if flag ends up good, I'm prolly being a vampire again tbh
#assassination
balmy condor
1:30
gentle sable
But 0 energy cost o. O
fleet whale
it's 1.5 but i doubt you use it right on cd
slow marsh
and its 24 sec uptime total between the two buffs
balmy condor
ah yes
slow marsh
?
fleet whale
and yeah no energy cost now
balmy condor
0 energy cost
slow marsh
does it give cp
balmy condor
the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE change
fleet whale
nah, but 0 energy is a good trade off
balmy condor
it was 20 energy lmao
fleet whale
it was either give a cp, or 0 energy
slow marsh
so decent damage decent buff for free 3 times a fight
gentle sable
Dps!
fleet whale
yeah, and no reactivation
fleet whale
plus it should be a fun mini game to play with
trying to get as much haste as you can
fast nacelle
@balmy condor do you know the dps of execute lego compared to the new pin
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> do you know the dps of execute lego compared to the new p...
I'm assuming he's using a similar setup to my bis list, so doomblade maybe 100 dps ahead, dusk 100 behind, ttb 50 behind?
honestly dunno
fast nacelle
@vestal wren
vestal wren
6546 dps is zoldy
fast nacelle
i mean i dont think anything beside execute bracer will be viable for "top" raiding
pliant sorrel
How do I see pin on mobile
balmy condor
How do I see pin on mobile
swipe to the left
vestal wren
so doomblade > zoldy
pliant sorrel
Ty
fast nacelle
for overall dmg yeah.. hm - i dont think its big enough of difference
vestal wren
i mean, zold is just vey strong for execute
fast nacelle
in a progress enviorment
yeah well i dont see me playing my rogue beside execute valued fights.. compared to dk
(even there dk wont be behind probably if they keep soul reaper that high)
vestal wren
doomblade is ~1.2% above
fast nacelle
doomblade was the night hold lego right
vestal wren
so ye, not going to make it "the pick" when execute is relevant
pliant sorrel
So blood fang is getting buffed? The gw legendary?
pliant sorrel
Cause of the previous interation
fast nacelle
same as in beta
pliant sorrel
Yeah
vestal wren
yes
pliant sorrel
But it’s not getting actually bugged
vestal wren
blizz did a "lets do it again"
pliant sorrel
Buffed**
fast nacelle
i also saw they changed energyregen to 8 energy and removed snd regen right
vestal wren
snd r2 got purged and they added back the extended snd ability and will buff wv
pliant sorrel
Being*
fast nacelle
thats why you only use it one time
but i dont understand the design pov
fast nacelle
you bring snd which feels bad
you add energyreg to make it feel less bad
you bring an ability which prevents you from using this bad ability more than 1 time and remove its "benefit"
fast nacelle
so they basically keep snd only to have this "class fantasy" thing
stoic needle
you're goddamn right it is
fast nacelle
bc it would look bad to have snd only on the 2 specs which profit
vestal wren
they did overall fine with snd
stoic needle
all i'm saying is that you get the full value every time from everything about night fae
and venthyr is more inconsistent
that's all
vestal wren
all 3 specs had something that made you notice a difference when having it up
not anymore
dark vigil
yea
fast nacelle
if you remove the rank 2 snd where is the benefit for assa core gameplay
vestal wren
you still use it
stoic needle
instant poison procs 
vestal wren
thats kinda the point ye
fast nacelle
vestal wren
the change does not seem intuitive
pliant sorrel
Melee dam our #1 dam
vestal wren
or justified in design
pliant sorrel
vestal wren
but i have a rather strong opinion on that
fast nacelle
maybe im wrong but i wouldnt miss snd and the poison applications and melee dmg as an assassin rogue
vestal wren
oh yes but thats a entire diffrent direction
snd was not introduced as something you ignore or not use
would defeat the purpose of it
stoic needle
i would bet money that they prune it again in 10.0
they just don't want to do a complete about face and remove it mid-exp
fast nacelle
nah snd is def not the issue
its just a finisher you could also delete
it doesnt add anything cool
vestal wren
snd is also a fairly long duration
so the main issue is rly that it does not interact witht he spec
what snd r2 fixed
fast nacelle
yup
sullen saffron
i think its a good change, it feels overhelming to keep up that much uptimes
vestal wren
you need to keep snd up still^^
sullen saffron
no u dont
vestal wren
the change does not change a lot rotaiton wise
sullen saffron
your envenom extends the duration
fast nacelle
even without rank 2 i think snd was the most efficent finisher for assa in the beta
iirc
vestal wren
snd already had a very low amount of casts, reducing it further isn't that big of a diffrence
i think people want it to be 100% passive tbh
vestal wren
i don't mind maintaining it on subtlety
fast nacelle
also i thought the addition of the envenom thingy is without the removal of snd rank 2 to buff assa and give rogue one good niche (execute and st)
however current state nothing will change until tier sets come out
vestal wren
and subtlety has the same maintenance finishers assassination has
dark vigil
or just buffs
pliant sorrel
Mastery effect snd when
fast nacelle
wondering if they really want to keep amz
i feel its unhealthy to have raid cds on dps specs rather than tank/heal
even if they add smokebomb the meta would change from dk monk to dk rogue which is bad for the game
dark vigil
what if they made zoldyck work on envenom too
would make us insane at execute but
give us something 
vestal wren
i think assassination after the buffs is in a decent position
dark vigil
its still not enough
vestal wren
the execute could make it a pick
dark vigil
for the "meta"
tribal marlin
You'll still have to refresh SnD in some long downtime period
dark vigil
but its definitely not as bad as logs make it seem
tribal marlin
or if you are multi doting a lot
ionic fox
Amazing how rogue just has no dmg and no utility as a 3 dps spec
dark vigil
yep
pliant sorrel
We have shroud tho
dark vigil
mage has lust.. insane defensives.. a raid buff..
short hamlet
Shroud is huge
icy crater
the change does not change a lot rotaiton wise
do you want 1 thing that does a lot or lots of things that do a little?
short hamlet
Your UHDK can get so close
dark vigil
shroud is basically useless for raiding
ionic fox
Also the Class fantasy is cool... how could blizz not want it to be at least decent lmfao
tribal marlin
Shround is useless in raid environnement
pliant sorrel
vestal wren
do you want 1 thing that does a lot or lots of things that do a little?
i don't know what you mean
short hamlet
How is letting your UHDK get right next to the boss useless?
dark vigil
i think he means
fast nacelle
i think assassination after the buffs is in a decent position
after the last aura buff or 9.0.5? i dont see much of a buff beside the SND QOL change
dark vigil
the damage profile
vestal wren
again, i know a lot of people love the idea that snd is removed from the bar entirely
vestal wren
after the last aura buff or 9.0.5? i dont see much of a buff beside the SND QOL ...
9.0.5 has no actual dps changes iirc
pliant sorrel
I could care less as long as we did dam 😦
fast nacelle
thats why im asking
frozen karma
your UHDK is bad anyway, he's like last one dmg because he's a bad player and rerolled fotm, doesn't matter
🙂
vestal wren
so both is fine
dark vigil
i think in a way if they removed snd but gave us much stronger dots to be about the same dps it would make us stronger overall on cleave fights
fast nacelle
i mean yeah if castle would be released today limit would probably bring 1 assa rogue
dark vigil
cause our dots would be stronger
fast nacelle
for sire
icy crater
i don't know what you mean
So outlaw is a good example of lots of things that do a little. Your rotation doesn't change much by adding an extra button here and there. Most spells are relatively low ish impact but summed up equal a lot of dps. unholy dk for example stacks minion modifiers through spells then pops a short but meaningful cd for most of their damage.
fast nacelle
not sure if uhdk still has the better execute
dark vigil
also our dots being stronger would be even more beneift from zoldyck
it does
unholy dk is still top execute
soul reaper is nuts
short hamlet
You wouldn't bring a rogue over a UHDK right now. Even if their execute damage is marginally better, having a AMZ is huge.
frozen karma
nah lock is better pretty sure but DK isn't far
dark vigil
go check logs of sub 30% on bosses
fast nacelle
obviously you wouldnt bring a rogue over 4th dk but how many dks did they play
dark vigil
4
fast nacelle
alright
vestal wren
So outlaw is a good example of lots of things that do a little. Your rotation do...
so, the argument here is that you should reduce the atm relatively simple rotation to be even simpler?
fast nacelle
pack it up boys
vestal wren
i am not sure if i missunderstand
icy crater
so, the argument here is that you should reduce the atm relatively simple rotati...
No there isn't an argument, I'm just asking what you prefer.
fast nacelle
i mean yeah thats the point - there is no reason to play any rogue spec as long as uhdk exist in current state
thats pretty sad for being a tripple dps spec
*class
dark vigil
remove snd to switch up our damage profile into our bleeds and poison dots to be about equal throughout a fight, and itll make our execute even better
hollow robin
Does sbs gain the damage from zoldycks?
icy crater
i am not sure if i missunderstand
Do you prefer less buttons that are more meaningful or more buttons that are less meaningful but sum up to the same damage.
ionic fox
i dont care how many buttons i have to press on rogue as long as i can do equal dam
frozen karma
only dps classes should always be top dps or not far from it imo, especially when they don't bring much utility, I've been playing FF14 in downtime and that's how it works there which seems fine
dark vigil
of course
vestal wren
if you remove it, it does "nothing"
dark vigil
unholy dk should be middle of the pack or lower, but since they bring a lot of stuff for the raid that makes them still viable
rogues, feral should be top dmg since they dont bring anything
fast nacelle
im really wondering if we are just doomed cause of tomb of soakgeras and they gave up on us
vestal wren
tomb def. killed our soaking
icy crater
I think we're talking about different things, that's ok, we can move on :p
vestal wren
you can try to explain your point if you want
dark vigil
overall the balance isnt too bad compared to previous xpacs but there is some glaring issues
icy crater
Ok, I'll give it a go
tidal gorge
The main issue I've always had with SnD isn't that I had to press it. It's that it's a boring and unrewarding ability that lacks any creativity whatsoever. I'm happy to press more finishers but they should be more inspired than "your white damage is increased for 45 sec"
fast nacelle
the tuning was balanced bc we were soaking machines
then they removed soaking from being that meaningful in raids but we never ended up being a top spec/class
like - in their mind we still have feint without cd - feint legendary - cloak for every boss spell
dark vigil
ill repeat myself again
hoary kernel
with the new changes to flagellation is venthyr > night fae?
dark vigil
remove snd, frees up more damage profile for us and give it to use in our bleeds and poison
makes our execute stronger too
vestal wren
overall the balance isnt too bad compared to previous xpacs but there is some gl...
thats objectively seen incorrect, the gap in dps between specs is higher than usual esp. for a first tier
vale latch
i usually use afenar or luxthos for wa suites - anyone have an opinion which is better at tracking snapshotting?
dark vigil
outisde of that it's not too bad yes rogues are in the shitter right now in contrast but i just mean overall
fast nacelle
boomie being that high without having that little "classic raid bosses" which means spread cleave is funny
like boomi probably even more busted than dk
if you have more fights like in the past tiers boomie will sky rocket even more lol
it wasnt even a "good" content for their dmg profile
meanwhile rogues..
ionic fox
Boomie top dps while having the option to be a tank or a healer lul
fast nacelle
thats a stupid statement though
dark vigil
its not even fair to compare to them right now
fire mage boomie ww afflic are just a tier above everything
you can tell how scared blizzard is to nerf them with that malefic rapture revert
lmao
they just straight up removed the nerf instead of lowering the nerf
fast nacelle
nah i think its like usual - ranged > melee for the most time which is fine
dark vigil
unholy dk is the strongest melee in the game by a mile right now because of what they bring
amz, ams, 10% more hp than everyone
plate armor for phys stuff(sludge)
execute
instant aoe without having to invest in it
icy crater
We have spec 1: This spec has 12 buttons and does 10k dps. Each button is generally pressed on CD and there is no lining up of abilities, you just track and press them.
spec 2: This spec has 7 buttons, the stronger cds have more interactions with other abilities and its worth it to line them up. That means there are conditions for pressing buttons and you are rewarded on timings and execution. You have to think about what you're doing and not just press them. This spec also does 10k dps.
My question is, which playstyle do you prefer?
@vestal wren
dark vigil
big burst cds
fast nacelle
but we got the heal threatment - its not like melees are bad
its just uhdk has no dmg profile - he has smth for every fight + best utility
same with healer in the past
shaman druid monk were not bad
pally /disc was just too busted
ranges being > melee is not the issue
its that one melee has a raidcd and low cd immunity
and the other one abuses a weird conduit
on the last 2 fights
while the other melees are "in line"
vestal wren
We have spec 1: This spec has 12 buttons and does 10k dps. Each button is genera...
you can design a spec with 7 buttons to be angaging and one with 7 buttons to be borring. The button count does not matter to me
snd does not "hold back" assassination in dps
envenom does jack shit dps wise
and you press snd close to once a minute, so you don't even lose out on many casts
tidal gorge
My personal dream for sin spec is to have a selection of things you can add to your envenoms to do various things (splash damage, aoe debuff, dot, etc.) that have a cooldown/charges. And they interact with each other in interesting ways so that you don't always want to press them in the same order. That would be a cool spec. SnD is just a "you have to push me" ability, super super boring
vestal wren
if anything using a damage finisher more often means that tuning is lower
so it feels less engaging to play
sharp haven
serious question, is anyone currently/planning to prog sire with assass?
somber bison
nah i think its like usual - ranged > melee for the most time which is fine
why is that fine though
vestal wren
assassination is rly strong on sire
frozen karma
I have to kill SLG first haha...
median mango
wait you guys do mythic? 
sharp haven
im considering saving my soul ash for the execute legendary
vestal wren
p3 is what matters and assassination is probably the best dps for that (rogue spec)
sharp haven
but i feel like in order for assass to be better than outlaw you need specific secondary stat allocations
fast nacelle
sire is prob one of the best fights that can be designed for assa rogue
sharp haven
(a lot of haste mastery)
or is the execute just straight up better even without the proper secondaries?
balmy condor
but i feel like in order for assass to be better than outlaw you need specific s...
pls no
not this bait
fast nacelle
beside fallen avatar sire is prob the best "assa execute" fight
balmy condor
I'm not strong enough
frozen karma
assass uses mastery now? haven't checked in a while but it was it's worst stat before
tribal marlin
Our execute is good, we talked about it a lot since recent buff to Assa. No doubt here we have it !
But even if DK were doing 10% less damage than us in execute (which is not the case, they are doing mostly equal) you'll still probably prefer DK over Rogue
and EVEN if AMZ was useless because physical damage .... well you'll still maybe prefere DK because that would mean plate > leather
icy crater
Does anyone actually not believe that?
sharp haven
nah no doubt DK is better, but for my raid im probably gonna be in with my rogue
so im wondering if its worth investing into assass legendary now
vestal wren
if you want to bring it to sire
icy crater
I mean idk, I'm a rogue player, its what I've played for years and likely will continue to play. I just like it.
vestal wren
why not
loud niche
i just like this spec
icy crater
I'll never be in a position where I'm replaced by a DK because I'm frankly not that good to be that high up in the world rankings
vestal wren
if you don't want to invest in the spec now, you could just wait and see what happens in blizzconline and on ptr in the near future
frozen karma
same, I like every rogue spec, used to hate outlaw but the SL version with conduits/lego feels nice
vestal wren
my point is, play what you like most and don't feel preasured into playing what is the absolute best
loud niche
^
median mango
my point is, play what you like most and don't feel preasured into playing what ...
I have to agree with this so much
loud niche
im nearing 6/10m with assassination :3
median mango
and if your guild doesnt let you play what you enjoy, find another one 🙂
sharp haven
oh yeah for sure, i was just asking specifically for one fight for best chances at killing the boss what would be more useful
tribal marlin
Well idk Vendetta is still a strong dps CD. With the current state of meta, you'll probably take a Rogue only if you need Melee and if you somehow need to bring strong burst DPS in a short window
sharp haven
i still like outlaw/sub better
frozen karma
exactly, if I consider my raid group most people who went for fotm classes are just not pulling the weight they should, so at the end of the day play what you enjoy
vestal wren
the first rogue who killed mythic denathrius played subtlety
icy crater
I think if you're getting sat for a DK, you're either so bleeding edge that you should be playing one anyways, you have too many rogues in the raid and you're the lowest performer, or your guild has no idea what they're doing.
median mango
Well idk Vendetta is still a strong dps CD. With the current state of meta, you'...
you do burst damage? 😅
loud niche
have yall talked about the changes to SnD yet? dont wanna spam the question but....
balmy condor
the energy stuff is neutral
tribal marlin
like IDK there are 2 priority add to kill at like 90sec interval and you need a melee that can do substantial burst damage to both adds then maybe you'll take a duskwalker assa rogue and that's not even sure
balmy condor
cttc is like 6 envenoms extra
summer horizon
Nothing is changing with the recommended legendary yet right?
frozen karma
r2 snd gave energy regen right?
vestal wren
have yall talked about the changes to SnD yet? dont wanna spam the question but....
snd rank 2 gets nuked, wv gets buffed and the new ability to extend snd gets added.
overall... a lot of change for not a lot of change
yes
loud niche
yeah, also hoping no leggo changes happen
balmy condor
Nothing is changing with the recommended legendary yet right?
nor stat priority, nor talents, nor covenant stuff (yet)
we don't know about venthyr
frozen karma
yeah that was my impression when I saw the change, mostly QoL
summer horizon
Thanks, I really need to do Torg just to save up in case there is a change anyway but I don't want to.
loud niche
oh god pls no. let me stay fae. if venth goes hard tho ill swap :\
summer horizon
Venth was annoying with needing 2x GCDs.
median mango
Venth was annoying with needing 2x GCDs.
oh yes, I was trying so hard to stay venth
but I just couldnt
summer horizon
I hated that it had to count up the CPs too, what a dumb thing. It should have been instant.
loud niche
did they make it so it still gives initial cp when using? hopefully so
balmy condor
I just find it funny that we got "changes" and they end up being basically no change
loud niche
^
median mango
I just find it funny that we got "changes" and they end up being basically no ch...
true...
summer horizon
If you were at 24, 6cp envenom then you had to wait for it to count up to 30
loud niche
im hoping they buff us. like a lot. all rogue specs are suffering in comparison to the top end, and we're melee, they're not.
somber bison
surely there are more changes coming right ? 
balmy condor
who knows
loud niche
i'd assume so. 9.0.5 is projected for march, so couple weeks of trial and error
somber bison
i remember saying that during prepatch kek
tribal marlin
We deffo need more to be brought in line in this cruel melee meta unfortunately
Like I talked about it a lot : Duskwalker is good niche. But .... if it comes with the downside of doing significantly less damage it's just pointless. Duskwalker would have been good as like a tier set or stuff like this
summer horizon
They keep showing outlaw as being the upper spec but I was never able to pull off the damage unless the RNG gods looked down and blessed me with a good RtB. We need more than just flat % buffs imo
tribal marlin
But if it's "ok I'll play dusk but I loose execute" or "I'll play dusk and loose 5% sim dps" it's pointless
icy crater
When people talk about how bad things are for melee, have those people generally played ranged? I've only ever played melee my entire wow playtime and it just feels like shit I've always had to deal with.
balmy condor
dusk and zold together would be good
tribal marlin
yes exactly as double leggo meta !
but I'm effraid Double Leggo isn't in line yet 😦
summer horizon
Imagine 9.0.5 = We can't fix rogues so they get to use 2x legos
summer horizon
hah
loud niche
Yeah, i have a balance druid coming to replace my rogue for our mythic raid team, and i gotta tell you. where on my rogue it sucks to be melee, as balance i feel just as free to move, but nowhere near as low on the dps meters
still prefer rogue tho. always will
dark vigil
id rather sit
loud niche
i wasnt told i have to, i just wanted to. i hate to be #3 or 4 in the meters, ngl. if im not 1 or 2 i feel like im messing things up
loud niche
id feel like im cheating myself if i didnt compare myself to our rdps
dark vigil
just have ur details only show tank and healer dmg and yourself
and you'll live a better life
loud niche
lol
orchid gust
truuu
frozen karma
i usually show top 5 + myself
balmy condor
ALWAYS SHOW ME
indigo mulch
If they buffed sins regen just a smidge more the spec would feel better :c I actually miss super high haste from 8.3 ;c
near magnet
@balmy condor is venthyr now viable as assa?
indigo mulch
The bleed build was stupid but it was somewhat okay to play D; Atleast you always had something to press 😮
dark vigil
9.1 it will be simply better just with more secondaries to go around
but thats every spec
late birch
just checked someones logs not too sure how long ago it was but he was not using shiv at all
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> is venthyr now viable as assa?
do you have a magic 8 ball on hand
dark vigil
i wanted to see when he was casting ct in huntsman
tribal marlin
It's just a matter of raid value.
_DK / War / DH have clear value because they have Raid buff and/or Raid CD on top of other basic stuff in their kit such as mobility, tankiness, 4-5t cleave, sustained damage, downtime damage etc....
_Monks brings raid buff but that one usually fill from tank monk. Tho they have good mobility and very strong cleave.
_Enh bring a "raid" buff (even if it's party wide, can be requiered at some point) but most of all can spec ele
_Feral bring a bit of utility with roar but can spec balance
_Rogue ? Bring nothing to the raid. We are completly dependant on tuning.
dark vigil
feral and rogue are the most dependnt on tuning for sure
used to be dk prior to the amz
fleet anchor
Not even really tuning
shrewd iron
do we pool for shiv like we used to with tb back in bfa? it was a while ago i played assa
dark vigil
u still want to yea
fleet anchor
At the end of the day it comes down to raid slots
dark vigil
yea
near magnet
do you have a magic 8 ball on hand
what??
dark vigil
i mean the thing is
if we did a shit ton of damage to make up for the utility
there's a usage
shrewd iron
aight thx dude
fleet anchor
When guilds only want to run like 3-5 melee
dark vigil
execute is a very strong niche, outlaw's aoe is a very strong niche
fleet anchor
You can do good damage and still get sat
dark vigil
sub's... ? is a very strong niche
balmy condor
fleet anchor
WW was borderline broken this tier and still most comps only run 1 WW
fleet anchor
That isn’t because of damage
frozen karma
sub's niche is being a single target spec with no dmg
fleet anchor
It’s just raid slots
frozen karma
dark vigil
ww st dmg is lacking
dull cloak
remember when assassination did insane boss damage during Nighthold because of agonizing poison
fleet anchor
WW isn’t really lacking anything
dark vigil
max even said himself if brewmaster was better they wouldve brought something else instead of ww
rare blaze
This upcoming patch, Well-Placed Steel will drop from CN?
balmy condor
This upcoming patch, Well-Placed Steel will drop from CN?
yes
rare blaze
Thank you.
stoic needle
The bleed build was stupid but it was somewhat okay to play D; Atleast you alway...
this is just directly contradictory to the way that sin has played for years
stoic needle
it was bad and shouldnot come back
icy crater
WW is middle of the pack single target no?
tribal marlin
they are also somehow dependant on tuning. They were brought because BM was garbage and they were very highly tuned.
dark vigil
yea
winter gale
When we can expect 9.0.5?
fleet anchor
If you want melee slots you have to bring crazy utility and crazy damage. Otherwise it’s a ranged slot.
dark vigil
its pretty medicore single target
tribal marlin
That's the saddest part of the melee meta
fleet anchor
It’s just a toxic situation
tribal marlin
even when extremly well tuned, you still don't guarantee to be taken in raid
just because of how valuable are raid cd and raid buff
icy crater
I mean every single rogue spec is above WW on mythic hungering logs... barely but still
winter gale
Y
dark vigil
and is better throughout all the fights
tribal marlin
OR bring some other niches
icy crater
I'm not saying rogue is better. I'm saying it just does more damage.
tribal marlin
such as funneling or execute
ionic fox
Give rogue FW buff to party
dark vigil
it doesnt do enough still
ionic fox
lul
icy crater
I'm not sure its fair to way WW is completely broken is all. I could be ignorant to other shit they can do but they have at least 1 weakness.
fleet whale
well how about this... since the new raid will be set in torghast...
maybe a boss or two, well get torghast powers
THAT'S where sin will shine, lol
dark vigil
lol
icy crater
1.5 minutes of damage immunity, thanks blizzard
fleet whale
3% mastery lol
winter gale
Thats current one. Bosses are immune to our dmg
fleet whale
for real though, with the new raid in torghast, i can see a gimmick boss where we actually get some powers
tribal marlin
Somehow, I think you can't have the problem solved without agreeing with giving utility class less damage than pure dps class.
balmy condor
lmao
fleet whale
if it's a one time gimmick thing
tribal marlin
But that's not going to happen
fleet whale
it could be fun
tribal marlin
But giving all melee raid utility isn't the solution neither tho
fleet whale
just make melee deal more damage
tribal marlin
It's kind of an dead end
icy crater
Even if rogue was the highest dps in the game, does the utility of other classes outweigh that?
Like ya maybe
feral merlin
No lol usually not
tribal marlin
just make melee deal more damage
It's doesn't solve the problem. DK / DH / Warrior will be on top of Rogue and Monks (assuming BM bring raid buff)
fleet whale
well, another solution is just to remove raid buffs all together, like in Legion
and then tune melee specs higher
winter gale
One of 3 rogue specs must and will be top dmg next tier. We dont have raid CD so dmg is what we need to get. That combined with how good we are for mechanics will get us back up there. If they dont do that they will never hear the end if it. Same goes with warrior.
icy crater
The thing with that is everyone wanted raid buffs back, everyone wanted pvp gear to matter and no templates, now we have that and everyone wants legion back
fleet whale
sadly our defensives aren't as great as they used to be
raid buffs back are fine, it's just too limited
the mop/wod style raid buffs was better
tribal marlin
I disagree for the warrior. Warrior have both a raid buff and a raid cooldown.
As well as strong execute.
fleet whale
we had both smoke bomb and a haste buff in mop and wod
feral merlin
Would raids take dk only for amz if dk did bottom tier damage?
fleet whale
and just about every class brought something
icy crater
Would raids take dk only for amz if dk did bottom tier damage?
Probably, because utility and execute are super important for prog
winter gale
Better spot than ours but we must admit they somehow share our destiny 😂
feral merlin
if dk damage was trash, you would likely have a blood tank
Well if dk tank sucked too
meager egret
...does it not?
tribal marlin
often do yes
fleet whale
it's rare that any tank is unplayable in a tier, maybe like vengeance in bfa
tank optimization isn't nearly as important as dps optimization when talking comps
feral merlin
I'm uneducated, what did smokebomb used to do for raid
feral merlin
Like physical?
fleet whale
and of course it had the Line of sight thing, but in raid that was niche
tribal marlin
all damage
fleet whale
all damage
tribal marlin
Make some ability broke as well
feral merlin
Ez just make it do physical damage reduction in an area
tribal marlin
can find some very good use, like imagine droping smoke bomb on Council and all of the sudden all adds come by theimself to stack on melee
icy crater
remember when bomb caused some raid mechanics to be avoided
feral merlin
^ thats op
fleet whale
you could abuse bomb on lei shen too
so much so that blizz specifically had to make bomb not work on that fight lol
winter gale
I sticked to rogue as I love the spec but that forced me out from my raid grp for few bosses. Dont get me wrong, I am not beast player nor I sim legendary for all 3 specs but still...prior to this I was always used, either to push st dmg or do some mechanics or atleast couse I was consistent. Now I am sitting for Council to make space for 1/10M trial DK
😂
As I love the class*
fleet whale
bomb would also be godly in M+
feral merlin
If one dps class bring some raid utility, all should have some for of raid utility imo to even out the competition especially if there's super undertuned specs/classes
fleet whale
people still think we have great utility,
though i admit, i've been seeing more and more complaints on how rogues are weak now
winter gale
Rogues are now ‘meh’
winter gale
Luckily there is m+ 😂
feral merlin
Locks> gates health stones
Warrior shout
Mage intellect
DH brand
Monk physical dps
Dk AMZ
Like give rogues smoke bomb physical dmg mitigation in area
icy crater
I feel like if rogues complain the whole community just pretends we dont exist or shit talks to the class.
fleet whale
even in M+, rogues aren't as great as they used to be
tribal marlin
Same in PvP tbh xD
icy crater
Like people still bring up that rogues had legendaries when other classes didn't and we should pay for our sins
the fuck is that?
tribal marlin
dark age for the rogue which is 9.0 lol
rigid wyvern
The issue with rogues is we have the highest concentration of shitty edgelords that drag the specs perception down
winter gale
Ok, to be completely honest with you guys, since we are all here grieving over class. I am sitting for Mythic Council to make space for DK that came to the guild this week and was 1/10M. We gave him Vantus but he used it this week already to pad LOGS FOR HEROIC SHRIEKWING!!!
I think I beat everyone’s sad rogue story with this 😂
tribal marlin
did he really used vantus on shriekwing ?
fleet whale
Max from Limit essentially said for mythic raiding, you should avoid bringing rogues if possible lol
winter gale
He used it prior he joined
ionic fox
@winter gale guild must be trolling cause Sub is good for Attendants & it tops meter on the ST boss damage
icy crater
Max from Limit essentially said for mythic raiding, you should avoid bringing ro...
He said that from the context of world first racing...
fleet whale
it still applies to many other guilds though
winter gale
Inbetween guilds or whatever
icy crater
no, not really
feral merlin
He said that from the context of world first racing...
That trickles down tho
icy crater
Then the argument should be world first meta trickles down into world 3k guilds
not like oh world first raider said rogues are shit so they're shit and no one should play them and we should all start a support group because our class sucks
like
fleet whale
do you think rogue is in a good spot as far as raiding goes?
feral merlin
There was a ret pal support group in beta lol
winter gale
@ionic fox I felt like that in few occasions.
tribal marlin
But ret pal can spec holy
fleet whale
assuming equal skill level, what classes wouldn't be brought over rogue currently?
tribal marlin
Enh can spe heal or ele, feral can spe boomy
we can't spec range. If meta says Rogue is suboptimal you are fucked
winter gale
@fleet whale none
cunning surge
Rogue feels like it's in a solid spot, like there are no fights that I can think of right now that are BAD for them overall
Yeah it sucks for Melee in general but I mean, we can hit DPS checks if there are any outside of Sire and Sludge
icy crater
Obviously if you have a player who has a DK and a rogue and parses 95%+ on both and has no preference on which one to play, you bring the dk
tribal marlin
I think every single class should be valuable enough in at least one of their spec so that you always want to have at least one of each class in your raid.
icy crater
I mean, yeah that would be fantastic
tribal marlin
It doesn't mean you won't do some class stacking there are only 12 class ?
winter gale
Ill stick to the class. I am fully confident that rogues are like this due to no time to prepare the game fully for release. They will pump it for tier 2 and that will be assa as it look easiest to work with and its more versatile than sub.
proud reef
Hello guys, I was willing to roll rogue for next raid, but only Assass attracts me, I was wondering if it was really as bad as Rankings say it is
winter gale
Thats my peasant opinion 😂
tribal marlin
but Idk .... you can switch spec somehow but you can't switch class easily
dark vigil
doing better than rankings show but its still rough
cunning surge
I'm sticking with Sin all the way honestly, I've loved this spec since I've started, if I need to OS Outlaw fine, but I ain't losing hope in Sin
winter gale
I saw a screenshot today on hunter discord that shows the balance of specs so clearly. Hunter topped the damage with parse 100 and right beneath was Boomie on 2nd place with little less than him with parse 27
balmy condor
probably council
I would assume
where it's just pad city for boomie parses
but even then
cunning surge
Boomies are just, insane right now, like both them and Affliction are topping a lot of fights in general if WarcraftLogs is saying anything
balmy condor
kinda doubt that
winter gale
Ill try to find it
cunning surge
Yeah MM is fairly close to Boomie I feel, but idk I only know Rogue, I only know logs 
dark vigil
mm is nowhere near close to boomie lol
proud reef
Hello guys, I was willing to roll rogue for next raid, but only Assass attracts me, I was wondering if it was really as bad as Rankings say it is
inner granite
@balmy condor Hey how are sin sims looking if youve seen anything else for the ptr?
rigid wyvern
My closest thing with that was me and an affli both parsing 95 and him being up like 300k damage
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> Hey how are sin sims looking if youve seen anything else ...
pins
dark vigil
@proud reef i said this already. play it if u want
its rough but better than it "shows"
inner granite
@balmy condor How about Doomblade + Zoldycks if we get double leggo?
cunning surge
Yeah I don't know jack about other classes lmao, save for maybe Mage that's about it tho
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> How about Doomblade + Zoldycks if we get double leggo?
who knows
inner granite
gotcha so sin is still about 300 dps behind outlaw
cunning surge
Yeah I am not having much hope for doubles, like we had it in Legion, but who knows what the hell's going on in this Xpac
feral merlin
Doubles probably in 9.2, maybe two soulbinds in 9.1
pastel notch
How big do we think this SnD change for Sin is?
fleet whale
it's a qol change
feral merlin
We will likely be able to add "runes" to our legos per the information from today
fleet whale
but it's not like a massive dps gain or anything
feral merlin
Ala bfa corruption - a quote from blizz
balmy condor
please god not corruption
feral merlin
"expand the powers of your Soulbinds and Conduits;" basically more soulbinds or just stronger conduits
dark vigil
corruption was a good concept, but badly implemented
winter gale
Found it
balmy condor
yikers
winter gale
Its Council, you were right @balmy condor
balmy condor
yeah assumed as much
rigid wyvern
filter to boss damage?
dark vigil
rigid wyvern
that rogue balance tho
winter gale
This is a screenshot but I believe this guy didnt even target the boss 😂
balmy condor
council is a starfall meme fest
if you look at some of the top boomy logs
they do more damage with starfall on the adds
than the rest of the raid in total
rigid wyvern
disgusting
balmy condor
yeh its nuts
rigid wyvern
why doesnt crimson tempest have a 40yd constant bleed
balmy condor
well starfall is 200 yards
rigid wyvern
is it actually?
balmy condor
yes
balmy condor
tidal gorge
That log's raid comp looks similar to mine. We have enough of the fotm stuff that I'm benched on prog for now 😦
balmy condor
idk
maybe wrong link
if it's 40
then it might be radius 40
so total 80 from edge to edge
either way
shit is bonkers
doesn't even hurt their single target that much
cause dot extension and shit
agile geode
the situation will be the same even in 9.0.5
loud light
step one, increase fan of knives radius to 40 yards and it doesn't hit things that are out of combat
step two, buff it some more since starfall is still better
balmy condor
well you can't really compare the two
fok is a generator, and starfall is a spender
loud light
obviously lol
agile geode
kinda weird
balmy condor
its basically CT on steroids
dark vigil
still more builds to go for ptr
agile geode
i hope so
main crypt
Rogue bros, do we hold on, do we stand fast
main crypt
I have faith
rigid wyvern
I aint leaving lol
I think the biggest think is still raid utility, not even in the sense that it is "mandatory" for dps / mythic progression guilds or whatever
just cause it feels shitty not being able to do anything for the raid mechanics wise
main crypt
Yep!
But doubt they will make a drastic change and give rogue a random raid util/ buff
"reeeee"
fleet whale
you never know
rigid wyvern
Just give us "Stretches" buff, we give everyone a yoga class and give everyone 5% avoidance, easy mandatory class lul
cunning surge
Yeah I've been with Sin since 5.4, I ain't leaving now lmao
little moth
cunning surge
WoD Rogue was fun, Sin could pulp, and I loved the Combat cleave on Iron Maidens
safe canopy
cunning surge
I think MoP and WoD had it
thick jacinth
Honestly just want them to add the execute leggos passive into vendetta.
All the leggos just seem shit.
azure carbon
What do you mean, you don't want to build tiny toxic blade?
cinder nymph
dh got darkness, and took our smoke bomb away
dark vigil
would be cool if we got like avoid raid buff or something
would be in theme with rogues
brittle pawn
bosses shouldn't drop loot unless there's a rogue in raid 
dark vigil
make my garrote one shot
polar epoch
bosses shouldn't drop loot unless there's a rogue in raid <:Pepega:7113434465893...
Like that idea
echo cargo
new rogue passive- bosses have a 25% chance to drop more loot
wide hawk
make Tricks lower a friendly target's damage by 10% and increase ours by 10% 
stoic needle
i really want us to have a short CD damage amp that doesn't have 100% uptime
dark vigil
tricks boomie during convoke and ca
stoic needle
so if you dont press it nobody gets to parse
dark vigil
stoic needle
that'll teach em
distant urchin
so i just leveled my rogue (rolled DK this xpac) and i saw the changes to flag that might happen. any thoughts on convent or still just go NF
dark vigil
flag will be very good
dark vigil
but thgeres more ptr builds to come
brittle pawn
make Tricks lower a friendly target's damage by 10% and increase ours by 10% <:c...
must be accompanied by a /s silly rabbit, tricks are for kids
wide hawk
I'm very happy with SnD being refreshed by Envenom again, but losing the 10% regen is lame. Hope they reverse or tweak that :)
dark vigil
no need
venemous wound neturalizes that
and its a buff for aoe
they changed venemous woudn to be 7 energy per bleed tick to 8
wide hawk
I like more energy 🤤
dark vigil
IS FLAG GOOD NOW 
WHISPYR SHOULD I REROLL
the energy regen was like max 100 energy per min @wide hawk
or some shit
like i sasid the venemous wound thing will basically neutralize it plus not having to refresh snd manually
and buff for multi dotting
wide hawk
not sure where to put SnD on my keybinds now, if we're only really applying it once
gloomy fern
hello i am now a sin player
dark vigil
there's gonna be some times where there's intermissions
where you'll still need to reapply it
but yeah you can put it on a less used keybind
so if you had it on q now or something as an example
move it to like shift q
just an example
wide hawk
yeah, will be something like that
tight ravine
dark vigil
important but main hand is mroe important
balmy condor
not very
short hamlet
@dark vigil IS SIN GOOD NOW?
short hamlet
Should I REROLL venthyr?
stoic needle
thin gate
Guys i just read the 9.0.5 Patch notes, Seems like doomblade gonna be even stronger.
What about the Vendetta legendary (1second per 30 Energy, is it gonna be viable)
late birch
Not sure if im braindead but do people not use shiv as assa?
all logs I've looked at i dont see shiv on timeline
thin gate
I thought Well placed steel =pog
late birch
exactly, thats why i feel braindead
low girder
all logs I've looked at i dont see shiv on timeline
shiv isn't counted in casts on WCL, it's not tracked properly by the combat log so it doesn't show up
thin gate
Even envenom= nature damage
low girder
but rest assured you shiv on cd
late birch
ah okay thanks , and on opener i assume you use it before going into vendetta?
thin gate
@everyone Whats the meta gonna be
rough grove
ah okay thanks , and on opener i assume you use it before going into vendetta?
You vendetta then shiv I believe.
thin gate
Master Assassin opener is mutilate slicendice mutilate garrote rupture vendetta Sepsis shiv
prisma monolithBOT
low girder
openers are in there
thin gate
Mata do u know sonething about the 9.05
late birch
ty
low girder
i think the RH one is outdated so pick one of the others
low girder
Mata do u know sonething about the 9.05
what you mean?
balmy condor
mata can you tell me every change in 9.0.5
in alphabetical order
starting from Q, and going backwards
thin gate
Master assassin is getting nerfed doomblade and slicendice + Vendetta legenary Buff
Do u know what the Go to legendaries are yet
stray ivy
need a 30% buff to FOK
low girder
those are all in the pins, the MA nerf is only impacting trinkets
legendary choice hasn't changed afaik
thin gate
So pretty much doomblade for Single Target
stoic needle
What did they do
stray ivy
35% more chain lightening dmage, 70% more to earthquake
stoic needle
Doomblade doesn't outsim dashing, and neither will be better than zoldyck overall
thin gate
Aight tyvm
stoic needle
Doomblade is bis for coolness and big dick envenoms
stoic needle
Yeah maybe in 9.4
low girder
lmao fair
frozen jasper
Doomblade is bis for coolness and big dick envenoms
lol thats a good way to put it
teal bloom
Which is the optimal order after vendetta and before vanishing for master assassin talent, Sepsis->Mutilate->shiv or Sepsis->Shiv->mutilate OR Mutilate->sepsis-> shiv 🤔
stoic needle
I'm probably gonna upgrade mine just to see how big of an envenom I can get on sludgefist
stoic needle
Which is the optimal order after vendetta and before vanishing for master assass...
No muti, build to 5p before vendetta
You'd do mut > sepsis > shiv > vanish > envenom > mut > envenom
Since shiv and sepsis both give 1cp
thin gate
- empowered sepsis explo due shiv after sepsis
teal bloom
is this correct, mutilate -> SnD -> mutilate -> garrote -> rupture -> vendetta -> mutilate -> Sepsis -> shiv -> vanish -> envenom -> mutilate -> envenom
stoic needle
No
Vendetta only once you hit 5cp
So after rupture, you do muti, sepsis, shiv, vendetta
Then vanish
stoic needle
It barely does
balmy condor
vendetta there is fine
stoic needle
All of this is miniscule dps gains regardless but the idea is to spend more time in vendetta envenoming
balmy condor
actually now that I think about it
I think your vendetta is actually just strictly worse
stoic needle
How
balmy condor
the mutilate is in the vendetta window regardless of when you cast it right
like if you mut vend, you would end up mutting later
so the amount there wouldn't change
so that's whatever
but in your opener
you're actually just missing sepsis ticks
teal bloom
I find myself pretty energy starved after using rupture in the opener so the energy gain so i've felt that the energy gain is nice there
stoic needle
1 GCD worth of sepsis ticks?
balmy condor
yeh
plus I think you can make an argument for vendetta earlier for energy regen going into shiv window
rather than starving yourself, shivving, and then relying on the vendetta energy
teal bloom
ops 2x felt energy gain
teal bloom
Okay thanks 😄
stoic needle
In my mind being able to fit in an extra envenom at the end of the vendetta buff makes up for the 1 GCD or so of missed sepsis ticks
balmy condor
sure, but that's not a claim you can make
stoic needle
Why not?
balmy condor
because how many envenoms you're fitting isn't a matter of vendetta on 5cp
stoic needle
It's moreso the time you spend building during the vendetta window
balmy condor
yeah but it's 1 gcd you're changing from a mut to an envenom
and then you have 20 seconds
stoic needle
Well he was asking about vendetta shiv sepsis vanish
balmy condor
of crit rng
stoic needle
So it's more than 1 GCD
balmy condor
fine, 2
stoic needle
Well technically 3 now that I go back to read it
stoic needle
In my mind, it's like how you try not to refresh SnD rupture and garotte during shiv. It's fine if you do, but slightly better if you don't because you spend more of the buff doing direct damage with envenoms
balmy condor
sims refresh garrote during shiv all the time
stoic needle
Hence why I said it's fine if you do
balmy condor
and rupture, now that I think about it
stoic needle
Cuz it's better not to hold shiv
So maybe I could've prefaced it by saying it's not a big deal
balmy condor
the vendetta conditional is actually just checking for rupture as well
iirc
idk
I haven't seen gains from any of it
we're talking about changes on such a micro scale
stoic needle
Yeah I said that earlier
balmy condor
yeh
idk
I would try and find some optimal opener through sims
but it all shows as a wash
stoic needle
But you cba?
balmy condor
no I've tried
low girder
so what i'm hearing is just press buttons do dam
balmy condor
it's just nothing is a gain
stoic needle
Where's that koji screenshot
balmy condor
like in sims, with MA, it opens with sepsis mut snd gar shiv rupture
into vend vanish mut env mut
which when you're looking at it
sounds like a fucking disaster
stoic needle
It really does
balmy condor
but I actually haven't seen anything that's a gain
2cp rupture in there
that's fine
sepsis from MA
that's fine
stoic needle
My brain just can't comprehend that sepsis into shiv isn't a gain
Especially with wps
balmy condor
shiv like 4 seconds into sepsis
also fine
rupture directly after a shiv
no problem there
vanish into generate enven generate
versus getting 2 envenoms
stoic needle
Maybe if sepsis did convoke levels of damage it'd be different?
balmy condor
nothing there either
like I fiddled with all of those parts
and in the end it's just meep
if sepsis did convoke damage
then miki's thing with the weird sync on niya nonsense would have some teeth
but sadly sepsis is basically just a garrote on crack
so
dark vigil
why rupture right after shiv
stoic needle
Bc it doesn't matter I guess
balmy condor
because it's using shiv as a cp builder in that situation
to get the rupture out earlier
balmy condor
I mean, I think the moral of the story
dark vigil
what if shiv
balmy condor
is opener logic
dark vigil
worked on nature dmg and bleeds
balmy condor
is actually just irrelevant
dark vigil
actually scratch that just make my garrote one shot bosses
low girder
like i said, press buttons do dam
stoic needle
Make envenom benefit from zoldyck 
Give us undisputed best execute in the game
Warrior? Never heard of her
dark vigil
idk
stoic needle
You can search for his posts in this channel if you want to see the sims for yourself
Imagine if next tier they make a boss that starts at 30% 
Like old vaelstrasz
stoic needle
Tbh if council wasn't such a clusterfuck of aoe shit we'd be really good on that fight
3 execute phases
dark vigil
can also get multiple ruptures out for sick energy gen
actually now u mention it
let me check
stoic needle
If they buff zoldyck they'd have to buff the rest of the legendaries too probably
dark vigil
yep
if u change council
to damage to bosses
sin is top 5
balance is actually really low
stoic needle
Wow look at that
dark vigil
sin is near top for dmg to bosses in sire as well
but theres so few parses
im surprised its so low for sludge, i guess you would really need to run the vendetta cd legendary for minmaxing sludge parse
well, next patch anyways
stoic needle
Sin is just naturally advantaged on fights with big beefy adds or multiple bosses
I hope we get more council style bosses this exp
dark vigil
we're top 4 for artificer
low girder
i wanna meet the guy who convinced his guild he should play demo
dark vigil
demo has a really strong meme build
stoic needle
100% chance he's a guild leader
dark vigil
but you have to play around it
you have to rallying cry on his cds instead of using it as a defensive
and ancestral vigor totem from shaman
low girder
9 parses lol
stoic needle
The damage of the pet scales with hp?
stoic needle
Yeah it doesn't
dark vigil
why its much lower for hungering and high for artificer
if anything rogues should be slightly lower for artificer cause clearing traps
and even during downtime u'll have ur dots ticking
should be higher than sub and outlaw
low girder
if you're really trying to parse you're not cloaking for traps
low girder
that's probably why
short hamlet
dont the adds need to die, though
dark vigil
it doesnt make sense
short hamlet
so isn't add damage actually relevant
dark vigil
theres no adds to kill in hungering or artificer
short hamlet
no, council
dark vigil
eh
boss dmg is more important
to phase
the slower you get through the fight the harder it is for healers
low girder
they need to die but you don't need that much hitting them
that's why the boomkins are so high
well, part of it
dark vigil
natural cleaving is usually enough
at least for waiters
sin not bad for attendant either
stoic needle
I have some small faith that blizzard will eventually rub it's two brain cells together and put us in a good spot
Or we'll get a boost from the new system
I knew they wouldn't leave us hanging like we were on release
20% of aura buffs later...
dark vigil
we'll see
there's more ptr builds coming before 9.0.5
and then 9.1
9.1 will be big shakeup there was one line specifically
stoic needle
Yup
dark vigil
expand the powers of your Soulbinds and Conduits
dark vigil
plus i'd imagine with a full new raid and dungeon that we might get new leggos too
but i dont know
but 9.1 will have some good shakeup thats when they do more drastic stuff
stoic needle
tier set conduits
stoic needle
You never know they like to leave surprises
And ion said they were coming back in some form