What is this teaser
#assassination
faint harness
balmy condor
I need to run on multiple profiles man
faint harness
I am shaking in my boots
balmy condor
faint harness
Really?
faint harness
How so
safe pendant
faint harness
I mean for some reason a 145 conduit seemed to double my lash dmg in logs, seems weird
surreal torrent
Wat
spice spire
surreal torrent
Impl is not related to any spec. I'm not abandoning anything. Also i have not shared any sims.
balmy condor
New Flag (Subject to change)
Profile - BS/MA/Vigor/Alac/PB and Zold:
balmy condor
Impl is not related to any spec. I'm not abandoning anything. Also i have not sh...
he's talking bout the pin in outlaw
faint harness
Impl is not related to any spec. I'm not abandoning anything. Also i have not sh...
Was not a very serious comment either way
faint harness
Someone else shared your sims
surreal torrent
Oh
spice spire
Wait until they see the downside of thrillseeker 
surreal torrent
I see the leaks are strong 😆
balmy condor
if thats with damage only and not the haste..
the ability works fine
it's the conduit
balmy condor
you would if it were giga
dark vigil
tru
so it seems not worth it then
because night fae is more consistent and you get access to korayn for m+
assuming the conduit isn't giga
balmy condor
I mean, sure
if that's your take
I agree that you don't need to swap if you're wanting to play keys and stuff with korayn
dark vigil
tru
balmy condor
which previously was gatekept by jank recasting and shit
tawny flicker
low girder
yeah if it's not better than that with the conduit then huge pog
i can stay fae and vamp bois are happy
faint harness
Venthyr actually not being trash means i can complete my covenant rodeo
balmy condor
I'm probably swapping cause my key group has no venthyr
faint harness
Only sub to go
In terms of sims
It has some funnel potential there
Which isnt a thing in the other 2 specs
faint harness
Nah
You still get max cp guaranteed, which is the big thing
Its not unethical
But still there
balmy condor
Only sub to go
yeah I'm just dropping an aoe sim (not dungeonslice, mystler mentioned dying targets needing a tweak, so we'll hold off on that) and then getting to sub
faint harness
Alrighty
surreal torrent
Wow, it's entertaining to see that a test of your sims has been pinned in outlaw and the top three rows cut out
faint harness
Wait what
surreal torrent
No idea what happened tbh
faint harness
balmy condor
Foreverguy not honest CF
faint harness
Someone who doesnt like angels?
balmy condor
faint harness
Jaysus
balmy condor
yo chill 
surreal torrent
Three NF rows above it, after that the screenshot matches my data exactly
faint harness
Oh its nf
surreal torrent
I'm in bed already, i can look into what's up with the conduit tomorrow and then probably share them for all specs
tribal marlin
why your numbers are 300 dps below ptr sims from oshoshi ?
stark heart
man flag is weird
faint harness
Do you have windfury enabled
balmy condor
but also osh simmed PTR sims before flag was even implemented
stark heart
I hope interns pick up on ability implementation
tribal marlin
wierd
300 is no little number
I'll wait a few more patches before digging into sims
balmy condor
I mean
faint harness
Oshosi posting dishonest sin propaganda? Would never
stoic needle
my sims were with night fae anyway
balmy condor
there was a commit yesterday to fix envenom bug in sims
so that's something as well
tribal marlin
Envenom bug has been found in sims ?
balmy condor
envenom was still pandemicing in sims
it does not in game
was about 10% envenom uptime
tribal marlin
so that's why Assa profile lost a truck of dps recently
stoic needle
Oshosi posting dishonest sin propaganda? Would never
i prefer "sin-friendly version of the truth" 
balmy condor
so that's why Assa profile lost a truck of dps recently
yes
tribal marlin
It could match the difference with oshoshi sims actually
seems to be like 200 dps in base T26 profile
tribal marlin
it's wierd
balmy condor
It could match the difference with oshoshi sims actually
yeah I had totem off in the pin
hold on I'll update it with totem
tribal marlin
that's not that which is wierd
rancid blaze
So is Doomblade going to be the best for single target?
balmy condor
New Flag (Subject to change)
Single Target Profile - Full buffs, BS/MA/Vigor/Alac/PB and Zold:
(Also check mystlers post here: <#tc-research message>)
balmy condor
that's not that which is wierd
well the niya profile on osh's sim is within 10 dps of mine
so I'm gonna say close enough
tribal marlin
I have trouble understanding how Doomblade can go from mostly equal to +3%
stoic needle
i like how everyone's first reaction to sin simming well is "MUST BE SUSPICIOUS SIMS"
tribal marlin
I runned Osho's sim without PTR = 1
stoic needle
it's t26 gear, mechagnome, with nia burrs WPS
drifting light
**New Flag (Subject to change)**
Single Target Profile - Full buffs, BS/MA/Vigor...
balmy condor
dashing benefits from ptr cause of the cttc change
but also got hit a little cause the bug fix
the doomblade without ptr doesn't have the buff
but idk
stone pilot
Let’s hope they don’t kill flag
balmy condor
<:prayge:803711491021733888>
tribal marlin
i like how everyone's first reaction to sin simming well is "MUST BE SUSPICIOUS ...
Hahaha nothing to do with your sims no worry. Everytime PTR sims are done, or any sims in generals are done, I (and everyone) should always take a suspicious eye
balmy condor
agree
tribal marlin
it's better to be suspicious for nothing than be exited for sims that are doomed
balmy condor
PTR/Beta sims are super weird sometimes
stoic needle
yeah i totally get that
like sub having deathly and akaaris enabled at the same time lol
tribal marlin
exactly 😄
yeah doomblade always has been better
or maybe it's because of Envenom fix
should devalue Zoldyck
stoic needle
@balmy condor so did we ever come to a consensus whether CT was worth casting on ST?
i saw that being discussed a little while ago
balmy condor
it is, but it's not worth the mental
stoic needle
listen i need every point of damage i can get to beat the boomkins in pug keys
balmy condor
might change with cttc as well idk
tribal marlin
SBS is making no sense
Why dafuq is the initial damage are buffed by mastery
while it's reduced by armor
balmy condor
but currently you would CT over an envenom if you're close to max energy, and envenom won't be buffed by shiv/ma
tribal marlin
so it's technically not bleed damage
balmy condor
so like if shiv is on cd, you're about to cap, use a finisher, CT is in pandemic
you would hit a CT
faint harness
SBS is making no sense
The game makes little sense does it
stoic needle
if you get perfect 20/20/20/20 stats you unlock Zensassination mode and begin scaling at 250%
soon
plain thistle
hey, anyone knows if you can feint cleansing pain on denath mythic?
tribal marlin
seems like the execute part of Blindside is
default good execute
worth ~150dps overall and ~300 in execute range
plain thistle
hey, anyone knows if you can feint cleansing pain on denath mythic?
It does apparently
fleet anchor
so that's why Assa profile lost a truck of dps recently
Well, could also view it as why Assassination lost a truckload of dps in Shadowlands 😄 Besides the bad tuning to begin with.
Such a random and silly change tbh
Envenom has pandemiced for years
fleet anchor
Maybe? I dunno, even with Expedient we didn't have 100% uptime lol
stoic needle
tribal marlin
Envenom has pandemiced for years
yeah I don't get it
fleet anchor
If I were to guess
I think they messed it up when fixing the Dashing bugs and messing with Envenom buff spell flags
I would be willing to bet money it was not truly intentional
faint harness
Might get fixed then
stark heart
@fleet anchor is there anything in spell data that lets us detect pandemic? I think no
fleet anchor
Probably a spell flag of some sort but I don't think anyone has figured it out specifically
tribal marlin
I'll made a bug report about it as well
Well remember on the Beta
or the Alpha maybe ?
there were a bug with Envenom
it started to be a debuff
then was both a buff and a debuff
fleet anchor
Yes they messed it up with Dashing
fleet anchor
And then messed with the flags for like 3 builds
fleet anchor
Maybe it'll get fixed when pickpocking crimson vial materials
stark heart
whenever they remember we exist
that's next beta
low girder
idk didn't we get leggos like 3 months after everyone else
stark heart
I am pretty sure they are turbo aware of rogue's existence every raid tier, like they make sure rogues can't abuse shit, but that's attention of encounter designers and not class team
stoic needle
yo that better not be me you're talking about
it wasn't but now i'm gonna advertise cute cat and cute catboy
balmy condor
stoic needle
so i'm trying out this pooling for envenom thing, and it's a lot more waiting than the spammy way i was playing sin before that
strange python
i wna switch to venthyr tbh
strange python
i picked them to begin with cuz people were like "oh yeah theres not really a difference between the covenants"
and then its like
flaggelation is dogshit
strange python
yeah i really like the zone and aesthetic
so ill probably waste some time switching for the 3rd time
balmy condor
how much of a loss is it to overcap on energy?
you would still spam during TB and stuff
sorry, shiv
it's just when you're waiting for shiv
stoic needle
yea i get the idea behind it
balmy condor
I can run some sims to compare
stark heart
sorry, shiv
nah, it's TB
slow marsh
So is the verdict just venthyr is playable / slightly better than kyrian but not NF or are we not final yet
stoic needle
well, i didn't get the ring, but i did get memory 
plain thistle
@stoic needle this one?
stoic needle
i'm interested in that addon
limber lion
Advanced Tooltips does that
stoic needle
ty
tribal marlin
@balmy condor
This is what we need for Sepsis (and maybe Flag) sync :
variable,name=convoke_desync,value=ceil((interpolated_fight_remains-15-cooldown.ca_inc.remains)%180)=ceil((interpolated_fight_remains-15-120-cooldown.convoke_the_spirits.remains)%180)|cooldown.ca_inc.remains>interpolated_fight_remains|cooldown.convoke_the_spirits.remains>interpolated_fight_remains-10|!covenant.night_fae
I'm trying to figure out how this can work with us xD
faint harness
Cant you just snag the bote line
fleet whale
balmy condor
POG
rigid wyvern
for council is it correct to bleed a second target for energy?
if so is it just rupture or rupture + garrote
balmy condor
I'm honestly not sure cause no sims, but I feel like it should be just garrote
as a feelycraft
rigid wyvern
whispyr recommending feelscraft gasp
marble hemlock
Should be garrote only. That's what the consensus was back on jaina p3 at least ^^
limber lion
for council is it correct to bleed a second target for energy?
Just copy what Peen is doing and you'll be gucci 🤪
marble hemlock
The energy gain from a full duration rupture (and the need to maintain poison on it) was generally not worth it during all of bfa. At least on fights where that rupture was solely for energy
If you also benefit from it's damage it's worth it
tribal marlin
I don't really feel like we starve for energy with blindside
I mean, comparing to BoD
BoD was before Lucid Dream and stuff
hollow escarp
sepsis 
tribal marlin
we were extremely starved
marble hemlock
Ye, it's not bad actually
limber lion
The energy gain from a full duration rupture (and the need to maintain poison on...
So say you played with Subterfuge. Would you open with garr > garr > garr on Council? 
marble hemlock
No idea
limber lion
Same dude, same.
tribal marlin
sepsis <a:PeepoShake:740024865175634010>
haha long live sepsis, but yours is better quality 😦
I'm jealouse
hollow escarp
I was looking for it on my PC but can't find it 
marble hemlock
Just need one of those government zoom programs they always show on tv, that can suddenly triple the resolution
tribal marlin
@balmy condor look
3mn sims, moving 2nd sepsis to 2:00 rather than 1:30
this one you know
but this new one
balmy condor
yes
marble hemlock
I mean
tribal marlin
moving 3rd Vendetta to 2:70 rather than 2:40
marble hemlock
Pretty obvious
tribal marlin
over 300s sim
We need to implement it in the apl dude
that last vendetta and Seps needs to be synced in < 6mn fights, either by delaying Sep or Vend depend which is optimal
hollow escarp
for zoldyck value?
tribal marlin
well that's with Zoldyck indeed but
it doesn't really matter
without legendary
tribal marlin
There just ain’t enough impact on covenants compared to convoke
Was reacting to this mainly*
I will find something generic
stay tune xD
spice spire
22 wipes on sire 
void pecan
235 legs have been achieved. Assassination is back on the menu
stoic needle
please, ye gods. you know what I want
spice spire
Phials for all
icy crater
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
wide bolt
have we tried new flag sims with Vendetta CDR leggo?
viral meadow
anyone know how long it takes to swap to a new covenant and catch up the renown?
spice spire
Couple of days If you hard grind bgs/callings/mythics
Took me a week when it was at 26
balmy condor
have we tried new flag sims with Vendetta CDR leggo?
that could be arranged
balmy condor
ayo what the flag sims are out
as promised :)
wide bolt
just a thought hell if anything the buff might end up desyncing it more with new flag and make it worse for all we know
obtuse ruin
is there any high m+ assa streamer these days?
stoic needle
i def learned a thing or two from his stream
obtuse ruin
ok
stoic needle
@iron orchid
balmy condor
just a thought hell if anything the buff might end up desyncing it more with new...
all venthyr, except the niya one obviously
stoic needle
balmy condor
I'm planning on taking a look at APL stuff at some point this week once all the kinks get ironed out and such
stoic needle
duskwalkers looking pretty decent
stoic needle
is that a lot
balmy condor
yes
stoic needle
oh wait venthyr zold has higher apm even though it sims slightly lower
balmy condor
yes
it varies based on stuff obviously
but I'd say like 2 apm
is pretty safe bet
balmy condor
yeah
balmy condor
oh wait venthyr zold has higher apm even though it sims slightly lower
to put it in perspective in something a little more reasonable, the difference in speed is roughly equal to about 10% haste on gear
wide bolt
makes me want to play around with talents
like not taking alac
but the other opitions on that row
are so bad
balmy condor
yeh
wide bolt
that it doesnt matter probably
balmy condor
exsang is bad with 120% haste
and venom rush is just mutilate cost reduction, which doesn't matter as you get to that insane haste level, and it provides similar effects to alacrity, without any of the haste damage gains
wide bolt
yea never forget set and forget old venom rush
balmy condor
venthyr assassination is actually just faster than any form of assassination outside of 8.3 I think
wide bolt
thats gonna feel real nice
might end up going venth even if its not "the best" so long as its not suepr trash
wide bolt
make sin feel good and i like venthyr asthetics way more
balmy condor
I'm just concerned how the speed this early in the expansion is going to look like 2-3 tiers from now
we might get haste borrowed powers and shit, more haste from gear as ilvl goes up
I don't think it's unreasonable that with a little bit of help through the expansion, we'll see gcd capped assassination again
wide bolt
sin is as fast as outlaw by the end of SL calling it
split veldt
i really hope we get cool conduits in 9.1
also how do i get rid of this yellow discord color
balmy condor
sin is as fast as outlaw by the end of SL calling it
we
oof that early enter
we'd probably want to actually avoid haste at some point
rather than keep stacking it
if it gets to that level
split veldt
i dont want to be asociated with roll the bones anymore 
balmy condor
at least as it stands now
stoic needle
also how do i get rid of this yellow discord color
Type !outlaw in #bot-spam
balmy condor
if we get a bleed borrowed power, haste could be good
stoic needle
utlaw
split veldt
Type !outlaw in <#232915274670669826>
thanks fam
wide bolt
probably crit to turn that energy into cps more effectively
or just straight vers to hit harder
balmy condor
but currently, I would assume that as we get closer and closer to giga speed
we'd just hard stack crit vers over haste
in like 2 tiers time
obviously no one can predict what'll happen in that time
but I wouldn't be surprised if that's where we're going
split veldt
our tier set better be awesome
wide bolt
thats true tier sets could blast 9.1
balmy condor
if the tier set gives energy I'm actually done lmao
split veldt
but the way blizz talks about tier set i feel like we wont get it until last patch
balmy condor
slowly just eliminating the slow playstyle of sin scares me
like 45-53ish apm feels fine to me
but when you get 8.3 haste
and you're just gcd capped
it's fun for like a week where you're blasting
but it got really old for me
shy dust
I don't think it's unreasonable that with a little bit of help through the expan...
Or just run deeper
balmy condor
what is wps
well placed steel
balmy condor
yeah bis lists show it +5 to +10
ornate herald
oo
balmy condor
I welcome the EP/Deeper overlords
blindside kinda sick though
pls buff ambush
I like the proc
balmy condor
curious thing about new flag is that you get more haste, which feels like you should go deeper over vigor, but you also need to slam finishers in that window, which makes you want to go vigor
fallow otter
But it sounds a bit too much like pistol shot /opportunity for my liking if I'm honest
balmy condor
I'd assume deeper overall will be better than just playing for the window
but my feelcraft 
balmy condor
But it sounds a bit too much like pistol shot /opportunity for my liking if I'm ...
I mean that's basically what it is
wide bolt
im assuming for now sims have just been done with current profiles and experiementation with talents andsuch will be coming up as ptr changes continue coming up?
@balmy condor i guess lol
balmy condor
I'm gonna look at whether or not that changes anything, as well as flag usage, later this week
my guess is maybe deeper over vigor, probably not ep over blindside, and you'd want less haste
but other than that, just slam on cooldown like everything else I guess
crisp edge
what would we do without you and your brilliant theory craftings 
balmy condor
probably live a peaceful life
without me trolling the community about the value of cttc
balmy condor
I GET IT RAE
shy dust
balmy condor
drifting cloud
dont trust the sims
balmy condor
what if the sims don't trust us
crisp edge
yea we should let simcraft play the game for us probably will end up getting wf ina day
balmy condor
well there's rotation helpers that technically do that
gloomy knoll
what's wps?
manic harness
Tl;Dr of the info you've discovered today?
gloomy knoll
oh is that sin conduit
manic harness
Well placed steel
void pecan
gloomy knoll
so looks like outlaw still the go to in .5
i was hoping we'd get something neat
oh well
balmy condor
Tl;Dr of the info you've discovered today?
uh, to sum real quick, new venthyr is red sepsis, gives haste, it's pretty competitive, doom is strong single target, dusk has some niche depending on fight times, zoldyck still looking strong overall
gloomy knoll
what
balmy condor
probably some unintended change during prepatch/9.0 stuff
gloomy knoll
yea that sounds like a sphagetti bug
manic harness
Sounds like we can get that hotfix buffed
gloomy knoll
honestly sin with blindside isn't all that bad
if they just upped the energy gen like a tad i'd be ok with it being meta
balmy condor
if they just upped the energy gen like a tad i'd be ok with it being meta
so venthyr :P
crisp edge
the problem with blindside is that you already have enough shit to press and theres rarely enough time to get full value out of it + it dosnt even do that much dmg ambush i mean
maybe when the new passive arrives it will be better
manic harness
So Flag is strong enough to offset worse soul binds?
manic harness
Doesn't Mut have 2x chance to process poison though?
crisp edge
yea but the other 2 are more promising
crisp edge
what ? no it dosnt !
gloomy knoll
i'm fairly certain it's just worth pressing over it
manic harness
I don't think the difference is that big
gloomy knoll
same energy
wide bolt
its worth pressing over for the free cp
balmy condor
So Flag is strong enough to offset worse soul binds?
yes
balmy condor
tripple mutilates damage
double
manic harness
@balmy condor excellent. Thank you so much for all the work btw.
balmy condor
well I'm looking at sims right now mutilate is 1800 dpet and ambush is 3280 dpet
so
drifting cloud
if youre not pressing dont play the talent lmao
manic harness
I might have a little crush on you idk
balmy condor
mut hit good
gloomy knoll
prob just misremembering
gloomy knoll
lol
crisp edge
ambush needs to get buffed somehow maybe 100 % crit proc or smth
balmy condor
nah but the reason we don't hit ambush is mostly CP things
shy dust
ambush needs to get buffed somehow maybe 100 % crit proc or smth
Why does it need that
gloomy knoll
you use it when you get a proc right?
balmy condor
yes
gloomy knoll
just not form stealth
manic harness
If encounter design is good, Mut will definitely be the go to for Rogue next tier
crisp edge
if you wanna make it competitive compare to the other 2
balmy condor
if you don't play blindside, you don't hit ambush
wide bolt
not from stealth or sepsis
balmy condor
if you play blindside, you hit on proc
gloomy knoll
yea that's what i figured
manic harness
Problem is they're doing this shit where half the fights are st and the other half are cleave
shy dust
Esta how is it even confusing
balmy condor
I agree
shy dust
You get a free proc and you use it
gloomy knoll
people were saying you don't press blindside
and i said you just press it when you get a proc
shy dust
People say all kind of dumb things
loud silo
so they've changed flag but dont they dont to have a look at the necro ability?
shy dust
This channels CF said cut to the chase would be worth 40 dps
shy dust
And it was 200
balmy condor
6-7
wide bolt
yo thats 6-7 envenoms/rupture applications huge
shy dust
That’s a lot of math
shy dust
I trust robot to tell me
gloomy knoll
man
crisp edge
it all depends on the fight and the timings if theres like a pause phase or some shit in the fight the value of the new passive drops but if you have 100 % uptime its hugeee
manic harness
Well it's like I said before...it's not just about casting SnD. It's about not having to spend the cp to refresh SnD between Rupture and Garrote before you can go ham. Less setup is good imo.
gloomy knoll
how sins execute stack up to other specs
late veldt
yo thats 6-7 envenoms/rupture applications huge
More PB procs 
gloomy knoll
with blindside + dicks
balmy condor
to be completely transparent, the current sims are casting snd 8.5 times, new one casts it once in opener and then never again
balmy condor
how sins execute stack up to other specs
it's uppity
gloomy knoll
it's uppity
so like compared to dk tho
balmy condor
slightly worse, but comparable
drifting cloud
isnt dk the best execute?
balmy condor
yeh
gloomy knoll
war i thought
crisp edge
dk with soul reaper
gloomy knoll
ah gotcha
balmy condor
we start at 30, as does dk
gloomy knoll
yea
crisp edge
dk starts at 35 %
balmy condor
either way
crisp edge
not 30
manic harness
Dk 35
loud silo
war starts at 35
gloomy knoll
only with talent
loud silo
if you dont talent that youre trolling no?
manic harness
Having another execute class in raid changes the value of everyone's execute drastically
crisp edge
but warriors condom has also value over 75 % so its close
loud silo
i think warrior has best execute but its raid utility and overall damage is whats lacking compared to unholy
manic harness
Did you guys see that stupid interview about class stacking?
manic harness
Oh 4 Unholy is okay
crisp edge
no link me
manic harness
What the fuck are Rogues good at?
gloomy knoll
it's ok that high end guilds only want udk for raiding because
at the shitty end
they balance out to take rogues
cuz theirs not enough good dk rerollers
manic harness
Lmaoooo
shy dust
Having an execute and having a strong execute are two completely different things
gloomy knoll
was basically their response
shy dust
Sin execute is strong
gloomy knoll
fair point
fire mage execute is only strong cuz of the mobility
the damage is pretty w/e
same with hunter
pretty sure their execute is w/e
crisp edge
good old 8.0 warrior execute it was like last dps till last phase of ghunn 😄 then 1st dps in less than a minute rip
shy dust
Mage execute is not that nuts in PvP
manic harness
I was talking about huntee
gloomy knoll
they don't even use that talent in pvp
manic harness
Hunter*
loud silo
arms warrior execute in nya
gloomy knoll
but yea kill shot is nice in pvp
shy dust
O idk about hunter it’s fairly bad in PvP to begin with
shy dust
But yeah havinf a strong execute is a very good bonus for sin
gloomy knoll
^
manic harness
Maybe in super top end
gloomy knoll
dicks definitely helps push sin towards being a more viable melee
compared to other classes melees
just need the tuning to back it up
who keeps getting filtered
bout to get shi up in here lol
manic harness
I mean I'm pretty sure Sin will be #1 or #2 melee if patch went live tomorrow
gloomy knoll
nah
shy dust
Maybe from a dps on a pure st boss
loud silo
sin cleave isnt shit
gloomy knoll
top 4 st dps specs out of every spec in the game
crisp edge
this raid is kind of weird there's a lot of phases that you can abuse dmg and assa is kind of good with that so its gonna be good
loud silo
its just not amazing
manic harness
Rae that is really surprising
drifting cloud
this raid is kind of weird there's a lot of phases that you can abuse dmg and as...
bro what
shy dust
this raid is kind of weird there's a lot of phases that you can abuse dmg and as...
Abuse damage?
drifting cloud
are you baiting or just that clueless
shy dust
And yeah hunter is just not that strong whatsoever
manic harness
He means like Sludge
crisp edge
like sludge yea
shy dust
But even then
crisp edge
or huntsman
gloomy knoll
isn't sin only the play on council?
shy dust
Sludge pillar is an 8 second window of damage
drifting cloud
sludge melts below 30%
shy dust
You wouldn’t even run zoldyck on sludge realistically
drifting cloud
it has a way shorter execute phase than a normal boss
manic harness
String execute + Vendetta seems good
gloomy knoll
what's vendetta with dashing
shy dust
Dashing is just more energy basically
Sludge is an overall damage check
The last part is not a harder dps check or anything
gloomy knoll
er not dashing
shy dust
It’s just making it to certain % by each break
gloomy knoll
duskwalker
drifting cloud
62 is perfect for sludge
crisp edge
yea 60 is like nuts
gloomy knoll
yea but
manic harness
So everyone is saying Rogue is #12 dps right now right?
crisp edge
you vendetta almost every pillar
manic harness
I've seen the data on Wowhead
crisp edge
and opener
shy dust
I don’t know if there is a specific number we are
manic harness
But I forget if they're going by 95th percentile?
shy dust
It’s just we don’t bring outstanding damage nor do we bring utility
drifting cloud
rogue isnt gonna climb at 95%
drifting cloud
if anything it drops a rank
shy dust
So we are bad relatively
manic harness
Well here's what I'm saying
If rogue is 12th at 95th percentile with Outlaw
You'd assume that's with good rolls right?
gloomy knoll
no that's with every roll
manic harness
Like the bad roll parses just get phased out?
drifting cloud
no because rolls dont matter for 95
shy dust
Nah that’s just general good play
shy dust
If you wanna look at the maximum
Then yeha outlaw will generally have a higher peak
Just due to its variance
gloomy knoll
^
fallow otter
Remember when the red names flooded the subt channel, look at this situation right now 🤣
manic harness
If Assassination Sims 200 dps higher than average Outlaw
That's pretty good consistenly
drifting cloud
yes but raiding isnt pure st
manic harness
Obviously
gloomy knoll
and a 95 on outlaw doesn't require good rolls
manic harness
But raiding isn't m+ sustained cleave either
gloomy knoll
i get 99's with meh rolls
shy dust
It depends on many factors outside of sim dps
But yes being a strong st spec will help assassination
loud silo
Like the bad roll parses just get phased out?
your rolls arent going to have that much of an impact on your parse
gloomy knoll
getting 5 buffs is about the difference between a 99 and a 100
loud silo
if you get good rolls and play bad you will still get a bad parse
gloomy knoll
but besides that it's mostly just crit rng
shy dust
Stop focusing on what wasn’t their point
gloomy knoll
wasn't the point that outlaws 95-100th percentile isn't as valid as a representation of their specs strength compared to sin due to it's innate variance but that's not true
loud silo
how is that not?
scenic kelp
Hey guys anyone think with the new ptr buffs assa will be stronger with snd changes and more energy?
manic harness
Well I hope Assassination has the damage delivery diversity to compete with Outlaw in 2-3 target fights
shy dust
Hey guys anyone think with the new ptr buffs assa will be stronger with snd chan...
Yes
It’s a rather large dps gain
drifting cloud
it reminds me of the antorus fok bug fix
"oh wow we cant actually design the spec so now we have to buff it so people dont fok on st"
scenic kelp
Seems that you have to use 1 time snd and the duration will be up the whole fight or?
shy dust
Yep
shy dust
Assuming you don’t magically stray away from the boss from 40 seconds
drifting cloud
do we unbind snd and click it now rae
gloomy knoll
sin has no keybinds tho
manic harness
Never unbind
gloomy knoll
my sin bar is literally half my sub / outlaw bars
shy dust
You can play sin by clicking every button ryler
drifting cloud
I can put detection where snd was
gloomy knoll
because the apm is just that low
scenic kelp
Is there a cap for uptime from snd or Zoe can have like 3min or more like with the outlaw buff?
shy dust
It’s capped
scenic kelp
otherwise u just hit a dummy for an hour
Would be fkn nice 😂
manic harness
I think it's 54 seconds
tribal marlin
otherwise u just hit a dummy for an hour
well to be honest, you won't get 7h of SnD in an hour of dummy bashing :3
shy dust
I think so ryler
manic harness
I don't know why I think that
gloomy knoll
well to be honest, you won't get 7h of SnD in an hour of dummy bashing :3
need 5 priests supporting you with pi's
xD
scenic kelp
Will test it today have a lot of haste right know hopefully assa is the Go to next Tier
drifting cloud
somebody poke their blizzard uncle to check if they know sub still exists
manic harness
Sub has no fucking chance man
Too many shiy players in pvp who will complain if sub gets any kind of buff
Because they don't understand how rogues work
gloomy knoll
hey
just how blizzard said
some specs are aoe and some specs are cleave
and that's why not a single ranged spec has target caps
just like how sub is a pvp spec
scenic kelp
The state of rogues is rly bad im outlaw and my guild stopped raiding i asked in like 20 guilds (im 6/10) in 4-6/10 guilds and no one wants rogues idk its rly hard
manic harness
Ranged do have target caps, don't they?
gloomy knoll
not really
shy dust
Flame patch is not capped yes
gloomy knoll
some caps
drifting cloud
rae I did first raid as assa yesterday, on sire 1st adds a fok gave me 1cp
feels like good times
gloomy knoll
it depends on if that cap is where it matters
shy dust
Yeah it felt awful on sire
manic harness
Well yeah but a blanket statement that ranged don't have caps is just not correct
It's one thing for us to suck
gloomy knoll
i mean they really don't
shy dust
Had to fok like 3 times on a pack of 8 to get cp
manic harness
It's another to spread misinfo
gloomy knoll
dot specs are only pseudo capped by time limitations
and the only class that's capped that's not dot based is really hunter
mage uncapped warlock uncapped
is earthquake capped?
stoic needle
Uncap sin 
manic harness
I mean I said this in MoP but Blade Flurry just needs to be removed
stoic needle
Make pb great again
gloomy knoll
poison bomb being great was not great tho
your parses were literally
did you get procs
your aoe was
stoic needle
Make it a finisher
gloomy knoll
did you get procs
stoic needle
Problem solved
manic harness
Impossible to balance the other specs aoe when BF exists
stoic needle
Impossible to balance the other specs aoe when BF exists
Why? I don't understand this logic
manic harness
Blade Flurry has been de facto the best aoe ability for the class
They refuse to make the other two specs able to compete with it
gloomy knoll
it's really the only aoe ability
manic harness
I think it's dumb but that's been true for literally all of wow
gloomy knoll
until we got black powder
manic harness
Which is why I think it needs to be removed
gloomy knoll
fok and shuriken storm aren't really aoe lol
shy dust
I don’t think it needs to be removed
drifting cloud
blade flurry has only been a problem for 1xpac
shy dust
Other specs just need more aoe damage
drifting cloud
not since forever ago
stoic needle
If ct were baseline it would complete
shy dust
No
gloomy knoll
i mean
shy dust
Sin doesn’t need more baseline
shy dust
Do you literally want sub to be removed from the game M8
stoic needle
Sin doesn’t need more baseline
Hard disagree
stoic needle
Do you literally want sub to be removed from the game M8
This doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with sub buffs
manic harness
Yeah but they literally won't make CT, FoK or BP do the same damage as Blade Flurry
shy dust
That’s just balancing though
drifting cloud
😩
shy dust
For example sun should just beat outlaw at 8 targets
gloomy knoll
in raids for aoe it can kinda do
shy dust
But it’s not tuned that way
manic harness
I mean they have actively refused to balance it though
gloomy knoll
where as sub blackpowder is just shit
if ur casting bp in a raid environment
ur actually just inting ur raid
by being there
shy dust
Fuck the raid in here to parse 
gloomy knoll
stoic needle
But the burst aoe
drifting cloud
have you done tornado slg yet rae
tribal marlin
Sin is fine, it just need more raid value but that's true for other 2 spec anyway
gloomy knoll
i think sin and outlaw are in a good spot for .5
shy dust
We took this week so no but I’ll play sub for it this week
gloomy knoll
just other classes are better and have a raid cd
shy dust
I think outlaw is like an above average spec currently
Just the other top end do it better
manic harness
The only way I can see them buffing FoK and Ss enough in terms of pure damage is to make them not generate CP so that we can't use them st
gloomy knoll
like it claps M+
shy dust
It doesn’t mean outlaw isn’t good it’s just not elite
gloomy knoll
and it's very solid in raid
we just missing a raid cd
or some kind of good damage profile
manic harness
Make Smoke Bomb great again
tribal marlin
But it's also hard to balance. I always talk about it almost every day, but sin has one of the best effective dps of all classes (because of dots / 170 energy so you almost not lose ressource while moving) etc...
If Assa gets a raid value like AMZ, why would you ever bring anything else than Sin rogues
gloomy knoll
like execute / burst
stoic needle
I think in general nerfing outlaw is not the play
gloomy knoll
i mean
raid cd's are stacked
you bring 1 of each
or you bring multiple of something broken
manic harness
It's not like other classes don't have raid utility though
shy dust
Yeah I don’t agree with that
shy dust
They can always tune numbers accordingly
manic harness
If we outdamage DK then it's up in the air then
gloomy knoll
you still bring a dk
drifting cloud
sure thing lunareste tell that to the ferals
gloomy knoll
warriors are literal dogshit this entire tier outside of last boss
manic harness
And Rogue is actually very close to UH in damage already
manic harness
Yoy bring them for their buff
gloomy knoll
exactly
fallow otter
warriors are literal dogshit this entire tier outside of last boss
Good for slg
gloomy knoll
you still go bring a dk for amz
manic harness
If yoy have all buffs, why bring 2 warriors and not a class that does more damage?
stoic needle
Frost is bis dk spec now
shy dust
I would not call warriors good for slg
fallow otter
But still want a dk
tribal marlin
Yeah but I mean imagine smoke bomb, 3mn CD 20% damage reduction, cheese some mechanics, act as a mass grip in some case. See the picture ?
Why would you ever chose anything else than Rogue to fill your melee spots ? Would be the same shit than AMZ, get a warrior and a DH, then stack rogue
manic harness
Right but if our damage is high enough we don't need to bring utility
gloomy knoll
so you want to either be
busted as hell
or not wanted at all
seems like a horrible niche
i'd rather have a raid cd
manic harness
How do you think this game has worked for the last 8 years at least?
gloomy knoll
Yeah but I mean imagine smoke bomb, 3mn CD 20% damage reduction, cheese some mec...
because buffs
manic harness
Everyone wants a raid cd dude.
gloomy knoll
5% from dh 5% from monk
manic harness
What we are saying is
gloomy knoll
yes
once everyone has a raid cd
then effectively nobody does
unless theirs one that's by far ahead the best
that's the end goal here
we all have decent raid cd's and so you just bring 1 of each and stack what's busted with the leftover room
tribal marlin
UH suffer a bit more to downtime because of CDR mechanics but it still has very strong effective DPS because of the way they work. You just need to correctly line up CD with AotD, you have down time dps with your pet etc... Unholy is really a good melee class.
stoic needle
It wouldn't be bad if they had duplicates of the buffs across classes
gloomy knoll
that would be kinda nice
stoic needle
What if sub had a 5% magic (and shadow) damage debuff, and sin and outlaw had 5% physical damage debuffs
manic harness
Or add a debuff like sated to the AMZ effect works too
gloomy knoll
nah cuz then ur forced into specs
it should be classwide
but it'd be totally dope
if for instance
dh AND rogue gave 5% magic
stoic needle
Yeah that's what I'm saying
stoic needle
Rogues could do both physical and magic depending on spec
manic harness
Why not both?
gloomy knoll
that's horrible
manic harness
Fuck it
gloomy knoll
then your forced into playing specs you don't want to pay
stoic needle
So we have even more chance of being brought 
gloomy knoll
it should be classwide onl
tribal marlin
Well "having a weakier raid CD" is still better than "not having a raid CD".
Having a weakier raid CD doesn't really matter outside of RWF
Having no raid CD at all does matter even in just random top 150 guilds
fallow otter
fallow otter
@shy dust 
gloomy knoll
regardless of if we want it to or not
shy dust
That doesn’t make it good
Overall damage on SLG is not the most important thing
Burst on shield is still the most important part of the fight
fallow otter
They have CDs up for every group
fallow otter
Anyway... Unlike sludge bringing a warrior for buff doesn't feel bad for mslg
Sludge feels bad
tribal marlin
Raid buff is something different. I think they should duplicate raid buff like it was the case a long time ago.
Not like giving a unique raid buff to everyone, but having at least more option in term of raid comps when it comes to have all raid buff.
fallow otter
Assuming we can use cloak to soak some important mechanics next raid we will be back on the table
Nzoth style
tribal marlin
cloak soaking need very specific interaction to be viable
manic harness
They need to make cloak 1 min and ams 3 mins
tribal marlin
Nzoth is not cloak soaking, it's immunity soaking
manic harness
If dk is also gonna bring amz
drifting cloud
you dont even need a warr on sludge if you only have 1-2 hunters and 2hpalas
manic harness
Otherwise make am blood only
tribal marlin
You can just bring Paladins / Mage / Hunter, no need for rogue
tribal marlin
but you can still pre-immune it with any classes
for Cloak soaking to be a niche, you would have to like ...
Imagine a pool that you need to soak to make it disapear and everytime you soak it you get a dot that stack
You can surely IB / Bubble soak it
but cloak has 2mn while these have 5
And you can like reset stacks with cloak
stoic needle
Cloak is nice for soaking xymox traps
drifting cloud
cloaking adds is huge for inerva prog, I mean its an easy boss
shy dust
Cloak is nice for soaking xymox traps
No it’s not
drifting cloud
but not like you have a nything better to use cloak on