depends on fight I guess but yeah execute is a niche that can make rogue valuable in some situation even without being the highest theorical one
#assassination
tribal marlin
static glacier
thing is
why would you go for dusk + zoldyck when dashing likely gives better sustained damage in execute too
hollow escarp
you need to thing about the raid comp as well, even with 2 legendaries, other classes might be better, at least with zoldyck we bring something valuable to the raid
not just dps
faint harness
why would you go for dusk + zoldyck when dashing likely gives better sustained d...
but where is ur execute without zoldyck
unless you count blindside as execute
stoic needle
dashing does not give better sustained damage in execute
hollow escarp
30% is pretty sustained 
fleet whale
yeah, zold is still gonna have its niche
frozen jasper
In addition, zoldyck gives value in aoe/cleave
faint harness
if assassination dmg aint top tier, the only place i'd play it is when execute is good
so losing that niche
is just a no-go for me
stoic needle
yes
static glacier
is the execute even that strong
dark vigil
yes
faint harness
yes
fleet whale
yes lol
hollow escarp
ofc
stoic needle
40% 
hollow escarp
50 
static glacier
poisons / bleeds are like 30-40% of our damage breakdown
fleet whale
it's actually one of the strongest executes in the game
hollow escarp
check all sin logs on Denathrius mythic phase 3
and that's in the current state of assa
tribal marlin
I know @balmy condor blame me, but I did the sims. The execute DPS with Zoldyk is miles ahead of any other leggo rn no doubt
hollow escarp
ofc
lean fossil
what the heck is sbs lol i came to this convo way late
fleet whale
serrated bone spike
hollow escarp
necro ability
tribal marlin
Even if you add some shit variance or even start the fight at 40%, you will still be doing 10% more damage with execute than with other leggo
faint harness
thats a thing
faint harness
do you?
hollow escarp
don't have enough data to compare
hollow escarp
hey, I keep forgetting to swap soulbind
burrs also slows
so it's a bit bad this week
fleet whale
it also doesn't do it's damage right away
faint harness
the problem with burrs is hitting something
fleet whale
and it may do nothing if your tank keeps moving mobs
exotic rose
Hey guys, do you know if when siming pointed courage from Kleia, it sims as if you have 5 party members?
hollow escarp
well, I don't do high keys, so tanks don't need to kite that much
stoic needle
herbs is +40dps over burrs in dslice
hollow escarp
I don't like simming for M+
lean fossil
in m+ im finding the crit is really nice and been using the fok conduit
but that only works well since my tank normally pulls a few packs at once
dark vigil
simming for m+ is the biggest meme
stoic needle
what
drowsy hollow
oh, does recuperate constantly proc herbs?
drowsy hollow
it is such a mess on what abilities procs herbs or not
stoic needle
i don't think anything procs it for us but the passive regen
cuz the uptime is the same with recuperator and without
drowsy hollow
that... doesn't seem right. That would mean tanks have 100% uptime and they don't.
hollow escarp
buff uptime is big
I don't understand how it refreshes in combat
but it works
so I'll take it
drowsy hollow
I know the Kul Tiran racial procs niya herbs
drowsy hollow
leech does?
stoic needle
it's capped at 60% afaik
the uptime is always 60% no matter what talents you take
which leads me to believe that its nothing but passive
tribal marlin
I'd like to play a bit of Korayn assa in M+
drowsy hollow
I know frenized regen and ysera's on druids don't proc it
stoic needle
niya herbs is good for tyrranical
tribal marlin
or Crit + Crit + Crit
stoic needle
better than korayn possibly
tribal marlin
and I lack so much crit
dark vigil
highly doubt
stoic needle
what is there to doubt
drowsy hollow
hmm, I'll have to ask my night fae druid friends to check it more.
stoic needle
once your out of wild hunt range and after fs bonus you have a dead soulbind
you always get benefit from herbs
which is good for long tyrannical boss fights
and aoe
drowsy hollow
you always get benefit from burrs too
tribal marlin
might suck a bit for the ST part of the dungeon for sure
but it's so valuable on trash
even without chain pulling
hollow escarp
you always get benefit from burrs too
depends on movement
on overall it's still good damage
stoic needle
but herbs is +40dps in aoe and only -15 dps in ST compared to burrs
hollow escarp
as much as dreadfire vessel
stoic needle
theres no reason to use burrs over herbs for m+
dusky vault
yep good to know
yeah I get similar from memory
but recouperator doesnt activate it?
stoic needle
dont think so
hollow escarp
I never looked into Herbs so far
balmy condor
recoup does
stoic needle
either recuperator doesn't proc it or it has a PPM
trim zinc
wat u guys think about that?
karmic tusk
Interesting
stoic needle
cuz i get the exact same uptime with and without recup
balmy condor
wat u guys think about that?
it's completely neutral dps wise aside from getting like 6 more envenoms
balmy condor
cuz i get the exact same uptime with and without recup
it has a ppm
lean fossil
@tribal marlin running korayn plus the fok conduit im averaging like 5k per dungeon and around 5k on boss at the end
drowsy hollow
a ppm off of healing makes sense, but you have to be healing some how. My mage wasn't getting it off of shields, only the kul tiran racial
balmy condor
shields are not heals
drowsy hollow
I know
balmy condor
aha
drowsy hollow
not even the healing from the shield conduit was proccing it
livid temple
okay so Sin is getting cut to the chance for 3 seconds to slice and dice & getting more energy from wounds, thats pretty nice
trim zinc
thats gonna make doomblade better? or if they want that leggo stronger they should buff envenon dmg?
drowsy hollow
but losing 10% energy from the SnD buff directly. It equals out
balmy condor
that does make doomblade better
trim zinc
that does make doomblade better
in a way thats better then zold or MA
balmy condor
yeh
hollow escarp
Doomblade sounds nice for a potential tier set
hollow escarp
really?
hollow escarp
what was Tomb of Sargeras?
fleet anchor
Wasn't in the pin because this wasn't the case when the pin was made. Looks like they quickly added it in to the notes based on all the kurfuffle. Last I checked it wasn't on PTR yet either. Maybe they will hotfix it in soon.
stoic needle
a ppm off of healing makes sense, but you have to be healing some how. My mage w...
i get the proc with no buffs whatsoever, out of combat in the covenant hall
hollow escarp
started playing with Argus on the sky 
fleet whale
well, blizz appears to be planning on making VM 8 energy
stoic needle
i mean the dot on doomblade does fuck all damage because it's only based on MH damage
it's still gonna do fuck all
fleet anchor
I assume it's a reaction to everyone wondering why the fuck they think Assassination should be even slower than before lol
livid temple
i mean, sin is just gonna get nutty when they can have doomblade and Zold
drowsy hollow
passive regen does not proc niya's herbs on a mage
fleet anchor
But definitely not on PTR yet or in the changes earlier today
fleet anchor
Considering it's an extremely simple spell change, this seems reactionary to me
tribal marlin
I assume it's a reaction to everyone wondering why the fuck they think Assassina...
do you actually say Blizzard read this channel 
drowsy hollow
leech does not proc niya's herbs either
fleet anchor
But if it's 8 that should mostly equalize things I presume
drowsy hollow
I'm trying to figure out what in rogues kit passively would be proccing niya's herbs
tribal marlin
It's 2 energy per (2/spell haste)s which equal to 1x Haste energy / s (fixed)
and we loose 10% of 10x Haste energy / s
which is well ... 1x haste energy/s
stoic needle
Could doomblade be slightly ahead of zoldyck now on st considering it was dead even at 30%?
cunning surge
I'm very excited for the change, just need to pop SnD once and then you're Good to go
drowsy hollow
Bears are finding logs with niya herb uptimes much higher than 60%
hollow escarp
might need to cast it twice during a Shriekwing fight
cunning surge
Yeah, that's probably the only instance, that and if you have it not refreshed before Danse Macabre
stoic needle
It would be jank as fuck if it had different ppm for different classes
stoic needle
But I put nothing past blizzard
fleet whale
I'm curious for new flag sims
tribal marlin
I'm excited about that venthyr thing tbh
As I said earlier, it's a giga haste buff we've just got
cunning surge
I'm most likely staying Night Fae, but yeah I'm really interested to see how that goes
stoic needle
I'll probably swap back
hollow escarp
I still wish that all covenants will be ok for rogues
I like the freedom of playing w/e
tribal marlin
With the conduit (which I evaluate estimate to be ~2-3% so in line with other) it's a ramping buff from 5% to 25% for 12sec and then a full 12sec of 25% haste
that's a big deal tbh
cunning surge
That is, yeah
drowsy hollow
It would be jank as fuck if it had different ppm for different classes
that would be crazy as hell, I'm just trying to find out what would make it proc even without casting a heal on rogues since leech and passive hp regen don't do anything for mages
stoic needle
If you take the covenant abilities in a vacuum venthyr is definitely the best now
tribal marlin
However Flag is bugged rn
Give 0.0% haste per stack (tweaking incoming ?) and do no damage xD
tribal marlin
okok
fleet whale
well hopefully flag will get fixed lol
drowsy hollow
it should, it's first build with the rework, bugs happen
hollow escarp
I could copy my venthyr rogue on PTR 
stoic needle
that would be crazy as hell, I'm just trying to find out what would make it proc...
I will admit it's weird af
fleet anchor
If you take the covenant abilities in a vacuum venthyr is definitely the best no...
Venthyr's soulbinds are weaker though
fleet whale
that's really the main issue with venth
stoic needle
Ye
fleet whale
is the souldbinds
stoic needle
God they are such trash 😩
fleet whale
but if flag ends up being a decent ability that is fun to play
i'll still go venth tbh
hollow escarp
bugged as well
tribal marlin
Venthyr's soulbinds are weaker though
But maybe they have some cool stuff to bring about it tho. Not in the note yet but they deffo need changes
drowsy hollow
it hits pretty hard for venthyr
stoic needle
If they buffed draven to like 10% mainstat and made it tick down instead of being immediately lost when you're under the threshhold
That would be sick nasty
stoic needle
Heirmir's is 3% with no conditional
Emeni is 5% with barely any conditional
10% would be fine considering how much aoe raid damage there is in boss fights
Maybe 8%
3% is just dog though
drowsy hollow
it's 4%
tribal marlin
yeah that's it
fleet anchor
If the goal is for them to be close to NF/Kyrian
tribal marlin
Nadjia is inconsitant because 80sec cycle etc... but still good
fleet whale
i'm just tired of heart of the forest making my GPU fan spin like crazy
tribal marlin
If they somehow buff venthyr soulbind then we might expect to see Venthyr rogue rising
fleet whale
literally the only place in wow
stoic needle
Both nadjia and theotar are inconsistent that's the problem
fleet whale
that makes my gpu do that
tribal marlin
I mean Nadjia is consistant (compare to Theotar)
tribal marlin
it just ... random haste
fleet whale
i know how to make Nadja good:
stoic needle
Make thrill seeker proc when you press flag
fleet whale
make the first trait work like Niya first trait
tribal marlin
I mean not random actually it somehow sync with TB
stoic needle
Ez
fleet whale
you get the haste when you activate flag
stoic needle
Make theotar's shade follow you but at a reduced speed
tribal marlin
you get the haste when you activate flag
hahaha imagine that many of haste
stoic needle
drowsy hollow
yeah, it's definitely one lash of damage per finisher no matter the CP
fleet whale
that's a bug likely
tribal marlin
yeah, it's definitely one lash of damage per finisher no matter the CP
yep it's fully bug
I wanted to test the conduit as well but I'm not venthyr and the quest were bug
drowsy hollow
conduit damage boost is working but I don't think the lashes are
tribal marlin
with conduit we can maybe expect a 15k dam per execute which is honestly fine
ofc we won't take the conduit for the damage but for the 5% additionnal haste IF we take the conduit ever
trim zinc
if i dont have gold to buy zold on legs is that bad to do it on boots??
drowsy hollow
70% boost to flagellation's damage now is sizeable
tribal marlin
isn't it 50% ?
tribal marlin
oh that's right I forgot about the ilvl !
well that's free damage then, just value the stuff a bit more
we'll see
stoic needle
if i dont have gold to buy zold on legs is that bad to do it on boots??
If we ever get to run 2 legendaries you won't be able to run zoldyck and dashing in their bis slots and you'll regret that. And you will get more stats from a maxed out legendary on legs over boots
drowsy hollow
yeah, conduit big bug
tribal marlin
But if we ever go for double leggo I can bet you i'll switch to venthyr just to have this crazy 2mn execute dps with 2x Flag+Vend
loud silo
do you think MFD would be the way to go with venthyr or would energy regen be too awful?
tribal marlin
Honestly, we already do well in exec, but if we can do what I simmed in 3mn, but over 2mn max
it become somehow very good niche
I don't expect to see a real 3mn Execute phase ever actually even Sire which is already a very good execute phase isn't really 3mn execute
but more like 2:30 and I believe it's already in "big" range of execute lenght
which is probably more like maximum 2:00 average so having these 1:30 vend sync with flag will be insane
tribal marlin
do you think MFD would be the way to go with venthyr or would energy regen be to...
feelcraft here, but I think you can't pass on Vigor in assasinnation
BUT if you fully commit into the vendetta burst windows ... maybe hey
loud silo
yeah i thought that might be the case I was just curious on thoughts in here
just do your burst then go make a coffee 
drowsy hollow
so my abilities are doing a bit more to a level 62 training dummy than the tooltips would suggest
I may be rolling lucky on the rng aspect
You would also expect the 4 extra lashes on use to do some damage but that's also not happening
tribal marlin
Let's wait for one or two more iteration on the PTR
drowsy hollow
eh, bug reports submitted anyways about the ability and the conduit
tribal marlin
for now it's just obviously fully bug
tribal marlin
exactly
drowsy hollow
and I'm one of those rare fools who had a 60 venthyr rogue ready to go haha
low girder
because most people still didn't pick venthyr
fleet anchor
Just assuming for now that Lash is fubar for another 2 or 3 builds, just like beta 😛
drowsy hollow
IF it works like the tooltip sounds like it should work, it'll be great
Flagellation’s initial damage increased by 270%, additional damage from spending combo points increased by 160%, and deals damage 1 time upon use (was 3).
This sounds like 1 lash of damage per finisher might be intended
ornate gazelle
what's the SBS change?
fleet anchor
Flag has worked for precisely like.. one single iteration, which is right after it went live lol
oak trout
Finally I can be with the vampire boys 
drowsy hollow
but it's iffy
sleek otter
Yea its dmg is kinda garbo ngl
faint harness
This sounds like 1 lash of damage per finisher might be intended
no thats the activation lash
balmy condor
what's the SBS change?
faint harness
like actual press of the spell
drowsy hollow
no thats the activation lash
additional damage from spending combo points increased by 160%, and deals damage 1 time upon use (was 3).
it's not clear what they mean there
sleek otter
doesnt do 3 lashes at the start
faint harness
well you have used it in 9.0 right?
sleek otter
does just 1
faint harness
and the start is 3 lashes
so you'd assume the (3) they are talking about is the activation lash
cus it would say (5-6) otherwise
cus thats the CP lash
sleek otter
imagine if was off gcd
faint harness
- the conduit change is to make the use exactly the same as before if you use the conduit
3+2 is current use
1+4 would be new
drowsy hollow
okay, they could word that part better
OR put the additional lashes damage on a second sentence
sleek otter
whats the max stacks now? 25 right?
drowsy hollow
30 stacks or 15% haste
faint harness
in 9.0 it should be 30
sleek otter
hmmm was giving 1 percent haste per stack
faint harness
it doesnt have a cap in this version
sleek otter
in ptr
drowsy hollow
and you only get that haste for 20s after expiration
you get a bunch more haste out of the new version
On live you get one lash of damage per combo point spent so that's definitely a bug
trim zinc
zold also icreases instant poison dmg and envenon??
drowsy hollow
it's all poison damage, I don't know if it works with sub and combat's instant poison
drowsy hollow
I don't believe Envenom is considered a poison despite being nature damage
sleek otter
I dunno, shiv increases envenom dmg
faint harness
it's all poison damage, I don't know if it works with sub and combat's instant p...
it doesnt work for sub at least
drowsy hollow
shiv increases nature damage, not poison damage
trim zinc
it's all poison damage, I don't know if it works with sub and combat's instant p...
so envenon 2 OOOOH
drowsy hollow
I'm pretty sure envenom isn't buffed by zol
dark vigil
poison and bleed is zold - shiv is nature dmg
shiv increases envenom, poison bomb i think?
sepsis
and weapon poison
trim zinc
poison and bleed is zold - shiv is nature dmg
so it increases the new aplication dmg
frozen karma
What is SBS btw
oak arrow
Serrated Bone Spike (SBS)
frozen karma
Gotcha
frozen karma
Yeah, not a fan of the spell or necrolord anyway lol
dark vigil
id prefer if it didtn have combo point generation, 30 sec cd with no charges(to balance it for cleaving) and make it do like double its damage
then you could do some itneresting stuff with spread out fights
some shit like that
just an idea
frozen karma
Fracture mechanic was interesting but right now ehhhh
dark vigil
or maybe if like
exsanguinate worked with it in a way that would promote a mastery/haste stacking build
idk
just random dumb ideas
elfin forge
so how short of a cooldown is Vandetta gonna have with the 30 energy change?
wary ice
3 mutilates will be 5s instead of 3s
strange python
Am i big brain for sticking with venthyr all xpac
wary ice
rogue benefits from none of our abiltieis being particularly good and relatively in line with one another
most take NF or kyrian cause the binds are nutty
the dungeon boosts are bigger than anything across them
so theres still really strong arguments for being ven/necro (esp w/ how powerful the dungeon boosts from HoA ToP and SD are)
as not many other specs are allowed to go them comfortably.
ie: hunter isnt a class without wild spirits
subtle imp
does sbs get affected by zold
tranquil robin
does sepsis?
cunning surge
Yeah, Shiv affects all Nature Damage, but Zold just affects Poisons and Bleeds
Pretty sure Sepsis' Debuff isn't classified as a Poison
faint harness
Its nature dmg
stark heart
nature != poison
cunning surge
Yeah that's what I was thinking, a little sad but we have plenty in our kit to synergize with Zold
dark vigil
funyn thing is
even if all the covenant abilites were affected by zold
still wouldnt be enough
wary ice
p sure zold is a whitelist
of our spell book stuff
I dont know if SBS counts in it though
ie: garrote DP/WP procs and dots rupture CT etc
shadow helm
doomblade buff pog
elfin forge
would be really cool to see Doomblade + Vandetta cooldown, 45 seconds exang window bleed build once we can wear 2 legendaries.
it sadly won't simm as #1 dps build
shadow helm
theey added cut to the chase tho
wary ice
expected tbh
elfin forge
Zoldyc is just too strong
wary ice
i mean
fierce tulip
What covenant should i go for Sin
wary ice
you get it back in not having to burna global and 25 energy every 30s
NF/whatever your dungeon needs
balmy condor
would be really cool to see Doomblade + Vandetta cooldown, 45 seconds exang wind...
Exsang will remain trash without more help, and I’m like 99% sure exsang doesn’t work on doomblade
elfin forge
yer i meant more, that I'd love to see this type of build "fixed" and actually viable
wary ice
Exsang will remain shit for as long as garrote doesnt have stupid damage dumped into it and it competes with alacrity
tbh
balmy condor
Or rupture
Has to be one or the other
Or both I guess
But gotta get bleed damage in somewhere
wary ice
Garrote damage is more pronounced cause of how fat subt damage bonus is but yeah
either or really
extra energy on ven wounds too
balmy condor
All depends on the borrowed power yeh
wary ice
Fair enough
elfin forge
Honestly, the biggest issue is Slice being back. It skues the dmg tuning on everything. Imo our auto attack dmg should be like 5% of total max. If they take Slice out they could just pour dps into rupture/envenom. RIP
wary ice
hard disagree
stark heart
they took slice out pretty much
dark vigil
?
elfin forge
but they didnt take out Slice's effect on auto attack dmg
stark heart
Cut to the Chase makes SnD irrelevant button
wary ice
also true
stark heart
press once on pull, may as well hide in UI
stark heart
yep
cunning surge
I'll definitely enjoy keeping it up and saving my Combo Points for more Envenom or Ruptures rather than refresh it
wary ice
9.0.5 will make your envenoms give 3seconds to your SnD per cp spent
elfin forge
sure, but its only half removed
stark heart
you don't spend resources on keeping snd specifically
dark vigil
give me more bleed and poison dmg 
elfin forge
exactly
wary ice
Exsang sucks, PB is anemic, Hidden blades is a joke, venom rush LMAO, MA is redundant with the legendary
Honestly fuck alacrity too tbh but thats personal
elfin forge
Crimson should be baseline, or a version of it that applies aoe rupture too
like feral's aoe rip
stark heart
you know there once was a talent called blood sweat....
elfin forge
we need an aoe spender
tidal gorge
How cool would it be if they actually did an innovative revamp of sin. Like remove rupture and SnD entirely and base finishers around using vials with cooldowns to modify what envenom does in addition to the damage
low girder
hey i found it here you go
elfin forge
i mean, having a single target build/spender is core, having an alternate pair of aoe builder/spender is only logical
slow marsh
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
wary ice
i mean, having a single target build/spender is core, having an alternate pair o...
not when your st spender core is literally not target capped
low girder
i mean it is target capped, just in a different way the same as affliction or any dot spec
how many can you get out before they start expiring
tidal gorge
Like what if you could just apply vials to envenom to do like an aoe debuff around the target, one to put a dot in addition to the dd, one to do aoe splash damage in addition to the dd, etc. That would be a neat spec to play 😛
near coyote
they need to redo the bottom tier of talents end of story, they must be fucking blind if they think anyone picks anything other than PB and its been like 4 years now
get a clue and fix it
low girder
yeah you take CT for aoe
wary ice
you literally only take it cause its >0 in st
low girder
idk what that's about
low girder
🔮
near coyote
you act like you havent played pb for like 90% of your builds the past 5 years
the bottom tier is shit
low girder
those are separate statements
near coyote
most people dont need to spend their best talent row on aoe either
near coyote
should be a diff tier all together and the bottom tier reworked
they have kingsbane in the database already
id love that back
low girder
meh. tbh that should've just been a baseline thing instead of tying TB to shiv
scrap the shiv thing, just make it kingsbane, then you have shiv separate for enrage dispels or whatever
and having both would be redundant anyway
shadow helm
give rogues a raid buff
drowsy hollow
it's called numbing poison. sorry warlocks is better
Make it as strong as warlock, it still won't be unique, but better than nothing, and you still have cheat death that locks don't have
strange python
give rogues permanent bloodlust
drowsy hollow
but numbing/weakness are balanced around the fact numbing can be applied in aoe
little moth
nimble garnet
is assa any worth now will all the buffs its been getting? maybe its leggos as well? new flagelation or naw
drowsy hollow
havoc doesn't bring anything right now, ret doesn't bring anything right now, enh doesn't bring anything right now if you want to go that way
solar hare
They do tho, but they have better specs that bring the same thing
And enh has wf totem
Havoc magic dam, ret aura etc
Ret has
TONS of util
Freedoms, bops, auras, LoH, sac
Immunties out the ass
tight ravine
solar hare
Druids and hunters can tho 
drowsy pond
havoc brings a raid buff and great aoe
drowsy hollow
havoc sucks so much people are taking Veng
drowsy pond
Havoc is easily playable
drowsy pond
^
solar hare
Lmfao
drowsy pond
sure veng is technically better
drowsy hollow
all that utility can be brought by a holy paladin
drowsy pond
at the very very top
drowsy hollow
so why bring ret?
solar hare
They do tho, but they have better specs that bring the same thing
Almost like i said this
drowsy hollow
don't act as if rogues are some outlier in the melee game
solar hare
Youre saying because they have better specs and are not brought is the same as having no utility
And also doing bad damage
drowsy hollow
It's a melee problem more than anything else
Wait for there to be a fight where cheat death makes a difference
Hell the top guilds are already considering assassination next tier if execute damage is needed
drowsy pond
It's a melee problem more than anything else
i disagree
solar hare
They bring more utilit
drowsy pond
there is a melee problem
but i wouldn't say that the melee problem is the main problem
or well "more than anything else"
drowsy hollow
Like I'm sorry, rogues don't get to cry about utility after the last two expansions.
solar hare
drowsy pond
why not?
solar hare
What do we bring, stuns?
A shit immunity for soaks that dont exist in the current tier
drowsy pond
^
shy dust
Like I'm sorry, rogues don't get to cry about utility after the last two expansi...
What raid utility
drowsy pond
tbh im fine not having utility
drowsy hollow
You were THE utility kings in m+ for kicks, stuns, CC. It may not translate to raid, but absolute dominance in m+ for two expansions and pvp even longer.
drowsy pond
i dont mind
solar hare
Yeah
shy dust
So
solar hare
Rogues are amazing at m+
shy dust
When discussing raid it lilo ty
solar hare
We all know that
shy dust
Utility*
drowsy hollow
Give up your pvp utility for raid damage I say.
shy dust
What do we bring
drowsy pond
also Blizzard cares more about raid in pve than M+
shy dust
That’s moronic
solar hare
M+ literally isnt even standalone content
drowsy pond
Give up your pvp utility for raid damage I say.
ok strip away half of mage's toolkit then too
shy dust
You don’t balance a class to not bring utility in pve because it has crowd control in PvP
solar hare
Its tertiary to raiding
low girder
classes can only be good in one thing i guess
drowsy hollow
Please do, mages need nerfs too
low girder
unless your class is fire mage
drowsy pond
u should not balance pvp and pve
drowsy pond
like it shouldn't be "oh sub is good in pvp so it shouldn't be good in raid"
those are two different parts of the game
and let's not act like other classes are not both bonkers in pvp
and pve
let's strip monk of their toolkit too
solid venture
Guys assa good after ptr buff??? XD 
balmy condor
Guys any new sims on venthyr
solar hare
And m+ and raiding are very far from related, yes theyre both pve content but like i said, m+ is literally tertiary content compared to raiding
Its not standalone
At all
balmy condor
Is bis updated
drowsy hollow
Except it is?
balmy condor
Do I delete my rogue
drowsy pond
:/
drowsy hollow
People are 226 geared purely from m+ and pvp
solar hare
People are getting 226 from great vault
drowsy hollow
If anything I'd argue raiding is more superfluous as game content at this point than other things
low girder
Do I delete my rogue
while you're here does your revamp thing have a command or do i just link it to people
drowsy pond
based on what Blizzard does for M+
shadow helm
dk has more raid utility
drowsy pond
it might as well be tertiary
balmy condor
while you're here does your revamp thing have a command or do i just link it to ...
Just link
low girder
kk
solar hare
It literally is tertiary
drowsy hollow
They've paid more attention to dungeon balancing this tier than the raid. 😄
low girder
shy dust
Nah it’s shit
low girder
just link it in the bug report on ptr lmao
shy dust
Removing envenom is terrible
drowsy pond
dk has more raid utility
and higher damage xd
balmy condor
But I get rid of snd too
solar hare
and higher damage xd
And the best execute in the game
balmy condor
Meet me halfway
solar hare
shy dust
That doesn’t make removing nature eviscerate better
drowsy pond
xdddddd
shadow helm
cheesing inerva with AMS
drowsy pond
what if we replaced rupture with between the eyes xd
drowsy pond
1 min cloak would actually be kind of nice
butnot sure if it really matters that much
low girder
just keep an MC up so you can kick on cd on artificer
solar hare
low girder
bam twice the trap clear
shadow helm
stygia for conduit upgrades big lol
drowsy pond
sub will remain shit in pve
solar hare
Did you know
drowsy hollow
On ptr, each spec gets one potency conduit from the raid
drowsy pond
fire mage will rise
drowsy hollow
big whoop
drowsy pond
such is life
solar hare
226 fire mage conduit is 12% of their damage
shy dust
Subs fine in PvE
drowsy pond
Subs fine in PvE
in Raid?
drowsy hollow
fire mage is the only conduit that does something for any spec really
drowsy pond
how
solar hare
Frost mage is like
drowsy hollow
it's a weird outlier that survived beta and further tuning
solar hare
14%
shy dust
And it has uses for many bosses
drowsy pond
outlaw just does that better tho
shy dust
No it doesn’t
solar hare
Not on shriekwing, sunking, council, sludge
shy dust
We can argue this in the sub channel though
solar hare
^
shy dust
And you can tell me how outlaw just does it better
sudden brook
whats the deal with the sin change specifically, is cut stronger than snd rank 2?
like numerically
shy dust
They buffed venomous wounds
sudden brook
ingoring the ven wounds buff
low girder
with all the changes it's roughly equal according to koji
without ven wounds it's a nerf
shy dust
Cut is weaker
low girder
in ST
sudden brook
gotcha
drowsy hollow
Cut gives you more envenoms, that's it
low girder
yeah
sudden brook
gotcha
shy dust
so cut + ven is basically a 0% dps increase
Idk about that
From my understanding energy regen is now even
With loss of rank 2 snd
drowsy hollow
energy regen is even and you never cast snd besides the first time
shy dust
That’s not accounting for more damage finishers from not using snd
balmy condor
The VM and r2 balance out
drowsy hollow
you get how ever many envenoms you have SnDs -1
shadow helm
first of many ptr builds anyway
low girder
i am stupid
low girder
also necro kinda got buffed for sin
lament dove
but necro doesn't need a rework mechanically, it's fun to use
sudden brook
seems weird to focus on venthyr to buff
low girder
it's the other two it's still bad for
sudden brook
well why did
every other spec
in the entire game
get a covenant buff and nerf
except sbs
it feels like
all the dogshit ones got buffed
except
rogue sbs
shadow helm
its not final tho
sudden brook
blue posts start to make things feel pretty final
split veldt
is this still a nerf with VW?
balmy condor
It’s energy neutral
split veldt
booo
balmy condor
And slight dps up
split veldt
fu blizz
low girder
we still don't have hard numbers for valor upgrades, there's still hope guy
a very small sliver
radiant dove
Finally a tooltip for snd buff extend. Not to lose so many envenoms.
shadow helm
if u hate burs get korayn then lmao!
balmy condor
How many envenoms do you think you’re losing
mild horizon
So whats the general opinion om the new suggested changes to assa?
manic harness
I feel like it's worth more than 6 or 7 envenoms though
mild horizon
A good one non the less imo
manic harness
As far as having not to refresh snd/bleeds before Shiv windows
Maybe not a LOT more but I feel like it'll be better overall
radiant dove
exactly
balmy condor
Well it’s better sure
But like
People seem to be under the impression that cttc is gonna double our envenom damage or something
It’s really not that big
You just don’t press snd
loud silo
cttc?
balmy condor
Which you already didn’t press that often
loud silo
oh nvm
low girder
people were excited before venomous buff was even realized and that was a net nerf
lol
loud silo
I don't get how some people would think its going to make envenom do double
its just going to be less globals spent on SnD
balmy condor
Well not actually double
But it’s not as grand as a lot of people make it out to be
Imo at least
loud silo
yeah i was just working off what you said
low girder
if it makes people happier playing the spec then cool, but my initial reaction was oh you're making the spec boring, great
radiant dove
well it isnt the ultra wow buff. but is something imo.
balmy condor
if it makes people happier playing the spec then cool, but my initial reaction w...
Yeh same
shy dust
if it makes people happier playing the spec then cool, but my initial reaction w...
Adding snd was boring
shy dust
Adding another maintained finisher to a slow paced spec is boring
And not rly
It’s just bfa sin basically
shy dust
Then we disagree
loud silo
bfa sin was fine lmao
balmy condor
Bfa sin was carried by essences and azerite
radiant dove
bfa was not about the class. it was about the azerites and corruptions 😛
shy dust
Azerite was useless for rogue basically
balmy condor
And legendaries conduits and soulbinds don’t really have the same kind of impact
low girder
like azshara prog sin was probably the most i've ever disliked a rogue spec
balmy condor
Well DD did quite a lot
manic harness
I mean, I would think in a 5 minute fight you'd press SnD about 7 times
balmy condor
If you liked it or not
shy dust
Not compared
manic harness
that's about 35 extra combo points
loud silo
DD was stupid strong
shy dust
It was not stupid strong
trim zinc
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
shy dust
Stupid strong was BM or ToM
balmy condor
Sure compared to others but it was still better than what we have now
low girder
or pre-nerf chorus
shy dust
Yes
balmy condor
Yes
manic harness
hmm
loud silo
BM was only useful every 2 mins tho
manic harness
I liked 8.3 full haste Assassination
loud silo
Sure in aoe it fucking PUMPED but that was just fire mage
manic harness
I thought CT build was interesting
shy dust
Blaster master was still fine for ST
loud silo
expedient sin was so fun
shy dust
And it still worked outside of combust
balmy condor
CT single target is an abomination
low girder
^
tidal gorge
^
low girder
exsang was the saving grace for that iteration of sin for me
exsang is like the one talent i like
loud silo
yeah sure it worked outside of combust but it lost most of its strength
manic harness
Exsang with that Weak Aura was amazing
open swift
I thought CT build was interesting
CT?
balmy condor
Yeah exsang made it manageable
tidal gorge
It was a monument to how much inflated stats screw up things that it could do more damage in ST than other things as a pure aoe talent
manic harness
I'd always try and get like 2.6 mill damage from each one iirc
balmy condor
There was a weakaura for that?
loud silo
like BM itself wasnt strong but paired with bust and lucid was what made it good
low girder
i think if the math worked out to staying TB i would've lost my mind with that much haste
balmy condor
That sounds incredibly stupid
manic harness
There was a Weak Aura that calculated how much damage your bleeds did during Exsang windows
balmy condor
Why tho
manic harness
Fun, I guess
open swift
ah
manic harness
BIG NUMBERS FUN
balmy condor
Is looking at details not enough
loud silo
I mean whats not fun about hitting 500% haste and popping exsang
shy dust
i think if the math worked out to staying TB i would've lost my mind with that m...
The stupid burst exsang gave out was very fun
manic harness
I guess it's the same after the fight
but it was just another little interesting minigame during fight
you could kind of see if you were setting everything up effectively while in encounter
manic harness
I don't think it was, but I could be wrong
Considering Exsang was such a huge part of our damage?
shy dust
All you did was refresh dots to max before hand
manic harness
^
balmy condor
The 2 min exsangs were
manic harness
yes exactly
shy dust
Thats all you played around
manic harness
I mean no one cared about the non-vanish ones lmao
loud silo
you could also do exsang with shadowmeld
manic harness
but yes, you could basically just see how much output you were getting
balmy condor
Idk maybe it’s another episode of whispyr doesn’t understand zoomer shit
manic harness
prolly
balmy condor
Wa just to see how much your exsang is doing
manic harness
I'm not a zoomer though lol
balmy condor
Seems mega worthless
loud silo
Oh I couldnt care less about that
manic harness
I don't think it was personally
shy dust
Some people like seeing big numbers
manic harness
I don't necessarily agree with that Noot
balmy condor
Well yeh but I don’t look at my lap times in a raid
manic harness
The Weak Aura could give you verification that you were setting up exsang's correctly
loud silo
hey im not trying to be a dick or anything thats just my opinion on that
each to their own
manic harness
I mean when you see 1.2 mill damage one time, then 2.6 mill damage the next time you wonder what didn't get set up right
loud silo
If you knew how much damage you should be doing you dont need the weak aura
manic harness
Yeah but not everyone is a perfect player
loud silo
that has nothing to do with being a perfect player
manic harness
lol
balmy condor
Wa to see big number is sure okay
manic harness
I mean I don't know what you're not getting
stoic needle
So boys, we outsimming outlaw yet? 
trim zinc
now that im not using MA leggo anymore and using zold should i use subt or ma talent??
(just the usual ma for st and subt for more targets??)
low girder
So boys, we outsimming outlaw yet? <a:pepeclown:575609092593156116>
my outlaw is outsimming sub on ST, get me out of this prison
slow marsh
Ok
manic harness
Player switches to exsang from TB, player gets big number one time cause he got Super Garrote, max Rupture, he gets back number
balmy condor
now that im not using MA leggo anymore and using zold should i use subt or ma ta...
Yep, ma 1 target, Subt on 2+
manic harness
Next time, player doesn't remember to refresh Garrote/Rupture and sees smaller number
It's a learning tool is what I'm saying, I guess
stoic needle
my outlaw is outsimming sub on ST, get me out of this prison
SUB IS KILL
manic harness
my outlaw is outsimming sub on ST, get me out of this prison
same :(
slow marsh
I mean sin is outperforming sub atm in raid rankings
drowsy pond
:/
low girder
sin has cleave, sub does not
balmy condor
My point is there exist more accurate ways to learn that you fucked up without a wa that is reliant on azerite proccing at the right time
low girder
therefore overall is better
slow marsh
So now sub is dead last dps in log performance
low girder
doesn't necessarily mean it's a better spec
stoic needle
It's honestly mind blowing to me that they don't have any buffs for sub on the ptr
balmy condor
And part of that is simply “oh my garrote ran out in 2 seconds not 10”
manic harness
Whispyr, it didn't rely on Azerite proccing though?
balmy condor
You serious?
slow marsh
I mean really what can they do with sub
manic harness
3xSS was not a proc
cinder yoke
bring back shuriken combo
balmy condor
OP + Vita proccing in your opener was insane for exsang damage
cinder yoke
😄
low girder
unironically? nerf unholy
drowsy pond
need more than the snd change tho
low girder
that would help
balmy condor
What are you talking about
slow marsh
It needs help for sure but it's tricky with pvp balancing
cinder yoke
but yea, aura buff, buff base shadowdance amp
plenty of shit
pvp balancing can be done separate really easily
drowsy pond
just give it like a pve only aura buff
balmy condor
OP is azerite
drowsy pond
but idk if blizzarrd does that
celest ruin
does the ptr have anything about disenchanting leggos or something
balmy condor
And was a big part of that
manic harness
wait which was OP again?
drowsy pond
also am i supposed to refresh garrote AND rupture when i vanish?
balmy condor
Overwhelming power
manic harness
ohh that one
stoic needle
delete enveloping shadows and give actuall burstto sub again
slow marsh
True
manic harness
I mean sure?
stoic needle
pvp is literally irrelevant, thats what pvp auras are for
balmy condor
also am i supposed to refresh garrote AND rupture when i vanish?
If you run subt, you refresh garrote, if you run nightstalker you vanish rupture, if you run ma you env/mut/env
uneven summit
Doomblade gonna be best in 9.0.5 for all situations with the buff?
slow marsh
Probs not
balmy condor
Doomblade gonna be best in 9.0.5 for all situations with the buff?
Probably more
slow marsh
Zold still
low girder
delete enveloping shadows and give actuall burstto sub again
you'd have to rework deepening shadows if you wanted to do that, but i'm veering off into sub convo
uneven summit
Yeah okay
slow marsh
Doomblade for pvp for sure
uneven summit
Yeah that i can imagine
slow marsh
It's already good so that's juicy it's getting better
stoic needle
i mean MA is still probably better than doomblade in the current pvp meta
the dot on doomblade does negligible damage right now, and will still do negligible damage after the buff
15% more of almost nothing is still almost nothing lol
drowsy pond
If you run subt, you refresh garrote, if you run nightstalker you vanish rupture...
if im running subterfuge and ma should i still refresh garrote?
balmy condor
if im running subterfuge and ma should i still refresh garrote?
Yes
drowsy pond
ty
stoic needle
for 3s yeah probably run doomblade but for 2s and rbgs you need the burst from MA
slow marsh
I disagree I feel having the ability to actually skirmish instead of only bursting for 4 seconds out of stealth will hopefully lead to different play styles
slow marsh
People already survive the burst easily enough
stoic needle
the problem is that skirmishing is useless right now when healers can just heal through your damage
drowsy pond
am i trolling by running MA on assass in raid
stoic needle
not sin's burst lol
shy dust
You just can’t stand there and skirmish as a rogue
drowsy pond
how good is it compared to the execute legendary
shy dust
Or you’ll die
slow marsh
Obviously you can't lol that's not what I mean
stoic needle
what do you mean then