Engi, alchemy
#assassination
round harbor
prisma monolithBOT
rawrzillasor: The only two that have an advantage (╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻
limber lion
Engi, alchemy
Yeh, I vouch for Engi + Alch as well
storm forum
alch is a must for flavor reasons
limber lion
wow i tab back into game and my grp for necro 20 is full wish me luck
Good luck 
storm forum
wow i tab back into game and my grp for necro 20 is full wish me luck
fuck 'em up
limber lion
Yeh that's fine :p
thorny rose
Yeh, I vouch for Engi + Alch as well
do you level alchemy just buying herbs from the AH then?
welcome to #alchemy
strange python
im guessing venythr is best cov for sin?
limber lion
do you level alchemy just buying herbs from the AH then?
Tbh I don't even level it. I just use it to get the double duration on flasks :p
Having it at level 1 is enough
thorny rose
Lmao love that
round harbor
Yup
limber lion
im guessing venythr is best cov for sin?
For ST yeah, Necro is better for AoE
native lynx
do we stop haste stacking at a certain %?
storm forum
100%
storm forum
oopsies
loud light
not 134?
drifting light
But u also need 34 crit
prisma monolithBOT
ARONDH: wtf (❁´◡`❁)
round harbor
93% is half way to 99%
prisma monolithBOT
CEVERION: 92 ACTUALLY
round harbor
🦀
languid ivy
might be a dumb question but logs are conflicting, should I hold flagellation for vendetta or not?
limber lion
might be a dumb question but logs are conflicting, should I hold flagellation fo...
No, use Flag on cd.
You can line it up if you won't miss any casts.
languid ivy
vendetta as well or hold for a flag
limber lion
Both on CD
limber lion
yo guys how about master assasin tallent ?
It's the go-to in raids but yeah, not much in M+.
eternal sleet
rn im tilted to the max we lost tank at 5minutes left at last boss
AAAAAAAAAAAAH
rip +20 :(
dced when throwing spear
i cant belive that
limber lion
The red boys are back.
queen sonnet
Besides this amazing channel, any other places to get Rogue guides?
that go into detail, aside from the youtube streamer.
balmy condor
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
queen sonnet
sweeet, thank you.
split veldt
so PTR soonish, are we thinking we're gonna get buffed, nerfed, or left alone
stone pilot
Do any of those sources recommend having 34% crit
limber lion
sometimes i just like a detailed write up
Yeah, the guides written there are all made by wonderful RH Community Figures.
split veldt
34% is a lot of crit
limber lion
so PTR soonish, are we thinking we're gonna get buffed, nerfed, or left alone
I doubt Assa gets nerfed and rather other specs getting buffed. The outliers that were pumping throughout the whole tier will probably see a hit, like Boomkin, Fire Mage and SP.
But who knows, can't really say anything
Blizzard is Blizzard after all
split veldt
yeah sub always gets shafted, i feel for those boys
all 41 wipes of sludge last night, i didnt do too terrible, but i didnt exactly do amazing either
0% wipe hurt
limber lion
It's okay, once you're that close to killing it, you will surely kill it next time :p
limber lion
Hey but progress is progress
split veldt
truth, prog is the funnest part of the game to me anyway
limber lion
SLG is a long ride
Just gotta have the mental aptitude that you're going to be there for a long time
plain thistle
jesus
tribal mauve
we killed sludge tonight after around 80 pulls, now it's slg time 😢
plain thistle
500 wipes?
split veldt
nothing in WoW feels as good as a kill celebration after a long grind
icy crater
stoic needle
which ones on main/off
Doesn't matter
limber lion
if im using shaded sharpening stone and oil on sludge
Doesn't matter. I use Sharpening Stones and Spectral on every boss myself
Stones/Agi pot > Oils/Fire
We like consistency
coral imp
yeah its within 1 dps
coral imp
but i think on sludgefist if i get proc or something
limber lion
But think about it Jorh
split veldt
i saw a lot of the top sludge parses using double stone and agi pot on sludge, so im doing that, must scale better on lust pillar or something
limber lion
If you use a spectral agi
You deal more damage with all of your abilities
During the pillar
coral imp
yeah I know, it makes sense and is more damage
il try it in a pull, ive been using stones and agility and getting close to 7.5
split veldt
the one thing i noticed abut sludge is, the prog is cheap
save pots for lust pillar
lmao
coral imp
yea
split veldt
cept those 20+ runes i used once i could smell a kill and we didnt but w/e lmao
safe barn
they should make WQ stuff interactable while in stealth
balmy condor
all world quests should just be "go to area and walk in a circle 10 times to get your exercise"
and then it deposits 50k anima into your jar
and you win the game
hollow escarp
well, we already have a huge advantage being able to be stealth
I tried to do the maw on a different character
I can't understand how people do it without a stealth class
safe barn
Just don't do wq
have to do that maw dailies
gray fjord
I mean that's what I'd expect at this point, @balmy condor.
I've done 18 bajillion dailies, why do I need to do more? 😉
limber lion
I haven't done a single daily after the first week
balmy condor
I play the game
gray fjord
why am I not 900 ilvl
INJUSTICE
gray fjord
limber lion
I opened up my vault and didn't get a 226 phial and 233 weapons, must be bugged.
rare slate
I'm currently necro, and sims are suggesting I open with SBS from stealth (with MA talent).
Can anyone tell me if this is correct? Or what the opener is for for necro in general
hollow escarp
I think the sims still say that for Sepsis
limber lion
This is the second time someone has suggested that you open with SBS
hollow escarp
at least if you check the quick sim ability breakdown
limber lion
I think the sims still say that for Sepsis
I don't think so ever since they updated the Sepsis+Shiv+MA interaction
balmy condor
I'm curious if koji's APL line broke or something
gray fjord
I mean
balmy condor
sepsis from stealth hasn't been a thing in a while
gray fjord
With cut to the chase
hollow escarp
I don't think so ever since they updated the Sepsis+Shiv+MA interaction
haven't checked since 1st week of 905 tbf
gray fjord
It doesn't really matter how much CP your first hit gives, since you'll be refreshing it with an envenom(most likely within the duration?)
wide elbow
is it better to flag on cd or to delay it for vendetta ?
hollow escarp
slam 
balmy condor
hm
gray fjord
If you won't lose a Flag you can line them up, but if you do lose one it's bad. Sludgefist is maybe like the only exception
limber lion
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uuBsXactNMrmKv4ZWz872S
That does seem kinda weird bgl
hollow escarp
let me check a sepsis opener
gray fjord
Pretty sure mine doesn't use sepsis in the beginning
hollow escarp
need to find a NF for that 
gray fjord
I can check
balmy condor
it definitely does not
hollow escarp
I haven't checked my char since I joined venthyr
rare slate
I was under the assumption the opener was still mut > snd > mut, but sim is telling me differently lmao
hollow escarp
gonna be weird since I have m+ gear https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iXfeD4cMsr8iw3MxGQ1qQU
I'm dumb
I have subt
gray fjord
You dodo
limber lion
lul
gray fjord
Yeah no NF first move opener does not use sepsis with MA, I was pretty sure it didn't as Whispyr mentioned too.
hollow escarp
too lazy to login
balmy condor
I was under the assumption the opener was still mut > snd > mut, but sim is te...
yeah so as expected
limber lion
too lazy to login
Use top gear to change the talents my boy
balmy condor
the mut snd mut
limber lion
Or just change the simc
balmy condor
is exactly the same dps
limber lion
It has the talents written as 23323123
hollow escarp
Use top gear to change the talents my boy
it doesn't show opener like it does in quick sim, or does it?
balmy condor
because the difference of that 1 gcd is actually inconsequential
hollow escarp
true
rare slate
I guess I'll stick to mut snd mut
wide elbow
can u help me plz is it better to flag on cd or to delay it for vendetta ?
hollow escarp
I actually tried a few times the quicksim opener and it wasn't bad 
limber lion
it doesn't show opener like it does in quick sim, or does it?
Nah but if you generally have to change setups, you can use Top Gear to do that and then just copy the builds from your Top Gear sim to a Quick Sim
hollow escarp
before 9.0.5
gray fjord
If you won't lose a Flag you can line them up, but if you do lose one it's bad. ...
@wide elbow
gray fjord
Yeah weird, running MA I assume?
gray fjord
Hm
Unless you were like completely out of energy going into the vanish, then that might make sense
hollow escarp
it's awkward though because vendetta and vanish don't line up that close because the extra few gcds
gray fjord
But you get like 60 energy from vendetta I thought.
hollow escarp
yeah
limber lion
I actually use a slightly different opener nowadays
I use Arcane Torrent between Muti and Garrote
limber lion
It is unfortunately
gray fjord
Wow
hollow escarp
oof
hollow escarp
and orc racial is off gcd lol
gray fjord
Yeah I was going to say
I always feel like right before that first garrote I can't hit it that quickly.
gray fjord
Oof.
wide elbow
@gray fjord sorry didn't see the response, on a fight like destroyer or xy moz what is the best since u dont have a burst phase and u cant know for sure how long the fight is gonna be
hollow escarp
legion belf was pretty broken
gray fjord
<@!117802493454450697> sorry didn't see the response, on a fight like destroyer...
xD No worries. Really the value of lining them up is determined on if you know you won't waste the opportunity of an extra use of it. So if you run with a raid group or you know there is a rough amount of time your fight will take, then you can line it up safely if you really want to. Otherwise you aren't really losing that much by just dumping it whenever you can. Ideally you want full CP before you flagellate is about the only thing.
The opener is a bit different since you want to get all your DoTs/debuffs/SliceNDice rolling ASAP and using cooldowns immediately, hence why you probably won't be at full CP when you flagellate the first time. But that's a minor issue.
wide elbow
@gray fjord ok thx 🙂 i'm having a hard time to determine what i'm not doing or what i could improve to pump more dps
gray fjord
The big things are to be mindful of your bleeds when going into shiv. You ideally won't want to be refreshing ruptures/garrotes during a shiv debuff window if possible, meaning they should be refreshed prior/not need to be refreshed in the 9 second window of Shiv.
Pandemic refresh is huge too because it gives you extra wiggle room for lining things up.
wide elbow
yes i'm aware of these things
hollow escarp
man, I still do that so often, I wanna gouge my eyes out
randomly refreshing a rupture during shiv
limber lion
Just gotta be mindful of it, you'll get used to refreshing it before Shiv after a while
gray fjord
I do too. xD I switch between specs too often so I forget things here and there. I still goof my pandemics a bit but only by a second or two so meh
wide elbow
and i feel like i'm doing it just fine, few mistakes but overall i do what u just said, pull energy before shiv + bleeds are refreshed before shiv
hollow escarp
Just gotta be mindful of it, you'll get used to refreshing it before Shiv after ...
I could blame the fact that I'm focusing mechanics but it's just the "see flashy button, press it" brain 
wide elbow
i feel like i'm not good enough when i'm looking at my parses
gray fjord
Oh believe me, I hit free ambushes just because of glowy lights every now and then. xD
wide elbow
and dont really know what to improve
hollow escarp
I'm gonna start recording my gameplay
because I can see when other people make mistakes
so I could just analyze my own mistakes
gray fjord
I'm gonna start recording my gameplay
That is so useful my man. It helps a lot when I actually bother looking through my footage. lol
limber lion
Yeah it's easier to analyze when you're watching gameplay
hollow escarp
I cba checking logs
limber lion
You tend to tunnel quite hard when playing yourself
hollow escarp
I get bored after openers
gray fjord
Logs can be hard to pull information from, unless it's really obvious issues. Actually visual representation is massive.
And knowing what to look for, of course.
hollow escarp
on our council kill I had less dps than the venthyr prot pala
gray fjord
hollow escarp
not sure how logs calculate council logs
but I don't like that fight at all
just gonna try to improve my ST and attendant damage
prot pala was 9th dps, I was the sin rogue
gray fjord
Yeah I haven't touched mythic this tier. My guild doesn't plan on doing it so I'll need to pug it.
indigo mulch
Council is horrible. Ranged have a tendancy to cuck melee during Recitals.
hollow escarp
Council is horrible. Ranged have a tendancy to cuck melee during Recitals.
don't you guys stack? or the ranged just forget about it?
or do you mean dps-ing during recital?
indigo mulch
Yeah, the ranged has a tendancy not to stack on melee after you move the boss around.
hollow escarp
I've had a few wasted Vendettas because I got recital and I couldn't touch the boss
placid dawn
i got benched on council once because ranged kept fucking me up, just running way to fast since they had a bigger circle
hollow escarp
I asked to be benched but we don't have enough raiders
placid dawn
next time i just ran with them and took the dps loss pepehands
still didnt get weapon and now we are extending, unlucky
wide elbow
i'm cliping the first minute of my destroyer fight of yesterday
hollow escarp
I wanted to extend even if I don't have the weapon, but we have a guild friend that shared with us the Sludge quest
so we have Sludge available if we don't wanna re-progress council
wide elbow
can u tell me what u think about my rotation/opener https://clips.twitch.tv/SuccessfulSmilingDragonfruitVoteYea-gmjr1_5ZMui84lNf
placid dawn
i wanted to reclear cause my weapon is 210 lol
placid dawn
for me its 150 dps
we are on slg now though, pure cancer
so, wont even get a chance on the weekly cache for a bit
hollow escarp
can u tell me what u think about my rotation/opener https://clips.twitch.tv/Succ...
that's pretty much how I open but not sure what was your first ability?
or was it an unlucky mutilate?
wide elbow
unlucky mutilate xD
hollow escarp
ohh, and ask your RL to move you in the groups behind of the boss
you are gonna parry a lot there
young idol
am I the only rogue sitting in lfg for hours trying to get 1 key done?
wide elbow
tanks are tanking on both sides
hollow escarp
I think the recommended opener is with vendetta after flag though, but I still use it before
placid dawn
never gettning accepted to m+ is my life
young idol
ok glad im not the only one
placid dawn
my mage friend 1k io gets into 15s while i cant get into 10s
soft shale
around 1600 io you get invited quite consistently
hollow escarp
LFG sucks, just pug your key or play with guildies
placid dawn
mage friend is 205 ilvl too
young idol
both of those options arent options. the pugging is actually obliterating my key -4 like I'm cursed or something and my guild has 1 group doing 20's. wat do
is it really possible to have a series of unfortunate events like this lol
royal lantern
yes
wide elbow
@hollow escarp so you think i'm doing things the right way ?
young idol
just remove lfg and IO altogether
hollow escarp
<@!309124609352007680> so you think i'm doing things the right way ?
looks like it
but as I said, it's not the standard opener recommended
wide elbow
then i dont know whyi'm only parsing 55
wide elbow
i know that
storm forum
are you griefing your tanks by staying in during the circles?
wide elbow
but i really cant put the finger on what i have to change
storm forum
play elusiveness and just never leave melee
hollow escarp
my best pull so far was 5.6k dps with 80% log on hungering
but at least it's getting better every week
we are also killing it faster and faster each week
wide elbow
@storm forum i'll try but i think my RL will not agree xD
storm forum
yeah thats sick
limber lion
At least, that's how it should be imo.
hollow escarp
agreed
limber lion
Just work to improve yourself every week and eventually you'll get there
hollow escarp
kill time and team comp also helps a bit but you shouldn't rely on those to improve though
I think getting 2 consumes does make you lose some dps though
yeah, top logs are all 4-4.5 min
but it's not all about that
wide elbow
thx guys for the infos and all 🙂 i'm just not used to be the blue parse guy
hollow escarp
blue is better than green 😉
grizzled orbit
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
strange python
I fucking hate council
frail fossil
i mean playing assa on council would give me severe depression ngl
hollow escarp
most of them were as assa 
strange python
It is fucking depressing
The tank did more damage that my rogue friend on one pull
frail fossil
just funneling niklaus in p3 is great too, still played outlaw cuz it was more fun to me
but like i think council might be one of the least enjoyable fight for assa players
i would simply never play it as assa ngl 
dry copper
what's the usual # of stacks you guys get on flag (during opener)?
cerulean nest
on opener, after the initial set up the order should be shiv>vendetta>vanish>envenom right? just wanting the order for those four specifically
or vendetta>shiv>vanish
drifting cloud
vendetta isnt on global anymore
limber lion
or vendetta>shiv>vanish
This
indigo valley
I got a ring from M+. How do I sim it at 220 to see if its worth upgrading?
limber lion
do you macro vendetta and shiv together then?
No, don't macro anything together.
limber lion
I got a ring from M+. How do I sim it at 220 to see if its worth upgrading?
You can use Gear Compare or Droptimizer for that in Raidbots.com
cerulean nest
No, don't macro anything together.
why not? just curious
limber lion
why not? just curious
Because you rarely want to press stuff at the same time and the same way every time
cerulean nest
huh. feels like i would always want a shiv with envenom though. if i have shiv also bound to something else by itself
with vendetta*
warm parcel
limber lion
There are situations where you want to hold Vendetta, but not Shiv
wide ridge
did you guys go nadjia or theotar for M council? i'm going nadjia but sometimes i waste the haste proc on dance
considering going theo
safe canopy
how long before guild notices i didnt swap back to outlaw for slg prog
limber lion
how long before guild notices i didnt swap back to outlaw for slg prog
Hopefully just one or two pulls.
We had a Fire Mage who swapped to Frost and our RL didn't notice until after the raid. lul
safe canopy
We had a Fire Mage who swapped to Frost and our RL didn't notice until after the...
lmao
i really dont wanna swap but its inevitable. some china dude ran through the top of the logs today for sin
mans got 8 pis for slg 😂
rotund oar
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GJbzABcgCXkvLQn6/#fight=8&type=summary&source=10 Could someone tell me what I'm doing so wrong, is it just gear, or am I just playing incorrectly
limber lion
Sure
balmy condor
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GJbzABcgCXkvLQn6/#fight=8&type=summary&sour...
uptimes could be higher, you're missing shiv casts
limber lion
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GJbzABcgCXkvLQn6/#fight=8&type=summary&sour...
You missed out on a few Shiv casts
stoic needle
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GJbzABcgCXkvLQn6/#fight=8&type=summary&sour...
You're low ilvl and your guild's dps is low
balmy condor
it adds up
limber lion
You won't be parsing 95's when everyone else is parsing green/grey
rotund oar
so on my part, it's mainly just the shiv casts
limber lion
There's other small things as well, but those don't matter as long as your gear is bad and the group is bad.
rotund oar
ok, thank you
stoic needle
Don't fok on inerva ever
drifting cloud
I mean you can parse 95 on such kills
but you probably need to be 225 and not missing raid buffs
stoic needle
There should never be more than 3 targets total
halcyon zealot
so after a month i finally sacked up and went venthyr from NF
in terms of opener
do i just flag where i was using sepsis
limber lion
but you probably need to be 225 and not missing raid buffs
Highly doubt that.
rotund oar
didnt even notice I press fok, must have been a misclick
limber lion
The fight being literally almost twice as long as a normal kill
balmy condor
do i just flag where i was using sepsis
yeah that's fine
balmy condor
tbf speed kills are kinda important
but the kill time lining with your cds is the main one
4:40 is a fairly good kill time
it's definitely doable without the kill time though
just kinda difficult, needs crits, etc
limber lion
took me 10s to find a log
Yeah I parse 95+ on most of my boost kills as well with literally 8 people afk
drifting cloud
problem is boost kills are still faster than that 
but its definetly not some insane thing to pull off, just harder
limber lion
But yeh, even in the kill you linked there's most people parsing blue or better
Link me a log with everyone at green/grey parse and just a rogue at 95+
And I'll accept it
drifting cloud
what the fuck does the overall parse matter
its just 20s faster kill time
nice nitpick
stoic needle
I think the point is the overall raid dps
limber lion
I was literally saying that if everyone in your team is parsing green/grey, you most likely won't be parsing 95+. But yeh, I'm just meming. The damage of your raid directly correlates to the time of the kill, so it's the kill time that matters and not necessarily the parses themselves.
stoic needle
You can't get a good parse if the rest of the raid is complete dog you need at least a few pumpers
limber lion
But yeh, it's definitely possible but wouldn't count on it.
Easiest way to improve your parses is to find a better group.
undone eagle
Guys
Is assa even welcome in 20+ or higher keys?
Feels like people take it as a troll
limber lion
Is assa even welcome in 20+ or higher keys?
Depends on the group
If you play with the same group, then why not
undone eagle
Well im pugging everything
limber lion
It might be a bit difficult to pug as Assa on +20 keys
torn atlas
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RZrHWQkcYy8gNbvD#fight=10&view=rankings
This is also a good example for why HC raiders shouldn't be so focused on parse at this point in time. Full gears with 2x 233 weaps dunking on a HC boss. There's no point comparing to them.
halcyon zealot
insta 200 lashing from WB 5 sec after swapping venth EZ game
undone eagle
I hope they nerf this boring spec
halcyon zealot
now to gamble 10k styg at venari for 213
drifting cloud
its a 4:45 kill timer, hardly call it dunking
with 12 buyers we still kill inerva under 4min
and you can also be pretty geared as a hc raider
outside of 2-3 slots basically up to par with mythic people
but yeah you might need some pvp or alot of vault luck
limber lion
and you can also be pretty geared as a hc raider
Yeh I agree. I think I have like 3 mythic items and that's it.
Most items are from the vault.
low girder
i have many mythic items but they were almost all from the vault too 
stoic needle
I've killed 2 mythic bosses ever and I'm 223
limber lion
Also don't think it's a fair comparison because you can pad hard on Council
You can on Inerva as well to be fair
winged basin
where do I fit in Flag on opener?
limber lion
But yeh, I do think that it's close to impossible to parse 95+ on a boss like Hungering Devourer if everyone else is parsing green. At least on Inerva you get more uptime on the adds if the raid is really slow with killing the adds.
torn atlas
its a 4:45 kill timer, hardly call it dunking
I did more mean the raw 7k dps output, rather than kill time.
Fair points tho. I'm also not saying people shouldn't come looking for advice to improve, they should just realise that parses are going to be thrown off by people who are doing higher content than them (or getting jacked on PI) and not just comparing apples with apples.
limber lion
where do I fit in Flag on opener?
Just before the first rupture.
winged basin
so mut snd mut garrote flag rupture vendetta shiv mut mut vanish envenom?
verbal vessel
that was in feb btw, not sure if i have any hungering with everyone else having bad parses as sin but ill look
have a lot of raids with many bad randoms
drifting cloud
I did more mean the raw 7k dps output, rather than kill time.
Fair points tho. I...
I mean sure its just where you drag the line, for me PI parses are irrelevant even if people get so worked up about them there just so few of them, just having all raid buffs and a semi respectable kill timer with "okayish" gear are things that are all more important
limber lion
so mut snd mut garrote flag rupture vendetta shiv mut mut vanish envenom?
Yeh but you vanish earlier
Or well, doesn't really matter. Yeh, looks good.
winged basin
so that vanish envenom needs to be earlier?
drifting cloud
but yeah if youre gonna ask how to parse better at 210 ilvl the without warrshout theres alot of easier answer than just not missing 1 shiv cast
limber lion
No, you vanish after the shiv
low girder
you can vanish after the shiv since you're only getting 1 envenom during MA with deeper anyway
winged basin
okie dokie
low girder
but it won't change much
winged basin
not using MA using Doomblade
low girder
yeah, the talent
low girder
blame blizzard lol
compact basin
I burst for about 9.3k running subterfuge and doing
Garote, snd, ambush, mut, rupture(if 5 cp), vendetta, shiv, mut mut, envenom, (by this point garrote is about 3 secs remaining), vanish, garrote, mut, envenom
Then for the rest of the fight it's just managing the bleeds and using vanish and vendetta combo whenever off cd
strange python
so mut snd mut garrote flag rupture vendetta shiv mut mut vanish envenom?
Vend flag
strange python
where do I fit in Flag on opener?
After vend before rupture
odd flax
conduits for sire M prog?
limber lion
conduits for sire M prog?
Lashing Scars with Dauntless Duelist if you're Venthyr
odd flax
any tips on the end/finesse?
stoic needle
The extended shadowstep range one and probably recuperator
odd flax
nice... oil and and phantom for boss dam?
stoic needle
Sure, it doesn't make a notable difference either way
limber lion
nice... oil and and phantom for boss dam?
Stones/Spectral Agi are more consistent, but doesn't really matter
limber lion
do we save flag for vendetta?
Use it on CD.
limber lion
All bleeds up, pool a little energy before it, use it before a 5-6cp finisher
winged basin
I havent gotten to play my rogue like all expac so I am sorry for mundane questions
thank you boss
limber lion
Good luck
limber lion
I havent gotten to play my rogue like all expac so I am sorry for mundane questi...
That's what we're here for
:p
winged basin
🙂 been playing my fire mage, for all prog 5/10 but missing my rogue BAD.
out here parsing 90 ilvls without any practice on heroic fun run, missed it
strange python
do we save cooldowns on sludgefist?
limber lion
do we save cooldowns on sludgefist?
For every other pillar, yes.
limber lion
You can use Shiv once between pillars, but you always save the second Shiv.
You always save Vend/Vanish/Flag and sync them for every other pillar.
If you lust 4th pillar, you use cooldowns on pull/2/4
If you lust 3rd or 1st, you use cooldowns on 1/3
winged basin
can you cos the first consume on hungering?
to continue dpsing?
is that the cheese lol
shy dust
to continue dpsing?
You can
Its a 6 second cast
So just take the first 2 seconds then cloak
violet wasp
guys the ghost of Xymog can evade w vanish?
steel oracle
Hi i'm actually leveling a rogue, I was just wondering how the playstyles of assassination and subtlety were different
winged basin
Hi i'm actually leveling a rogue, I was just wondering how the playstyles of ass...
assass is dot management, sub is cd management
in simplest terms I can think of
steel oracle
What do you mean by cd management?
steel oracle
Oh
What is more fun to play in your opinion? I'm trying to decide what to run once he hits 60
winged basin
personally, I like assassination, alot of people think its boring compared to Sub though.
steel oracle
Is the rotation any less complex on sub?
split grail
How could it be, sin is like 3 buttons
low girder
they're around the same tbh
winged basin
yeah sin is pretty boring, but I love it, have always loved it
steel oracle
The legion mogs are amazing
Is there a way to manage keybinds for abilities you use while you're in shroud?
regal chasm
Sin gets pretty hectic in M+ tbh
split grail
I prefer simple rotations and complicated boss mechanics
steel oracle
i might just focus on pvp with this toon
stoic needle
Is there a way to manage keybinds for abilities you use while you're in shroud?
You don't use abilities in shroud
Do you mean shadow dance?
steel oracle
Like ambush for assassination i mean @stoic needle
Abilities that can only be used in shroud
winged basin
stealth?
steel oracle
yeah that's what i meant
stealth
my bad
Is there a way to manage keybinds for skills used while you're in stealth?
balmy condor
you can macro it with a stance macro
like /cast [stance:1] X; Y
which would cast X in stealth, and Y otherwise
steel oracle
I mean is it always the same skills you use in stealth or would you need to change it up depending on the situation?
balmy condor
you don't cast ambush from stealth currently in any situation
so it would just be like cheap shot versus kidney
and whatever other utility spells you'd like to bind
maybe sap in place of something
low girder
i personally have everything the same in and out of stealth except poisoned knife becomes sap
that's it
odd flax
should I FoK at p1 of m denathrius for prog? spread dpoison, get 5 cp... if running doomblade
balmy condor
I don't have any specific stealth things
low girder
i have CS access out of stealth as habit from being fae lol
balmy condor
should I FoK at p1 of m denathrius for prog? spread dpoison, get 5 cp... if runn...
yes, fok on the small adds, and then envenom into denath
spending time dotting the adds isn't worth it because they die too fast
so the best you can do is a sort of pseudo-funnel
even though it kinda doesn't work that well
low girder
tfw 10 adds spawn and you hit FoK and get 1 combo point
odd flax
I see
low girder
upside on sire (at least mythic) the timing works out for me that adds spawn as i'm hitting the vanish so you can set up an envenom -> fok -> envenom in the MA window
odd flax
also, is it worth Feint the Blood Prices? if I miss like 0,5 sec of the cast, I still take full dam
odd flax
ok ty sir
low girder
make sure you do it near the end of the cast or it'll drop while you're up in the air
cursive pasture
on mythic inerva do i dot the small adds?
solid mica
how yall line up cd's on sludge?
low girder
pull/2nd/4th if you get 4 pillars
and basically 1 shiv outside pillar, 1 shiv in, although from my testing on (admittedly non-mythic) i think you can get 2 shivs in before first pillar and it'll be up
drifting cloud
you can yes
low girder
every other pillar you can't though
low girder
on mythic inerva do i dot the small adds?
i would dot the big guy, i wouldn't bother dotting the small ones but i could be wrong
brazen perch
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
young pebble
how to parse on council with ass
Gross
winged basin
sin >>>>>>>>>> ass 
torn atlas
Sin, Sub, Slaw.
harsh jasper
do you go aoe build for huntsman?
lunar wave
doomblade is still best to put on hands?
slow marsh
yes
brittle pawn
anyone know what stat rating DR starts at?
steady basin
Hey, I'm reading the pinned message, what are "SLG shoulders"?
one of the pinned messages*
brittle pawn
the shoulders that drop off slg 
steady basin
lmao what does SLG stand for?
brittle pawn
stone legion generals
steady basin
ahhh
proper sage
anyone know what stat rating DR starts at?
30%
half lotus
anyone know what stat rating DR starts at?
there is an add on called true stat value that can show you when you hit DR
safe barn
can i sim different races?
drifting cloud
https://pastebin.com/HZz5T6eT this in advanced with
green peak
Why do many guides suggest opening with mutilate, not ambush, from stealth? Ambush is much higher damage.
low girder
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
green peak
I see. Thank you
low girder
np
viral zodiac
Is there any recommended "all in one Assa weakaura bundle"?
kind veldt
About 1000000 on wagio @viral zodiac
low girder
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
viral zodiac
Thx!
rain estuary
whats the best assassination legendary for venthyr?
round harbor
somber hill
Question: if u get a blindside proc in your MA window do you consume it or still mutilate given the logic stated above?
limber lion
Question: if u get a blindside proc in your MA window do you consume it or still...
You use it. It's a free Ambush, opening from stealth with Ambush isn't.
balmy condor
does any1 have the bis list? xd
We took it away cause people started clowning and using it to make vault decisions and such
vestal wren
so, how do i know whats bis now?
gleaming sorrel
just wanted to see which dungeons to prio tbh but i guess i can sim that aswell
balmy condor
Yeah just use droptimizer for that
gleaming sorrel
ye
vestal wren
^
balmy condor
Honestly should get rid of the sub one as well tbh
vestal wren
i haven't seen anyone use the bot command in a while
vestal wren
i mean, your example is just somone not using his gray matter
balmy condor
Yeah the problem is that said person was just 1 of like 15
vestal wren
if somone takes a lfr item over a mythic one, i wouldn't blame it on a bis list
balmy condor
And if 15 people use the bis list to justify a bad decision
That I know about and who I talked to directly
I fear for the unknown amount that DIDNT tell me
vestal wren
fair
round harbor
if somone takes a lfr item over a mythic one, i wouldn't blame it on a bis list
Blame it on the extra chromosomes
limber lion
Some people are dummies and just follow guides/lists/videos religiously without questioning anything. A loooot of casuals or newer people just simply don't necessarily realize what's better.
hollow escarp
pretty sure a new player that would just theorycraft alone would do better than a guy that follows a guide blindly
sullen pagoda
eeeh i dont know about that one mate
hollow escarp
why not? the game is pretty basic
limber lion
You'd be surprised by how dumb some people are
sullen pagoda
I've seen some "new player theorycrafting" first handed and it can be mindblowingly wrong
limber lion
Yeh same
sullen pagoda
o thats a minor gain loss situation im talking about straight up wrong
balmy condor
Yeh
I’ve seen some crazy shit as well
Master poisoner + mfd + venom rush single target
hollow escarp
when I play a new spec I try to figure stuff out myself and then check some guide or class discord and most things are kinda common sense
balmy condor
Because poison damage is our largest source of damage
So master poisoner buffs it
And mfd for more envenom uptime
dense hamlet
balmy condor
And venom rush for more mutilate for more envenom uptime
hollow escarp
that's some secret technique
limber lion
Yeah like "oh I've been using exsanguinate because i thought it would stack if i never let bleeds drop" or "I chose a 200 ilvl item because it has better stats than 226"
balmy condor
It’s difficult for a lot of us to see the true depths of hell that the lower end of the community puts itself through
But trust me
There’s a lot of cursed shit down there
hollow escarp
I'm kinda curious what's the worst talent build
like the most awful talent combo
hollow escarp
that sounds like a fun challenge
final star
hollow escarp
I think the worst choice you can make in talents is picking anything else other than Alacrity
dense hamlet
atleast we dont have a talent that picking it is more dps loss than not picking a talent
dense hamlet
monk serenity
hollow escarp
I've seen max playing serenity on SLG last night
dense hamlet
how did that go
dense hamlet
yeah
hollow escarp
balmy condor
That talent/lego combo in full bis sims under 6k
balmy condor
why not go TTb
Cause ttb is better
dense hamlet
well
hollow escarp
I like that mechanic
that's why I play the conduit that reduces cloak/evasion cd
evasion is kinda meh outside spiteful weeks
but for cloak it's pretty nice
rain estuary
is it better to put doom blades on shoulders or hands?
hollow escarp
hands
balmy condor
I thought it was the azerite power
That’s ttk
hollow escarp
That’s ttk
true
sullen pagoda
https://i.imgur.com/IUgux6s.png my hungering talents this week after forgetting to change after huntsman
hollow escarp
I'm not even changing talents for huntsman anymore
thin obsidian
guys im struggeling with what legendary i should use can someone help me out? ::/
hollow escarp
guys im struggeling with what legendary i should use can someone help me out? ::...
for what content?
thin obsidian
m+
limber lion
guys im struggeling with what legendary i should use can someone help me out? ::...
Doomblade raids, Zoldyck/MA m+
hollow escarp
zoldyck or ma
thin obsidian
whats ma?
hollow escarp
Master Assassin
limber lion
MA myself
thin obsidian
yea im gonna go full assa
limber lion
I myself have had much better experience and dps with MA than Zoldy
tawdry falcon
dont we spend the first 3 seconds out of stealth garroting 3 things though?
final star
MA with EP, NS, MfD 
thin obsidian
yea
limber lion
And my MA is r1 and Zoldyck r4
thin obsidian
was thinking that too
balmy condor
dont we spend the first 3 seconds out of stealth garroting 3 things though?
We do
final star
Wonder when it's gonna sim mfd NS in dungeonslice correctly
limber lion
dont we spend the first 3 seconds out of stealth garroting 3 things though?
Ye with Subt
balmy condor
Wonder when it's gonna sim mfd NS in dungeonslice correctly
What’s wrong with it
final star
It's not opening packs with mfd+CT
thin obsidian
so is the dps for ma good in the small window when u garrote the 3 targets?
tawdry falcon
i haven't tested it my self, but it seems like the execute one would do more damage with our opener being just setting up the dots
final star
@limber lion knows more about why its simming incorrectly
tawdry falcon
unless the crit chance applies to the entire duration of the garrote
final star
That's the main observation I've found
hollow escarp
so is the dps for ma good in the small window when u garrote the 3 targets?
it's also good for vanish resets
thin obsidian
i notice that ma has the best popularity here xD
will get it then as my first legendary
tawdry falcon
its useful for many, many things
king shit in torghast because you can kill most things in that 4 second window
thin obsidian
so ma is it then
hollow escarp
have fun 
balmy condor
It's not opening packs with mfd+CT
?
crimson_tempest,if=talent.nightstalker.enabled&spell_targets>=3&combo_points>=4&target.time_to_die-remains>6
??
I can't believe
I actually got up
to check this shit
thin obsidian
so guys whats the best opener with ma in m+ lets say packs vs a boss?
tawdry falcon
- what am i looking at?
hollow escarp
balmy condor
CT from nightstalker
is literally top of the stealth APL
why did I believe you guys smh
I'm going back to bed
fucking hell
limber lion
I think Kieron is referring to the very opening where it does MFD - SnD, even if you sim 5T instead of a Slice
And then it opens with FoK
Also the Vanish conditional seems kinda odd where it vanishes and uses FoK from vanish instead of building to 5CP first before using Vanish - CT
balmy condor
Also the Vanish conditional seems kinda odd where it vanishes and uses FoK from ...
the nightstalker vanish conditional forces a vanish at max cp
final star
why waste the mfd on an snd
limber lion
This seems really odd. It's putting all big cd's on the big add and then using FoK from Vanish
Instead of Rupture/Gar/Env/CT
Which should all be better options
final star
I guess the sim isn't accounting that SnD is literally always up?
if you're playing well, that is
balmy condor
I think the bigger question is why are we only casting 6 abilities in over a minute
balmy condor
I guess the sim isn't accounting that SnD is literally always up?
what
limber lion
I've just kept my mouth shut because the TC boys have been doing this shit for YEARS
balmy condor
wtf kind of fever dream shit is this
limber lion
Just let the theorycrafters do their thing
sullen pagoda
hollow escarp
4.4k dps
limber lion
Or find a gain by simming it yourself.
hollow escarp
hey, it happened to me on a boss
I had poxstorm in main hand
and didn't understand why mutilate is not working
balmy condor
I'm always hyped when people think of ways to improve the APL that I haven't thought of before
I'm down to test any substantiated claim of a gain
no questions asked
little sky
ohai erryone
balmy condor
but it makes me so fucking mad
so incredibly mad
when people just claim the sim doesn't work
without having any fucking clue
what it actually does
little sky
does someone have some minutes to spare and give a look at a warcraftlog? just to piint out blatant errors that i do.
limber lion
does someone have some minutes to spare and give a look at a warcraftlog? just t...
Sure, feel free to post the log here
little sky
ok, lemme get the link
side question: should i stay outlaw for slg/sire or can i go assassination for those fights.
limber lion
side question: should i stay outlaw for slg/sire or can i go assassination for t...
Outlaw for SLG, Assassination for Sire
hollow escarp
private log
little sky
@limber lion thx. we're a VERY chill group, we're still progressing on sire hc.
ouch. ok i'll ask if it can be made public
anyway, just a very basic question at this point, managed to do 5.7k on sludge as assa, 217 ilvl. cannot give armory link as i logged out as outlaw right now 😛
balmy condor
I think Kieron is referring to the very opening where it does MFD - SnD, even if...
for the record: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aENK9YRSQjGxkbERdAQ6KQ
limber lion
for the record: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aENK9YRSQjGxkbERdAQ6KQ
There we go
tough beacon
zoldyck on which item?
balmy condor
zoldyck on which item?
legs
tough beacon
ty
final star
limber lion
for the record: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aENK9YRSQjGxkbERdAQ6KQ
See, this is why I didn't say anything or suggest an improvement.
balmy condor
There we go
that's specifically removing slice pre-combat
balmy condor
link
limber lion
Not sure why I even got dragged into this lol
balmy condor
that 2:40 one is fine, it's 2 target
limber lion
This is true for 2T.
balmy condor
that's what it's supposed to do
the 2:20 one seems to happen when it finishes a pack with CP
it doesn't want to mfd cause of overcap, but it doesn't want to CT because not enough cp to finish
can maybe try something hacky to get that to work
limber lion
it doesn't want to mfd cause of overcap, but it doesn't want to CT because not e...
Yeah this probably also explains the screenshot I posted earlier.
limber lion
Where it does Shiv - Gar - Vanish - Fok
balmy condor
03:19 onwards as well
3:19 is 1 target
limber lion
@balmy condor Any idea why it does this?
https://gyazo.com/6b7773fe81a1ebf015ee76389daab4f2
final star
smalladd1 2 and 4?
final star
and 3
balmy condor
smalladd1 2 and 4?
that's literally an entire minute later
limber lion
I mean it looks similar to the
balmy condor
yes
limber lion
CP from previous pack thing
final star
it's same pack
limber lion
Any clue if it's worth to use MFD/CT when stealthed on 3+ targets even if you have 3+ cp already?
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> Any idea why it does this?
https://gyazo.com/6b7773fe81a1...
same concept of not enough to finish, too much to generate, except it's 1 target this time
final star
I assume that's the CP thing again
final star
too many cp to overcap
limber lion
same concept of not enough to finish, too much to generate, except it's 1 target...
Yeh makes sense
final star
too little to ct
It's hard to get sims to take into account
me stopping dps at max cp
as a mob is about to die
instead of spending
balmy condor
well that's probably a loss anyway
final star
if a mob is on 0.5% and I choose not to spend, it may be a gain to not spend surely
strange python
Hey what should i sim to see a proper stat weight for dungeons?
balmy condor
Hey what should i sim to see a proper stat weight for dungeons?
dungeonslice
strange python
Thanks ❤️
balmy condor
if a mob is on 0.5% and I choose not to spend, it may be a gain to not spend sur...
it usually isn't
limber lion
Whis and Whispyr
@balmy condor
Is using MFD on 2-3 combo points in stealth with NS against 5 targets a loss?
balmy condor
we're about to find out
final star
limber lion
Looks like 2 targets again
limber lion
why is it using fok
It's actually using Muti as the first generator, which suggests 1-3 targets. I'm assuming the sim chainpulls instantly after that.
Could be wrong, don't wanna put words in anyone's mouth.
little sky
Another question on sire, CT because of adds/cleave or standard st?
balmy condor
It's actually using Muti as the first generator, which suggests 1-3 targets. I'm...
that's my guess as well
final star
more often than not in actuality
you don't open until the pack is group enough for CT
since it's range is pretty fucking massive
more often than not it's a patrol that get's pulled over quickly too
and if you're in a decent group
final star
with a tank who knows how to play with rogue
hollow escarp
well sometimes you have to wait even with subterfuge just so you can properly open
final star
chain pulling isn't done unless absolutely needed
balmy condor
people will complain that it chain pulls, and complain that it doesn't
people will complain that it's too much aoe, and not enough
people will complain that the fights are too short, and too long
hollow escarp
as a night elf I don't mind chain pulling , I hate chain pulling pride into boss when it's about to die 
limber lion
as a night elf I don't mind chain pulling , I hate chain pulling pride into boss...
This is actually giga-troll of your tank if they do this
final star
not the be all end all
hollow escarp
This is actually giga-troll of your tank if they do this
neah, he instantly apologized 
final star
it can only be so accomodating
limber lion
Good :p
balmy condor
dungeonslice values have been changed and twisted over and over to fit the models that people have in their heads of what it should be, and it didn't have any large change to the evaluations it provides
hollow escarp
just habit
final star
unless you specifically tell it no chain pulling when rogue lol
wooden kiln
Hello guys,
I started focusing on my sin spec, can I link my armory or smth to someone so he can help me on which items should I focus to improve my dps? ^^
balmy condor
a fight type has nothing to do with "accommodating classes"
that's not how fight types work
final star
cos that's actually more frequently the case with a rogue
limber lion
Hello guys,
I started focusing on my sin spec, can I link my armory or smth to s...
You can use Droptimizer in Raidbots.com for that mate :p
It will tell you all upgrades you can get and how much of an upgrade they are
limber lion
So you can make your own choices of whether or not you want to grind for the items or not
balmy condor
what or who is simming it
final star
yes exactly
wooden kiln
Oh yeah didn't think about it, sorry thanks a lot mate 🙂
final star
which is an inherent issue with it, no?
limber lion
Oh yeah didn't think about it, sorry thanks a lot mate 🙂
No worries!
final star
a tank
will avoid chain pulling
if there is a rogue
in comms
saying don't chain pull
the sim cannot accomodate that
if the fight type does not care
balmy condor
it can, and it has
and it didn't change the evaluation
this has all been tested
dungeonslice started out as a full sim of a 35 minute +10 dungeon in legion
based on logs
that's what it started as
wooden kiln
I've seen so much ppl playing with differents talent: what's the point of playing EP+Vigor or BS+DS? Is it just about sims aswell or maybe some raiding situations where one becomes better?
balmy condor
and then it got shaved down and refined to a 6 minute sim, with pulls that we see today
final star
Yeah
balmy condor
and that's because the shaved down version
provided the same results
that the full dungeon did
limber lion
saying don't chain pull
But now there's already so many outside factors and variables that the sim cannot account for. Whether or not your in comms, whether or not the tank chain pulls, whether or not you get stealth between packs, whether or not your tank is having a bad day and has muted all of you etc.
final star
Exactly why I said the sim should be used as a guideline rather than the be all
balmy condor
I've seen so much ppl playing with differents talent: what's the point of playin...
BS + DS sims higher, EP+Vigor is what weirdo's use for some reason because they don't like DS
final star
It's very difficult to account for human interaction
prisma crescent
final star
hollow escarp
another issue with chain pulling with a rogue in group is that rogue is not really the main damage dealer in a M+ group, and most groups play with outlaw where it doesn't matter that much if you chain pull or not
in premade groups you can make it work, but in pugs 
sullen pagoda
i basically always run celerity
final star
I also disagree that rogue is not main damage dealer
rogues bring consistency
and accomodating that is valuable
sullen pagoda
but in the end m+ is just weekly 4-10 15s for me all i care is raiding
hollow escarp
idk about that, I'm fine with being 3rd damage and being a melee support spec
hollow escarp
also good players appreciate when the rogue does all the intrerupts while they blast
like I've heard from people that they like that I'm using blind to stop casts
final star
the value of rogue goes up the higher groups you go
hollow escarp
and I'm like, ofc, what else would I use that for? 