we killed it that week too 
drifting cloud
its just the boss that is stupidly designed
low girder
and buggy as shit
we stopped seeing random blades hitting the same person 3 times though
so maybe they (mostly) fixed that part
brazen ermine
Stats for Zold? Haste crit?
wise fiber
Stats for Zold? Haste crit?
asking this too.
stoic needle
haste crit or haste vers
brazen ermine
Crit slightly better for keys i assume?
gloomy knoll
crit good for aoe yuh
stoic needle
tbh i have haste vers and haste crit zoldyck and doomblade and swapping to haste crit is a dps loss for both my ST and aoe sets
so i dont think it matters at all
undone scroll
if for whatever reason you have 5 cb shiv just came off cd do you still shiv then enveom or try and wait until you have 4
low girder
slam the shiv
undone scroll
ok thx
gusty mirage
@balmy condor I crafted zold on the recommended slot, have I made up for my past transgressions yet?
balmy condor
no
low girder
totem's pretty good for outlaw too
undone scroll
Infexious was pushing some other trinkets i can't remember now wonder if things changed since then or not as good as he appears
brittle pawn
he's shit
heavy trail
38 DOS, 3 PF
shy dust
is iqd actually good for assassination? and totem
Iqd is good and so is totem
balmy condor
Infexious was pushing some other trinkets i can't remember now wonder if things ...
infexious 
gusty mirage
is iqd actually good for assassination? and totem
totem's good for outlaw too
undone scroll
I dunno doesnt seem like a lot of people youtube rogue. Whenever I look into it the better done youtubes are dalarn who I don't fully trust and his
Guess I could look harder but eh lol
gusty mirage
problem with youtube guides is that they can quickly get outdated and a pain in the ass to update
low girder
flaming zeratule like that
balmy condor
brittle pawn
im at 32 
stoic needle
I was at 32 but now I'm down to 28% 
unreal kayak
34% crit club member here
dark crag
Did i hear 34% crit?
limber lion
Ye, Zold CT is probably the play
gloomy knoll
zdicks 100%
unless your guild runs like
3 mages and 4 hunters
lol
and 2 ww's on that fight
strange python
i ask to play sin on slg for my allstar points but raid leader says no 
sage flower
So I have a 235 MA on my alt rogue. Won't have the ash for a R1 Zoldyck for 2 weeks.
In the meantime, for M+ is it still optimal to go with the standard Subterfuge 4x Garrote opener? Or has someone found a better opener/build to utilize MA better?
safe barn
Ye, Zold CT is probably the play
cev, just out of curiosity are you and the boys already simming stuff in ptr or nah?
limber lion
cev, just out of curiosity are you and the boys already simming stuff in ptr or...
Not really. It's still too early and anything can change. We haven't seen any changes to rogue (not even small ones) and we don't have our covenant legendary, so it's safe to assume that things will change.
stoic needle
none of the new covenant stuff is on the ptr version of raidbots anyway
i tested out ct and zold for a few pulls, ct does more boss damage than pb which i found slightly suprising
limber lion
So I have a 235 MA on my alt rogue. Won't have the ash for a R1 Zoldyck for 2 we...
With MA you might want to play MFD and Nightstalker and open from stealth with MFD - CT
stoic needle
like boss damage was higher and overall was higher
balmy condor
@limber lion link ptr sims pls
safe barn
Not really. It's still too early and anything can change. We haven't seen any ch...
So, the new soulbinds don't change that much our place?
Or we dont get to 80 renown there? i dont know how it works
limber lion
So, the new soulbinds don't change that much our place?
We don't know anything yet. They might, they might not.
balmy condor
POG 9.0.5 PTR SIMS
limber lion
You asked for ptr sims
low girder
sub buffs next build 
limber lion
balmy condor
Thanks cev
limber lion
I gotchu homie
balmy condor
If you don’t do the ptr sims, who will
limber lion
Anytime
balmy condor
limber lion
Right?
safe barn
We don't know anything yet. They might, they might not.
THAT SUCKS
BLIZZ GIVE INFO PLS
limber lion
But ye, just wait a few months. Seriallos and Mystler/Koji will implement the ptr changes when they seem fit. No point doing that atm
outer lodge
my sims keep switching my mh/oh enchants... i switch, i re sim, it switches them back... 
limber lion
Not sure why everyone is soooo keen on knowing whether or not stuff will be good in 3 months or not
Not like it's gonna change anything :p
balmy condor
my sims keep switching my mh/oh enchants... i switch, i re sim, it switches them...
Why would it matter
limber lion
my sims keep switching my mh/oh enchants... i switch, i re sim, it switches them...
Doesn't really matter
outer lodge
I know but idk why it keeps switching them back and forth?
safe barn
Not sure why everyone is soooo keen on knowing whether or not stuff will be good...
ANXIETY
balmy condor
I know but idk why it keeps switching them back and forth?
Because there’s variance?
Sims aren’t accurate enough to determine differences of a fraction of a single dps
outer lodge
that's what i meant
limber lion
_ANXIETY_
Anyways, when the new sim stuff comes out eventually, you should probably ask Whispyr or Koji about them. I'm definitely not the right person to ask for ptr sims 
where
balmy condor
Anyways, when the new sim stuff comes out eventually, you should probably ask Wh...
So you’re redoing the pins right?
Thanks
limber lion
safe barn
i asked you cuz you where discussing with the boys on #tc-research and you were the last one to answer someone
safe barn
my head works like that 
balmy condor
Get new head
safe barn
Get new head <:omegakekW:634473502732320778>
That's a good solution
balmy condor
I thought so as well
safe barn
but does koji really play or just study?
balmy condor
safe barn
Then download to new head
in a few years you'll regret this joke
balmy condor
Koji’s a multi CE raider
safe barn
when skynet comes over
balmy condor
Happens
safe barn
i hope i get better once the experience starts to kick in
balmy condor
You will for sure
safe barn
safe barn
I think that's what i'm missing
started playing wow in pandaria but really started playing wow in shadowlands
reading this discord, studying and doing mythic raids
shy dust
You can obviously help yourself in this regard by looking up logs on fights to try to understand cd timing and such
But yeah fight experience is a big
safe barn
never knew that raiding is so caotic
the most i did in the past was hc raids in legion
and that wasn't that hard looking back now
gloomy fern
limber lion
Dayum.
shy dust
<a:aPES_MadTyper:718071523403104286>
Welcome brother
gloomy fern
where is the dagger
shy dust
Versus what trinket
gloomy fern
220 phial
balmy condor
<a:aPES_MadTyper:718071523403104286>
Chest for sure
gloomy fern
most likely
shy dust
220 phial
Like 40 dps
Phial used to be a 10 dps loss for me at 220
And like 40 dps gain at 226
Or something like that
gloomy fern
the suspense is killing me
stoic needle
Imagine not having raidbots premium 
gloomy fern
ok first sim was cursed cus i had wrong spec before and no socket
limber lion
Maybe a little bit of suspense is a good thing.
limber lion
here i was promised 40 dps
And 40 is what you got. Pog
40 dps is a pretty big upgrade
I want that shit
gloomy fern
no 39 
stoic needle
What'd you get Cev
iron orchid
Iqd is so sick
what wa do you use ?
limber lion
What'd you get Cev
Something that you would maybe enjoy
stoic needle
stoic needle
Something that you would maybe enjoy
limber lion
wide stone
hehehehehehhehe
limber lion
I don't know where I would use it, I guess in M+.
limber lion
Didn't want to take Stygia 4 weeks in a row
stoic needle
Yeah that's a bis m+ ring
wide stone
actually it was 3 key Phialer :^)
stoic needle
gloomy fern
power of 3 into 1, very smart
gloomy fern
i shall disenchant my 220 phial before next vault for 233 dagger 100%
stoic needle
I think so
stoic needle
though im still running 190 weps cause rng
Conquest daggers?
Ez 200
And 197 from covenant campaign
wide stone
the one from cov campaign is LFR, so its 187, and i dont have anyone to do pvp xddd
gloomy fern
daily unrated
stoic needle
You can get the 200 ones from doing bgs
The queueable ones
Why does it give 197 armor but 187 wep 
abstract holly
Got a quick question, lets say there is a pack of 5 mobs, opener is done, rupture and garrotes are up, do we use Crimson Tempest all the time as the finisher or add a rupture or envenom when CT dot is still up?
gloomy knoll
envenom when dots are up
abstract holly
thanks
balmy condor
are int trinket sims supported for us
There’s no APL support for the specific trinket, but there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to sim that
It would count as a stat trinket and should sync with vend
north basin
why its sick
gloomy knoll
There’s no APL support for the specific trinket, but there’s no reason why you w...
poggers ty
balmy condor
poggers ty
versed mica
what's proper usage of SBS for sin? Is it the same as outlaw pins?
stoic bobcat
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
In general simming yourself is the recommended way to determine stat weights.
The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simulation.
Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
hollow escarp
equal or better
subtle tundra
-.-
hollow escarp
I guess it's based on bis profile
swift dragon
crit gives us more combo points
fallen arch
Cause the simgods tell you
subtle tundra
really?
hollow escarp
and vers gives us more damage
hollow escarp
so we should just sim
subtle tundra
crit gives us more combo points
maybe the sim didnt take that in consideration
hollow escarp
and check for our own top gear 🙂
swift dragon
i hate how all wow theorycraftin has just become "just sim it"
subtle tundra
because its impossible to tell whats better?
hollow escarp
they are right though
hollow escarp
well, you can discuss stuff based on sims
but based on how we feel about the spec, we won't reach better conclusions
here are my weights 
subtle tundra
thing is, there is a LOT of gear with vers in the game right now so its pretty normal to already have a lot of vers, making crit more "valuable"
north basin
interesting at which point we get crit even with other stats. i have 29% now and still crit pulls ahead
hollow escarp
same
well I have 33-34% crit on m+ gear
and stat weights is haste top there
for dungeon slice
hollow escarp
oh no
gloomy knoll
crit def worth more than vers though
subtle tundra
well I have 33-34% crit on m+ gear
34% crit breakpoint???
hollow escarp
hahahaha
north basin
XDDD
gloomy knoll
crit still got value at like
600-700 stat points for me
where as vers hard falls off around 400
north basin
dont write breakpoint on this channel . u will summon demons
hollow escarp
well, I never checked patchwerk weights with full crit gear
gloomy knoll
my gearing is basically crit + hast > vers > mastery
but depends on lots of factors
hollow escarp
but I guess there is this in the pins for a reason
modern seal
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
hollow escarp
ohh boy
swift dragon
my gearing is crit=haste>mastery>vers
hollow escarp
I have reached different levels
swift dragon
sitting at 30% mast because of cov gear
hollow escarp
both my daggers are crit/mastery
subtle tundra
sire is haste vers
wheat whale
Done with my Covenant Swap Quest now.
Could swap any time from Venthyr to Necrolord.
I am a bit unsure now whether I should do it or not.
Necrolord sims just 50DPS less than Venthyr on Singletarget but is better on everything else. PvP-wise I also like the boneshield a lot better than Door of Shadows.
Give me some of your insight, would you swap?
I like the playstyle of Flagellation, its fun to time it and fill as much CP within the windows as possible. But Bonespike is fun aswell :S
hollow escarp
it's the same for me, very small difference
but as you said, if you play other content than raiding, necro comes ahead
but it's your meaningful choice to make 
swift dragon
necrolord is vastly superior in M+
half kelp
Is it ever worth throwing out a weak envenom if it means more flag stacks?
half kelp
Ty!
halcyon lynx
what are do good/bis trinkets to go for? From m+/raid?
limber lion
what are do good/bis trinkets to go for? From m+/raid?
Dreadfire Vessel, Phial of Putrefaction, IQD, Shadowgrasp Totem, Hateful Chain
Chain and Vessel are from raid, Phial, IQD and Shadowgrasp are from m+.
I personally use Phial and IQD on every boss currently.
whole mason
I believe each failed crit makes the energy you gain from extra haste more attractive, which results in immediate energy usage problem in a combat instance. Eventually, you realise more haste may merely create more hunger for crits.
low girder
you also lost a shitton of dmg because you spent 35 energy on half the dmg
limber lion
Trust me.
low girder
which is basically all the haste you'd get
halcyon lynx
thx
limber lion
With 1-2-3-4 CP and with Shiv up
And everything
And it was always a loss or no gain.
half kelp
Trying to optimize my gameplay. This spec is a lot of fun coming from unholy
halcyon lynx
I came from Mage. Cant stop enjoying my Rogue ❤️
whole mason
A 3cp env at last sec in flag means 3% for 12sec, which gives you most likely less than 7 energy gain in average. So unless this 3% haste can move forward your energy gain in a specific window that you can perform some good move, you lose dps.
limber lion
I came from Mage. Cant stop enjoying my Rogue ❤️
hollow escarp
It would probably be different if energy cost on finishers was based on cp spent
low girder
^
hollow escarp
But a 6 cp envenom costs the same as a 3 cp
limber lion
Very likely.
low girder
that's where most of the loss comes from
hollow escarp
I recently started to look at this from this perspective because I also believed it's fine to envenom at 3-4 cp
whole mason
BTW, shadow grasp is quite an odd trinket for ass, it out performs many dps trinket if you pair it with flag and good haste.
limber lion
BTW, shadow grasp is quite an odd trinket for ass, it out performs many dps trin...
Yep. It is quite situational though because it loses value if boss moves out of it.
whole mason
ahh, it has like 50yards of range, so it should be fine considering range problem.
one thing to mention is that it cannot attack Gloomveil
limber lion
Yeah, 50 yards is not much to be honest.
Especially on fights like Sire
It's like 1.5 shadowsteps
whole mason
yea, the range is some kind of you dont need to consider of but it matters problem.
limber lion
Actually, it's a double-shadowstep. I've been using QD since I unlocked it like 4 months ago so I'm used to the 30yd range on Shadowstep :p
Yeah, as long as you pay slight attention to it
Like when you transition in Sire, might not want to pop it down immediately :p
kind talon
how impactful is offhand
whole mason
It would probably be different if energy cost on finishers was based on cp spent
the other spec has related mechanism for what you proposed.
wheat whale
if you are at 4 CP (with Deeper Strat), do you Mutilate again for a 6 CP envenom, risking overcapping CPs, or just go ahead with a 4 CP Envenom?
whole mason
I would say it depends when this situation happened
low girder
it does not
mut again
you never finish at 4 with deeper
if garrote is in pandemic window or shiv is coming up you can do that, but otherwise
whole mason
In a window of shiv with planned energy, I would env
limber lion
how impactful is offhand
Not very.
limber lion
if you are at 4 CP (with Deeper Strat), do you Mutilate again for a 6 CP envenom...
Mutilate, but do also note that you can use Shiv/Garrote to fill those missing combo points if available and makes sense to press them.
cursive meteor
Is mastery good to have if you play Zoldyck?
limber lion
Is mastery good to have if you play Zoldyck?
Doesn't really matter.
I mean, it's good sure.
But it's not like Zoldyck is the reason mastery is the best stat in the game
Because it's not.
solar hare
Lmfao
swift dragon
ive been thinking it since i joined
limber lion
Unlucky
swift dragon
not doubting your exeprtise i just cant do it
this dude is putting in the effort to move his finger across the keyboard to hit a button every sentence
limber lion
This is the result of doing typing tests and whatnot as a kid and having to type out a fuck ton of essays in school/university.
swift dragon
your pinky must be swole af
limber lion
You need to have proper capitalization and punctuation on typing tests and typeracer
And I was hooked on that shit for years
limber lion
It's not like I think
swift dragon
i had to graduate highschool typing shit eveyr day because of covid
i still dont use punctuation in discord
limber lion
I got hit by the bot
But yeh
It's not like I think "Okay, this is Discord. Time to be a dummy"
I just type like this everywhere
Doesn't matter if it's a school essay or 4chan
(not that I ever use 4chan that is)
.
swift dragon
It's not like I think "Okay, this is Discord. Time to be a dummy"
i actively place my brain in the microwave everytime i open this app
untold nest
I mean u are 17, nothing has stuck on you yet, not even ur beard
ornate lake
Lol
cursive meteor
lmao
pseudo hamlet
normal mist
Lol
limber lion
I mean u are 17, nothing has stuck on you yet, not even ur beard
I'm 25 and I'm missing a beard.
vital tapir
ionic flume
Rogue
sullen pagoda
I mean u are 17, nothing has stuck on you yet, not even ur beard
god damn man he has a family
swift dragon
average sub rogue boomer
runic sequoia
Is doomblade stil a viable choice or is it better to stay zoldyck?
fallen fable
@limber lion /pat
ornate lake
Is doomblade stil a viable choice or is it better to stay zoldyck?
In what scenario
limber lion
Is doomblade stil a viable choice or is it better to stay zoldyck?
Doomblade is still the best legendary for most raid encounters.
swift dragon
Is doomblade stil a viable choice or is it better to stay zoldyck?
doombalde dps> zoldyck for up to 2 targets
however zoldyck gives execute and is also good in M+
royal lantern
Doomblade is still the best legendary for most raid encounters.
tbf, i would still say zoldyck is worlds better for most progression stuff
MOST, not all
frozen drift
zoldyck for lashers?
limber lion
tbf, i would still say zoldyck is worlds better for most progression stuff
I disagree.
frozen drift
go on....
limber lion
Doomblade is just flat out more damage. Unless the boss introduces a soft enrage mechanic like Sire or gets progressively harder the less hp it has, there's no reason to play Zoldyck.
Like Hungering Devourer is the exact fight from start to finish
And Doomblade just does more damage there.
whole mason
tbf, i would still say zoldyck is worlds better for most progression stuff
For T27, maybe not so true
limber lion
I would only use Zoldyck on SSK, SLG and Sire.
frozen drift
I dont want to craft ANOTHER legendary. I went from doomblade to zoldyck to zoldyck 235 ilvl. i dont want to go and do torghast for another 3 weeks for a 235 doomblade. I'll stick with zoldyck.
limber lion
I dont want to craft ANOTHER legendary. I went from doomblade to zoldyck to zold...
What content are you doing?
frozen drift
raid content
limber lion
Like, it's not a huge dps loss either way.
Our legendaries are all complete garbage
When compared to things like BoAT and DC and FI
The stats from the legendaries give more dps than the actual effect.
frozen drift
I would agree. But i am glad that Rogues are viable again. I did not like fire mage at all.
whole mason
Sticking with zoldyck is kind of fine. However, you can switch to doomblade for cetain raid bosses.
swift dragon
I would only use Zoldyck on SSK, SLG and Sire.
most people a) arent going to run that much torghast because theyd rather insert their genitals into a running blender b) arent going to switch leggos after every fight in raid
our leggos arent garbage
try monk leggos
literally awful
frozen drift
no thank you
swift dragon
the only reason its like this is becaseu everything else is horrifically undertuned because blizz is allergic to the idea of monks doing any ST outside of cds
limber lion
At least their bis lego is better than stats.
swift dragon
?
swift dragon
is this based on ST or AoE ?
limber lion
ST.
stoic needle
I don't think the stats in that chart means what you think it does but maybe I'm misunderstanding it
limber lion
On AoE it's even worse
swift dragon
because xuen is literally the only reason we do any AoE damage
limber lion
You said that the monk legendaries are shit
swift dragon
they are
limber lion
Even though both, their ST AND AoE, are better than ours.
swift dragon
all invokers does is buff xuen
stoic needle
I thought that in that chart, the stats are x% better than the other slot, but not an x% dps contribution overall
swift dragon
monk in general is better aoe than rogue
but that chart is not a fair comparison ebcaus of how the specs work
stoic needle
I'm pretty sure the effect is more dps than the stats on an individual leggo
Otherwise like my 210 doomblade wouldn't have beat out my 235 zoldyck in damage
cursive meteor
^^
stoic needle
Otherwise doomblade hands would be a 10%+ dps increase overall and we all know that's not true
stoic needle
Yeah but I get like a 500 dps loss simming without a legendary at all not 700 or 800
Idk maybe I'm wrong
limber lion
It's literally just using the numbers on the items as a way to determine how much dps the character would get from just equipping the item without an effect.
It's not comparing it to 190 or 210 or 226 items in the same category
It's nothing equipped vs the legendary equipped.
It's not a really realistic thing in the chart to look at honestly
Because you obviously use a different item in place of it.
The blue bar represents a 190 ilvl legendary, the red bar a 210 one and the yellow a 225 one.
vagrant bison
Is it worth in aoe to apply not 5 cp ruptures after the garrote ct opening? To gain more energy
limber lion
If you think "Oh I'm going to get this full blue + red + yellow + green bar effect from equipping a 235 item" then that is flawed.
Because swapping from a 226 item to a 235 legendary gives you that small green bit at the end
compact pumice
Is it worth in aoe to apply not 5 cp ruptures after the garrote ct opening? To g...
In aoe it’s fine to use 2-3 cp ruptures
limber lion
As extra dps from the stats.
And the Doomblade effect on top of it.
So, yes, the legendary effect is of course the bigger damage gain
The chart is kinda jank honestly.
I don't think showing +190 ilvl gain as a huge bar like that is a great idea. Maybe that should be the base ilvl and comparison, and rather just show the bits at the end.
stoic needle
What I really don't understand is when it starts listing the legendaries next to certain talents
Like how is dashing scoundrel a 444 dps increase in dslice, but only 301 when you run ns subt MfD ct?
limber lion
Like how is dashing scoundrel a 444 dps increase in dslice, but only 301 when yo...
It's just looking at the damage provided by the legendary effect in itself. The normal talent setup is BS/MA/DS.
versed mica
how to you use SBS as sin? Is it like how outlaw uses it?
limber lion
When comparing Dashing with BS/MA/DS in DSlice, the effect provided is a bigger dps increase than when running with EP/Subt/Vig/CT
One reason being that CT reduces the amount of Envenom's cast, which in turn reduces Dashing's value
sand gyro
how to you use SBS as sin? Is it like how outlaw uses it?
On ST use it on Gemstone proc or when you are about to cap stacks and on aoe just get them out, without wasting combo points.
compact pumice
Also end the fight on 0 charges for raid bosses
wheat whale
So what would be the best opener for Necrolord Sin? The same like with venthyr just without Flag?
limber lion
So what would be the best opener for Necrolord Sin? The same like with venthyr j...
Yeh, except you start with SBS instead of Muti.
remote holly
!op
prisma monolithBOT
limber lion
Or you can sim yourself using Quick Sim in Raidbots.com
wheat whale
ah, the guide doesnt tell that i think
limber lion
And then see what the sim does.
wheat whale
but is the sim always best?
limber lion
Usually.
whole mason
do a quick sim
limber lion
It changes depending on what happens.
But it gives you an idea on what should happen.
But don't follow it like it's the bible
remote holly
I am curious. I'm trying to change from Outlaw to Sin. However my Lego is on Shoulders.
Do I want Doomwinds on Shoulders to replace it?
Why is it on gauntlets/gloves and is it better that way?
whole mason
SLG gives 233 shoulder
remote holly
Ah ok
lofty shell
i was in same situation and i made doomblade on shoulder, same legendary slots is pretty handy dandy.
but yea if you're in a situation where getting mythic slg shoulders is a realistic option, might wanna reconsider
remote holly
makes sense. thanks!
whole mason
if SLG is not on your list, doomblade on shoulder, someone would suggest, sounds better for stats.
winter vapor
well feck, got a nice 220 chest but also a 213 IQD in the vault.... chest is biggest I level upgrade by far but hrrnnnn
winter vapor
farming trinkets in DoS cries in guardian
but yeah its likely, IQD looks a little, tricky to use just yet for me
whole mason
get an IQD wa for that
winter vapor
I feel at this point weak aura#s should be blizzard default ui
hollow escarp
well, blizzard does a good job to let us customize our ui the way we want
so I'm fine with that as well
winter vapor
true
whole mason
I would say that is not necessary
stoic needle
Shoulders and gloves have the exact same stats btw
whole mason
At least blizzard did a good job as keeping it open for players to DIY.
stoic needle
And there are higher ilvl shoulders in 9.1 as well
ornate gazelle
Does rogue have any info for 9.1 yet. I can't find shit other than the shield conduit change.
limber lion
Does rogue have any info for 9.1 yet. I can't find shit other than the shield co...
Not really.
Soulbind trees have extra stuff on them, nothing else.
fallen current
Way way too early to start deciding things for 9.1
ornate gazelle
I'm not deciding anything, I just see other classes and specs with a ton of shit already.
I feel like we're always last to know lol.
stoic needle
Rogue is always the afterthought
minor thicket
Hey guys my guild is just starting on mythic Sludge. I have a question do we blow CDs at start or just wait until first pillar goes down?
So at pull no band Etta or vanish etc...
Vandetta *
limber lion
If you lust the 4th pillar, which you normally do on progression, you would use cooldowns on pull, on 2nd pillar and on 4th pillar.
You need to use Vendetta slightly earlier in the opener to get it on the 2nd pillar.
whole mason
for my guild, I did start, 2, 4, lust at 4th pillar.
uneven summit
Start, 2nd and 4th no doubt
mighty owl
You need to use Vendetta slightly earlier in the opener to get it on the 2nd pil...
This is the most important part, move vendetta up like 3-4 global from standard opener to get on 2nd pillar
Maybe more, can’t remember at this point
subtle tundra
use on first garrote
kind talon
does MA affect trinkets
subtle tundra
negative
subtle tundra
yes
kind talon
aight ty
subtle tundra
dont hold for it though
whole mason
shadowgrasp totem is affected by your haste, so you know what to do
kind talon
ye
shadowgrasp is good
ive got skulkers so
thinking of just macroing it idk
this spec feels really good wow
hollow escarp
hollow escarp
depends on boss as well
limber lion
kind talon
no i mean like
little pelican
Hey all - question regarding mythic +. Currently using the 'standard' build with Zoldyck Insignia and elaborate planning, subterfuge, crimson tempest. But do you switch your legendary and/or talents for tyranical weeks opposed to fortified?
kind talon
this is the first time i have played the spec outside of target dummies like
limber lion
Hey all - question regarding mythic +. Currently using the 'standard' build with...
No, you run the same stuff every week.
hollow escarp
this shit is broke
you haven't played a real class yet 
hollow barn
Saying any rogue spec is broken is a yikes
mighty owl
Yea just wait until you go to the blue class and can hit EVERY enemy
limber lion
Jossain dunkuissa voit ottaa Doombladen (esim ToP) mut yleensä Zoldyck go-to joka dunkus, riippumatta affixseist. @little pelican
hollow escarp
you realise how sad it is to get a purple/orange log with less than 5k dps? 
council btw
warm parcel
limber lion
council btw
That's just the nature of Council though
hollow escarp
I know
little pelican
@limber lion you are assuming im from Finland ;). But thanks for the quick answers
remote holly
Quick check, Icy veins asks me to use Eternal Stats
but is Eternal Skirmish better?
limber lion
teal bloom
@limber lion torille
limber lion
but is Eternal Skirmish better?
Doesn't really matter, I just use Skirmish everywhere. It's better in ST.
remote holly
ok
limber lion
It's very marginal.
@little pelican Ryfie is the highest rated Assassination rogue in M+, you can check out his stream and discord for tips on how to play Assa in M+.
He posts his dps logs from his dungeons and what legendaries/talents he uses for each of them.
fallen fable
Why would you play it in m+
hollow escarp
he is almost 3k
limber lion
He is already 3k.
limber lion
Why would you play it in m+
Why not?
hollow escarp
fallen fable
No gauge
hollow escarp
why would you play rogue in raid then?
limber lion
So we play it.
hollow escarp
same logic
limber lion
Yeh, just play Fire Mage
And when that gets nerfed, swap to the most op class after that again
fallen fable
Well often rogues loses spots on progress
nova imp
mages dont have gouge either
hollow escarp
mages dont have gouge either
fallen fable
Are u comparing fire mage dps vs rogue dps?
limber lion
No, you saying "You shouldn't play Assa because it doesn't have gouge"
is the dumbest thing.
Imagine enjoying a spec
and wanting to play a spec because you have a good time with it.
heavy trail
I am learning this spec because it's enjoyable. Not everyone has to be the "god of the game" to enjoy it an can do well.
little pelican
Appreciate it - will check it out! Thanks again @limber lion 👍
limber lion
Instead of playing the most optimal, op spec everytime.
fallen fable
It will never be as good as outlaw in m+
limber lion
It will never be as good as outlaw in m+
Who cares?
Outlaw is not as good as Boomkin either
hollow escarp
I know lots of people like JPC, but even he said there are a few dungeons where he would play assa where gouge is not really needed
fallen fable
Yeah memes. Enoy the class not 1 spec.
hollow escarp
8k dps are not memes though
heavy trail
@fallen fable I just roasted a 205 outlaw rogue as a 195 assassin rogue in a key. I guess it might also have to do with who pushes the buttons 🙂
hollow escarp
also I did try to play outlaw a lot recently and I noticed that I deliver less dps than I do when I play assa
it's obviously because I'm not an outlaw main
and probably gear
but why pay the optimal spec if I can perform better in my one trick spec?
fallen fable
@heavy trail thats shame on him
@hollow escarp yeah i got u there. But i prefer learning better spec, atleast better on paper.
But yeah as long as u push the key it doesnt matter what u play
heavy trail
DOS 40, PF 5 (Trinket run count) wonder which one will finally drop. I have a 216 decanter already so i probably can relax if i get one i suppose.
whole mason
You may say Assa has no gouge in M+, but you may be silenced by Assa's garrotte.👀
heavy trail
Probably cuz in straight up AOE it's going to end up being a struggle to keep up to the easier specs
hollow escarp
we are target capped to 8
not 5
so in some scenarios, we can pull ahead
like first pull in HoA
foggy moat
if you cast CT, does it prioritize non CTd targets or is it 8 random?
hollow escarp
random by proximity
foggy moat
so 16 mobs all at 5 feet have equal chance then
hollow escarp
probably
but if you move around, you kinda have more chances to hit different targets
daring pecan
lmao, did someone actually say that mages don't have gouge when they have DB? 
timber basalt
thorny pond
We also have pocket sand
indigo mulch
odd hazel
i mean
over all, its the player not the class. yes some have overall advantage to bring over another but a bad player will make the class/spec bad no matter what that specific class/spec brings
i understand why you take one over the other but it is what it is
cold sparrow
This is prob a stupid question, but should I use the Ambush during the opener when I get Blindside on my 1st Mut? So Mut > SnD > Ambush?
Playing with MA, so I am not sure if I should take the Damage from Ambush + 3CP, or Mut + 4CP but wasting BS chance. I used Ambush when BS Proc happened, but I wanted to make sure
stoic needle
Yeah you always ambush with blindside instead of mut even during the opener
cold sparrow
Thank you!
odd hazel
would you all find zolyck worth using in 13-15s?
spice spire
Yes
next junco
fast question what conduits for nerco?
cold sparrow
Another question for the opener on 2 Targets, e.g. Huntsman. Still using BS + MA for that because have not tried out EP+SF (+CT) at all. I am also Nightfae.
I do Mut > SnD > Mut > Garrote > Rupture on Huntsman, but then I am a bit unsure what to do on the Pet. Do I Mut (spam until 5+ CP) > Rupture > Garrote and then full rota on Huntsman with Vendetta etc?
Because I saw someone doing Mut > Rupture only on the Pet (I assume he crit with the Mut to 4 CP, was a while back) and then did the usual rotation on Huntsman
stoic needle
There's no reason not to use the correct talents
There's not really anything to get used to except opening with two garottes. That's not particularly hard
cold sparrow
Yea I know, but dont have much practice with SF yet. Even though its just Stealth Garrote and refreshing after it runs out or if I use with Vanish
stoic needle
There's no time like the present to learn :)
cold sparrow
Yea xP
stoic needle
Your effort is better spent learning the correct opener with the correct talents than a suboptimal one with suboptimal talents
cold sparrow
So with SF it is Garrote on Huntsman > SnD > Garrote on Pet, then Mut spam until 5+CP Rupture Target 1, then do the same and Rupture Pet, and finally do usual rotation on Huntsman?
Yea you are right
dawn quail
hi there, elemental shaman main here, started out with rogue a week ago (to try as fun alt) been really enjoying the fast gameplay. i do however have some (basic questions).
i play venthyr and im wondering when and how would you setup for flagelation? right now im using it a few seconds before vendetta and racial. and i try to have all dots running + 4-5CP before i flag
is this worth playing like, or am i over/underthinking this?
swift dragon
would you all find zolyck worth using in 13-15s?
zoldyck is out best aoe leggo
stoic needle
Gar > gar > snd, mut to 4+5cp, vendetta, flagellation on huntsman, rupture on huntsman. Then you rupture the dog, shiv huntsman, and spam envenoms. Vanish when the garottes are in pandemic and reapply. You want to vendetta before flag to make flag's first hit harder
You don't want to delay it until you have everything running, the CP you spend on those dots could be making flag do more damage
grave dock
if you're running subterfuge, wouldn't you rather wait until empowered garrote finishes ticking before vanishing and reapplying?
dawn quail
You don't want to delay it until you have everything running, the CP you spend o...
allright thanks, i was considering that to be one of the factors, however i told myself (again im new to rogue) that getting the dots up for energy regen would alow me to use more CP during Flag
grave dock
I guess it doesn't really matter
stoic needle
You aren't wrong, but if you flag right before you apply rupture you get the best of both worlds
cold sparrow
if you're running subterfuge, wouldn't you rather wait until empowered garrote f...
Vanish applies empowered as well, so during pandemic (last ~5.4s)
stoic needle
But you want to vendetta before that
grave dock
yea yea that didn't make any sense
stoic needle
Pandemic saves the duration of the old dot when you reapply
grave dock
yes
stoic needle
So it's 5.4+18
grave dock
I know, having a brain problem this morning
stoic needle
Hehe have some coffee
supple pagoda
Gar > gar > snd, mut to 4+5cp, vendetta, flagellation on huntsman, rupture on hu...
Do you also 4+5cp rupture dog or small rupture?
dawn quail
But you want to vendetta before that
ok great, does make sense to to hold too much but rather just use it (within boundaries ofc) its fairly easy at least to use the pandemic window for me as ele shaman flame shock works the same way
stoic needle
A 3cp rupture is 16s, and vendetta is 20s, so that's fine. The damage isn't higher with longer duration and you'll be overflowing with energy so the energy efficiency doesn't matter much either
I don't think it matters much either way
cold sparrow
Gar > gar > snd, mut to 4+5cp, vendetta, flagellation on huntsman, rupture on hu...
That makes sense, unfortunately I am Nightfae so no Flag ;(
But I guess I just do 1 Mut > Rup on Dog and not hold Vendetta for too long
woven ruin
Maybe dumb....can you change legendaries mid fight?
stoic needle
You can't
cold sparrow
i just moved to nerco
check pins next time, but pretty much always Shiv
stoic needle
That makes sense, unfortunately I am Nightfae so no Flag ;(
But I guess I just d...
For night fae just make sure to sepsis and then shiv no more than 10 seconds into vendetta so your whole sepsis fits inside of vendetta and shiv and the last bonk of sepsis is amplified
Nah actually sudden fractures is better than well placed steel
You can sim it
grave dock
what I actually meant re: huntsman and vanish was
like obviously you don't want garrote to drop, but if you're still in flag, would you rather just mutilate instead of vanishing and double garroting to try and get more envenoms inside flag (if it's still up)
cold sparrow
Yea, always doing Sepsis + shiv at the beginning of 1st vendetta 👍
And interesting, didnt know that about sudden fractures lol, mb mb
grave dock
I dunno about the CP/energy efficiency of garrote v mut right now - also not sure how the timing works with flag and garrote's window, not playing venth
stoic needle
I think in that situation you'd try to delay vanish until the first half of flag is over, but if you have to choose between garotte falling off completely and getting an extra finisher in flag you'd go for the vanish
grave dock
yea, for sure if it was gonna fall off
wary ice
I dunno about the CP/energy efficiency of garrote v mut right now - also not sur...
in any situation where you are trying to dump finishers, pressing garrote is incredibly inefficient
grave dock
yea, that was why I asked
stoic needle
Rip SS 
grave dock
looking at logs though, it seems probably unavoidable, just based on how the opener works
you can't clip garrote early before going into flag because you're just going to overwrite your empowered garrote (obviously)
idk most logs are MA anyway, not really sure if these random subt logs i'm looking at it are doing it 100% correctly anyway
wary ice
looking at logs though, it seems probably unavoidable, just based on how the ope...
? is the opener not m-s-m-g-Flag-rupture
stoic needle
I wonder how much of a dps loss clipping an empowered garotte with another empowered one is
This is for huntsman
wary ice
OH
wary ice
sorry i missed that
grave dock
stoic needle
The top logs on huntsman are ep subt ct though
grave dock
so like this is the top NA/EU subt parse on huntsman
not subt
I filtered NA/EU, but the top like 20 are all MA
stoic needle
That opener isn't really correct
grave dock
well either way
carmine island
hello every one! Im new to rogue in general (only played for fun never rly get into it) and to assa (never ever played the spec) trying to learn the class and i got few question to rly optimise uptime and dps:
- if im using elaborate planning and supposing i just used and got lucky with a 4 combo points mutilate should i use another finisher during this ability uptime or should i wait 1/2 sec to regen energy and then cast the finisher at like 0.5 to increase finisher dmg and dont waste the auto attack in the middle beeing able to regen more energy to spend on the following planning?
- if i have the envenom buff up should i override it or not? I tried to answer the question but not sure im right. Basically during shiv windows i would just spam envenom not caring about override buff then outside shiv windows to rly optimise maybe is better to wait the debuff to tick out before refresh?
- elaborate planning vs blindside on singletarget. is it worth to have one more keybind for a spell that is kinda even (and more rng) insted of a controlled dps source? Cose i was having rly nice time with planning kinda deciding when to increase my dps instead of using blindside witch is kinda random even tho it may be a good execute damage
thx to every one helping have a great day 🙂
grave dock
you're obviously going to open with garrote here, so there's no way to avoid having to refresh during flag, cause you aren't getting into flag until 5-6 globals later, at which point garrote is going to be close enough to pandemic range
stoic needle
I mean tbh we're talking about a sub 20 dps difference between the best and a super sloppy opener
grave dock
yes
the eternal rule about openers (in most cases)
I just pulled the top subt parse on the fight
sand gyro
Wait so is it EP with Subterfuge and CT for Huntsman?
wary ice
and for subt, not MA
i personally play MA on that fight cause im lazy; but counting out the opener
grave dock
well most people seem to play MA, not sure it makes you lazy lol
wary ice
You dont have to vanish for a re-application of garrotes during the CP dump of flag
you should have exactly 10s left on your first garrote target
cold sparrow
But if you arent Venthyr, you still Vanish > reapply Garrote on both Targets during Vendetta?
stoic needle
18s-5s(the gcds between your first garotte and your flag) = 13s
So ideally youd have 1s left to garotte your first target after the flag building window ends
wary ice
G-G-S-M-M-R-M-M-Flag-R-M-M-Shiv-Env
stoic needle
Flag before the first rup
grave dock
yea in that sequence garrote is gonna fall off for sure
that's too many globals I think?
wary ice
nope
stoic needle
Yes it is
stoic needle
But flag is 12s
wary ice
You can flag early but then you have to vend early as well
stoic needle
Yeah you should
wary ice
which means youre burning 5 cp into the off target during your vend window
doesnt really matter 🤷♀️
Point is you dont have to vanish refresh until the dumps over
grave dock
I mean it is marginal
but like you said, garrote is ending there with 2-3 seconds left on flag
maybe you can't get another envenom in anyway
wary ice
🤷♀️ then flag before first
grave dock
solution: just play MA
wary ice
It also assumes no crits
grave dock
and lust changes the math probably
grave dock
yea
grave dock
you can if you're being lazy
stoic needle
You lust during barghast so you don't get too many sets of shades
grave dock
at this point it does not matter a whole lot when you lust on huntsman altimor
stoic needle
grave dock
I learned the other day
that huntsman is not supposed to get the broken bond debuff on mythic
it's in the dungeon journal, but it isn't supposed to be, and sometimes he gets the debuff, and sometimes he doesn't
stoic needle
yes he is, its just buggy
where did you hear that it's not supposed to be on mythic?
grave dock
I reported the bug that the debuff isn't showing up for our mythic kills of Huntsman when all dogs are dead. Their response: It's not supposed to be a thing on mythic, so if it IS showing up it'd be a bug
from someone who used to work at blizzard
cold sparrow
Another question with SF after the first empowered ones with Vanish run out. The 2nd Vanish will come up during Vendetta window, do I still use Vanish + Garrote on both targets during Vendetta? Or only do it if non-empowered Garrote are about to run out?
stoic needle
yes you should vanish+garotte during vendetta
cold sparrow
Ty!
stoic needle
what would have changed to make it not important
stoic needle
well yeah you don't hold one for the other
that's not what i meant
but if you have vend up, and vanish is up, you slam it
30%+80% damage on garotte is good
cold sparrow
Yea I am not holding them, but due to Opener on 2 Targets, Vanish will be used a bit later than Vendetta to refresh empowered Garrotes so I was asking
modest glen
do you run oil/phantom fire on single target and agi/stone on multi target? or is the difference so small it doesnt matter?
stoic needle
the latter
u can run phantom fire if you're trying to RNG a parse
but i cba so i just do stones/agi everywhere
!oil
is moroes ded?
!guide
cold sparrow
rip
stoic needle
!oil
well just search !oil on discord and look at the post that comes up, you can sim it
modest glen
but i cba so i just do stones/agi everywhere
thanks, i'll just do this aswell
wary ice
just use whatevers cheaper on the AH when u go to buy more tbh 🙂
gusty mirage
no ss
You’d still want to line up vanish and vendetta for MA
People forget that assa played MA with no SS in 8.2 or something 
stoic needle
vanishing into IQD MA vendetta 100% crit 5cp doomblade envenom 