Hands if you have access to mythic slg shoulders
#assassination
reef axle
serene basin
guys, is shiv really not showing in ''casts'' tab in logs?
indigo mulch
I mean where you going to use vendetta if its not on a pride outside of a boss.
marble hemlock
theyre going to fix that
serene basin
gloves, i guess
burnt star
U use vendetta on cd. On pack btw. Dont hold only for pride boss
U just need to time ur cd
graceful mirage
Hands if you have access to mythic slg shoulders
thats sludgefist? anyways we're stuck in heroic denathrius, so thats a no
upper condor
what talents did you play in your m+ runs as assa @marble hemlock ? i´m playing like 2220023 fells fking clunky with MA
marble hemlock
2212223
indigo mulch
I mean, if you use it on pride your mage don't have to use combust on it. He can combust the next pack instead.
reef axle
Stone legion generals
upper condor
so with vigor
indigo mulch
If you ask me thats a better tradeoff
marble hemlock
if theres no boss after pride, you should always be the one popping cds on it, as our CDs arent aoe like pretty much all teh other classes
reef axle
Is weird. Deeper strat sims higher for me, but vigor works so much better for me ugh
graceful mirage
is there any major differences on which piece you choose?
indigo mulch
I mean you can build up some huge bleeds with CT with flag
marble hemlock
even if the boss is coming up, id argue youre better off using CDs on pride and then get a second vendetta during later stages of the boss
reef axle
Not much difference, just stats mostly.
marsh yew
oh
there is 0 difference because shoulders and gloves give the same amount of stats, it's in the pins though.
marble hemlock
that way you get 2 uses of flag/vend on pride+boss compared to just one big one with a longer lasting pride
marble hemlock
but its obviously very situational
indigo mulch
but its obviously very situational
agreed.
graceful mirage
because currently my shoulders are better than my gloves, so kinda feels bad crafting it there
arctic pulsar
does Serrated Bone Spike work with doomblade ?
upper condor
thank you @marble hemlock raidbots tells me its best, i do 6-6.5k overall with deeper Strat but i simply dont feel it xD
rigid pine
but its obviously very situational
Very true
marble hemlock
its all about communication and making sure someone pops on the pride
can be you, can be the mage, all depends on what comes next
graceful mirage
thanks anyways
vestal wren
@balmy condor
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nWn7baC2ie56jbKRs5Jmg6
apl change:
# snipe me baby
+ actions.direct+=/serrated_bone_spike,cycle_targets=1,if=target.time_to_die<=5
rigid pine
Sometimes it has happened to me where no one pops anything and the healer just gets oom during pride and someone dies so we either have to waste a cr or wait for res and waste some time of pride
dire spoke
bonespike isn't flagged for nrg gain right?
marble hemlock
nah
using at least one CD on pride not only makes it safer, but easily shaves off 10-15seconds on just that pull alone
to me it would always make sense to use vendetta on pride as id run zoldyck in proepr keys anyway
meaning i get a full vendetta on pride, and then it comes back up during execute on boss
restive raptor
lol no @dire spoke
marble hemlock
thank you <@!210784027752398848> raidbots tells me its best, i do 6-6.5k overal...
you should never look at the dps output from a raidbots sim for dslice/aoe and consider that the dps you should be doing in a mythic+ though
onyx wind
I think theres def a case for holding as assa in tyrannical keys
marble hemlock
the reason im not a big fan of DS is because running subterfuge with a triple garrote opener without vigor is just... not fun
onyx wind
Our damage with lust+pride is insane
marble hemlock
so is everyone elses
you gonna beat a boomy with CA/mage with combust?
in opener burst?
onyx wind
Its not about opener burst, its about overall dmg on boss
If we hold till after lust+pride we lost a lot of dmg
marble hemlock
but how is a pride lasting 15sec longer a gain over a boss lasting 15sec longer?
onyx wind
The alternative to assa holding cd's isnt that noone uses cd's
its that someone else uses them
onyx wind
Doesnt feel like that right now
marble hemlock
that would lead back to my initial question
are you beating mage combust openers or boomie with CA?
its a bit of a rhetorical question actually, as you shouldnt be beating them
onyx wind
If mage doesnt get PI, i ususally beat mages yes
upper condor
the reason im not a big fan of DS is because running subterfuge with a triple ga...
thx again Seli :)
onyx wind
Im not saying assa should never pop on pride
marble hemlock
i mean, if mage beats you only with PI, you should be getting PI
onyx wind
I think PI still goes to mage to get 2x combusts in pride window
But yea
Assa burst is really really good
Not in the first 10seconds
but first 20-30
marble hemlock
as i said, its very situational, but you dont bring a rogue to hold CDs on prides and force other classes to use more valuable/powerful CDs on it instead just cause so rogue can look good on meters for once
onyx wind
Yea i agree with your logic
strange python
at which point is it more worth to use DS? it feels like am lagging energy when i am not playing vigor, i have problems to hold my envenom buff up
marble hemlock
rogue plays a very supportive role in Mythic+, that means your disrupt tools and utility toolkit enable other classes to do more damage than they would be able to do without your presence
rogue has very powerful upfront damage, and ideally youre allowed to hold CDs on prides to pump the boss after. the question is whether the dps you gain by doing so, is not lost somewhere else
and from what ive seen, most other classes you run keys with, still have stronger burst than assa with pride
onyx wind
In my experience, its a gain to hold compared to most classes with lower than 3 min cd's
marble hemlock
like, theres no way im beating a good mage
or ww or boomy
they demolish me in the first 20-30seconds
onyx wind
WW boomie sure, but arent those 3 min cd's?
onyx wind
Yea theres def cases where u should pop on pride but
I dont think its something you should always try to do
Assa boss dmg is fat
marble hemlock
in a proper high key, mage is probably the best to have on pride. but that means they cannot have used combust on the aoe pull before, and depending on fight duration they might get 1 less combust on boss as well
onyx wind
Yea mage is what i would suggest aswell
marble hemlock
and neither of those drawbacks are worth getting a bit more rogue dmg
onyx wind
Lets be honest, its probably not "a bit"
marble hemlock
but i agree with what you said, if you can hold because someone else is doing it, its obviously a good thing
my concern over the last few weeks with rogue m+ talk has mostly been that people are looking so much at overall damage, that they forget that overall doesnt time keys, efficacy does
its been the same with outlaw ma/ks talks etc.
onyx wind
Yea for sure, i agree
marble hemlock
if youre playing for highest overall and sacrifice other classes dps or your own on actually important pulls, you shouldnt be playing rogue, because as of now that is not the role rogue fills in a group
you can be faster than other groups with lower overall dps
onyx wind
I get your point, but i think youre overplaying the supportive part a little bit
Its mostly for shroud
onyx wind
Yea assa is the spec with least utility
marble hemlock
im obviously looking at it from a very high-end pov
iron wire is really damn good tho
onyx wind
If u look at the very top level keys, outlaw is doing same dmg as boomie/mage
on overall
limber lion
Gotta agree that bigger overall damage =/= faster key.
marble hemlock
idk if i actually see that
limber lion
just tried out ep ct on huntsman
With Subterfuge? :--)
marble hemlock
outlaw being competitive happens in like
stoic needle
yup
marble hemlock
2 or 3 dungeons
onyx wind
Maybe, didnt look at all of the keys
marble hemlock
and MA played a big role in that
limber lion
I've never seen a rogue do anywhere near the damage that the meta classes do in m+ honestly.
marble hemlock
top is like the best rogue dungeon imo
onyx wind
Mage has really insane burst, but in high keys it evens out
subtle tundra
Mage has really insane burst, but in high keys it evens out
it doesnt
marble hemlock
depends on how much you play around the mage
limber lion
In higher keys mage gets combust for every pack
subtle tundra
cause in high keys you only play around combust
limber lion
Or at least almost
marble hemlock
high forti keys, mage sits at 9-10k dps
dull cloak
whats the avg overall for meta
marble hemlock
boomy 8-9
onyx wind
U guys can go look at jpc's runs
marble hemlock
id rather not
subtle tundra
1 person's keys != the whole class
stoic needle
jpc is a notorious padder
marble hemlock
hes examplary of the "play for big overall" attitude i was talking about earlier
whether that means popping agi pots on aoe instead of phantomfires on prides
or sacrificing defensive utility to be greedier with his dps etc.
it works for them, i suppose
onyx wind
Im just saying that outlaw dmg is nutty in high keys
marble hemlock
not compared to boomie/mage, idk
subtle tundra
ya know whats nutty dmg? war nf
marble hemlock
theres a few dungeons where you could do some interesting shit
like spires weapons with MA
but that stuff is gone now
onyx wind
You can always find a counter-argument since my argument is case-based
stoic needle
ya know whats nutty dmg? war nf
ancient aftershock + bladestorm 
onyx wind
There are no logs for m+
subtle tundra
yea im scared of that
onyx wind
no statistics
marble hemlock
well, there are, but success =!= proof
just because someone is successful in teh way they play, does not mean it works for everybody, or is even the best way to play
onyx wind
Sure, but it doesnt mean the opposite either
marble hemlock
it does when the wider community perception considers rogue to be the "enabler" and not the dps carry
so playing as if you are, will get you kicked
you still do amazing dps, dont get me wrong
onyx wind
I think "enabler" in 99% of cases means shrouding
marble hemlock
nah, not at all
marble hemlock
means throwing kidneys on the mobs that are shredding your tanks the most like a praetor in spires
onyx wind
But i think its really overplayed
marble hemlock
means gouging almost on cd to disrupt slimeclaws or borers in plaguefall to disrupt a tankhit when freedom is on cooldown
means throwing a shiv on the mob that rusn faster than the rest so it stacks up better for mage cleave
means kidneying a mob in flamepatch
mental kestrel
But why would you waste your dps if its unnecessary tho
onyx wind
I think kidneying in flame patch is a bit too far but
marble hemlock
define "unnecessary"
marble hemlock
if the mob is higher hp than the rest
and would run out of it?
is your 1 dispatch gonna do more dmg to it
mental kestrel
Sure rogue could do that, but is it necessary on every pack? No
marble hemlock
than it standing in patch 6sec longer?
subtle tundra
Sure rogue could do that, but is it necessary on every pack? No
its all of those adding up
marble hemlock
individually, none of those are super huge time-gains. over the course of a 40minute run, your plays like that can stave off half a minute of making sure packs die evenly instead of one mob being leftover with 20% hp while the rest is dead
or your tank having to expand an extra cooldown to survive those nasty tankhits you couldve disrupted but didnt
which means he has to kite earlier on the next pull
means mobs stand in flamepatch for less time
onyx wind
Sure but cant a vortex or DB do the same
limber lion
It's like playing Rogue-Mage in 2's. You use all tools available to set up for the mage. You don't necessarily want to try to pump out damage only.
prisma crescent
I mean Seli is right. Our role is utility, there are far better classes for damage carry than rogue
marble hemlock
so because you didnt wanna kidney/gouge, you lose 10seconds of flamepatch dps
cant tell me that aint worth
mental kestrel
But the time you save by „enabling“ might aswell be saved by doing 1k More Overall
onyx wind
Pretty sure a boomie brings more utility outside of shroud
marble hemlock
but youre not doing 1k more overall
sick plank
Sounds like you guys are arguing success of running +24s vs 19s. Cause there is no way you need to be doing all that optimization on 19s. So maybe you guys just aren’t on the same page in that sense. What do you both consider “high keys”.
onyx wind
Like top10 rio
marble hemlock
like 23-24+
onyx wind
same
limber lion
So both are talking about the same thing
prisma crescent
Idk why finn acting like a kidney is gonna cripple your dps
onyx wind
Im not saying you shouldnt do those things
marble hemlock
its not even a dps loss
onyx wind
Im just saying its not the main reason you bring a rogue
marble hemlock
its just your dps being lower, others being higher 😄
you sacrificing 200dps so others can do 300 more is worth it, and thats exactly what rogue does
better than anyone else, except monk maybe
subtle tundra
fuck monk 😠
onyx wind
I dont disagree, but that doesnt mean rogue does no damage and is only taken for utility
onyx wind
Or even considers that a supportive role
Boomie uses globals for treants and vortex aswell
Same logic applies
marble hemlock
well, yeah ofc
they also gain dmg themselves that way cause mobs stick together 😄
and dont move
timid cloud
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
onyx wind
I guess you could argue that boomie is also brought for utility but idk
marble hemlock
we generally dont gain dmg spending CP on kidney or a GCD on gouge
boomie does gain dmg keeping mobs stacked
onyx wind
I think rogue is mainly there to fill in gaps where mage/boomie has no cd's
and to shroud
marble hemlock
ye
mental kestrel
Well seli is basically saying rogue shouldnt try to min max dps because theyre brought for utility, im just saying you dont have to spam cc on every pack because you certainly dont need it on most
onyx wind
Same thing monk and spriest does
marble hemlock
its sustained damage, low-impact cooldowns that are available often, and utility of kidney/gouge/shroud
marble hemlock
where did i say you shouldnt try to minmax dps?
onyx wind
I dont think we necessarily disagree, i just think youre putting a bit too much weight on the utility part outside of shroud
marble hemlock
well yeah, maybe i am
mental kestrel
In your statement that jpc is playing greedy because hes not enabling his team as much as he could but instead focusses on optimizing his own dps, thats basically the same isnt it
marble hemlock
but then ive always played that way, i know other rogues whove played that way, and they were usually well respected and more successful because of it
rogue didnt have the "core dps" role in mythic+ since mid-bfa
i said that thats not necessarily the best way to play for the majority of people
and the wider community perception of a rogue is not that it is a class that brings the highest dps
dull cloak
reaping was great 🙂
mental kestrel
I get ur point tho, i like playing a supportive role and all, But all ur team ever notices in a run is the overall dps and honestly its a fair point, because u dont „need“ to be cc ing on cd
solid ferry
He probably plays that way because his team has determined that's what's best for their success
marble hemlock
shitty players dont notice, yes
good ones actually ask you to do it, if they dont already know you will
solid ferry
He's actually talked about it on stream before
I believe the crux of it was that he shouldn't be using those tools to save teammates from themselves, they should just be better with mechanics
marble hemlock
its a bit of a mixed bag at that level of play though. timing keys is not proof of your success or your choices being correct. being better than other teams is. and as theres only ever a handful of teams competing under similar circumstances, whether its time invested, gear, practice or experience as a team, its hard to actively prove that this specific thing is the reason for your success
its easy to fall into the trap of saying "oh yeah, were successful, thus what we do must be best"
green saffron
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
solid ferry
I'm sorry, but that logic just doesn't make sense to me. There's only a handful of teams at that level because they're the only ones good enough to do it.
limber lion
I'm sorry, but that logic just doesn't make sense to me. There's only a handful ...
Notice the word "best".
marble hemlock
why doesnt it make sense to you that a team that plays 14hrs a day will have more success pushing keys than a team that does it for 6-8?
limber lion
It's not talking about "good enough for this key level" but "best".
marble hemlock
a team thats played together for a month or two will be more successful than a team thats just started playing together a week ago
whether its routing, cd management or communication
solid ferry
Don't you think a team that plays that much would be more informed on what works best?
limber lion
You can time a higher key with a different comp and a different route than a group at similar. But that doesn't necessarily mean your strategy is better than theirs
marble hemlock
Don't you think a team that plays that much would be more informed on what works...
no
because a team with 3.2k score might be worse than a team at 3.1k score
as r.io score is not a measure of skill
but a complex measure of dedication, time investment, skill, team coordination, and a bunch of other factors
limber lion
M+ is really complex in the end. It's not like you choose one tactic for every dungeon and pull that off every time to time your key.
marble hemlock
and skill only plays a part in that
limber lion
Yeah, you gotta adapt to what's available to you.
solid ferry
If the team with 3.1k score was better, why haven't they completed harder content?
marble hemlock
because maybe they didnt spend as much time playing
and as such didnt get the key they needed to beat the other team
limber lion
Maybe they've never even tried pushing for a key as high as the 3.2k team did.
solid ferry
You think a team at 3.1k and a team at 3.2k have such wildly differing levels of dedication/time spent? That seems silly to me
limber lion
It's not so black and white where "this team is bad" and "this team is good".
marble hemlock
if one team gets spires 26 5times and times it on the 5th attempt, and a second team only gets it once or twice and doesnt time it, is that proof that team A is better?
marble hemlock
You think a team at 3.1k and a team at 3.2k have such wildly differing levels of...
i dont think that. i know that. because ive spent the better part of the last 4 years competing at that level
balmy condor
You think a team at 3.1k and a team at 3.2k have such wildly differing levels of...
fatsharkyes famously raids very little compared to echo/limit, and they're still a top10, or in this case, a top 4 guild
marble hemlock
theres like 1 or 2 teams that can consistnetly push 14hrs a day in a pushweek
and they have good score ofc. other teams reach similar or even the same score at way less time invested
ruby ingot
hi does envenom and deadly poisons nature dmg count as magic? im just wondering if chaos brand from DH improves our dmg
balmy condor
hi does envenom and deadly poisons nature dmg count as magic? im just wondering ...
yes
marble hemlock
doesnt mean Team A is bad, just means that team B is probably gonna beat Team A if they had the time to play that much too
limber lion
Higher time investment does not mean that they're better at the game.
onyx wind
There is a very large gap between 1st and 4th in rwf
limber lion
There is a very large gap between 1st and 4th in rwf
There isn't though.
onyx wind
But yea time and time again quality > quanitity
it being working in real life
raiding aswell
balmy condor
lets say there is, do you think that gap doesn't exist in the top key groups?
magic thorn
why is mfd recommended for m+ in the pins?
balmy condor
cause it's sick
frail fossil
why is mfd recommended for m+ in the pins?
because it's better
onyx wind
Idk much about top key groups
limber lion
A guild that raids 18 hours a day until the tier is over and get rank 1 versus a guild that raids 4 hours a day get rank 4
marble hemlock
so youd say that a raidteam killing the final boss in 700 pulls is better than a team doing it in 500, becuase they came in first?
limber lion
Do you really consider that the rank 1 guild is significantly better than the rank 4 one when they've spent 5 times as much time on the content that they're doing?
onyx wind
so youd say that a raidteam killing the final boss in 700 pulls is better than a...
It depends on so much more than pulls
limber lion
Funnily enough FatSharkYes had half the amount of pulls on the end bosses of CN
onyx wind
The team doing it first probably has less gear and has to come up with tactics first
Yea im not arguing against that
just raiding
marble hemlock
people at the top-end dont steal strategies btw
balmy condor
that's a silly excuse
onyx wind
idk about rio brothas
solid ferry
@limber lion absolutely
marble hemlock
theyre way too deep into progression themselves
and if they do, they usually lose
marble hemlock
i.e. method having a bad strat for cabal and switching to pieces strat
after like 4days of smashing their head into a wall
marble hemlock
yeah. but its not like being "behind" gives you an advantage in being able to copy strats
thats just not how top-end progression works
limber lion
It can be used for other games as well. Let's take League for an example. Do you consider someone who has 700 games and a 52% win ratio at Diamond 2 better than someone who has 60 pulls, 65% win ratio and is Diamond 3?
onyx wind
Depends on how far behind you are
If other guilds progressed the boss before u even got to it
You prob look into hwo they did it
if u start at the same time, prob not
marble hemlock
if youre not too far behind, youre not in a position to copy strats. even if you do, youre not practiced at it, compared to the group that is
solid ferry
That's not the same comparison
limber lion
The one person has 10 times as many games, yet he's not miles ahead. It's neck and neck
subtle tundra
It can be used for other games as well. Let's take League for an example. Do you...
very different games
solid ferry
The same comparison would be someone with 700 games and a higher ranking
limber lion
Yeah it's pretty far fetched, but I think Seli summed it up pretty well earlier already
onyx wind
Winrate in league is very misunderstood
marble hemlock
heres my thought process
onyx wind
You can win 100%of ur games vs silvers and go 50/50 vs diamonds and still have 65% winrate
Doesnt mean anything at all
magic thorn
Is it possible to remove the enrage debuff with shiv in theater of pain ?
void pecan
yes
marble hemlock
yes
magic thorn
cool thx
solid ferry
yes with mind numbing on your wep
marble hemlock
ive played a lot of m+, esp in legion. ive played a decent amoutn on bfa, but i hadnt actually pushed that much. we managed to push into top5 after playing together one week, and playing 6hrs a day compared to the team thats been playing together for 3months and playing 14hrs a day. we were missing 1 key to beat them, which we never got.
can you honestly say, the team with the higher score is better?
onyx wind
I mean no
marble hemlock
its a perfect example of what im trying to say
onyx wind
But you cant call them worse just cause they put in more effort
marble hemlock
thats not what ive been doing though have i
i just refuse to accept that everything the highest r.io team does is "best"
limber lion
You can win 100%of ur games vs silvers and go 50/50 vs diamonds and still have 6...
That's why I used a comparison between 2 diamond players and not an iron and challenger
marble hemlock
and blindly accept any decisions or gameplay they do to be infallible
im questioning choices and decisions, because thats how i become a better player
solid ferry
Well duh, everything has a context
onyx wind
Yea noone should do that, but if it works it works
Doesnt mean its inherently bad either
marble hemlock
assuming what i do must be the best becuase im the most successful, is how you get stuck and fall behind
onyx wind
That's why I used a comparison between 2 diamond players and not an iron and cha...
Rank is all that matters if youre comparing rank
marble hemlock
and yet ive had to defend this position simply because i questioned the choices and decisions made by the "highest scored rogue"
onyx wind
If youre comparing playstyle then rank doesnt matter
marble hemlock
because others felt that they must be best
onyx wind
You get what im saying?
solid ferry
Man, all I did was provide you context as to why he says he plays the way he does, then you hit me with a bunch of hypotheticals lol
onyx wind
and yet ive had to defend this position simply because i questioned the choices ...
Questioning is different than calling it bad or suboptimal
marble hemlock
its a fallacy to assume everything a #1 player does is best.
marsh yew
^^^^^^^^^^
onyx wind
Which i think is what people here have a problem with
drifting light
Trying to justify being second cause u didnt put enough effort, but still calling urself better makes no sense to me
Success is not only talent
marble hemlock
dont think ive called it bad or suboptimal though have i?
onyx wind
Thats what i understood it as, but if that wasnt ur intention then i mustve misunderstood
marble hemlock
like, people are really damn quick putting word into each others mouth in these discussions, i dont get it. dont think anyone claimed to be the best in this entire discussion, have they?
reef axle
tested both vigor and deeper strat for 2 minutes vigor still pulled more, yet deeper strat sims higher is this normal?
marble hemlock
i certainly havent
vague scroll
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
marble hemlock
i can quote myself back to you if you want, all i said was that i think playing for overall dps is not what you are expected to do in the majority of groups that you are being invited to, and that you will first and foremost be expected to be the first player to sacrifice a bit of overall dps to make sure the run goes smoother/others can do more dps
marble hemlock
ye
marble hemlock
so its like... if youre in a group and everyones comfortable with each other and knows each others limits, go nuts. but if you join a group and expect to be able to push dps, never press kidney or gouge and be considered a good player, you might find yourself on the wrong end of the LFD tool
limber lion
Rank is all that matters if youre comparing rank
That's the thing, we're not comparing rank
icy crater
Best is also impossible to define with any metric of ranking system we have
best at what?
limber lion
But you keep saying that higher rank = better player
onyx wind
I never said that
marsh yew
when did they ever say that?
solid mica
newer to assassination here, what do you guys use to fill from 4-5 cp with double mut? or do you just finish at 4 sometimes?
marble hemlock
no, the problem is that a ranking system works very well up until you reach the highest 0.2% or even smaller percent of people
@solid mica you finish 4+ if you dont play deeper stratagem, 5+ if you do
limber lion
I asked you if you think that a guild that is rank 1 with 5 times the amount of time spent on the raid is better than a r4 guild with 20% the amount of pulls
And you said yes
Just because they spent more time in the raid, does not mean that they're the better guild
marble hemlock
no matter what game you look at, at the very top-end you can no longer claim that the highest ranked plaer is simply straightup better than the second or third highest rated ones. thats why they usually hold special tournaments for a more direct comparison
onyx wind
Yea i guess its easy to misunderstand what i mean
icy crater
in a race sense
onyx wind
Better can be quantified in many ways
solid ferry
Rank 4 guild can't rightly say they're better than the other guild until they beat them, can they?
marble hemlock
they can if they kill all the bosses in half the pulls
thin inlet
meh conversation is essentially just semantics cause you have to first define “better” or “best”
marble hemlock
whether they are correct in their statement
dark crag
Better in terms of time needed to clear
marble hemlock
is a different beast entirely
limber lion
Them spending 16 hours a day barely getting any sleep raiding does not mean that they're better at the game than the people who raid 4 hours a day but still manage to kill the boss in similar time frame with half the amount of pulls
thin inlet
it’s not productive to assume everyone understand your definition of it
onyx wind
They win the race, they win the race
solid ferry
It doesn't mean they're better, you're right
onyx wind
Thats the most quantifiable way to measure success
solid ferry
And still
limber lion
Being at the top first does not mean that you're the best
solid ferry
The rank 4 guild can't say they're better
marble hemlock
in terms of the rwf, theyre not better. they lost. in terms of overall gameplay skill? they might be better, they might not be. all you can say for certain, is that being #1 does not automatically make you the best player. you still could be, if theres even a way to quantify it like that. but success is no proof of skill and ability.
icy crater
Being at the top first does not mean that you're the best
This statement is correct, but it means you were at the top first.
limber lion
This statement is correct, but it means you were at the top first.
Exactly.
marsh yew
I mean in this scenario I don't really know what happened but lets just assume limit spends 200 wipes developing their strategy for council then fatsharkyes uses their strategy before even wiping once to council then limit wipes 400 more times and fatsharkyes wipes 500 just because fatsharkyes wipeed 100 less times I wouldn't call them a "better" raid team.
nocturne hawk
newer to assassination here, what do you guys use to fill from 4-5 cp with doubl...
Can fill with shiv to finish at 5, or refresh garrote into pandemic, or just finish at 4. Just try not to overcap with SF procs
marsh yew
there's so much context which is missing it's pointless to even argue at all
marble hemlock
people are successful for all kinds of reasons, and when people talk about "the best" the generally refer to skill first and foremost, and r.io score or a RWF placement is not a metric id be comfortable using in that context
icy crater
Is being the most successful m+ player synonimous with being the best m+ player?
That's really the point
limber lion
I would very loosely use the term "the best" when talking about players.
onyx wind
The best players dont even do high keys most of the time anyway
solid ferry
I mean, if they make it the race to world first in the fewest pull counts then maybe you might be able to get an accurate representation of who's better
marble hemlock
not entirely true exeo
frosty bridge
Well, maybe there is someone better than X player but doesn’t have as good teammates etc
limber lion
Especially in a game like WoW which is not the most mechanically challenging game and is inflated with good players.
marble hemlock
the best players achieve similar results in half the time, however.
frosty bridge
That’s the case for everything though, sports for example
sleek sparrow
anyone know how to update the afenar WA for flagelation for the new one?
solid mica
Can fill with shiv to finish at 5, or refresh garrote into pandemic, or just fin...
do aa count towards sf?
limber lion
anyone know how to update the afenar WA for flagelation for the new one?
He hasn't updated it unfortunately, you have to find a different weak aura for it or modify it yourself.
solid ferry
Maybe they're the best players at understanding/replicating other guilds' strategies?
marble hemlock
theres a reason we were as successful as we were in bfa, despite us only being able to play 4-6hrs before naowh had to leave for MDI practice each day. because we were really fucking good
void pecan
Lookin back at the good ol days eh seli?
marble hemlock
woudl we have been able to beat others peoples times with more time spent? idk. id rather not make a claim like that.
onyx wind
But putting more effort into something doesnt make u worse
Lets say u guys also played 16hrs a day
icy crater
Especially in a game like WoW which is not the most mechanically challenging gam...
It gets even more convoluted when you include other aspects of the game. Take someone who's a top 5 world raider, blizzcon finalist and top .1% m+ player, how do you even begin to talk about best in that context compared to other players.
onyx wind
That doesnt mean u inherently do better
marble hemlock
i dont measure any individual highkey players skill by their score, but the wider populace does
icy crater
That's like anything once you get good at it
grandmaster chess players don't look at their peers' elo rating they look at how the play
marble hemlock
to me sebek or ashine will always remain one of the best rogues to ever grace mythic+. they dont have high score to prove it, but to most high-end players they dont have to.
drifting light
the problem ultimately comes from the fact that a lot of people look at high r.i...
Well at lower scores, io shows that u have experience needed. At higher ranks I agree tho
heavy coral
!bis
marble hemlock
yeah exactly
heavy coral
sadge
frosty bridge
Does SBS bleed get buffed by Zoldyck?
marble hemlock
leaderboards arent designed to show who is best, theyre designed to quantify skill differences in bigger margins however
onyx wind
I dont think anyone is arguing that r.io score is equal to mechanical skill or game understanding
onyx wind
leaderboards arent designed to show who is best, theyre designed to quantify ski...
I agree 100%
marble hemlock
no, but theyre doing a catch 22 by saying that anything someone with a lot of success in these metrics does, must be true becuase if they played badly, they wouldnt be successful
as people often equate score to skill
as i said earlier, the world is more complex than looking at it through such a narrow lense
onyx wind
There are a lot of psychological stuff behind being successful with fewer hours compared to grinding it out
frosty bridge
Well, it’s especially hard to tell in games where your success depends on others
onyx wind
Same reason you dont put kids in school for 16hrs
You cant compare across effort or time spent
marsh yew
effort does not scale linearly with results
marble hemlock
and, as sad as it is, but at the high end certain players arent super respected or earned themselves a lot of credit, because maybe they havent played the game for long and only shown their success in one specific environment, or they just say or do things that the wider high-end community sees as "bad" etc.
onyx wind
Exactly, the more effort the less results u get for ur time spent
marble hemlock
so my pov is gonna be different for sure
onyx wind
So lets say raiding 16hrs a day gives u a 5% edge over raiding 6 hrs a day
marble hemlock
i know its stupid, but to me the legion high-end m+ players will always be "better" than the ones who werent as successful back then :/
onyx wind
Ur still gonna raid 16hrs a day if u wanna win
marble hemlock
everyone applies their own little metrics at some point to differentiate between different players and "rank" them
onyx wind
the 5% can be swapped with any number and the point still applies
marble hemlock
whos a better RWF raider? the one playing 1 class at 100% potential, or the one playing 5 at 95%?
gloomy fern
the gear swapping in legion was fun
marble hemlock
and doesnt that question depend on how good his 1 class is compared to the others? 😉
marble hemlock
yeah for sure. im just spitballing a bit as to how easy it is to rank players differently
at the very top-end
onyx wind
I think its just very important to understand for a lot of people
That spending less time and getting the same results
Or a bit worse results
Doesnt mean that ur better
It for sure doesnt mean that ur worse aswell, if i need to say this
marble hemlock
yep
exactly
its all about putting the very top-end in perspective
thats ultimately all i tried to do earlier too. someone at the very top might not be at the top next tier, or in 2 weeks time, and so its important to question their decisions and put them in context.
onyx wind
Completely agree
marble hemlock
hell, i was rank1 in sl for a while and played vigor isntead of mfd for a bunch of keys
much to the dismay of guy and a few others
onyx wind
rank1 assa pepelaugh
limber lion
rank1 assa pepelaugh
Outlaw my boy
onyx wind
fair, idk outlaw stuff
marble hemlock
for myself i only know that a lot of tanks like playing with me, because i make their lives so much easier and they can tank better because of it
limber lion
We'll convert Seli in a bit, he'll join our ranks eventually.
stoic needle
Sell is our lost prince
marble hemlock
unless assa does like 10-15% more dmg than outlaw like i did in bfa
theres no reason to play assa in m+
limber lion
marble hemlock
esp now that our CP usage is actually important so throwing a few cp on a kidney hurts a lot more than it did in bfa
where most of our dmg came from builders
stoic needle
royal lantern
onyx wind
fok feels so bad to use
frosty bridge
Does SBS bleed work with Zoldyck?
marble hemlock
always does with low crit
iron vigil
If im using the Zoldyck leggo for mythic plus. Should I use MA or EP talent
limber lion
Does SBS bleed work with Zoldyck?
Yes it does.
frosty bridge
Cheeeers
onyx wind
and target cap :(
marble hemlock
you mean MP v EP?
limber lion
If im using the Zoldyck leggo for mythic plus. Should I use MA or EP talent
Also they're on different rows, use EP and Subterfuge
And CT. Always use CT.
iron vigil
Master Poisoner
frosty bridge
Should I take Zoldyck over Doomblade if im necro?
limber lion
Yeah, use EP. MP is not really good.
limber lion
Should I take Zoldyck over Doomblade if im necro?
For what content?
Doomblade is still BiS in raids. Zoldyck is the go-to in M+.
onyx wind
HB > CT 😎
frosty bridge
For Sludge/Sire mythic
stoic needle
Doomblade seems to be pretty strong for some dungeons
frosty bridge
And i guess reclears
oak radish
isnt necro also adds one more bleed stack for doomblade to increase envenom dmg ?
frosty bridge
Outlaw for M+
onyx wind
Doomblade seems to be pretty strong for some dungeons
I literally do more boss dmg with zoldyck than doomblade XD
limber lion
For Sludge/Sire mythic
Well that's pretty tough because you want Zoldyck for Sire but Doomblade/MA for Sludge.
frosty bridge
I got MA since I play Outlaw
limber lion
A lot of players are using Doomblade on M Sire reclears though, so if you're a big lad then go for Doomblade
frosty bridge
I see I see
limber lion
Doomblade is used for every other boss.
onyx wind
Clarification: In m+ on 2 minute boss fights with a front loaded group :)
frosty bridge
Ughhh but I need to wait 2 resets for R4 :(
Sucks but what can you do
Though if the SBS works for Zoldycks it might not be that bad
stoic needle
I literally do more boss dmg with zoldyck than doomblade XD
Yeah, that's the point. In dungeons where you pull small and on tyrannical doomblade can be good
onyx wind
Im just really curious how sims for stuff like zoldyck is done
Cause in 99% of cases the boss will be at 30% hp and lower more than 30% of the time
due to damage profiles
subtle tundra
i miss bfa assa 
peak smelt
I saw a sim on here doom blade had same damage as zoldyck from 40% that’s what sides final phase starts at.
oak radish
but bfa launch assa with op garrote azerite power
peak smelt
Sire
onyx wind
But wouldnt you lust at 40% on sire
subtle tundra
no
peak smelt
If use doomblade
onyx wind
Meaning the initial 10% where there is no execute would be a lot shorter than the last 30%
peak smelt
I would
warped plank
Have I screwed myself crafting doomblade on shoulders instead of hands?
subtle tundra
nope
onyx wind
When
subtle tundra
idk the exact timing
peak smelt
Mages go with melee
onyx wind
Sure but im mostly interested in boss %hp at the time of lust
subtle tundra
i can tell you on my kill
marsh yew
Have I screwed myself crafting doomblade on shoulders instead of hands?
not really that hard, they both have same stats but you get shoulders off of slg. that would be the only reason for crafting on hands instead of shoulders.
onyx wind
Would appreciate it
subtle tundra
it was 21%
onyx wind
Aight ty
marsh yew
Have I screwed myself crafting doomblade on shoulders instead of hands?
with that being said I would recommend trying to craft em on hands and not shoulders for the reason I just said
warped plank
not really that hard, they both have same stats but you get shoulders off of slg...
I have the winged hunters gloves, crit haste which can be upgraded which is why I went shoulders
Figured they were better stat weights?
marsh yew
What stats on doomblade btw?
you have to sim since every character is a little different 🙂
frosty bridge
Cheers
subtle tundra
well simming is good only for your current gear so unless you're fully geared it will change so i wouldnt stress it out
limber lion
What stats on doomblade btw?
Haste-Crit or Haste-Verse is fine.
marsh yew
I have the winged hunters gloves, crit haste which can be upgraded which is why ...
if you have access to mythic slg shoulders they drop at a higher il than any other shoulders is the logic behind it so you can get il 233 shoulders but you cant get il 233+ gloves+
limber lion
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
marsh yew
unlesss you build the legendary on the gloves
warped plank
if you have access to mythic slg shoulders they drop at a higher il than any oth...
Ah right I didn't realise that! Not that we're at mythic yet, we're stuck on heroic sire :(
limber lion
Figured they were better stat weights?
Shoulders and gloves have the same amount of stats.
So you made the right choice, if you're not planning to kill MSLG
fading wigeon
It's a long trip from AOTC to mythic SLG. You made the right choice
eternal steeple
Hello ! Is necro better for mm+ with assa ? Or venthyr better in raid and mythic because of the haste buff ?
stoic needle
Necro is better in m+, venthyr for raid
nocturne hawk
tbf can still get 220 slg shoulders easily over m+ gear
stoic needle
It's about having 233 shoulders and 235 gloves vs 235 shoulders and 226 gloves
It's about a 30 dps difference
nocturne hawk
ah
dense bramble
in m+ should we CT with how many targets? and should we rup them all?
limber lion
in m+ should we CT with how many targets? and should we rup them all?
You wanna use CT whenever you can, but prioritizing putting up garrotes and ruptures.
dense bramble
even while only 1 or 2 targets?
limber lion
Try to get at least 4 bleeds running (garrotes+ruptures) and then maintain CT, apply Rupture to all targets that live the duration and fill with Envenom
limber lion
even while only 1 or 2 targets?
Yes.
But you don't want to spam it.
You just apply the bleed and reapply when it's in pandemic/about to drop
dense bramble
but it doesn't proc venomous wound, does it?
limber lion
No.
dense bramble
got it. Thanks mate
limber lion
got it. Thanks mate
You're welcome. You can also just dm me if you have any further questions and I'll hook you up
timid pond
sorry if this is over covered, but does anyone have a solid single target opener with venth to share? i've seen some different takes, based on sims and opinions
nocturne hawk
Be careful though... you'll get an invoice 
solemn mason
what is cttc?
unreal laurel
what is cttc?
cut to the chase
solemn mason
ahh thanks
unreal laurel
sorry if this is over covered, but does anyone have a solid single target opener...
with MA: mut-snd-mut-gar-vendetta-flag-rupture-shiv-vanish-mut-env-mut
viral vigil
So question, I'
am looking at Warcraft Logs top mythic players. Why are some people running Elaborate Planning over Blindside?
limber lion
am looking at Warcraft Logs top mythic players. Why are some people running Elab...
Don't look at Passassin's logs
fallow glacier
What are the odds that I get parried 3 times in a row 
limber lion
He's getting fed PI's and other external buffs, so his build is completely irrelevant
balmy condor
What are the odds that I get parried 3 times in a row <:SucksMan:586205462010003...
Shouldve stood behind the boss
limber lion
You will not be getting such spoonfed-treatment in your kills so shouldn't compare yourself to them
viral vigil
Ah. I also noticed people running Internal Bleeding? Whats up with that there..
limber lion
Ah. I also noticed people running Internal Bleeding? Whats up with that there..
That row doesn't matter.
viral vigil
Ah, ok. Makes sense
violet wasp
vigor rip talent?
nocturne hawk
He's getting fed PI's and other external buffs, so his build is completely irrel...
Glanced at it last night and think I saw one fight with 15 lmao
spice spire
Glanced at it last night and think I saw one fight with 15 lmao
Some people are just built different
nocturne hawk
lets go dude
viral vigil
Go go go
spice spire
My trial starts now <:prayge:803711491021733888> wish me luck boys
Best of luck brother, hard carry that guild 
viral vigil
I was an outlaw rogue before 9.0.5
limber lion
Glanced at it last night and think I saw one fight with 15 lmao
The best is his Council pull where he got 15 externals or something and didn't even get R1 
nocturne hawk
timid pond
with MA: mut-snd-mut-gar-vendetta-flag-rupture-shiv-vanish-mut-env-mut
@unreal laurel would you not want to shiv + vanish at 5/6 combos, so you come out of stealth with Env?
seems like you can fit potentially 3 envs in your shiv that way
strange python
Maybe I'm just smooth brain here. But reading the tool tip on lashing scars, doesn't that mean that the initial cast 4 more times initially? So it would do its 2k original lash 5x?
When I press it on a dummy or anything just the one time it doesn't appear to be doing anymore than base dmg
rapid tree
So what should our opener as Venthyr be?
ruby birch
Maybe I'm just smooth brain here. But reading the tool tip on lashing scars, doe...
no
the 4 additional lash is for the secondary part of flag
hence why when you use flag with the conduit you start at 5 stacks
at least iirc that's what it is
limber lion
So what should our opener as Venthyr be?
With the MA talent:
Muti - Snd - Muti - Gar - Vendetta - Flag - Rupture - Shiv - Vanish - Muti - Env - Muti
timid pond
Sorry for the repeat question, but why not envenom right out of vanish?
limber lion
Sorry for the repeat question, but why not envenom right out of vanish?
Idk, the apl just prefers using shiv and vanish asap, and less about fitting 2 envenom's in.
If you want you can do muti - shiv - vanish - env - muti - env instead
icy crater
whats prio list after gar + ct opener in m+
limber lion
Whispyr was looking at the reasoning behind why it doesn't muti once before vanishing but I don't think he found a proper answer, just a guess at best.
icy crater
snd then rupture biggest targets?
limber lion
whats prio list after gar + ct opener in m+
Putting up as many ruptures as you can on targets that live long enough, keeping garrote on cooldown and having CT on all targets
Then filling with Env
limber lion
You don't need to SND on 5-6 targets.
But you can try to keep 4-5 points when the pack dies so you can use snd before the next pack so you have it ready for it and don't have to cast it during combat
icy crater
yeah i do that when i dont run mfd just out of habit
limber lion
Yeh
stiff needle
do you hold flag to pair with vendetta or do you delay slightly to line up the haste buff with vendetta?
timid pond
If you want you can do muti - shiv - vanish - env - muti - env instead
Yea that makes sense, i'm just seeing so much variety in the logs of top parses. Seems like 50/50, some people are enving out of vanish, others mutilating
stoic needle
@limber lion do you use vendetta on pull on sun king or hold it for the first shield?
timid pond
maybe it doesnt matter too much?
balmy condor
do you hold flag to pair with vendetta or do you delay slightly to line up the h...
Not usually no
noble light
Is MA viable on assa rogue?
balmy condor
Is MA viable on assa rogue?
Sure
stiff needle
ty!
drowsy needle
does the Talent Master Assassin and Leggo Mark of the Master Assassin Stack?
jaunty fable
!bis
balmy condor
does the Talent Master Assassin and Leggo Mark of the Master Assassin Stack?
Yes, but I don’t see the point of having more than 100% crit
balmy condor
is phantom fire the play over agi pots for sin?
!Oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
cloud reef
due to haste i asume
jaunty fable
whats bis list command?
drowsy needle
@balmy condor ok ty i want to make sure so i could pick another talent instead of Master Assassin
cloud reef
yeah but i thought with haste being the best stat it makes it more consistent
ill stick to agi
balmy condor
whats bis list command?
Bis list was removed
jaunty fable
ah okay
limber lion
<@!165215952479322112> do you use vendetta on pull on sun king or hold it for th...
I'm so conflicted on it, I have no clue what to do on that fight. 😦 I usually hold for shield
When I was doing second shield, I think I just used everything on CD and it came up for it
Don't quote me on that though 
violet wasp
Vigor is a dead talent?
stoic needle
I'm so conflicted on it, I have no clue what to do on that fight. 😦 I usually h...
yeah i've heard the same thing about the 2nd shield
stoic needle
Vigor is a dead talent?
not really. it's good for m+, and usually bis if you have less than 10% haste as venthyr or less than 25% as other covenants
violet wasp
ty, i wanna try without it
hollow escarp
I asked my RL on what shiled do I pop CDs, he said rogue cds don't matter on that 
stoic needle
SMH
timid pond
@balmy condor Any sage clarity on prepping a big envenom to use RIGHT after vanish instead of using mut after vanish. I'm just seeing so much variety in the logs of top parses. Seems like 50/50, some people are enving out of vanish, others mutilating. Maybe its not that consequential overall
stoic needle
it doesn't matter overall
timid pond
got it
rapid laurel
That’s what I do
nocturne hawk
Irrelevant just like our CDs on sun king
rapid laurel
I like the feeling of shiv at 4 combo points into vanish
nocturne hawk
rapid laurel
Makes me feel pretty
shy dust
When I was doing second shield, I think I just used everything on CD and it came...
Vendetta shouldn’t
Come up for 2nd shield if used on pull
rapid laurel
Don’t really need to use vendetta unless you’re trying to parse tho
On pull
I literally spend that entire first 20 seconds on a pedestal
Other classes have better cleave
rapid laurel
It feels wrong tbh
To run single target on a fight like that
But at least you can be recognized for shield damage if your guild looks at that
limber lion
Come up for 2nd shield if used on pull
Yeh I honestly can't remember. It's been 6 weeks or so since I saw the fight.
hollow escarp
I never progged it
limber lion
Safe bet is to just blast Shade when he spawns
hollow escarp
just got the kill with my guild this week
I checked a few top logs, most pop on the first guy
and then on shades
rapid laurel
Depending on the heal push it can be a good or bad idea
If heal push is fast you don’t have it up
hollow escarp
yeah, we had a crazy push and then we didn't had dps cooldowns for 2nd shade a few times
rapid laurel
So that’s something to keep in mind
limber lion
I checked a few top logs, most pop on the first guy
I got my r1 6 weeks ago by just blasting the shade the second it spawned.
Triple-garrote on shade + phoenix'
And full blast
But I wasn't on shield-duty so it's pretty unfair comparison
hollow escarp
that's how I got a 95 on HC, didn't pop ads but blasted the boss
rank 135 
based on the new people in this chat, I really wonder why nobody is playing the spec yet
tropic charm
This might be in pins/answered, but with Flagellation do we use it off CD or save it to use for vendetta/vanish?
hollow escarp
this chat was so active since the 9.0.5 news
rapid laurel
I think it’s a lot of people who switched to another class when assa got the horrid treatment it did
I didn’t plan on playing assa until like 9.1 but this change was glorious and I like the game now
hollow escarp
This might be in pins/answered, but with Flagellation do we use it off CD or sav...
on CD, only hold if it's the last cast of the fight so you get to get it with vendetta
rapid laurel
Shadow priest is so depressing to play
tropic charm
on CD, only hold if it's the last cast of the fight so you get to get it with ve...
Tyty
hollow escarp
our dk rerolled shadow priest
balmy condor
Should honestly put it in pins
hollow escarp
balmy condor
That we press flag on cd
hollow escarp
or command
stoic needle
yes please
tropic charm
It's probably been asked and I was scrolling for like 5 mins and couldn't find it, and guides brush past it
stoic needle
99% of people asking wont know how to hold it properly tbh
its asked like a dozen times a day
hollow escarp
It's probably been asked and I was scrolling for like 5 mins and couldn't find i...
dw about it 
I don't even think you lose that much dps even if you press it on CD always
and don't care about last cast thing
stoic needle
its like a .5% gain to sync
indigo mulch
Your only supposed to line them up if you know you can't get another one in before the fight ends i belive.
nocturne hawk
Shame discord doesn't have a pretty good search function 
stoic needle
balmy condor
balmy condor
you know what's more fun than crit?
Not crit?
nocturne hawk
Hopefully they'll let us scrap eventually and get some soul ash back
stoic needle
counterpoint: we have a talent that's like 60% as good as the legendary
nocturne hawk
lol true
stoic needle
i've only missed 1 wing of torghast since xpac launch
hollow escarp
it's good to do it every week
indigo mulch
I already have doomieboy, i cant decide for MA or Zoldycks though ;c
pastel osprey
what is torghast? 
stoic needle
definitely zoldyck
hollow escarp
I missed 1 entire week but I still have 5 legendaries
nocturne hawk
Still... I have a 235 celerity wasting bag space
indigo mulch
I mean mythic sire prog is coming soonish ;-; but i do a lot of m+ 😐
stoic needle
if you're committed to being a sin one trick
nocturne hawk
hollow escarp
Celerity isn't wasted bag space
stoic needle
i mean zoldyck is basically bis for m+
balmy condor
counterpoint: we have a talent that's like 60% as good as the legendary
37.5% as good
stoic needle
limber lion
37.5% as good
nocturne hawk
It is when I never click the activate button on law since the 8% aura we got 
stoic needle
how is that calculation done
indigo mulch
Are you sure? If not, the pitchfork is waiting for you @balmy condor
balmy condor
3/4 is 75%
50% is half of 100%
Half of 75% is 37.5%
indigo mulch
Fine. You may live.
stoic needle
ok true
frigid kestrel
I do Torg every week, but wasted ash on -
R2 Celerity
R1 MA
R4 Akkari
vapid valve
So assassination beats outlaw single target ez? Worth crafting Doomblade for the single target raid bosses? Coming from an outlaw main.
stoic needle
Akaaris 
frigid kestrel
Only really used my R4 Finality
stoic needle
So assassination beats outlaw single target ez? Worth crafting Doomblade for the...
ez
frigid kestrel
Akaaris <a:omegalul:585570400952385544>
I no spell well
stoic needle
no i'm laughing at the legendary not the spelling
stoic needle
i've got 210 celerity, 210 ma, 235 doom 235 zold
frigid kestrel
Wasted ash
stoic needle
and 4k ash in the bank
hollow escarp
whenever I sell a leather helm legendary base, I check armory to see if it's a rogue buying 
@stoic needle
stoic needle
not sure what to check
stoic needle
idk what to craft next tbh
frigid kestrel
Now I’m stuck with a R2 Zold and R2 Doom
indigo mulch
Zoldyck it is.
stoic needle
you won't regret it
indigo mulch
I mean after SLG its sire mythic time 😭
hollow escarp
don't have anything to craft next, I might upgrade my 210 and 225s
except Finality
frigid kestrel
I’m thinking of ranking up my Zold and Doom together
indigo mulch
Doom first. Cuz doom coolz
hollow escarp
the dps increase is not that big on r3 to r4
frigid kestrel
Since I run keys and prog
hollow escarp
but it feels good to have it maxxed
stoic needle
it definitely does feel good to have the 2 best sin legendaries maxxed
being a one trick pays off if blizzard loves your spec
nocturne hawk
Was saving to upgrade MA for pvp, but then dooooooooooom happened
hollow escarp
if I didn't craft MA for my last KSM key, I would have had both Zoldyck and Doomblade rank 4
stoic needle
i think MA might be the next 235 i make
because it's good for outlaw for the only situations i'd use it, slg and keys
indigo mulch
Isent MA pretty good on sludgeboi though
stoic needle
i think doomblade is better
nocturne hawk
Its so banger as sub pvp
indigo mulch
Is it though? D:
pastel osprey
ma on slg ?
indigo mulch
y
stoic needle
outlaw on slg
hollow escarp
MA did help me to farm some honor as sub today
stoic needle
playing sin on slg is basically inting
pastel osprey
i know, but why ma on slg ?!
stoic needle
because it's better than celerity for AOE and that's the reason why you play law on slg?
pastel osprey
still cel. better on slg
pastel osprey
what do u need the brust for ?
stoic needle
for killing the adds?
pastel osprey
no one plays MA slg tbh
stoic needle
i dont particularly care about being 100% optimal when i play law just yet
ma is good enough
and MA is decent for sin in keys and i want to play around with that
and it's good for pvp
pastel osprey
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/26#class=Rogue&spec=Outlaw&boss=2417
i mean 3% of the rogues played it
stoic needle
yeah it is lmao
pastel osprey
wouldnt zol. + ct be better ?
stoic needle
highly doubt that sin with zoldyck would be better than outlaw with MA on slg
indigo mulch
i would prob use blindside, subt, ds and CT on SLG.
limber lion
The thing is, Sin has the highest 2-target execute in the game so it pumps like a motherfucker in P3
stoic needle
yeah
limber lion
But
indigo mulch
with doomblade
limber lion
P3 is the easy shit
You need a lot of insta-aoe damage
Burst damage
Which Assa doesn't really have
hollow escarp
flagellation though
stoic needle
sounds like outlaw with ma 
limber lion
A lot of guilds kill SLG on their first or second pull when they get to P3
Because it's just copypasta
But getting to P3 is the tricky part
pastel osprey
getting their is the problem ^^
stoic needle
MA+KS+Dreadblades+flag on slg 
pastel osprey
there*
stoic needle
talk about burst
void urchin
in mythic keys using MA leggo, do i still open with garrote ?
balmy condor
It's not a fun fight for sure.
You’re gonna have fun and you’re gonna like it
indigo mulch
:X
hollow escarp
would doomblade be better then in that case
zoldyck most likely, but MA is good in M+ on all specs
stoic needle
would doomblade be better then in that case
only in certain dungeons, zoldyck is a good alternative
void urchin
ah ok, I thought it would be a waste on the 4 sec of MA if Im just using garrote
limber lion
You’re gonna have fun and you’re gonna like it
I'll try my best :c
hollow escarp
are you on Sire now Cev?
indigo mulch
where you @ now Ceverion? D:
stoic needle
it's not a waste. your autos and garottes and poisons are critting
limber lion
are you on Sire now Cev?
Not yet. Hoping to see P3 (maybe kill) on Monday
indigo mulch
we're still hardstuck on sludgeboi 😭
void urchin
ty
indigo mulch
Moving is hard!
nocturne hawk
I was trying to figure out that too, then I was like oh.... autos and poisons 
void urchin
that makes sense
stoic needle
man
this trial lasted like
45 mins
cuz pugs just kept leaving they called it
my weekly mythic lockout wasted on 4 pulls of sks 
balmy condor
my weekly mythic lockout wasted on 4 pulls of sks <a:WeirdLoop:65016748162482176...
You trialed a guild that couldn’t fill a raid?
stoic needle
dude i didn't know they couldn't fill the raid
limber lion
that's how rogues get raid spots Whispyr
The best way to get a raid spot is to play Rogue when it's OP because eventually that's gonna happen
Then apply to as many guilds as you can
indigo mulch
Nono, i joined a guild. Did just fine was doing good dps etc
hollow escarp
limber lion
Then get a safe raiding spot in the guild and then be there for the eternity to come
indigo mulch
2 weeks later they asked me if i could play WW instead
limber lion
:^)
indigo mulch
rip
stoic needle
will oshosi ever get a raid spot? find out next week!
azure fox
for Huntsman, we're supposed to keep garrote and rupture up on the dog and Altimore right??
hollow escarp
I was told I was gonna sit on bench o few days but we had people getting burned out so I got a spot in my first trial night
limber lion
for Huntsman, we're supposed to keep garrote and rupture up on the dog and Altim...
¨Yes
And CT if you run that.
peak sandal
did we ever figure out if we are using flag with vendetta or on cd?
limber lion
Had to delete that emoji, I'm done with em
stoic needle
ep subt ds ct
limber lion
is the new 🙂
hollow escarp
limber lion
did we ever figure out if we are using flag with vendetta or on cd?
Yeh just use on CD, you can sync if you don't miss a cast, but safer to just cast on CD.
hollow escarp
The best way to get a raid spot is to play Rogue when it's OP because eventually...
I kinda did that in Antorus, but guild died in Uldir and I kinda quit raiding for the rest of the expac
limber lion
I kinda did that in Antorus, but guild died in Uldir and I kinda quit raiding fo...
Ripperino
indigo mulch
I loved uldir ;-;
the 250+ wipes on fetid pre-nerfs is something i didnt enjoy though
hollow escarp
the climb begins again 
peak sandal
replace rogue with ww and its even more true
hollow escarp
at least monk has a raid buff
indigo mulch
That's something i dont understand, why does rogue not bring anything to the raid in term of a raid buff? I mean rogues have always been in the middle of the pack in term of damage.
hollow escarp
because we shroud at pull
indigo mulch
If someone should get the physical debuff it should be rogue
not bloody monks
lol
Pretty sure the physical debuff was once rogue only through hemo or some shit like that
hollow escarp
rogue raid buff = one more loot piece from the boss 
go all in on the outlaw meta
smuggler baby
stoic needle
i wish that killing a boss was what saved you to a mythic instance, not just entering one
it sucks to only be able to trial for one guild a week in mythic
hollow escarp
ngl, but if the guild is filling with pugs, it's not a good place to be in
indigo mulch
lol
Very true.
I just hope our raid roaster lasts until sire. so i can go slack in FFXIV
hollow escarp
I stayed 1 month in a guild that couldn't kill Hungering Devourer because we didn't had raiders
dense narwhal
Wow dashing scoundrel is pretty close now
peak sandal
dashing has always simmed high iirc
balmy condor
Indeed it has
stoic needle
those were dark times
limber lion
I'm glad they actually took time to fix many of the bugs we were having
stoic needle
same
limber lion
I'm actually surprised
stoic needle
i was expecting them to just stay there the whole expac
i mean when warlock bugs get hotfixed and rogue bugs don't even get acknowledged it doesn't set a good precedent
limber lion
They def had someone read our github