yeah, envenom is a self buff, so no need to tab target envenom
#assassination
hollow escarp
stoic needle
I'd avoid trying to summarize it like that until we get a better explanation tbh
balmy condor
Did he type it here?
stoic needle
Was in OT
limber lion
All of the "good builds" are very close. It's not like Zoldyck is an obvious, must-have choice.
marble hemlock
i havent tested dashing/pb enough but its just the fact that CT is so damn good
limber lion
You can play the NS MFD CT build with MA for lower keys.
marble hemlock
not playing CT feels like a major sacrifice
limber lion
i havent tested dashing/pb enough but its just the fact that CT is so damn good
Sure, but Oshosi was saying that getting more crit chance would enable the use of PB instead.
marble hemlock
why?
limber lion
Exactly
stoic needle
No I didn't say that specifically
marble hemlock
if anything, getting higher crit would allow you to play CT and still maintain high envenom uptimes as you boost your cp gen
limber lion
.
stoic needle
You said that dashing PB felt like shit because of the crit you have
marble hemlock
nah you misunderstood then. higher crit would allow us to run CT+dashing
right now with current stat values, its pmuch impossible to maintain CT and high envenom uptimes
stoic needle
Oh okay my bad
marble hemlock
so youre forced into PB (which is also the build that dashing sims high with in dslice) and itll ultimately just cost you too much dps
the energy gain from dashing isnt really something thats all that useful in aoe, leaving you with a marginal dps increase to your poisons. even with MP and LP conduit, your poisons make up 15-20% of your damage. getting 15% crit on that isnt a substantial throughput increase
dashing would be more powerful if we had ways to actually dump that energy into aoe damage, but fok hits like a wet noodle as we no longer have an azerite trait boosting its DPE, and since you run PB you dont have an aoe finisher you could spam either
limber lion
hollow escarp
balmy condor
Yep
stoic needle
Thanks for the insight about it
frail fossil
stoic needle
Imagine if pb were an aoe finisher instead of a dumb proc
hollow escarp
wasn't dashing good in legion because of our poison damage and kingsbane?
or am I dreaming?
limber lion
wasn't dashing good in legion because of our poison damage and kingsbane?
Dashing was a tier set my boy
It's the T21 tier set
hollow escarp
yeah
marble hemlock
it was good because it procced without the need for envenom
hollow escarp
I'm dreaming
marble hemlock
it was also good because it procced so much energy, you literally wouldnt need bleeds to sustain energy on aoe
limber lion
You also didn't need to give up other legendaries, like Zoldyck for it
marble hemlock
yeah, that as well
but generally speaking, dashing will become super valuable if we can maintain envenom and CT
but thatll require either a change to fok cp gen to work like shurikenstorm for sub, or much higher crit than is currently possible
hollow escarp
so if the CT dot duration was bigger as well?
marble hemlock
meh, ct dot increase isnt something i would like to see
limber lion
I feel like it just loses too much value in bigger packs because you spend most of the time generating for and applying ruptures to everything
marble hemlock
i like it being a short duration dot
balmy condor
I mean I still don’t get it really
hollow escarp
I see that
limber lion
Like there's barely any time to Envenom when you're constantly using CT and Rupturing
balmy condor
But I don’t think I have enough evidence to show anything either way
marble hemlock
on bigger pulls youd be able to just not rupture as much. its just that with the current DPE of most of our abilities, youll always want to multi-rupture for dps, and that automatically invalidates half of the legendaries value
balmy condor
So I guess I’ll take your word for it
marble hemlock
i mean, im just spitballing whispyr, based on how things played out in previous expansions
where we usually got to a point where spamming fok was the way to aoe, and that made raw energy gains very valuable as you didnt want to multi-bleed as much
in the current version, thats not gonna happen, and youre probably right that just getting more stats isnt gonna change that either
balmy condor
The main issue I see currently is that we still have a lot of bleed damage in our m+ sets
marble hemlock
yeah
i mean
legion had poison knives to push fok DPE higher than bleeds, bfa had echoing blades
marble hemlock
maybe running katar+LP at high ilvl bonuses would lead to the same result? but i doubt itll be as significant as those were
balmy condor
But knowing what we have now
I don’t see a path to dashing and energy spamming foks
marble hemlock
id much rather see a move towards a rupture or garrote conduit instead of getting a third expansion of fok spam anyway
balmy condor
Is it possible that the empowered katar conduit is just echoing blades?
marble hemlock
ultimately assa will always overcap energy like crazy without a proper energy dump
marble hemlock
nah
limber lion
Yeah, EB was good. I mean it was pretty silly gameplay wise, but I don't think spamming Flamestrike/-patch on the same spot is that much more engaging
marble hemlock
hidden blades is just a passive dmg increase that doesnt scale well at all
as its limited to 1proc/2seconds
even with echoing blades, HB was less of a dmg gain on aoe than PB even
a 20% dmg gain every 2sec on an ability making up ~20% of your dmg on aoe is just... terrible 😄
comes out to 1-2% overall
PB is better than that
marble hemlock
katar would be great if it would also scale the crit, not just the dmg
limber lion
I just wish we had more bleeds/poisons to work with. I don't think doing 60% of our damage with our 3 opener garrotes was great either.
marble hemlock
which i feel it shouldve been from the start
balmy condor
Well katar currently makes hidden blades better by a sizable amount
It was even in the pins as a recommendation for heavy aoe earlier in the expansion
Fuu wrote it I think
(I took it out for obvious reasons)
limber lion
limber lion
Ye same
balmy condor
But I don’t think hb is actually all that bad
marble hemlock
i dont see how HB could ever overtake CT unless its super short duration burst aoe and you start with max charges
balmy condor
Yeah I mean I’m not saying it’s likely
limber lion
If stealthing gave max charges
balmy condor
But if we go down the fok path again
limber lion
marble hemlock
it just doesnt make sense mathematically at all
HB is so badly tuned
for it to become viable
hollow escarp
it's just scuffed legion cloak
limber lion
Just change HB to EB
marble hemlock
this is my dmg distrib from a DoS yday
how is a 20% dmg gain/2sec on an ability that does 6% of my overall
ever gonna compete with CT?
balmy condor
More fok damage makes hb good
marble hemlock
but that is with katar already
balmy condor
Katar makes hb rise a good portion
marble hemlock
balmy condor
Yeah
marble hemlock
like
balmy condor
But the gap is something that already closes
limber lion
But then again Seli
marble hemlock
i just dont understand how an ability that you can average out to a 10% dmg increase for the ability it affects
to become this huge dps increase
limber lion
Without CT and with HB you would be pressing FoK more often
marble hemlock
no you wouldnt
balmy condor
That’s not true
balmy condor
^
limber lion
Yeh that's true
marble hemlock
so on average, youre looking at a 10% dmg gain on fok with hidden blades
even if youre generous wiht building stacks between pulls and on bosses
and you make it a flat 20% dmg benefit to fok
limber lion
I woke up 30mins ago, peabrain
balmy condor
balmy condor
From what I’ve seen, it’s a better idea than dashing at least
Dashing doesn’t even come close to zold atm until you have like 16 stacked targets or something insane, and doesn’t win until 20
marble hemlock
balmy condor
And that’s mostly because of Pb uncapped
balmy condor
I agree, CT will most likely continue to be the go to
marble hemlock
and i mean yeah
i suggested my HB replacement a few times
make it echoing blades combined with scent of blood:
Hidden Blades - Hitting a target afflicted by Rupture with your Fan of Knives deals X damage to up to 5 targets around it.
sly sky
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
limber lion
make it echoing blades combined with scent of blood:
Hidden Blades - Hitting a ...
Interesting concept
marble hemlock
or just make CT baseline and make it a talentline that affects CT in different ways
hollow escarp
I liked Scent of Blood a lot
marble hemlock
could literally have 3 different Ct talents, one removing the bleed and making it a pure instant dmg, one that removes the instant dmg but increases the bleed dmg, and one that turns it into a single-target bleed or smth
hollow escarp
I thought it was boring.
at least it interacted with our bleeding gameplay in a way
marble hemlock
yeah
limber lion
That's true
marble hemlock
at least it encouraged you to rupture beyond the energy-sustain limit
which was neat
putting you in a position where youd have to decide whether it was worth casting another rupture for more stats
or use the statgain you already have to do more dmg with fok/ct
limber lion
Yeh, don't think it would work very well with the current state of the game because you already want to rupture everything around you just for the damage.
marble hemlock
im not a big fan of anything that leads to fok-spam as the ideal gameplay
limber lion
Wouldn't encourage different gameplay, would just be a passive thing.
marble hemlock
and the thing i wrote about combining scent+echo would make fok a valuable ability to use even on 2 or 3targets
hollow escarp
yeah, that's why I also don't like sub in keys, it's just fok spam with different ability names
marble hemlock
yeah
limber lion
At least SS feels good to press
marble hemlock
its what i disliked about sub a lot. just spamming fok into BP
limber lion
Unlike fok
marble hemlock
and i dont want assa to turn into fok>ct>repeat
limber lion
Ye I hate that
brittle pawn
thats why i stopped sub
marble hemlock
im just annoyed that we dont have a rupture garrote or envenom conduit
hollow escarp
hopefully soon
marble hemlock
class thats designed around building combopoints and using them for big finishers, and then our conduits improve our builder dmg
limber lion
Spamming FOK at 5 combo points with EB was silly and felt so wrong
marble hemlock
👌
hollow escarp
I kinda liked azerite armor more than conduits lol
not the system
but the powers
limber lion
The conduits are just very underwhelming
Whereas the azerite traits actually did a lot of different stuff and had more variety.
Conduits are just very lazy
marble hemlock
they had the same issue however
they improved builder dmg instead of finisher
atleast ttk was somewhat decent
limber lion
Yeh
hollow escarp
maim, mangle 
marble hemlock
but no meaningful rupture or garrote trait
limber lion
Ttk was a fun one.
marble hemlock
and i dont count SS here as it was stealth-only
stoic needle
its kind of baffling to me that they didn't just make the conduits the most popular azerite traits
marble hemlock
for the last 3 expansions assa has been kinda scuffed, as its theme and fantasy is bleeds/poisons and damage over time, but then most rental powers have enhanced the direct-damaging abilities of teh spec, not the damage over time ones
limber lion
I enjoyed the SS combo point portion, but not the damage. I always thought it was dumb being so heavily reliant on restealths between packs
supple pelican
Kind of baffling that they don’t take talents that have CDs and in their trees and make them baseline 
supple pelican
That dreadblades CD is pretty good 
sour wraith
PB
frosty bridge
👍 cheers
sturdy mesa
How much haste would you recommend before playing deeper strategem
royal lantern
the haste % when your sim tells you deeper is better
fossil narwhal
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
plain thistle
more targets, blindside is a single target talent. EP gets more value when you have more uptime on it (which happens when you can have more than 2 bleeds up)
velvet bridge
ty
tribal steppe
hey guys how far behind is necro from venth in pve?
would taking necro for pvp screw me in pve?
stoic needle
Not far at all
Koji said they found an optimization for sbs with heirmir that makes necro like less than 1% behind venthyr for single target
tribal steppe
interesting
stoic needle
And it's better as soon as there's an extra add at all
stoic needle
I would say overall yes
But soulshape, burrs and first strike are all very powerful
None of the choices are far enough apart that you're gimping yourself by choosing one
stoic needle
Yeah sin apparently really likes the necro survivability in pvp
strange python
hey guys
just wondering if anyone has time to explain the new CT build
im about to test
balmy condor
you take NS, mfd
you equip MA legendary
you mfd before every pack, if you're at 1-2 target, you rupture one
if you're at 3+, you CT
then fok/mut into ruptures during the MA window
otherwise the same as usual
vital crown
is going celestial guidance and lightless force better than guidance/sinful revelation?
balmy condor
for what
vital crown
raiding
balmy condor
no
balmy condor
yes
tribal steppe
CT?
pliant apex
wow 2 years of playing rogue at highest level and just realized you can shadowstep behind other players
anyone else not know that
fallen current
balmy condor
can also blind out of stealth
frosty bridge
Yikes, guys, can i get some help on how to open properly? :D
stoic needle
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
frosty bridge
With Venthyr, Doomblade, MA and Blindside
When exactly do i flag?
The only thing im not sure about tbh
balmy condor
before rupture
frosty bridge
Thanks!
pliant apex
You ready to have your mind blown again?
dam lol!
tight vector
how much haste is a good start for sin ?
limber lion
how much haste is a good start for sin ?
Literally doesn't matter.
There are no haste requirements, haste breakpoints or any of that.
hazy crater
finally CE 
feelsgood doing giga boss dmg
limber lion
finally CE <:poggers:652288776021999626> feelsgood doing giga boss dmg
Grats, #1 in p3? :^)
stoic needle
Gz
hazy crater
yeah and overall as well
stoic needle
I feel bad that my guild couldn't kill sludge last week because I'm a dummy and transfered mid lockout
But I'm also kinda glad because now I can pump on sludge with iqd 
sly sky
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
gray hazel
As necrolord, are you supposed to be using SBS as soon as the charges come up/
balmy condor
no
you get the dot up
and then you hold the other charges for gemstone in single target
obviously in aoe you would spread the dot
gray hazel
Kk, once gemstone pops, i take it the 3 charges take prio over everything else?
balmy condor
yeah you just use them as cheap generators
gray hazel
Gotcha, thanks!
grim jay
worth to keep the doomblade dot up one secondary?
supple compass
Do you ever flag in multi target without vendetta
balmy condor
yes
you flag on cooldown
in single target as well
syncing should never be the default
grim jay
its a bleed so it works like that, the question is it worth it 😄
balmy condor
its a bleed so it works like that, the question is it worth it 😄
no it doesn't work like that
it works like ignite
where the damage compounds
you don't lose out on any damage between hitting 1 target, or 20
limber lion
lol
slender trail
you don’t lose out on damage but don’t you lose out on energy regen?
limber lion
you don’t lose out on damage but don’t you lose out on energy regen?
??
Venomous Wounds only works with Garrote and Rupture.
It even specifies them by name.
slender trail
ohh, I thought someone said it worked with doom blade’s dot. ok good then.
limber lion
You've been lied to.
prisma perch
My log sucks but can som1 help? I am Derias https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9QmCGF1VDnLZ6vWt/#fight=24&type=damage-done
well I gotta say the logs vary also hard with beams and mechanics
limber lion
My log sucks but can som1 help? I am Derias https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...
- You waste combo points with Mutilate and Ambush. You should never use Mutilate or Ambush at 5CP, you just finish at 5 or 6 CP.
- Your garrote/rupture uptime is pretty bad. It's around 88% on Inerva, whereas it should be closer to 99%. You let your garrote drop 3 times, Rupture 4 times. You should never let them drop. Are you aware of the pandemic mechanic?
prisma perch
yes
limber lion
You missed out on 4 Shiv casts. That is very major.
You should be pressing Shiv on CD.
prisma perch
even if i have no cp?
limber lion
You pool energy/combo points and reapply bleeds when it's on cooldown, but when it's off cooldown you press it even if you haven't pooled properly before it.
Yes.
You always press Shiv on cooldown.
Sometimes you can stall it for max 12 seconds to sync with Vendetta, but other than that you should be using it on cooldown all the time.
0 CP? Use Shiv.
3 CP? Use Shiv.
6 CP? Use Shiv.
prisma perch
shiv also on low energy?
limber lion
You might want to re-read the messages that I just sent.
limber lion
You also miss out on Flag casts because you keep syncing it with Vendetta, which you shouldn't do
You press Flag on cooldown as well.
limber lion
but when I have nothing to use and shiv is used dont I waste casts?
I'll just quote myself here again
limber lion
You pool energy/combo points and reapply bleeds when it's on cooldown, but when ...
.
The most important thing is using Shiv on cd and not losing casts
stoic needle
the only way to waste shiv casts is to not press it at all
limber lion
Getting 3 Envenoms inside the window is not a thing
You just press it on cooldown and that's it
Nothing else matters.
I'll do a list of things to improve for you:
2. Use Flagellation on cooldown. You can try to sync the last cast with the last Vendetta, but normally just use it on cooldown.
3. Improve your bleed uptime and do not let your bleeds drop. (Reapplying bleeds during Pandemic instead of letting them drop)
4. Press Vendetta faster and do not sit on it so much. If you always delay it by 30s, eventually you'll lose a cast of Vendetta, which is very major.
5. Do not press Mutilate/Ambush at 5 combo points. You use finishers at 5 or 6, you don't need to build to 6 combo points.```okay ill copy that
alright I get the main point, generally if I use shiv and lets say rupture runs out or garrote do I just focus on using envenom or refresh it ?
limber lion
This is the third time I'm saying this, you really need to pay more attention here
EVEN if you're at 0 energy and 0 combo points, you press Shiv
You reapply bleeds during the Shiv window
And getting multiple Envenom's inside the Shiv is not a thing to focus on.
You press Shiv even if you get 0 Envenom's
But you should never get 0 Envenom's, because you pool energy and reapply bleeds before Shiv.
prisma perch
really? som1 told me to use shiv with envenom only
balmy condor
stoic needle
Where do people hear this stuff 
limber lion
You always think 10-15s ahead
stoic needle
ideally you want to be envenoming during shiv but if you have to refresh bleeds during shiv you do that
You're still getting bonus damage on all of your poison procs during shiv
limber lion
You don't let bleeds drop and you press all of your abilities on cooldown. That's Assa rogue in a nutshell.
prisma perch
okay and if there are adds how should I focus on the bleeds?
keep it on boss as priority always then?
limber lion
Yes, even with adds you keep your bleeds on the boss at all times.
On Inerva specifically you keep bleeds on Inerva, you can garrote/rupture the big add and apply a small rupture to the small add
And then just focus boss
prisma perch
do I keep up also the doomblade bleed then?
prisma perch
okay ill have to try this
limber lion
limber lion
Bingo
prisma perch
Use Shiv on cooldown. Pool energy, reapply bleeds
should I pool here after shiv?
or did u mean it as steps??
na wouldnt line up
stoic needle
if you just don't use envenom outside of shiv until 90+ energy it takes care of all of your pooling
limber lion
You pool energy on Envenom.
stoic needle
you don't even have to think about it
stoic needle
gave me a nice idea for a weakaura
prisma perch
okay yes would be nice to track
stoic needle
uno momento
prisma perch
Thanks anyways I'll train on the doll :))
limber lion
gave me a nice idea for a weakaura
glow,if=debuff.vendetta.up|debuff.shiv.up|debuff.flagellation.up|energy.deficit<=25
stoic needle
energy deficit?
limber lion
Actually that reminds me that I need to do some changes to my wa as well
limber lion
energy deficit?
0-25 energy from max
limber lion
Ye, with Vigor it's higher.
fossil narwhal
what is it that is ocassionally making Shiv give me an additional cp?
trying to learn the spec atm
balmy condor
seal fate
also why fok gives you more than 1 cp
and why mutilate gives you more than 2 cp
balmy condor
yes
fossil narwhal
is sepsis affected by seal fate? can it be used to eek out the last combo point if at 4 and not running ds?
fossil narwhal
😅
if its a "lul nf" then meh
if its just "its compliciated just finish at max cp - 4"
balmy condor
well unless I forgot that they fixed it
fossil narwhal
seems like those are the 2 options
fossil narwhal
coming over from outlaw, i'm going to have to get used to saving vanish for the appropriate talent window
fossil narwhal
oh? ithough you were trying to save it for rupture/garrote/env-mut-env?
balmy condor
any guide should have openers
fossil narwhal
and one last question - if we dont play around seal fate - whats the reasoning for not finishing at max cp?
balmy condor
because mutilate is 2cp
balmy condor
and in aoe with fok, you can get either 1cp or like 50
so the max-1 rule applies there just cause fok is a nightmare
fossil narwhal
fok is still only used on 4+ targets right?
balmy condor
yep
gloomy fern
213 lashing, the 8 dps gain
fossil narwhal
and just to make sure I'm not reading this either not literally enough or too literally
IV says "from steath -> mut -> S&D -> mut ..."
balmy condor
yep
balmy condor
nop
fossil narwhal
or is it literally a "fuck it S&D with whatever you have"
balmy condor
just mut into snd
fossil narwhal
ok
balmy condor
snd refreshes from envenoms
cause we have cttc now
so the cp doesn't matter at the start
fossil narwhal
ah ok
thanks for humoring my questions - with outlaw theres a lot more "it depends" for a lot of these questions so I'm not sure if thats the case for a lot of assassin stuff 🙂
stoic needle
do you ignore envenom pooling rules during marrowed gemstones?
balmy condor
no
stoic needle
okay thx
unkempt ginkgo
Hi, can someone help. Ive been trying to improve my parses on inerva but i just get worse every week, and im not sure why. 'https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WdkmNyQAKXGgfb9B#fight=25&type=damage-done&source=20
stoic needle
@prisma perch @limber lion https://wago.io/3WddUC3LF
balmy condor
next person to come in here holding shiv gets their ass beat for free
river yacht
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
nocturne hawk
🤏 :
gloomy fern
i always hold shiv
gloomy fern
maybe need to soothe
placid palm
shiv sits in my spell book thats that pvp talent rite
balmy condor
I will provide myself as an enraged target
stoic needle
since when
prisma perch
<@!309380241951031297> <@!165215952479322112> https://wago.io/3WddUC3LF
Thanks :))
stoic needle
do devlins and aefnar's wa packs show you how to pool on envenom? i think not
stoic needle
Thanks :))
np, lmk if you have any issues with it
gloomy fern
pooling is for losers
stoic needle
doing more dps is for losers?
gloomy fern
the harder u click ur buttons = the higher dps
stoic needle
i dont wanna be stinky again 
fossil narwhal
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
fossil narwhal
oh man... which legendary to craft 😓
limber lion
oh man... which legendary to craft 😓
What content do you mainly do?
fossil narwhal
I'm only looking at sin for raid
limber lion
Probably Doomblade then.
fossil narwhal
Seems like thats at least safe
are there stat recommendations for the missives?
I know "sim" is the proper answer but my gear is not tailored to sin right now
balmy condor
haste crit
prisma perch
where can I train on dolls? order hall seems not scaled bcs i do too much dmg
balmy condor
covenant halls all have dummies
org/stromwind dummies are scaled
order hall dummies should be scaled as well as long as you hit the raider dummies
prisma perch
^venthyr dummies are too close to one another to work
balmy condor
prisma perch
i dont want padding tbh
balmy condor
I have not had that problem
fossil narwhal
does OH ilvl matter much? i had to use a LFR bead in order to be able to spec sin for now 😛
balmy condor
but you do you
balmy condor
does OH ilvl matter much? i had to use a LFR bead in order to be able to spec si...
it kinda matters, but not too much
main hand is the big one
prisma perch
when i proc a poison bomb it hits adjacents too 😦
fossil narwhal
my mh is a 226 domina's
limber lion
when i proc a poison bomb it hits adjacents too 😦
That's not a big deal tbh
balmy condor
I'm also not sure what dummies you're hitting that poison bomb hits both
balmy condor
cause I didn't have that issue when I was venthyr
prisma perch
the raider dummy is way too close to the rest
balmy condor
out of all the covenant halls, the venthyr dummies are actually the best
in my opinion at least
prisma perch
I love the nf ones bcs its isolated
balmy condor
necro dummies are shit
gloomy fern
he hits the dungeon dummies 
limber lion
Swarm, cleave, flying, raider, tanking, dungeoneer, the normal one
limber lion
the raider dummy is way too close to the rest
Went to test it for you and I can assure you that you won't hit the rest with your PB.
gloomy fern
not even close visually
prisma perch
ill try again xD
stoic needle
flying target dummy? tf? lmao
prisma perch
do I just use vendetta flag shiv on opener after snd?
limber lion
do I just use vendetta flag shiv on opener after snd?
I mean, sure.
But usually the opener is as follows:
Muti - SnD - Muti - Gar - Flag - Rup - Vend - Shiv - Vanish
But feel free to move things around if you want, doesn't really make much of a difference. Quite a few people use Vendetta after the second Muti.
prisma perch
vanish into mut into envenom right?
limber lion
vanish into mut into envenom right?
Muti - Muti - Env or Muti - Env - Muti depending on if you crit with the first Muti or not
limber lion
alpine garden
Why not vanish on 5cp into env - mut- env/mut?
limber lion
Why not vanish on 5cp into env - mut- env/mut?
Because with Deeper Strata you want to finish at 5-6 combo points, but you cannot get 5 combo points from a single mutilate.
So doesn't really matter, you always use 2 Mutilates and 1 Envenom during the MA window.
unkempt ginkgo
Hi, can someone help. Ive been trying to improve my parses on inerva but i just ...
could anyone help please?
limber lion
could anyone help please?
Sure, I'll check it out
unkempt ginkgo
thank you
ionic fox
Has anyone looked at the numbers difference for Zold vs Doom in P3 of Mythic Sire?
carmine token
I would be surprised if it's higher, the amount of getting away from the boss you have to do in that phase
limber lion
- You waste a lot of energy. You got beams once where you wasted around 50 energy, but you still waste a lot of energy even outside of mechanics.
- Your garrote/rupture uptime should be closer to 98-99%. You let your garrote fall off 6 times and Rupture 3 times. Pay extra attention to always keeping both up on your main target. Are you aware of the pandemic mechanic?
- You missed out on some Shiv casts. Just pay a little more attention on actually pressing it on cooldown. You're already doing it quite well!
@unkempt ginkgo
Nothing major to be honest, just make sure to keep your bleeds up at all times and not letting your energy cap as much.
carmine token
ive heard the word pandemic mentioned a bunch, is it a passive or something?
limber lion
Has anyone looked at the numbers difference for Zold vs Doom in P3 of Mythic Sir...
Yes we have. Zoldyck is around 300 dps more.
ionic fox
Thx ❤️
limber lion
Depends a lot on the character/gear/talents/mechanics/downtime etc.
unkempt ginkgo
like would i stay a bit longer to use more energy before doing beams
limber lion
But around 300 dps difference is a good estimate.
limber lion
like would i stay a bit longer to use more energy before doing beams
Generally you want to starve yourself if you know a mechanic is coming up and you're forced to leave the boss
That way you can pool energy whilst doing the mechanic and not cap it.
But it's not that big of a problem, always think mechanics first tbh.
Even if you cap some energy, it's not the end of the world.
unkempt ginkgo
yea makes sense
gloomy fern
u can often do beams without leaving boss as melee tbh
torn atlas
flying target dummy? tf? lmao
There are flying vamp dudes on the mission table side that you can use for range target dummies.
gloomy fern
unless double orb is closest
unkempt ginkgo
sometimes im forced to take thee far one, if our holy pal gets chosen cuz she doesnt want to move
limber lion
But yeah, you capped energy quite a bit even outside of mechanics, that's the main issue
You can clearly see where you got hit by the beam mechanic
But there's many occasions where you're capped for 1-2s
unkempt ginkgo
like i notice when i get a blindside proc but im like 80% energy, if i take the proc i cap for a bit
should i mut -> finish instead of proc -> finish
to not cap on energy
and save proc for after finisher
also how do you see that energy chart on wcl
limber lion
should i mut -> finish instead of proc -> finish
No, you always use the Ambush proc if you get it
But you wasted 720 energy out of 5256
That's more than 13%
Which is A LOT
It should be closer to 2-4%
unkempt ginkgo
jesus that is bad
dim temple
I see alot of top logs where EP is better BS.. and when i simc my char it says EP is best.. is this true? or just some off with simc?
limber lion
also how do you see that energy chart on wcl
Choose your character, then click on "resources". Then there's a button on top of the chart that says "Hitpoints". Click that and choose energy.
limber lion
I see alot of top logs where EP is better BS.. and when i simc my char it says E...
EP is better for a lot of covenants. DS is the go-to for Venthyr and for very high haste levels.
dim temple
ok thanks mate
unkempt ginkgo
thanks for the advice, ill try not to waste soo much energy
raven pecan
Why does my deadly poison damage show so much higher in sims than in game? It's a very significant difference
limber lion
Why does my deadly poison damage show so much higher in sims than in game? It's ...
Because in Details it shows up as 2 different damage types. It shows the instant damage and dot separately, whereas raidbots combines the two.
limber lion
thanks for the advice, ill try not to waste soo much energy
Also keep those bleeds up! Good luck
raven pecan
I know it shows as 2, but it shows being higher than CT. my CT is always significantly higher but poisons significantly lower
while everything else is pretty consistent among garotte/rup
fossil narwhal
whats the priority on using blindside procs?
limber lion
whats the priority on using blindside procs?
You just use it in place of your next Mutilate.
prisma perch
do i try to sync my dmg trinkets with vendetta?
limber lion
No, Vendetta doesn't affect trinkets.
Argument can be made for stat boosting trinkets, but not for damage trinkets like Memory or DFV.
Just use them on cooldown as well 🙂
prisma perch
I am using the quantum device which gives haste mostly
fossil narwhal
In the following opener: `Mut -> S&D -> Mut -> Garrote -> Rupture -> Vendetta -> Mut til 4+ CP Shiv..." are you still expected to shiv even if you are capped on CP?
limber lion
I am using the quantum device which gives haste mostly
You should try to get crit as your highest stat so you get crit from it during lust.
limber lion
Look at the actual values, not percentage.
prisma perch
307 crit 597 haste 371 mastery 481 vers
limber lion
In the following opener: `Mut -> S&D -> Mut -> Garrote -> Rupture -> Vendetta ->...
Yes. The sim suggests using Shiv right after Rup - Vendetta.
limber lion
307 crit 597 haste 371 mastery 481 vers
You might want to sim your gear with different enchants/gems.
prisma perch
yes I have crit on my ring but only on 1
fossil narwhal
Yes. The sim suggests using Shiv right after Rup - Vendetta.
Ah ok, so the "Mut til 4+ CP" before Shiv in the IV guide is incorrect?
fallen current
Shiv on cd
limber lion
Ah ok, so the "Mut til 4+ CP" before Shiv in the IV guide is incorrect?
It honestly doesn't really matter.
You can do either can get the same result.
fossil narwhal
seems like tying Vendetta to Vanish double envenom is the main goal?
limber lion
seems like tying Vendetta to Vanish double envenom is the main goal?
Not really
Main goal is to keep bleeds up and using your abilities as much as possible.
There's no specific number of Envenoms you need to get during vanish/shiv/flag/vend windows.
fossil narwhal
keep bleeds up, cds on cds is simple enough
uneven plume
I noticed you have to pop vendetta earlier on m sludge
Or you won’t get it on 2nd pillar
frail fossil
you pop vendetta on pull
frail fossil
yeah
or smth like that doesn't matter if u add one more gcd
u'll have it back a bit before the charge
limber lion
Yeh, it's only Vendetta that needs to be cast earlier, everything else should line pretty well.
pure moth
Noted for when i get there.
frail fossil
Yeh, it's only Vendetta that needs to be cast earlier, everything else should li...
u can only get one cast shiv between pillars tho right ?
limber lion
u can only get one cast shiv between pillars tho right ?
Yep!
frail fossil
one day i shall get a decent sludge parse
frail fossil
For both of us
they let me in sire reclear
uneven plume
Is vendetta a gcd?
limber lion
Nope.
uneven plume
Kk
frail fossil
when u had 5 gcds before u could press damaging abilities 
frail fossil
Vendetta doesn't even do any damage
nothing personnal azerite 
limber lion
Feels great pressing an ability that just causes your character to point menacingly
limber lion
nothing personnal azerite <:2ez:587982296066424843>
Truuu 
But then again BF wasn't much better
It didn't even do damage in BFA
frail fossil
i mean the worse offender was having to BF, roll and adrenaline rush
that was major sadge
limber lion
Yuuup
prisma perch
I feel like i am always low on energy on the dummy
celest sail
i mean real talk, just dont
frail fossil
u dont rly loose anything
frail fossil
like all u have to do is make sure ur energy is under 100 and u dont miss casts
prisma perch
Okay:) how big is the pandemic window?
can I refresh with 7sec remaining or what the minimum?
limber lion
can I refresh with 7sec remaining or what the minimum?
It's 30% of the applied duration.
So for garrote it's 18x0.3 seconds
Which is 5.4s
Rupture is a little bit trickier because it depends on how high of a rupture you apply, but we can assume you only apply 5-6CP ruptures
So under 7s is fine :p
prisma perch
okay thanks
limber lion
Under 7s for Rupture, under 5 for Garrote.
You should get a weak aura for it, it makes it really simple
prisma perch
and if it runs out and i just have 1-2 cp do i just refresh?
limber lion
A weak aura that glows when they are in pandemic.
limber lion
and if it runs out and i just have 1-2 cp do i just refresh?
This doesn't happen
You don't let them run out.
Don't think "what if it drops"
soft shale
rupture on 6 cp is at 9-10
prisma perch
lets say i do a mechanic and cant refresh on time
soft shale
but remember 5 is 7
soft shale
you get used to look tbh
what im not used to is using CT in st when outside shiv
i do a weird tango with rupture/garrote
low girder
blindside proc
limber lion
Yeah, it's the same thing that appears on you Afenar Weak Auras.
Also, why don't you have poisons on my guy
@daring brook
balmy condor
poisons are optional
frail fossil
the poisons
balmy condor
oh my god
limber lion
balmy condor
yes
daring brook
ye?
balmy condor
you should use that
limber lion
You didn't in that screenshot
vital haven
afenar says you dont
limber lion
Might be the poisons
balmy condor
daring brook
kek
vital haven
can tuesday come by any sooner plz
balmy condor
20% is quite good
daring brook
so necro looks like it's not toooo bad right?
instead of vent
sims better than nf
oak cypress
when u crit with FoK does each individual crit give u extra combo point or will you only get 1 extra?
nvm
i just read seal fate says melee attack
mb
torn atlas
god damn i feel like i never have energy
I ran half of a m+ 10DoS with out poisons and didn't realise I had none of until totem phase of final boss. Standing there slapping the spirit waiting for energy that never came.
I've never made that mistake again haha
limber lion
so necro looks like it's not toooo bad right?
Necro is very good. It loses in ST but wins in higher target counts. It's also the better choice in m+.
torn atlas
I find it best practice before starting any activity to count all buffs I have. Depending on activity, it should be between 5-8 - poisons, weap enchant, flask, food, rune, flaedwing trink (if you use it). Probably another one I forgot lol
limber lion
i just read seal fate says melee attack
FoK still works with Seal Fate.
limber lion
I find it best practice before starting any activity to count all buffs I have. ...
I just use weak auras to tell me what I have and what I'm missing.
Don't need to think about it.
fathom swift
you get energy when your bleeds tick on poisened enemies
low girder
^
limber lion
You get more energy for poisons?
Our Venomous Wounds passive doesn't work if you don't have poisons on targets.
fathom swift
so if you dont have one or the other no energy
daring brook
Oh wow never knew that was a thing
I literally haven't run sin before
Just tried it
daring brook
Sheiiiitt
fathom swift
also why bleeds are very important
daring brook
I heard sin doing well in pvp
torn atlas
I just use weak auras to tell me what I have and what I'm missing.
Probably a much better idea.
limber lion
Probably a much better idea.
Anything works, if you have a routine setup for it, that's fine as well :p
daring brook
As my first lrggo
limber lion
Which leggo would you guys recommend if I'm playing all soecs
All specs? MA.
daring brook
Yeah that's what I was thinking
torn atlas
you get energy when your bleeds tick on poisened enemies
Just to be thorough, this is specifically only Garrote and Rupture, any other ability that could be classed as a bleed doesn't count - as per tool tip at least.
fathom swift
sure but thats basically only relevant for ct
torn atlas
Yeah. Just being thorough as I've seen people to make that mistake also.
prisma perch
pooling means waiting for energy even if i have max cp right?
frail fossil
pooling just means waiting for energy
prisma perch
does it matter when?
vagrant bison
Man, assasination is so much fun
first time trying it and i am already considering maining it the next patch
it doesn't seem to be so braindead as people say though
limber lion
does it matter when?
You just pool energy to around 30 from max before using Envenom
Outside of Shiv/Flag/Vendetta
daring brook
Sin seems so easy
balmy condor
it is
daring brook
So few skills lol
low girder
Just to be thorough, this is specifically only Garrote and Rupture, any other ab...
don't forget internal bleeding! 
limber lion
don't forget internal bleeding! <:kekW:740356074766336081>
... or doomblade
stoic needle
Dust walkers plus priest simp
i dont even think you need simp priest for 60s vendetta
shy dust
i dont even think you need simp priest for 60s vendetta
well its for sludge every pillar
low girder
why would you
stoic needle
well its for sludge every pillar
yeah, do you need less than 60s vendetta for that?
the initial duskwalker sims were wrong about the vendetta interval because of some apl jank, you can get 60s ones with near bis gear which you probably have
stoic needle
oh okay
low girder
close specifically on sludge right
vagrant bison
do you guys use CT in single target? the damage looks pretty low
low girder
i remember whispyr forcing haste onto dusk to get 60s vendettas but it didn't win still in normal conditions
limber lion
do you guys use CT in single target? the damage looks pretty low
Yes, outside of Shiv windows.
limber lion
i remember whispyr forcing haste onto dusk to get 60s vendettas but it didn't wi...
Sludge is a tough one to sim for though.
low girder
yeah sludge i can see
low girder
yeah
vagrant bison
you don't get many chances to use a 5 cp CT though? its pretty much once every shiv window?
limber lion
you don't get many chances to use a 5 cp CT though? its pretty much once every s...
No, OUTSIDE of Shiv windows.
Meaning when your Shiv is on cooldown and the target doesn't have the debuff.
When you use Shiv, you just use Envenoms
vagrant bison
ye, i meant that actually having enough energy or cp for it is hard
refreshing rupture
limber lion
Not really.
vagrant bison
so it looks like i can use it once outside of a shiv window
limber lion
That's fine
vagrant bison
before shiv comes out of cd again
limber lion
That's completely fine
You don't take CT for ST encounters, but you would use it in M+ and there you'd use it in ST as well.
prisma perch
when I open I feel that after mutilate my garrote takes a long time to activate idk why
vagrant bison
i tried CT in single target cause my poison bomb did very little damage. Thanks for the answer 😄
limber lion
i tried CT in single target cause my poison bomb did very little damage. Thanks ...
PB is still the better choice. :p
For now
limber lion
when I open I feel that after mutilate my garrote takes a long time to activate ...
That's pretty common when playing with Deeper Strata. Which race are you?
limber lion
😂 yeah i am a complete beginner
No worries, glad to have ya! 
low girder
PB is still the better choice. :p
then they randomly buff dashing in 9.1 and we're stuck with PB forever
soft shale
if you are not gnome
prisma perch
That's pretty common when playing with Deeper Strata. Which race are you?
Blood elf
limber lion
then they randomly buff dashing in 9.1 and we're stuck with PB forever
I wouldn't be mad.
eternal lance
guys can u help me about the taletn of doomblade
soft shale
just use torrent just after second mut
limber lion
Is Muti - SnD - Muti - Arcane Torrent - Garrote
eternal lance
doom blade lgendary
eternal lance
Is Muti - SnD - Muti - Arcane Torrent - Garrote
hi pro bruther 🙂
limber lion
That way you get energy during the time when you're usually starved.
dusk lion
Is race really critical now days?
limber lion
hi pro bruther 🙂
Hello 🙂
low girder
Is race really critical now days?
no
prisma perch
oh nice ill try that!
limber lion
Is race really critical now days?
Not really.
dusk lion
I went blood elf but was thinking of switching to troll
prisma perch
I saw that my opener sometimes does 10k dps on peak sometimes 15-17k
my crit isnt that high is that why?
low girder
that's MA
sometimes you get all crits
sometimes you get zero
(unless you run crit IQD)
prisma perch
i run MA talent
eternal lance
Not really.
can u healp me about doom blade talents ?
prisma perch
i have 307 crit or 20%
low girder
that's just how MA talent openers go. it'll even out eventually as the fight goes on.
prisma perch
it makes such a huge difference on the doll
limber lion
can u healp me about doom blade talents ?
What do you mean?
limber lion
You should sim your character in raidbots
eternal lance
owww
many tnx again
i fucking love u u always up my dps
: D
5.2 overall i lvl 211
prisma perch
so is it bad if i have shiv up in 1-2 sec and i spend my cp before using shiv?
or should i always wait this out?
balmy condor
a mess
limber lion
We actually managed to kill it
stoic needle
now you're a real gamer, congratulations
limber lion
i fucking love u u always up my dps
Good stuff, keep rocking it man!
prisma perch
https://gyazo.com/2d23a05455473f7bc9f00d04d0954b94
nice dps
pure moth
Nice
prisma perch
so can I just get a quick reply pls
so is it bad if i have shiv up in 1-2 sec and i spend my cp before using shiv?
limber lion
so is it bad if i have shiv up in 1-2 sec and i spend my cp before using shiv?
Ah no, you want to use Shiv immediately when it comes off CD
Especially if you're high CP because that means you can follow it up with Envenom immediately
eternal lance
Ah no, you want to use Shiv immediately when it comes off CD
what is rotation hit with doom blade ?
you know ?
limber lion
what is rotation hit with doom blade ?
It's the same, nothing changes.
prisma perch
So when shiv is ready in 3 sec and I have max CP i should wait it out?
limber lion
So Muti - Snd - Muti - Gar - Flag - Rup - Vend - Shiv - Vanish
limber lion
So when shiv is ready in 3 sec and I have max CP i should wait it out?
Well depends a little bit on your energy situation as well honestly
prisma perch
I could overcap on energy if I dont spend sometimes
limber lion
If you're at 0 energy, you would pool for Shiv
But if you're about to cap, then you would use
And then Shiv soon after
oak cypress
we never use poisoned knife do we? that 30yd ability
prisma perch
makes sense
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8XRYRvMkExTnEdpsFTXimn No Buffs I kinda get there on doll
limber lion
we never use poisoned knife do we? that 30yd ability
Nah very rarely. If you're about to cap and you're not in range, then you can
But normally you'd rather just pool for energy during downtime from boss and then start smacking Mutilates when you get back.
low girder
we never use poisoned knife do we? that 30yd ability
if you're out of range and can't get in for whatever reason. good example is when you get to sire in the intermission you can't actually use melees on him, so i just build CPs with PK there
oak cypress
thanks 😄
neat pulsar
assa in m+ vigor or deeper strat ?
limber lion
assa in m+ vigor or deeper strat ?
Vigor.
neat pulsar
thx !
oak cypress
its pretty much vigor but at a certain point deeper strat will start simming higher if im udnerstandign correctly right?
torn atlas
we never use poisoned knife do we? that 30yd ability
At the end of P1 Sire when you're waiting to fall in the hole. So you can slap a fat Rupt on Remornia at the start of P2.
torn atlas
At the end of P1 Sire when you're waiting to fall in the hole. So you can slap a...
Oh Mata already covered that haha.
oak cypress
oh btw when remornia runs away basically to do like impale and massacre
do your DoTs still tick on her?
balmy condor
yes
balmy condor
yes, it is
limber lion
both bleeds i mean
And poison 
oak cypress
yeah 😄
limber lion
Quite a few people just slap garrote/rupture on multiple targets, but forget to keep track of poisons on them as well
It's extra damage sure, but without poisons you don't get the extra energy
oak cypress
yeah thats the main thing isn't really tbh? that extra energy makes it easier to maintain multipel bleeds
limber lion
Yeah sure, but it also increases your prio damage quite a bit
pure moth
Quite a few people just slap garrote/rupture on multiple targets, but forget to ...
In that situation you can throw a fok to spread poison and continue though right? That way you don't have to switch targets..Or is that dumb to think?
limber lion
In that situation you can throw a fok to spread poison and continue though right...
FoK has a worse poison proc chance than Mutilate, you're better off just switching and Mutilating once.
You also melee at the same time, which increases the chance even further.
pure moth
True.
edgy cosmos
can anyone look over my logs for min maxing and some errors for sin can take ur time and give it to me in a few days if need be
limber lion
can anyone look over my logs for min maxing and some errors for sin can take ur ...
Sure, just post it here and I'll take a look.
limber lion
I'll look at your Hungering Destroyer from today as a start.
heavy skiff
how was the priority sim command?
balmy condor
Are you talking about priority_rotation=1?
limber lion
@edgy cosmos
So the major problems people usually have are pretty much non-existent in your gameplay, that being capping energy, wasting combo points, not using Shiv enough, letting bleeds drop etc.
I did find a few things that can potentially give you small increases in dps:
- You should cast Flagellation on cooldown. You missed out on 1 cast because you sync'd it with Vendetta. If the fight would have been less than 3 minutes, then it would have been fine to sync but because it was 3:33, you missed out on one.
- Generally you might want to start with Mutilate instead of Ambush. This is because you get more combo points, apply Doomblade on the enemy earlier, have a chance to proc Blindside with it etc.
- You might want to consider getting a better trinket to replace your Skulker's Wing with. IQD (when crit is your highest stat) sims a bit better than Skulker's and it's not too hard to get. Well, depends on you luck, but at least it's not time-gated or anything.
But your gameplay is really solid and you do everything pretty much according to the book. Next step is getting better teammates so you can push for faster kill times. 
edgy cosmos
im fighting with a 221eq rogue sometimes so i figured i was doing something wrong
limber lion
You might want to look into using Spectral Agi potions instead of Phantom Fire. They are more consistent and you are already running with 2 Sharpening Stones, which devalues PF some.
You can sim the food/oil/potions by using this:
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
limber lion
im fighting with a 221eq rogue sometimes so i figured i was doing something wron...
But no, you're doing very well and everything looks very solid.
heavy skiff
Are you talking about priority_rotation=1?
yes ty
daring brook
@balmy condor are you necro sin?
if so which conduits do you use?
Or honestly if anyone knows lol
daring brook
SF?
balmy condor
Sudden fractures
strange python
Sudden Fractures is worth?
limber lion
Yup for most.
strange python
I actually never tried it when I was necro, but tbh I kinda wana go back
I enjoyed having a rotational addition
edgy cosmos
@limber lion thanks for looking over them i still think im doing something wrong but at least ik some stuff that will help
limber lion
<@!165215952479322112> thanks for looking over them i still think im doing somet...
Well believe it or not, but you're not doing anything wrong. Just keep doing what you're doing, simming your character often and finding new potential upgrades and you'll be good.
edgy cosmos
i got a 220 dread but it sim higher
limber lion
I enjoyed having a rotational addition
Yeah, I'm planning to go with Necro as well once I'm done with Sire. Or a week or two after.
limber lion
i got a 220 dread but it sim higher
Try simming a 220 IQD while you have crit as your highest stat (by swapping around enchants/gems)
I guarantee you it'll sim the highest.
Some people just don't enjoy playing with the trinket, which is also completely fine.
calm dome
What talent you take for assasin in the 1st row ? Arena 2v2
strange python
Yeah, I'm planning to go with Necro as well once I'm done with Sire. Or a week o...
Same here, although I might end up rocking OL for him anyway so maybe I could do it earlier, they're both at r40 so it's w/e
limber lion
What talent you take for assasin in the 1st row ? Arena 2v2
Master Poisoner or EP for Arena, but take it to #pvp
calm dome
Thanks dude
limber lion
Same here, although I might end up rocking OL for him anyway so maybe I could do...
Yep, it's great for multispecing for sure.
strange python
I'll lose my dagger back piece though, this hurts my soul
limber lion
And with Koji constantly finding new gains with SBS, it's looking very very promising.
daring brook
can outlaw use a dagger? on off hand?
limber lion
I'll lose my dagger back piece though, this hurts my soul
I haven't even got one, not sure where I could get one. Would want one for sure though
limber lion
can outlaw use a dagger? on off hand?
Yes.
balmy condor
Sbs is a fucking mess of an ability
daring brook
thanks
balmy condor
Every time I look it just gives me a headache
fallen current
Yep.
limber lion
Every time I look it just gives me a headache
strange python
I mean realistically it was never even that bad for a straight 1 to 1 sim, but when you add in the fact that you can use sbs to snipe and such you CAN potentially work a ton of additional use out of it
I just enjoy it
fallen current
It still feels clunky to me.
limber lion
Koji probably knows the ins and outs of SBS by heart now.
balmy condor
It’s a generator, with a charge system, that’s instant damage, and a dot, and it has a cooldown, but it refreshes on kill, and it’s a projectile, but it’s also kinda not, and the dot can’t crit, but sudden fractures can, and the dot is affected by mastery, but the instant hit isn’t
Bone spike makes me want to fucking kill myself
stoic needle
I'll lose my dagger back piece though, this hurts my soul
Giving up the blade cape is the worst part of swapping to necro 