assassination

[glad scroll]

Only*

[balmy condor]

I mean, sure

it probably falls under the same thing as like sepsis from stealth or sepsis after rup kinda thing

[knotty sparrow]

Is PvP gear with vers/haste kinda crap for sin? It does great as outlaw and I want to try sin but I’m worried I’ll be at a huge disadvantage

[balmy condor]

where that one gcd won't have any real difference

but I can get behind that being a marginal gain

[stoic needle]

No it's nearly bis

[knotty sparrow]

In PVE I mean

[stoic needle]

Yes

It's nearly bis in pve

[knotty sparrow]

Oh great. What’s better ? Haste/crit?

[stoic needle]

Depends on what you're doing but they're usually about the same

The thing is pvp gear is weighted heavily for vers instead of haste so ideally youd want stuff that's haste/vers instead of vers/haste but it's really not that big of a difference

[knotty sparrow]

Right yeah

[balmy condor]

ilvl is king

stop worrying about secondary stats

[faint harness]

when will the scale tip over? so i can start using crit on gear mister

i have been toying around with 1 more crit

and honestly it feels good

[balmy condor]

yo big true

glad that extra 0.035% crit is making an impact man

glad to hear it

[faint harness]

yea like it feels great

[shy sky]

Lmao do passive aggressive

[stoic needle]

Yeah I just feel like spending 1cp on the initial snd then relying on cctc to build it up could be a gain. Spending as few cp on SND as possible I guess

[fleet whale]

people overrate secondary stats

[faint harness]

this bad boy can save your log man

[balmy condor]

hey man, I have you know, that gem is ALMOST half a % of crit

[faint harness]

yea its HUGE value

[fleet whale]

it was hilarious that a dude on reddit told me that "a dps using a all pvp gear will barely be above tanks"
since "verse is a bad stat for a majority of classes" lol

[balmy condor]

some might say GIGA

[faint harness]

giga dam

[stoic needle]

Yes, "all damage you deal is increased by %" is totally a bad stat

Guess I should just never press vendetta

[fleet whale]

There is def some sort of disconnect within the playerbase

[faint harness]

tanks are not known for their mechanical skills and knowledge

[fleet whale]

those who know that secondaries aren't as impactful as they were in the past

[faint harness]

well its the influx of classic players

[fleet whale]

and those who still drink the "scaling" kool aid

[faint harness]

boomers that last played wotlk or cata

and just assumes its the same

[fleet whale]

they are like high end mythic raiders who still believe in scaling though

[stoic needle]

I mean classic players don't even think that way

Everyone knows that mainstat is the best stat in classic

[faint harness]

true

[stoic needle]

Well for melee at least

[fleet whale]

I think part of it is because TCers, if players even know who they are

aren't really looked at highly

[stoic needle]

I had no idea who koji or mystler was before I joined the disc or saw their name on a wowhead guide

Still don't really know who they are either

[fleet whale]

well what i guess i'm trying to get at is that some players don't react well when the hard numbers

don't match up with their feelings

[stoic needle]

Oh yeah

Feelcraft is king

[balmy condor]

but what about our god theorycrafter, infexious gaming rogue guides of guiding rogues on the youtube gaming twitch streams rogue

[faint harness]

when ur Limit, you prob dont want to rely on patchwerk sims

[fleet whale]

along with his WA's that he charges people to use

[limber lion]

That's pretty much every streamer/Youtuber.

[balmy condor]

when you're limit, you also have the brain power to use sims to your advantage when evaluating fights and stuff

[stoic needle]

I feel like limit should be able to read a patchwerk sim, look at the fight there progging on and see how it might be different

[faint harness]

they use PTR to test it

[fleet whale]

plus Limit is facing bosses while being very undergeared

[dark vigil]

limit doesn't look at sims

max has said this himself

[fleet whale]

they have to sort of figure things out themselves

and possibly use unorthodox comps

[dark vigil]

because they're too wildly innaccurate for wfirst raiding

[faint harness]

they do tests on eveyr single spec in the game, because they believe they have the best players on each class

so whatever they do

is whats possible

in their pov

i guess

[dark vigil]

limit could put put their best players on survival hunter and outdps 99% of us in here on our best specs

[faint harness]

doubts

[balmy condor]

aight man

calm it

[fleet whale]

unlikely

[faint harness]

its not that huge lol

[stoic needle]

They are good players but the gap between them and the average player isn't THAT high in terms of dps it's situational awareness, communication, ability to adapt and good leadership

[fleet whale]

And experience

and the mental power to raid very long hours

and wipe constantly

[stoic needle]

No spec in wow is that complicated that they'd do that much more dps than us

Because of pure skill

[fleet whale]

really, i think world first raiding is mostly mental

[balmy condor]

I find your opinion too wildly inaccurate for wfirst raiding

[faint harness]

nah its definitely skill

[limber lion]

I'ma be honest here. WoW is an easy fucking game.

[fleet whale]

skill is a part of it, but you need that mentality

[faint harness]

raiding 2 months after the first guilds did it is easy

[limber lion]

The challenge comes from combining your class, boss mechanics, stress and everything else in to one.

[fleet whale]

you need to know you'll take days off of work, that you'll be on wow for like 8+ hours raiding

[stoic needle]

Wow has always been about teamwork more than actual mechanical press button skill

[real bay]

difficulty is getting 20 non-dumbasses

[faint harness]

They killed the hardest boss (SLG) with 215 avg ilvl or something

thats the difficulty

try do that yourself

[stoic needle]

Sounds like ass tbh

[faint harness]

ppl in here probably cant kill it with 225 avg

[stoic needle]

I wish people would understand that when they think about what classes they need to bring to a raid

[faint harness]

i think its dumb to downplay how hard it is to wf raid

[fleet whale]

i'm not denying how hard WF raiding is lol, or that is takes skill

I just think there is a mental aspect to it

[faint harness]

same people who think anyone from twitch chat can just spend more time and get wf lol

[real bay]

doubt majority here are minmaxing their raidcomp

[stoic needle]

It's just annoying when 1/10m guilds try to play like wfr

And make their raid comp as such

[dark vigil]

muST haVE 4 dks 1 ww vdh prot warrior

[real bay]

thats whole another level of dumbness

[fleet whale]

i mean i just want wars, dhs, and monks

just so i can do more dps lol

[real bay]

same people think you need meta specs for 15s

[icy crater]

I mean 2 dks regardless is really nice for grips alone

[stoic needle]

"are u outlaw" when applying to a key

[icy crater]

Do ppl really ask that?

[stoic needle]

I usually reply "outlaw these nuts"

Had someone ask me that 2 days ago

[icy crater]

I get the boomkin/feral question but rogue?

Or ele/enhance

[stoic needle]

Applying to a 13

[fleet whale]

you could just say that you are outlaw

[stoic needle]

I don't even want to play with someone like that

[dark vigil]

when i played my frost mage people would kick me for not being fire. when in reality frost outperforms fire unless tanks play around combustion

[icy crater]

You probably don't want to be in that group anyway.

[dark vigil]

and even then they're comparable

[stoic needle]

But it would be funny to say that I am, switch spec, then change when the key starts

[fleet whale]

and top meters anyway

confuse the crap out of your party lol

[stoic needle]

Frost fucking pumps

[fleet whale]

frost has pretty insane damage

[dark vigil]

yeah

it made no sense

[fleet whale]

which is why the aura buffs made no sense to it

[dark vigil]

uR nOT fIrE? Ew

kick

it needed the first 2 aura buffs for its st i think

st was soooo dogshit

[fleet whale]

it needed some changes

but aura buffs weren't the way

[dark vigil]

it had like a -19% aura or something going into sl launch

[flint arrow]

Do you guys know if Korayn outscalled Niya?

[dark vigil]

hi boaty

[flint arrow]

hey xD

[icy crater]

VVKool

[dark vigil]

korayn better for m+

i think

[balmy condor]

how's that supposed to work

you take korayn in m+ though

everything else is niya

[flint arrow]

hm

[balmy condor]

"scale" is not a synonym for "is better than"

feel like I should say that every now and then

just to make sure we know

[dark vigil]

i broke my "is better than" because of too much mcdonalds

[limber lion]

I did a key with an Outlaw and did more damage in overall. I still can't understand people that think that if someone plays a better spec, that they automatically do 400% more damage

[stoic needle]

FAQ CHANNEL WHEN

[icy crater]

I think people think its a synonym for will be better than eventually based on no tuning and gear acquisition alone

[balmy condor]

yeah and that's the fucking problem ain't it

[stoic needle]

You'd think that if I got all of this io in Assassination that means I can actually time keys, but nah, doesn't matter to them

[icy crater]

Like by the time your secondaries "scale" your ability by 0.4% its the next patch there theres tuning

[balmy condor]

riddle me this batman

if we've gotten 3 buffs

and we scale with gear mega hard

why are we still dogshit

[icy crater]

well uh thats because um

we just haven't gotten enough of our good secondary

so uh you just wait

[stoic needle]

All it takes is 20% more damage and a new passive for us to be good. See! We scale with buffs!

[balmy condor]

yeah true

true

[crimson palm]

cuz u need to play better

ofc

[icy crater]

once we get more gear we will scale

so you just have to be patient

[balmy condor]

as long as we keep getting 5% more damage, every 2-3 weeks

we'll be god

[icy crater]

we can't over buff rogue then their scaling gets out of control and they're op

[limber lion]

but I'm already 226 ilvl... when does the scaling happen 😦

[balmy condor]

227, get fucked idiot

[limber lion]

still waiting

[stoic needle]

Could you imagine if they keep aura buffing us

[limber lion]

[stoic needle]

Sorry boys we have to start inting in the logs

Nobody is allowed to parse

[icy crater]

The best scaling we can hope for is just complaining and we get aura'd every 4 weeks

[dark vigil]

meanwhile survival

[stoic needle]

We have to stay at the bottom of the ranking until we get like 10 or 15% more

[loud light]

maybe "scaling" just means the devs like you 🤔

[balmy condor]

survival has like pets and traps and stuff, so many sources of damage

just you wait

[dark vigil]

[balmy condor]

3 sources of damage > some pointy sticks on a rogue

[icy crater]

Be patient, we've been scaling since vanilla

[balmy condor]

survival next op

trust

I literally have never said anything even close to incorrect

why would I start now

[icy crater]

We need a "true" emote I swear

[balmy condor]

[icy crater]

Kind of like but "true"

lmao I def typed and saw that and almost pressed it for the memes

[stoic needle]

📠

[balmy condor]

"sin scales super hard with secondaries, all the evidence that says otherwise is wrong, trust me, I watched preach and read a forum post once"

[stoic needle]

[icy crater]

so what you're saying is, is that when rogues get better gear they do more dps?

[dark vigil]

assassination rogue is the best assassination rogue spec that scales

[topaz saffron]

🙃

[dark vigil]

survival hunter is the best melee hunter spec

[balmy condor]

anything is more than what we do right now

[icy crater]

I said zold should be baseline, then sin has a nice niche and someone said it would be broken op

[dark vigil]

it would be broken op

[tidal gorge]

I have to say, Blizzard is doing a stellar job of making me want to quit the game. A+ effort

[dark vigil]

incoming call from BFA

[balmy condor]

actually insane, we have zoldyck as a legendary, and you want it as a passive? that's like two zoldycks, and I can't count that high

[icy crater]

wait I never thought of wearing zold on top of free passive zold

[balmy condor]

giga stonks

[gleaming tinsel]

Seems like the only thing that scales is whispyr’s insanity with increased scaling talk

[dark vigil]

imagine doomblade + zold

[limber lion]

I think we need a trinket that gives us 30% more bleed damage under when the target is at 30% hp

[balmy condor]

yo true

[trim zinc]

dahsing+zold

[gleaming tinsel]

Just gradually losing your mind to the void

[icy crater]

what if it bugged and the 2nd zold only kicked in at 9%? (30% of 30%)

[gleaming tinsel]

Lmao

[balmy condor]

we're actually unsure if that works

[dark vigil]

not the interaciton

just having both

would be nu ts

[icy crater]

its only nuts if its tuned properly

[balmy condor]

then we'd have the best 9% execute in the game and I'm sure some very eloquent simmers would be jumping for joy at having exactly 27 seconds of PI'd zold execute

[icy crater]

imagine asking for pi at 9.1% LMFAO

guys PLEASE

[gleaming tinsel]

Does sin scale better now is flag good does sin with flag scale is vampire bis how will flag sin perform on next end boss with triple leg scaling

[balmy condor]

[icy crater]

that must be a pasta

[gleaming tinsel]

[tribal marlin]

dude

[gleaming tinsel]

Fresh made pasta

[balmy condor]

what's good dude

[icy crater]

al dante pasta

[faint harness]

https://tenor.com/view/devil-may-cry-dante-gif-13065920

[tribal marlin]

I felt directly punched by your comment xD

[gleaming tinsel]

Nice Dante

[balmy condor]

well I wasn't talking about you but the fact that you feel attacked by it should say something

[stoic needle]

I feel like zoldyck could start at 50% and we'd still be under most ranged

[balmy condor]

kinda sad how that works huh

[tribal marlin]

Keep in mind that Assa have very consistant dps

especially with Zoldyck

[stoic needle]

What classes would you say don't have consistent dps

[balmy condor]

fire

uh, also fire

have you seen a fire mage try and do damage without combust

[tribal marlin]

I mean we do damage regardless of fights mecanics

[balmy condor]

shit makes me cackle

[vivid shuttle]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[tender fjord]

Sub

[balmy condor]

trying to keep up with the holy paladin in deeps

[balmy condor]

sub is super consistent damage what

[stoic needle]

Yeah, consistently shit

[icy crater]

oof

[balmy condor]

you have an 8 second dance, every 25 seconds

how much more consistent do you want

[icy crater]

100% uptime duh

[loud light]

want a 2 second dance every 6 seconds

[balmy condor]

do people actually think that sub is a burst class in pve

[icy crater]

yes

[balmy condor]

wow

that's disheartening

[stoic needle]

It should be

[faint harness]

same dps as assassination tho

[stoic needle]

But enveloping shadows kinda ruins that

[tribal marlin]

It's not what I qualify consistant damage

[stoic needle]

Not on the ptr

[faint harness]

yes

still on the ptr

[tribal marlin]

You need to delay your SoD / SD to avoid getting rekt by mechanics

[faint harness]

cus you dont have VW yet

[tribal marlin]

or you roll dice every time you press Dance

[balmy condor]

well that's just downtime miki

[icy crater]

Every class has to do that

[balmy condor]

it suffers from downtime

[icy crater]

With their cds

[faint harness]

its still 7 on ptr

[balmy condor]

is not the same as being a burst spec vs consistent damage

[stoic needle]

Well the ptr sims were bugged and had 2 legendaries active

Only for sub

So sub is now quite a bit behind sin

[icy crater]

I really am just not a fan of current sub rn.

[tender fjord]

Mechanics happen and you F up a dance. But I more meant it on a smaller level. Small deeps without dance, bigger deeps in dance

[tribal marlin]

When I said "consitant" I don't mean "constant", I mean that even in the worst possible case of an encounter, you still deal a large portion of your sim dps

[balmy condor]

im gonna wait on ptr stuff getting fixed to really know if sub is dumpster

[faint harness]

wdym

[stoic needle]

That's true miki

[faint harness]

this is just false

[tender fjord]

Then I stand corrected

[balmy condor]

we do smaller deeps out of shiv, and bigger deeps in shiv, and it's on a similar timer to symbols, would you count that as not consistent?

[faint harness]

sub is ahead of sin on live realms (still), by like 100 dps or more

i doubt a PTR bug changed that

[balmy condor]

cttc adds around 150-180 dps tho

[stoic needle]

? It was only on par with sin in the ptr because it had akaaris and deathy shadows active at the same time. On ptr cttc and the sin legendary buffs put sin ahead

[tribal marlin]

I mean I may have used a wrong wording. But yes, Subt is sustained damage

[faint harness]

Isnt it cttc + 1 more vw

and atm you dont have 1 more vw

[balmy condor]

the VW + removed energy on slice balance out

[tribal marlin]

when most ranged have dps based on giga 2mn+ burst windows

[balmy condor]

so the energy is still the same

[stoic needle]

The sims are based on everything working correctly

[faint harness]

well

[tribal marlin]

btw I did a Sire video :3

[tender fjord]

Haha isn’t the difference for shiv a bit smaller than symbols? But I misinterpreted consistent as constant. Saw assa as a pretty straight line, sub as a hearthbeat on a monitor

[faint harness]

you dont get it i think

[tribal marlin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ep55XnDRpE

[limber lion]

rank 1 or nah

[icy crater]

Is anyone hard chillin rn that wants to help me out for a sec?

[balmy condor]

yeah, not really how that works

[balmy condor]

with?

[stoic needle]

I think you're missing that cttc + vw buff + legendary tuning put sin flatly ahead of sub

[limber lion]

Nevermind, great music choice. Good stuff

[faint harness]

yes but thats not due to a PTR bug

[balmy condor]

vw buff doesn't do anything guys pls

[icy crater]

Can you sim yourself with like 1k vers then move ~450 of that into crit and let me know the difference?

[balmy condor]

the energy is neutral

[faint harness]

well if you dont get VW

[balmy condor]

sure

[faint harness]

you will lose energy

[icy crater]

Dope, thanks

[faint harness]

so if they never implement it

thats a dps loss

[dark vigil]

@tribal marlin yeah and ur ui gave me cancer

[faint harness]

sure with the extra vw, you are neutral on energy

currently not the case

[dark vigil]

what do you mean if they never implement it?

it's on the ptr

right now

lol

[faint harness]

its not

[stoic needle]

Yeah the ptr bug was the only thing keeping sub sims close to sin sims, now sub is strictly worse

[faint harness]

its still 7 on ptr

[fleet whale]

i mean it's likely going to be changed to 8 lol

considering blizz put it on freaking blue post

[stoic needle]

Why would they not implement it if its in the patch notes

[faint harness]

remember vial

it was in the notes

[fleet whale]

vial was more of a preview thing

never said anythign specific about it

[faint harness]

just saying, i dont trust blizz

they have went back on their notes

more than once

[loud light]

did somebody say

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=319470/pick-pocket

[stoic needle]

[icy crater]

sadge

[fleet whale]

but when VM becomes 8 energy

sin will sim higher than sub

[dark vigil]

isnt it already

[faint harness]

no

[stoic needle]

Right now it's about 100 dps less than sub

[tribal marlin]

what's wrong with my ui >.<

[dark vigil]

its shuck

[stoic needle]

Mikis ui isn't that bad

[dark vigil]

are you sure

[stoic needle]

Yes I'm sure

[dark vigil]

because from wha tim looking at

its about a 30 dps difference

[fleet whale]

default UI crew here

[faint harness]

150 dps buff, should put it 50 dps ahead of sub

[stoic needle]

I've seen some travesties

[icy crater]

I miss my WoD UI, where I actually spent hours making my own custom WA's, it was so nice.

[dark vigil]

from sin and sub

[stoic needle]

Cttc is like 200 and then there's the legendaries too

[dark vigil]

6740 for sin, 6762 for sub

both using niya

[faint harness]

there is no change in legendaries you use tho?

still zoldyck

[dark vigil]

doomblade will be better for "simming"

[faint harness]

lmao

[stoic needle]

If we're talking about pure sim dps it's one thing

[tribal marlin]

because you're used to elvui stuff 😄

[faint harness]

pl

[limber lion]

Didn't you hear that we can equip 3 legendaries in 9.0.5?

[stoic needle]

What you use in practice is another

[icy crater]

Didn't you hear we're getting a scaling buff in 9.0.5

[faint harness]

its like simming with akaari

when nobody would use it

[dark vigil]

also wasnt it found that sub's sims were incorrect

and still are

with it having akaari and deathly shadows

[stoic needle]

That's only on the ptr

[faint harness]

wdym bro

this is some

[loud light]

watch their solution is you eventually use 2 memories to craft a lego that has both effects

[faint harness]

who cares about ptr sims

[loud light]

so you have need a trillion soul ash for different combos

[dark vigil]

sounds like blizzard heaven

player hell

[trim zinc]

ur supposed to never clean your stacks and a priest pull u?

[icy crater]

I want to be able to salvage legos for like 50% soul ash or something

[tribal marlin]

ye

I'm still trying to figure out why

[stoic needle]

Less raid damage?

[tribal marlin]

but we did this because we copied a guild that were doing it xD

[stoic needle]

And less adds to kill

[tribal marlin]

I think the guild who did that originally wanted it to be a melee and they had like 4 DK and 1 rogue

since DK don't care about this mechanics, ended up on the rogue

[tribal marlin]

I did 😦

ok maybe was a mistake

[faint harness]

i mean it has its use on pure st

but the majority play something else, so i dont count that when strictly talking sims

[tribal marlin]

it's like dashing

technically stronger than Zol

yet not a single Assa rogue has parsed with Dashing right ?

[dark vigil]

its just a weird legendary that doesnt feel impactful

[trim zinc]

wouldnt dashing boost even more our execute when we can use 2 leggos?

[dark vigil]

ye

[tribal marlin]

"when" we can use 2 leggo

that's the point

[dark vigil]

by the time 2 leggos comes a thing so much of the game will be different

new legendaries will 100% be added at some point

some will most likely get fully reworked

new borrowed power systems and what not

no point really in even thinking about what you'll use then

[tribal marlin]

But over strictly set time length ( @balmy condor hello) we might want to go Duskwalker anyway

[balmy condor]

[faint harness]

people think we will get 2 legendaries in 9.1 for some reason

[balmy condor]

nah idc that much

I see why you set time length 0

[vast pond]

So close to getting assassin on par with my outlaw sims. 5,999 for outlaw and 5907 for assassination. Just need a decent pair of shoulders and I think it'll be negligible.

[balmy condor]

like in the specific comparison of like X fight length

sure

makes sense

[balmy condor]

I just disagree with using it as a blanket :P

[stoic needle]

This is the only official word we have from blizzard about 2 legendaries

[tribal marlin]

haha ye

[stoic needle]

Not really a confirmation but not a denial either

[faint harness]

It doesnt even say their "expanding" would be 2 legendaries

could be just empowered once

could be anything

[balmy condor]

I'd argue that's already negligible

that's what

1.5%

?

[faint harness]

i dont think a pair of shoulders would change that either

[dark vigil]

jsut get bad rng as outlaw and youll be on par with survival

[faint harness]

the scaling meme

[dark vigil]

⚖️

[faint harness]

"if i just get haste on my shoulders i will do way more sin dps"

[stoic needle]

That's the difference between rolling gm/bt and bs/tb

[balmy condor]

reject modernity, embrace scale

[faint harness]

unlucky that outlaw also wants haste i guess

[tribal marlin]

well basically, what is the purpose of vary_combat_lenght in facts ? It is to give a results that is potentially relevant for a wider range of fight lengths, so that the number feels relevant "in general".
Because if you sim your character you don't really pay attention to fight lenght and just want to know the numbers. Giving a number which is relevant in a bigger range of fight lenght is good for most people

and that's probably why it has been implemented at the start (was not a default option in raidbot back then)

[vast pond]

Well my outlaw shoulders are the legendary ones. Only have like 184 otherwise.

[faint harness]

that makes more sense

[balmy condor]

only 5 dimensional non-euclidean gamers can enter this chat

[balmy condor]

that is something we can agree on

it's the same reason why APL gains are tested against a bunch of profiles, and not just one

[tribal marlin]

But ... for what I use sim for it just basically add irrelevant iteration. If I want to know what's the best way to sync Sepsis and Vendetta over a 5mn fight, and the engine is droping like 20% of the iteration on 4mn sims, it jsut give innacuratie for nothing

[balmy condor]

the amount of times I've argued with koji about sepsis ambush

[tribal marlin]

I don't care about how it work for 4mn, I want to know for 5 see

[balmy condor]

my sims show a gain not using it, koji's show a loss

and we just go in circles

[stoic needle]

For some reason fuu's ptr sims gave different numbers from mine

[tribal marlin]

hahaha often the case with little gain

[balmy condor]

yeah, happens osh

[tribal marlin]

like the Stilleto things at the begining wich never went int oAPL

because it was most of the time neutral change

but in some wierd timing case it was like 0.5% win

[balmy condor]

yeah

[faint harness]

prob also cus stiletto is janky to play

[balmy condor]

or sepsis/vendetta lining up on short fight times for niya mastery, right miki

;)

[tribal marlin]

Well the stilleto change is a perfect example of why I don't like vary combat lenght ^^

speaking about it

because it was basically all about it

[balmy condor]

varied combat length is the reason why I don't like stiletto

[faint harness]

100% uptime required is why i dislike stiletto

[balmy condor]

well yeah that too

[tribal marlin]

At the end if you look my video on Sire I ended up lined up Sepsis and Vendetta

most of the time xD

[faint harness]

why put more punishing shit in a spec already punishing

[fleet whale]

perforated veins is truly the best sub condut

[balmy condor]

but like, you'll never see me recommending stiletto to the average player

because idfk his kill times

[fleet whale]

esp with gloomblade

[tribal marlin]

because in facts I ended up looking at Sire more like "4mn fight encounter into 3mn fight encounter"

rather than 7mn

[balmy condor]

and 10 dps for something that might work with the fight time and requires uptime

is fucking troll

[faint harness]

YEP

[tribal marlin]

I loose a cast of Sepsis tho, but it would have been a bad sepsis basically.

Basically it was 4 sepsis, but only 1 in phase 2 sync

or 3 sepsis, but all sync

I ended up chosing the 2nd option which gave more phase 3 dps

would be so nice to have Sepsis scale with Zoldyck 😦

but it's already strong cov, would just make the gap bigger with other cov

So basically 9.1 = lot of TC work I guess

I'm kinda sad for Subt tho, seems like with Assa rising it will be BFA all over again

[pulsar sluice]

I sim 6k for outlaw, around 5.8k for sin i wouldn't be surprised if my sin dmg was higher tho cuz of the variance outlaw has

[tropic ocean]

survival does high dps tho

[dark vigil]

[tribal marlin]

Again I said it thousands of time but I will reword it :
There are 2 numbers : Theorical DPS and Effective DPS. Even if you are the best player in the world, your effective dps is ALWAYS < Theorical dps

What Assa have is [Theorical - Effective] being really low. Probably the lowest of all melee spec.

[stoic needle]

i think it's the lowest in the game

[tribal marlin]

So at the end even if you play perfectly all melee spec, and if Assa is 200 dps less than other melee, you can still have assa toping the metter.

[stoic needle]

you can see it on warcraft logs, the floor for assassination dps is higher than any other spec

[tribal marlin]

Yeah and that's kind of a niche assa have

[tropic ocean]

@tribal marlin u need to get green

[tribal marlin]

green ?

[tropic ocean]

green color y

[tribal marlin]

hahaha maybe

gotta ask aethys

in french, for more chance

[tropic ocean]

bonne chance

[reef axle]

how is sin doin compared to other dps specs on ptr atm anyway?

[tropic ocean]

sub <outlaw

[tribal marlin]

really good dps assuming oshoshi sims

Yeah and that's basically all the thing : If assa is high in Theorical DPS, it basically gonna be the best melee DPS.

That does NOT mean it's the best class, remember : we have no raid value.

But at least dps wise, might be the best spec.

[tropic ocean]

will see in reality

sims are meh

sub was good in sims and see where it ended

[reef axle]

With cloak even, though others bring equal or better immunities, atleast we will have some value if we can bring the dps with some immunities now

[tropic ocean]

not really

[stoic needle]

new sim with the subtlety bug fixed

[tropic ocean]

immunity is pointless can just bring mage hunter

[stoic needle]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/29RaNifd6SY8GstUbRsKof

[tropic ocean]

suspicious sim

[stoic needle]

idk, 200 dps might be enough to make doomblade worth running on single targert

how is it suspicious

did you even look at the import

[tropic ocean]

1:1 dps that feral does

[stoic needle]

it uses t26 simcraft profiles

[tropic ocean]

did u paste smth wrong

[stoic needle]

no i didn't

[icy crater]

hmm lots of yellow not at the bottom? sus

[tropic ocean]

oh the preview is just bad

[stoic needle]

go do it yourself if you don't believe me, otherwise please don't waste my time with "suspicious sim" with no justification

[tropic ocean]

good rage 5/7

[tribal marlin]

Feral is over tuned rn

since the very begining of 9.0

in term of theorical dps at least

[tropic ocean]

and yet non relevant for raid

[pulsar sluice]

that feral bite leggo slaps

[reef axle]

Feral used to be the bottom of the dps meters on sim, now look at them lol

[tropic ocean]

it basically wont matter that doomblade is good on st as well

or dashing

[stoic needle]

well if doomblade makes sin the highest performing melee dps maybe it will

[tropic ocean]

highest performing on st

[stoic needle]

there's gotta be a point where raw dps outperforms the execute

[tropic ocean]

which is how relevant in raid atm?

[tribal marlin]

You'll need both leggo anyway if you want to play something else than Zoldyck

[stoic needle]

you can use different legends on different fights

[tropic ocean]

not sure many will switch spec for small dps difference

(and gear)

[icy crater]

wait you can switch legendaries?

[tropic ocean]

cuz zoldyck cleave will still be < outlaw

and st is only slightly better

[pulsar sluice]

I think lots of ppl would

Outlaw doesn't feel good with shit rolls

[tropic ocean]

doubt

[tribal marlin]

Assa ST is way more better than outlaw really

[tropic ocean]

ppl didnt bother to switch bote out

despite it being worse

[tribal marlin]

Outlaw have a biiiiig cap between Theorical and Effective dps

[torpid spoke]

i think so too @tribal marlin

[stoic needle]

we get people in here every day asking if it's ok to switch back to sin because they hate playing outlaw

[torpid spoke]

a lot more consistent

outlaw really depends on RNG a lot IMO

[tropic ocean]

:^)

[pulsar sluice]

also in this tier theres alot of movement, so rng plus movement means loss of dps

[torpid spoke]

like some fights I can dish out insane dps, where others it's like I hit like a wet noodle

[tribal marlin]

It's not even RNG, it's like ... basically outlaw is a high skill cap spec

[tropic ocean]

the outlaw dmg profile is not really much rng-based

[torpid spoke]

mmm... buffs play a big part

[frail fossil]

it straight up

does not

ppl are so overdramatic

[tropic ocean]

not sure how u can get to this conclusion

[frail fossil]

when the diff between rerolling and not reolling atm is like

24 dps

wow epic so much rng guys

insane

[torpid spoke]

yeah imagine not getting broadside after like 2-3 rerolls? just getting energy regen sucks

[tropic ocean]

its not rng if u play consistent

u have one occasional 2x 5 buff for big log

[torpid spoke]

like yeah you're gonna get a streak of bad luck too

[tropic ocean]

rest is pretty much +-

if your playstyle is consistent

[frail fossil]

yeah and realize it's like a 40 dps diff

[tropic ocean]

and that is actual logged fights, not sims

[frail fossil]

u can parse with 100% shit rolls

people are just so fucking overdramatic abt this it's insane

like no outlaw isn't coinflip, u get one good roll u do 10k dps and one bad and u're at the bottom

[torpid spoke]

i mean you're the one currently overdramatic about it being overdramatic

lol

[frail fossil]

if u do bad as outlaw

[tropic ocean]

think assassination blindside procs are more rng than in outlaw variance

[frail fossil]

u're playing bad

[stoic needle]

sin is the more consistent spec overall

[frail fossil]

?

[torpid spoke]

just saying ur gonna do more dps with +5 buffs than 1 too. It's not about whether or not it's bad

[stoic needle]

its easier to play and deals more damage during mechanics

[frail fossil]

ososhi did u ever play outlaw

[torpid spoke]

it's about more cosnistency too.

[stoic needle]

yes i did play outlaw

[tropic ocean]

lol

[low girder]

it's more consistent because it's easier, tl;dr

[icy crater]

1 standard deviation on outlaw sims is around 375 dps

[bleak sedge]

this

[frail fossil]

u do realize outlaw has like such weak base cd that it's strength is that it's dps stay consistent and dont go up and down

[halcyon zealot]

🍿

[bleak sedge]

assa always was way easier on mistakes than the other specs

[tropic ocean]

but how does that change the dmg profile of the spec itself

like you measure at good gameplay

not at idk what to do

[fleet whale]

does anyone know why sin's sim dps dropped by like 100 suddenly on Simc?

[stoic needle]

[frail fossil]

sin

boomer reflex spec

[tropic ocean]

how high is dps variance

[stoic needle]

you can actually fuck up as outlaw

[tropic ocean]

if you fail garrote from stealth

over ambush

on outlaw

elaborate

[hollow escarp]

oi, anybody tested if Lethal Poison conduit works if I forget it "by mistake" when I swap to outlaw?

[stoic needle]

garotte over ambush from stealth is literally like 5 dps

[tropic ocean]

read again

[bleak sedge]

i mean subterfuge garrote fail actually hits a lot no ?

[hollow escarp]

you garrote as outlaw?

[frail fossil]

yeah bro

silencing the haters

[hollow escarp]

nobody read my question, have to test it myself

[stoic needle]

godspeed

judging by CTO i wouldn't be surprised if it did

[hollow escarp]

I was about to do a +15 as sin with CTO

[hollow escarp]

[dark vigil]

[hollow escarp]

don't judge me

I never leave discords

[dark vigil]

i'm not judging you

i just want quin to play bloons

valheim

[hollow escarp]

I haven't watched Quin since he quit wow

and I hate his wow hating community

[stoic needle]

i mean in general its like if you spend 20% of the fight running around the boss like a headless chicken you're doing to do more damage during that period as sin than as outlaw

[hollow escarp]

[tropic ocean]

if I run around the boss like a headless chicken

i can do more dps as outlaw compared to sin

[stoic needle]

and there's jsut less things to screw up in general as sin

[tropic ocean]

cuz my attack range is higher

kk

[hollow escarp]

not if you don't face the boss

[stoic needle]

with cttc we don't even have to worry about snd uptime anymore

[bleak sedge]

thats a rip sub aint it? If sub cant win on ST where would it

[stoic needle]

Sub is kill

[bleak sedge]

every fckin addon man XD

[torpid spoke]

more envenoms 🙂

[frail fossil]

sub been dead since sin got 3 aura buffs

[torpid spoke]

@stoic needle would that make it so that the envenom legendary is more valuable?

[stoic needle]

yeah it does make doomblade and dashing give more dps which is why they sim so high now

but overall zoldyck is probably still better

if there's a fight where execute and cleave doesn't matter i could see doomblade or dashing being used but most of the time you'll zoldyck

[bleak sedge]

sludgefist entered the chat

[icy crater]

Honestly, it might be worth to use doomblade/dashing on prog until you get to execute then start using zold

[stoic needle]

that's not a terrible idea

[low girder]

📱 hello blizzard can i get a refund on finality?

[torpid spoke]

refund on any legendaries IMO

[bleak sedge]

im so glad i dint craft it 2 weeks ago lmao

[icy crater]

Minimal differences but if you have them why not

[stoic needle]

imagine the people who crafted akaaris

[torpid spoke]

this is me

[low girder]

that was gonna be the next one after zoldyck tbh

[balmy condor]

YIKES

[bleak sedge]

only 210 for me but it hurts

[stoic needle]

i mean doing 200 more dps pre execute is pretty solid

[torpid spoke]

yeah same only 210 its nbd

[balmy condor]

Akaari crafters are a special type of weird

[torpid spoke]

if they buffed akaris before nerf, 100% damage

HMMMMM

or was it 75. don't recall

[bleak sedge]

i mean i didnt see denathrius until 4 weeks into raid 😄

[torpid spoke]

yeah it was 100% at one point

then 50

LOL

[hollow escarp]

no lego shaming please

[balmy condor]

It also used to give combo points

[hollow escarp]

I need to sell them helm legos

[balmy condor]

And work with weaponmaster combo points

[stoic needle]

UN NERF AKAARIS

[torpid spoke]

holy fuck

that's godlike

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

Remember when you used to be able to get 12 combo points from one shadowstrike?

Yeah that was pretty cool

Just Double your Max

Makes sense

[bleak sedge]

remember when sub was cool? That was pretty Zul

[torpid spoke]

so weapon masters can proc akari's

[balmy condor]

Thanks blizz

[torpid spoke]

and akari's can proc weapon master right

[icy crater]

just respec talents so you have 10CP max

[stoic needle]

you say that sub shouldn't do 30% more dps than any other spec in the game - disagree

let us be OP

[low girder]

hey at least it'd be played again

[balmy condor]

If it was only 30% I wouldn’t have been mad

[bleak sedge]

and they wont buff sub because pvp probably lmao

fckin rework the specc already XD

[hollow escarp]

well, my guildie that crafted akaari got some 99 normal parses and then quit the game 2 weeks later into heroic prog

[low girder]

nah they could buff in pve only, they just won't

[icy crater]

Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about pvp until it comes to everyone talking about buffing rogues in pve, then blizzard cares about pvp

[bleak sedge]

Amen

[bleak sedge]

ofc they could. But imagine working XD

[low girder]

they just don't know what to do with the spec, off to make D4 rogue

[balmy condor]

It was like among the order of 80-90% stronger than anything else

[torpid spoke]

w8 a second

[bleak sedge]

imagine not just giving aura buffs and actually think about specs

[stoic needle]

[torpid spoke]

this is huge right

liek wtf

[low girder]

huge in terms of raid dmg? no

[balmy condor]

No

[bleak sedge]

lmao pvp rogue ded aswell XD

[balmy condor]

It’s not

[low girder]

in terms of necrotic wake, yes

[icy crater]

in terms of 2v2 arena at 1400, yes

[torpid spoke]

no more skukler's crit

lol

[stoic needle]

ok 80-90% is a lot

[low girder]

NW will be mage kingdom like every other dungeon as intended

[bleak sedge]

to be fair sub should indeed be the best single target specc for rogue.

[balmy condor]

Oh no, unplayable

[pliant apex]

on generals, i just throw a garrote and rup on add and keep focus on general right?

[bleak sedge]

all m+ are fire mage kingdom

[balmy condor]

Focus adds

[icy crater]

If you wipe on a boss and it has 4k hp you can blame that nerf for your wipe

[stoic needle]

no you hard swap to the add

they are very dangerous

[pliant apex]

and dont worry about having bleeds on boss when on adds?

[balmy condor]

But in pvp tho. Imagine you’re playing RMP. Now instead of being a stunbot for the mage, youre, oh wait a minute

[bleak sedge]

playing rogues causes depression

[stoic needle]

shouldn't be hard to keep up bleeds on both

[bleak sedge]

swapping to fury warri

[balmy condor]

We had a ret pally in our guild, wasn’t great at it, he said “yo I’ll go warrior, I won’t be better at the game but at least I’ll bring a buff and whispyr can tell me to shout every now and then”

[bleak sedge]

Yeah also warri actually has solid aoe with pressing 1 button more

meanwhile multitarget dotting still feels like shit

[icy crater]

first raid with new guild this week pog, I'm the only yellow in the raid

[balmy condor]

we have 3

and 2 of them are outlaw

and the sin rogue is on top

[bleak sedge]

Im raiding with 3 sins 😂

[balmy condor]

[bleak sedge]

Most of the time we're in top 5

[balmy condor]

that's what I'm talking bout

[bleak sedge]

In our advanced hc raid i drop to around 11th though it's insane

[fleet whale]

So does anyone know why sin’s sims dropped by like 100 dps on simc?

[dark hollow]

i really want to feel differently but it's really clunky and quickly not fun 😭

[balmy condor]

depends in what timeframe

are we talking very recently?

as in like

the last 18 hours?

or are we talking like 5 days ago

[bleak sedge]

Council is a pain tbh. At hunter it feels good but any more that 3 or 2 with adds spawning and it feels like shit. Which is why i hate m+ on sin

[dark vigil]

biggest issue with simulationcraft is that its using kyrian for sin

which is like 200 dps lower than niya

[bleak sedge]

Inerva is a pain aswell since i want to dot her and both adds but the small add needs to die fast so i can't

[balmy condor]

you mean on default profiles?

[dark vigil]

yes on the default profile

[balmy condor]

who gives a fuck about default profiles

[dark vigil]

isnt that what he said

oh

he said simc

[balmy condor]

that's the same thing

[dark vigil]

context is different

simc usually means gonna sim yourself

[balmy condor]

[dark vigil]

simulationcraft site thought he meant that the default had dropped

but i misread

[balmy condor]

I mean, the defaults dropping on the site from one day to the next would be.... the same thing?

[dark vigil]

no because then what i said would matter

[balmy condor]

default profiles being stupid has nothing to do with profiles dropping

[dark vigil]

because the default is uisng kyrian which is like 200 less than niya

yea

[bleak sedge]

Anyways ill cry myself to sleep just like at any raid day see ya tomorrow

[dark vigil]

but based on the context of what he said he meant as in his own personal sims had dropped

[balmy condor]

night night

[icy crater]

the ppl in my discord channel when deathcore gets played on groovy

[balmy condor]

I have a collection

:)

[icy crater]

I dig the last one because its the most versatile

[balmy condor]

it's true

[icy crater]

What if our mastery was execute damage

and zold wasn't in the game

[dark vigil]

that would be very interesting

do you mean like mastery being like

"below 30% your damage is increased by x%"

[icy crater]

yea

not even blanket damage %

Like poinsons and bleeds or nature damage or something

maybe make the env buff really sick

[marble bear]

are tanks selling exp runs like they did for free hold XD

I hate...leveling

I hate it

[balmy condor]

I think some boost communities are doing like 40-50k per normal dungeon

but uh

that'll get expensive real fast

[faint harness]

Doing dungeons and solo queue is surprisingly fast in sl

So buying a boost would be a waste, you just level by playing the game this way

[balmy condor]

yeh

[stark heart]

[tribal marlin]

https://i.imgur.com/F9YTEkW.png

mmmh

I feel trolled when I read this

and I'm usually on Blizzard side

[stoic needle]

[stark heart]

How to not answer the question but make it look like you did

[stoic needle]

Always Show Me 🔲

89% garotte uptime

[icy crater]

ayy

[kindred crescent]

Wow they nerfed MA Lego for 9.0.5

[rigid wyvern]

really?

[limber lion]

https://gyazo.com/b090fa1f58ec368441c003f6fe01f8d4
Oh no boys 😢

RL just dm'd me on Discord

[balmy condor]

more like a fix

[icy crater]

srry i only got assa legos, I can make my outlaw ones but it will be 3 weeks

and hopefully you kill by then

[stoic needle]

tell him that assassination's execute is better for the adds

[dark vigil]

tell him outlaw is for big fat pussies

[kindred crescent]

@balmy condor if trinkets and other effects like soulbinds and covenant abilities aren't going to crit

Seems like a big nerf

[dark vigil]

and a raid leader who wants outlaw instead of sin likes to watch his wife get fucked

ok maybe thats too far

[balmy condor]

what are you talking about man

[faint harness]

[balmy condor]

it's literally just trinkets and NW tools

[faint harness]

Shields that needs burst dmg, assassination isnt exactly what pops into my head

Aoe burst

[rigid wyvern]

no not NW nerfs ;-;

how else am i supposed to look op

[carmine dawn]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[stoic needle]

wdym, exsang is giga burst

[faint harness]

If exsang had an aoe version maybe

[dark vigil]

i mean when the adds in mythic slg drop to 30% they enrage

perfect

[faint harness]

You forgot the part about having 4 seconds to kill the shield or something

[gray fjord]

@balmy condor Yo Whispyr, question for you.

[drifting cosmos]

How did they nerf MA Lego?

[gray fjord]

Only affects rogue abilities/auto attacks now

No trinkets/weapons in NW

[balmy condor]

Yo zera, answer for you

[gray fjord]

Not on live yet though, PTR stuff

I need help

Is this thumbnail sus enough?

[drifting cosmos]

Oh I see thanks

[icy crater]

what in the ever living sweet fuck is that

[gray fjord]

XDDD

[faint harness]

Wtf is that

[frail fossil]

yo why u leaking next infexious video

[tough wren]

the most skipable vid ever i guess

[faint harness]

Did you ask infexious for help

[gray fjord]

The most beautiful thumbnail ever designed

[faint harness]

You just need a selfie with open mouth

And its done

[balmy condor]

perfect

[carmine dawn]

if i dont feel like running sims should i go haste or crit on leggo?

[faint harness]

Btw when can we sim flag changes?

[balmy condor]

both

[gray fjord]

Damn I knew I forgot something, @faint harness . (It's a gag in a video though, yes. Don't worry I'm not insane enough to make a thumbnail like that.

[faint harness]

Cus i have seen mystler sims

[carmine dawn]

no vers?

[balmy condor]

haste always, then crit or vers

so haste crit

guchi

[faint harness]

I know dude! Ur one of the good guys of youtube

[sudden brook]

did u guys get a sim for flag yet

[balmy condor]

haste vers, also guchi

I haven't seen anything

[sudden brook]

outlaw wins again then

[balmy condor]

but push says mystler sims?

[sudden brook]

curious how good venthyr would be for vendetta

theres mysler sims for outlaw

[icy crater]

mr guy pinned a lovely image in the outlaw channel

[sudden brook]

not for sin ig

[gray fjord]

Guy with the facts

[dark vigil]

@gray fjord need to add something about rogues scaling

[stoic needle]

i haven't done it yet i'm doing keys

[dark vigil]

on the image

[balmy condor]

time to sim I guess

[stoic needle]

@gray fjord please include this img

[icy crater]

work done in 15, then time to go home and run laps in oribos pog

[dark vigil]

work done in 1 hr 15 for me

but im just binging the queens gambit

1 more ep left

[balmy condor]

@surreal torrent bruh

[icy crater]

LOL

[faint harness]

Wait

So he implemented it

And only did outlaw

[balmy condor]

idk, I guess

[faint harness]

Abandoned sub already

[balmy condor]

I'm rebuilding my code

hold on

[stoic needle]

flrgrrlation

[icy crater]

flrgrrlrtion

[balmy condor]

timestamp says about 7 hours ago

[faint harness]

Alright

[stoic needle]

what is this outlaw favoritism

[faint harness]

I assume its not optimized in apl

For any spec

Or do you just use the old flag

[balmy condor]

I mean, I'm not sure how much gain any optimization at all would be

if anything there might be vendetta sync or something

but it's basically just a press every 1:30 and let it rip

[stoic needle]

Yeah

[faint harness]

Well for instance going to 5cps before using it should be a good thing, logically

[balmy condor]

yeah I'm unsure if that's actually like a serious gain

but we'll know

let me work

[faint harness]

Oi i am not stopping you

Patient lil frog

Here

[balmy condor]

:P

[strange python]

waking up when its dark out

[carmine dawn]

does sin ever ambush from stealth? save vanish to refresh empowered garrote right?

[onyx anvil]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[dark vigil]

no

only use ambush with blindside procs

otherwise its a dead ability

[sudden brook]

the only optimization for flag would be to sync with vendetta

wouldnt it

[dark vigil]

pro

b

[strange python]

Assassination has to have dual daggers, right?

[rare blaze]

Correct!

[strange python]

Darn it. Just got a nice mace for leveling. lol.

[limber lion]

I just sim'd my character 6 times each for both Outlaw and Assa and my Assa sims higher on every type of iteration that I did. Similar gear, except 235 Zoldyck vs 190 Celerity.

My RL will surely let me play Assa now. Right? :--)

[stark heart]

you should on Deny M

[limber lion]

Yeah, he was asking for SLG. There's only 2 assa sims and plenty of Outlaw's so he wasn't sure if he'll let me keep playing Assa or switch lol

[stark heart]

okay wtf

when I apply Flag with conduit it gives me 5 stacks of haste

then target dies and I have 15

???

no cp spent btw

[faint harness]

Sounds good

[stark heart]

also it gives 4 additional haste stacks with a delay

don't think it matters since it triggers GCD but still

wait so it's not +2 without conduit, it triples my stacks when target dies?

????

[dark vigil]

no idea

would wait for it to go live

[faint harness]

Probably intended

To guard against heavy misplay

[stark heart]

yeah well nothing in tooltip/blue suggests that

so I press X

[faint harness]

Tooltips are showing the full details

Never

Sec tech is a winning example

[balmy condor]

boy's we're looking gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood

[safe pendant]

Go on

[balmy condor]

new pin inc