#assassination
bleak sedge
especially compared to the classes that are also better in other fights. Looking at fire mage, feral druid, shadow priest, affli WL, unholy DK
raven locust
Theres a grand total of a thousand logs on Artificer for both rogue ST specs
We also bring zero raid utility
bleak sedge
we basically are useless XD trhere is no reason to bring a rogue
raven locust
The damage is not fine 
vestal wren
if you want to compare on relatively patchworky fights you need to look at normal or heroic logs
main forge
What I see is a bunch of classes that can bring buffs and raid stuff, and still do more damage than us.
raven locust
Exeo is secretly a WW main trying to sabotage Rogue buffs
onyx wind
if you want to compare on relatively patchworky fights you need to look at norma...
Sure, but those fights arent played by good players anymore
somber forge
rogues bring nothing but damage. If they aren't the top melee they are subpar in comparison to a class that brings more damage and more utility
being subpar and being garbage may as well be the same thing if you raid at a high enough level
lament dove
but this is always the case
onyx wind
This has always been the case
Since the dawn of time
why is it an issue now
Because we arent a top3 spec?
raven locust
Our ST specs have either no cleave or very poor and the same is for AoE while classes/specs are doing more ST damage and stomp our AoE/Cleave with the same spec is unreal
bleak sedge
wdym. Assa topped the charts in antoros as far as i remember
somber forge
cuz in previous expansions rogues were the top melee in multiple tiers
and you actually wanted to bring them
raven locust
A purely ST spec should not be bottom/middle of pack, to argue our ST is fine is beyond me
bleak sedge
sub was busted in uldir
main forge
Us not being a Top 3 spec wouldn't be an issue if we brought other useful things to raid. but even what we do bring, other classes do it better.
vestal wren
rogue was not always the absolute best
main forge
That is the whole issue.
raven locust
Sub was busted because of it's synergy on Zul, it's ST was just good
vestal wren
but you still brought it for survivability and utility
knotty grove
rogues weren't fotm since ToS
bleak sedge
Sub was busted because of it's synergy on Zul, it's ST was just good
but it had a reason to be brought 😄
knotty grove
they were good for boss damage, but not fotm
raven locust
Rogues were insanely good in EN/Nighthold if you had the correct legendaries
main forge
Rogues were pretty flavor of the month when we got announced getting Lego daggers back in the olden days
raven locust
Mutilate Ring for EN progression was actually unreal
vestal wren
but encounter design changed and our immunities are often rather... not so relevant
onyx wind
Because most soaks are physical XD
vestal wren
what rly brings it down to "ouptut"
knotty grove
the fact that they make cloak not work for some of the abilities it should is also annoying
onyx wind
They make every raidwide mechanic magical and simple soak physical
bleak sedge
plus CN is a range dd raid anyways. Playing melee in CN is a pain
onyx wind
So DK's can AMZ and rogues can cry
vestal wren
we have multiple issues with our survivals that not a lot of ppl talk about
somber forge
rogue is a shadow of its former wod self 😔
vestal wren
e.g. how you can die even with cheat death due to certain encounter/cheat death constrains (that shouldn't kill you)
charred raptor
How long does it take to catchup if you switch covenants? Anyone done it recently?
main forge
Feint needs to go back to having no CD, no GCD, and not costing energy imo.
onyx wind
How long does it take to catchup if you switch covenants? Anyone done it recentl...
Depends on how much you play
misty holly
How long does it take to catchup if you switch covenants? Anyone done it recentl...
Is Venthyr good enough now to switch to?
raven locust
You can catch up in a couple days if you grind it
somber forge
i can't even remember the last time I pressed feint and expected it do something
onyx wind
Feint pretty much doesnt cost energy with the conduit
bleak sedge
i can't even remember the last time I pressed feint and expected it do something
pvp only for me
vestal wren
feint is actually quite strong on slg
halcyon grail
Remember when they promised us crimson vial having utilities gained from pick pocket and that never happened?
main forge
Feint pretty much doesnt cost energy with the conduit
Okay, that is not true... it still costs energy.
halcyon grail
But they still nerfed CV?
charred raptor
@misty holly I don't know yet but I think there's going to be some great synergy with mut and venthyr
vestal wren
esp. if combined with elusivness
onyx wind
Remember when they promised us crimson vial having utilities gained from pick po...
Very glad this didnt become a thing
raven locust
@halcyon grail They nerfed Crimson Vials health regen for that reason and when they scrapped it's idea never reverted the nerf LOL
onyx wind
Imagine having to pickpocket
bleak sedge
remember when we could actually pick a lock in bfa?
bright bane
Is there any recent update to spreedsheat calculation with PTR updates?
From fuu's ?
main forge
Crimson vial only doing 20% HP when any paladin can get a 50% HP at a click of a button is outrageous
trim zinc
and vial is a "hot"
raven locust
Comparing us to Paladins isn't fair though, their healing is massively broken
main forge
Okay what about boomkin regrowth?
frigid kestrel
Do we know if the SnD nerf is intended or not yet?
main forge
I can get like 5 casts off and top myself off before running out of mana
raven locust
I still wouldn't compare us to boomies
onyx wind
Blizzard official patch notes
Its so hard to compare performance when the fights are as they are
main forge
Okay what about DK death strike
vital tapir
so many classes now have similar immunities too
onyx wind
The only real outlier is affli lock
main forge
We straight up have the weakest self heal in the game.
raven locust
Death Strike is really bad in raid settings since AoE mechanics don't count towards it's healing
lament dove
btw, is it only me who has to use crimson vial AND usually clos as well on every pride not to die? is this connected to me having low (7% if that's low) versa or something?
raven locust
Whats your ilvl
lament dove
in 15s with 217 ilevel
bright bane
We straight up have the weakest self heal in the game.
Hunter's way worse
raven locust
7% vers is pretty low though, even if you had 30% thats only 15% damage reduction
onyx wind
Losing 10% energy regen compared to getting 1 energy on venomous wounds - is this a net gain or loss?
trim zinc
Hunter's way worse
true
frigid kestrel
Envenom refreshing SnD is back, nice. When was the last time I seen that, Wrath?
raven locust
Legion
frigid kestrel
Ahh
trim zinc
Losing 10% energy regen compared to getting 1 energy on venomous wounds - is thi...
imo good for aoe cleave and bad for st
onyx wind
btw, is it only me who has to use crimson vial AND usually clos as well on every...
I have 25% vers on my rogue and my healer does 6-8k hps
I think most healers should be able to keep anyone alive on a pride
raven locust
If you're close to dying on Pride the healer is bad or your groups DPS is too low causing it to gain stacks
onyx wind
^
main forge
I wouldn't compare us to a mobile Ranged class that can move and DPS
onyx wind
Let me check
frigid kestrel
If you're close to dying on Pride the healer is bad or your groups DPS is too lo...
This in general, except this week. Grievous with Pride is legit aids in most pugs.
raven locust
I have 19% crit, 19% haste and 23% vers on my Rogue
main forge
Yeah I run 10-14's and don't have an issue with prides killing me. or even getting close... Make sure you are 3rd on the damage meters, if you aren't, you probably should get other DPS to run with.
onyx wind
Or be a sub and top pride dmg B)
main forge
well... that's typically what I play anyhow
lament dove
although I don't pvp, hence the low versa, I guess I'm the only one in the world right now...
main forge
Honestly sub on pride is nice, you can pop cooldowns and still get them again when the buff is about to fall off.
onyx wind
pride is one of the reasons sub is viable in high keys
frigid kestrel
To much haste 😂🤣😂
trim zinc
dude i was 25% haste and now i only have 14%;-;
onyx wind
Turns out the only helm from CN has fat haste on it :)
main forge
rogues do get the advantage of being able to just look at explosive and watch them pop which is nice when compared to other classes.
but that affix doesn't come up enough.
raven locust
Explosive is annoying, I always have to kill them
onyx wind
lol
knotty grove
just put healer on explosive job
onyx wind
its a tank/healer job
raven locust
lol
knotty grove
they have like 100
frigid kestrel
They die from one attack
main forge
I think the 10-11's I was doing they had like 600 hp i swear
raven locust
I don't run keys much now but whenever I pug 15s if I dont kill them they almost always explode, even when I play with my guild :omeglul:
onyx wind
Also, can someone tell me if the stats from shoulder+doomblade outweighs crafting dashing?
quasi scroll
is it true that Master Assasin (talent or trinket) works on Nec Wake spears?
if you throw the spear from stealth you get the full crit?
onyx wind
Oh, shoulders/boots have same stats
frigid kestrel
is it true that Master Assasin (talent or trinket) works on Nec Wake spears?
Not for long
knotty grove
is it true that Master Assasin (talent or trinket) works on Nec Wake spears?
it does now but gonna be changed
onyx wind
nvm
frigid kestrel
But yes
knotty grove
it's in #tc-updates
onyx wind
Judging by sims, it seems that crafting zoldyck for pure ST is better, since u get stats on chest
Am i missing something
Legs* :)
raven locust
Compared to Doomblade?
Zoldyck pulls ahead with more haste if I remember correctly, it also has the benefit of being an execute lego
outer cosmos
So, doomblade is still 2nd best legy?
gentle gyro
depends for what
outer cosmos
Raid
onyx wind
Comparing relatively simply:
Zoldyck+leg stats = 13% increase
Dashing+boots stats = 12.3% increase
gentle gyro
execute being so valuable puts it at #1 imo
trim zinc
imagine hhaving both 😄
onyx wind
Thanks, will be my first craft then
raven locust
^ What Flint said, even if it were slightly behind I would build Zoldyck over the others
outer cosmos
execute being so valuable puts it at #1 imo
Okay
raven locust
I know, just saying how valuable executes are
outer cosmos
Can u guys post me what zoldycks effect was?
gentle gyro
30% enahnced damage
onyx wind
Alright, i agree
raven locust
30% poison/bleed damage at 30% health
gentle gyro
outer cosmos
Cheers!
trim zinc
https://i.imgur.com/uXu32cx.png
lol do u use 2 on use trinkets???
gentle gyro
getting past the first 50% of a boss is usually easy
i have nothing better
i would LOVE a proc trinket or just stats
outer cosmos
Again, zoldycks vs doomblade, which is more worth in nathria?
raven locust
Double on-use is good at the moment anyway
gentle gyro
~~ i don't have enough keybinds~~
raven locust
Sire+Skulker or Shattered is better than most trinkets unless you have a high Phial
@outer cosmos Zoldycks is better than Doomblade atm
Especially on Sludgefist and super good on Sire if you're not gonna play Outlaw
onyx wind
Just a little tip guys
trim zinc
ii think doomblade is kinda fun
i like the high hitting envenon
main forge
I enjoy the heck out of IQD but with Sub it lines up perfectly.... Does it play nice with Sin?
onyx wind
You can prepop inerva trinket and get max usage out of 2x on use trinkets
outer cosmos
ii think doomblade is kinda fun
i like the high hitting envenon
That's what I play. 13k envenom are standard 🤷♂️
trim zinc
crit??
outer cosmos
Ye
raven locust
Unless you're in a progression focused guild your choice of Legendary isn't that important
knotty grove
before u build resources for that envenom, outlaw is gonna dispatch twice in that time 
trim zinc
before u build resources for that envenom, outlaw is gonna dispatch twice in tha...
and how much time we dont have legendary, 70% of the fight ;-;
gentle gyro
in which universe is outlaw 3 buttons
raven locust
Assass and Outlaw have the same buttons basically
trim zinc
like i have my zold but i think that i could do more dmg with doomblade
raven locust
He probably meant buttons you press often which are SS/Evis and Pistol SHot
outer cosmos
Maybe I go outlaw xD, getting completely new gear 🤣
raven locust
Outlaw and Assass share a lot of gear
outer cosmos
He probably meant buttons you press often which are SS/Evis and Pistol SHot
Right
raven locust
If you have PvP items it's easy to switch
trim zinc
like i have my zold but i think that i could do more dmg with doomblade
i just do hc and first mythic bosses anyway
knotty grove
ye, u want haste for outlaw too so gear is kinda shared
gentle gyro
the last 30% are the most important @trim zinc
execute is so valuable you'd bring a dps that has it over one that doesn't even if the overall dps is lower
trim zinc
even for a hc raider and like 2 bosses on mythic??
outer cosmos
So you guys say, since Ive got 23% haste, and crit vers after, I could go outlaw without probs?
gentle gyro
obviously depends on the boss but generally yes
it's more valuable for progression raiding
knotty grove
I would say a bit too much haste but just sim it
gentle gyro
but if you are "only" 2/10M and do heroic then your spec literally doesn't matter
raven locust
@outer cosmos Yes those stats are fine
gentle gyro
i'd argue even if you are 10/10 now it owuldn't matter
raven locust
I play Outlaw with 19% Crit/Haste and 23% Vers
outer cosmos
<@!218506150608371713> Yes those stats are fine
Interesting
gentle gyro
the meta specs are mostly only important for like world first-tenth
i'm 5/10 on my main and play the rogue in our alt raids and i regularly beat main dps with it
knotty grove
I mean if u can perform very well on rogue, u are still viable dps for raid
onyx wind
Having a raid group consisting of good specs rather than bad specs make the game easier tho
gentle gyro
so all that matters is that you have fun playing the spec
onyx wind
I mean if u can perform very well on rogue, u are still viable dps for raid
If you can perform well and others perform poorly*
gentle gyro
as a dps i'd be more valuable on sin rogue than unholy dk
because i can play one better than the other
outer cosmos
And you got cloak for soaks xD
drifting cosmos
mechanic slaves as always
outer cosmos
Does this work on general's?
gentle gyro
for what?
gentle gyro
what part of it
i haven't played that fight with my rogue on hc yet
so idk what cloak blocks
outer cosmos
I know that cloak works, but I doubt that amz does 🧐
gentle gyro
how does cloak interact with it?
main forge
Rogue is fine in normal. But pushing Heroic and Mythic, we become really useless shitbags
gentle gyro
do you not place down a void?
outer cosmos
0 dmg but you get a debuff stack
gentle gyro
the 0 dmg part is useless as it doesn't kill you anyways
trim zinc
true
outer cosmos
Rogue is fine in normal. But pushing Heroic and Mythic, we become really useless...
Nah, Iam 10/10 hc and top dps in single target fights
gentle gyro
then you need better dps pals :p
onyx wind
Rogue is fine on ST
outer cosmos
🤷♂️ the setup is good, but shadows are op
gentle gyro
sin rogue actually can beat other classes if the fight goes long enough
raven locust
There's not way you can say that unless you raid in a casual guild
gentle gyro
30% execute is no joke
but if other players are good
the fight becomes shorter
the execute gets shorter
thus you deal less overall
trim zinc
sin rogue actually can beat other classes if the fight goes long enough
if the 30% phase is long enough thats true
bleak sedge
sin rogue actually can beat other classes if the fight goes long enough
thats not how percentages work
outer cosmos
sin rogue actually can beat other classes if the fight goes long enough
That's why my bar is rising towards the end 🤣
raven locust
99th percentile pulls and im near the bottom of the meters, class just isn't good my guy
Unless it's Outlaw fights then its a different story
bleak sedge
you either need to loose members or the 3rd phase needs to be longer than the other phases which normally isnt the case
normal mist
Has the PTR change to SND been discussed already?
raven locust
Yea it has
normal mist
Damn it I'm late to the party. Any tldr?
trim zinc
every one hates SnD
main forge
We should have had it 3 months ago?
raven locust
It's in the pins @normal mist
normal mist
Thx
main forge
6 months ago even.
raven locust
They cancel eachother out
onyx wind
So its just a net buff
main forge
Agreed.
frigid kestrel
Ye I read over everything
raven locust
SnD was never an issue, it only felt bad because Assassination has absolutely garbage energy regen
trim zinc
So its just a net buff
its like maybe 8 more envenons per fight
onyx wind
No i dont mean cut to the chase
main forge
It felt bad because it takes combo points from our damage finisher
onyx wind
i mean energy regen removal and +1 energy on bleeds
Because if those two cancel eachother out, sub is dead
normal mist
Question: does the energy reneg part got removed?
main forge
It wouldn't be bad if combo points were more precious than the ring that frodo carries.
raven locust
Assass is already better than Sub imo on the fight you'd go ST
trim zinc
r2 SnD wasnt only for sin?
raven locust
The 10% energy was only for Assass
main forge
And even then it didn't feel like anything
trim zinc
so doesnt change nothing for sub
raven locust
Assassinations APM sit around 42-46, thats why it didnt feel like much of anything
drifting cosmos
what spec has high apm?
raven locust
Outlaw
main forge
Sub and Outlaw
drifting cosmos
like how much
raven locust
Outlaw is around 72 APM
outer cosmos
Has second highest in the game
Who got the highest?
onyx wind
Assass is already better than Sub imo on the fight you'd go ST
Exactly, so assa should beat sub in all aspects now
raven locust
Only spec higher is Ret
drifting cosmos
why is that ? lol
outer cosmos
Lol
raven locust
They have buttons to press why else?
raven locust
@onyx wind If Sub gets no changes it is dead but I highly doubt it will make it to patch without buffs as well
outer cosmos
I thought about monk
outer cosmos
<@!224128570472136714> If Sub gets no changes it is dead but I highly doubt it w...
Still strong in pvp 2v2
onyx wind
Pretty sure there are no buffs they could give sub that arent straight up aura buffs
outer cosmos
Just mash kick/shadowstep/sprint/cloak/evasion off cd
Is tiger rush from monk also on gcd? 🧐
drifting cosmos
or depends on boss fight next raid
raven locust
PvP isn't relevant to this though, they usually separate buffs/nerfs
drifting cosmos
could be more sub friendly
main forge
Rupture does nothing for sub really. They could easily give Rupture a nice buff.
shy sky
Id prefer something more interesting to buff than rupture lol. Perhaps completely take away shadowblades and add a more powerful and shorter cd ability
main forge
I enjoy SB, but this is the Sin chat. SB is a great CD.
shy sky
Like a zed ult from league, just in wow lol. Use abilities and then your cd explodes for a portion of the damage you did in a short duration
You mentioned sub in this chat ironically lmao
outer cosmos
Like a zed ult from league, just in wow lol. Use abilities and then your cd expl...
That would more fit to sin
raven locust
Thats just the Hellfire Citadel trinket on a CD
trim zinc
Like a zed ult from league, just in wow lol. Use abilities and then your cd expl...
"old" touch of death
shy sky
Idk about wow, I just thought about zed from league lol
raven locust
Vendetta being a player buff and not a target debuff would be a nice QoL change too
shy sky
Having shadow clones would be dope lol
trim zinc
Vendetta being a player buff and not a target debuff would be a nice QoL change ...
idk i like vendetta the way it is
shy sky
You'd like it more if it was a player aura doe lol
raven locust
It would make Assassination quite a lot better for target swaps and priority damage if it was a buff
shy sky
But thematically, doesn't make sense, you have a vendetta against a targeg
proud ore
I haven’t seen any sin in arenas or raids and I’m dying to play it man how do I sell myself my excuse is lack of haste
main forge
It would be nice if Vendetta was a target debuff that the raid also benefited from.
give us some raid utility blizz
trim zinc
It would be nice if Vendetta was a target debuff that the raid also benefited fr...
THAT WOULD BE INSANE
raven locust
Not really, you could have a Vendetta against an entire faction or group
trim zinc
imo
proud ore
Do sin so well vs pally spam rn
raven locust
Doesn't just mean singular person
main forge
Do sin so well vs pally spam rn
Yeah, just don't come out of stealth.
onyx wind
What stats do we put on leggos?
trim zinc
What stats do we put on leggos?
i do haste/vers
raven locust
Pally can dispel poisons, it's a little annoying in PvP
onyx wind
What are the best scaling stats
raven locust
5 stack of Wound instantly gone
onyx wind
Since we are not allowed to ever change stats
raven locust
The only important stat for Assass is haste, the others are roughly the same
outer cosmos
Does a haste cap exist?
raven locust
Haste will slightly bump up with the Venomous Wound change but not much
No Haste is best for Assass at any amount
main forge
Does wound even stack to 5 anymore? Thought it was 3....
proud ore
How much haste is my hang up I have like 2% on my sub… I feel it’s my Hangup on even trying
main forge
aww makes sense
shy sky
I think there's a diminishing return from stats past 30% from what I heard
raven locust
I have like 25% or so haste on Assass and it's still quite a bit higher than my second highest
main forge
yeah the DR they have on stats now is going to make it weird.
proud ore
There’s diminishing returns in a sense that’s not what you think man
It’s not like stun DR
it’s more like some crust is more effective than mass haste only
Crit
raven locust
You want Haste on every piece of gear but a mix of Crit/Vers and little mastery
proud ore
What about pvp
trim zinc
You want Haste on every piece of gear but a mix of Crit/Vers and little mastery
thats haaaaaaaaaaard
shy sky
Haste vers
proud ore
Like how much haste you running tgo
shy sky
I'm sub rn, so my haste is like 3%, feels terrible to play assa lol
raven locust
Are you asking how much Haste till you can switch to Assassination or just how much you want?
proud ore
I know I haven’t bothered haste gear is just slowly stacking up
I’m just wondering what people are using so I can set a goal
trim zinc
Are you asking how much Haste till you can switch to Assassination or just how m...
always swicth to sin
sin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
raven locust
Most people have 22-26% haste on Assassination
You aim to have haste on every piece of gear you can
raven locust
You can Sim to see how your Assass DPS is though, it's still good even at 18%
proud ore
I’m talking pvp sorry just not many sin in pvp channel
trim zinc
my stats rn
outer cosmos
I would not recommend it in 2s
Got to 1800 using pve gear and no trinket in 2v2 as sin xD
raven locust
You get focused so hard as a Rogue and relegate to being a CC bot for your Fire mage or other partner
proud ore
My real reason is my shagrin with pallies and I had no idea Wounded stacked 5x
raven locust
Sin is more than capable at that rating in 2s but climbing higher you just run into so many problems
proud ore
Well being focused as a rogue is fine and a waste of tgeir time often?
raven locust
You would hate paladins even more as Assassination, cleanse poison is very frustrating
proud ore
Are paladins axrusllt broken or am I a whiny bitch
raven locust
They're the best healer by far
proud ore
Dude Ret even
raven locust
Ret needs some massive nerfs, Divine Toll needs to be deleted from the game
proud ore
Like 2v2 boards rfe pally will do more than eberyone combined in damage every time
raven locust
This season is actual garbage because of balancing
proud ore
Why is a favored 3s sin pair
It is there’s like massive front runners wat too far ahead
raven locust
Sin has very high pressure and pairs nicely with other classes
4s Silence is really good
If you dont kill people in your burst as Sub you're kinda just a CC bot at that point
proud ore
So many situations wheee you really doubt you could win unless you were a god wirg your life partner on ur team
raven locust
While Assassination has constant damage
outer cosmos
While Assassination has constant damage
Yep, constant pressure
raven locust
Assassination can do some insane damage with Vendetta, not Ret or moonkin but it surprises people
proud ore
Yea I have played them both extensively I think I’d have swapped long ago if sub didn’t hsve poisons
outer cosmos
Assassination can do some insane damage with Vendetta, not Ret or moonkin but it...
That's how I got the most kills
The kinda didn't expect the damage
proud ore
Lazy question ans I know you hate this but tips on haste gear ?
raven locust
PvP gear with Haste/Vers
proud ore
Very few I have them
proud ore
Mage rogue dkes well
raven locust
Raid has a couple good pieces like the Inerva ring and next patch you can upgrade M+ gear
Sire Denathrius Ring is also very good
proud ore
M+ > nathria? Sorry not at pc
raven locust
Nah M+ gear is capped at 210 atm
gleaming eagle
Upgrade m+ gear from vault?
proud ore
Cant until u loot from patch whenever it drops
raven locust
You wont be able to upgrade existing M+ gear but idk how vault will work with Upgrades when it comes out
proud ore
So far what I stated is the current status
shy sky
Way to kill as sin in pvp is getting double envenom crits for 15k using vanish. At least, t hats how I died in 1second one time lol
proud ore
That’s my plan to deal with all the tanks
raven locust
Assassination BIS set is mostly PvP gear with Rings from raid and a couple M+ pieces
raven locust
PvP Alacrity Trinket is decent if you're low on haste and have a high ilvl version
teal bloom
How does the venomous wounds buff compare to the 10% energy regen from SnD?
raven locust
Energy regen is about the same but you get extra Envenoms from not recasting
a small net buff
raven locust
cut to the chase is returning
dim rampart
i just tested on ptr and cut the chase is rly good for refresh SnD but it doesn't chnage the problem of our energy...
proud ore
Ok I’m being annoying I’ll just google cut to the chase
tender river
They haven't pushed it live, but venomous wounds will give 8 energy back now vs 7 before, so that will be improved once it's on PTR. They've removed the SnD Rank 2 for Sin which gave extra energy regen so it probably feels worse ATM but the venomous change nets out the SnD Rank 2 loss.
Cut to the Chase = +3 seconds of SnD with every Envenom - which is how it used to work for Sin Rogues in the previous expansions with SnD. Basically, as part of your opener on a target, you apply SnD at 4-5 CP and then Envenom should keep it up from there on, assuming no downtime (ie; boss mechanics)
languid totem
10% energy regen is about 1 energy per second right? With garrote and rupture up you get about 1 tick per second on single target so they should net out.
With two targets your energy regen should be increased.
tender river
Yeah, there'll probably be more incentive now to try to bleed/DoT multiple targets in trash pulls and M+.
raven locust
Yes but it's still a very small gain
dim rampart
My test was on 4 targets, in ST there is no pb
languid totem
I assume this will also increase the value of crit. A double crit mutilate essentially gets you 12 seconds of SnD for <5 seconds of energy usage. Since extra combo points go into envenom.
raven locust
It'll be a slight gain in value for haste and no change for other stats
The change in value would be nearly insignificant though
celest ruin
has anyone else noticed that when using blindside proc with sepsis buff
you still use energy from ambush
and you consume both buffs
or am i just seeing things
raven locust
Hasn't happened to me, I would use Sespsis proc and have the Blindside one still active
warm parcel
raven locust
Maybe if Blindside procs the same time Sespsis does it bugs out?
trim zinc
has anyone else noticed that when using blindside proc with sepsis buff
i never use sepsis prov
u should only use ambush on blindside
reef axle
So will be using dashing over Zordacs now?
trim zinc
cuz its better to mutilate and try another proc
trim zinc
So will be using dashing over Zordacs now?
no
raven locust
Not really, you're talking like 5-10 dps difference
reef axle
Hmmm still using execute leggo even after changes. Pending sims
proud ore
Wow I’m just glad there’s that much woek being out into sin
Ima@read ptr notes. Any sub?
raven locust
@reef axle Pins has sims on a couple legos
@proud ore It's not much work, these changes aren't going to improve our damage by much
proud ore
Sorry I’m talking pvp the pvp channel isncbaotic@and I wanted some actual stats thanks
obtuse ruin
Do any of these changes actually help assa for m+ tho
Compared to outlaw or other melee
👎
raven locust
No Outlaw Outclasses assass by such a large amount they would have to do some drastic changes
obtuse ruin
Yep
raven locust
gl?
proud ore
Go to typo on phone sorry
raven locust
Outlaw is very good on M+, nearly every team had on for MDI
Problem with Sub is Outlaw can do the same Boss damage while doing so much more Cleave
proud ore
I’ll have to try it I just learned of roll the bones chsnge today lmao
drowsy pond
Problem with Sub is Outlaw can do the same Boss damage while doing so much more ...
yeah pretty much
trim zinc
killed an alliance and my trinket hit a critter LMAO
merry fox
Ok, put this thing on the ground, sir! 
languid totem
Is the blood fang legendary buff a typo or am I mistaken in it’s damage? At 741% of attack power that would be about 9k damage and wowhead has the proc rate at 30%?
raven locust
^
gusty mirage
I’ll have to try it I just learned of roll the bones chsnge today lmao
Keep any 2+ buff and 1 buff if it’s broadside or true bearing. There ya learned it lol
raven locust
They probably meant to buff it to 74%
proud ore
I meant the rework
languid totem
Ok. Yeah that would make more sense.
drowsy pond
you keep any two buff?
slim sable
you dont keep bt and gm
deft rampart
Keep any 2+ buff and 1 buff if it’s broadside or true bearing. There ya learned ...
I think he meant he just learned that they reworked roll the bones to be a CD instead of a finisher in SL
glossy galleon
the sin changes look interesting eh?
toxic tusk
I haven’t been playing for a few days.
Did I hear that envenom refreshes slice n dice again?
And what did we lose?
glossy galleon
adds 3 secs per cp
but we lose snd rank 2
this is for 9.0.5 so not live yet
snd rank 2 is the energy regen
glossy galleon
but VW gives 8 energy instead of 7
toxic tusk
VW?
quasi scroll
what
glossy galleon
venomous wounds
quasi scroll
This seems like a big change for a x.x.5?
toxic tusk
Khal Shazar reminds me of Rem Lezar and I love it.
glossy galleon
native turtle
We literally got Toxic Blade mid expansion. Blizzard
loves giving assassination things mid expac
glossy galleon
they jsut dont know what to do with sin honestly
quasi scroll
this is weird??
glossy galleon
its going to scale to be the best spec in the game again late xpac without any tuning
because the way haste scales
quasi scroll
so i guess if you keep good env uptime you don't need to keep spending CP on SND?
lilac sparrow
is VW buff enough for loss of SnD rank 2?
chilly swift
sin is boring
glossy galleon
yeah you probably never need to refresh snd manually unless theres a long intermission or something
no more boring than sub or outlaw 
proud ore
Bruh I’m rolling sin
glossy galleon
its kind of annoying that that we have shiv
rotund oak
tested doomblade assa,im very happy with the results
glossy galleon
sin's better than sub right now anyway
quasi scroll
overall I loved how my rogue felt at the end of bfa
rotund oak
Definitely worth the 5.1k soul ash
quasi scroll
big pull, pop the azerite, smash FoK
glossy galleon
yeah im interested in which leggos are going to be bis now
especially if/when we get 2
lilac sparrow
I think sin will beat outlaw for ST after 9.05
glossy galleon
i liked that one week in legion where FoK was the best single target cp builder xD
quasi scroll
I have zoldyck, what's the next one I should get for focusing on M+?
or just keep Zoldyck forever
proud ore
I’m talking pvp I’ll prob just run both
rotund oak
doing already 2s with doomblade as well
dude,plates melts
dks,wars,pallies
nothing can endure the pressure,assa is unhealable
glossy galleon
yeah too bad you have to kill pallies 3 times to actually kill them though
rotund oak
u dont,they just bubble on open
u kill them once drs are clear
the dmg is unhealable ma dude
my envenoms crit for 10k easy
like,even healers,especially shammies
they dont stand a chance
fiery mauve
Assass does do decent damage in pvp
Zug zug spec
I’m looking forward to duskwalker though
alpine garden
What are current thoughts on burrs vs herbs?
pulsar sluice
Idk...the MA combo is just too good
raven locust
Burrs is a lot better than herbs
pulsar sluice
alot of my wins are based off the combo kekknis brought up here
glossy galleon
how many cp are sin using per second now? i'm just wondering if we'll be building snd up so high it outlasts intermission phases
pulsar sluice
sepsis>shiv>mutilate>vanish>garrote>envenom>mfd>envenom has won me alot fo games with MA
They never see the burst coming with vendetta
I do think doomblade is better for 3s though
rotund oak
doomblade is good for 2s as well
with a healer though
the pressure is just unhealable
pulsar sluice
It's really not that much extra damage (the bleed)
normal mist
The problem of MA imo is that you are forced to vanish offensively. If you get cc'ed after the vanish bye bye burst :(
rotund oak
same goes for doomblade as well
although u use vanish to stay on top of your drs
and tirple garrote or cs
with a kick landed something surely will die
normal mist
I'm talking about 2s in this case
rotund oak
ma is pretty much gimmicky because u lack the utility/mobility sub has
so u are forced to play with maneuver and with 1 step
dunno if its a good idea to play ma in 2s
normal mist
I've crafted doomblade yesterday but was playing at 1.8 with a ret so my uptime isn't really big since I'm forced to reset way to often
rotund oak
thats why doomblade is more optimal 😛
ye,playing with a healer is way better than double dps
with doomblade
it requires a healer to work,coz u can literally pve
normal mist
Exactly. Just gotta teach my disc friend how to press cds now 😂 😂
normal mist
He is a priest simulator
Aka he plays nothing that doesn't start with a P and ends in a RIEST
rotund oak
kyrian ofc
pulsar sluice
There you go lol
Thats why MA has no value for you
And I would play with a healer as sin no matter what
rotund oak
Thats relative
depends the map
but ye,nf resets easier
still gimmicky though,because facing a heavy cc team,like mage/rogue,failing to blast means u are pretty much done for 😉
eternal timber
Is it just me, or does the Dashing Scoundrel lego get a lot better with the upcoming SnD/envenom changes?
devout shadow
You guys think mini venthyr rework will make it better to go venthyr for PvE? Or should I just go nightfae?
normal mist
As a NF depending on the map, it's pretty hard to reset.. either I'm facing really good pvpers that dot me and chase me till the end of the earth even tho I'm blinking or they just forget about me
raven locust
It was mostly a QoL change unfortunately
I wouldnt do any covenant swapping till the patch is finalized
eternal timber
@raven locust Do you think Tiny Toxic Blade sees any play with the big dmg buff?
raven locust
It's in the pin, was a .8% buff lol
eternal timber
OHH, you're talking covenant. My bad.
devout shadow
Im just leveling my rogue again with threads of fate, should I go night faw then?
broken flame
Essence of Bloodfang legendary is going from 57% attack power to 741% attack power, will that make it viable? (According to PTR patch notes)
languid totem
It’s a typo. It’s probably 74%
normal mist
I was venthyr before joining NF last week. The covenant ability is so bad because it's on a gcd...
rotund oak
741%it will feel like freaking hirosima
raven locust
Oh yea was talking to the other guy @eternal timber But Dashing won't get much of anything with SnD, maybe 10 DPS at the most
languid totem
741% and we become a range pvp class spamming poisoned knife.
icy crater
lowkey a gunslinger would be sick
languid totem
Rupture/garrote for energy regen, kite with 60% slow and 125% passive movement speed, poisoned knife to proc a 9k+ dot
raven locust
Gunslinger would be a cool addition but too many people like Outlaw for it to happen ;/
icy crater
rupture and garrote tick for 300 each pog champ
onyx wind
Why are rupture and garrote combined doing 20% of my dmg XD
raven locust
Assass is a dot class, most of your damage is Deadly/bleeds
tacit forum
If those changes come to retail. Will we all just craft doomblade for the third bleed and spam Envenom for a 15% buffed dmg?
raven locust
Garrote only did damage last patch because of Subteruge+Exsanguinate with insane haste
raven locust
Easily the most fun Assassination has ever been
toxic tusk
Is anyone good enough at numbers/spotting obvious stupid stuff that they can take a look at my logs and tell me if anything blatant needs to change?
I’m only a heroic level raider, not crazy interested in going higher, but I’d like to do what I can.
onyx wind
What % are u parsing
toxic tusk
I’ve pulled top dps in a few heroic fights, consistently top/near top in normals.
strange python
Question for all the knowledgeable ones, which guide is better to pull information from: Wowhead or Icy Veins? Are there Rogue (or Assassination) specific sites?
pulsar sluice
Idk its so easy to kite with NF for reset, just throw knife alot too
toxic tusk
Icyveins has been pretty great, but I honestly learned a ton from here.
icy crater
I hate the wowhead format so I try to avoid it as much as possible
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
toxic tusk
What % are u parsing
That was on huntsman
I just don’t know if that’s low dps for ilvl or what. I’m happy with it, but if I can do better I’d love to.
onyx wind
I can take a look if you want, but i didnt learn assa much this patch
toxic tusk
That’s from last week if it matters.
onyx wind
Fundamentals are still there tho :)
toxic tusk
Sent you an add!
icy crater
Has anyone made a guide to reviewing your own logs?
I feel like that would be pretty useful.
toxic tusk
Google almost definitely does, but I’m not the best learner.
Bit of a disability but I usually need someone to throw a ton of questions at while I’m learning. School was hard.
icy crater
I don't think reviewing your own logs is an issue of understanding. It's just not knowing how.
Once you know the buttons to press on WCL, the basics are super easy
onyx wind
The best thing you can do is just compare to people who log better
And when i say better, i mean top 5 logs
icy crater
I've done that and sometimes it works for me sometimes not
Like one top 10 log I compared to myself the guy just crit twice as much as me and had better RtB buffs and procs. We casted the exact same amount of major spells on a given fight.
honest lake
So doomblade> zoldyck in the next patch?
normal mist
I don't know if the execute of zoldyck will still remain better. But not the expert around here so idk
split veldt
when do you guys pool your energy?
frozen jasper
i try to pool a bit just before shiv comes off CD
strange python
@toxic tusk what leggo are you using?
toxic tusk
Megablocks, I’m poor.
Megaboots*
I fucked up and made my legendary incorrectly back when. I’ve got rhe 235 Zoldyck boots
strange python
I use those. I only got 210 atm though. I'm not a pro by any means. But I managed a 5612 at 211. Are you keeping dots on both boss and bear at all times?
toxic tusk
I am when practical. If barghast is on the other side of the room I just stay on huntsman; and wait for an opportunity when he gets close enough.
frozen jasper
I am when practical. If barghast is on the other side of the room I just stay on...
if you have movement like shadowstep or shapeshift up i found its worth to go and dot up the dog/boss as well
split veldt
SS to it, night fae back
toxic tusk
We’re still on the learning phase of heroic, so there’s some hiccups as far as placement and stuff.
balmy condor
yeah I SS to it and then fae back usually
toxic tusk
Kyrian baby.
toxic tusk
But I could always sprint.
frozen jasper
sprint/SS will do
split veldt
if we have to switch to venthi boiz, i will miss shape shift a lot, door is mega gay, feels so slow
strange python
Our guild bring em close for a few secs. Gives enough time to get the dots on em. Isn't taken out that long. My dots are still there when he gets back
toxic tusk
I’ve noticed Barghast running close enough that I throw them on. I’ll make a more active attempt to do it more often.
Anyone else have a hell of a time getting shoulders to drop from literally anywhere?
quasi scroll
subtle tundra
the ramp up is almost instant
3 garrotes is almost enough to sustain, a rupture makes you good on energy
toxic tusk
I might be one of the few who didn’t want flying in shadowlands.
frozen jasper
I might be one of the few who didn’t want flying in shadowlands.
wut
toxic tusk
Don’t hate me. But I like the kind of realism to having to run around/use alternate transportation
frozen jasper
like i get the maw thing, but literally anywhere else flying saves a lot of time
toxic tusk
And being an engineer, I make a lot of gliders.
balmy condor
the flag change is pretty much identical to what it is now
it just does more damage
strange python
Flying is still going to suck
toxic tusk
like i get the maw thing, but literally anywhere else flying saves a lot of time
It does for sure, but I’m just not a huge fan of everything being faster.
strange python
You have to still go allll the way back to oribos to go anywhere else
toxic tusk
Wormhole Generator!
strange python
sorry overlord whispyr
frozen jasper
also why are we talking about flying
sorry sir
strange python
:x
balmy condor
toxic tusk
There’s a spec question. Are any of the engineering bombs worth bringing into a fight?
Or do they share a cool down with something/damage isn’t worth it
balmy condor
they aren't worth it
not sure if they share cds with something
I would assume they share with health pots maybe?
toxic tusk
I’ll find out later today and get back to you.
balmy condor
if they share with combat pots, it would be crazy bad
toxic tusk
If they were instant it’s just free damage.
next solar
is there any way to swap covenants on ptr without having to regrind?
gusty mirage
is there any way to swap covenants on ptr without having to regrind?
Doesn’t seem so :/
next solar
rip
vestal wren
leaks are mostly about classic beta
gusty mirage
I better get tier sets or I’ll be a sad panda
eternal timber
As an auto-attack class, would Sin get naturally stronger over time in an expac due to new items with higher ilvls and better stats? Or am I not thinking about it correctly?
Like, every item that as an on hit buffs us, yeah?
balmy condor
we're not really an auto attack class
but usually "on hit" effects have a built in proc rate
so there's nothing really there
like trinkets
they proc like 2 times a minute for example
and that's regardless of whether you attack twice a minute, or 200 times a minute
eternal timber
Ahhh, I didn't know about the built in proc rates... so attack speed doesn't increase procs? They are capped?
ah ok
thx
short hamlet
So with the assassination buffs it would seem we'd scale worse on multiple mobs
balmy condor
you mean better
venomous wounds buff is neutral in single target, and an increase in aoe
balmy condor
also has stronger interplay with haste, but that difference won't really do much
balmy condor
it's just "slightly better" ™️
short hamlet
I would think the 10% vs fixed energy means we'd fall behind current trajectories with more Haste
short hamlet
As 10% may be better with haste than 8 energy per proc instead of 7
shut garnet
its a nerf to the GIGA NUTS POWER SCALLING power of sin bro
balmy condor
As 10% may be better with haste than 8 energy per proc instead of 7
????
balmy condor
the 10% was nothing
dark vigil
also haste affects ticks of bleeding = more venomous wounds procs so
yeea..
and then we're getting cut to the chase
shut garnet
i dont think we'll ever get to haste levels again where that 10% will actually end up being a big thing
dark vigil
overall its moreso QoL, cleaning up spellbook (?) and a buff in some situations
balmy condor
well even if we do see the haste where 10% would be a thing
the 7->8 would be bigger
short hamlet
I know nothing about the sin math. Haven't played it since legion. Was planning to play it next patch. Good to know 7 to 8 is a net buff
dark vigil
yep
since ticks are affected by haste as well as that 10% energy regen
and its a huge gain in large aoe if you do multi garrote multi ruptures
balmy condor
the 10% energy regen didn't affect ticks
dark vigil
i meant
short hamlet
Oh
balmy condor
it was passive energy regen only
short hamlet
Oh yeah NVM then
dark vigil
yeah it wasn't as big as it seemed
short hamlet
dark vigil
i think overall its a cleanup on the spellbook
how boring was it to get lvl 56 or 58 and you unlock 10% base energy regen on slice and dice
shut garnet
ive never understood that argument
shell atlas
guys
shell atlas
who was that guy who "created the expedient ensang build?
stoic needle
you get rewarded more for doing high iq low combo point ruptures in aoe
Where did this idea come from because it's honestly ridiculous
balmy condor
who was that guy who "created the expedient ensang build?
you mean..... the.... theorycrafters?
who.... simmed it?
dark vigil
@stoic needle idk wym
balmy condor
shut garnet
balmy condor
shut garnet
HAHAHA
balmy condor
it gets better
shut garnet
man im getting flashbacks
holy shit
did i go thru a wormhole into 8.3 times sin channel
is this it
@balmy condor is EV good bro?
dark vigil
balmy condor
@shut garnet man its like the good old days
stoic needle
<@!502859708504342538> idk wym
You are basically energy capped in aoe with three garottes and a rupture up. Doing low cp ruptures does nothing
balmy condor
infexious video says 34% crit?
shut garnet
HAHA 34%
shell atlas
balmy condor
I was still allowed to go outside
shell atlas
good old days
balmy condor
remember when we complained about ilgy prog
short hamlet
Whispyr doesn't remember the good old times. He's been playing rogue since the expansions after legion, mainly WoD
balmy condor
oh god don't fucking bring that meme up
shell atlas
kekw
balmy condor
primal dagger
kek
short hamlet
shut garnet
nothing like coming to this channel post PTR update
shut garnet
"... comfy swamp"
short hamlet
Real talk are we deleting the sub channel?
balmy condor
no
short hamlet
balmy condor
the sin changes don't actually amount to much of a buff
short hamlet
Based on what you've corrected my understanding on for sin, it seems like a buff for M+ but a neutral trade in raid
icy crater
Remember when we were memeing about envenom extending SnD? Those were the days.
dark vigil
yeah what will it be like, 1-2% dps increase on a st fight?
lol
having like 2 extra envenoms a minute
balmy condor
Based on what you've corrected my understanding on for sin, it seems like a buff...
yeh
the cttc thing is an actual buff
but it's so minor
that it's really not worth talking about
the buff is the FEELING
dark vigil
at least now unless theres huge downtime on fights
we can just unbind slice and dice in the middle of an encounter
/s
brittle pawn
bind? /cast slice n dice in chat
kindred wind
Catching up with chat, so the snd energy buff will only amount to 1-2%?
ashen anchor
Sin's APM shoots through the roof when you realize the intended way to play is to type all the spells
dark vigil
i threw an arbritary number out
kindred wind
Ahhh
short hamlet
Sin's APM shoots through the roof when you realize the intended way to play is t...
It's still lower. You have a lot of time to type between mutilates
dark vigil
but yeah i mean
in perfect scenario you'd get like 2-3 extra envenoms a minute with cttc
¯_(ツ)_/¯
kindred wind
What about in m+, I do that mainly
kindred wind
I wish going sin wasn’t such a gimping
balmy condor
it's not gimping
kindred wind
Tired of outlul
primal dagger
^
dark vigil
outlaw 
dark vigil
isnt sub more braindead though
toxic tusk
Big difference between mythic 15 and heroic raiding.
balmy condor
idk if people are still stuck in beta sub hype or what
dark vigil
since u dont have to multidot
short hamlet
My sub dps in M+ is competitive with people around my gear level. Obviously I don't hold a candle to giga geared boomies and mages tho
kindred wind
That’s what I remember
dark vigil
you can do +15's with any spec
kindred wind
True
balmy condor
could do 20's with sin
brittle pawn
most people can't do 15s with any spec
kindred wind
Ya, pugs want meta
Shyguy is correct
Had a 224 ele sham pulling 3k dps overall in a 15 SD
icy crater
Did he have IO?
kindred wind
Rio of 1400
icy crater
JESUS
stoic needle
Bruh
kindred wind
You got me
dark vigil
was he typing each ability as a /cast
kindred wind
So depressing
brittle pawn
if tank says fuck your eq
dark vigil
even then i think you'd do more dmg
kindred wind
No, he’s not sin
brittle pawn
ele does no dam
dark vigil
i think
you'd pull more than 3k overall
if u just did pure st
whole m+
and pretend they aren't packs
kindred wind
Is our boy Seliathin playing sin yet in m+? Haven’t caught his stream in a minute
kindred wind
Thanks
dark vigil
playing outlaw
stoic needle
Never
regal tundra
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stoic needle
deletes lvl 2 celery
strange python
is ass good😆
stoic needle
U wot
balmy condor
is ass good😆
its roughly on par with sub
strange python
hmm ok
drowsy hollow
I was stunned at preach being shocked rio mattered even in 8-9s
How disconnected from reality have mythic raiders gotten
balmy condor
When he talked about rogue scaling
I realized I've been wrong this whole time
short hamlet
Is linking your main usually good enough to get your alt into groups? Never tried