assassination

[balmy condor]

it's so much worse than I thought

[fleet whale]

this isn't the spring of 2019 anymore

[stoic needle]

Rogue is one of the few classes where dungeon Slice is actually good

[balmy condor]

you know, I guess I shouldn't be surprised

that someone who doesn't understand how sims work

would just bash sims constantly

[dark vigil]

[fleet whale]

IF two leggos ever become a thing in SL and that's a big if....
i'm running doomblade/zold

[dark vigil]

2 leggos are high probability at some point yea

[fleet whale]

it's possible but they didn't mention it at all at blizzcon

[dark vigil]

in one of the interviews they talked about it

sec

[fleet whale]

they brought up tier sets in the future but i didnt' see anything about two leggos, but i guess i may have missed it

[stoic needle]

Translation: "yes but we don't want to commit just in case"

[fleet whale]

or it could be something else

[dark vigil]

yea

was jsut about to post that

[fleet whale]

wouldn't consider two leggos to be "exciting ideas"

[dark vigil]

i mean with what they did in legion, its most likely gonna be a thing and its pretty "easy" for them so to speak

just balancing

[stoic needle]

I would

[balmy condor]

but if we get 2 legendaries at once how will we ever know what 2 to equip

when all the sims are just wrong

[dark vigil]

two leggos is exciting

[stoic needle]

Doomblade+zold sounds like fun

[fleet whale]

not really when it's already been done before

[dark vigil]

esp with some specs where they interact with eachother

[stoic needle]

Big dick enveni + execute

[dark vigil]

like blood dk has some nutty legendary interactions

frost mage has like 2 frozen orb legendaries

[fleet whale]

assassination sustained would be insane with either doomblade/dashing, or doomblade/zold

[stoic needle]

Bet they'll make it so that you can either equip 2 legendaries or super charge 1

Imagine like 60% zold

[dark vigil]

yueah maybe

some shit like that

if i were a betting man i'd bet that they'll add 2 leggos at some point in some fashion

maybe not exactly as "equip 2 leggos" but something like that

[halcyon grail]

I heard 'we plan to break the last tier of the expansion with stupid borrowed power. Stay tuned.'

[balmy condor]

sometimes when I sit in a room by myself I hear voices

[stoic needle]

[dark vigil]

also from how they mentioned how sanctum of domination loot will work

makes me eerily think it'll be something like corruption

let me see if i can find the exact quote

[halcyon grail]

Anima powers outside torghast. Fuuuuuuuuu

[stoic needle]

Ok yes pleased

[dark vigil]

yeah idk which interview it was

i cant find it

but they mentioned something about how the loot from sanctum of domination will have unique power

[fleet whale]

that doesn't mean corruption though necessarily

[dark vigil]

it doesn't

but it makes me afraid

but honestly, with how well theyve done with shadowlands i think even if they brought something back like corruption it probably would be good

the idea for corruption at end of bfa was good but accessibility and implementation was bad

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[stoic needle]

I think it's gonna be more along the lines of poxstorm

And unique trinkets

I hope they have something like the mechagon rings again

[dark vigil]

all our trinkets are pretty boring yeah

skulker and iqd are prob the "coolest" lol

well as far as actually good ones anywyas

[stoic needle]

Casters and strength classes get all the cool shit

[dark vigil]

the tank ones are kinda cool

[stoic needle]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=180117/empyreal-ordnance?bonus=6805:1472

[dark vigil]

but with how strong pvp gearing is..

[balmy condor]

isn't that literally everyone except feral, ww, and rogues

[dark vigil]

yeah

emp ord is rly good

[stoic needle]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=184021/glyph-of-assimilation?bonus=6805

[dark vigil]

i dont think glyph is used as much

emp ord is def really good though

[stoic needle]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=184028/cabalists-hymnal?bonus=6805

[dark vigil]

cabalist hym is kinda clunky is it not? ive never used it but only heard

[stoic needle]

It's not so much about the tuning, just the mechanic behind it

[dark vigil]

ah yea

then yea

[stoic needle]

These are all cool as shit

We get

Phial

[dark vigil]

harder to make cooler stuff for melee cause we're on top of the boss

i guess

idk

[stoic needle]

I call bullshit

[dark vigil]

yeah i call bullshit too cause tanks get cool stuff

like the uhh

cheat death

from sun king

[stoic needle]

For some reason the agi classes got all the boring trinkets

https://www.wowhead.com/item=184023/gluttonous-spike?bonus=6805

[dark vigil]

spike is cool

[stoic needle]

It's just annoying that like 2 of our trinkets are basically the same thing(Phial and flayedwing)

[lean geyser]

so hows sin finally with all buffs?

[dark vigil]

good

[balmy condor]

around sub level

worse than outlaw

will be better in 9.0.5 probably

[dark vigil]

i think he means including 9.0.5

but idk

assuming

[lean geyser]

looks like venthry getting reworked would it be good for sin?

[balmy condor]

depends entirely on tuning

[stoic needle]

I wish blizzard would hurry up and fix it so I can sim

[balmy condor]

just build simc and implement it yourself

[stoic needle]

Honestly I wish I'd gone to college for compsci so I could do that kind of thing myself

[bleak sedge]

Jesus my sub sims 800 dps above my assa XD seems like im missing a ton of haste

[dark vigil]

oh yeah

haste is very very valuable

for us

[bleak sedge]

guess ill need to get some assa gear

[lean fossil]

so ive been on a fishing trip but i saw a thing on fb about tier sets, are we finally getting those back?

[lean geyser]

anyone know the best lego for sin in pvp

[bleak sedge]

Yeah they said tsets come back. But they don't know when yet

[balmy condor]

ma

[lean fossil]

thanks

[lean geyser]

mark of master assassion?

[bleak sedge]

So probably not in the next raid tier. Maybe 9.2 or 3

[dark vigil]

@lean geyser prob mark of master assassin for the burst

but in sustained fights prob doomblade

thats what i've heard

but i don't really pvp.

so take that with a grain of salt

at some point in this xpac i think i wanna settle down and go hard at pvp

[bleak sedge]

Its a burst meta in pvp so MA is stronger

[dark vigil]

it is, but i think when u get to high ranks its less of that, at least for 3s

from what i've witnessed

so doomblade might be better there but that's kind of niche and doesnt apply to 99% of pvpers

[lean geyser]

so doomblade you think?

[dark vigil]

im surprised ma hasnt been nerfed

no

go ma

[bleak sedge]

because blizz is unable to balance pvp 😄

[dark vigil]

anyone know where you can see which potencies will drop from CN in 9.0.5

all i see is that they will drop but not what does and someone in here was talking about specific ones at one point but idk if that was on ptr or just speculation

[stoic needle]

Doomblade is good for 3s and thAts about it yeah

I guess RBGs sometimes if you're in a teamfight

[icy crater]

If you’re in a team fight as assa in rbgs you’re either trolling or genuinely don’t give a fuck about winning tbh

[stoic needle]

sin is actually decent in teamfights in rbgs

[bleak sedge]

rogues are good for nuking their healers

[stoic needle]

you just kinda walk up to someone and kidney them and they die if your team focuses them too

you're basically just a worse warrior

[icy crater]

So a useless sub rogue

The damage on assa isn’t even remotely comparable to other melees and it’s control not even close to as good as sub so like

[deft vault]

MA is not the play in 3s for assas

[arctic brook]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[gleaming eagle]

sin is actually better than sub in out of stealth fight

[eternal portal]

Anybody knows if pelagos combat meditation trait is counted on raidbots as fully extended all the time in sims? Like if you walk over every orb every time?

[balmy condor]

yes

shadowlands.combat_meditation_extend_chance

from 0 to 1

where 1 is always extend

0 is no extend

0.5 is half extend, etc

defaults to 1

[eternal portal]

Wow, that was fast :) ty pelagos is simming 15 dps more than kleia for me but i dont know if i can catch every orb in m+ or myth raid everytime, running with kleia just now with the stacking crit trait

[balmy condor]

Yeah that’s fine

[languid totem]

Raidbots is simming with the current legendary values right?

[spice spire]

Yes

[languid totem]

I think it's overvaluing mutilated flesh from the legendary then.

In game, i'm seeing it do 30% of only my MH hit but raidbots has it at as 30% of MH+OH.

In game: Mutilate hits for 1091/546 and flesh hits for 114/114/114 = 30% of 1140
Raidbots shows Mutilate 117,554 - OH 58,189 - Mutilated flesh 52,020 = 30% of 173,400 (sum of MH+OH would be 175,743)

Patchwerk sim, single boss.

[stoic needle]

damn, you're right

@fleet anchor can you take a look at the way the doomblade dot's damage is being calculated in simc?

[sleek otter]

Even though it is a wipe, can someone help me out with dps

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JpyqbhnZkfCgVKGH/#fight=7

Im not sure how I can improve honestly, theres so much stuff going on

[fleet anchor]

I would need some logs of this

Definitely doesn't match my beta testing at all, even right before launch

Both Mutilate hits always contributed towards the DoT

[fleet whale]

does maim mangle increase doomblade dot damage?

[sleek otter]

It does

but dps increase isnt worth

[fleet whale]

with buffed doomblade in 9.0.5 it could maybeee be ok for a second potency assuming your tree allows it

[fleet anchor]

But yeah if you have logs I can take a look. Wouldn't exactly shock me if they broke something.

[stoic needle]

I'm gonna test it right now

[fleet anchor]

I mean they originally hacked in a change to the tooltip to deal with the fact that both hits proc'd it (thus immediately refreshed the DoT)

Description : Mutilate deals an additional $s1% Bleed damage over ${$340431d+2} sec.

So at least on beta it immediately pandemic'd itself

Because of the double hit

The base duration is only 6s

Double refreshed to 8s because of pandemic on the 2nd Mutilate hit

[languid totem]

I'm testing it now, OH definitely impacts something because the numbers don't add up. I'm guessing, based off of your comment there, that a portion of either the first or second hit get's ignored as pandemic is capped at 25%? of the initial hit.

[stark heart]

Do you hit raiding dummy?

[languid totem]

MH/OH both non crit, hit 732/364=1096 total. Expected tick of MH only=73.2, expected of total = 109.6, seeing 77 ticks,

[fleet anchor]

Pandemic only affects the duration but since it's an ignite-style residual DoT

[languid totem]

MH non crit OH crits, 747/707=1454 total. Expected tick if MH only = 74.7, expected of total=145.4. seeing 101 ticks

[fleet anchor]

the damage should get accumulated correctly

At least it did last I tested

But like I said, it wouldn't really shock me if something got broken

[balmy condor]

But like, logs?

[languid totem]

Where should I upload?

[balmy condor]

Just upload a log and send it

[stoic needle]

Should I do just one mutilate hit or several

[balmy condor]

Do a bunch

[fleet anchor]

I would do some isolated

And some with refreshing

[balmy condor]

Yeh

[fleet anchor]

Try not to use any other buffs or debuffs though

makes it harder

[stoic needle]

Fucking Niya mastery lol

I already went and bought unenchanted daggeds

[stark heart]

Wish someone would sell me some base items for legos on ptr

[minor salmon]

In the icy veins guide under opener ambush is not used, is it not worth outside of procs?

[balmy condor]

Correct

[minor salmon]

Tyty

[stoic needle]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/daMwG3Lt9zmyWKQg/

cleave and swarm training dummies are just single muts

and the training dummy section is a few muts in a row to refresh

hmm it didn't pick up the dot damage in the single muts

[languid totem]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NHFz4RgYy9nBXMwK/#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=7

First 5 or so mutilates were single, then spamming mutilate to stack and using mutilate to refresh after 1 tick of the dot

[stoic needle]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aHnFNzQ2GXPJgTvC/

[fleet whale]

i'm starting to feel bad that i burned over 3k ash on MA lol

it was for pvp mainly but now i'm wishing I used it for doomblade

[keen remnant]

why I'm about to burn 4k

ah

[fleet anchor]

MA still great for solo play

[fleet whale]

i mean part of it was so i could switch over to the other two specs kind of if i wanted

i already have r4 zold

[keen remnant]

I'm doing MA to play others too

[fleet whale]

but my next leggo is def doomblade

[sleek otter]

I have both I think MA is better for 2s

more potential to 100-0 atm

[keen remnant]

raid and m+ MA is close to zold?

[fleet whale]

zold overall is better imo

esp for raid

but, some people have gotten good logs with MA

[sleek otter]

Zold is def best, behind is dashing, behind is Doomblade behind that is MA\

[keen remnant]

but they're changing MA to just auto attacks iirc

[fleet whale]

nah, they're changing it to not work on trinkets

and oils etc rogue abilities will still crit

[sleek otter]

Would be useless if it only works on AA

[fleet whale]

they are essentially making it function like the MA talent where it only gives you crit on rogue stuff

[sleek otter]

but sub rogues going brr vanish shadowstrike skulkers are not gonna happen anymore

[stark heart]

yeah MH consistently gives like 31.5% but why it's so skewed from 30%

[keen remnant]

hmm

[fleet anchor]

So I think the problem here

Is that it's not refreshing back up for the "4th" tick

Like it used to

But it's quite odd

[stark heart]

over 8 seconds
3 seconds ticks

[fleet anchor]

The 8s was always a tooltip hax

Due to the pandemic

But yeah hard to even start to know how to approach this breakage

I'll put in a bug report for it at least

[languid totem]

If you mean 4 ticks of the same amount on the single mutilates, it still seems off by about 5-10%. Example, 4th mutilate hitting 663/647* ticking for 91, 4 ticks would be 364 total damage instead of 393 expected of (663+647)*.3

Btw, I also tested on PTR and it appears to function the same as on live except with a 45% modifier.

[stark heart]

it's definitely takes oh into account, I just had MH non crit and OH crit, and combined dot don't give ~45% of MH damage

so it's some weird way of it losing a tick

and it just happens to appear as taking only MH

[languid totem]

Yeah. I noticed that as well when I got OH crit (full verse/haste/mast so it took awhile)

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I think it's losing a tick or calculating the residual duration incorrectly

[stark heart]

it's kinda weird since baseline it's supposed to have 2 ticks

so it gives 3 due to pandemic while 3rd, ideally, should be a bit weaker since total duration is 6*1.3=7.8

[languid totem]

So something else, is SBS supposed to increase envenom damage when using doomblade? Because it doesn't seem like it is either.

[fleet anchor]

I presume not but Blizzard has been inconsistent about this

[halcyon panther]

what are the best talents for pvp?

[placid dawn]

is it worth to multidot for resources on council?

[stark heart]

@fleet anchor iirc muti is coded as 2 separate damage hits, should I be able to get only one parried from front?

[fleet anchor]

hmm

[stark heart]

it's like non damage driver with energy cost and 2cp gain then 2 hits with no innate cp gain but may proc seal fate

[fleet anchor]

The OH ability is proc'd from the MH ability

[stark heart]

if I remember correctly

[fleet anchor]

But the OH ability has no flag to avoid being parried

So I presume it's possible

Seem to remember it's happened in the past

Remember noticing it in Antorus

[stark heart]

I always get parried when I don't need in raid but when I do need dummy doesn't wanna do it

[fleet anchor]

Anyway I've documented it with a bug report. We'll see if they take a look.
https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/812

My notes on the older bug do seem to indicate it used to tick 4 times anyway after they fixed it

(Before they re-tuned it)

commented on Sep 18, 2020
In testing, damage was correctly done as 20% of the MH+OH hit spread over 4 ticks.

So something has gone wrong with it at some point

[high wagon]

what gem do we use? one agility and then next best stat gems?

[balmy condor]

sim it

[high wagon]

just dont see the agility gems as an option unless im blind

jk blind just go to show all

[stark heart]

@fleet anchor I just had 2 ticks on Mutilated Flesh because first one got parried

[stark heart]

[balmy condor]

FUN INTERACTIONS AM I RITE BOIS

[stark heart]

2 ticks damage fits neither OH nor MH damage tho

[pseudo aspen]

with doomblade looking juicy post buff will maim and mangle conduit gain value?

[balmy condor]

yeh but probably not enough I would think

[fleet anchor]

I assume the number of ticks vs the tick rate screws with the ignite calculations

So it's probably mega messed up in strange ways

[stark heart]

well given that it applied only 6 seconds dot tell me one of the hands applications got parried

[trim zinc]

so rip zoldick?? ;;-;

[stark heart]

but it doesn't fit any of them

like ????

[balmy condor]

we still go zold

[fleet anchor]

That's hilarious that the application itself got parried

I didn't even know that was possible with DoTs

[stark heart]

yeah it's bleed mechanic, how can that get parried

[fleet anchor]

I'll add that to the bug report lol

[stark heart]

also I couldn't make mutilate to partially parry

I had several parries but it negated ability entirely

it seemed like driver was parried and thus no mh/oh damage spells were triggered afterwards

[fleet anchor]

Yeah if the MH is parried I don't think it's possible for the OH to trigger at all

[stark heart]

I am trying to test armour double dip because it's suspiciously fits 0.7 multiplier

but 60/62 dummies give me the same ratio, I dunno how much/less armour they have compared to 63 one

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I mean when I looked at the number, assuming it was supposed to tick 4 times

it put the existing damage at like 4.25 or something

Was a little odd

But I'm not sure it's worth putting too much brainpower into since it's just obviously busted so they'll probably need to disassemble it anyway lol

[stark heart]

wait, bfa dummies are scaled to 60 level?

[fleet anchor]

Everyone knows we will be using 123% AP Bloodfang anyway 🤣

With these two bugs I feel like I'm being teleported back to August

Just repeating all the same bugs that Rogue legendaries had in mid-beta before the bugs got fixed. It's bizzare 🤣

[stark heart]

life of an abandoned class

yeah I am getting different ratio on level 50 rare

well not even rare, just some quest target in bfa

[fleet anchor]

Well, scaling/residual abilities are all kinds of fucked up in scaling leveling zones so that's hard to say

That's been the case on a bunch of Havoc residuals since Legion

[tight ravine]

the rotten or zolk! I don't know!!

[viral sand]

Anyone know with the reqork top venthyr if itll be any good?

[balmy condor]

it seems okay

[sinful cradle]

We dont know yet

[balmy condor]

but yeh

we don't have implementation

and it's bugged in game

so

[jagged yoke]

hows assassination guys in SL? i remmeber it was supposed to be pretty bad on launch and iv just come back

[balmy condor]

Compared to most classes, not great

Within rogues, it’s meh

It’ll be arguably toe to toe with outlaw in 9.0.5

But rogue in general is still in a bad spot

So that’s not really saying much

[jagged yoke]

hm ok is it looking a fair bit better in 9.0.5 though

[balmy condor]

yes

we got 3 buffs up to now, 5%, 8%, 5%

and the changes in 9.0.5 are a buff too

[jagged yoke]

ah sweet

hows the spec feel compared to bfa? or other rogues

[slender berry]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[balmy condor]

tempo wise it's similar to eternal palace

the loss shrouded suffocation and echoing hurts in m+

but in raids it feels fine

blindside is good

[jagged yoke]

ah ok yeh i saw blindside seems pretty cool

thanks a lot for the info

[cosmic trail]

So uhh whats cut to the chase? I kinda just started at the beginning of SL so not sure what is it

[tender fjord]

Passive that will most likely need to not press SnD more than once per fight

Lead*

[balmy condor]

when you envenom with slice up, it gives you slice time

3 sec per cp currently

so you finish with a 4cp envenom, you get 12 seconds of slice

[cosmic trail]

So as long as I keep envenoming it keeps refreshing the snd timer?

[balmy condor]

yep

[cosmic trail]

Gotcha okay. that seems pretty nice

[ornate jetty]

if they just add crimson tempest to venomous wounds

[balmy condor]

then what

we would take CT single target for the energy?

[ornate jetty]

smoother m+ kek

[balmy condor]

we're already drowning in energy in m+

[ornate jetty]

XD

[lapis warren]

not simple spec enough yet

aparently

[balmy condor]

if >3 enemies, energy = endless

ez solution

[lapis warren]

rupture everything!

If it dies no problem you get energy

[balmy condor]

we already do!

[lapis warren]

I know

[balmy condor]

CT venomous wound people are a different breed tbh

[ornate jetty]

i also wish FoK works like Shuriken Storm, no of target = no of combo points gained XD

[lapis warren]

It gains CP off crits

[balmy condor]

I think fok should be 2 baseline

[ornate jetty]

true that

[balmy condor]

but I don't agree with removing seal fate interaction

that's a little extreme

[lapis warren]

2 cp baseline?

[stoic needle]

Garotte also 2 baseline

[lapis warren]

Then i might as well not use backstab on sub

[balmy condor]

yeh fok 2cp baseline and garrote 2cp baseline

and basically every problem under the sun would be done and dusted

right there

[lapis warren]

hmmmmm....

Dunno just randomly going around and buffing things isn't a clear solution

[stoic needle]

I mean it's not random

[balmy condor]

it's specifically targeted

for the parts that suck

it's not the damage really

it's not the speed either

[stoic needle]

The damage is fine

[lapis warren]

But you're gonna buff things that suck so that things that are average suck so you don't press them?

[stoic needle]

I think ct should be baseline on top of that but that's a different area

[lapis warren]

It's random to me as you're not looking at the whole picture

[stoic needle]

?

[ornate jetty]

going back from BfA, i wondered why they didnt include shrouded suffocation in subterfuge going to SL

[stoic needle]

What would we not press if garotte and fok gave 2cp baseline

[ornate jetty]

god i miss that thing

[balmy condor]

I'm honestly lost

what would break

if garrote and fok gave 2 cp

[lapis warren]

Well you said FoK baseline right?

So all specs?

[balmy condor]

what?

[ornate jetty]

nono

[balmy condor]

we're talking about sin

are you high

[ornate jetty]

he meant fok baseline gives 1cp

[lapis warren]

I know what he ment

[balmy condor]

sub and outlaw don't even have fok

[lapis warren]

But you're about as clear as some patch notes

[balmy condor]

okay

FAN OF KNIVES

the assassination ability

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

you spin in a circle yeh

aoe

physical damage

that ability gives 1 combo point baseline

change the 1

to a 2

[lapis warren]

My bad for some reason my mind still thinks both are the same >.> <.< sometimes

Shuriken storm and fok that is

[balmy condor]

yeh who cares bout dead spec sub tho

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

we ride this rocket to the moon

[icy crater]

The moon is a fuel stop

[stoic needle]

I need to make an edit of that gif with sub on the coffin

[balmy condor]

realistically, if sub continues to commit toaster bath for the rest of the expansion

that's just one less channel for me to patrol

[cosmic trail]

@balmy condor how do you drown in m+ bc I dont

https://tenor.com/view/among-us-impostor-kms-over-gif-18557102

[balmy condor]

you garrote 4 times from stealth and then never worry about energy again

[stoic needle]

If it moves

It bleeds

It's really that simple

[balmy condor]

like it takes maybe 5-6 seconds

to get everything out

but you gar gar gar gar CT mfd rup

and you never have energy problems again

[lapis warren]

TBH best to just remove everything but assassination you don't even have to care about class balance

[balmy condor]

if you're super impatient you could gar gar gar gar rup

that's cool too

u live your best life

[balmy condor]

now we're talking

[stoic needle]

I usually MFD SnD before pull so my MFD isn't up.. I think I use snd too much

[balmy condor]

I don't use it enough

I envenom when things get low, and I snd in packs of like 3

and that's really it

everything else is bleed stonks

[lapis warren]

I don't get why they wouldn't make dispatch (OR WELL is is AMBUSH now) baseline though, quite enjoyed that back in the day

[balmy condor]

it is baseline

[stoic needle]

It's just shit

[balmy condor]

blindside is the part that isn't

[lapis warren]

the talent i mean

[median mango]

How important is it to envenom in aoe for the venom buff on fok spam btw? I feel like I may be rupturing too much. 😄

Since we already talk about using too many things

[lapis warren]

Wouldn't that make it a more engaging rotation rather than the SnD everyone complains

[balmy condor]

very little

[stoic needle]

You pretty much never use envenom in aoe

[median mango]

Perfect

😄

[balmy condor]

on 6 you actually just CT over an envenom

might be 5

I can't count in aoe anyways

just ook ook if many mob me hit CT a lot

[hollow escarp]

I do the same when I see too many stacking nameplates

[balmy condor]

sin is a brain dead spec

[median mango]

Haha yes that's what I've been doing. Me smart me hit buttons you guys say here

[hollow escarp]

and I panic because I can't find the target I'm supposed to kick

[median mango]

Big key stonks

[balmy condor]

perfect for a brain dead gamer like me

like you can't fuck up sin

[hollow escarp]

how dare you say sin is a brain dead spec? I'm an intellectual gamer

[balmy condor]

if you garrote from stealth, maintain ruptures enough to feed your energy

and then hit CT

you're like done

that's it

[hollow escarp]

btw bois, I'm 5/8 for KSM with sin

[balmy condor]

I haven't pushed keys because we need to gear a guildie's tank

sadge

[cosmic trail]

I finally got 200 ilvl. Thank the heavens for pvp

[balmy condor]

I'm also 5/8 though

kojack trying to race me to KSM

[lapis warren]

I don't personally feel like sub is too hard either in pve

[balmy condor]

[stoic needle]

Sub is even more braindead

[hollow escarp]

need MISTS, SD and Necrotic Wake

[stoic needle]

Ook ook ss bp

[balmy condor]

I need PF hoa and spires

[median mango]

You say that and then there is me, wondering how my last sire kill was "only" a sixty parse and then I realised that used Shiv like maybe 14 times over 9 minutes.
It's like I want to line up CDs but sin just works like see button press button

[hollow escarp]

ngl, I'd argue that I need to focus more in M+ as sin than outlaw

[lapis warren]

AoE is just shuriken + black powder

[balmy condor]

yeh literally just hit everything on cooldown

[stoic needle]

I don't have any 15s cus I can't get any invites

[balmy condor]

multidotting is where we turn brain on

[cosmic trail]

Do yall spam CT and fan of knives in aoe situations in m+ pretty much?

[hollow escarp]

rank 2 fucking Zerocool with his 2000 rio

[lapis warren]

Shiv is basically your symbols of death

[hollow escarp]

but on gcd

[balmy condor]

get out ruptures as you need to, maintain CT, envenom if there's prio or not a lot of targets, otherwise hit CT again

[balmy condor]

if only

[lapis warren]

Yeh but on GCD

It's your CD you try to line up basically with shit

[stoic needle]

I might have the beginnings of a m+ squad but we'll see

[balmy condor]

shiv is like symbol's little brother with a learning deficiency that you have to drag along to social events even though he has no place being there

[hollow escarp]

my guild has a lot of people that like M+

so it's a bit easier for me to do keys now

[cosmic trail]

with the buffs in 9.0.5 will doomblade be good in ST?

[balmy condor]

yes, and it already is

but you still take zold because it's zold

[stoic needle]

Imagine having a guild

[balmy condor]

don't have to imagine if you're the guild lead

[cosmic trail]

I dont have zold crafted yet

[balmy condor]

[hollow escarp]

I'm 2/10 M for 4 weeks now

[stoic needle]

I'm a ronin

I walk my path alone

[median mango]

Man I had no guild for like half of legion and all of BFA, made me stop playing so many times but having a guild is just fun. 😄

[stoic needle]

I almost got into a 6/10m guild

But I don't have enough mythic experience

[valid plaza]

Any macros for Sin you guys recommend?

[balmy condor]

just a tricks macro

[median mango]

My main tank just asked me what weak auras are and if he can use them to make his buffs bigger. 😂

[hollow escarp]

all the 6/10 M guilds on my realm have established rogues or even officers that play rogue

[balmy condor]

you can also get a macro for like mouseovers for your dots

[hollow escarp]

so

[balmy condor]

that's a thing

but imo that shit really sucks

cause then you just rupture random stuff all the time

[hollow escarp]

I tried MFD , gouge and kick on mouseover, I hate that

I'd rather tab target

[stoic needle]

Yeah I had mouseovers on my dots and I turned them off

[hollow escarp]

or select

[stoic needle]

Not worth

[balmy condor]

I used to do mouseover bleeds back in legion because that crit trinket that you had to stack

[median mango]

And also sometimes you rupture a different target when you want to rupture Our main but you forgot that you didn't hold rmb

[balmy condor]

changing targets reset the stacks

but if you mouseover ruptured

[stoic needle]

Tab is just too reliable

[balmy condor]

you never changed targets

[hollow escarp]

eye of command

[balmy condor]

that's the one

[stoic needle]

That sounds sick

[hollow escarp]

upper kara farming

[lapis warren]

btw i heard very conflicting opinions does necrolord serated bonespike work with the bleed leggo or not, leaning towards not but just curious as sometimes people say yes other times no.

[balmy condor]

upper kara to the mooooooooon

[stoic needle]

Mouseover kick is definitely worth it

[balmy condor]

no

[stoic needle]

And MFD

But not for dots

[hollow escarp]

it's so risky

kicking something that you shouldn't

[lapis warren]

Kind of a shame but good to know

[stoic needle]

Somehow I don't really kick the wrong things much with mouseover kick

If I do then I just kidney it

[lapis warren]

kick it in the kidney instead

[valid plaza]

Interesting... so Sin has more buttons than Sub then... I could macro Back Stab / Shadowstrike, and Shadow Dance with Symbols... In this case I need to add another button for the occasional Ambush allowed out of stealth...

[hollow escarp]

well yeah, if we miss a kick, we have blind to cover for it

unless the mob is level 61

[stoic needle]

Nah sin does not have more buttons than sub

[balmy condor]

macroing bs/ss is just bad tho

[lapis warren]

Don't think so

[balmy condor]

sin still has less buttons

[median mango]

Black powder is already one more

[lapis warren]

I'm playing sub and did a lil testing just to get my keybinds in order. sub has more buttons even with the combining buttons

[valid plaza]

Black Powder and CT would technically be the same...

[stoic needle]

But ct is talented

[median mango]

Well then you can argue for st if talents count

[hollow escarp]

CT is a talent

[stoic needle]

So you don't always have it

[median mango]

But yes, weird how it's not baseline, right? Welcome to the sin discussion. 😂

[balmy condor]

lets compare:
mut - strike/bs
rupture - rupture
enven - evisc
garrote - powder
ct - sectec
shiv - shiv
vend - blades
ambush - dance
vanish - vanish
and I'm out of sin abilities to link to sub

but sub still has symbols

and uh

yeh....

don't macro strike/bs

[lapis warren]

Well if it were AND it would do venomous wounds you basically gave sin the sub aoe rotation

kind of...

I know i'm stretching it

[valid plaza]

I mean, I macroed Strike with BS and was hitting 99 parses... how is it bad?

[balmy condor]

because you're probably backstabbing at the start of a dance

[median mango]

You sometimes miss a cast

Yeah

[hollow escarp]

even with stance bar?

[valid plaza]

But I had Strike also macroed to SD?

[lapis warren]

I personally use the stealth bar for backstab and ss

[hollow escarp]

I haven't played that much sub

[valid plaza]

So it did it first.

[balmy condor]

well then it's fine obviously

[balmy condor]

stance bar is the problem here

[stoic needle]

Wouldn't it be Bs and mut and strike and ambush

[balmy condor]

cause bar lag exists

[hollow escarp]

I see

[valid plaza]

I just had SD and Strike macroed as well so I didn't get that problem.

[balmy condor]

I just linked abilities until I ran out, not really any rhyme or reason

[stoic needle]

Fair

[valid plaza]

But yeah, on my bars I'm needed one more button. lol

[median mango]

Do you also have a key where you dance without strike?

[valid plaza]

As Sin

[lapis warren]

You forgot shadowdance in your list

[median mango]

Cause then that's another button. 😄

[balmy condor]

the part that says dance

is dance

[lapis warren]

ah nvm

confused me since you should have done ambush-ambush

[balmy condor]

sub doesn't have ambush

[lapis warren]

Well shadowstrike

whatever

same thing basically

Almost

least compare similar abilities no?

[balmy condor]

I mean I kinda did

[valid plaza]

Either way, interesting on my end; just wanting to try out SIn now that SUb is dead.

[balmy condor]

until I ran out

[lapis warren]

But is it really "dead"

Unless you play high end

[balmy condor]

nah

but it's a good meme

[lapis warren]

How long till it will be sin to be the dead meme again

[balmy condor]

sub does deserve an aura buff or something

don't get me wrong

but it's not dead

[lapis warren]

get the single target up some more

[valid plaza]

Yeah, they need something that doesn't make it stronger in PvP but can do a bit more in PvE. Either way, It will be fun to try out sin; I also am excited to see if Venthyr (which I am) helps with the flag changes.

[lapis warren]

I mean you can buff abilities in pve but not in pvp

[hollow escarp]

all rogue specs need 30% damage buff because we only do physical damage in melee range and bring no utility

[balmy condor]

sin is like 35% nature damage

[viral meadow]

Office space meta

[lapis warren]

Sub does do some shadow dmg

[balmy condor]

sub is like 30% shadow damage

[lapis warren]

more in aoe

[hollow escarp]

yeah, the reddit meme was way to true

[lapis warren]

outlaw suffers a lot in pvp as it only does physical

[balmy condor]

funny you say that, because blizzard separated out pvp and pve balance a while ago. That's why they nerfed ER in pvp, and not in pve

you'd think it wouldn't be hard

but blizz makes it very difficult on themselves

[hollow escarp]

I did some skirms as outlaw, I felt like a warrior

[balmy condor]

by simply letting issues sit there

[lapis warren]

You would asume outlaw (previously combat) would have the skills to pass by armor

[hollow escarp]

they have pvp talents for that

[lapis warren]

In general not just pvp tho

[balmy condor]

nowhere near sin/sub levels though

[hollow escarp]

ofc

[valid plaza]

@balmy condor I feel like they could just make Shadow Blades do more percent damage, or even make Shadow Strike hit harder or buff up Weapon Master... I dunno -- so many options I feel like... lol

[balmy condor]

sin actually just bypasses armor on fucking everything

[stoic needle]

The problem is that now sin does basically the same damage as sub but it's way more consistent and way easier to play

[hollow escarp]

and also deals shadow damage

[lapis warren]

I would have prefered it would be called Duelist

[stoic needle]

Yeah aren't only our autos affected by armor? Kinda pog

[balmy condor]

many options and not doing anything is the blizzard way

[balmy condor]

mutilate

[stoic needle]

Eh it does like no damage anyway

[balmy condor]

but you tilt me with maim mangle memes

[stoic needle]

It's really only to boost the doomblade dot

[lapis warren]

If you would give fok 2 cp would you even use mut ?

[stoic needle]

I mean like

[lapis warren]

Besides single target

[balmy condor]

well yeh duh

[stoic needle]

If the ptr buff to the bleed was enough to put it above dashing

[balmy condor]

fok damage is t-r-a-s-h

[stoic needle]

You can see why I think maim mangle might be good?

[hollow escarp]

sometimes it feels bad to use fok even on 3 targets

get more combo points if I crit with mutilate

[lapis warren]

Don't play it but people say both do trash damage

[stoic needle]

Yeah you don't fok until 4

At least with this level of crit

It's weird

[balmy condor]

we currently mut on 3 yeah

[hollow escarp]

my brain is stuck in the past

too much multi speccing

[stoic needle]

I still do it because I cba to tab mut everything to spread deadly poison

[hollow escarp]

you guys use /startattack macros in your abilities?

[balmy condor]

a 226 maim mangle is 15%, which is a 4.5% gain to the doomblade dot. A 226 WPS though, now that's 16% extra nature damage during shiv

I thought you were mr envenom damage

I thought I knew you

[balmy condor]

I don't see a purpose for it

[stoic needle]

As a second potency though

[balmy condor]

you wouldn't want to buff poison damage?

[stoic needle]

I mean maybe

I guess I just wish they hadn't nuked our conduits to shit

[lapis warren]

Well mut aparently did 1.2k dmg for me and fok on one target did 569dmg. Wouldn't the less energy cost want you to already use it at 3 targets?

[balmy condor]

no

because the cp from fok ain't worth

[viral meadow]

I fok at 5 targets and still get 1cp. Feels like shit

[stoic needle]

It does

But first strike helps a lot with that

[balmy condor]

I played katar korayn today

in keys

[hollow escarp]

[balmy condor]

just for fun

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

I noticed the cp

[hollow escarp]

I tried katar once

[balmy condor]

I did not notice any damage

[hollow escarp]

not korayn

[balmy condor]

honestly with how minimal conduits are

I can't tell anymore

like I played maybe 10 keys as burrs

and just didn't fucking notice

[stoic needle]

You're crazy

[balmy condor]

and then I played korayn in raid for 3 bosses after swapping

and I also didn't fucking notice

nothing has any impact

[stoic needle]

I definitely notice the difference between the two

[hollow escarp]

I played Korayn on Sire 2 weeks ago

forgot to swap

[stoic needle]

That's actually legit tho

[balmy condor]

no it's not

[hollow escarp]

I don't even play subterfuge on sire

[stoic needle]

Double dipping on wild hunt tactics is legit

[hollow escarp]

I zug zug sire

[balmy condor]

for the p2 damage?

[hollow escarp]

and rupture everything else

[balmy condor]

the part that don't matter?

[hollow escarp]

I can't get more than 4500 dps on sire though

[balmy condor]

on the sword you can't hit half the time?

that's the cheese?

[hollow escarp]

tried to pad on first phase with fok from vanish with MA

[stoic needle]

I have that thing dotted like the whole time

Padding with foK

[hollow escarp]

@stoic needle hey, that's how I got my best parse

[stoic needle]

[hollow escarp]

because I always do good in phase 3

[balmy condor]

I play MA on sire

[hollow escarp]

and even 2

[balmy condor]

and the first vanish

is always fok env fok env

:P

5cp on adds

[hollow escarp]

same

[balmy condor]

big nut

[hollow escarp]

[stoic needle]

Maybe you'd do more with the big dick quadruple subt garotte in p2

[hollow escarp]

gonna join a pug and try crimson tempest

[stoic needle]

N

[hollow escarp]

[north basin]

Purple rogue = green/grey warlock

[limber lion]

Don't do it

Save yourself the trouble of wiping on the boss for an hour

[hollow escarp]

well, I joined a pug last night and 1 shot sire

[stoic needle]

Sire pugs are a special kind of hell

[hollow escarp]

was helping a streamer group to boost some people

[stoic needle]

That's like cheating lmao

[hollow escarp]

2nd damage after fire mage overall

no PI

I only do it to spread the word that rogues are not useless

[stoic needle]

We're missionaries spreading the word of sin god

[limber lion]

I joined several "zerg 220+ mythic exp only 90+ logs" groups on reset and still managed to wipe on Sire.

I don't get it.

[hollow escarp]

I check the leader

[limber lion]

It's such a laid out fight

[hollow escarp]

all the time

[balmy condor]

should've joined the "zerg 221+ mythic exp only 95+ logs" instead

there's your problem

[hollow escarp]

or "fail = kick"

[limber lion]

Ah that might be it

[balmy condor]

but honestly

groups like that are hell from my experience

cause everyone is in there for parses

which means you have stuff like inerva bottles

not my problem, I'm parsing pepega

and then you wipe

[hollow escarp]

yep

[balmy condor]

and the entire group goes "wow what a shit group"

and leaves

[limber lion]

Yep, pretty typical.

[hollow escarp]

but Sire doesn't have parse punishing mechanics that much, except the soak in phase 3

[balmy condor]

me need uptime on boss, me ook ook stand in puddle

[hollow escarp]

you don't get kicked from pugs if you don't soak, only if you do low damage

[balmy condor]

10 missed auto attacks from moving for 0.5 seconds = blue parse dude

don't you know

[hollow escarp]

gotta compensate for lack of skill

[balmy condor]

I accidentally clipped an envenom buff by a third of a second guys can we wipe and try again

[limber lion]

It's funny how usually the people ignoring mechanics and looking to parse big are the ones who parse purple.

[balmy condor]

yeah

it's the people who don't understand how parses work

[hollow escarp]

but purple isn't bad

[balmy condor]

and just think if they glue themselves to the boss and press their keys harder, it'll be 100 for sure

[limber lion]

Yep

[hollow escarp]

well that's pug life

[balmy condor]

not understanding that they can hit like 97-99 in their guild groups on reclears and shit

by just being good

like I am of a firm opinion that if you know how to play your spec optimally, and you can kill the boss in a reasonable amount of time with your guild, without much of a hiccup, you should be able to just parse 90's straight through on heroic no problem

on mythic you might run into gear and fight timing stuff a little harder

[hollow escarp]

somebody actually did it

[balmy condor]

but even then

like 80-90 is achievable

with basically no effort

the bottom 50% of parses are like first time kills anyway

[iron orchid]

can't find a way to parse on sire with my guild 😢

[balmy condor]

and sloppy rekills and shit

[hollow escarp]

same, vendetta timings are so bad in phase 2

[limber lion]

I've actually done a CT run on Sire as well, but PB beat it by quite a bit.

[balmy condor]

yeh CT on sire seems questionable

[limber lion]

But yeah Whispyr, that's basically it. But then again not everyone plays with a guild

[balmy condor]

HB especially though

HB is mega ?

you take it for what

[limber lion]

Some are lone wolfs rhat just join log group after another, looking to parse big

[balmy condor]

p1 burst?

[limber lion]

Just p1 literally

It's awful

[balmy condor]

I mean at least there's people trying to make HB work

props

I might run HB katar korayn tomorrow with my guild group when we do lowbie keys

just to meme

[limber lion]

I heard someone say "you get your majority of damage in p1 because you pad the adds"

[balmy condor]

and see if I can still beat the hunter

[limber lion]

Then I took 5 examples for him from the logs where someone did LESS damage after P1 than after the fight ended

[balmy condor]

how disconnected from reality can people be

[hollow escarp]

had people complain that others kill adds too fast

[limber lion]

He didn't say anything after that

Yeah, it's so dumb

[hollow escarp]

it's a good bump in overall

maybe like 200 dps

[limber lion]

Oh you get big deeps in P1? Might as well lust there then

[hollow escarp]

PI?

got PI bro? had good dam in P1

[limber lion]

I've got to admit that my best Sire parse was because someone chose me as their PI target

They whispered "oi bro i saw your logs, ill pi you"

Because logs = damage

[hollow escarp]

lol

[limber lion]

My 99 is a boomkins 70

PI UDK on opener, affli between 30-90% and assa for the last 30%

Usually people just PI whoever does the most damage, not who gets the most value out of it.

[viral meadow]

Is sin PI in execute actually bis?

[balmy condor]

yeh

[hollow escarp]

it's hard to convince people

and asking for PI is a bit cringe

[iron orchid]

and they will keep doing more damage if they always get PI, so no one will ever question the choice

[hollow escarp]

unless the group actually fails to kill the boss

[limber lion]

Yep

[iron orchid]

I ran a normal CN yesterday, asked my priest for PIs

I discovered a new world

[hollow escarp]

I'm still 2/4 on the Normal Quest for Sludgefist 😕

need to visit that soon

[iron orchid]

I had not ran a NM CN since Dec 16th

[hollow escarp]

same, did 2 runs in december

btw, do you guys keep vendetta for pillar damage on Sludge?

[limber lion]

On heriic you normally lust the first pillar, so you vendetta 1/3 pillars

[iron orchid]

usually yes, but it depends on your kill and lust timers

[limber lion]

On mythic you use Vendetta on openet and 2/4 pillars

[hollow escarp]

tbf, the last week was the first time I did so but I still couldn't beat my outlaw parse

I want full sin on my page

[iron orchid]

If you do this in Heroic you would have it on lust/1st pillar

and then on pillar/exec phase

so probably max output

[hollow escarp]

tbf, lust was always bad for me

[limber lion]

Can't crop for shit on my phone sorry LMAO

[hollow escarp]

np

[limber lion]

But yeav I've done a fair share of Sludge pulls on Assa

As yoy can see my Sub is dogshit

:--D

[hollow escarp]

need to convince my guild to lust first pillar

[limber lion]

It's the best. Everyone has cds up.

[hollow escarp]

actually we did that last kill

[limber lion]

It's not like you'll be tight on damage

[hollow escarp]

but I died 10 sec before boss died

and that's big dam lost

like 50k

[limber lion]

It was saved for enrage because people were scared of the dps/healing check. But with out current gear and knowlege it shouldn't be a problem

[hollow escarp]

ohh, I know now. We had a lot of alts up to Sludge

we usually don't smash the wall

[limber lion]

Yeah, that's happened to me quite a few times as well. Dying to passive damage that I can't do anything about is the worst

[hollow escarp]

just last pillar

I used healthstone too early

but I would have died

because cheat death doesn't work on Sludge

[limber lion]

What do you mean?

For sure does.

[hollow escarp]

I die fast after hitting cheat death

not literally not working

[limber lion]

To which mechanic

[hollow escarp]

aoe

last phase

[limber lion]

I've literally killed people with chains on mythic and survived

There is no '"last phase" in Sludge

It's just one phae

[hollow escarp]

last part

of the fight

[limber lion]

Which aoe?

There's many aoe abilities as well

[hollow escarp]

haven't checked on logs though

[limber lion]

I've never had the issue with cheat death not working.

Takes a serious blow to actually die through it.

[hollow escarp]

but I need to show you my favorite death I had on sludge while I was paired with a sub rogue

[limber lion]

One thing you can die to is soaking 3 times in a row on Generals.

[hollow escarp]

we backtracked like 2-3 times before we decided where to go

[limber lion]

That literally happened on one of our mythic pulls as well. Lmao

[hollow escarp]

you can see we were sitting like monkeys outside the melee group

[candid quarry]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[hollow escarp]

the worst part is that the pull was a kill

[viral meadow]

Ouch

[hollow escarp]

wait, I'm actually dumb

is Headless Charge just by sitting in the line of Sludgefist?

or is that the damage from the impact with pillars/wall?

[dense hamlet]

it deals dmg if ur infront of sludge

probably oneshots

and does like 20k on hit with anything

wall or pillars

[hollow escarp]

yeah, that's what happened 2 times, both at 5:40 min

[dense hamlet]

what happend?

[hollow escarp]

got hit by it

[dense hamlet]

did u get hit by slutfist

haha

[hollow escarp]

but in my pov I was behind

[cinder yoke]

you can get hit if you're too far into his hitbox

[dense hamlet]

well the game says NO

[cinder yoke]

it's pretty shit

[hollow escarp]

yeah, I guess I need to keep some distance next time

[dense hamlet]

yeah go stand on ur ranged

[hollow escarp]

neah, it makes sense now

[dense hamlet]

do nothing

[cinder yoke]

one of the funniest wipes i've seen, our priest dropped a barrier too far into his hitbox

all the ranged ran onto it (for that last charge) and got gibbed

[dense hamlet]

imgaine getting chained with a dh

[hollow escarp]

with momentum talented

[dense hamlet]

i dont think they are dumb enought to take momentum on slutfist

[hollow escarp]

checking

dissapointed

would make for a nice meme kill

[dense hamlet]

yeah

[cinder yoke]

can you still movement cancel fel rush?

[low girder]

If your DH is taking momentum on sludgefist that's kick worthy tbh

[dense hamlet]

i dont think u can cancel felrush

[hollow escarp]

it's probably not even better damage wise

[dense hamlet]

it is on mostly St fights

but on sludge

u get to use 2 felrushes

[hollow escarp]

they still don't play it in top 100 logs

nvm, was looking at Hungering

you don't want momentum there either

[dense hamlet]

XD

theres a guy with momentum on shriek number 6

yeah theres 2 out of 100

completly worth

[hollow escarp]

[dense hamlet]

wait when did sub get so bad

worse than assa

hmm

[hollow escarp]

since they buffed assa

[dense hamlet]

and its only 2k parses

vs 11k sub parses

nice

assa rising the meters allready

love to see that

[hollow escarp]

[dense hamlet]

number 23/24

good

[cinder yoke]

i was hoping they would announce tier sets with 9.1

so we could get some broken ass set bonus to salvage the class

[dense hamlet]

they announced ugly covenant sets

[hollow escarp]

^

[dense hamlet]

man i got hit in the face when they showed the covenant sets

like who asked for nf set to look like a literall clown

[hollow escarp]

well, everybody gets them regardless of what content you do, so they don't have the same value anyway

[dense hamlet]

i mean

it dosent have to be shit

[viral meadow]

Regardless of covenant?

[hollow escarp]

no

[dense hamlet]

no ofc

[solar hare]

Kyrian looks worse than fae

[hollow escarp]

I mean it's welfare loot

[dense hamlet]

i mustve forgot how nf looks

[hollow escarp]

venthyr looks outsourced

[dense hamlet]

venthyr is topping the meeters on transmog sets

[solar hare]

Ok that kyrian picture doesnt look that bad

[hollow escarp]

plate nathria set

[solar hare]

On the human male they showed

In the reveal

It was horrid

[limber lion]

I like the male Kyrian set. It looks Olympian

[dense hamlet]

look at nf

[limber lion]

It's very Hercules-like

[solar hare]

The venthyr set tho