because raid leaders at the lower ce level don't have the knowlage how specs work even if you explain it
#assassination
vestal wren
fleet whale
there has only been a handful of times in the games history where sub was strong in raiding
fleet anchor
tbh i don't think blizz really sees
subrogue as a raiding spec
vestal wren
i think people lable subtlety to much as a pvp only spec
when assassination was played by 90%+ of they players throughout the entirety of bfa pvp
fleet anchor
But kinda hard to say, I think the specs have waffled a lot
vestal wren
sub even got a 5% buff in pvp only to get played
i agree, but we still have a lot of assumptions or expectations because of how things did work out in the past
limber lion
I hated getting a rank 1 log on Eonar because I proc'd Poison Bomb 3 times in a row on the Felhounds.
Like I legit did nothing
What a great feeling
vestal wren
e.g. throughout the entirety of legion people did argue that assassination needs to be tuned way higher than any other rogue spec on pure st
frozen karma
because raid leaders at the lower ce level don't have the knowlage how specs wor...
So true, I've been told to stop aoe as outlaw and focus more on single on some fights 
vestal wren
that was mainly due to how agonizing poison defined a very specific view on things
limber lion
I think the gameplay is much more rewarding currently, and you are not as reliant on random procs. Somehow Blizzard still seems to fuck that up and they come up with new Infinite Stars/Twilight Dev/Poison Bomb shenanigans.
vestal wren
in the same sense that rogue was always brought for soaking and similar
when we rarely have this happen in modern raids now
limber lion
But yeah, Rogue doesn't even have that immunity-niche anymore because pretty much every class now has an immunity.
vestal wren
rogue can have it
but it highly depends on what blizz allow us to do and how they design encounters
for this raid, a lot of stuff is physical damage/bleeds that don't work well with cos
limber lion
Yeah that's true.
We're also missing a raid utility buff/defensive which reduces our value even further. If we don't pull competitive numbers, there's no reason to bring us.
vestal wren
i don't think that rogue has per se a bad design
but if the design approach is focused on rogue bringing only damage it should be reflected in tuning
fleet anchor
Poison Bomb was pretty messed up in Antorus yes
We did give that feedback a lot, so at least it eventually got redesigned
fleet anchor
I mean on average it really isn't worse than it was in Antorus
frozen karma
Seems a bit stronger than in bfa tho
spice spire
It does 2% of ST 
fleet anchor
It just can't be broken anymore lol
limber lion
We did give that feedback a lot, so at least it eventually got redesigned
Yeah. I was honestly pretty bummed when it was reintroduced in BFA. I just wanted to see it gone. But I'm glad that it's not a make it or break it kind of talent.
subtle tundra
wasnt m+ assa dmg just poison bomb procs luck in legion?
subtle tundra
the "fun" gameplay
vestal wren
bfa assassination m+ damage was also only Echoing
balmy condor
bfa assassination m+ damage was also only Echoing
Shrouded?
subtle tundra
actually it was more SS
vestal wren
na
subtle tundra
initial 3 garrotes doing 30% of your overall
balmy condor
frozen karma
In bfa it did 1.75% of my dmg in st, feels so wrong for a last tier talent, at least CT became decent with like 40%+ haste lol
spice spire
vestal wren
ss was good because it did give slightly higher value to your base maintainance
but if you pulled bigger groups
you essentially started to just maintain the minimal required bleeds to spam fok
what was iirc 3 bleeds
balmy condor
Sure but over the course of a dungeon those garrotes were huge
subtle tundra
i feel like those "big" pulls only became meta in late 8.2 and 8.3
vestal wren
if you think about it, its quite interessting that 3 or 4 bleeds already made energy management obsolete
subtle tundra
in pugs, i mean
vestal wren
and that even without corruption
(tho with lucid and a decent amount of critial strike)
limber lion
M+ was eventually just pulling 8 packs at once and either having your Fire Mage demolish the packs or hope that the tank proc'd his Twilight Dev 15 on them
subtle tundra
we cant just say only about 8.3
vestal wren
corruption was very ... interessting
subtle tundra
that was kind of an exception to the norm
vestal wren
i think there are 2 sides to corruption
limber lion
I honestly think that the flat stat increases were a great addition, especially when the shop was introduced.
vestal wren
some did love it and will say its the best thing that ever happened
others will say it was stupid and should never happened
frozen karma
I enjoyed corruption cuz it made me experiment so many sin builds in 8.3
limber lion
But the random procs were just really awful design
lean fossil
did the ma talent get buffed? its all of a sudden simming a lot higher for me than it used to compared to subt
subtle tundra
well for me after prog ended i stopped playing and only played a bit at the end my hunter
vendor came too late to keep me playing
limber lion
The worst part about corruption was when we lost it in SL Pre-patch
vestal wren
for me, i think energy management is core of the assassination gameplay
making energy irrelevant does seem like nothing you should approach gameplay wise
frozen karma
Regular MA build, VOP huge poison dmg with nothing personal and finally just expedient to the max
balmy condor
did the ma talent get buffed? its all of a sudden simming a lot higher for me t...
Apl changes made it better
vestal wren
you can thank koji
lean fossil
that went live today?
balmy condor
Yes
vestal wren
he did spend a lot of time recently optimizing the sin apl
limber lion
for me, i think energy management is core of the assassination gameplay
making e...
But is energy management honestly core of assassination gameplay? There's always talk about pooling and not pooling and it usually comes to about the same results.
vestal wren
i tried to optimize for subtlety but 😢 couldn't find a win with my quick tests
limber lion
It seems that just pushing buttons whenever you can gives similar results to actually trying to be "smart" about your energy usage.
vestal wren
energy and combo points are the base 2 designs of rogue
i would say that anything that just removes one of those is not good gameplay wise
e.g. i think its fine to have energy not relevant for a specific timeframe
but having it not relevant for the entirety of the fight seems not good
it just means you become a gcd capped spec and that the design becomes more towards a dh or warrior
tribal marlin
basically the idea of the APL is to use Envenom at high amount of energy outside of Shiv/Vendetta windows because it's what give best results in sims.
But in real situation encounter you need to make sure you are leaving melee range with as little energy as possible
so you kinda break that rule often
arctic cloud
Probably asked a million times but I tend to lurk round here. I’d be stupid to make doom blade this early on wouldn’t in preparation
I in* (on my phone sorry)
vestal wren
doomblade looks fairly potent
it atm looks like its between dashing and doomblade on pure st (both are very close in output)
stoic needle
Currently doomblade is bugged and the dot which is a fairly major part of the damage profile is bugged and is being reduced by armor 2x
vestal wren
for the next tier, esp. early on zoldy will possibly become relevant
stoic needle
If that isn't fixed, dashing will be better. If it is, doomblade will be slightly better
arctic cloud
Okay decent thanks, I’ve already been the hero that’s swapped to venthyr hoping that they’ve fixed this god awful Covenant
vestal wren
venthyr also looks atm suprisingly good
limber lion
Patch 9.0.5 can't come sooner.
arctic cloud
Flag right now is awful I don’t even use it
vestal wren
not sure if we see another round of changes or if the ptr cycle is finished balance wise
focus could always be on bugfixes
flag on ptr removes a lot of the problems of current flag
i don't think a rework was needed but they would need to add a auto-triggering on debuff expire
odd heath
vault wasnt that bad today
stoic needle
Nice
iron orchid
focus could always be on bugfixes
Let's just hope they don't leave the exsang SBS thing on live
stoic needle
Part of me hopes that they do
vestal wren
i mean
iron orchid
Don't wanna grind renown just to get nerfed right after
stoic needle
I just think it's absolutely wild that after it not working that way for a long time it suddenly does
iron orchid
and regrind to go venthyr
vestal wren
so far there are 2 things that very likely get fixed (if they haven't already)
balmy condor
Currently doomblade is bugged and the dot which is a fairly major part of the da...
I wouldn’t say that its reducing 2x
vestal wren
#1 esang working on sbs
#2 bloodfang value typo
iron orchid
And even if they don't nerf it, don't wanna be riding those ugly flies in 9.1
balmy condor
The dot is affected by armor, which it shouldn’t be, and that’s it
stoic needle
Well the initial mutilate is also affected by armor
So in that sense it's being affected by armor twice
balmy condor
Yes and that’s intended because it’s a physical ability
That has no bearing on doomblade being bugged
signal gulch
is deeper stratagem suppose to sim higher than vigor for me
tribal marlin
unless DS sims significantly higher (like it can be the case for Venthyr in 9.0.5) I won't play DS
signal gulch
yeah its only 18dps higher but i just wasnt expecting it
tribal marlin
but in case both talent are close by like 0.5% margin, it's probably a bait going for DS
celest ruin
how big is the doomblade bug?
celest ruin
i mean how much dps are you roughly losing because of the armor bug, is it big like 100+ or something like below 50
celest ruin
rip i just crafted a 235 
gloomy knoll
why would u craft anything
based off ptr lmao
it's go change 20 times
before it go's live
celest ruin
im using it for pvp too
gloomy knoll
they could buff something random the very week before it pushes to live
dawn breach
Would Zoldyck be a good starte leggo to go for, if I want to dabble with assassination from time to time?
frank sail
So... with NF being the current strongest for ST, but the changes to Flagellation / Lashing Scars, are we likely to see a covenant change? as this will create a 12 sec burst window into 12 seconds haste buff
balmy condor
how big is the doomblade bug?
Bout 75 dps
celest ruin
Bout 75 dps
thats quite a bit, is it fixed in the ptr?
balmy condor
No
tribal marlin
I'm confident it will be fixed before patch release
made multiple report about it on PTR
stoic needle
I'm gonna report it too
faint harness
i reported bloodfang being a shit legendary
or i wrote This should be able to crit
stoic needle
Did you report sub being a shit spec too 
tribal marlin
I told theim to make so that Zoldyck work on Envenom
just like Dashing work on env
stoic needle
It's mind boggling sub isn't getting any buffs
faint harness
I bug reported the sec tech alacrity thing
stoic needle
If zold worked on envenom it would be unbelievably poggers
vast pond
So the PTR sim doesn't include the DB bug?
faint harness
and then said its insane that the spec is getting so little attention and that secret technique feels like an afterthought
fleet anchor
Not yet no, it will tomorrow
fleet whale
i mean it is a secret
vast pond
Getting close to 6500 😛
fleet anchor
But I mean, I wouldn't say anyone is getting "baited" by a PTR sim. I'm pretty sure all the TCers in all the channels have said "don't craft shit until it goes live unless you're capping and have to" lol
tribal marlin
If zold worked on envenom it would be unbelievably poggers
yes that would bring the Leggo very high but aside from the "leggo rank list" i'm mostly looking at our position in the melee meta.
faint harness
only zoldyck crafts was baited
stoic needle
I don't think so
safe barn
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oknA4de4kYiJALk13mYVxK
wait what
stoic needle
Execute will always be valuable
stoic needle
And it's still arguably the best aoe legendary
tribal marlin
Yes we need to have a strong niche and it should be that execute.
stoic needle
In bis gear sin beats outlaw on st but not in aoe or cleave
faint harness
i think duskwalker can fill the same niche
safe barn
In bis gear sin beats outlaw on st but not in aoe or cleave
I FEEL CHEATED
fleet anchor
But it's definitely worth having Zoldyck just in case
tribal marlin
Yes we sim high on PTR, nice yet Feral has been the over tune since the begining of the expansion and never brought in progression
stoic needle
I FEEL CHEATED
Cheated by what
solar flicker
I crafted r3 zoldyck today 
celest ruin
just tell em youre a boomy playing feral affinity
stoic needle
Oh boo hoo, you have the 2nd best legendary
solar flicker
only want it to kill sire so im not really that baited
fleet anchor
Even with Assassination numbers how they are
stoic needle
How will you cope
fleet anchor
I still fully expect to be swapping between Assassination and Outlaw next tier
stoic needle
You people need to chill. It's not like zoldyck is tiny toxic blade
safe barn
i just want a fully functional spec
stoic needle
Or maw rattle
tribal marlin
Even with Assassination numbers how they are
... I still fully expect playing Unhol;y next tier ....
fixed*
fleet whale
frost actually sims higher than unholy now
fleet anchor
I mean I'm not gonna reroll haha
stoic needle
i don't have the time to fully gear 2 of them
Outlaw and sin use the same gear though besides weapons
fleet anchor
I played an entire xpac as Feral, I'm no FotMer 😛
tribal marlin
frost actually sims higher than unholy now
nobody's going to play frost
faint harness
never say never
subtle kiln
... I still fully expect playing Unhol;y next tier ....
nope
stoic needle
Why wouldn't they play frost
tribal marlin
or maybe I'll be wrong, but it's kinda same debate Sub vs Assa
faint harness
no its not
faint harness
and sub vs assa is actually a dumb debate
fleet whale
is easier to play than unholy
celest ruin
breath build is so annoying to play
subtle kiln
UH is easier. your fucking pet does 50% of the dmg with very little downtime impact
tribal marlin
But you have the choice to be that melee guy that full greed on every mechanics or he can't do proper dps and only peak at 70% of his simdps because of mechanics
OR you can play unholy
fleet whale
idk, most dks were frost in NYA
tribal marlin
have the ability to spec such that you can legit both spend runes and PR at 30y range
subtle kiln
because you didn’t have pet scaling the way it does now
tribal marlin
have your pets doing damage while moving etc...
fleet whale
and by and large it was more popular in legion
fleet whale
honestly i haven't really played dks in a while, but it's hilarious if unholy is considered the easier spec now
when frost is mostly just pressing what button glows
celest ruin
i just wish we had something like amz so we can not feel guilty showing up for prog
safe barn
honestly i haven't really played dks in a while, but it's hilarious if unholy is...
its not about the rotation
stoic needle
i just wish we had something like amz so we can not feel guilty showing up for p...
I don't feel guilty
I do big boss dam
tribal marlin
but it has a damage pattern which is more desirable.
subtle kiln
UH is a no brian spec as well with pet making up for half you dmg and having not to worry about screwing up a 2 min cd
it’s wow. nothing is brain surgery
stoic needle
It's not my problem zoomers think you need to carbon copy wfr raid comps just to clear content they're overgeared for now
tribal marlin
But yeah UH or Frost isn't really the question, the question is about Rogue having no valuable raid utility.
You gotta a be insanely over tuned compared to other melee to be brought into progression VS melee that brings raids buffs and raid cooldowns.
subtle kiln
or just wait for amz to be put on global raid cool down
tribal marlin
OR the raid can be so that rogue proove extremely good
like tons of nasty long duration dots
stuff like this
fleet whale
bring back smoke bomb
subtle kiln
they just renamed it darkness
tribal marlin
soak that apply nasty dots that you can cloak etc...
subtle kiln
it’ll be back next tier as havoc returns
tribal marlin
Or maybe they will design raid encounter such that you want to have more melees than ranged
celest ruin
make cheat death have no cd
tribal marlin
then you might bring a few DK, and utility class and then stack rogue xD
Or just buff Zoldyck
fleet whale
i just don't get why blizz has a pure melee dps class that brings pretty much no raid utility, and just mediocre dps
tribal marlin
like make it work on Envenom and Sepsis
fleet whale
and somehow think that is ok
stoic needle
Just give all rogue specs another 20% and call it a day imo
toxic tusk
223 Bottleflayed Toxin or whatever it's called from the vault! That's exciting
subtle kiln
Just give all rogue specs another 20% and call it a day imo
that’ll work out well in m+
stoic needle
that’ll work out well in m+
We'll still be worse than boomkins and fire mages
stoic needle
toxic tusk
Did I read our slice n dice is going to go back to beinjg refreshed with envenom?
fleet whale
especially outlaw in M+
stoic needle
You say that like it's a bad thing
fleet whale
would rather blizz actually fix our garbage talent trees
rather than just slapping aura buffs
stoic needle
Honestly I don't think blizzard is capable of that anymore
toxic tusk
I'll be honest I never keep up on patch informations. I need to start.
fleet whale
and yes envenom extends the duration of snd next patch
so you basically only need to use it once
toxic tusk
as it should.
stoic needle
Like let's be real
Blizzard has no fucking clue what to do with rogues
They gave us the un-pruning
fleet anchor
make cheat death have no cd <:kekw:610125925413289985>
I would accept them making Cheat Death actually work properly again 🙂
toxic tusk
They don't.
stoic needle
Instead of splitting it into two abilities
toxic tusk
how'd they make shiv worse?
stoic needle
It's a utility and dps cooldown at the same time now for sin
So you have to choose between doing optimal dps and having utility
toxic tusk
Oh, yeah, fair.
fleet whale
bro all of our defensives get weaker and weaker each patch
even if it isn't in the notes, they all get weaker
feint working on less shit
stoic needle
I get yelled at in m+ for not soothing and then get yelled at for not doing enough damage
Like ????
celest ruin
get the count the odds conduit, pray for TB proc every ambush and use duskwalker legendary for 100% vendetta uptime
toxic tusk
We can all get together and make roving bands of rogues.
and just take over towns in protest.
stoic needle
like they literally just don't know what to do
fleet anchor
I mean it's funny though
When Feint does work, it's pretty godlike. It's just inconsistent.
faint harness
Cheat Death is bugged to all hell atm
is it actually? i know someone talked about it in the pvp channel a few weeks ago
faint harness
ye but it doesnt even work
celest ruin
remember when cheat death was 2 min cd
faint harness
the ability that brought you to death still does full dmg and doesnt put you at 7% hp
fleet whale
f*cking desperate instincts the talent that havoc dh's have
is better than cheat death in pvp lol
and that's sad
toxic tusk
I'd kill a small animal if cloak had a chance at a free vanish.
fast nacelle
@fleet anchor does feint work on blades?
echo cargo
Jesus lmao
fleet anchor
Yes
fast nacelle
fleet anchor
The blade is an AoE hit
fleet whale
cauterize is a better cheat death
toxic tusk
unicorns aren't small don't freak out.
fleet anchor
The soak is AoE, the stun is AoE, the knockbacks are AoE, etc.
Almost everything is flagged as AoE in SLG lol
tribal marlin
you can even cloak the crystalyze initial damage, you'll get your bleed remove but won't be stun nor taking any damage
fast nacelle
its so weird - targeted spells like blade are considered aoe hits
however aoe hits like the aoe on nzoth is considered single target and can only be reduces by elusivness
pretty inconsistent
fleet anchor
Two problems with Cheat Death.. One bigger than the other. One is that they lowered the max HP threshold on cheats significantly, and lots of stuff just straight kills you through Cheat nowadays.
faint harness
blood price also not counted as aoe, despite you taking dmg from ppl around you having the same stack
fleet anchor
The other problem is that there's some form of damage batching going on atm
And if you take killing damage too close to another damage source, even afterwards
You won't get the DR on it
faint harness
thats what happened in pvp
fleet anchor
And you'll just die
fleet anchor
Yeah it happens all the time nowadays
it's why Cheat is totally pointless on a bunch of fights
faint harness
so the answer is to never pick it
fleet anchor
Because you get multi-hit so much now
stoic needle
And people memed on me when I said that elusiveness was better 
faint harness
problem is the passive heal is kinda whatever, elusiveness is a dps loss
fleet anchor
Elusiveness + Energy cost reduction Conduit is probably the best play atm
fleet whale
i remember the glyph that gave cloak of shadows a physical damage reduction lol
stoic needle
Wtf happened to glyphs
fleet whale
i would use that sometimes with elusiveness in Siege of Orgrimmar, and soak mines on the Iron Jueggernaut fight
basically removed in legion
stoic needle
But why
fleet whale
because a lot of them, to be fair, were quite silly and obviously mandatory
like there was a glyph that reduced mut energy cost by 5
faint harness
why cant bloodfang crit, dogshit design. Rise up 🍴
fleet whale
obviously you are going to use that 24/7, and that takes up one of your slots
stoic needle
Why not just remove that glyph and make the effect baseline 
manic harness
Too big brain for blizz
fleet whale
they did that for a lot of things already
gentle gyro
i loved the glyph system
bleak sedge
Can i upgrade my legs zoldyck into a boots zoldyck?
gentle gyro
nope
fleet whale
mut was 60 energy before
stoic needle
Yeah I remember
gentle gyro
thing is, 5 energy less is a LOT
tribal marlin
I mean we are doing enough damage
gentle gyro
and blizz doesn't do non-multiplicatives of 5 for some reason
tribal marlin
or maybe we don't IDK but it won't solve the problem we have that make so that we're the only classe not brought into RWF
stoic needle
Eh I think we could stand to do some more dmg lol
tribal marlin
and I don't think overtuning the class is the solution
faint harness
if they buff sin even more, they would have to go nuts with sub
stoic needle
If we did really strong damage we would be brought
fleet whale
well if blizz wants to keep mut at 50 energy, the compromise i would take is garrote at 35 energy
stoic needle
if they buff sin even more, they would have to go nuts with sub
They need to buff rogue period
Full stop
fleet whale
and idk mystler on wowhead's post doesn't think any spec was really buffed that much
fleet whale
isn't that getting nerfed
manic harness
ww clobes
fleet whale
with it's fix
stoic needle
I don't get why doing higher than average damage is a niche that people are afraid of
manic harness
Yes, significantly nerfed
tribal marlin
with the WS fix I can bet that hunter will be pretty average as well
fleet whale
i'm fine with doing higher damage
tribal marlin
especially in ST
fleet whale
but if we don't do higher damage, we need utility
fleet whale
if we have neither, we suck
faint harness
Why can't that be the rogue thing
because blizzard cant do it
stoic needle
They aren't just gonna turn around and give us utility in the middle of the tier
gentle gyro
i mean it would make sense, we bring very little to the raid
faint harness
and i dont want to play a mage-style class where only 1 spec is relevant
gentle gyro
so just let us do the deeps
hollow escarp
Hunters are in same position with rogues. No raid utility besides immunity.
stoic needle
That's why I'm saying all rogues specs should be pumpers
faint harness
but they never do that
stoic needle
It's never been a just sin thing
faint harness
so idk
fleet whale
i mean realistically speaking, depending on your level of play
pures in general are one spec classes
tribal marlin
because having one class doing overtuned damage is bad for the perception of everyone, even tho it's fine in a "progression endgame" state of mind
stoic needle
What the fuck is mage and warlock then lmao
fleet anchor
Hunters are in same position with rogues. No raid utility besides immunity.
I mean, their raid utility is that they are mobile ranged. Which is more than we can say. 😛
faint harness
i would hate for rogue to turn into mage
gentle gyro
mage is a really bad example
cause for now, mage has only one spec
which is something you don't want
stoic needle
I mean frost is pumping
stoic needle
People just don't play it
faint harness
fire is just insane at everything
hollow escarp
I mean, their raid utility is that they are mobile ranged. Which is more than we...
Yeah, that still makes them a favorable pick if we did the same damage.
faint harness
more versatile
stoic needle
It just got a bunch of buffs like sin did
fleet anchor
Pretty much all 3 Mages specs are better than most melee specs in the game. lol
stoic needle
It's gonna see more play soon
fleet whale
arcane is pretty bad honestly
faint harness
yea but fire is still the infinity gauntlet
the survivability a fire mage has is fucking insane
hollow escarp
Look at Arcane on Sludgefist lol
gentle gyro
i'd prefer the approach that dps specs bring a unique niche to raid fights
manic harness
They have a better cheat death than we do lol
faint harness
they gave the tankiest dps spec in the game 2 more dmg reduction cds in SL
its mindboggling
gentle gyro
execute, utility, dealing with mechanics, mobility, whatever
stoic needle
i'd prefer the approach that dps specs bring a unique niche to raid fights
I don't believe 2021 blizzard is capable of acheiving that
celest ruin
give em some slack, they're a multi dollar company
fleet whale
most of the devs probably play mage
manic harness
Multiple billion lmao
oblique flare
alter time, mirror images, cauterize, shields, ice block
ranged dps players can't comprehend mechanics
gentle gyro
like idk, sin's niche could be execute, sub rogue burst (for high prio adds or sth) and outlaw aoe
oblique flare
cut both blizzard and ranged dps some slack guys
faint harness
imagine that mirror images is a 40 second DR that seemingly has weird interactions and doesnt even trigger on some direct dmg instances
like its fucking stupid
manic harness
Why doesn't fire have a niche?
distant cypress
Ww good at everything
gentle gyro
they bring utility and have their own niche
distant cypress
It still will be better than sin tho
gentle gyro
monks have their 5% dmg buff and high on demand cleave
fleet whale
my point isn't how strong ww is or how it is going to be
faint harness
It still will be better than sin tho
its already quite weak on st
yea it will beat sin on aoe
gentle gyro
like, with how many dps specs we have in the game there is going to be some overlap
faint harness
no shit
fleet whale
just that giving every spec a niche can be flawed in a game where hybrid classes exist
distant cypress
It will beat sin on st too
hollow escarp
Doubt
fleet whale
and yeah WW is falling in ST
faint harness
sin is atm simming as high as feral non owlweave
shut edge
Windwalker dont scale well ... sin can be. Patience guys, patience, our time will vome 🤣
gentle gyro
yes so they need to have different strengths, e.g. if ww brings more utility than rogue then rogue should deal more damage if that's his thing
faint harness
scale
hollow escarp
The clone bug was big for single target aswell
oblique flare
S C A L I NG
gentle gyro
we scale guys
manic harness
Don't say the s word lll
fleet whale
we scale with buffs
shut edge
Shit i did
distant cypress
S C A L I N G
hollow escarp
About that word
shut edge
SCHALING
gentle gyro
shut edge
I meant Shaling sorry
manic harness
fleet whale
so are any of you going vampire in the next patch?
hollow escarp
Could we get somebody to explain scaling and pin it in every channel?
gentle gyro
<------------
fleet whale
i like the opener and burst potential on flag
manic harness
I'm going vampy girl
gentle gyro
if there is even a chance vampire bois are better I will swap
manic harness
100%
faint harness
if there is even a chance vampire bois are better I will swap
big chance
hollow escarp
Gonna play the covenant inspired from my country
fleet whale
worst part will be trying to get lashing scars from a world boss
gentle gyro
i was joking about this a few days ago how my raidlead wouldnt let me come with my rogue cause I'm one of our main healers
stoic needle
I can't wait to go back home to my gargoyle gf Chelra 
gentle gyro
and now he said I can
stoic needle
faint harness
worst part will be trying to get lashing scars from a world boss
ve'nari
hollow escarp
I even have an NPC with my irl name in Revendreth lol
faint harness
im saving stygia for venari upgrades
fleet whale
yeah but doesn't it start at like 140 ilvl or some shit
fleet whale
i guess i can try that
hollow escarp
Tomorrow I'm getting my last 213
gentle gyro
worldboss drops it in 200
fleet whale
yeah the world boss starts at 200, but i don't think venari does
gentle gyro
and if you have all other conduits
faint harness
if you start saving stygia today you can afford it
hollow escarp
Venari starts at 145
fleet whale
but regardless if the conduit is that good
even like the 171 ilvl version of it might be worth
gentle gyro
just get it from the worldboss, upgrade it with venari, there
hollow escarp
I started buying upgrades when all my conduits were 200
shut edge
Why are you all tilting when some1 say the s word? 
faint harness
gentle gyro
it's a meme
fleet whale
oh that is nice
shut edge
it's a meme
Tellme
gentle gyro
there is nothing to tell, the scaling thing is a joke
don't worry guys we scale, it's totally fine we're trash tier
faint harness
its because scaling by secondary stats doesnt exist in the way people think
distant cypress
There is no such thing anymore as spec scalling
fleet whale
hasn't really existed since like mop really
gentle gyro
people say monk falls off a cliff and other specs scale
faint harness
even if you technically have better "scaling" of secondary stats, is so minimal that it wont make a difference
hollow escarp
I thought scaling meant that we get more stats every patch lol
distant cypress
fleet whale
well you do
gentle gyro
i mean we do, but so does every other spec
fleet whale
but it's your primary that is doing most of the work
tribal marlin
There are some interaction that make one or another stat better
tribal marlin
but there is no "scaling" like in Cataclysm where Subt get +15% agility
hollow escarp
But how do you call the thing that makes secondary stats better than mainstay?
Mainstat
fleet whale
secondaries in SL aren't even close to value to mainstait
hollow escarp
Fair
fleet whale
this isn't like bfa
limber lion
Should I do the swap to Venthyr today so I can still kill the world boss today to have a chance at Lashing Scars today and tomorrow? :^)
fleet whale
you can swap whenever you want
tribal marlin
it's not really scaling
faint harness
you hold until you got a release date
fleet whale
but i'm waiting for the patch,
manic harness
I'm swapping today so I can catch up in renown by the patch
tribal marlin
it's more like natural diminish return
hollow escarp
So it's probably language barrier
tribal marlin
just like in Diablo 3
manic harness
And get that sweet fucking title
faint harness
also you dont want to play fucking live flag, its a terrible spell
limber lion
Yeah that's been my logic as well. They just released the preamble and made the ptr the launch candidate, so surely it's not too far off.
manic harness
It's not that bad if you're not stupid
limber lion
Still got to grind renown 30 ugh
faint harness
clunky
manic harness
But it's not as mindless as Sepsis
fleet whale
Heart of the Forest for whatever reason makes my blower GPU rev up
manic harness
That's for sure
faint harness
and awful to play
manic harness
Yeag
fleet whale
so i'll be kind of glad to leave that place
hollow escarp
Well I hate sepsis with sub
faint harness
why
limber lion
I have 3 characters and they're all night fae. I've never even set foot in the other covenant sanctums.
fleet whale
flag will be significantly smoother to play in 9.0.5
distant cypress
Wut I love sepsis with sub
faint harness
sepsis is worse with assassination cus you dont even use the proc
distant cypress
What ya mean
hollow escarp
Because I go shadow dance like a noob and waste the free ss
fleet whale
current flag is just a shitty coral with a gcd
hollow escarp
Didn't happen lately though
fleet whale
AND it costs energy.... lol
distant cypress
Whispyr sup
manic harness
Whisper, we keep you around for your cute looks
balmy condor
whats guuuuuuuuuuud
faint harness
whispyr was a necrolord chad
manic harness
Not your big brain
balmy condor
3pm time to get out of bed
balmy condor
whispyr was a necrolord chad
gentle gyro
it's 11:48 pm, not 3
distant cypress
What an absolute unit
gentle gyro
timezones are a lie
hollow escarp
That's pretty neet
faint harness
timezones are indeed a lie
distant cypress
Imagine your whole work is answering same questions on rogue discord
faint harness
maybe night is when we should actually be awake
tribal marlin
When you have <1000 paragons and no augment you have like 10,000 intell such that 1000 intell on neck basically gives you 10% increase damage because it increase your damage multiplier from 100 to 110.
But when you have 20,000 intell because high paragons, these 1000 intel only increase your multiplier from 200 to 210 so that it worth only 5% damage.
Same things happened to main stat in BFA
fleet whale
new flag imo will be the most powerful rogue covenant ability when just comparing the abilities
hollow escarp
CET is the one true timezone
fleet whale
not the soulbinds etc
balmy condor
whispyr was a necrolord chad
I was actually one of the outspoken people that warned about emeni not being worth
never been necro in my life
and I'm glad that I'm not
fleet whale
i mean you have been though
faint harness
i agree with that take
fleet whale
when you leveled in SL
faint harness
emeni sounded good on paper
gentle gyro
the necro ability felt super bad when i first leveled
faint harness
but wasnt worth imo
manic harness
Current Flag is chunkier than the other abilities but it'll be diff in like 2 weeks anyway
gentle gyro
glad i never went there
distant cypress
Necro so bad lmao
limber lion
just give me the date reee
faint harness
heirmir is a good soulbind tho
hollow escarp
I liked necro the most while leveling
fleet whale
They just need to tweak draven a little bit for venthyr
faint harness
draven is a dead soulbind
gentle gyro
why would we want draven of all soulbinds
faint harness
horrible
gentle gyro
lol
fleet whale
it could be good if his first trait
stoic needle
I was necro at first but then switched to venthyr thinking it would be better
fleet whale
wasn't a defensive bomb thing
gentle gyro
his main ability is literally useless
stoic needle
It was not.
distant cypress
Night fae all the way
faint harness
i played necro as sub, thats actually sadistic
stoic needle
Same
distant cypress
Can't go wrong with blue mommy
hollow escarp
You played for prog though?
stoic needle
Bone spikes is unironically better than backstab though 
hollow escarp
Ahh
limber lion
Like, Blindside?
fleet whale
fills empty gcds for sin
faint harness
as sub, you have 2 options, apply this 100 dmg every 2 sec dot that gives 1-3 cp, OR you can do 900 dmg to 8 targets and get 6 cps
balmy condor
yea but bonespikes isnt even used in aoe
BUT IMAGINE THE CLEAVE FOR SUB POG SUB CAN CLEAVE GIGA DAMAGE HUGE GAINS SUB BEST CLEAVE SPEC IN THE GAME
hollow escarp
I like blindside, even believed in it in BfA until I convinced myself it was shit
faint harness
i mean its kind of a joke
limber lion
Yeah Blindside is great honestly.
balmy condor
imagine if our covenants had the impact of wild spirits or something
faint harness
they made all rogue covenants best for assassination
fleet whale
what about MA leggo, Nighstalker, new flag lashing scars build for sin?
balmy condor
sub cleave might actually be good
limber lion
I hate when we get new abilities because then I have to sort my keybinds again.
balmy condor
fleet whale
might lead to some big burst with vendetta
hollow escarp
imagine if our covenants had the impact of wild spirits or something
They would cancel rogues.
balmy condor
I hate when we get new abilities because then I have to sort my keybinds again.
blood of the enemy turned into covenant ability
faint harness
sbs has interactions with sin mastery, sepsis has interactions with shiv, flag gives sin its best stat in a huge amount
gentle gyro
I hate when we get new abilities because then I have to sort my keybinds again.
can you not just, you know, replace sepsis with lashing scars?
hollow escarp
Well assa is the default rogue spec
fleet whale
yeah all of my covenant abilities use the same button
hollow escarp
Or used to be
limber lion
can you not just, you know, replace sepsis with lashing scars?
Yes. I'm talking about Ambush, Slice and Dice, Soulshape etc.
stoic needle
imagine if our covenants had the impact of wild spirits or something
9.1 patch notes:
Rogue
• Has been removed from the game due to balance issues.
limber lion
Like actually new abilities that need to be bound
It's fine now that I've bound them. But I'm literally out of keybinds
balmy condor
oshosi removed
limber lion
If we get one more random ability, I'm fucked
stoic needle
@balmy condor
balmy condor
If we get one more random ability, I'm fucked
I had to learn how to use control, the horror
fleet whale
so whatever happened to that one rogue on here tmb?
balmy condor
oh tmb
hollow escarp
I dont have space for Exsanguinate in case it will be ever viable. In bfa it was same bind as toxic blade, now shiv holds that place.
balmy condor
the memories
stoic needle
Who?
balmy condor
hot take machine
fleet whale
he used to post a lot on here during SL beta and first few weeks of launch
then kind of disappeared
limber lion
I had to learn how to use control, the horror
Ah pls no, I only use control for potions and that's already pushing it
balmy condor
yeh
fleet whale
his takes were scorching
balmy condor
Ah pls no, I only use control for potions and that's already pushing it
I also suggest control spacebar and shift spacebar
fleet whale
he thought launch assassin would be taken for Mythic Sire while being necro
cause of dots an execute, lol
fleet whale
not with that tuning lol
balmy condor
i mean, I could see the logic
no you couldn't
limber lion
I also suggest control spacebar and shift spacebar
That reminds me... whenever you guys shadowstep, do you jump before using it or not?
Because I find myself ALWAYS jumping before Shadowstepping
Not sure why lmao
balmy condor
sin at the time was simming over 1000 lower than outlaw and sub
gentle gyro
why? a 30% execute for the hardest phase of a fight is worth way more than general dps
fleet whale
30% doesn't mean all that much when you are tuned too low
faint harness
is shit
balmy condor
why? a 30% execute for the hardest phase of a fight is worth way more than gener...
30% execute giving 300 dps when you're already 1000 behind isn't worth
faint harness
@stoic needle are you tmb
gentle gyro
if you're 1k dps behind then uh, no, go back to your corner
fleet whale
we are just starting to see sin rogues waking up from their slumber
faint harness
i actually dont see more sin players
balmy condor
I remember like week 2 of the expac, I was 180 and my hunter guildie was 170
tribal marlin
sin at the time was simming over 1000 lower than outlaw and sub
I made the sims back then, Assassination was behind Sub and Outlaw in execute range xD
hollow escarp
Assa was so bad that I leveled a dk up to 30 lol
balmy condor
a mile
limber lion
we are just starting to see sin rogues waking up from their slumber
It's a slow awakening for sure.
fleet whale
sin launch tuning was a disgrace lol
limber lion
I've seen maybe 1 or 2 assa's in pugs.
faint harness
outlaw is still the king of rogues
gentle gyro
it made me swap to outlaw for the first time in like 3 expansions
limber lion
I did the math one day and apparently there are 56 times as many boomkins in mythic raiding than there are assa rogues.
gentle gyro
and i progressed m nyalotha on sin
limber lion
So, that's fun.
stoic needle
<@!502859708504342538> are you tmb
Huh
hollow escarp
I swapped to sub for first 2 weeks then outlaw until the 2nd aura buff
fleet whale
tmb also really thought highly of Emeni lol
like she was gonna be some mandatory soulbind
faint harness
we can ask him
@grizzled jay do you still play the game
he did the full rodeo of rogue specs
limber lion
We need a bandwagon emote
tribal marlin
Well the fact is that the first rogue that have ever killed Sire was Necro probably to bring an additionnal emeni into the raid xD
faint harness
first he simped in the sub channel, then he simped in assa now he's outlaw
stoic needle
I went sub > outlaw > sin lol
fleet whale
hasn't posted in any rogue channel since december
limber lion
I never went Outlaw. I guess I like to suffer.
faint harness
same
celest ruin
WTS 235 finality and celerity
faint harness
cus fuck outlaw
hollow escarp
Outlaw is fun though
faint harness
nope
tribal marlin
outlaw is the coolest spec of all 3 gameplay wise
gentle gyro
wtb Kingsbane 
faint harness
outlaw is the coolest spec of all 3 gameplay wise
hard nope
stoic needle
I found outlaw to be boring 60% of the time, frustrating 30% of the time and fun 10% of the time
And the 10% was 5 buff
gentle gyro
outlaw is the coolest spec of all 3 gameplay wise
this is objectively wrong
faint harness
outlaw is trash
hollow escarp
don't you want to be a vampire pirate though?
Worgen vampire pirate to go full twilight
stoic needle
Outlaw is a confused fury warrior
tribal marlin
"cooolest thing" and "objectively" can't be paired 😄
balmy condor
outlaw is the coolest spec of all 3 gameplay wise
play outlaw then :)
stoic needle
With worse class fantasy
limber lion
And the 10% was 5 buff
Damn you sure proc'd 5 buffs many times :--D
balmy condor
play what makes you happy
tribal marlin
I do play outlaw
faint harness
"the most complete spec" 
fleet whale
calm down gues
hollow escarp
People just hate outlaw because it came at the price of Combat
toxic tusk
Survival hunter is a rogue with a spear.
faint harness
yea we summon him
hollow escarp
Oh no
manic harness
@sudden brook hi buddy
stoic needle
Even if it were the 4th rogue spec and we still had combat I'd think it's dumb
faint harness
he is reformed, its fine
stoic needle
The theme is just dumb
faint harness
<@96834520417828864> hi buddy
you brought doom to this channel
hollow escarp
I like meme specs 
sudden brook
why am i being summoned
hollow escarp
gentle gyro
whyyy do you caaall...
tribal marlin
imagine having a 5 buff during a mythic boss
and then realise that the 1st guy actually got 3
fleet whale
oh uh
hollow escarp
Alliance 
celest ruin
if you were in china server you would get 6 buffs
tribal marlin
Yeaaah you get 6 buff with cto
so everytime I get a 5 buff I yell "OHHH 5 BUFF"
and then I vanish and yell "OHHH 6 BUFFSSS"
stoic needle
Can the Chinese rng meme please die in 2021
hollow escarp
It's a meme?
fleet whale
why is outlaw so popular in china
stoic needle
fleet whale
do they need their gambling fix cause it's illegal? lol
celest ruin
have you heard of the alliance boosting article from wowhead
faint harness
big streamer likes outlaw in china
spice spire
No weapon this week. Mission failed we’ll get them next time 
hollow escarp
Speculations though
faint harness
he has big influence
tacit forum
Did you guys see the bone spike and exsanguinate bug on ptr?
tacit forum
😂
fleet whale
i mean by that logic shouldn't fury wars be extremely popular in the US?
hollow escarp
Because dual wielding?
fleet whale
nah, because of asmongold
hollow escarp
Ohh
celest ruin
if rogues had an asmongold who would it be
hollow escarp
Well, we have Pilav in EU 
toxic tusk
I’ve only ever seen a few videos, is he an asshat or is it a character?
fleet whale
Pika i guess
hollow escarp
Reckful
balmy condor
Did you guys see the bone spike and exsanguinate bug on ptr?
yes we have
hollow escarp
Pika has huge energy, good streamer material
fleet whale
dude i saw a vid of asmon when he was at blizzcon one time
dude needs to get some sun lol, he's unhealthily pale
limber lion
Same. Covid has turned me into a full degenerate
celest ruin
do you guys think blizzard purposefully made rogue bad so we can quit and get some sun
gentle gyro
hollow escarp
WFH + WoW go well together. I get paid to do my maw dailies
fleet whale
i mean there are many other factors that are causing people to quit wow
balmy condor
bruh my vault has a 226 ring with a socket and it's barely beating the sidegrade belt
fleet whale
than rogues being bad lol
gentle gyro
you couldn't pay me enough to do maw dailies
hollow escarp
Only gonna get 2 options tomorrow morning
hollow escarp
Did 2 dungeons 
and 4 bosses in raid
manic harness
6 buff joke
grizzled jay
he thought launch assassin would be taken for Mythic Sire while being necro
No I didn't
manic harness
Almost made me fall out of my chair at work lmao
hollow escarp
manic harness
God damn Chinese rng
grizzled jay
I said if Sin was ever going to be viable it'd be strictly on just that fight due to its damage profile.
But turns out the secret phase is hell for melee, which we didn't know at the time.
faint harness
did you drop your rogue
grizzled jay
I heal now.
faint harness
grizzled jay
Ancestors guide you
faint harness
i hope ur happy
tribal marlin
tribal marlin
imagine not even being first
fleet whale
I wonder how much they are paying for those buffs
wouldn't surprise me if Real money was being traded for PI lol
thorn plover
guessing self buffs don't count
tribal marlin
tmb reincarnate 
celest ruin
imagine having 100% pi uptime as well as priest nightfae and that echo of eonar legendary
fleet whale
do people use echo of eonar?
celest ruin
dont think anyone uses the rep legendaries
limber lion
https://gyazo.com/9ca71c5041e01d80ab44c271dbd5c11b
This dude is my hero
celest ruin
i saw some using the bastion one some time ago
tribal marlin
look how mad this guy is
https://i.imgur.com/6BMrXMP.png
vivid tulip
hi guys! Just a quick question: does anyone know if flayedwing toxin trinket interacts with shiv and zoydck? I have a choice between a 226 toxin and 226 indivisible ooze. The ooze sims about 15-20bp higher
grizzled jay
I'm also pretty sure that Emeni was the best dps to take as a Rogue the first week of Mythic but no one wanted to be Necro lol. NF was better personal dps so everyone flocked to it.
limber lion
hi guys! Just a quick question: does anyone know if flayedwing toxin trinket int...
Have you tried aoe sims? Just follow what your sim tells you to, no clue if they interact with it or not.
balmy condor
hi guys! Just a quick question: does anyone know if flayedwing toxin trinket int...
no.
trinkets do not interact with legendaries, nor shiv
as they are not rogue abilities
tame lake
two of the three items in my vault were gloves when I have doom crafted on gloves
stoic needle
The same thing happened to me after I crafted zold pants
stoic needle
hi guys! Just a quick question: does anyone know if flayedwing toxin trinket int...
Go for the ooze because you can't forget to activate it like you can with the toxin
vivid tulip
Aww, thanks guys. Would have been nice if blizz allowed trinkets to be affected by shiv/zodyck
stoic needle
Agreed but blizzard hates fun
vivid tulip
But who cares about flavour
hollow escarp
Sometimes I wish wow had mechanics and skill interactions like PoE
balmy condor
poe skill is questionable
stoic needle
It's really dumb that they don't
hollow escarp
I enjoy PoB more than PoE
limber lion
https://gyazo.com/187fc4673b7876c072117df59e470fd6
join the gang
hollow escarp
It's nice for sub 
limber lion
sowwy 
tribal marlin
Aww, thanks guys. Would have been nice if blizz allowed trinkets to be affected...
that was creating some major issue like the Umbral Moonglaive in legion
limber lion
but mastery = more damage with poisons/bleeds and assa does a lot of poison and bleed damage so it has to be good!!
limber lion
that was creating some major issue like the Umbral Moonglaive in legion
ugh I hated Umbral Moonglaive.
hollow escarp
Lower Kara with that trinket 
tribal marlin
was crazy
stoic needle
Absolutely disgusting
tribal marlin
it was amplified by every damage amp we had + 100% crit from MA
on big pulls it was like 85% of my damage
and 60%+ of the entier group overall dps
hollow escarp
I remember my guild giving that trinket to a hunter for the first time it dropped 
limber lion
Ok 
stoic needle
Imagine having 226 rings 
fleet anchor
I was forced to pick between that or a Grim Codex today lol
stoic needle
I'm still using a 207 ring 
tribal marlin
I remember my guild giving that trinket to a hunter for the first time it droppe...
Dude I had a crazy fact with that trinket
I was doing Mythic ToS every week in Antorus
for that trinket + set
hollow escarp
tribal marlin
and one day I did in heroic just for the lulz, and this stupid ret paladin get it 955 (which was maximum ilvl)
in HEROIC
hollow escarp
Lol
fleet anchor
tribal marlin
he just gave it to me
fleet anchor
🤣
fleet anchor
Titanforged Mythic Moonglaives still BiS even in Nyalotha 🤣
tribal marlin
nah 955 was max for ToS gear
tribal marlin
hahaha how much damage was it ?
fleet anchor
It actually wouldn't surprise me if Moonglaive was worth using now even on huge pulls
tribal marlin
oh it's on pre-patch
fleet anchor
It was like 4.5% of my damage on that pull lol
hollow escarp
Prepatch raiding was fun
fleet anchor
From 2 casts
tribal marlin
but you know I'm criting 30k+ with Sire's
fleet anchor
Most was just 1 cast tbh
tribal marlin
so gotta be some giga mob density
hollow escarp
Wtf
fleet anchor
🤣
There were some other kinda broken trinkets after the squish, it was a little funny
hollow escarp
I love gmicks like this
tribal marlin
nah I dumped it 😦
fleet anchor
RIP
I always keep funny old trinkets in my bank or void storage
Unless Blizzard disables them
hollow escarp
You can still get it now and it can titanforge
limber lion
hollow escarp
Or with the Argus vendor
limber lion
Our tank literally was our 7th highest dps in Hivemind
limber lion
Did more damage than me, any of the bms, more than the monk, more than any of the havoc dh's
that shit was craycray
hollow escarp
Good old bfa
limber lion
I always keep funny old trinkets in my bank or void storage
I actually simmed the Mirror of the Blademaster trinket and it simmed higher than any other trinket combination in Pre-patch