not even sure if it makes it easier tbh
#assassination
strange python
fallow otter
Usually 2 shit overlaps
low girder
we're extending so i'm not totally sure what it does
fallow otter
Maybe this kicks them both in the balls
fallow otter
we're extending so i'm not totally sure what it does
Me too I think, so I can't even rest
Test
solid mica
yeah i just usually have to clear traps and potentially seed run, as I'm up there with ppl that get mechanics
fallow otter
Don't clear traps if you're a seed runner
low girder
if you're not outlaw and doing seeds p3 without cloak you will probably die
like every time
strange python
if you are running a portal, and there is a trap to clear where you want to put it
run into it
the port will break the trap
fallow otter
Outlaw gonna be easiest, forget about dps it ain't a race that one
And outlaw still good dps
subtle imp
feral merlin
is there dummies with an execute amount of health as standard
iron orchid
Still no 226 weaps let's go
fallow otter
Pvp 4head
stoic needle
He's right you know
iron orchid
If I start playing pvp, it means I surrender to blizzard's fucked up system
the good point is
by the time 9.0.5 is live, I still may not have 220+ weapons, and I could use valor points to upgrade weapons to 220
balmy condor
prisma monolithBOT
Mutilate requires a dagger in both hands, this makes using a non dagger weapons undesirable.
deft anchor
!oh
stoic needle
by the time 9.0.5 is live, I still may not have 220+ weapons, and I could use va...
But you have to farm the new weapons again 
junior fiber
hey i want to switch from outlaw (i pref this spe) but i don't know whitch stat i have to focus ?
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
junior fiber
Okay thx ^^
pseudo hamlet
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
teal bloom
is versatility the second highest because of its raw damage or because it also reduces damage taken? It sims about 0.1 lower than crit for me
median mango
Am not at my pc yet, has someone here checked how the haste from Dreamweavers last row sims? Still worse than Niya?
balmy condor
Am not at my pc yet, has someone here checked how the haste from Dreamweavers la...
yes
median mango
Thanks. 😄
balmy condor
is versatility the second highest because of its raw damage or because it also r...
your personal gain from a stat depends heavily on your gear, the BiS list profiles actually have haste at about half value of crit/vers
balmy condor
limber lion
Anyone got the link to the advanced sim?
balmy condor
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
pliant roost
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
limber lion
just bookmark it tbh
Probably should 
open quartz
Hey fam how much haste % should one have at 60?
limber lion
Doesn't matter. As much as you can get.
balmy condor
well
not quite, but the correct answer is sim yourself
BiS list avoids haste on like 4 pieces
so there are definitely points where you don't want to just full slam haste
limber lion
Well yeah true. That wont be an issue when you're still gearing up a a fresh 60 though. But definitely won't be optimized at 225+ ilvl.
balmy condor
well if they're gearing, I think the suggestion should be to equip highest ilvl
limber lion
True.
balmy condor
imma stop you there
cause whatever you're about to link
is completely irrelevant
you don't "need" any stats to swap
there are better stats to have in each situation
but literally just equip your highest ilvl gear, and there's a pretty good chance you're already optimized
open quartz
but literally just equip your highest ilvl gear, and there's a pretty good chanc...
will do, tyvm!
balmy condor
np
pseudo hamlet
How are you guys doing DPS in M+ with the MA ring? I mean, shouldn't we put up as much Garrotes as possible? Wouldn't the crit window be wasted?
Or just play with Zoldyck?
torn atlas
@balmy condor using your elvui setup and bar 1 doesn't switch to stealth bar, is that something I've fucked up or how it's meant to be set up?
balmy condor
How are you guys doing DPS in M+ with the MA ring? I mean, shouldn't we put up a...
the crit is kinda wasted on pulls, but when you vanish it's usually pretty good burst. I still prefer zoldyck. Sims about the same, little higher for me personally, and is completely passive
torn atlas
yeah that's fair
I've just been running around for a while trying to figure out why I can't sap anything haha
balmy condor
if you'd like to use a stealth bar, it's not difficult to set up
unhide all the bars, find the bar that you used to use for stealth (it might be one of the disabled ones)
and then change the paging for bar 1, to that bar
pseudo hamlet
That what I thought, I really like Zoldyck 😄
inland heath
what is the pick for last talent in mythic+ ?
pseudo hamlet
Crimson Tempest I think
inland heath
crimson dmg seems low and the sims tells me to go hidden blades
pseudo hamlet
The forbidden talent 
arctic walrus
I’m not exactly sure or how you got a 3 minute dslice
arctic walrus
inland heath
soo the dungeon slice sim is fucked?
arctic walrus
Yeah don’t sim weekly, don’t ask me why I’m just telling you
balmy condor
you managed to get a 3 min dungeon slice
inland heath
lol ty
torn atlas
and then change the paging for bar 1, to that bar
awesome, cheers
inland heath
soo what is the difference of nighty vs weekly dungeon slice :o?
balmy condor
absolutely nothing
mossy crown
clarify, higher ilvl in MH?
inland heath
for mythic+ you always go MFD?
inland heath
i just hate mfd
inland heath
and will probably miss it up
what does mikanikos exactly do? ppl play with that over pelagos or it is just cuz i have shit gear
inland heath
ohhh soo the effect of the guy is shit after 90 atacks
balmy condor
no, that's bron
inland heath
lol ty for replying sorry so many questions i just rerolled from outlaw 😄
balmy condor
np
outer lodge
So idk if i am mentally challenged or what... but I cannot make a simple weakaura for the Blindside free ambush proc....
outer lodge
i even tried to grab one from wago and it doesnt work
balmy condor
outer lodge
help me senpai
daring pecan
the information you're providing
balmy condor
have you tried
daring pecan
is... basically non-existent 
outer lodge
kk
balmy condor
got it?
outer lodge
yep that works perfect.. ty
balmy condor
pleasure
strange python
yea higher llvl mainhand is crazy 
if I swap my 220 mainhand with my 216 offhand I lose like 150 dps
or some crazy number
kindred crescent
its offical my assas does more dps then sub
balmy condor
pliant apex
i keep messing the dance on council, even though i never do the wrong step, what can be the reason
do i dance too much, like shimmy left, i go left too much, i certainly dont stop till see the confetti
balmy condor
you're not standing in the right square
solar hare
its offical my assas does more dps then sub
Survival hunter does more damage than sub 
pliant apex
i make sure i go stand in spotlight
balmy condor
well if you do that, you just move 1 square in the direction that everyone else is going
balmy condor
yes
pliant apex
since i keep going
balmy condor
each call out is 1 square
pliant apex
ohh
balmy condor
like you'll have little goblins basically all around you
pliant apex
i always leave formation
balmy condor
just do what they do
balmy condor
yeah don't do that
only ever to the square next to you
so if it's forward
you go into the square in front of you
pliant apex
ahh so out of my sqaure, and end of next square?
balmy condor
and stop
and then it'll be like
go left
and you go to the square to the left of you
and stop
balmy condor
middle is fine, but you should get the trigger + confetti pretty much the moment you cross over
anywhere in that square is fine though
pliant apex
ahh , and i keep walking ill mess up
i need to stop right time to get the confetti
thanks much whisp, ill def try this out
one more question if you dont mind, on artificer, last phase, i step on portal next to sword, during the sucking in.. and i end up on opposite portal. for some reason i get sucked in again and then just die
its happened multiple times on the fight now
and idk what to do
balmy condor
you're in the yellow one, boss says go forward, you go to that square, and stop, wait for the next one
pliant apex
is there something im doing wrong after taking portal next to sword?
ahhh
very helpful
balmy condor
one more question if you dont mind, on artificer, last phase, i step on portal n...
depends on how you guys do the portals
we do one on the edge of the room, one slightly off of the center
pliant apex
we drop portal in middle, next to sword, but a little ahead of it
yea us too, slighty off at center
since sword is at center
once i take that , end up on portal next to boss in melee range, what next?
i get sucked in again, take portal again, and just insta die in an explosion mid air
pliant apex
yea
balmy condor
boss is black, raid is green
small red circle is the sword
big red is the explosion
and X are the portals
pliant apex
understood
pliant apex
till i cant right
balmy condor
you wan to get sucked in like that
and then when the timer is at like 0.5-1.5 left, close to done
dive into the portal
balmy condor
ye
pliant apex
now what, i get sucked in again for some reason
balmy condor
dive in later then
balmy condor
if you jump into the portal, and you get sucked in again
pliant apex
coz i surely take it right, i end up next to boss without dying
balmy condor
you're jumping in too late
pliant apex
oh
balmy condor
let me see if I have a vod somewhere
go to 01:01:00
we get the mechanic then
I actually go into the portal a little earlier than usual
pliant apex
ty seeing now
you just cleared traps and just took portal next to sword
then you shadowstepped as soon as got out? i think
and didnt get sucked in again
our tank doesnt bring boss in the circle, and i think to maximize dps i stay out too long
balmy condor
nah, no shadowstep
you can see my abilities being cast on the left
there's another cast of the suck like a minute later
that one's pretty good
same thing though
just run against it, dip in very late
pliant apex
i understand what youre saying, and i should be doing right , but ive died enough times to the same mechanic for it to be a problem now sadly
balmy condor
unlucky
pliant apex
i get sucked in right away, and i think i just now need to pug and try to emulate you
pliant apex
why is it sucking me in two times though
pliant apex
ah
balmy condor
so when you pop out the other side
it's still going
so you just get sucked back in
and then it explodes
balmy condor
or if you're a mega weirdo, you could technically run into it early on purpose, get sucked in, and then run into it again
pliant apex
yea na, that sounds really hard lol
balmy condor
I mean
pliant apex
but you mean as long as i dont let it explode on me, i should be fine. thats the problem
balmy condor
by the sound of it, you're almost there
the solution is either jump into the portal later, and not get sucked in
or jump in even earlier, and get sucked in twice
pliant apex
you reckon former way is easier right
balmy condor
oh definitely, yeah
pliant apex
ty, ill let you know how it went. appreciate the help
balmy condor
np
quasi ledge
Just run into the wall as it starts. As soon as it starts to become powerful enough to drag you back then use sprint, then make sure you have a weak area (or look at the circle on the ground) and as soon as its about to explode you shadowstep to the boss or other player at the wall, that's if you're even in the circle
balmy condor
or that
pliant apex
oh my that sounds real challenging , rn at least
ty though might try that too if cant fix
quasi ledge
It is the most simple way of avoiding it. Face the wall and hold W. Stare at the weakaura and press sprint about halfway through. Rarely even need to Shadowstep, only if I'm not at the wall from the start of the drag back due to other mechanics etc
tribal mauve
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
pliant apex
It is the most simple way of avoiding it. Face the wall and hold W. Stare at the...
ic ic
fickle agate
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
solar hare
pog
stoic needle
Hell yeah
south nest
Should I refresh the dots for Suldgefist only when he gets 100% more dmg, for the enhanced garrote. Or should I already us vanish just before and refresh dots so I can spam envenom through. Currently I renew the dots just before he charges to the pillar and then hit full envenom through (5-6cp)?
torn hinge
is kleia better now that we have access to the 5% extra crit?
grave cove
@balmy condor tx for posting your stream earlier! Learnin loads about sin already. I noticed you ran with Herbs instead of Burrs in a +15 SD - is Herbs really better than Burrs in M+?
iron orchid
<@!167090536602140682> tx for posting your stream earlier! Learnin loads about s...
In most cases yes, but you would usually run Korayn/First Strike, which is stronger than herbs
stoic needle
Should I refresh the dots for Suldgefist only when he gets 100% more dmg, for th...
The way you're doing it currently is correct. Refresh before the pillar
iron orchid
is kleia better now that we have access to the 5% extra crit?
According to my personal sims, it is better on ST
torn hinge
According to my personal sims, it is better on ST
is raid bots taking into account the 5% atm? cuz i lost around 30 dps by switching
south nest
The way you're doing it currently is correct. Refresh before the pillar
thank you 😄
iron orchid
is raid bots taking into account the 5% atm? cuz i lost around 30 dps by switchi...
If you set it correctly, there is no reason it wouldn't take it into account
You can link you sim here, if you want us to check it out for you
icy crater
damn thats not bad at all, my 220 outlaw is simming 6005 DPS
I just got a 2nd 220 dagger last night so I'm going to try sin this week
grave cove
im def going sin as soon as i can craft 235 zoldy - my pulls as outlaw can be so inconsistent at times
one pull i can get TB and BS on opener, and on another im rolling GM 5 times in a row
icy crater
math dictates it evens out over time but
It's def annoying when you have a fight with insane rolls, good procs, crits etc and you wipe
then kill when you roll gm/bt for 3 minutes
grave cove
It's def annoying when you have a fight with insane rolls, good procs, crits etc...
that is exactly it
was about to parse 99% on sludge the other day, wiped and ended up parsing 65% on kill
pure agony
icy crater
I don't even know how outlaw works on sludge, get lucky with TB and get AR for pillars? lul
Even then its not even bursty so idk
grave cove
I don't even know how outlaw works on sludge, get lucky with TB and get AR for p...
Pretty much lol
icy crater
I did the last 3 on heroic last night and was doing less dps than I was 5-10 ilvl ago
quaint dragon
Whats best covenant atm is it still kyrian?
stoic needle
Night fae
celest ruin
top 3 parse 
eternal portal
well just got the quantum device out of my weekly, 720 secondary stat and 20+k execute hits from it.
seems strong
strange python
Think they're going to actually change anything for us in the .5 patch?
Having that attack range buff on Flagelation is such a game changer /s
eternal portal
rogues just prob. late in their development? in alpha/beta rogue was also last that got changes or not?
celest ruin
does it stack with outlaw range passive?
strange python
that'd be wild if it did
Do you guys rock stats or skirm on your chest? Sims always say skirm but I read stats are better when it's not pure ST
eternal portal
run the sim again mb in dungeonslice? you simmed it in patchwerk prob. or?
stoic needle
Sims say skirm for both st and aoe
stoic needle
well just got the quantum device out of my weekly, 720 secondary stat and 20+k e...
IQD is amazing. I'd kill for that trinket
visual totem
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
deft parcel
I just don't "get" what I'm supposed to do in situations where there's 2-3 targets
can someone briefly explain
quaint dragon
is the execute damage from zoldyck calculated in the sims?
stoic needle
is the execute damage from zoldyck calculated in the sims?
Yes
stoic needle
can someone briefly explain
Use mutilate to build cp and keep up garotte and rupture on all targets. Between refreshing, you dump cp with envenom
grave cove
Fuuck im 80 soul ash short this week for zold
Anyone have a good addon for mission tables?
Want to clear a mission for the remaining ash
stoic needle
Venture plan
oak arrow
Covenant mission helper.
frank sail
So ive simmed my rogue, and its telling me to put sinful rev on my main hand and celestial on offhand.. surely this is wrong? as throughtout the history of wow offhands have always been the main proc point of a weapon
grave cove
Tx for the recs
deft parcel
@stoic needle hey i forgot to say thanks for helping me
trim zinc
why thats better then skulkers??(just cuz skulkers doesnt work sometimes??)
strange python
So ive simmed my rogue, and its telling me to put sinful rev on my main hand and...
I don't think it matters anymore. I could be wrong though
frank sail
yeh thats what im wondering, cheers 🙂 got a nice 216 wep in the vault a nice change from 2x 194 xD
stoic needle
why thats better then skulkers??(just cuz skulkers doesnt work sometimes??)
It's fire damage, so it goes through armor and it always hits your target unlike skulker's
rough scaffold
Anyone use the 'poisoned katar' conduit with dashing scoundril + hidden blades for a Torghast AOE build?
Seem like it should work well for energy recoup and p dmg
dull cloak
i use that if i play sin in rbgs
rough scaffold
oh cool, hows that work?
stoic needle
You don't really need to run any of those things for torghast tbh
Mobs just melt with normal CT
dull cloak
big damage
rough scaffold
Yeah im just trying to speed up my TOrghast experience!
Last night - lvl 8 FINAL mob and... SERVER RESET!
stoic needle
A 190 MA will do more than all of that tbh
And once you get to about 210 ilvl you can just skip all the mobs and kill the end bosses and collect the powers only
I'm at 218 now and I basically afk through torghast lol
rough scaffold
Oh wow. Im about to build the 210 MA or.. my 190 Zoldyacks.... I dont know which!!
Oh damn i didnt know that Oshi thanks
stoic needle
I'd go for zold. If you haven't gotten the torghast upgrades from venari get I highly recommend those
They give you better powers from the orbs and cheaper orbs from the brokers
Like, I wish hidden blades and poisoned katar were good but they just aren't 
rough scaffold
Oh cool, I have some ill get the rest today. I dont think i have that one that offers more options
stoic needle
By the time you wait around to get a bunch of hidden blades stacks you could've just killed the pack normally
rough scaffold
I guess im doing it wrong - i spread dots then single taget every mob in torghast!
takes some time i must admit
rough scaffold
Good point. Maybe Ill save that build for RBG's like Ember
gleaming eagle
having zold is like having execute on sin
trim zinc
It's fire damage, so it goes through armor and it always hits your target unlike...
make sense ty ❤️
gleaming eagle
i want to use ma though
crit vanish when they are under 30% health in pvp seems fun
too bad we cant use 2 leggo
oak arrow
i like watching them bleed out hehe
trim zinc
i only have MA
i should do zold but i dont have another ring to put on place
stoic needle
The ma vanish thing is fun but it really doesn't work very well
If there's a healer they just heal through it
If it's a 1v1 it might work, but a lot of times it's not enough to finish them, people have just so much hp now
gleaming eagle
big gear big dmg
spice spire
yeah that seems kinda low, but you're also on 5 minute execute
split veldt
wait is it execute for the whole 5 minutes?
stoic needle
Yeah
split veldt
oh lol
stoic needle
Make it 2 min or 3 min
split veldt
how do i sim zold then
spice spire
You can sim zold on a normal patchwerk sim
spice spire
currently I'm only at 5500 at 214. 210 and 203 weapons though 🙂
stoic needle
I'm at 5.7 at 218
oak arrow
^same at 213. I think trinkets play a big part too.
im starting to stack more mastery for execute phase so poisons and bleeds tick harder.
gusty mirage
I did it guys, I switched my loot to sin yesterday and got a 226 haste/vers dagger :3
shy dust
Grats dude!
iron orchid
I did it guys, I switched my loot to sin yesterday and got a 226 haste/vers dagg...
gratz man
rough scaffold
omg spindaled that DPS is sick
oak arrow
2min execute. its usually around 5700. but thats why i want more mastery haha for the execute phase
frozen jasper
stoic needle
If I had a Phial and less mastery I'd break 6k ez
lapis jungle
Korayn or Niya this week?
balmy condor
Korayn in m+
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> tx for posting your stream earlier! Learnin loads about s...
I like herbs for the consistency, korayn is stronger though if you're looking for that aoe/burst. The fact that it's only on pull for a short period of time kinda makes me avoid it for tyrannical weeks, and honestly I don't notice much of a difference compared to herbs, so I would say play whatever you'd prefer. If you use korayn on outlaw or sub or something, feel free to use herbs, still very good
icy crater
I did it guys, I switched my loot to sin yesterday and got a 226 haste/vers dagg...
got a 213 I'm upgrading to 220
I'm also switching NF today probably and gonna try and get renown before next week
rough scaffold
Anyone know if raidbots can sim differnt conduit choices, like we can do for talents?
balmy condor
yep, through top gear
rough scaffold
great thank you Whispyr
tribal marlin
Herbs is possible to sim ?
balmy condor
it procs off of passive health regen as well
procs off of literally everything
leech too
tribal marlin
okok
whole dew
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
rough scaffold
Is the correct addon for raidbots "Simcompare" (there are a few in Overwolf>)
a few similar ones i mean
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
oak arrow
should be this if im not mistaken.
gleaming eagle
anyone test out kyrian if its better than niya?
limber lion
Yeah, First Strike is good because you get many opportunities to use it there.
limber lion
Herbs is a close match and honestly a preference at this point.
gleaming eagle
but isnt first strike only works 5 second at the start of the fight?
or does it continue?
limber lion
First Strike isn't great on Tyrannical weeks though obviously.
rough scaffold
Got it thank you guys. "Top gear" on raidbots is really impressive!
(relpying to 5 min ago lol!)
balmy condor
raidbots in general is a really clean interface for simulationcraft
seriallos really did a good job
icy crater
and $3 is cheap 🙂
balmy condor
I just share my login with my guild
I mean uh
Account sharing is bad and not good and you shouldn't do it
tidal gorge
What kind of overall are you guys doing in 14+ keys anyway? Just curious
limber lion
Around 6.5k
jagged bobcat
so am i getting Dashing Scoundrel or Zoldyck for raid leggo
limber lion
Depends a lot on the dungeon though.
balmy condor
zoldyck
limber lion
so am i getting Dashing Scoundrel or Zoldyck for raid leggo
Zoldyck
jagged bobcat
lit ty
rough scaffold
I noticed the guide says Dashing Scoundrel is good on single target but falls on more targets. I guess the energy recoup from AOE isnt worth the effort then? Seems like it should be the other way around. I guess D.S. isnt as good as it seems
balmy condor
the strength of dashing is the energy
and on multiple targets, lets say 3
we're getting 3x the energy
which then significantly reduces the value of energy obviously
rough scaffold
Ok I see, so it is worth focus on the energy returns
I'm going to try some AOE builds with it this afternoon on my torghast run. I need 1 more run to build my Z.I.
balmy condor
it's just that having a couple more energy here and there isn't really a gain, when you're already slamming 3-4 garrotes and a couple ruptures, and basically capped on energy to begin with
balmy condor
any time
balmy condor
I'm going to try some AOE builds with it this afternoon on my torghast run. I ne...
something to note when you're gonna run torg, take MP and leeching
you'll feel a little weak on the first 1-2 floors, but if you pick up some good powers, you'll end up just leeching/sustaining through everything
rough scaffold
ill try that thanks
shy dust
@balmy condor
balmy condor
@shy dust
shy dust
sin has the strongest execute out of all specs with BiS gear currently?
balmy condor
no
shy dust
did guy just lie to me
balmy condor
I think unholy and aff is stronger
shy dust
check outlaw sir
icy crater
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
D:
whole dew
!talents
whole dew
ty
grave cove
I like herbs for the consistency, korayn is stronger though if you're looking fo...
Just saw this - thx Whispyr. Much appreciated.
tribal marlin
!8
sin officially best execute spec and 2nd best PI target
We just need to take care of the hunter problem and there we go
limber lion
We need to get the public to be aware of it as well. That's the biggest thing
I still get whispers like "Why are you playing assa? Isn't it shit?" on the daily
cursive plaza
crit/hit stats for legendary for ST or cleave right?
balmy condor
haste + crit/vers
icy crater
I have almost full haste/vers so hopefully im chillin when I swap sin
drifting cloud
At 700 vers its worse than mastery for me
tribal marlin
I'll advice to go crit / haste since there are quite some versa gear in raid and most of all from PvP
might be harder to grab haste and crit than versa currently
cursive plaza
well i got a mostly crit/vers sub pvp set i raid with, so ya maybe crit haste, only rly wanna play SIN for artificer, sire, maybe generals tho so looking at stat weights for heavy movement and cleave
random fossil
is sin actually the 2nd best PI target?
stiff mountain
anyone know how well assa will be next raid or far too early yet
subtle tundra
far too early
balmy condor
🔮
shy dust
sin officially best execute spec and 2nd best PI target
Link sims in dms 
balmy condor
We don’t even know what “next tier” is
tribal marlin
Link sims in dms <:think:698746165050605630>
balmy condor
3 min full execute pi comparison pooooooooggggggggggers
shy dust
Is warrior the second highest?
balmy condor
0 combat variation pooooooggggggggers
wind nymph
soo, ambush or mut while in stealth with subterfuge? what do u think?
tribal marlin
0 combat variation pooooooggggggggers
That's with Delaying Sepsis for 2nd vendetta as well :3
balmy condor
So wait on 3 min execute we are the highest
On EXACTLY 3 min actually
balmy condor
soo, ambush or mut while in stealth with subterfuge? what do u think?
Never ambush unless from a blindside proc
shy dust
So
tribal marlin
hahaha I know you don't like my habit with vary_combat_lenght=0
balmy condor
I don’t like a lot of things you do miki ;)
gusty mirage
I still get whispers like "Why are you playing assa? Isn't it shit?" on the dail...
I'd reply "If you want you could pay my sub and play my character for me"
tribal marlin
but I'm so mad when I get some wierd results with the SINGLE iteration shown which is 4mn or 2mn when I ask for a 3mn sim 😄
wind nymph
Never ambush unless from a blindside proc
so if i;m not using blindside i can basically remove it from the bar, thanks
dark vigil
yes
wind nymph
is there any utility to use ambush with blindside?
dark vigil
if ur doing m+ u will never use ambush basically
wind nymph
nice
dark vigil
u use it because it gives you combo points and its free
no energy cost
with blindside proc
dark vigil
wat
idk what ur saying
ambush is a stealth only ability usually but if blindside procs
it allows you to use it outside of sealth for free
and gives you 2 minimum combo points
but you should be running elaborate planning for m+
so ambush basically unused
balmy condor
Blindside is used in single target and that’s it
tribal marlin
I don’t like a lot of things you do miki ;)
why so 😦 ?
balmy condor
You use ambush only with blindside
tacit pebble
setting combat length variance to 0 is so helpful for simming for an individual fight, one of my favorite things once i learned how to use it
dark vigil
ppl rely on sims too much
balmy condor
why so 😦 ?
I think some of the stuff you sim aren’t very productive, and leads to claims like “sin is the best execute” and then linking a very very niche, specific sim that doesn’t really tell the story entirely
dark vigil
only things u wanna sim really is gear differences
sin has a top 3 execute but its dmg from 100% to 30% is so bad it doesnt matter
balmy condor
And like, sims aren’t the end all, but things like variance help to make it more realistic
shy dust
Except
tribal marlin
then we should sim with initial health = 40%
shy dust
It’s execute does matter
tribal marlin
for everyone
shy dust
It’s a very good spec for sire
tribal marlin
and see which is best between DK / Warrio and Rogue
shy dust
And should probably be the go to for rogues at this point for that fight
tribal marlin
(Spoiler : It's DK )
tacit pebble
Sims give exactly as much info as you look for imo, if youre simming properly you can find a lot about weird situations talent/condy choices
And yea, sin owns for p2/p3 sire pretty hard now which is nice
balmy condor
(Spoiler : It's DK )
Isn’t that literally the opposite of what you said earlier with sin being the best
Like yes you can go down a rabbit hole with sims
And sim very specific things
To make things look good
But what’s the fucking point
icy crater
All of the Damage?
tacit pebble
dk will always be more useful because of amz anyway!!!
balmy condor
If I’m simming for specifically 2:47 length on fae syncing sepsis and vendetta for that and we start at 32% and get a PI on these specific timings
Then POG WE GOT DAM
But like
Sims are already not indicative of reality entirely
And you’re restricting the sim even harder than it already is
tribal marlin
I did 3mn 30% starting health for everyone expect for warrior I did starting health 20%
dark vigil
how about instead
you look at some logs of fights that have actually happened
i did this over the course of about 30-40 logs with top performers
sin is top 3-4 sub 30%
but the rest of it is so bad it doesnt make up for it
tacit pebble
because top performers arent all that great for low played specs
dark vigil
and theres no reason to take a sin over an unholy dk
tribal marlin
and theres no reason to take a sin over an unholy dk
for now
tacit pebble
Sin sire could still go much higher
wind nymph
idk what ur saying
was trying to say that:
is it worth to play blindside even if i'm using zoldyk as lego in ST situations?
balmy condor
and theres no reason to take a sin over an unholy dk
We’re specifically talking about miki’s sim evaluations here and how I disagree with his philosophy on simming, not really any balance things
dark vigil
of course
shy dust
of course
Do you understand how
There are scenarios where 100-30%
Matter significantly
Less than execute
For example the current M end boss.
tacit pebble
P1 literally does not matter though, and sin is pretty good p2 and excellent p3
balmy condor
Like I think simming execute is valuable, don’t get me wrong
tacit pebble
So sin actually ends up being a good spec for sire, not as good as dk obviously, but good
balmy condor
There’s a reason why there’s a fight type specifically for it
dark vigil
sin is pretty good for p3 sire yea
tribal marlin
Well when I simmed myself for Sire and I did an evaluation I first started with 40% health 3mn sim
which is exactly Sire
balmy condor
But you can’t just restrict and restrict and restrict
dark vigil
and not bad for executing p2 adds
tribal marlin
but lust was not at the correct timing tho
shy dust
Not bad for executing
P2 is constant cleave
And priority adds
Sin is still very good for P2 and one of the best specs for p3
balmy condor
And then go “hey look at this! When I very specifically sim this one situation exactly, it’s pog!”
dark vigil
yeah run crimson tempest specifically cause of p1 and p2
shy dust
P2 of sire
balmy condor
Crimson tempest on sire
shy dust
Has a constant 2 targets at least
tacit pebble
I bet itd be more overall, we'll see a china man do it soon
shy dust
4 when there are cabalist
dark vigil
its defintiely more over all
balmy condor
Monka fucking S
dark vigil
but less for p3 of course
dark vigil
of course
shy dust
So do you see why sin having a truck load of execute damage
Can make up lackluster damage
shy dust
In specific scenarios from this raid
dark vigil
it should have more execute than an unholy considering unholy also has AMS, AMZ, death strike, 10% more hp than any other melee
shy dust
I do not care
tacit pebble
Over an unholy sure, because unholy is the best melee in the game by 6 miles
shy dust
For arguing about what a spec should or shouldn’t have
dark vigil
of course this isnt a balance discussion
shy dust
Sin doesn’t have to invest in cleave
dark vigil
but you have to point it out for viabliity
shy dust
Sin naturally does good cleave
tacit pebble
Sin is absolutely still a valuable pick for the fight, even if they arent unholy
No one outside the top 10 has 6 dks ready to go
tribal marlin
tho 3mn sim also fit good for DK
they can AotD once, use DT 3 time
and warriors can use CD twice as well
doing more 4mn would be pointless
maybe 2mn is relevant but not in favor of rogue ofc because of aotd
and for the initial health, well I was evaluating execute dps so
could have start 20% doesn't matter
dark vigil
pi still better for stuff like fire mage
balmy condor
Not in p3 specifically
stoic needle
i actually dont think that UH does that much more damage than sin in p1-2 of sire. sin's cleave isn't as bad as you think and UH's single target is proving to be slightly lackluster while sin has had 20% of aura buffs
balmy condor
But in general, yeh probably
stoic needle
i've seen UH sims passed around that aren't much different from optimized sin sims
at similar ilvl
balmy condor
i actually dont think that UH does that much more damage than sin in p1-2 of sir...
you realize those 20% still put us at the fucking bottom right
stoic needle
yeah but the gap is smaller now
dusky vault
#closingthegap
icy crater
dat gap
balmy condor
It’s still pretty large
drifting cloud
well you see we dont have a uh!
dark vigil
even if u dont have an uh
just take a warrior, brings rallying bshout
take a fire mage
take a spriest
¯_(ツ)_/¯
drifting cloud
what are you even talking about
dark vigil
im saying
rogues are in such a rough spot
theres really no raeson to bring one even with its good execute
drifting cloud
rogue is good on sire.
dark vigil
i lvoe my sin
drifting cloud
you just sound like you dont know what youre talking about
dark vigil
lol
strange python
I mean he's not wrong, rogues are in a pretty bad spot atm in terms of higher end prog
we're getting later in the tier now though and that starts to take effect in ways
drifting cloud
well hes replying to me and I was replying to miki about execute sims
icy crater
don't say the word
strange python
the word?
icy crater
the s word
strange python
oh later in the tier has nothing to do with scaling
later in the tier just means that pinnacle raiding isn't as necessary
but... it DOES still matter that we don't bring anything that something else can
dark vigil
its the same thing max was saying
dark vigil
if a class brings better dmg and also brings utility that's useful.. why ever bring something that has no utility>
blizz needs to balance and either give classes with no utility more dmg than ones that bring utility
or give them utility
ie arcane mage
icy crater
People also have to remember he's speaking from a world first only point of view. Not 2nd, not third, not 10th. And certainly not a guild that's like 7/10M right now.
strange python
People also have to remember he's speaking from a world first only point of view...
there is something else to take into account for this though
faint harness
if a class brings better dmg and also brings utility that's useful.. why ever br...
you likely dont play in a guild with all specs available
strange python
a lot of guilds who ARE say 7/10 etc are also just NOW sitting in largely similar gear that they were at the time of the end of THEIR prog
so a lot of what they encountered is still an issue
not all of course with encounter nerfs
icy crater
They killed sire at like 215?
strange python
but a lot
faint harness
max also says its better to take a good player on a bad spec than a bad player on a good spec for lower tier mythic raiding
faint harness
They killed sire at like 215?
220 avg
strange python
^
drifting cloud
no limit was 222 on sire
faint harness
they had good gear
icy crater
Maybe I'm confused on which boss was 215, I remember that number for some reason.
drifting cloud
slg was 215
faint harness
sludge
icy crater
ah
drifting cloud
then another reset + boatload of boes
faint harness
they bought boes
strange python
that's the bigger part, in the end especially later in the tier taking a good raider full stop will always trump a perfect class
the question though is "if you ARE THAT "good raider" would we rather have you on a boomy/unh? or a rogue?"
and that doesn't become less relevent
just less required
so it's not wrong to say rogues are in a rough spot, they are, I fucking LOVE my rogue, I'll still say that with 1000% certainty
useless? fuck no
icy crater
so it's not wrong to say rogues are in a rough spot, they are, I fucking LOVE my...
I agree.
But its also disingenuous to take someone's word out of context.
Even if it by chance agrees with your position and is in fact true.
strange python
But its also disingenuous to take someone's word out of context.
I don't think I could ever agree with something more than that statement
dark vigil
well if you watch the videos
you can see his takes are relevant even for lower end players
it isnt a tier list shit
strange python
I didn't say irrelevant, just less so
like I said, they were well geared on their kills, so it's still relevant
drifting cloud
nah maxs takes are still pretty wf oriented
hes just slightly wrong on small things
talking about rogues being unplayable and r3 or 4 had a rogue on sire
drifting cloud
yeah fsy I just forget if they were 3 or 4
faint harness
4 i think
dark vigil
they were undergeared for their kills
dark vigil
they were overgeard at the time mythic came out. but were undergeared for what the fights are designed for
if that makes sense
dark vigil
for sire yeah
balmy condor
dark vigil
prior to sire
balmy condor
wtf did I come back to
faint harness
what
drifting cloud
they are wf raiders they dont need gear for first 70% of the raid
faint harness
you know you can easily check this shit up right
dark vigil
exactly
balmy condor
you know you can easily check this shit up right
no fact, only feel
dark vigil
214 for sludge is pretty undergeared, guilds struggle on 220 ilvl avg
but they're very good
dark vigil
i think the most bonkers is the 206 ilvl council
yeah i dont remember either
oh the point i was making was that when you're undergeared you cant afford to take something that is anything below optimal
which only applies to wfirst raiding
faint harness
well its that + the fact that they CAN use any spec
because their players can fill almost any spec
dark vigil
ooh yeah
faint harness
they have a tight roster
dark vigil
they said they almost took outlaw on denathrius and generals but it was just lacking and unholy was too good
faint harness
well outlaw is "bad" on sire because it deals most of its damage in the irrelevant parts of the fight
even tho it has good cleave for p1-p2
icy crater
It's just a worse windwalker on that fight no?
icy crater
Theres like 270+ outlaw logs on M sire tho
dark vigil
real question is why is it okay for windwalker to do more boss dmg and also bring a raid buff, have more mobility
and have much much much stronger aoe
but thats a balance thing
distant cypress
Wonky is such a bad word for a total shit fest that balance is in SL rn
faint harness
Theres like 270+ outlaw logs on M sire tho
ppl see big number, ppl play spec
dusky vault
Honestly I've seen worse historically
faint harness
i can bet that 90% are chinese outlaws
drifting cloud
nah prolly not
dusky vault
Be thankful rogue is at least still the best/2nd best melee m+ class
drifting cloud
its not nzoth 
icy crater
i can bet that 90% are chinese outlaws
If I go back and look you're probably right.
drifting cloud
I guess na/eu just has soo many more private logs
dark vigil
i think overall shadowlands balance is kinda ok
and theyve done a decen tjob
just some shit suffers hard
compared to the past its definitely better
rustic thunder
Slice and Dice Slice and Dice increases Energy regeneration by 10%.```Idk about that
icy crater
hes trolling
dark vigil
oh boyt
shy dust
balmy condor
god fuck
icy crater
LOL @balmy condor
spice spire
@balmy condor LMAO
balmy condor
they even named it the same thing
those whores
duskwalker buff is kinda crazy though
rustic thunder
lmao sub going down the drain rn
dark vigil
no spoielrs
balmy condor
also flag seems to be reverted
rustic thunder
Now available to all specs``` okbut removed the the second gcd
rustic thunder
ok this makes flag viable now
balmy condor
I mean, it doesn't
drifting cloud
does it tho
echo cargo
@balmy condor THEY NOTICED YOU SENPAI
echo cargo
probably not but it's nice to dream
balmy condor
I would be pretty fucking pissed if they noticed me in here
saying cut to the chase SHOULD NOT come back
and then they added it back
just to spite me
echo cargo
lmao
faint harness
why didnt you want it back
balmy condor
its not productive to moving the spec into a better place
shy dust
Was bfa sin a bad place?
balmy condor
they could've made the shit passive, would've been the same change
dark vigil
dud ehwa tthe fuck is this
balmy condor
or they could've removed it, and buffed accordingly, would've been the same thing
rustic thunder
hey the snd buff is nice
ashen anchor
Was bfa sin a bad place?
It was pretty great in Ny'alotha when we could stack massive haste from corruption
dark vigil
5% atk power to 100%
rustic thunder
all specs get it now
shy dust
No it wasn’t great in 8.3
balmy condor
I personally like snd, and I like having to maintain things, that's why I like sin
removing that is fucking stupid
faint harness
all specs get it now
wdym all specs get it
balmy condor
when that's what the spec is
faint harness
all specs has snd
rustic thunder
all specs get the energy regen now
balmy condor
all specs has snd
the change reads that the 10% energy part get it
rustic thunder
only assa had it
faint harness
right
rustic thunder
yep could be
balmy condor
It was pretty great in Ny'alotha when we could stack massive haste from corrupti...
fuck 8.3 haste sin
echo cargo
but that was fun 😦
shut garnet
y tho
out of all bfa tiers EP sin was golden age for sure
but 8.3 sin really wasnt that bad?
ashen anchor
Dude the exsang build was huuuge fun!
balmy condor
if I want a pepega 70 million APM spec I would play outlaw
dusky fulcrum
ASSASSIN NEW TOP BUILD
pulsar sluice
safe canopy
idk for pve at least sin as destroying single target in uldir
balmy condor
idk for pve at least sin as destroying single target in uldir
??????????????
shut garnet
i mean it wasnt 70 million apm, you did the same things you did when you had 40% haste, you just spammed muti+envenom faster and you benefitted a lot more from multidotting and shit
balmy condor
are we playing different games
dusky fulcrum
WE BREAKING OUT THE MOP SET AGAIN BOIS
shut garnet
thats highly dependant on what rank you play at
safe canopy
CE
alpine garden
collectors edition
shut garnet
there's like 1k guilds or so every tier that get cutting edge
balmy condor
sin was like
safe canopy
collectors edition
this
shut garnet
sin's always been a mid range spec in bfa
rustic thunder
assa will probably get some more changes in 9.1
watch it become top rogue raiding spec
dark vigil
ptr still will have more rounds of changes
shut garnet
does it need em tho?
karmic tusk
Cut to the chase is huge
balmy condor
im just malding cause I have no idea what blizz wants to do with SND
mellow pier
???
drifting cloud
nothing its just a template
shy dust
Have it for all specs
dusky vault
cast snd once per fight pog
mellow pier
this is how its always been for assassin
dusky vault
high skill lmao
shy dust
But sin just gets it passively
drifting cloud
and now they making it better for assa
balmy condor
smh
mellow pier
its literally been like this for almost ever
shut garnet
i havent played assa this tier but the idea of snd and no way to extend it like sub/outlaw do
rustic thunder
i mean
drifting cloud
because doing anything else requires too much brainpower for them to devote to a 3 dps spec
rustic thunder
cut to the chase sounds like a remedy tbh
mellow pier
????
balmy condor
and I disagreed with snd being passive back then too
mellow pier
it was in the game for years
rustic thunder
kinda